Afford Anything - How Dave Ramsey Taught His Kids About Money -- with Rachel Cruze

Episode Date: February 5, 2018

#115: Rachel Cruze was born the year her father, Dave Ramsey, filed for bankruptcy. During her childhood, she watched her parents transition from struggling and rebuilding from their bankruptcy, to becoming debt-free multimillionaires. Her dad went on to become the host of The Dave Ramsey Show, a money management radio show and podcast that reaches more than 12 million people per week. It’s central message is to budget carefully and avoid debt. Despite their success, the Ramseys committed to raising money-smart kids. They didn’t want their children to become lazy or entitled. Rachel paid for toys as a child. She partially paid for her car as a teenager. She worked throughout college. Rachel, now in her late 20’s, grew up to become an accomplished speaker and New York Times bestselling author. She and her father co-authored the book Smart Money, Smart Kids, which reached the number one spot on the NYTimes bestseller list. Her latest book, Love Your Life, Not Theirs, is also a mega-bestseller. In this episode, Rachel describes the lessons she learned about saving, spending, budgeting, debt and giving as the daughter of Dave Ramsey. We discuss “Instagram envy” -- the act of comparing your life to someone elses’ -- and how to avoid the traps of consumerism and materialism. Read the full show notes -- and download a FREE gratitude worksheet -- at http://affordanything.com/episode115 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You can afford anything but not everything. Every decision that you make is a trade-off against something else. And that's true, not just of your money, but also your time, your focus, your energy, anything in your life that's a scarce resource. And I don't say that to promote a scarcity mindset. I believe in abundance. But the fact of the matter is, there are trade-offs that you make with every decision. And so the questions become twofold. Number one, what's most important to you?

And number two, how do you align your day-to-day decisions and actions with the questions? those values. Answering those two questions is a lifetime practice. And that's what this podcast is here to explore. My name is Paula Pant. I am the host of the Afford Anything podcast. And today, we have an incredibly exciting episode. We have Rachel Cruz, the daughter of Dave Ramsey, on the show with us today. Now, Rachel Cruz was born the year that her father, Dave and her mom, Sharon, filed for bankruptcy. If probably most of you are familiar with Dave Ramsey, but if you're not, when Dave Ramsey was in his early 20s, he was a very successful real estate investor, but he was highly, highly leveraged. One day, when he was in his late 20s, the banks called his loans and he wasn't able to pay them back, so he had to file bankruptcy. His daughter, Rachel, who's on the show with us today, was born the same year that her dad filed for bankruptcy. And so throughout her life, she saw initially her parents try to rebuild. And then as she grew older, Dave became the host of the Dave Ramsey Show, which is a money management radio show and podcast that reaches over 12 million people every week.

And so she saw them go from bankruptcy to multi-millions of dollars. And what's interesting about her life is that because her parents had come from this background of getting in over their heads with debt and mismanaging money when they were in their 20s, they really committed to raising money smart kids. And so when Rachel was a kid, they made her save up and pay for her own toys when she was a teenager. They made her pay for her own car. They matched dollar for dollar the money that she saved for her car. So in this episode, Rachel talks about what she learned about money management as the daughter of Dave Ramsey. And she has now grown up to, she's now in her 20s and has grown up to become an accomplished public speaker and a New York Times bestselling author. She and her dad co-authored the book Smart Money, Smart Kids, which is all about how to raise money-smart children.

And she recently also released a book called Love Your Life, Not Theirs, which is all about not comparing yourself to others. So we chat about all of that in this upcoming podcast without any further delay. Here's Rachel Cruz. Hi, Rachel. How are you? I'm good. How are you? I'm excellent. Good. Well, I'd like to talk about your childhood.

and the lessons that you learned about money from an early age. Yeah, well, growing up as Dave Ramsey's kid, I kid a lot of questions of like, what was that like? And, you know, the childhood philosophy, I guess you could say that we lived by. So yeah, this is definitely a topic of conversation. A lot of people are curious in for sure. So I know that to get started, I know that you were paid a commission for the chores that you did rather than getting an allowance.

Did you, especially when you were very young, Did you understand that distinction? Yeah, I think so because there was such a consequence. If you didn't do the chore, you didn't get paid. And so that was the idea of the commission allowance. You're just handed money with commission. If you work, you get paid. If you don't work, you don't get paid.

And so when we didn't get paid, there was definitely a consequence to that of like, dang it, we didn't do the chore. But yeah, because I did have some friends and their parents just hands about money all the time. And we weren't really in that type of setting, if you will, in mom and dad's parenting style. So I think the only reason I would have figured out that it was different is just comparing it to what my friends, you know, were given and what they did. I will say, though, as mom and dad implemented this from very early on, this was normal for

us, right? It wasn't like they went from this idea of giving us money constantly. And then finally we're like, no, now we're doing it the commission system, which some parents do have to do that because of what they had done previously. So we just started from the beginning, really, with this system. And so I think that helps too, because that was normal, if you will, versus trying to change it. Were you ever jealous of your other friends whose parents just handed them an allowance? Oh, yeah.

Yes, it's like, oh, man, it was, especially as a kid, you're like, man, that would be nice. And especially as we got to be older and teenagers and actually life began a little bit more expensive. Yeah, I was like, that would be nice not to have to work and just be given money. You really don't appreciate those values, I feel like, until a little bit later in life. How young were you when you started receiving commissions? We teach parents that you can start as young as three years old, doing that very, very age-appropriate things with your kids and the chores that they do. But for us, honestly, mom and dad, I'm trying to think how old I was.

