Afford Anything - How to Avoid Killing Your Spouse (and Should You Get Married in the First Place?) - with Farnoosh Torabi

Episode Date: February 19, 2018

#117: My friend and financial expert Farnoosh Torabi joins me to answer a relationship & money question from a listener named Janice.⠀⠀ ⠀⠀ Janice is engaged, and she calls to ask: Should she get married?⠀⠀ ⠀⠀ She earns double what her fiancé makes. She has no debt except her mortgage. Her retirement accounts are well-funded. He makes half of her salary. He’s carrying $20,000 in credit card and student loan debt. He has two children from a previous marriage and pays 25 percent of his income to child support. He has zero retirement savings other than his state-funded teachers pension. They’ve been together for 8 years and engaged for three. But she’s unsure about whether or not she should walk down the aisle. Should they get married? Is this a smart financial decision?⠀⠀ ⠀⠀ Farnoosh and I both tackle this question together — and we disagree on some points, which makes this conversation better!! Farnoosh is the bestselling author of When She Makes More, a book that takes an in-depth look at households in which the woman earns more than the man. She hosted a primetime show on CNBC, makes regular appearances on The Today Show and Good Morning America, and writes a monthly financial column for O, The Oprah Magazine. She’s a former reporter for Money Magazine. She's the perfect guest for a conversation about relationships, marriage, money, debt, family.⠀ Enjoy!⠀ For more information, visit the show notes at http://affordanything.com/episode117 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You can afford anything but not everything. Every decision that you make is a trade-off against something else. And that's true, not just of your money, but also your time, your focus, your energy, anything in your life. It's a scarce or limited resource. And so the questions become twofold. What's most important to you? And how do you align your day-to-day behaviors to reflect that? Answering these two questions is a lifetime practice, and that is what this podcast is here to explore.

My name is Paula Pan. host of the Afford Anything podcast. And today, joining me is Farnush Tarabi, host of the So Money podcast, and bestselling author. Her latest book is called When She Makes More, which is a book that examines households in which the woman earns more than the man. And so I thought she would be a perfect guest to answer a question that came in from a listener. So in today's episode, Farnuch and I tackle this question together. Now, a little bit more about Farnoosh before we get into the show. She is a regular on The Today Show on NBC. She's made appearances on Good Morning America. And she's written about money for several top magazines such as glamour, Marie Claire,

and, oh, the Oprah magazine. So she is an acclaimed financial expert and also a friend of mine. So I'm very excited to have her on the show. This is the second time that she's coming on. So without any further delay, Farnush Tarabi. Hey, Farnush. Hi, Paula. How are you? I'm excellent. I'm really glad to have you on the show because I want to talk to you about relationships, how to not murder your spouse, and how to manage money when two people have very different ideas.

And in order to do that, I want to kick it off with a phone call that we got from a listener. What do you think? Sounds great. Awesome. So this phone call is from Janice. Hi, Paula. My name is Janice. I'm 31 years old and now live in Arizona.

Love the blog and podcast. Thank you for taking the time to help people like me work out some of their financial decisions. So here goes. My fiance and I have been together for over eight years, engaged for three. Around the time we got engaged is when I found your blog and learned about financial independence. I started looking at money in a whole new way and the expense of a wedding has really put me off of planning anything. Thus, three years engaged. My fiance just began his first year as a high school teacher in Arizona, which is one of the lowest

paying states for school teachers. I make about double his salary. We keep our finances separate, but if we did combine, we would be making around $115,000 per year. Since discovering FI, I have worked to cut expenses and start maxing out my tax-advantaged accounts. For the past two years, I've been able to max my 401K, Roth IRA, and HSA. I bought and sold a home in Las Vegas and put the $90,000 I made on the sale into a new home in Arizona where we currently reside. I wish I would have kept that house as a rental property, but this was before I found you in your blog. Right now, I have about $110,000 in tax-advantaged accounts, zero credit card debt, my car is paid off, no student loans, and about $143,000 remaining on my mortgage. The house is currently valued at around $260,000.

I feel like I'm on the right track to retire early, but my fiancé still has some ground to cover. He has 12,000 in student loans and about $8,000 in credit card debt. He has two children from a previous marriage, so about 25% of his income goes to child support. He's not saving any additional for retirement outside of what the state puts into a pension. I know you are not a relationship counselor, but my question is, why should we get married? People say there are many tax advantages and other benefits for married couples, but what are they? Really? Our combined income would keep us in the same tax bracket. We are each in individually. We are not religious, so that doesn't come into play for me. So aside from emotional and religious ties and maybe tax advantages for people

in specific tax brackets, are there any other compelling financial benefits of marriage? Because he is in debt, is there any risk to my finances if we were to marry? Would I become liable if we ever separated? Lastly, what are your thoughts on refinancing my house? It's only in my name to pull out cash to pay down his high interest credit cards. I'm still working on building up an emergency fund so I don't feel comfortable putting the cash I have on hand towards it. I would hope to cash out refi for enough to cover his bills plus a down payment on a rental property. Is this too risky if we're not married? Sorry for getting deep and into potentially personal issues,

but I get so much pressure from people around me and don't really see the point if we are happy, committed, and not spending thousands of dollars on a one-day event. Thanks. