Afford Anything - How to Ask Better Questions, with Charles Duhigg

Episode Date: August 7, 2020

#269: Are you scared to take the first step toward the habits that you want to build? Do you believe in your ability to change? Or are you completely lost as to where to start? Charles Duhigg, the Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist, author of the best-selling books The Power of Habit and Smarter Faster Better, and host of the How To! podcast, joins us to tackle these questions. By asking “why” instead of “how,” layer-by-layer we can reveal the factors that truly hold us back from taking action. For more, go to https://affordanything.com/episode269 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You can afford anything but not everything. Every choice that you make is a trade-off against something else. Saying yes to one thing implicitly means. Saying no to some other opportunity. And that does not just apply to your money. It applies to any limited resource you need to manage. Like your time, your focus, your energy, your attention. This opens up two questions.

First, what matters most to you? Second, how do you align your daily decisions to reflect that? Answering these two questions is a lifetime practice. and that is what this podcast is here to explore. My name is Paula Pan. I am the host of the Afford Anything podcast. Normally, we are a weekly podcast. We air our full episodes, typically on Mondays.

But once a month, on the first Friday of the month, we air a special First Friday bonus episode. Welcome to the August 2020, First Friday bonus episode. Today, Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist Charles Duhigg is here to explain how to do a better job of asking how. Charles Duhigg has had an impressive career. He graduated from Yale University, then got an MBA from Harvard, and then became a journalist, first for the L.A. Times and later for the New York Times.

While he was at the New York Times, he won a Pulitzer Prize. After that, he decided to start writing books, and so he wrote The Power of Habit, which became such a mega bestseller that it spent more than three years on the New York Times bestseller list. He then wrote another book called Smarter, Faster, Faster, Better, which became an instant New York Times bestseller as well. Both of his books cover why we do what we do and how we can be more effective at changing our habits and changing our behaviors, because when we change those habits and behaviors, we fundamentally change everything about our lives. Charles Duhigg now hosts a podcast from Slate called the How-to podcast, where he continues to explore habit formation and the science of productivity. He has a deep understanding of human nature and the science behind why we do what we do. Today, he joins the Afford Anything podcast to explain why asking how can be best answered by asking why.

Here he is, Charles Duhigg. Hi, Charles. Hey, how are you? I'm great. How are you doing? I'm good. I'm good, thanks. Charles, on the how to podcast, you've covered a huge range of topics, including more conventional topics like how to lose weight, how to stop procrastinating, how to protect yourself from coronavirus, as well as more obscure topics like how to rob a bank.

Are there common themes or universal attributes that apply to all of these to how to do anything? Yeah, I think so. I mean, I think there's a couple of sort of big ticket items and sort of like smaller bore items. I think on the top level, one of the things that comes across again and again, and for folks who aren't familiar with the show, what happens is that we're basically like an advice show by an investigative journalist. So each week we have a listener who's written in with a question and we have them on the show to describe to us what they're struggling. with, and then we find an expert, the expert, to help them solve their problem, and we have a conversation with both of those people in order to figure out how to do whatever the listener is hoping to do. A lot of people who contact and reach out to us are scared that they can't accomplish what they most want to accomplish, whether that be losing a lot of weight or getting a new job,

or finding a job that makes them happy, or being able to keep their kids off screens. And what we find is that oftentimes that fear is the thing that's standing in the way to taking the first step. The truth of the matter is that we know so much about human behavior now, particularly in the last 20 years, we've been living through this revolution and understanding human psychology and human behavior and how change occurs. We know that we can change almost any behavior. We can improve almost any behavior. We can make almost anything happen. The question is, where do you start and do you believe that you're going to be able to make that change? And that's where the experts come in. And not only do they give sort of practical tips about how to attack this problem, but more importantly, it's just nice to have someone say, look, you can actually do this, right?

Like thousands of people have done this. You know, something as hard as like losing weight. There are literally 10,000 people in the world today, 10,000 Americans today who will start losing weight today and will lose 30 or 40 or 50 pounds and keep it off for the rest of their lives. this change is possible. The key is you have to know how to start. You have to understand what's going on and believe that the change is possible. And then in a more practical sense,

what's interesting to me is that we do sometimes see these comments coming up again and again and again from the experts. And two in particular that I didn't anticipate would come up as frequently as they do is, number one, sleep more. Like this comes up again and again and again, that people who have the best emotional regulation,

the people who can marshal their own self-discipline and willpower and own intelligence best are the people who are preparing themselves by sleeping well because that means that your body and your mind is ready to do that. And number two, just something as simple as having a plan can make all the difference in the world that oftentimes take procrastination. The key to fixing procrastination is to have a plan for what happens when you get that urge to procrastinate and to have a plan to allow yourself to decompress and have some off time where it's okay to surf the web or to look at Facebook or to watch a TV show, as long as you have a plan in place to know how you're going to stop.