So I was born the year mom and dad filed for bankruptcy. That, you know, it took obviously a couple of years to really get out of that and get back on stable ground. So I think when I was little, you know, two, three years old, they weren't really thinking about, oh, well, we could teach our kids commission and not allowance. You know, they were like trying to put food on the table. So for me, it probably really wasn't until maybe I was four or five. I was young because I remember being little and even the dog food container. We had to feed the dog was one of the chores, you know, not being able to open it on my own and that kind of thing, you know, so I was relatively young. I guess it was probably around four or five, maybe even six, but around that age.

Nice. Did you start giving right away? I mean, I've read your stories about putting a dollar in the church envelope, but were there other causes that you started giving to as a young kid? No, we really just did church because it was, I guess, mom and dad always taught. And what I believe today, I would agree with them for sure, of just the tithe, right? The first. And so as a kid, you don't really have a ton anyways to begin with. So that was probably one of the reasons, you know, it was just a dollar, right? We didn't have like a hundred bucks a week to make well, we'll spread the wealth. So I think probably just giving to the church, honestly, was a little bit more of a spiritual discipline, probably convenience because we were there every week. And so that was an easy principle to implement. And really, I think when you get down to it, teaching your kids to give, that's just the muscle in general you want to build. You know, you're not really on a monetary standpoint. You know that your kid's dollar a week is not going to change the world. You know what I mean?

Like, yes, it's great. And it'll build up over time, yada, yada, absolutely. But at the end of the day, you're really teaching your kids that lesson. And so no matter where they give, they're learning that lesson. So for us, we were learning that lesson at that one specific place. And then the older we got, mom and dad started involving us and their giving, which was really cool. And so they would give to multiple different organizations. So we got to be a part of that, not only watching them, you know, give that money, but being involved with some of those organizations, which was great, because it just forms this really strong foundation, I would say, with this topic of giving. And, and again, the whole idea that it's normal. Like the younger you start your kids on this, it becomes a part of

their life, it becomes part of who they are. And so now with an adult giving for my husband and I both, it's a priority. And we give to different places a lot of times anonymously, which is cool as well. And so being able to do that kind of thing is something that I'm so thankful that I was taught early on because it really just became a habit in my life and a part of who I am. And so for that it's huge. So there's encouragement to you parents out there listening that even if it is just to one place and you're doing it out of that consistency. That's huge, even that. How old were you when you started kind of branching off and choosing your own organizations or your own causes that you wanted to support? I'd like to say, Paula, I was 12. I'm a really good

kid. No. No, honestly, really not until after college when I started, you know, making a salary and you know, getting a full-time job and Winston and I got married. And yeah, so it was really more in in adulthood, that young adult phase. Because in college, I mean, I didn't have a ton anyways. So yeah, for me, it was branching out more than just the church. It was after college. Now, I know in terms of major purchases that you say for, we'll talk about the bright yellow Nissan Xera in just a moment. But when you were a kid, were there any quote unquote major purchases? Yeah, well, when you're a kid, obviously, your money limit, if you will, goes down a little bit right it's just not as expensive so to a major purchase to a kid it's going to be a whole lot

smaller monetarily than when you're a teenager or an adult so yeah i mean i remember gosh as a kid it was either like a great piece of clothing like a jacket you know that i really wanted to buy or a Barbie doll i remember that one time an american girl doll i saved up for so those kind of things yeah we definitely had our little goals and and say for those things and it wasn't you know this obsessive subject matter that we talked about all the time and everything you're doing was working towards saving up for that thing. It was just really in the ebb and flow of life of what mom and dad did with this whole subject of teaching us about money, but even that part specifically, it was like more probably around the conversations of we were at Target and I saw a Barbie I wanted and it's like, oh, I want

that. And mom was like, okay, well, you can save up for it. Okay, I can. And then a few weeks later, you go and buy it. You know, so it was a very almost casual way of going about it versus more of like a hard and a strict rule. That was when I was younger. And then, the older we got, the more expensive the things that we wanted. And so obviously that took a lot more intentionality and a little bit more focus. When we were a little, it was probably a little bit more flippant, if you will, but still something that we did. I mean, Mom and Dad didn't hand us everything. And they're like, well, if you want that, you can do some chores and save up and pay for it. As you got older, you decided that you wanted to save up for a bright yellow Xtera.

The most obnoxious car on the planet. No offense to anyone that has a yellow Xtera. Actually, when I first read that, I could immediately visualize it. And I thought, oh, that would be kind of pretty, maybe. Yeah, that was my goal. My heart was set on it for sure. Yeah, that was one role. Mom and Dad, they had for us as teenagers. And they told us very early on they were not going to pay for our cars when we turned 16,

that we had to save up and pay for them. But what they did is we had to pay half of it. So whatever we saved up, they would match it. And Dad called that his 401-Dave plan. So the matching was, yeah, it was a big deal for sure, which was a huge blessing. I know everyone's able to do that, but that was a great motivator to think, okay, if I save $20, that's $40 going to my car. You know, it kind of gives you that extra boost.

And so, yeah, yeah, the story you were saying, I was wanting that yellow X Terra. And we actually went and test drove. I think I wrote that in the book. And I didn't really like it. After I drove it, I was like, oh, it's just not as like smooth and nice as I was thinking it was going to drive like and signed it up with something different. but that saving it was huge. You ended up with a BMW.

That seemed like a fancy choice for a teenager. I know it sounds fancy. It was used. It was like 10 years old or something. So it was definitely nothing brand new. But it was great though because not only did I get actually a nice car, which it lasted me through college, but it was something, you know, it could have been a Honda Civic or that one. But you take pride in it, especially as a 16-year-old kid when you work that hard for all those years

and watch your little savings account grow and grow and grow. grow in that moment you have to write the check and be like, oh, wow, I'm going to spend all my money that I saved up for. You know, I had that thought for about 0.2 seconds. And I was like, I'm 16. I get a car. This is great. It was such a good lesson in life. I mean, it really, really was. It was definitely more intentional and goalworthy versus the Barbie, you know, we just talked about. But it was, but something I can look back on and it helped going through that process, not only financially and having to put money away, but the patience you learned, again, the pride you took in it and taking care of it. I mean, all of it was wrapped up into that purchase of that first car. So that was

a really smart move on my parents' part, I think, looking back. As an adult, certainly looking back, you can see the wisdom and the values in the way that your parents structured that. As a teenager, how did you feel about it? You know, I don't remember being overly, like, upset. I remember thinking, you know, oh, that'd been nice just to be given a car for sure. But there was, I mean, I think when you get to be teenagers, I was going to say there's a level of maturity. Some parents are like, my teenager has no maturity. What are you talking about? But there is a level of adulthood that you, if you do give your kids different responsibilities, they start to feel and understand. So I think there was for sure, part of me is the normal, probably cliche teenager that was like, man, I don't want to do this. I don't want to work. I'd rather be given the car. But then there's another part of me that I did look at my friends who were just given cars and the way they, you know, their attitude towards it a little bit and the way they treated it. I do remember having the thought like, wow, that was not fun to work all those hours and do that, but I'm glad I did. There was that part of me that that had that for sure. So it wasn't a full on tantrum by any means pushing back against it. It would

have been nice to been given the car. But I remember having that feeling of like, I'm kind of glad that I got to do that. You know, it just feels good. And I hate to say it too, especially since it was a BMW and being Dave Ramsey's kid, that could have been easily labeled like on my forehead. Okay, of course, you know, your dad gave you BMW, you know, that thought where I could say in confidence, no, I worked and paid for half of that. You know, even that felt great to be able to combat any stereotypical label that was put on me. I was able to really say, no, I did this. And that was great. In your book, you mentioned that you overdrafted your bank account when you were 15. Yes.

First of all, I'm assuming the car savings was in maybe a savings account. It was. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. That was not in the checking account, for sure. Can you tell us that story about that morning in the office with the bank manager when you had to apologize? Yes. I laughed so hard when I read that. I know. This was, yeah, this was a day I probably will never forget. I came home originally and there was a letter sitting on the counter in our kitchen. I was 15 at the time. I had had my own checking account. Mom and dad gave us a checking account when we turned 15, and they would put a certain amount of money in it that what they would normally spend. This account, we were supposed to budget it and keep it on track. And any money that we wanted

for, you know, wanted more money, we had to go get jobs or babysit, do whatever. And so this account, I was supposed to, of course, have it reconciled and all of that. And I didn't. I mean, I'm a free spirit, not great at details anyway. So I was flippant for sure with that. And about three months after having the account, I opened up this letter in the kitchen and it was from the bank. And it was all these words like over withdrawal. These words I had never even seen before

and at the bottom of the letter, I finally realized that I had bounced three checks, which is not great for anyone, especially being Davey MC's kid. That was not fun. And I remember thinking, oh my gosh, I'm going to die. Like, he's going to kill me.

I told my mom and I showed her and she was like, okay, well, we all make mistakes, but you need to make sure to tell your dad when he gets home. And I remember prepping myself thinking, oh, gosh, this is the end. You know, like he's going to be so mad and he's going to yell. And you just don't know the reaction. It was like, oh, no, oh, no, he's going to be so mad at me. And he got home from work that night. And I told him what had happened. And I remember he just calmly was just nodding and looked at me and said, okay, well, in the morning, you're going to have to wake up and

make an appointment with the bank branch manager and go down and in person apologize to him for line because you told him you had money in his bank to spend and you didn't and that's a lie. I was like, what? You want me to do what? And I couldn't even drive to the bank. I was only 15 and I remember walking through the glass doors of the bank and didn't even know where to go. My mom had dropped me off and I think I went up to the teller at first and I was like,

are you the branch manager? And she was like, no, I'm the teller, but his office is down the hall and to the right. And yeah, I remember walking in and sitting down in this big leather chair. And he told me actually, which is even funny. I can't remember if I wrote this part in the book. But he even said, like, Rachel, you know, this is Ramsey. I just want to tell you that I think your dad is such an inspiration and how he helps millions of people every day on the radio show be responsible with money and like all this stuff. And I was thinking, oh, my gosh, no.

And finally I had to tell him. I was like, you know, I'm here to apologize to you for lying because I told you I had money in your baked to spend it I didn't and I bounce three checks and here's the letter I got and all this stuff. You know, I was freaking out and I'm really kind of laughed. It was like, okay. And he actually waived my overdraft fees. So that was very nice of him. But yeah, it was quite, quite a moment for sure. Was your goal going into the meeting to get him to waive the overdraft fees? Or were you just no, I didn't even know they could do that. But I was like, oh, okay. Thank you. That's less money I have to pay now. No, it was, yeah, that was definitely just a sugar on top of a great day.

This may sound like a silly question, but when your dad told you that you had to go and apologize to the branch manager, yeah, I mean, a lot of people bounce checks and they don't do that. So the question is, why did you obey him? Because I had to, Paul. We're definitely in the group of the household that what your parents said you did for sure. Yeah, that was not a request. That was an absolute that had to done. So yeah, I didn't really have much of a choice, I don't think. And honestly, when you're 15, you don't know. I mean, like, it's, you know, it's intimidating going to this guy's office, but, like, I didn't really understand, you know, the magnitude of what a branch manager was. I didn't know people bounce. It's kind of like, you, I mean, I really didn't have the full grasp.

