Afford Anything - How I Give Away 41% of My Income, with Bob Lotich

Episode Date: November 30, 2022

#415: The average American donates 2.1 percent of their income to charity, according to data from the Giving Institute. But an ordinary couple living in Nashville, Bob and Linda Lotich, refuse to be average. When they were both 31, they decided to “give their age” – they pledged to donate 31 percent of their income to worthwhile causes. They’ve increased their charitable giving every year since, to match their age. The couple is now 41 years old, and they give away 41 percent of their income. When they began this project, the Lotich’s were earning a combined household income in the high five-figures. They were making just under $100,000 combined, living in St. Louis. They carried a mortgage on their home. They worried that their commitment to giving might impact their ability to pay the bills. Over the last decade, their income has fluctuated – up some years, down in others. They moved to Nashville and had three children. These higher living costs have drastically impacted the family budget. But their commitment to giving persists. In today’s episode, Bob Lotich joins us to talk about why and how he committed to the “give your age” philosophy – and shares his advice for anyone who wants practical tips for increasing their capacity to donate to meaningful causes. Enjoy! Timing of discussion points as of November 2022: 04:46: Adjusting mental and budget space to allow for more charitable donations 13:12: The decision give to individuals vs. charitable organizations 14:57: Does giving to an individual impact the relationship? 16:56: Recommendations for platforms with giving opportunities 25:01: Managing the giving budget after starting a family 25:56: Guilt and shame around generosity 27:41: Giving from a place of gratitude and a place of pain 28:47: The concept of giving dreams 30:19: Building for a continuous impact vs. a large impact 31:48: Getting the children involved 37:48: How to increase your charitable giving For more information, visit the show notes at https://affordanything.com/episode415 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You can afford anything but not everything. Every choice that you make is a trade-off against something else, and that doesn't just apply to your money. That applies to your time, your focus, your energy, your attention, to any limited resource that you need to manage. That leads to two questions. First, what's most important to you? And second, how do you make decisions accordingly?

Answering those two questions is a lifetime practice, and that's what this podcast is here to explore and facilitate. My name is Paula Pant. I'm the host of the Afford Anything podcast. And today, as we head into that post- Thanksgiving season, Black Friday, Cyber Monday, all the sales, all the commercials and the spending and the 50% off, which still means 50% on. Is it something that you truly love? Or is it an impulse that you're going to forget about? These are the questions that come up right around this time of year. Questions around consumer spending. Questions around, questions around the temptation of discounts and deals, that psychological sense that we are, quote, unquote,

saving money by virtue of taking out our credit cards, when in fact we're upping our consumption. And right now we're doing so in a time when a lot of people's budgets are stretched thin because of inflation. So in the midst of all of this, we decided that this week's episode is going to take a step back, take a breather and focus on something that matters that isn't talked about enough. Giving. Let's start with the good news. The average American is a giver.

The average American donates 2.1% of their income to charity, according to data from the Giving Institute. Globally, Americans have some of the highest rates of charitable giving, both participation rates, the number of people in the population who make charitable donations every year, as well as the size of those donations. And if you want to learn more about charitable giving, we've done episodes about donor advised funds, about how to structure that. We'll link to some of those episodes in the show notes.

But today, we're going to zoom in close up on one couple that did something extraordinary. They were an ordinary couple living in Nashville named Bob and Linda Lodick. When they were both 31, they decided to give their age, meaning that they decided to give 31% of their income to charities or to worthwhile causes. Now, at the time, they earned a combined five-figure income. It was high five figures, but between the two of them combined, they made less than 100,000 jointly, just less, just less, but what less? They were making a joint five figures.

So it wasn't like they were wealthy. It wasn't one of the situations where they had money to burn. In fact, as you're about to hear Bob discuss, it was stressful. And it created a lot of doubts around, are we going to be able to pull this off? But they did it. And they've increased their charitable giving every year since to match their age. So they are now both 41 years old. and they give away 41% of their income.

This is obviously a unique, extraordinary example, but sometimes we have to look at the outliers, the extreme examples, in order to get a sense of what's possible. So as you're about to hear, at the time that they started this project, they had a mortgage on their home, they worried that giving this much away might impact their ability to pay the bills, And in the decade that has followed, that decade from age 31 to age 41, they moved to a different state. They moved from St. Louis to Nashville, which carried its own moving costs.