What if you have a plan, but you have low plan adherence? Well, that gets to the willpower question, right? Because that's kind of at the core of it. So there's two things there. First of all, you need the right kind of plan. Right. So if my plan is starting tomorrow, I'm only going to eat 400 calories a day and I'm going to lose 20 pounds in two weeks, that's a bad plan. It's a bad plan because first of all, it doesn't actually tell me what to do. It's just a goal as opposed to a plan. And number two, it's an unrealistic plan. And that's where experts come in is because experts help us figure out what is a realistic plan.

What is the bandwidth of realism that we ought to be inside of? And so, for instance, in losing weight, it could be something as simple as, okay, tomorrow for breakfast, instead of having anything that's carbohydratey, I'm just going to eat fruit. And I'm not going to think about calories for the next two weeks. I'm not going to weigh myself for the next two weeks. I'm just going to eat fruit in the morning. to convince myself that I can actually change my diet. Or if I want to take up an exercise routine, we know that the way to change habits

is that you just do one small thing. It's called the science of small wins. And so that's key, is to have a plan that's actually a workable plan as opposed to just a goal or an aspiration. But number two, you also have to set yourself up so that your willpower allows you to do that plan. And willpower is like a muscle.

That's why sleep is so important is because the more that we build up that willpower muscle by giving ourselves a rest, by removing ourselves from easy temptations, the more willpower we have to devote to making that plan become real. And then finally, what we know from the science of habit formation, because I wrote this book called The Power of Habit, about the science behind how habits function within our minds, is that you need to give yourself a reward when you do something good, because your brain learns to associate that reward with that behavior and a cue and to make it easier and easier and easier. So if you, let's say your goal is I want to start running a mile a day.

Well, for the first week, what you should do is you should just put on your running clothes and walk around the block. And when you get back from walking around the block, you should give yourself a reward, like a nice long shower, like a checkmark on your calendar to show that you did what you said you were going to do today. Eventually, what you'll find is you start walking around the block and you're like, gosh, a block is so easy to do. I think I'm going to go two blocks this time. And then two weeks later, suddenly you're running a mile every single morning.

The power of habit was an excellent book, by the way. I've read it at least two or three times. And now every time I look at a chocolate chip cookie, I think of you. Oh, thanks. I appreciate it. How have your ideas on habits and productivity evolved since you wrote that book and since you wrote smarter, faster, better? I don't know that they've evolved that much. I think that those books kind of capture my core book. beliefs and basically what we know from the science of habit formation and the science of what creates deep productivity. But I think that one of the things that I've been really impressed by is that just being exposed to the right ideas can actually change people's behavior. So I've probably received, I don't know, in fact, let me look at my email account. I've received, since I wrote The Power of Habit, I've received 23,921 emails from readers.

And the reason I know that is because I respond to every single. email. So I've got this folder where they're all located. And the thing that those emails have really impressed on me is that oftentimes people want to change. And simply being exposed to the right idea helps them figure out how to make that change become real. Some of the letters are these heartbreaking letters from like someone who says like, you know, I had a drinking problem for 11 years. And then I read the power of habit and I figured out how to stop drinking. There's actually a chapter in there that talks about sort of the science behind alcohol. Anonymous.

Look, somebody who's been drinking for 11 years, reading a book does not actually make them stop drinking. The thing that makes them stop drinking is them. Is them taking their willpower and their mind and applying it to this question and this problem? But oftentimes, we need a spark. We need an idea to help us organize our actions and our beliefs and our mind. And we know the power of these ideas throughout history, right?

I mean, this nation, the American nation, is based on the power of an idea that we ought to have a democracy, and people went and they laid down their lives for that. Throughout history, I mean, we're seeing with Black Lives Matter right now, the power of an idea. Ideas are really, really important, and I've been convinced at how powerful ideas can be when you give the right idea to someone who's ready to hear it, it can change their entire life. It can change how they behave. And ultimately, if we change how we behave, we change who we are. And that's really powerful.