Now, I think it would almost be more embarrassing to go down there. It's almost I was a little bit oblivious, which is probably a good thing. Yeah, I guess when a 15-year-old does it, it's cute. Yeah, right. I think so. I think that probably, dad probably knew what he was doing. He'll get a good laugh. We'll come back to the show in just a second. But first, are you happy with your bank? Are you getting the most from your money? Look, it's 2018.

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No, we were not perfect in life by any means. We could probably have a whole other podcast on those mistakes we made as teenagers. Yeah, but with money, we really didn't. And I think, you know, it wasn't the brainwashing of mom and dad. I think they really showed us, especially when we went to college, how. you live life without a credit card and how you really don't need one, right? I mean, if what you learn is how to live within your means and this is what you have and it's almost this absolute in your mind that a credit card's not even an option and here's the money I have every

month and here's how I'm going to budget it. Here's how I'm going to deal with it. If I need more, I go to work. Like for us, it just, yeah, I think for all of us, because none of us went out and got credit cards and loans because we knew how to handle our money and we knew what to do. And we weren't perfect. We made mistakes. But it was never this, I never had an itch really. to have a credit card. Honestly, the one time I remember thinking it would be so nice just to go get a loan is when Winston and I had our first house and we couldn't furnish half of it. I mean, we had like a kitchen table and a couch and a bedroom suit, but that was about it. I mean, we were not able to really furnish the house like we wanted to. And I do remember at that point thinking, oh, it would be so

nice just go down to the furniture store and be able to get everything we want. You know, that was a little bit enticing, but we didn't. And obviously I knew the effects of what debt would do. So, so yeah, overall, neither any of us. All three of us, I don't think, really had that rebellion stage to go get the credit card or the car loan. In what ways did you rebel? Like, there must have been something. Money-wise or life-wise. Oh, either. Yeah. Oh, I mean, yeah, I think we all went through a little bit of a of a phase, right, as teenagers or in college where it was like, okay, well, I'm going to test this out and see what this is like. And thankfully, all of our rebellious stages with friends and that kind of thing, that's kind of what I'm talking about. It didn't last very long. We all, I think we, I think all three of us

had a little bit of that high school rebellion phase, but it didn't last long. And, and that was probably the spiritual grounding of us, honestly, growing up with faith being a huge part and experiencing a relationship with Jesus early on. When you sway from that, there definitely is that empty void that you feel. And I remember feeling that for sure in my own story through high school after a little bit of like a rebellious year thinking, God, I'm just so empty. Like this is not when I feel like life is a out. And so because of that, I, yeah, I definitely straightened up a little bit more and kind of got that out of my system, if you will, a little bit of that rebellious stage. But those choices in life, I came back and was more grounded, more of a spiritual, on the spiritual side, for sure.

What made you decide to start following in your dad's footsteps in terms of a career? And what have your brother and sister chosen to do? Yes. So for me, I started speaking and traveling with dad when I was a teenager. So when I was in high school, starting my sophomore year, I would travel and speak and did like a kid's product pitch before one of the breaks at the events. And so I would get a cut of everything I made at the book table. Anything I sold back there, I would get a commission on. And so that was really my job through the later part of my high school days. And it was so fun. And I remember I loved speaking. It was something I really, really enjoyed doing. I obviously knew the money message and realize the need for this message when I went to college and I saw friends

and peers that I was meeting, you know, have student loan debt and credit card debt already and all this stuff. And I were thinking, oh, my gosh, these decisions, these are going to haunt you for years to come. Like, you're not only creating really bad habits now, but the price that you're going to pay for the student loan and for the credit cards, it's just such, you know, it's such a bad road to go down financially. I just remember keep thinking that. And I had so, many people come up to me at these events when I was in high school and they would say, if only I knew this when I was younger, like if only I had done something differently with my money when I was younger and I had known, my life would look different. And so I remember looking

at my college friends and thinking, oh, the mistakes you're making are huge because if you just did things differently today, your whole future would be different. And so that need for the message really kind of steamed my passion for it, if you will. And so when I graduated college, I was like, okay, if I love to speak and I love this message, I want to go to high schools and colleges and really talk to students about this. And so I did that for a number of years. And as I, you know, grew up and, you know, got older and married and kids, my message has kind of changed with me and really what season of life I'm in, which I'm grateful for because it's so fun to talk about things that I'm doing in real life too, you know. And so being able to talk to parents and

talk to women my age about life and what does it look like to take a ticket? vacation, do it on a budget or grocery shop effectively, all of that. So it's been really fun. I think I found my niche a little bit in the same vein as the money conversation that my dad has all the time, but a little bit with my own spin, a little bit more of a lifestyle bent and delivered in a little bit of a different way. I think dad's a little bit more of the hardcore uncle you may have, and I'm your friend. I'm like, I'm going to lock arms with you. We're going to walk. Dad's like, that's stupid. Stop doing that. Which we love him for that. like, let's serve it because it's him. So, yeah, it's kind of my story of what I did. And mom and dad were

great with all three of us. I mean, they told us over and over and over, do not get involved in this company if you don't want to be here because you're going to be miserable. We're going to be miserable. Everyone around you's going to be miserable. If you do work, quote unquote, just because it's the family business. And so they really pushed us that if you're going to be part of it, it has to be a calling on your life and it's something much bigger than you. And if you stop liking it and enjoying it, then we need to figure out a conversation for you to leave because it's not worth, you know, risking your family relationship or people around you to be in it and be miserable. So they've been really great at that. They really gave us the freedom. There was no pressure to join. If

anything, me joining, I was the first one to come on the team and I'm her dad having a conversation with me. He was like, okay, if you're going to do this, you're going to have to work 10 times as hard as everyone else because the name Ramsey is attached to you and people are going to assume that you're going to be given handouts. And so you're starting below grounds. Like you have to work your way up and prove yourself. And so it almost was harder to take a job within the company versus just going and doing my, you know, something else. And so I was the first one to join. And my brother came along about four years later after he graduated college. And he started working here. And he started out working with our radio department, our media team selling radio ads for the Dave Ramsey show.

