Afford Anything - How I Run a Six-Figure Business and Host an Airbnb while Traveling the World -- with Natalie Sisson

Episode Date: January 22, 2018

#113: Natalie Sisson was tired of the corporate world. She wanted freedom, adventure and fulfillment. In 2008, she quit her job and co-founded a tech company -- but soon she discovered that running a company felt a lot like having a day job. Two years later, she quit her own company in order to truly strike out on her own. Since 2010, Natalie has run an online business from her laptop while traveling the globe. She's visited 70 countries, living out of a suitcase while running a lucrative six-figure business. She also owns investment real estate in Portugal and New Zealand. In this interview, Natalie and I discuss: - The four phases of entrepreneurship: The Dreamer, The Hustler, The Superhero and The Freedomist. - Why Natalie transitioned from a steady paycheck to the financially volatile life of an entrepreneur. - How Natalie coped when her bank account dwindled to her last $17. - The major family crisis that reinforced why freedom and flexibility matter more than any job. - How she bought a property in a foreign country. - How she manages an Airbnb rental property from halfway around the world. - Why a minimalist attitude towards possessions is crucial for a traveler and entrepreneur. Enjoy! Visit http://affordanything.com/episode113 for more information Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You can afford anything, but not everything. Every decision that you make is a trade-off against something else. And that's true, not just of your money, but also your time, energy, focus, attention, anything in your life that is a scarce or limited resource. So the questions are twofold. What is most important to you? And how is that going to change your day-to-day behaviors and your day-to-day actions? Answering those two questions is a lifetime practice,

and that is what this podcast is here to explore. My name is Paula Pant. I'm the host of the Afford Anything podcast, and today I have Natalie Sison, the suitcase entrepreneur, on the show with me. Natalie left the corporate world in 2008. She initially started a tech company that she co-founded, but she left that in 2010 after that started to feel a little bit too much like a job. Since 2010, she's led a solo business that she runs from her laptop, a personal brand lifestyle-based business. And by virtue of running this from her laptop, she's been able to work from anywhere. So since 2010, she's lived out of a suitcase, running a business through her laptop, and she's traveled to more than 70 countries.

On this interview, Natalie and I chat about everything ranging from how she runs her business to buying properties in countries where you don't speak the language, to being an Airbnb host from halfway around the world to a funny thing about paying taxes when you don't actually live anywhere. And we close out with a discussion on what financial freedom really means. So, let's jump in. Natalie Sisson, the suitcase entrepreneur on her seven years of living out of a suitcase and traveling around the world while running a business. Hey Natalie. Hi, how are you doing? I am excellent. How are you? I am fantastic. Well, I wanted to have bring you onto the show today because you have a fascinating life. Since 2010, you started living out of

a suitcase. How did that come about? It came about because I had built enough of my business to a point that I was like, hang on a minute, if I can earn revenue online through my business, why can't I do this from anywhere? So I literally took off from, I was in Vancouver, Canada, and I packed everything up into one suitcase, one really heavy suitcase. And I thought, I'm going to go to Buenos Aires, as Argentina because I'd always wanted to go back. And I thought, why not? And let's go there and just dance tango and see if I can run my business from another country. So tell me about what business you were running. Like how did you go from being a normal person to being somebody who runs a business online? I've gone from an uggle to an entrepreneur. Yeah, I think it's a really great question

because business is maybe a little bit much of a word to describe it at that time. I had literally built a blog called Woman's World back then. The business essentially was, I was a very personal brand, but I was also building products, offers and services online that would help entrepreneurs to do that. And I was really, really focused then on outsourcing systems, social media, and just how could you allow your business to run? And also, partly, how could you run your business without you? So that was my whole thing. That was the freedom aspect. And at that point, I only had one product. So this was back in 2010. You were already doing it back then? Yeah, I was. I actually started the blog late 2009, quit

the business that I co-founded, which was a tech company, I quit it in April 2010, right around my birthday, and that's when I essentially went full on with my business, which really wasn't a business at that time, Paula, it was a blog. Walk me through your job history a little bit. Let's start with, I presume you finished university and then what? Yeah, I did. I actually took a year off before it just to, because, you know, so much school for so many years of your life. And then I did two degrees and four years. And then I fell straight into recruitment, which was probably a big mistake, but was that whole interviewing people to get the most out of them.

I did that for nine months. And then I went into the path of what I really wanted to do, which was marketing, brand management, threw into business development. And I literally would do a job for the most I ever held down a job for was almost two years. And that was a really great national brand manager role. But basically, I'd then go off traveling, run out of money, come back and start another role.

So my whole eight years in corporate was very much around marketing and business development. Wow. But during those eight years that you were a traditional employee, you were, you were kind of running the mini retirement model of work, cash up, quit, travel, go back to run out of money, go back to work, cash up, quit travel. I guess I was, but I didn't know that's what it was back then. Where were some of the places that you would travel to? I would head off to Europe, to South America, to Asia, so I just sort of pick my favorite

continents, places where you could backpack for less. I don't backpack anymore, but just, yeah, brilliant. I spent a chunk of time in South America and quite a lot, obviously, in Asia, around Thailand and Laos and Vietnam, etc. So it was just fun, wherever I could go, that my money would actually last. As you were building your business while also balancing that with a job, how did you manage your time as you were making that transition? Yeah, I'm trying to remember, actually.

I just felt like I was just fully immersed and so passionate about what I was doing. So I don't think I had a really good time balance. I was working really, really long hours. But I think when you get lost in the heart of what you're trying to build, and also you kind of need it from a financial perspective. You tend to work a little bit too much. But it all felt really interesting and exciting because blogging back then to me was all new. The social media was still fairly new.