First, quick follow-up question to the 23,000 emails. How on earth, so I just did the math as you were talking, if it took you only two minutes per email, we're talking 766 hours that you've spent just responding to reader emails. How on earth have you... It's been about eight years, right? It's been a while. Also, two minutes for email is kind of a long time per email. I would say, you know, some of them I'm able to deal with in like 30 seconds because they're like, they like ask. some simple question or they just say, hey, I liked your book and I can say,

thanks so much. Great to hear from you. So I would say I do it in little doses every day. You mentioned fear is at the root of many people's obstacles to trying to create some type of meaningful change. What is rooted in that fear? Where does that come from? And does that shift as a person moves along the journey? Are there different forms of fear? Yeah, I think so. So I think it's fear and discomfort. You know, there's this theory in psychology. that I think is actually very powerful, which is that, and this is like, you know, sort of like one-on-one psychology, like clinical psychology, that people are attracted to the familiar, even when it's unpleasant, because it's comfortable. Right. So there's always been this question, like, why do people do things that they don't like doing? If someone, if they know that they feel bad after they eat a piece of pie, why do they continue eating pie? Why do people return to the, these dysfunctional relationships. If you know that your mother is going to make you feel bad,

why do you keep on calling your mother? And there's a lot of answers there, right? It's complicated. But one of the answers, I think, is that people like what is familiar because it feels comfortable. And things that are new are actually uncomfortable. And as a result, we tend to shy away from them. And a great example of this, I think, is exercise. So one of the things that we know is that for people like me, it's like, I was not a high school athlete. I don't know. Were you a... Nope, not at all.

Not even a little bit. So very often for people like you and I, when we want to start exercising for the first time, there's all this discomforting stuff that's a little bit scary. And fear is almost too big a word to use for it, but it's not inappropriate. And what it is is it's like, look, I don't know which clothes to wear for exercising, right? And I don't know, if I go out the door, I don't know which path to take to go for a run. And I think I'll look stupid running. And I'm not even certain how to do this.

And so none of those are big enough to be like things that we would be like, oh, I'm afraid of running. Right. There are all these mild discomforts that when added together make it much easier to not start exercising. But what's interesting is that once you recognize that that discomfort exists, it oftentimes takes the power away from it. So if someone says, like, I don't want to go running because I don't know what clothes to wear, then that's easy, right? You just go on the web and go to Amazon and say like running shorts. Or I don't want to go running because I don't know what path to take. Well, then just go to Google Maps or literally just do a block around your house or just Google like running trails near my house.

There are things that aren't big enough that we think of them as fears, but they play in the same part of our brain as where fear plays. Discomfort and fear are very closely associated neurologically. And so as a result, we have the same fight or flight reaction that we would have to something that is truly fearful. And that's why we try and avoid those behaviors. So it's not necessarily that we're afraid of change in the way that we traditionally think about fear. It's that we find change to be discomforting because it's unfamiliar. And we just have a natural pervency, all of us do, to go towards what is familiar, even if it's something that we don't like very much. But the way that you undo the power of that is you just say to yourself, actually, the reason I'm avoiding this is because it's unfamiliar and therefore it's kind of discomforting.

But I can make it familiar very, very easily. You mentioned earlier that when we change our habits and our actions, then we change who we are. To what degree is it effective to use that in reverse, to form an identity, for example, I form the identity, I am a runner before you've ever run your first month. mile. That's an interesting question. I don't know. Do you feel like you've done that in your life? Are there times when you've chosen identity and then like sort of the reality has followed

afterwards? I suppose when I started blogging, I definitely called myself a blogger. I mean, technically I did have a blog. Just nobody read it. So I called myself a blogger for a long time before I had any type of a meaningful audience. I think that that's totally fair. what we know about the way that human psychology works is, and there's a school of research about stated preferences and revealed preferences, which is really, really interesting.

Because oftentimes, if you ask people what they like, they'll say something different than what they actually do. So sometimes we're not totally aware of who we are, and we can see that in people's behavior. One of the things that we know is that there is an aspect of our self-identity that is kind of objective that looks at our own behavior and determines who we are based on how we behave rather than based on what we say or what we do. And so oftentimes, for instance, when someone is struggling with something, one of the things that you can ask them to help them figure out

why they're struggling with it is if you had to prove to me that X was the right decision, beyond the arguments you would make based simply on your previous behavior, prove to me that X is the right decision based on other things you have done in the past. And that'll help people oftentimes figure out what is their revealed preferences, who they actually are. And I think what you're saying is that it can work in reverse. And I think that's right is that oftentimes we can say, I am X. And there's such an impulse in our mind to live up to our words, to prove our self-reve, right, that we'll begin behaving in a certain way simply to prove to ourselves that what we said before was true.

If we don't, there's this thing known as cognitive dissonance, which is what when we say one thing and we behave differently, we tend to feel psychologically like we're in crisis. And so I think if you say something, you know, you sort of this fake it until you make it thing, that if you say something, then it's easier for you to fill in the blank by actually doing something to prove that what you just said is true. Now, here's the key, though, is that if you do that too frequently and you don't, you don't back it up with actions, you'll begin to distrust yourself. And so it's important that people use this power wisely. I should not say, for instance, I am an Olympic athlete, because I never be an Olympic athlete.