And they had three children. And they had to fit those three children into the budget. But they've managed to maintain their commitment to giving throughout all of it. And so in today's episode, we're going to hear about how they've done it. Enjoy. Hi, Bob. Hi, Paula. And it's so good to be here.

I'm so excited to talk to you again. I'm intrigued by how you were able to push past the boundaries of your generosity. A lot of people who are listening to this are comfortable giving up to a certain amount, 5% or 10%. You radically increased that. And that required adjusting both your budget as well as adjusting your mental space. Let's start with that mental space. Talk about how much you mentally had to do in order to give so much more than you previously were. I was age 31. We really felt like we were supposed to begin giving our age as a percentage of our income, which just felt insane. It really felt crazy. And I remember when this thought first popped in my head, Paul, like, I just remember feeling like, this is nuts.

And like, I don't even know if this can work. I don't even know if we're going to be able to pay the bills. But at the same time, there was kind of this excitement of going on this adventure just to kind of see what would happen. So I remember going back and talking to Linda about it and just, feeling like she's going to think this is crazy. She's going to blow me off. She's going to say, no, there's no way we're doing that. But she was actually on board. And so we realized, okay, well, I guess we're going to do this. And there definitely was a lot of mental hurdles,

maybe fears that had to be overcome. We weren't wealthy at that point by any means. This was a big stretch for us. And I was questioning, are we going to be able to pay our bills if we do this? And kind of doing the math, I'm like, I think it's going to be close. You know, but I had a big goal of paying off our mortgage at that point. We had paid off our other debts, but we still want to get our mortgage paid off. And it felt like I'm kind of laying down that, laying down this desire to pay down the mortgage in order to be more generous, which felt, I don't know, it felt scary. The whole thing, it just felt right. And, you know, when you know that you know, I want to run with that and move in that direction. And that's what that was for us.

So you deeply internally felt that giving your age as your percentage that you donate to charity, which at that time you were 31, so it's 31% of your income to charity. You deeply, like deep down, it felt that that was right. Linda was on board, your wife, she was on board, but did she have that same drive to do it? I don't know if she had the same desire instantly that I did, but I remember when we were dating and we were sitting in our cars and we would do this and just dream about being able to give millions of dollars away. It was just this thing that we both had in our hearts and this desire that we had.

And at that time, we were just dirt broke. I mean, we were both in basically minimum wage jobs and had no reason to ever believe we'd be able to give away millions of dollars. It made no sense. But it was still a desire in our hearts. And so I knew that we both had that. And so I think it was pretty easy for her to get on board with this because it's like, all right, this is a step in the direction that we want to go. This is something that was already important to us. It's like, this is just a big leap forward, maybe a little bit faster than we were anticipating.

And you mentioned at that time you were 31. Are the two of you the same age? Pretty close within a few months, yeah. Okay, yeah. So it's both of your ages as a percentage. Yeah, yeah. At the time, you mentioned you'd paid off your other debts, but you still had a mortgage. You wanted to be mortgage free. How did you square that? The idea of I'm going to be in debt longer in order to increase my charitable giving. It was hard because it's giving up something that I want in order to really impact someone else's life and make their life better. Ultimately, there was a peace in my heart that just felt like this is the right thing to do. Even though I was scared, even though it was kind of nervous, even though I felt like I'm giving up something important to me, glad we followed that. I'm glad we followed that urge. The quote that I love, it goes like this, never suppress a generous thought. We've tried to live that out. And as we do, it just feels like that is a better way to live life. And it's more enjoyable. It's more rich. It's more fulfilling. How much of your income were you giving prior to that? You were 31 years old. You were giving about 10%? Probably 10, maybe 11, 12%. It was a big leap.

Can you give us a sense of how much you were making at that time? You don't have to give an exact number. I'm guessing together our salaries would have been probably a little bit less than 100,000 a year. And where were you living? We were living in St. Louis. We had bought a house probably a year or two earlier, kind of starter house. Did you have kids at the time? At that point, we did not have any kids yet. All right, so tell us about how you logistically started approaching this. After that, after that conversation with Lyndon, we're like, all right, let's do this crazy thing. Let's try this out and see what happens. And, you know, one thing that she always says, I think is important. You know, we were moving in this direction, but we weren't committing

to this for life. It was kind of this experiment, like, let's see what happens. You know, and let's do this for a few months. And if we can't pay the mortgage and buy groceries, it's like, all right, well, maybe we'll need to adjust and adapt. But like I said, it felt like an adventure, it felt like let's step out into this and see what happens here. Let's just explore this idea and this approach. And so from there, that month, we set aside 31% of our income and started designating it to different organizations. And then another thing that we do, I always am encouraging people to do because it's really helpful. We create a category in our budget called a seed category, and you can call it whatever you want. But the point is, it's money that goes into a specific category

can't be used by us. Once it's in that category, it's only used for giving. And we found that to be really helpful because then when this woman on her email list emailed us and she unexpectedly lost her husband and had two little kids and it's like, all right, we have something that we can instantly tap into the money sitting right there ready to be given. That's a really, really fun thing. When you can have the money there ready to be given, it feels like you're not even giving your own money away anymore. So that was it. Like we just started setting aside 31% and then just giving it away. Did you have to cut back in other areas? Did you have to, like, how did your lives change the day to day of your lives?

Well, at that point, our business had been growing a little bit. We had enough to be able to give 31%, but it was almost all of the extra. Previously, all the extra was going to pay towards our mortgage because that was our number one financial goal at that point. And so all of that money that was allocated, the mortgage now becomes reallocated to giving. So I don't think we had to cut back a lot. Like, I don't remember making a lot of sacrifices in terms of that. The biggest sacrifice was just choosing to lay down this desire to pay off our mortgage faster

in order to be able to give more. After the first month or two of doing it, did you feel good or did you have what I've sometimes heard referred to as givers remorse where you're like, oh, why did I do that? No, I actually don't think I've ever had givers remorse. Sure, you know, I've heard people say that as well, but we didn't. And to be honest, at the end of that year, you know, when you increase your basically tripled our giving. At the end of that year, we're looking at tax statements. It's like, whoa, we gave a lot of money away this year. And, you know, and we had some organizations that we were

giving to, like, reach out to us and, you know, with tears in their eyes. Like, you really made an impact on the mission that we have and what we're trying to do and the problem we're trying to solve. And, you know, I don't know. And that was just fun. And then not to mention, my favorite part of all this are the little stories that we get to impact. So we had a pastor at our church where it's like, he was trying to buy a car. It's like, all right, we can just give him a couple thousand dollars now because we're moving more money is allocated towards giving and so now we can make a dent in solving this problem in someone's life. You've experienced so many stories through different acts of generosity that again just created a really fun life where this is something that

we just get to do more and more. But it happened because we began allocating more money to be given away. Right. And I hear in your voice the joy of giving. You just described it as a fun life to be able to give. And I never knew that, you know. I mean, I grew up just not knowing much about generosity or giving. And very much, I honestly kind of thought it was, I will do this if you do that for me. But if you don't do that, then I'm not going to very much this tit for tat thing that just isn't true generosity. That's not giving. Like giving is no strings attached. But it's come to be something that for Linda and I, it's one of our favorite things in life and our greatest memories are moments of generosity, moments where we got to impact someone's life, see.

the reaction on their face, see their experience. I often do my best to look, whatever, on my deathbed, like, what is a well-lived life going to look like? And from that lens, from that perspective of me being whatever, 80 or 90, looking back on my life, this, I'm 100% convinced are going to be, these memories are going to be the things that I'm going to be thinking about remembering, thankful that I participated in, so much more than whatever, the extra few thousand dollars that I added to my 401K or something. One thing that strikes me, as I hear you talk about some of the people whom you've given to, is that not all of your giving is necessarily to a 501c3 charity.

Sometimes it's to a person who needs some extra help. What strikes me about that is, number one, that not all of your giving is a tax write-off. And number two, that that means that if you were to use a vehicle such as a donor-advised fund, that vehicle would not work for some of the giving that you do. Can you talk about that decision? At the end of the day, we're led by the decision to give more than obviously the tax benefits or things like that. Donor advice funds are great. In all this to say, like, we give to a lot of organizations, a lot of not-for-profits. Like, that's part of the equation. I think there's a lot of benefit to that because a lot of these organizations are solving problems that can't be solved on an individual level by one person. You need to have an organization to have the scale and the scope to make a dent in whatever the problem is, human trafficking or whatever, like the thing is.

But outside of that, I think one of the joys that I have and the things I love about giving to individuals or individual situations is that you get to see that impact a lot closer. And especially if you know the person or get to watch kind of how that affects their life. That's really, really fun. And we love that so much. You know, I think if you're only giving to whatever, not-for-profit organizations or something that I think you're missing out on. some of that joy and that excitement of being able to participate on a one-on-one basis with someone as you give to them. So all that to say, yes, an ideal world, I'd love a tax break on all of it, but we're willing to sacrifice that in order to be able to do some of that one-on-one stuff.

When it comes to the one-on-one giving, does that have an impact on the relationship that you have with that person? Or has that ever had a negative impact? Yeah, that's been something that has been interesting. In most cases, I would say, a positive of impact. We're trying to use as much wisdom as possible with this in terms of situations where maybe there's an enabling component. You want to help. It was a book called When Helping Harts or something like that, which kind of explores this idea. We never want to be hurting anyone or harming anyone by our giving. You know, that's not the goal. It's the opposite of that. So that is a factor in it. I've had experiences. I remember one time I had a gas station. Like I saw a guy who really looked like

he needed some help and I gave him some money and he started screaming at me. me. You know, I don't need your charity, blah, I'm like, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I'm trying to help. You know, so it's like I've had moments like that were backfired and didn't go the way I wanted. But at the end of the day, that's not going to keep me from trying to be kind and trying to be generous going forward just because it wasn't received well sometimes. And, you know, and I think there's a maturity as you learn how to do it with tact, because every situation is different, you know, some people are not willing. So one thing that we're doing more of is anonymous giving, which I absolutely love because some cases, I guess,

get to sneak around like James Bond and like try to find a way to get it into their hands without knowing that it came from us. At the end of the day, I think most cases it's worked well for the relationship. You mentioned GoFundMe. Do you search GoFundMe for things that strike your heart? Or do you hear about specific GoFundMe? No, I mean, I don't really just scroll through GoFundMe. I think for somebody with tons of money and just like looking for causes you can do that. We haven't done that much yet. But I just said that just because it seems to be the platform of choice for a lot of people. When personal situations arise, I mean, we had a family. We knew our whole house burnt down.

They were in a bad situation for that. We had a widow with unexpected death of her husband. So these situations, I just tend to see them pop up on GoFundMe. And so that's why I said that. Yeah. Are there any other platforms that you particularly like or that you would recommend or you would want to share with the audience that's listening? Yeah. I mean, GoFundMe seems to be the one I see most times.

I do like it just because they make it really easy for a friend or a family member of somebody going through a hard time to just set something up for them really easy. I think it's a just good experience for most of the donors. There's a lot that I think they're doing really well. So that would be my first recommendation for anybody wanting to set something up for someone. Do you use Charity Navigator or Give Well or any of the charity evaluation tools to gauge the efficacy of a given nonprofit? No, I've definitely used them in the past. And occasionally I do. My one B for kickback a little bit

is that in terms of effectiveness of a charity, I think not everything can be quantified. And I'm not saying don't pay attention to whatever the numbers and everything, Charity Navigator's listing. But I think it's a factor that needs to be considered that some things can't fully be quantified. And so that's something that's in my mind as well. And so I'm just throwing that out there for anybody who needs to hear that. Those tools can be really, really helpful when comparing and evaluating. I want to get the most out of every dollar that I give. I don't want it to be wasted. Like I still care a lot about this money. I had to work hard to earn it. And so I want it to go somewhere and make as big of a dent as possible. Right. Let's talk about the

commitment to your age as a percentage. So you did it at 31. What happened next? First of all, how old are you right now? I'm 41 right now. So we have officially been doing this for 10 years. We are now of 41%. It's been a really interesting journey. And so for me personally, I'm someone who never wants to get to the point where I'm too comfortable. Tim Ferriss talks about this a lot. Just this idea of stretching yourself.

A lot of the stoic writers talk about this. Tim Ferriss, it might have been for our work week, just talking about this idea of doing regular experiments to kind of stretch your comfort levels and go beyond what you feel comfortable with. And so what's been good for us about this is it's created a good amount of tension for us,

giving 41% of our income, because it doesn't put us in this position where we have so much money that we don't have to think about everything or think about the decisions that we're making with it. Previous to us giving 31%. I remember reaching a point with our income where I wasn't saying no to myself very often.

Not necessarily about buying a yacht or something huge, but any time a thought came to my mind of, oh, I want that, that'd be nice. I would just go out and buy it. And I feel like that was making me weaker because I need to hear no. I need to be telling myself, no, I need to have some walls to bump up against, or I've just become really weak, you know, and I want to be stronger in terms of that decision making, in terms of

being able to handle a no. This percentage thing, for the last 10 years, anyway, has just been a really good, perfect amount of tension to where it stretches us. So even though we still have a good income, there's not too much sitting there. As this incrementally rises, yes, we have a nice house and like we're well taken care of and have food in the fridge and stuff. But this tension has been really, really good for us. I think keeping us strong and nimble and not becoming too weak. Right. You stay hungry a little bit. We'll come back to this episode after this word from our sponsors.

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Try the season's hottest flavors from the PC Holiday Insiders Report. Please feast responsibly. Over the last 10 years, how has your income changed? Income has gone up and down. It's been a roller coaster throughout, which has been really interesting because, you know, we had points where it's like, I don't know if we're going to be able to continue this, but we did and we made it through.

And then there have been other points where it was a little bit more room and it was a little more comfortable giving whatever the percentage was. Even as the income has fluctuated up and down, the entrepreneurial journey and the ups and downs of that. We've been able to continue to do it, and I'm excited. Yeah, I want to keep going until I'm 90. I want to see if we can do that, Paul. And you over the last 10 years also have had some kids.

Yeah, in the last 10 years, we've added three to our family. So expenses have obviously increased along that front. Given the changes in income and given the change, the dramatic change to the size of your family, how were you able to manage your budget such that you could continue giving at this level? I think any budget just needs to be living. and evolving and you need to be adapting into changing circumstances of your family. And so this has been no different. I was talking to somebody just their day, I recommended percentages, how much they spend on groceries or, you know, rent. And I was thinking about that in terms of us. I'm like,

well, it's very, very different in our situation because we have such a large percentage that's allocated at giving. So it just throws all those percentages way off. But really, it's just been adapting to whatever that looks like. Paycheck comes in and we just adapt it to this 41%. That's That's the thing that starts it all off. And then beyond that, we fill in the gaps accordingly. And it's worked fine. Is it 41% of your after-tax income or pre-tax income? This would be after-tax income.

One of the things that you've talked about and that I know you mentioned in your book is that there are some people who try to guilt or shame others into being generous. And that is counterproductive. Can you talk about how you've seen that and why it's counterproductive? I think it's really common in our society, and I think it's something that we don't even realize it's happening. Just from the simple thing of they bought me a present last year, whatever, this random acquaintance, and therefore I feel like I have to buy them one this year. There's so many things like that. Another example, we see us all time, but like sometimes I'll be at the grocery store, and then the cashier's like, hey, do you want to donate a dollar to X or Y? and there'll be two customers sitting behind me and the cashier.

And I'm like, no, I don't. I don't want to give to that. But I kind of feel pressured because you're sitting there asking me and I'm going to feel guilty if I say no. And the customer behind me, he might be already saying yes in his mind. And I'm going to look like a selfish jerk. It's like that's just not the right motivation for giving. And I think that's how so many people give.

And I think that's why a lot of people don't find the joy in giving is because it's pressure filled. And it feels like I'm being pushed into this thing that I don't want to do. I remember working in corporate America, like, we got all this pressure from our bosses to give to the United Way because they were trying to hit their numbers so they could get their special perk or whatever. And it's like, if you want to give to the United Way, that's great. But when there's a pressure-filled thing, like you have to do this or else, I don't, like, that's just not joyful giving. That's just not cheerful giving. That's not fun. When at all possible, seek for the

opportunities to give in a way that actually is enjoyable. Because I think that makes you want to do it more. You know, it's kind of fuel for your fire to just continue, and it's just so much more fun that way. And in terms of making giving more fun, you talk about giving both from a place of gratitude and also from a place of pain. You've written about that. Can you describe what that means? So it comes from a preacher named Andy Stanley, actually, had this quote where he said, his framework for giving is giving from a thankful heart and giving from a broken heart. Just this idea of If you want to know where to give and you don't have any ideas, like, this is a great place to start. Like, what are the things you're thankful for?