And the only thing that kind of balanced it out probably was playing Ultimate Frisbee, which is my passion and traveling to tournaments to take time out to do that. So I think my life was pretty much the tech world, social media, online business and Ultimate Frisbee. And it was super balanced outside of that. No meditation, no mindfulness back then. just really immersing myself and everything and being a student of life in the business world. There are a lot of people who are listening who are interested in starting some type of a side business. How would you recommend that they get started?

That's a great question because I think had you talked to me a couple of years ago, I used to suggest that everybody just, you know, kind of go all in. So if you did want to start a business, make it happen. You know, quit your job, go for the business. What's the worst that can happen is that you might have to go back to a job. But I've done enough reading and I've had enough experience now and I've watched enough people going through this that I really think if you're going to take on a side hustle, it's a brilliant way to see if you really are passionate about the thing that you're building without quitting your job and without losing your financial safety net. But having a definite due date for when you want that side hustle to be your main thing or when you're going to quit it. Because obviously not every side hustle is going to work out, right?

So what I used to say to people and what I will say now is, yeah, if you have a full-time job and you have this desire to do this thing on the side, then really make a go of it. Don't let it take over your life, but a lot, a certain amount of hours that you can each week to it. Learn as much as you can apply, experiment. And if it starts to bring in more money than your day job, then that's a great time to quit your job and go full on and treat it as a really, not serious, but you know, treat it as a business and put you're all into it. What's the minimum amount of time that you think a person would need to dedicate per week in order to actually give it lakes? I feel when I've spoken to people who are in full-time jobs, the most they can kind of a lot is around to 20 hours extra outside of their jobs.

And, you know, I think that's probably enough because you also have to have downtime and you have to have family time or friends time or just nature time. So you really, you don't want to burn yourself out early on. But also, if you're really loving it and you're passionate about it, then you probably want to a lot as many hours as you can. And I also think that people who have side hustles, there's no reason why they can't actually start hiring some assistance early on. Like a virtual assistant can cost very little when you're starting out

and can take over a lot of the admin and research. So you don't have to do it all on your own. And I think this is something people need to get their heads around. If you've got an income coming in from your job, there's no reason you can't pay somebody half or a third of what you're earning on your hourly rate who can actually take on quite a lot of that work for you. So I don't think you should have to do it alone either. How early within your business did you start hiring assistance and building a team around you?

A little too late, I think. So technically I was full on with my business from 2010 onwards. I didn't really earn much until the end of 2010, 2011. and it was when I decided to go on a bicycle trip down Africa in 2012 that I was like, crap, I'm going to be offline for two months and I'm essentially going to be just riding a bicycle down Africa, so I need to hire a virtual assistant. So I think it was March, February March of 2012, so about a year and a half, two years into my business. And I really wish I'd done it beforehand because once I hired my first assistant, she was amazing.

And I was just like, couldn't delegate enough to her. And from then on, I just went person by person, like, what's the same? the next need that I have, okay, I have a podcast, I don't like editing it. I'll hire a podcast editor, et cetera, et cetera. And just it's very, very addictive when you actually find the right people to be in your team. And it just brings you so much joy, I think, because you get to work on the stuff you really love. How do you know when you found the right people? This is such a big one.

I just ran an outsourcing, like, lab to help people make their first hire. And the biggest concerns that most people had were around trust and security. And, you know, what if they leave me and what if they take my intellectual property etc. And I just used to say to those people, like there's two words when you hire somebody that will help you to help them take on responsibility and view their job or their role in the team as something that's really important. And the two words I learned from Laura Roder, and it's your call because otherwise you basically let every single person your team rely on you for all the decisions and all the responsibility. And what you really want to do is when

you found the right person is they're the person who proactively steps up and says, Natalie, I think I can handle this. Can you give me a shot and let me take a shot? And let me take over it. And that's when I think you found the right person when you have confidence and trust that they're willing to sort of take flight and go, I think I've got this. What about when you, as you do, when you run a business that is largely based around a creative or artistic vision, how do you build a team and tell people, hey, that's your call, while also maintaining the vision of the original creator? Yeah, I think it's something that just takes work and I'm constantly sort of tweaking. But for me, every three years,

is I actually create a painted picture. It's like a vision board on steroids. And I plan out where I'd love to be in three years from now in business and life. And I actually put it out there publicly. I put it out on slide share so anybody can see it. And I will show every single new team member my painted picture because it essentially is like the vision that I have. What I typically then do is align that with where we're going and what we're doing this year. So usually it inspires them. And also in that painted picture, there's a whole section on team, like that we trust each other, that we respect each other, you know, that we're really doing the best work that we can for our customers, for our clients. And so that's like a really

beautiful thing to be able to point them to. And then I build that into our systems and our like operational guidelines and everything that we do, especially when I have a bigger team. At times I can shrink it right down and it can be pretty lean and mean and other times around launches it expands. So that's the best tool that I use. And if you don't have something like that, even just a one pager that kind of is this is what I see for our business and this is that, ethos that we want to run on and these are the values that we have. Even just one page of writing that down and getting really clear on it is helpful to show every single new team member. So you've been running your business while living out of a suitcase and traveling. What have been

some of the challenges and the benefits of being on the road as you run this? Where do I start? It's interesting because when I speak to my friends now, they're like, Nat, I have no idea how you did that for so long. Like when I travel, I'm completely unproductive. I can't work from airports or trains or planes like you can. Oh, I can't either. You can't. And they're like, I get really unsettled. I don't have a routine.

So I guess in my book, The Suitcase Entrepreneur, I did talk about whether it's right for you or not because for people who really like change and they thrive on it, for people who are good in non-routine kind of situations and making the most of things, I think it suits you really well. And also, I think I just got really used to it. So because it became my life, sorry about my puppy, because it became my life, I think I just worked around it and made the most of it. So, for example, when I'm on a plane and there's no Wi-Fi, it's brilliant for me because I get so much done.

I can write, I can read, I can think, I can create. I also, I can actually work from cars and trains and anything that's moving, so I'm really lucky. I appreciate that. But what it does do is it condenses your time down really well so that you just focus on that hour or two that you have when you're at the cafe or before your flight, etc. And so for me, that was actually stimulating. And I think I got, I actually felt I was more productive on the road than sometimes I am when I'm working from home or from an office or a co-working space, which is really unique.

But there are obviously trials and tribulations, the lack of Wi-Fi sometimes. Sometimes I was trying to run a webinar or run a coaching call and I'd set myself up in a place where I knew there was Wi-Fi and it had dropped or it wasn't accessible or just things that were out of your control. So I think I used to always say to my team and to my clients, you know, I will always be there, but just remember I'm living this lifestyle. So sometimes things don't go to plan. If I don't turn up, if I'm late, if there's no Wi-Fi, it's out.

sort of beyond my control even when I've done my best job to make it not so. And I think people just became most of the time pretty flexible with me. They'd be like, that's cool, Nat's traveling, something must have happened, which is really good, but I also trained people to think that way. You know, like if you're always available for people, they expect you to be there on demand. And I'd often say, I'll get back to you in 24 hours or I'm going to be offline for these next three days. And so just helping people to understand and communicate with them was huge. But it's not always easy and it's definitely challenging and it's not for everybody. And to answer your question, I think the perks are sometimes that those mishaps, those things that are out of your control can

actually be the thing that gives you more freedom ironically because sometimes not being accessible and not being able to get in touch with you, gives you more time to just work on the stuff that you really need to do. You can almost use it as a bit of an excuse. I'm sorry, I'll be offline because I'm going to be in the middle of this Borneo jungle. It just kind of gives you some time out and some freedom, which I used to really, really value. You mentioned that you left your last traditional full-time day job in early 2010, but you didn't really start making decent money until late 2010, beginning of 2011. Did I have that correct?

Yeah, actually, so I left my last day job in 2008. That was in London. Then I went to Vancouver, played World Championship Ultimate Frisbee, and that's when I met my business partner, and we started our technology company. And then you left the technology company in 2010. Exactly, yeah. So it was around 18 months after.

All on really good terms as well. I think it was, as you mentioned earlier, it did feel like a day job, and I hadn't signed up for that. Like I really wanted the freedom to be able to work on a real business and also be the founder of that business. I still, even though we were co-founders, it very much felt like it was his idea

and he'd put the original money in. And so I did feel sometimes a little bit more like an employee rather than his partner and, crime. When you left the tech company, what feelings did you have, particularly given that your online business wasn't yet financially where you wanted it to be? Like, were you afraid? Did you drag the decision out longer? What was going through your head at that point? I think I made the decision fairly promptly. Like when my business partner actually sat me down and said, hey, I think you just love your blog so much and you're really good at it. Maybe you should give it a shot. And I was like,

that's a great idea. And we talked it through. And I think I had a month or so before I left. And then when I left. I was like, what the heck have I done? All I have is a blog and like literally no income coming in. I had about $2,000 to my name. Rent in Vancouver is really expensive. And yeah, I got scared and I had many nights when I was kind of crying in my bed, going, what the heck have I done? Like the scariest moment after eight years in the corporate world to suddenly go, you're on your own and everything you do is every single decision you make is going to impact your future. So there were definitely pretty scary moments and I did actually get down to about and I fully remember it. I always used to look at those stories that people are like, I was down to my last $5 and I was like, oh, that's, you know, really.

And I actually got down to my last $17 and I was like, oh, this is what it feels like. Like not a fun place at all, especially when you've been in pretty good jobs that earn really, really good money and you're being quite high up to suddenly be in this place of I can't even afford my rent for this month and I actually probably can't put food on the table tonight. There's no better motivator. Well, in my mind there was no better motivator. for you to hustle and actually make things happen. And for me, that was actually, I'd been trying to talk with somebody about doing some consulting work, and it finally came off in that week.

And I asked them for 50% up front of this consulting fee, and they went, okay. And I just basically ran across the road with a check to bank it so that I could cover my rent. Like, it wasn't, it was not a fun time. But it was certainly a time that you want to get away from as quickly as you can. And it was a great motivator. During that time, did you ever have any doubts about your decision? Oh yeah. Yeah, because a lot of people will see these flashy things online about make money fast. And it just, it doesn't. It's like two years of hard work and effort and refining and defining what you do and how you differ and what your services and products are and who your audiences and who you're serving. And so much of that was unclear to me. I was just busy trying to learn how to even run an online business, let alone, you know, make it profitable. So there were many, many times where I was like, I could really, I could be back in a job earning really. really good money. But the thing that pushed me to carry on is that that was actually the last

thing I wanted. I didn't want to give in. I didn't want to admit that I might have to give up on my dream of doing my own thing. And it strikes me, even now, eight years on, I'm still flabagascar that I've been in business. Actually, it's a little bit longer. Been in business, including the tech company, longer than I've been in the corporate world. Like, that just blows my mind. And you actually have to pat yourself on the back sometimes and celebrate what you've done because it's not a difficult life being, sorry, it is a difficult life being an entrepreneur because you're trying to make an impact and you're trying to do good in this world and you're doing it all under your own steam. So I take my hat off to every single person who's

ever started a venture, even if it didn't work out because it takes guts and it takes consistent effort and determination. As you well know. Yeah. There was a, if you don't mind if I ask about this, in 2015, something happened that really, reinforced why the decision to be an entrepreneur and to have that freedom was important. Yeah, I was over in Berlin speaking at an event, actually for digital nomads. I was right in the heart of talking about freedom and business and adventure in life. And I came off stage and it was on such a high and was just feeling really, really good about myself. And I had a call for my sister, like she messaged me and she said, Nat, can you please call home?

Dad's not well. Well, just called, basically. and I never got anything urgent from her. So I remember ringing home and they were at the hospital and my dad had taken really ill, like collapsed, sort of ill in hospital, not eating, not doing well. And this is such a horrible thing to hear when you're 24 hours away at least by flight and on the other side of the world because they were in New Zealand.

And I gave it a day or two and I just remember I couldn't. I was such a high from being there to this couldn't eat, couldn't sleep, just completely worried about it. And finally hopped on a flight home. And mum's like he's not getting better. It would be lovely if you could come home. So that's such a long trip. I think I got home about two and a half days later with no sleep.

And I was so lucky to be there and he was okay. He came right for about three months and then he actually passed away. I was so thankful that I was able to in that moment drop everything, like everything to go home that one could afford a flight at the last minute. Two, that when I got home I could just totally be there for my family. I literally just closed up my business. It's like I just let people know, I'm like, hey, I'm just here for my family. And I thought, I have so much freedom right now to do this.

And what if I'd been in a corporate job still where they may have only given me two weeks leave or I might not have been able to afford the flight home or I would have been having to work or something at the same time. It was just it really hit home how much flexibility and freedom I built into my business. And I was so grateful for that in that moment. Thank you for sharing that. When I read that on your website, I immediately came to mind all of the questions that I've gotten over the years from people who say, you know, what's the point of all of this? Is it just to drink

pinia caladas on the beach? And no, clearly, no, it's not. The freedom is worth much, much more than that. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, drinking pinoladas on a beach is always fun, but you're right. I know people have done really well on their business, especially online. They've made tons of money. They've had all the freedom in the world and they're miserable because they don't have purpose or meaning. You know, they don't have anything backing that up. They've sort of achieved what they wanted and then they're like, hang on, is this it? Like, who am I impacting? How am I helping? What difference am I making in people's lives?

And they'd kind of miss the point of it. And yeah, for me, it's all about friends and family. It's all about purpose and giving back and making an impact. And yeah, it's just so fascinating how things change in your life and what your priorities are and what events make you really wake up and go, yeah, wow, this is the thing that matters. We'll come back to the show in just a second. But first, are you happy with your bank? Are you getting the most from your money?

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You have come up with a few archetypes of various types of entrepreneurs. And I wanted to discuss that. There's the dreamer, the hustler, the superhero. Those are the three that I've discovered. I don't know if I'm missing any. And the freedomist, I think. I call myself a freedomist. That's kind of like the echelon of, you know,

where you've got a great business that works really well for you, but you're not tied to it and you can do the things you love. And you've got systems and processes in a team. I kind of made them up. I mean, I didn't just make them up. I've surveyed my audience so much over the last seven, eight years. And all these trends just kept coming. out at me that there's so many people who are dreamers. And I'm not saying that in a mean way.

You know, they have big dreams or they have ideas for things, but they're never going to get them off the ground unless they really put a plan into place and have accountability and mentoring and actually a process. And then the hustlers are those people who are in that moment of, you know, maybe they've started their business and they're in full on hustle mode, which is a place that everybody should be at some point and go through because it's a really exciting time. But you don't want to be there for too long because it will burn you out. So from there, I went into the superhero, which is the person who thinks that they're amazing and they can do it all, and they are going to burn out less they build a team and some systems.

So they've probably got a fairly successful business, but it all relies around them and revolves around them. It's just interesting to see people in those stages and why I built those archetypes is I was finding I had so much information that I was putting out my blog and my podcast, and I really wanted to understand which of those bits of information were valuable to which audiences. and I would say 70% of my audience were actually in the dreamer hustler stage, which meant that a lot of the offerings that I was putting out that were more advanced weren't going to sit well for them or they were just, you know,

they weren't quite at that level. So it really helped me to define and better understand, well, what do they need to get past this hurdle? Or what do they need to start? Or where can I direct them if it's not me that's going to help them with that? And I just think everybody should segment their audience at some point when they have enough data and validation because it really helps. Not everybody is at their own individual part of their journey.

and at different parts you just need different levels of support. So it sounds like maybe archetypes wasn't the right word for it. It sounds like maybe this could be better described as phases of going through the business, the process of starting a business. You go through the dreamer phase in the beginning, and then you may go through the hustler phase, and then, you know, when you're first getting started, and then eventually you get a little bit of success,

and then you're in the superhero phase, where everything is all on you. And then you break out of that into the freedomist phase. Would that be more accurate? Yeah. Yeah, probably would actually. I think, yeah, you're right. They're profiles, but they are definitely phases that you go through.

And some people never leave some of the phases, you know, if I'm really honest. Some people will always just be dreamers, which is fine, you know, but I hear a lot of people going, oh, one day I'm going to do this and one day I'm going to do that and one day. And then I'll see them four years later. And none of that's happened, but they say, if they really wanted it, they would have, you know, made a start on it. that's always been my impression and my understanding when I meet people is, you know, people who really, really want something will just make it happen no matter what.