No matter how many times I say it, I'm never going to be good enough to be an Olympic athlete. But on the other hand, I oftentimes say to my wife, I'm going to lose 20 pounds. before I have started losing any weight whatsoever, and saying it and putting that flag in the ground, that makes it easier for me to make the behavior changes that I need to lose 20 pounds. But the key is I say I'm going to lose 20 pounds, not I'm going to lose 70 pounds.

Because I know that saying 70 pounds is unrealistic, and I don't want my brain to think that I boast without having the capacity to back it up. We'll come back to this episode after this word from our sponsors. The holidays are right around the corner, and if you're hosting, you're going to need to get prepared. Maybe you need bedding, sheets, linens. Maybe you need serveware and cookware. And of course, holiday decor, all the stuff to make your home a great place to host during the holidays.

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Big Bank muscle, fintech hustle. That's your commercial payments of fifth third better. You studied business. What led you into the field of exploring habits, productivity, exploring topics such as these? Yeah. After I graduated from college, I started a company back in Albuquerque, New Mexico, where I grew up. And then I went to Harvard to get my MBA. And I decided, well, I was at Harvard to go and become a journalist.

And so the jobs that I was offered were being a business journalist, which was great. I actually really like writing about business, because I think that business is important, and it's a place where journalism can make a big difference. And most of us actually do business, right? Even if we're a blogger or a podcaster or a doctor, we're actually involved in business. And so it's something that touches everyone's lives. But as part of that, I went to Iraq as a reporter for the Los Angeles Times before I'd moved to the New York Times.

And when I was in Iraq, I was sort of talking, I was talking to this one army major. And the thing that is interesting about business is that covering business, writing about it, is that you're really writing about systems, right? So you're writing about, oftentimes the reason why one company is successful and another one fails has a lot to do with the systems within that company. or if you're looking at an industry, an industry is oftentimes a system. It's larger than any one person or anyone business. And I think systems are really, really interesting and important because systems tend to shape our lives in invisible ways. And so when I was in Iraq, I was talking to this army

major, and he basically told me that, like, the reason why the U.S. Army is so successful is because they think about systems constantly. And they think about systems in terms of people's habits. He told me that the U.S. Army is the greatest habit change machine on the face of the planet. And when he started saying this, I realized that, of course, he was right. He was a genius. Because, like, your instant when someone is shooting at you is to run away. But the Army teaches you this habit to shoot back. Or it's even as something as simple as when you're now in from war zones, you can call

and email your spouse every night. So the Army basically realized at some point we have to teach our troops good communication habits because if they're not communicating well with their families and they're get in fights with their spouses. And then if they're in a fight with their spouse, when they're on patrol, they're distracted. So they just said, we're going to teach everyone good communication habits. And it worked. They taught them how to have habits of good communication.

When the Army Major was explaining this to me, I just thought it was fascinating. And so when I came back, I started looking into the science of what we know about how habits function. And it turns out that, again, it's a structure science. We know a lot about how the brain creates habits. And it wasn't that different from the reporting I was doing about business. Because at the root, it's all about the same thing. It's all about these structures that surround us in our lives that we oftentimes don't see or inside our brains that have a huge impact on how we behave. Right.

I've heard you describe business as a way of thinking. And it sounds like from what you've just said that that system type of thinking is what business creates. It's the question of how do I create a structure that works in any context. That's right. There's these two economists or psychologist economists named Traversky and Connman. Connman won a Nobel Prize a couple years ago. They basically created behavioral economics. And one of their big findings is that the human brain works by relying on what are known as heuristics,

which are basically these like rules of thumb or scripts that we rely on to make decision-making easier. Because if we had to make a decision every single time we encountered something new, it'd be exhausting. So instead we have these little shortcuts inside our head. If someone smiles at me, I assume that they're friendly and I smile back. That's a heuristic. If I've eaten three tarts before and I enjoyed them, then this other tart in front of me, even though it might look different and come from a different baker, it's probably something I'm going to like. And when you think about it, what these heuristics are, is they are these structures, these systems

that allow us to make our way through the world without having to think hard about every single question. And it turns out these heuristics don't just exist in my brain and your brain. These heuristics exist in society, too. America as a society has basically said, we believe that justice is more important than many other things, including, for instance, security and safety. So you could definitely increase security and safety

by locking up a bunch of people indiscriminately, but we believe that justice is more important. And that's a heuristic we rely on. And so we say, look, if the police go around or the government goes around arresting people without any good reason, that's not something that we're going to get behind. These systems, these heuristics,

these structures around us, they imprint how we behave and who we are in ways that we oftentimes don't even recognize at the time. And it's really, really interesting, first of all to point out the structures that exist, the systems exist, and second of all, to question them, because sometimes they've just become habits that we shouldn't be relying on anymore. As you describe these mental shortcuts, it sounds to me like a blend of decisions that have been made, such as I've decided that tarts taste delicious and therefore that mental model forms.