What are the organizations that you're thankful that they exist? Who are the people in your life who are you like, I'm really thankful that they're there? So that's a great place to give. In other hand, what are the things that break your heart? What are the problems in the world that you wish were not there? What are the situations in the people in your life around you or that you're familiar with or whatever? Where it's like, oh, I feel so bad about that. How can you use your time, your energy, your words to help alleviate that problem?

I think those are two great places to start looking. Nice. And you'll encourage people to create a giving dream. Like people often have. Yeah. And I love the phrasing of that because people often have dreams about what they want to spend on. Right. I want to take a certain trip.

I want to take a trip to Europe for six months. Or I want a certain type of house. or people often have purchasing dreams, but you rarely hear about giving dreams. Can you describe the concept of a giving dream? We talked to Tony Robbins or whoever else, and he would say, yeah, if you want a goal, like you need to write this down. You need to have this in front of you because that's going to motivate you towards it. So in terms of purchasing things, a lot of us use that to our advantage and fuel to reach those

bigger goals. Why not do this on the generosity side as well? We just knew we wanted to be able to give away millions of dollars, which was very specific and there's no way we're ever going to get there. But, you know, beyond that, we just wanted to give money. We didn't know where it wanted to go. But there's a lot of people who was like, I want to build a retreat center to help battered women and have dreams like that that are not money specific, but idea and vision specific. That's even more powerful when you can have that clear in your mind of this is something I'd like to be able to do. And then you can start working towards it in that

direction. And if you don't get those dreams out, get them on paper, get them in front of you, and just are continually reminded about it, it's easy for that to just drift into the background of an idea that's so far back in your head that you're just not thinking about, and then you just go on with day-to-day life, and then you miss out on that opportunity. Let's say you have a dream of, a big dream, like opening up a shelter, for example. Yeah. In that case, is it better, I'm using better in air quotes, is it better to give throughout your life every month or every year to other causes other charities, or is it better to accumulate money such that 10 years down the road, you would have a big amount that you could then use for that big dream?

My answer to this question is typically both. Warren Buffett is one who has been pretty vocal about, I'm really good at making money grow, so I'm going to turn it into a whole lot, and then when I die, it's going to be passed on. There's a reasonable argument for that, But my argument against it would be that, A, you don't know how long you're going to live. You don't know how far you're going to make it. But then B, again, like the joy component, I think it's really fun having those experiences, dotting your life all throughout. It's the years go by and all these memories that are created and all the impact that you can have with organizations rather than waiting to a certain point when you're retired or near dead to give all that away. I understand both sides.

and we are actually doing both and it's not like we give everything away. Like we're saving money up for that point. And I hope to be able to give tens of millions of dollars away when I die. But we're also choosing to do it now. I think there's a real advantage to that. How old is your oldest child? Eight years old. Have you gotten your kids, especially the older ones involved in giving? Yes, we've begun to do this. I'm very much a work in progress here because as parents figuring it out as we go, you know. The interesting thing to me, though, that I'm I think is important for anyone listening because you hear this anytime you read a parenting book or whatever. The kids are watching what we're doing and most of what we're passing down to them

isn't taught but it's caught. And so this has proven to be true with this. I don't feel like we have talked enough to our eight-year-old about giving in generosity. And we've definitely had plenty of conversations and we've tried to set up situations to create teachable moments. What's been really interesting to me is that he seems to have caught it without us having to teach nearly as much as I would have thought. I think it's just a testament to how much our kids are watching us and why it's so important that really with all of our financial decisions that it's not just for us, but our kids are paying attention to what we're doing and they're paying attention to the decisions that we make and the mistakes that we're making. So I think it's just a really important

thing that we as parents are just living this stuff out. Whatever the the things are, the ideals we want to pass longer kids. Like, we need to be living them more than just telling them you should do this. And how can you tell that your eight-year-old has caught it? One of the interesting things, like, we have a kid's ministry at our church that he goes to. And we've been told by the youth workers in which we're not even in there that every single time there's an offering at church, like he's the first one up running up there, wants to pray for the offering. And we've gotten text messages that sent us videos. And it's like, whoa, like, where is this coming from? Because again, like, I don't feel like we've talked to him about that that much.

But all the kids' workers in church are saying, you know, tell me that you're Bob and Linda's kid without tell me that your Bob and Linda's kid. So, yeah, it's just kind of funny to us. How have your friends, family, how have people reacted when you've told them that you're giving away now 41% of your income? You know, it's mixed. I mean, some people are like, you're just crazy. I get that. I would have thought that too. If you would have asked us, you know, 15, 20 years ago, if you had told me we'd do this, I'm like, there's no way.

That's insane. we're not doing this because we're such great altruistic people. We're doing this because this is a better way to live. And that's what I meant by this, like, kind of selfish motivation. In some weird way, it's kind of selfish because our life has just been better. It's been a more enjoyable life this last 10 years than it was the previous 10. I just really believe that a lot of that is because of the generosity that we stepped up into in this higher level of giving in all these moments we've been able to make and all these

experiences and just knowing that we're having an impact with our money, it's just made things more enjoyable. And it's made, you know, and there's studies that prove this that, you know, generous people are happier than those who aren't. It feels like we've lived that out and kind of seen that for ourselves. And so we want to continue. Things are just better this way. Why stop? Right. Has it impacted your savings rates? Has it impacted your retirement contributions? Any financial goals other than... It's just always the first thing that we do. So I haven't even really thought about it much through those lenses. We're still saving for retirement. We're still saving money, like putting money aside. I just don't really feel like it's bothered us. And I've been

saving for retirement or older age for a while. We're doing fine and we're on great path. Unless the whole economy blows up, I think we're going to be fine and we're giving me a good spot. We'll return to the show in just a moment. There are people listening to this who right now are thinking, I'd like to start donating more of my money. I can't right now do 41%, but I do want to increase it. What would you say to them? What tips would you give them for how to increase it? Both logistically and also mentally, emotionally getting over those hurdles. Yeah, just so we're clear, like I'm not telling anybody to give 44%. Yeah. Like, this is just what we felt like we should do. but I think the best thing to do is just start with a percentage or if you are giving a percentage,

just increase it by a percentage. One of the things that we talk about in the book is what we call a 1% challenge. These last 10 years going from 31 to 41%, like we haven't felt it. We're increasing by 1% every year. And I have never met a single person who started giving or saving 1% and then came back and said, oh, that was just way too hard. Like that 1% like just did me in, you know? Like everybody says the opposite.

like, oh, 1%, I didn't even feel it. I didn't even notice it. And honestly, probably even two and three and four and five percent, most people would say, I didn't even feel it. That's the power of it. Just make it first, you know, automate it, set it aside. And again, like, I would say, if I were starting out, focus on putting money in a separate account to be able to give from. And then what happens is once it's there and it's earmarked specifically for giving, now you're on the lookout for opportunities and for things. That's when it gets really, really fun. When you're looking for opportunities and then you see it and it's like, oh, I'm ready to go. When we first got married, I remember having situations come up and I wanted to give, but we had $5. That's all I could

scrape up. I was always so frustrated by that. I wanted it to be different, but it started, you know, with us, really just creating this account and designated how much we're going to put into it. For anybody listening, just starting, just put one, two percent, pull it aside, set aside, make it automatic, make it the first thing you do in a month and then just go from there. Nice. Excellent. Well, we're coming to the end of our time. Are there any final thoughts that you would like to share with the people listening? I've never met anyone who stepped into generosity at a higher level, just continue to increase up. It just felt like that was a bad decision. I think most people find that this was better. I would say just lean into it, lean into that direction. I don't think you'll regret it. Nice. Well, thank you for spending this time with us. Where can people find you if they want to know more about you and your work?