Absolutely. By virtue of living out of a suitcase and traveling around as you run your business, you have to be a bit of a minimalist in terms of your personal possessions. Have you always been a minimalist or is this something that you developed out of necessity? I think I always have, actually. I've always valued experiences over stuff. Even if I look back as kids, we were never left wanting for much, but we did have to save up our spending money to buy something that we felt was really important.

And I liked that our parents did that. You know, we didn't just get everything at the drop of that. And we had to work for the stuff that really counted. And so I think that made me more conscious of saving money and the importance of it to really buy the thing that counted. And I would actually often spend my spending money on buying flowers and my mum. I know it sound like the best kid in the world, but I was like, that was more important to me, was making our parents happy and just, yeah, I just really loved the idea of doing that.

And I never really bought many things, even at university. It was more about what sports because I'd be involved in, what extracurricular activities. I worked throughout university. So, yeah, even when I bought my first house at quite a young age, which was a stretch for me, I didn't even put that much furniture in the house. Like, it wasn't about all the joy things, didn't have a lot of money to buy it. But it was just about what makes you comfortable and what makes you comfortable and what makes you happy and it's all about the people. And when you live out of a suitcase, like you become,

obviously I said I left with a really heavy suitcase, but I became so good at making that just super efficient. And I realized after a while you really don't need much, like the core foundations of what you need, and this is a metaphor for life, I think, are very minimal. And it's so much more freeing to not have much stuff. And now that I actually live in a beautiful house in New Zealand, like my partner and I have actually flipped our lifestyles completely and we've had to buy stuff to fill this house because it's a big house. But we don't fill it. Like a lot of our friends I said, oh, you'll fill those cupboards before you know it. And I was like, no, we won't. I'm not going to buy stuff just for the sake of, because we have a lot of cupboards now. So I'm just really mindful. And I even just said to

him the other day, I think we need to do every six months. We need to do just a cleanse. So what are we not using that we have somehow acquired or being given or bought? And how can we give that back? How can we donate it and not replace it? You know, like, what do we just not need? Because I never want to be a hoarder and I just, I could never imagine, I get so much freedom from not having clutter and from not having much stuff. Yes. Yeah? Yeah.

I'm exactly the same way. We do the same thing. We don't have much stuff to begin with and routinely get rid of things. And I have so many empty drawers and empty cupboards and empty shelves. I love it. I love seeing that, you know, if everything is full, then there's a problem. Absolutely. And why do people hold on to stuff?

what is it about stuff that you are not the thing that you've acquired or kept. Even this ring, I have a beautiful ring that my mum bought me a couple of Christmases ago because I was never here for Christmas. So one Christmas she bought me something special. And I love it. But if I lost it, it would more be that I lost the thing that she gave me, like that it was something that she especially bought me, not the actual ring. It's an interesting way that people get really attached to things as if they define them

and they don't define you at all. It's like the Emperor's robe, isn't it? Like, without the robe, nobody knew who he was. which is so not true. Like I think without all our stuff, it comes down to the essence of who you are. That's the thing that matters. People remember how you made them feel at the end of the day, who you were, how generous you were, how much quality time you spent with them, not the stuff that you had. Right.

Exactly. In terms of sentimentality, I've gotten around that by, I have one box, and anything sentimental that I want to hold on to has to go into that one box. So that's my limit. How big's the box? It's not that big. It's not very big. But most of the time it's little scraps of paper or little momentos. But I can keep it so long as it fits in the box.

And if that box starts to overflow at all, it's time to go through there and get rid of some stuff. But that hasn't been a problem yet. Yeah, I love it. We'll return to the show in just a moment. But first, as I've mentioned in the past, we're about to launch the Afford Anything store. This store is going to sell at a minimum T-shirts. It'll hopefully sell some other stuff. like coffee mugs, but definitely will at least be selling t-shirts and 100% of the profits from this will go to charity water.

The store is not up yet, but behind the scenes, as we've been in the process of researching how to process online orders and then ship physical goods online, we're finding that we're going to need a platform that allows us to compile orders from multiple websites and then process those orders and then ship the goods. So for that, we'll be using ShipStation. ShipStation is a platform that helps you get orders out quickly. It helps you manage and ship your orders all from one place. So if you are an online merchant and you use Shopify, Squarespace, Etsy, Big Commerce, Woo Commerce, or over 75 other popular selling channels, ShipStation will bring all of these orders into one simple interface. And you can manage it from any device, even your cell phone.

And then ShipStation will create shipping labels for all the top carriers, including UPS, FedEx, the Postal Service. So with ShipStation, you'll be able to ship more in less time with the best rates available. And that's why Ship Station is the number one choice of online sellers. Right now, you can try ShipStation free for 30 days and get an additional month free only if you use my promo code, Paula, P-A-U-L-L-A. So go to shipstation.com. That's S-H-I-P-Station.com. And before you do anything else, click on the microphone at the top of the homepage and type in Paula, P-A-U-L-A. That's shipstation.com interpala. Ship station. Making ship happen. Regardless of whether or not you have debt, managing healthy credit is important if you want to buy houses, whether it's a personal residence or an investor. property, or if you want to open up new credit cards, if you want to lease a home in a different city for lots of other things, you need to manage your credit. So if you're interested

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which could be a lifesaver in the wake of the Equifax data breach. And if you need it, there's a live helpline where you can talk to identity restoration specialists, also for free, and you can check your credit score for free. So check them out. It's great to know your credit score and to get personalized educational content. They're creditcesami.com. Creditcesami.com. You've traveled to 70 countries, right?