But with the justice example, that sounds more like a value or an ideal. So to what extent do heuristics combine the world of philosophies, values, ideals with the world of decision-making behavior, cognitive shortcuts? Oh, all the time. So like this idea that, like, justice is a good thing. I mean, first of all, we know that that's not universal, right? And many other countries, they've made different decisions. And they've said safety and security is more important than justice. So we will make it easier to arrest people and lock them up.

and citizens support that. When we say that justice is a value and ideal, I mean, that's true, right? It is in a way that this tart is good, isn't. But I don't know that many people are sitting down and saying, like, you know, I believe in justice because I've thought through all the implications of the Rawlsian approach to, like, you know, to adjust a world. I think it's a habit. It's a habit that we learn.

And it's a good habit. It's a habit that when we take a step. back and we think about it, we say, yeah, I agree with that. But just because it's a value, or just because it's ephemeral, or just because it's grand and important, that doesn't mean it behaves differently than, I've eaten three tarts and I like them, and I should eat a fourth tart. Most of the time, we don't want to have to think hard again and again and again. The truth of matter is also that there are habits that a lot of people disagree with. I mean, there are a good number of people in this country, including very smart people who do

do feel that security and safety is more important than justice. I mean, that's why we had a number of policies for a number of years that can lock up people very indiscriminately. It's a debate, but it's not a debate that every single citizen takes part in every single day. A lot of the work that you do, the books that you've written, are idea-based narratives. They're explorations of concept. While educating people about how to do things, I mean, how to is prescript. How do you fuse being prescriptive with also being open enough to have an intellectual exploration of high-level concepts? Well, so I think that the thing that happens in every conversation is that someone says, comes and they say, I want to understand how to stop procrastinating.

And we bring in an expert, in this case, it was Dan Ariely, the behavioral economist. And what Dan Arioli says is, okay, first of all, to understand how to stop procrastinating, you have to understand why you're procrastinating, right? You have to understand how your brain works and why you have this instinct. And to understand why, I got to ask you a couple of questions. And a lot of those questions are like, you know, how do you spend your time? But also, like, what do you care about? And are you procrastinating because the work you're supposed to be doing is actually boring and you don't care about it? Or are you procrastinating because you're scared of starting the work? You're scared of being successful? Or are you procrastinating because you're worried that

when you actually do the work, it won't be as good as you hope it is. So, like, this distinction between kind of high and low, between high and low thinking and high and low questions, it turns out not to exist that much once you begin really interrogating a behavior or a question. You know, the reasons why we do things and how we stop doing them are not just do X and then Y will occur. It's really try and figure out what X is. like try and understand the world.

Because once you understand how your brain works or how the world works or why you're doing the things you're doing, then changing it is not hard, right? The prescriptive parts of it are not complicated. It's the why parts that are so challenging. And oftentimes the point of the show, how to, is to simply help people understand what why questions they should be confronting. Let's use an example. Like what's a behavior that you wish you could change? I certainly procrastinate.

Okay. Absolutely. Okay. So what's something that you procrastinated about recently? Responding to emails. Okay. Responding to emails. So tell me what happens.

When you sit down and you're like, okay, I got to deal with these emails, you sit down. What stops you from doing it? What are you feeling? I'm feeling frustration because I feel like I'm just playing whack-a-mole, a constant game of whack-a-mole. Right. Okay. So the more emails you send, you know that you're just going to get. get more emails in response, right? Like getting the inbox zero is not about responding the emails,

just about deleting emails. Okay. Yeah. Yes, yes. And I'm feeling decision fatigue because many of the emails require some very minor decision and taken together, it just becomes tiresome. Okay, okay, so let's ask two questions there. Number one, why do you feel like you need to respond to those emails? Well, sometimes they come from people that I work with, or the person on the other end if the exchange needs that so that they can then go on to do their next step. Okay. Sometimes that's the case. Other times it's, uh, actually let's just stick with that.

Yeah. Okay. We'll say the next thing because my guess is there's a couple of behaviors here that we can adopt. Oh, well, and other times it's somebody who's reaching out either to say something very nice or to ask a question or to offer feedback. And, and I do feel that it's valuable to engage with my community. Yeah, no, that's fair. Okay, so let's take the first group, the people who actually you actually have to respond to to make like the world continue spinning. And you said you're feeling decision fatigue. If I was to come to you and I was to take all their questions and I was to put it in a list and we were to sit down and I was just to like run through them as fast as I could and say, do you want to do Wednesday or Thursday? And you say Thursday. And then I said, do you want to red or blue? And you say blue. And I said basically like the simplest choice possible. Does that sound fatiguing to you?