And then transitions out of that, I guess about a year or two ago. and it's heading up a department within our financial peace university department. And he's working on the individual channel. So when people buy a kit, you know, on their own versus through a church. And so he's working on that direct-to-consumer channel and killing it. I mean, he's totally revamped it and has a great team in place doing that. So he's doing that. And then my older sister, Denise, actually runs, she's not part of Ramsey Solutions,

but she works with mom and dad and runs our family foundation. And so we were talking about giving earlier. So all of mom and dad's giving now is very formalized, I think more for tax purposes and all of that into a foundation. And so she runs that. So all of mom and dad's giving that we do as a family, we do it every year. We have a quote unquote board meeting and decide what nonprofits we're giving to and all of that out of the family foundation. And so it's her job from there to take it and to check up on all the places we're giving to, making sure they're being run and things are effective and all of that. So yeah, we're all kind of working in our strengths, which is so fun.

And it's really been a huge blessing. We'll return to the show in just a moment. If you've been listening to this podcast for a while, you've probably heard me talk about my weight changes. So I've lost 25 pounds, which was great. And then I gained back 10 of them, which is not so great. And now, fingers crossed, hopefully I will lose those 10 again. So we'll see. But the result is that my clothing sizes have changed a lot.

lot. And I'm 5 foot one. So 10 pounds on a 5 foot one frame is a definite difference in sizes. And so that's why I've really enjoyed using Litoat. Litoat is a service that delivers a box of clothes to your doorstep. They've got high quality clothes, lots of variety. You wear it for as long as you'd like, and then you send it back and they'll send you new stuff. So because of them, I've been able to avoid buying clothes, particularly as my weight has been changing. And I think for people who need maternity wear, it's a particularly great option. Because if your size is going to be changing rapidly, then why bother having a closet full of stuff that no longer fits? If you want to try them out, go to litote.com. That's L-E-O-T-O-T-E dot com to get started. And enter promo code

Paula at checkout to get 50% off your first month. From there, you'll get a completely customized tote. You'll wear it all. And when you're done, return the rest in the mail. And they'll start preparing your next toad immediately. So again, that's litote, L-E-O-T-O-T-E dot com, and intercode Paula, P-A-U-L-A at checkout to get 50% off of your first month. This is totally a hypothetical, but what would you do if you had a child who one day at the age of 20 or 25 called you and said, I have a confession, I'm in a bunch of debt? I'm like, dang it? What household have you been living in, kid? Oh, man. And I mean, if they're an adult now and if they're on their own, now if they're under my roof still and I'm still paying for college or we're still supporting them because they're that age, then there's going to be fierce consequences for sure. I mean, that would be much more of a parenting role, if you will.

What would those fierce consequences look like? Oh, gosh, I'd have to talk to my husband. I think we'd have to be like, what? And I put that in the vein, not just because we hate credit cards and debt, but it would be like if they're making any other decisions in life that are not good for them. If they're being unwise, there are going to be consequences. And if you're going to play by our rules and if we're going to help you get through college and help still support you, then you are going to have, you know, I mean,

I'd say, quote unquote, obey rules, but we are going to expect you to, to use your lifestyle as one that is glorifying to the Lord. And if you don't, then we're not going to be able to support that financially. I'm going to love you. We're going to hang out. I mean, you know, but we will not be able to support you financially if you're going to choose to live a life that we don't agree with. And that's under anything.

I mean, if you're doing heroin, we're not going to support that. You know what I'm saying? Like, it's things that we do not deem as being wise for your life because we love you. And that's not going to be something that we're going to support. And so that would be more of the conversation if we're still financially supporting them. But if they're out over our roof and they are making their, they're married and they're doing their thing, and that's what they choose to do, and that's what they choose to do. I mean, there's only so much there. If they come and ask us for advice and help, we will be there

with open arms and lovingly give that to them. But I will try hopefully to be the parent. And I think my parents did a really great job at those of transitioning your kids from parenting them, right, when they're like under your roof versus as an adult now, you know, now I have my own family and they really transitioned our relationship really healthily where they do not tell us what to do by any means. You know, if we ask, they still even hesitate giving advice. That's always like, well, what do you think you should do? I'm like, well, I'm asking you. What do you think? They really give us a whole lot of space to live our lives. And if we made really bad decisions in life that affected our family in a negative way, I think they'd be really, really sad, you know, just like a friend would be almost.

And so I would hope that's how we treat. We have two girls now. And so, if they came out one day and said, you know, this is what we did, I'd be like, man, well, that's your life. And you get to reap the consequences of that decision as an adult. And you reap what you sew, you know, and if that's what you choose to do, then that's what she choose to do. But hopefully we'll get them in a place where they know that they don't need that. And, and, you know, this whole conversation, you have to see, debt is not a sin to me. It's not a salvation issue by any means. I don't think you, if you have a student loan, I believe you can enter the gates of heaven. You can still, you know, move on.

But I just, I just believe it's unwise. So that's what I would, that's what I would tell them. But I'm not a parenting expert, Paula. And I have a two and a half year old. So these are conversations. That is way hypothetical. Ask me in 20 years. It could be a 100% different answer.