Mm-hmm. Are there any countries that you particularly keep going back to? Yeah, Portugal has become one of my favorite countries. I think I used to be a Spain fan for ages. Just something about it really often felt that maybe I should have been from Spain, the more relaxed nature, very social, the sunshine, just the food. And then I went to Portugal and I was like, ooh, this is even better. Like it's a little bit like a hidden, it reminds me of that it's like the European New Zealand.

It's got fewer people there. It's a smaller country. Spain's its big brother, just like New Zealand, Australia. It's got incredible coastal line for surfing, etc. Got lovely vineyards, got amazing wine and food. People are really honest and down to earth and friendly and proud, but not arrogant. It's become my second home in many ways. So I actually did buy a house there.

I found a love with it so much, which I currently rent out near Airbnb, but fully intend to do a couple of months there every year now. So that's one of the ones I always go back to. I do love Europe as a, you know, sort of as a continent itself. I think the history there is incredible, the culture. My mum and dad are both from there, so I feel a sense of belonging. So many great places. Like I love Bali as well, people. Just all these places that sort of really speak to you, each of them.

has its own special thing that you love about it. Also, I'm a big fan of Brazil and Argentina. So something about that South American feel down there and the energy from those countries and the way in which they kind of live their lives really appeals as well. Do you speak Portuguese? I speak appalling Portuguese. I was starting to learn it. It's very, very difficult. It sounds really beautiful, but it's really difficult even when you do speak mediocre Spanish. So I would say that no, I understand some, and I could probably say a few things, but it's, yeah, it's something that I started learning when I was there.

And much like any language, unless you put in the effort, they go by the wayside. So I feel like it's a much better place to be learning that language in the country when you're there. What was the experience of buying a home in a country in which you could not speak the language? Well, luckily, almost every single Portuguese person that I know speaks English. Well, that's not quite true, but a large majority of them do. I met a great lawyer earlier on who was immaculate with his English and was used to dealing with people from overseas. So the experience was actually really good. It was a little more bureaucratic and time-consuming than I would have thought just because systems and processes there take a lot longer.

It is a bit more archaic. But on the whole, pretty easy considering. And the real estate agent was super friendly. And I just make things happen. So I think they were trying to work at the speed of light to go on with my action taking. So on the whole, it was a really positive experience. The documents that you had to sign were those in English? They were in Portuguese, but the lawyer did a translation for me each time.

And then I had a friend who was Portuguese, so I had a few by then, so I'd just kind of get them to just make sure it said what it said. So yeah. And sorry if I'm being nosy, but this is a finance podcast, so I ask a lot of money questions. So the financing that you obtained, were you able to obtain financing from a Portugal-based bank, or was it one from New Zealand? That was a pain in the ass, actually. that was one of the holdups is that I was trying to go through a Portuguese bank there and that I just looked too dodgy to them like I'm a digital nomad, you know, fiscally free in many ways. And so I ended up having to go through New Zealand. Yeah, I got an ex, I owned two properties

back in New Zealand and I got an extension on one of them because one of them I'd almost outright paid for. So I just got an extension on the loan. I put in a certain amount of cash up front and then just put the rest in with that loan. So that was how I ended up getting around it. And had I done that from the beginning, I might have been able to buy that house in like three or four weeks. As it was, it took a couple of months. I see. So it got rolled in with an existing loan from New Zealand. Yeah, and it was amazing. Like, I think I spent four weeks going to visit different banks and talk them all through. And actually, it was even longer because then they'd have these

processes of seeing if I was valid. And they should have just told me up front, we're never going to accept you as a customer. But they like to try and please. And meanwhile, in New Zealand, they turned it around in three days. I kid you not. Like, from acceptance to the loan to actually transferring the money over, I was to see. it was incredible. So I was like, huh, I could have done this a while away. Speaking of banking and all of those other kind of details of life, where did you, during all of this time as you've been traveling, where would you file taxes? Like, did you keep your domicile based in New Zealand? Or would you become a resident of different countries? How did you manage all of that? That was the thing that I really looked into when I first started because I wasn't sure where the heck I was supposed to pay tax. And I was, I'd left New Zealand back in 2006.

So by the time I started my business, I'd been away for long enough that I wasn't necessarily considered a resident there. So actually, as a digital nomad, you can, I didn't end up paying tax for several years. And I worked with a US lawyer and immigration specialist to make sure that I wasn't on the wrong side of the law. I had a friend who was a tax consultant and a lawyer and he looked into it. And he's like, you know what, Nat, it's just like the wild, wild west. You're not actually doing anything wrong.

if you're not earning money through a company in the country that you're living in, you don't have to pay tax there as long as you do have your domicile resident where you were. So I was a citizen of New Zealand, and so therefore that's where I paid tax. But because I hadn't lived here at that point for over three years, I didn't actually have to pay tax in New Zealand. So I ended up paying tax nowhere, mainly because I was just earning online. So I wasn't earning income through companies. Obviously, if I'd been living in Singapore and I'd got a job as a consultant to a

Singapore company, I would have absolutely had to pay tax. But because I was essentially a citizen of nowhere, that's just how it worked out. And I remember, like, checking back in with the lawyers every year or so just saying, am I still on the right side of the law? Because this seems pretty strange. But that's why so many people do become digital nomads, because depending on which country you were born in, it can be really, really beneficial. And it does also mean that you have to keep moving all the time, but I was doing that

naturally anyway. The minute you stay longer than three months somewhere, then things change. and also, as I said, depending on where you were born, which country you're a citizen in, where you've normally been paying taxes. For example, I know people from Europe who still had to pay taxes regardless of how long they'd been away because of the setup of their country. I just happened to be lucky that New Zealand was more flexible on that. You're a New Zealand citizen, but you used a US-based tax lawyer?