No, that does not. Okay. And I think you're right. Like, all the studies show that that's actually would not be fatiging to you. Because oftentimes when people say, I'm feeling decision fatigue around emails, it's not that they're feeling decision fatigue around the question in the email. They're feeling fatigue around everything that they have to put around the answer. So they have to say like, hey, Jim, thanks so much for your question.

It's a great question. The answer is blue. Look forward to seeing you next Thursday. thanks so much. Exactly. It's actually not decision fatigue. It's emotional management fatigue. You are fatigued managing the emotions of the people that you're corresponding with.

So the way to handle this is just make the decision and send that as simply as possible. And in fact, I do this. Everyone I work with knows this. If they ask me a question, my reply email will just have the answer. It will not have any other pleasantries. And in fact, I used to have a signature that said, if you receive a. a brusque email from me, it is because I am trying to manage a lot of email. Please don't take it personally. And that's why you commented that two minutes per email sounds like a lot.

Yeah, yeah, right. Because like someone says, hey, do you have an answer to X? And I say, yes, here's the link. I'm not doing a lot of emotional management of people. And so this is a good example because the question you asked sort of seemed prosaic, right? Like, how do I deal with email? But the answer is actually like deeper and more interesting, which is you think you have decision fatigue, but you don't. What you have is an emotional management fatigue. And so now that you know that you have emotional management fatigue, is there a way to make that easier? Now, the other thing you can do, honestly, is most of the things that you do for emotional management are the same from person to person. You can also create like an email form that does all

of that that says, hey, thanks so much for your email. It's a really good question. Here's my answer. And then you just fill in the blank. Thank you so much for reaching out. the same thing with the readers who reach out to you. So one of the reasons I'm able to deal with all these emails is because a lot of what I send is stuff where I just hit one button and it's all written. And it populates the email with 90% of the text I want to write. And then I just fill in the other 10%. And, you know, I worried that readers would dislike that, that it would seem robotic or formulate

to them. But they don't. Oftentimes what they want is they just want to know that they've been heard. And so literally an email that says, hey, thanks so much. it's so great hearing from you. I really appreciate it. Please let me know your other thoughts, Charles. That is satisfying whether it comes from me typing it or whether it comes from me hitting a button because I've already typed it once and it automatically appears. Right. And I have tried that in the past with canned responses, but then that hasn't worked for me in the past only because it felt like

each canned response needed to be modified just enough that I ended up unautomating the system. So I guess then the next question becomes, A, calling them canned responses sort of like betrays. Oh, that's what Gmail calls them. Okay, right. Or whatever. I mean, like, so if you have 30 of those, is it really a canned response? And if you ask yourself, why do I feel like I need to modify this? Which part of this is actually important?

Is there a way to figure out which parts of those are meaningful to you and to the recipient that actually, once you identify that can make things easier. The question is really a why question. We think of all these things as how questions. And the name of my show is how to with Charles Duhigg, right? Because we want to solve people's problems in a very how to practical sense. But what you realize is that most how to questions, they really are why questions. And once you answer the why, the how to is really straightforward and simple to figure out. Why are readers reaching out to you? What do they actually want to get from you. Why do you feel bad sitting these canned responses? Is there something that you can do to make a canned response, not a canned response, but actually a piece of who you are? Is there a way to

identify that actually each email only needs like half a sentence? So it's much easier for you to write that half a sentence instead of writing the whole email afresh. When you figure out why, that's when all of a sudden the how becomes pretty easy to unfold. And it seems looping back to the first question that I asked at the start of this conversation about universal threads that link all of this diaspora of how-to topics together, it seems that that is a big piece of it in order to answer how, you need to answer why. Yeah, yeah, that if you start with why, like oftentimes everything unfolds, And it's not just my show that that's true of.

It's also true of my writing. You know, how do you change a habit? I can synopsize that in two pages. But the reason it's a 200-page book is because the whys are the really interesting, important parts. Why does this habit exist in your life? Why does your brain behave the way that it does? Once you understand those things, then the how is easy. What is the next habit that you yourself are going to change or would like to change?