But if it were today, I think that's what I would do. Let's talk about dealing with Instagram envy. Oh, yes. Oh, man. Isn't it horrible? Do you have Instagram? I am obsessed with Instagram. Oh my gosh.

I am too. It's my favorite social media channel right now. But it's tough, isn't it? I mean, man, you see all the pictures of friends and family and even people you don't know. I mean, half the people I follow, I've never even met them in person. Oh, yeah. The majority of people I follow, I've never met in person. Yeah, totally, totally.

Oh, man. So it is. It's a tough thing social media in general. I mean, because you are getting a picture into everyone's life. and it's usually the highlight reel. It's usually the best part of their life that you're seeing. And so it's very, very easy to get sucked into that world and be like, oh, wow, everyone has a great life. And here I am in my pajamas at 8.30 on a Tuesday night doing nothing.

You know what I mean? And you're like, man, I want that vacation or I want that nice thing. I want to go out to dinner more. And it does it. It kind of sucks you in. And so you have to be careful with making sure that you know that what you're comparing your life to is, in a sense, make believe. because you have no idea what's going on beyond that picture. You have no idea the debt possibly that was accrued to go on that vacation. I mean, you just don't know the real story behind everything. And so you just have to be careful that you can enjoy it and have fun with it. But if it starts to be the center of your world, like it's very dangerous because you start living in other people's world and not your own. How do you deal with those feelings when they arise, the feelings of envy, the feelings of want?

Yeah, I think there's kind of two camps. So there's the one in a good way that makes you reach for more, that you say, oh, wow, I'm comparing my life to this, but hey, that's what I'm shooting for. You know, maybe someone became debt-free or whatever it is. And it's like, yes, like that's what I want to do. And it gives you a good motivation to go towards something. But then there's the bad. I mean, there's the jealousy and the envy, like you said. And I heard a great definition that jealousy is wanting what someone else has. But envy is almost worse. because envy is that you want something that someone else has and you can't have it, so you don't want them to have it. It's almost like you look at that picture like, oh, I just wish they, you get envious of that person completely. And so you just have to watch for that spirit for sure because after a well, if that gets rooted in you, it can be very dangerous to just your health emotionally, right? I mean, just your contentment.

I mean, you suddenly live in this almost depressive state that your life is just not good enough. And if it gets to a point that's bad like that, I'm like, cut it off, delete it, get away from it for a while. But something that I've done to kind of just monitor it is it's looking at my own life and really being grateful. Gratitude is such a powerful, powerful thing in your life if you really hold on to that and grateful for what you have and what you've been given and everything. And it's a sense of contentment out of that and being able to really enjoy the life that you have. And that doesn't mean that you can't have goals and you can't shoot for more. and all of that, which is so good and so true, but really being happy. And so I, on a very,

very tactical level, started on my phone a gratitude list. And so I would write two things a day that I was grateful for. So I have this long list now of all this stuff that I'm grateful for. So if that creeps in and I get in that funk, you know, for a day or two, I'm like, I honestly, I just hit that list. And I'm like, oh, my gosh, this is, this is my life. Like I have so much to be grateful for. And so gratitude is something that really, really helps me kind of get out of that cycle. How do you honestly distinguish between what you yourself want and what the society or the media or keeping up what the Joneses or Instagram makes you think you want?

Yeah, that's a great question. I would think it probably depends on the person, honestly, because your goals and what you're driving towards are going to be, you know, within your family, right, and what you value. some people don't value paying off a house early, right? They're okay with a 30-year mortgage. That's what they don't value that. Where others, they do in getting out of debt is something that's big and part of their plan. And so a lot of it is going to be what you and your family value.

But I think that society definitely gives us options, right? They show us what you can have and all this stuff. And so it probably is more of your personality and what drives you. For some people, you know, going to a job that maybe they don't make a lot of money, but they love it day and day. It's their passions, what they wanted to do. They hope to make more of the future, but they're good with that. Where other people are more utilitarian, they're like, hey, it's not a job I'm like crazy

about, but I make great money and I'm going to stay in it because with that money I'm able to go on a great vacation with my family every year, you know, whatever it is. So it's probably a sense of family values and also your personality and what drives you. Has there ever been a time in your life where you've kind of conflated the two, chased after something only later to realize that it was somebody else's dream? I think more so on like a materialistic level. Like I'm trying to think specifically like a purse or something that I've always wanted or a pair of shoes and it's like you get it.

And it's great but it does not fulfill, you know, that phrase, oh, I'll just be happy if like if I just had this, it would be great. And do you realize stuff is just stuff and it's fun and you can enjoy it but it does not give you that satisfaction like you think it does. And I've been saying this for years now. I mean, I had a whole part on a part of my talk, my main keynote I would do when I would go to colleges in high schools early on. Like, like, I've talked about this for years and years. And I'll tell you, Paul, I, there was still, there was a brand of shoe. I'll just tell you this. You may think I'm the most shallow person in the world. But there's a brand of shoe that I always, I've wanted for so long.

And I remember for the last four years, like, oh, if I could just have a pair of those, if I could just have a pair of those. And I remember I got, you know, I wrote my first book. And, and, got my first commission check from it and it was great and nice and I was like I could go buy them but I can't I can't spend that money I mean I just for so long was this tug of like I wanted but I don't I do and I finally got a pair after my second girl was bored my husband actually ordered them for me which was amazing I was like I didn't even know you knew what these were but yeah but he gave me these pair of shoes and I thought like that's it like all my dreams was going through because there is that pair of shoes right there and it's so funny because that was

that would have been early August, late July, and it's been six months now. And I'm like, I think I've worn him a couple of times, but my life hasn't changed, right? I mean, like, you kind of get that sobering thought of like, God, we can get so wrapped up in that thing. And I wasn't like overly obsessed with it by any means. But I just, I'm just thinking, oh, that would just be great to have. And it's nice to have and I'm glad I have them. But it just doesn't. It does not satisfy you like you think it does. And again, I'm preaching to the choir because I say it to myself all the time. And I teach people this subject, but sometimes I have to live it out personally again and get that refresher of, yep, it's just stuff. It's just stuff. But it's fun.