Why? Just because he was my friend actually and he was there, and I think a lot of the people who were coming up against any challenges were from the US. I also did talk to somebody back in New Zealand. I talked to a bunch of people at time, but they were just a little bit more clued up on it because I think a lot more people from the US were becoming location independent at that time. And now it's a lot more common. There's so many lawyers who understand it.

But it's still a little bit like the Wild West, like so many countries are still trying to figure out what to do with it. And I think they've talked about a global tax for people who travel full time. There's just so many ways that the law doesn't account for people being a lot more mobile and for, yeah, remote workers. So I think it's going to continue to change and there'll definitely be things that get put down. But the way in which the law moves is a lot slower than the way in which we tend to. So it's a really interesting space to be in. On any occasion when you had to put down an address on a form, what would you put down? I would just switch.

I would often put friends addresses if I was in Canada or my address when I lived there. Obviously in US a friend's address that they were okay with that. I always check in with them. I also used a couple of global companies where you can have an address anywhere in the world and they'll actually receive your mail for you, sort it. So it'll get sent to them, they'll sort it, they'll scan things, they'll send it back to you, say, what do you want us to do with this? But they'd give you a physical address in the meantime.

Also, I just changed everything over to be received by email where possible. But you're right, that was the thing that used to stump me was like, what's your local phone number and address? And I'd be like, hmm, that's really tricky. It's my suitcase. And that just doesn't work for banks and legal institutions. So, yeah, often I'd have a few good friends or I'd use a service where I was actually paying a monthly subscription to have a phone number and an address.

And it was just fascinating to me sometimes. I couldn't keep up with which number. And I used to ring a bank sometimes, they'd be like, can you, you know, when you forget your security code and they'd be like, what's your address? And I'd be like, hmm, is it this? And they'd be like, no. And I'll be like, wait, what about this one? They'd be like, yep, that's it.

And what's your phone number? And I'd be like, oh, crap, it was always the same. Pretty amusing. Being a citizen of nowhere, I tell you that. Or a citizen of the world, I used to like to call it. What has been your experience of being an Airbnb host from halfway around the world? You mentioned your Airbnb is in Portugal and you're currently in New Zealand. I love it because I've been a big Airbnb fan for ages. Like I used it all the time when I was traveling. Way back when it used to be a lot cheaper than it is now and a lot more rudimentary. Then I put my, yeah, Portugal house on Airbnb and we actually have our house that we're in right now. Airbnb and I have an apartment in town that I use it. And I freaking love it. It's amazing for, you know, having a regular income, but also being able to meet some really fantastic people.

In Portugal, in the instance, it just felt such a waste to have a beautiful house sitting there empty. So when I finally put it on in June, it's been booked almost back to back right up until November, which is stunning to me. And then I can block out times when I want to be there and friends can also be there if they give me a heads up. And then other times people can be using it. And the one thing that has changed my life on that front is I hired a lady over there from here through Facebook friends who needed a job and had worked in boutique hotels and could no longer work in them because she had some ear thing and they just wouldn't allow her to work. So she can work for me now. She does the cleaning. She welcomes the guest.

She sorts things out. I recently had to have it made legal for renting and she got fire extinguishes and the gas thing fixed. And she's just amazing. And I just pay her through PayPal and she just goes in and tells me what needs to be. be done and does it and she even manages the Airbnb messaging as well. So yeah, I wouldn't be able to do it without her. It's fantastic. Well, I think those are all of my questions. Is there anything that I haven't asked about that you would like to emphasize? Well, I guess the only thing I'd say for people who are listening is I really, since this is all about, you know, it's a money-based

podcast is really understanding what your version of financial freedom means. Because for me, when I was starting out, it was, I wasn't all about money, but I had none. So it was pretty important. And then as I've gone on, I've definitely had moments where my business was doing super, super well. But it also felt like it was at some expense to my life and just the amount of things that I was able to do. You know, you're working so hard, you often forget things. And then travel became more important. And then the business sort of cruised along. And it's just fascinating now that we have this amazing property and a big lifestyle block or, you know, several acres of land.

That for me, it's all about the lifestyle now. Just having enough money to pay the expenses and live a wonderful life. And a minimalist life is actually more than enough for me. So I think just for people are listening, I love the way you go through different stages in your life. But at the end of the day, financial freedom, I think, is being able to support yourself and maybe a few family and friends. And you don't need much more than that.

Anything more than that I found in life is just a bit of a burden. So as long as you can invest in others, you can do the things that you need to do. Not living a lavish life is actually one of the most freeing things that I've ever experienced. Nice. Well, thank you so much, Natalie. people find you if they'd like to know more? I would love for them to come across to natalie sysen.com. I'm also at natalie sysen on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, all those wonderful places. So love for them to reach out there. Thank you so much, Natalie, for this awesome interview. What are some of the key takeaways? Well,

here are a few. Number one, any entrepreneurial venture, whether you're starting a side business or investing in real estate, anything that you do to improve your station in life is going to require guts. I take my hat off to every single person who's ever started a venture, even if it didn't work out because it takes guts. And that's absolutely right. It takes guts. It takes courage.

You know those motivational posters that are normally kind of tacky? I saw one the other day that I actually really liked. It was the image of an iceberg. The ice that you could see above the water, the tip of the iceberg, that's visible showed success. But then everything under the water was risk, uncertainty, self-doubt, worry, fear, sleepless nights, anxiety. That was the bulk of the iceberg. It was all the stuff that was under the surface that most people can't see.