Oh, that's a good question. So I just moved to California, literally like last week. Congratulations. Thanks, thanks. And I've been living in New York for 16 years. So it's a pretty big change. So I think that the big habit that I'm trying to change is to figure out how to incorporate kind of, actually I love surfing. So how to incorporate surfing into my life in a way that does not.

at the state, my productivity, and my schedule. And then basically just kind of how to live how to live in California, because it's a very different place than New York. And so I think the habits we want to build is like, how do we make the most of this opportunity as a family so we take advantage of it. Oh, excellent. Well, I look forward to a follow-up interview at some point in the future when we find the answers to those questions. Me too. Thank you for spending this time with us. Where can the listeners find you if they want to hear more about you? Sure, absolutely. If they just Google Charles Duhigg, I'll come up, or I'm on Twitter at C. Duhigg. Or if they want to subscribe to the podcast, which I would love to invite them to not only subscribe, but to send me their questions that they need problem solving.

If they just look anywhere they listen to podcast to how to with Charles Duhigg, and if they want to send me their questions about things that we can help them solve, our email address is how to at slate.com. Excellent. Well, thank you so much. Thank you. We'll come back to the show in just a second, but first, welcome back. So what are the key takeaways that we got from this conversation with Charles Duhigg? Here are five. Number one, create a solid, realistic plan, and sleep more. I opened the interview by asking Charles if there was any universal thread between all of these disparate how-to topics that he covers on his podcast.

And he says that that underlying thread is that most experts recommend get a Good quality sleep, regardless of what you're trying to achieve, regardless of what you're trying to create or do in this world. Get a good night's sleep because that is the foundation of everything. And also, create a solid, realistic plan that you can easily follow. Getting more sleep leads to better emotional regulation, which can strengthen your willpower. And having a solid, realistic plan gives you a roadmap for what to do, how to apply that willpower. You need the right kind of plan. So if my plan is starting tomorrow, I'm only going to eat 400 calories a day and I'm going to lose 20 pounds in two weeks, that's a bad plan. It's a bad plan because first of all, it doesn't

actually tell me what to do. It's just a goal as opposed to a plan. In this quote, Charles compares two potential goals that a person could set. The bad example of a goal, as he outlines, is to state that you want to go down to eating 400 calories a day so that you can lose 20 pounds in two weeks. It's a bad example of a goal because, A, it's not an actual plan, it's not specific. It doesn't tell you what to eat. And B, it's certainly not realistic or healthy. So that's a bad example of a plan. But a good example, he goes on to say, is to set a plan of only eating fruit in the morning.

Let's say that currently in the morning you eat Pop-Tarts and sugary cereals. And so starting tomorrow, for the next two weeks, you're going to swap that out with just fresh fruit. and you're going to commit to making that one small change every morning for the next 14 mornings. Well, that is realistic and it's a specific plan. Swapping out your Pop-Tart for a piece of fruit is something that you can actually follow through on. And ultimately, making a decision like that and doing it often enough that it becomes a habit will, over the long term, lead to your goal of shedding some body weight. Now remember, if you have low plan adherence or if you're prone to procrastination, plan that procrastination into your schedule.

Allow your brain to take breaks every now and again. Plan for what those breaks will be. Will you give yourself 30 minutes to scroll the internet mindlessly? Will you give yourself 30 minutes better yet to get up from your desk and go take a walk, go be outdoors, get some fresh air, get some movement? If you do that, if you plan those breaks, if you plan for your own nature, you'll be able to get back on track quicker and you'll be able to make the plan that fits you realistic, truly realistic. And so that is key takeaway number one. Create a solid realistic plan and no matter what it is, sleep more because sleep is the foundation of achieving any goal. Key takeaway number two.

Reward yourself. When you're forming a new habit, it helps to reach. reward yourself because your brain learns to associate the reward with the behavior or habit. It's not always enough to have a cue that triggers the desired behavior. Sometimes we need to follow that up with something that rewards ourselves. Let's say your goal is I want to start running a mile a day. Well, for the first week, what you should do is you should just put on your running clothes and walk around the block. And when you get back from walking around the block, you should give yourself a reward, like a nice long shower, like a checkmark on your calendar to show that you

did what you said you were going to do today. Now here is one important thing to remember. Gretchen Rubin, who is also a New York Times bestselling author and who was our guest in episode 40 of the Afford Anything podcast, talked about the notion of rewards, but she issued a more nuanced recommendation. She advised that rewards should be closely tied to the habit that you want to form. So, for example, if you're trying to build habits, that help you become healthier. If you're trying to build a running habit, then if you go out on that run in the morning, don't come home and reward yourself with a slice of cake. Instead, reward yourself with an item that will help you achieve your goal, such as if you run every day for a