And they're cute shoes. So I'm not mad that I have. Before we wrap up, the final question is you've lived in the public spotlight for most of your life. You know, and you've been giving speeches since you were a teenager, how do you deal with public criticism or people who, not even criticism, but just people who misunderstand you? Like, how do you develop the internal strength and fortitude and thick skin to cope with that? Yes. Well, early on, I was probably a little bit more interested in what they had to say. So I would like read every comment. If there was a blog post that went up or a face, you know, I would read the comment. comments and I just, you know, I kind of, not indulged in it, but I really like, I focused on it to a

degree. And now I'm like, it's not that I ignore it, but I kind of do, unless it's just in my face obvious right there and I see it, then I'm like, oh, okay, well, that's not nice. What are you going to do? You know, there's a little bit that definitely brushes it off, but I don't see a ton of it and not because I want to just be numb to it, but I don't have time. Really, I'm like, I'm in meetings all day or I'm traveling or if I'm home, I'm with my girls and and I'm like I don't have time to go through every comment or focus on every little thing. And so even on Amazon, right? Like my books aren't there and I know I have one star reviews, but I don't read them. And I don't even read the five star. Like I just stopped in the habit

of reading Amazon reviews because I'm like, okay, if the book is out there, I feel confident in it. I know it works. I know it helps people. And it's a message that people do connect with. Because when I see people, they are complimentary of it. And so I'm like, okay, it's going to help people. And if there's a, you know, 20 or 30, there could be 100. I don't even know. Maybe I may have more one-star reviews than five-star. Hopefully that's not the case. But I just don't know. I mean, I really don't, I don't look for it, if you will. And it helps, it just helps my attitude too, right? I mean, when you sit there and read bad stuff about you all the time, it's not a very fun place. Yeah. So I'm like, I just don't, yeah, I don't really waste my time. And if something really is bad,

my team, someone brings it up, right? And like, hey, FYI, this article did not go over will. and here's the pushback we're getting yada yada and I'm like okay well maybe that was my fault and some of the content or maybe people just don't like what I have to say and that's okay too so it's good just to kind of get engaged but I feel like I have a little bit of a of people between me and stuff that's posted all the time just to kind of either delete comments sometimes that they're nasty really really really nasty or good learning lessons of things that just didn't connect or the way things were worded were wrong and and we'll fix that next time Is there anything that I haven't asked about that you'd like to emphasize?

You know, this whole topic of money, I think for some people, you know, whether we're talking about kids or teenagers or even in your own life, it can be intimidating and sometimes overwhelming. And so just to give people the hope and the encouragement that no matter where you are financially, if you're a living paycheck to paycheck or you have a million dollars in your 401K, no matter where you are, you can do this. You can be intentional with your money. you can change your family tree, help your kids have a better life than you, and really get a tackle and a handle on this subject that so many people are hopeless about. And so that hope is there. And that's

what I would just encourage people that when you're intentional with your money and you point it towards things that are going to better you, like getting out of debt and saving up for retirement or an emergency fund, these things are going to help. And it's going to give you the control back that you may feel like you've lost. Thank you, Rachel. I really enjoyed this. And I'm so grateful to you for agreeing to come on the show and for spending this time with me. Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, thanks, Paula. I really appreciate it. This was so fun. What an awesome interview. What are some of the key takeaways that came from this? Here are three lessons that stood out to me. Lesson number one, you value things more when you work for them.

When everything is handed to you, you don't necessarily appreciate it. But if you have to work for something, it's likely that you'll appreciate it more. You'll take better care. of it, you'll understand what went into acquiring that thing. Part of me is the normal, probably cliche teenager that was like, man, I don't want to do this. I don't want to work. I'd rather be given the car. But then there's another part of me that I did look at my friends who were just given cars and the way they, their attitude towards it a little bit and the way they treated it.

I do remember having the thought like, wow, that was not fun to work all those hours and do that, but I'm glad I did. Takeaway lesson. There's dignity and pride that comes with working for work. your accomplishments. If you're a parent, that means allow your kids to have the dignity and pride and appreciation that comes from working for some of the things that they buy, whether that's Barbie dolls or Transformers or PlayStation or cars. And if you are currently in your 20s and you're kind of looking around and seeing, wait, I've got all these friends who their parents bought them a car

or their parents paid for their wedding. You know, if you're looking at, around and you're seeing other friends who were handed stuff and you're feeling that Instagram envy, you're feeling a little bit jealous of the fact that you didn't get that. Don't worry, because that means that when you save up and are able to buy the thing, whether that thing is paying for your wedding or buying your first vehicle that's not a complete clunker, like, whatever that thing is, you'll probably appreciate it a lot more. You'll probably enjoy it a lot more. So that's lesson number one. You value things more when you work for them. Lesson number two, beware of the, oh, I'll just be happy if pitfall.

It's easy to look around at all of the things that we don't have and convince ourselves, oh, I'll just be happy if dot, dot, dot, dot. Like a purse or something that I've always wanted or a pair of shoes and it's like you get it. And it's great, but it does not fulfill, you know, that phrase, oh, I'll just be happy if. Like if I just had this, it would be great. And do you realize stuff is just stuff? And by the way, this doesn't just apply to stuff. This also applies to experiences.