Most people only see the success. But behind every success story, there are a ton of sleepless nights. And that was one of the big takeaways that I got from Natalie's, story that was something that was really reinforced when she talked about being down to her last $17 and not being sure if she would be able to pay rent the following month and how there's no better motivator than knowing that you have to make this work because you are just not willing to go back into the traditional corporate workforce. I thought that was very powerful and that was one of the big lessons or takeaways that I got from her story. Lesson number two, and this might sound like a bit of a

tangent. But did you notice how when she was telling that story and she talked about being down to her last $17, there was no discussion about putting things on a credit card. There was absolutely no discussion about going into debt. I didn't expressly ask her about this. And I actually regret now that I didn't ask her about this because it would have been a great follow of question. But the implication was that she's paying for everything in cash. And even when she's down to her last 17 and isn't sure how she's going to eat, she's still not going into debt for that. I thought that was pretty cool. I don't know why.

I didn't think to ask her about that other than I guess it would have been sounded a little ridiculous to be like, oh, did you ever think about just putting your groceries on a credit card? You know, I do think that that's what a lot of people would have done in that situation. And so that was kind of another thing. Man, dude, I'm really kicking myself for not asking her about that. But that's, I guess, a takeaway from this is that even in your worst moments, committing to not going into debt, as Natalie described, forces you to hustle, forces you to be like, all right, this has to happen.

I have to make this work. How do I do it? It's not a question of if, it's a question of how. Oh, and BTW, for anybody who's curious about what Natalie said about taxes, if you are a U.S. citizen, I'm afraid I've got some bad news for you. If you're a U.S. citizen or a resident alien, your worldwide income is subject to U.S. income tax. regardless of where you reside. There are a few differences, and in the show notes, I'll link to the IRS document on taxpayers living abroad, but just FYI, in case we're starting to get really

excited. Natalie has a different tax situation because she's a New Zealand citizen. For those of us who are U.S. citizens, the rules for filing income, estate, and gift tax returns, and for paying estimated taxes are pretty much the same. So, eh. Takeaway number three, is that with enough gumption, you can make anything work. I mean, hearing Natalie describe how much of a pain in the butt it is to just fill out an application, fill out a form because she doesn't have an address, she doesn't have a phone number. Hearing her talk, she made it sound easy,

but signing legal documents, signing mortgage documents in Portuguese, when you don't speak that language, that cannot possibly be easy. Heck, it's hard to do that in English. So you know that for every single little thing she does, ranging from opening a bank account to paying taxes to buying a house to sending that nation's equivalent of 1099 miscellaneous forms to independent contractors, to filling out W9 forms or that nation's equivalent thereof, I mean, every single thing she does is so much more complicated when you don't have a home address. and yet that doesn't deter her. She finds a way to make it work. Yes, things may take longer. Yes, things may be more of a pain in the butt.

I mean, you heard her describe trying to get a mortgage for her property in Portugal, how many people, how many different bankers she had to talk to. But she doesn't let that stop her. She will go and talk to three, four, five, however many bankers she needs to talk to to to make it happen. She will do it in order to make it happen. And so that's chief takeaway number three. Almost anything is doable if you've got the gumption and the persistence to keep at it until it happens.

In other words, things may not be easy, but those difficult things are still worth doing. In fact, often, those difficult things are the most worth doing. So those are three major takeaways that I got from this conversation with Natalie. By the way, I'd like to explain why I asked Natalie to tell that story about her father in 2015. and I was not just being gratuitously prying, and I hope it did not come off that way. The reason that I asked for that and the reason that I was so happy that she shared that story is because, as many of you know, my parents and I immigrated to the United States about 35 years ago during the Reagan administration. So we're very new to this country, relatively speaking. The rest of our family, grandparents, uncles, aunts, cousins, they all live back in Kathmandu, Nepal, or at least they did.

over the span of 30 years, as would happen in any family, people are born, people get married, people get sick, people die. But, you know, over the span of 30 years, in any family, that's what's going to happen. And of course, it happened in ours. As we were here, you know, my grandparents died. I have a cousin who died of cancer at the age of 27. All of that happened back in Kathmandu. And seeing that, as a young child, instilled in me a deep desire to have the first

freedom and the flexibility and the funds to be able to drop everything, buy a plane ticket, and fly halfway across the world to be with my family when they're sick. And that, to me, is so much of what financial independence is about. It's not just about drinking pinia coladas on the beach. It's not just about being able to ski on a Wednesday. Yeah, those things are fun. But you know what's even better? One of my sisters lives in Kathmandu.

She had a C-section in December for her first child. If I were still employed at the newspaper that I used to work for, I would only have two weeks a vacation per year, which is not enough time to fly to Kathmandu and be an aunt. But now I don't have that limitation anymore. Now I can do that. To me, that's what this is really about. So that was the reason why I asked Natalie to share that story about being in Germany

and getting the news and dropping everything and flying to New Zealand because I understand exactly what that is, why that matters so much. And thank you to Natalie for sharing that because that's a very personal story. And thank you, all of you who are listening who do understand the meaning behind financial independence. This is why I get so passionate about this topic. I would love to know what you think. Head on over to afford anything. com slash episode one, one, three. That's episode 113. I'd love to know what stood out to you. What were your takeaways? Also, you could leave your comments on Instagram. I'm there at Paula Pant. And one of my goals for this year is to post on Instagram at least once a day and so far so good.

And hopefully those posts will be motivating and inspirational and you may actually learn something. So please come follow me on Instagram at Paula Pant. That's P-A-U-L-A-P-A-N-T. If you enjoyed today's show, please share it with a friend. Tell a friend about it. Also, head to your favorite major podcast player to subscribe and leave a review while you're there. Thank you so much for listening. My name is Paula Pan. This is the Afford Anything podcast. I'll catch you next week.