month, you will give yourself a new pair of running shoes, or a nicer pair of running shorts, or as Charles Duhigg said, in the examples that he cited, a nice long shower, a long, relaxed, luxurious shower that you can enjoy. Those are the types of rewards that are aligned with the type of habit that you want to form. So reward yourself and choose a reward that is fitting. That is key takeaway number two. Key takeaway number three, select realistic identities. Charles says that it can be a great idea to choose an identity that reaffirms your commitment

to the habits that you're trying to build. If you do this, however, you need to do this. choose a realistic identity. So for example, Charles wouldn't ever describe himself as an Olympic athlete. He wouldn't start thinking of himself in those terms because that's just not achievable for him. If you start to identify with an unrealistic alter ego or an unrealistic identity, and then you fail to live up to your words or to that image that you've created, that might send a message to your brain that you're untrustworthy or that you're incapable. And that is a situation that you want to avoid. But if instead you form a realistic identity, such as I'm the

type of person who takes a run every morning, or I'm the type of person who is naturally frugal, if you develop that type of realistic identity, you can reaffirm the behavior change that you're trying to make. If you say something, you know, you sort of this fake it until you make it thing, that if you say something, then it's easier. for you to fill in the blank by actually doing something to prove that what you just said is true. Now, here's the key, though, is that if you do that too frequently and you don't back it up with actions, you'll begin to distrust yourself. The takeaway here is that if you're trying to change a behavior, you may be served by choosing

a persona or an identity that reflects the type of behavior that you're trying to build, such as describing yourself as a frugal person as you try to build the behavior of saving more money. Just make sure that you don't take it too far. That is key takeaway number three. Key takeaway number four, recognize discomfort. Discomfort and fear are closely associated in the brain. So even though we wouldn't say that we're afraid to start a new habit, we might react as though we are. When we recognize that something is unfamiliar and uncomfortable, by recognizing,

recognizing that by articulating, oh, this is unfamiliar, this is uncomfortable, we take away some of its power, we take away some of the power that is in that discomfort. Charles describes this when he cites the example of exercising. It's hard to start exercising because it's a change in our routine. What do we wear? Where do we go? How do we do it properly? What type of exercise do we do? What type of music do we listen to? How do we know if we're doing it right. All of these things are easy to research, but we have to break this down and find the answers because otherwise all of these questions become overwhelming and ultimately prevent us from taking any action whatsoever. So for example, we might search what to wear, or we might buy some gym

clothes, or search for parks or trails nearby, or commit to just walking around the block, start small and then build up and recognize that by starting small, we are able to circumvent some of the discomfort and the fear that comes with trying something new. What's interesting is that once you recognize that that discomfort exists, it oftentimes takes the power away from it. So ease yourself into your new habit or routine. Charles suggested that if you want to start running, throw on your running clothes and shoes,

and then go for a walk. Go for a walk around the block to prove to yourself that it's not that hard, it's nothing to be afraid of. You can do it, and eventually you'll work your way up from walking to power walking, to jogging, to running. And so that is key takeaway number four, recognized discomfort. Finally, key takeaway number five, to answer how, understand why. Many of us are quick to ask, how do I do X, Y, Z, or how do I stop doing ABC? But what we should really ask is, why do I want to do XYZ? And what is stopping me? Why haven't I done it yet?

The reasons why we do things and how we stop doing them are not just do X and then Y will occur. It's really try and figure out what X is. Like try and understand the world. Because once you understand how your brain works or how the world works or why you're doing the things you're doing, then changing it is not hard. There's often more to a problem than what appears at first glance. Charles used my own case as an example. I thought that the problem was that I felt overwhelmed by my inbox because each email represented a decision, a small decision, but a decision that I had to make. And the cumulative effect of that led to, in my view, decision fatigue.

But as Charles identified, what I may actually be experiencing is emotional management fatigue disguised as decision fatigue. And that, that example right there is why digging into the why is so helpful. Because if you're not crystal clear on what exactly the challenge is, then you may not be solving the right problem. So keep asking why. Keep questioning. Why is that frustrating? Why is that overwhelming? Keep asking iterations of why until you arrive at something that resonates.

The question is really a why question. Like we think of all these things as how questions. And the name of my show is how to with Charles Duhigg, right? because we want to solve people's problems in a very how-to practical sense. But what you realize is that most how-to questions, they really are why questions. And once you answer the why, the how-to is really straightforward and simple to figure out. All how questions are really why questions. We like to think of these as how questions.

But what you realize is, as Charles says, most questions about how are truly questions about why. And once you answer the why, the how-to makes itself clear. Those are five takeaways from this conversation with Charles Duhigg. If you enjoyed this interview, I bet you would also enjoy the show notes in which we offer a synopsis of not just this interview, but all of our interviews. It's a synopsis that arrives straight in your inbox. You can skim it. You can archive it. You can refer to the resources that are mentioned.

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