So it can be tempting to think, oh, I'll just be happy if I get to go travel the world. Oh, I'll just be happy if I get to leave this terrible job that I don't like. Certainly, those things might be the right decision. And certainly you should still work for them. But don't forget that no matter where you go and no matter what you do, you're always still with you. And developing an inner sense of contentment, an inner sense of happiness is something that you can do no matter what job you have, no matter what income you have, no matter how much debt you're in, or how stressful your life is right now, that sense of inner

peace and contentment is not necessarily something that comes naturally. It's something that you might have to work on and you might have to put effort into cultivating. But that effort is very worthwhile because while you should strive for better outward circumstances, there's absolutely nothing wrong with pursuing goals. In fact, pursuing goals is to be applauded. Don't delay your sense of happiness or don't defer your happiness to some external benchmark. So that is lesson number two. Beware the, oh, well, just be happy if pitfall. And then lesson number three is to practice gratitude as the antidote to wanting more. It's easy to look around.

Rachel and I chatted about Instagram envy. It's very easy to look around and look at the highlight reel of other people's lives and interpret that to mean that your life is somehow lacking. But let's not forget, if you have the electricity to be able to listen to this podcast, if you have access to food and clean drinking water, and you're in relatively good health, you've got a lot to be grateful for. And so focus on those things because the more that you think about what you have to be grateful for, number one, the happier you'll be. And number two, the less you will want more.

One of the, I think, most effective ways to get out of this loop of just wanting more and more and more is the practice of gratitude. And again, that might not come naturally. That might not be the native thoughts that pop into your head. It's a practice. I, on a very, very tactical level, started on my phone a gratitude list. And so I would write two things a day that I was grateful for. I think that's a fantastic idea. That's a great practice to get into as part of your morning or evening routine. And so if you would like a free template, a free worksheet where you can write down things that you're grateful for,

we've actually designed one and we're giving them away for free at the show notes, which are available at afford anything.com slash episode one, one, five. That's episode 115. So that's where you can get the show notes for today's episode, as well as a free downloadable template that has you fill out your favorite moment of the day and two things that you're grateful for. Totally free, print out as many as you'd like,

and then have that on your bedside table so that you remember every morning to write that down first thing in the morning when you wake up or last thing at night before you go to bed. Again, that's afford anything.com slash episode 115, episode 115. Finally, the last thing that I would want to say is giving is gratitude in action. Rachel and I started this interview discussing giving.

It's something that's very important to her and something that's also very important to me. And one of the reasons that I believe so strongly in it is not just, of course, for the obvious fact that it does a lot of good for a lot of other people, but giving is also good for the giver. It's a way that you can remind yourself that you don't need more. It's an exercise in gratitude. And to the extent that gratitude is the antidote to wanting more, giving, I believe, is an exercise in frugality. And speaking of which, I have really good news. So we have raised so far, the Afford Anything community has raised $1,316 for charity water. Charity Water is an organization that provides clean drinking water to people around the world.

We had the founder, Scott Harrison, on the show at episode 107. And as many of you know, we are in the process of launching the Afford Anything store where we'll be selling T-shirts, coffee mugs, various other merchandise, and 100% of the profits from that store are going to be donated to Charity Water. Now, the store is not up yet. But in the meantime, before the store has even launched, we have already raised $1,316, which I think is fantastic. That's great news given the fact that the store's not even up yet, and these donations have already come in. So I want to thank all of the donors. Jessica Brunsfold, Stephanie Kibler, Anonymous, Caitlin Randall, Michelle Ann Conn, John Michael, Rich Carey, Jim Wang, Roxanna Pfeer, and Michelle Con. Thank you so much.

To everyone who's donated, once the store is up and running, I'm happy to send you some merchandise for free. Just email us and we'll hook it up. anybody else who is interested in supporting Charity Water through our efforts, you can head to Affordanithinging.com slash water. Again, that's affordanything.com slash water, which will redirect you to a page on the Charity Water website. And our goal is to sponsor a water project in the year 2018 so that somewhere in the world there will be a water project, maybe a well, that will exist because of the Afford Anything community. It costs about $10,000 in order to build a water project, in order to sponsor a water project, and we're already 13% of the way there. So I'm thrilled that this community has gotten behind this. Hopefully the store will be up and running.

My goal is this month, February of 2018, my goal is that the store will be online at that time. Of course, I'll announce it on the podcast as soon as it is. And the key takeaway, I guess, is that, you know, this is gratitude in action. For me, this is the practice of being grateful for the fact that I have safe, clean drinking water that comes out of the tap anytime I want. That is a luxury that I never want to take for granted. And so that's part of why I became so interested in charity waters because through this giving, I'm able to remember that not everybody has safe, clean drinking water that comes straight from a tap. It's so easy to get caught up in the Instagram envy. It's so easy to be like, well, geez, why are my appliances white instead of stainless steel?

I think the key to both frugality and happiness is being grateful for what you have rather than thinking about what you don't. So that is our show for today coming up on future episodes. We have an interview with Farnush Tarabi, the host of the So Money podcast, about how to avoid killing your spouse. and whether or not you should even get married in the first place. And we also have an interview with Liz from Frugal Woods about how she and her husband reached financial independence by their early 30s. Also, every other episode is one in which I answer questions that come from you, the listeners. So we've got those Ask Paula episodes every other episode, every even numbered episode. Thank you again for tuning in.

My name's Paula Pant. I'm the host of the Afford Anything podcast. You can read the show notes and download our online. free gratitude worksheet at afford anything.com slash episode one-one five. That's episode 115. Thanks so much for tuning in. I'll catch you next week. Oh, and P.S. If you enjoy today's show, please subscribe. Have a great week.