Sure. Yeah, we just released a book called Simple Money, Rich Life. So that is probably my life's work all rolled up into a book. And then beyond that, we're Seed Time Money podcast. Lynn and I are chatting over there. And then we're at Seed Time on Instagram. Thank you. What are three key takeaways that we got from this conversation? Number one, doing things that don't directly build your net worth or boost the size of your portfolio or progress you towards financial and. independence, doing those things can still completely enhance your life and enhance the lives of the people around you. And ultimately, that's what this is all for. What we're all doing, the whole reason that we pay attention to our money and our time and our energy and our attention, the reason we pay attention to resource management in the first place is because we want to create greater fulfillment in our lives. Our financial goals are a tool that can help us get there, but never confuse the tool with the thing that you're trying to build. The thing you're trying to build is

fulfillment. Money is just the tool for that. And so if there's ever an apparent trade-off between the goal of fulfillment and the method of building your net worth, prioritize the goal, not the method. From that perspective of me being whatever, 80 or 90, looking back on my life, this, I'm 100% convinced are going to be, these memories are going to be the things that I'm going to be thinking about remembering, thankful that I participated in, so much more than whatever, the extra few thousand dollars that I added to my 401K. Don't let your financial goals pull you away from the purpose, the why of it all. That's key takeaway number one. Key takeaway number two, being generous, giving more money to charity can have the added benefit of keeping you hungry,

keeping you on a path of progress. Sometimes when success comes, it can be easy to get complacent. And, I mean, you heard their story. We're not talking big, crazy, Uber wealthy success. Remember, when this all started, they were making a combined five-figure income. But still, it can be way too easy to go to. to Target and drop $100 and be like, what the heck did I even just spend that on? But giving your money a purpose and pushing yourself, stretching your budget in order to fulfill that purpose,

that can keep you motivated. I remember reaching a point with our income where I wasn't saying no to myself very often. I'm not necessarily about buying a yacht or something huge, but anytime a thought came to my mind of, oh, I want that. That'd be nice. I would just go. out and buy it. And I feel like that was making me weaker because I need to hear no. I need to be telling myself no. I need to have some walls to bump up against or I've just become really weak. And I want to be stronger in terms of that decision making in terms of being able to handle a no. This percentage thing, for the last 10 years anyway, has just been a really good, perfect amount of tension to where it stretches us. And so that's the second key takeaway. Setting an ambitious giving goal

can keep your motivation high. Finally, key takeaway number three, if you're not entirely sure what causes you want to support, ask yourself two questions. What are you grateful for? And what breaks your heart? There are so many examples out there

that answer both right now. Natural disasters, wars, famine, all of the relief efforts taking place globally. It breaks me. my heart and also makes me thankful for my own life at the same time. Or here in the United States, I look at Alzheimer's, dementia, the struggles that families have when they need to become caretakers, it's inspiring, it's heartbreaking, it's every emotion all wrapped up in one.

When we feel that, we get a sense of where we want to aim our money, what we're really working for. a preacher named Andy Stanley had this quote where he said his framework for giving is giving from a thankful heart and giving from a broken heart. Just his idea of if you want to know where to give and you don't have any ideas,

like this is a great place to start. Like what are the things you're thankful for? What are the organizations that you're thankful that they exist? Who are the people in your life? Who are you like, I'm really thankful that they're there. So that's a great place to give.

In other hand, what are the things that break your heart? What are the problems in the world that you wish were not there? What are the situations in the people in your life around you or that you're familiar with or whatever? Where it's like, oh, I feel so bad about that. How can you use your time, your energy, your words to help alleviate that problem? Those are three key takeaways that come from this conversation with Bob Lodick.

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Thanks so much for tuning in. I hope you enjoyed today's episode, and if you did, please share it with a friend or a family member. Forward the show notes to them, and make sure that you're subscribed in whatever app you're using to listen to this show. I want to give a shout out to Emilia N. Miles, who left a review on Apple Podcasts on Thursday, in which she says, quote, Paula has made financial learning fun, interesting, and tangible. I enjoy the thoughtful rhetoric between her and the guests or callers. I really enjoy listening to her thought process and her ability to go from wide-angle lens to a zoomed-in detailed answer.

I've learned so much over the past two years and gained confidence in entering the rental space. Three rental properties and counting. I look forward to her podcast each week. Thank you. And congratulations on your three rental properties. That's incredible. Steve, can we get a round of applause? big congrats to you.

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I hope you learned something. Most importantly, I hope. hope you take action. Thank you for tuning in. My name is Paula Pant and I will catch you in the next episode.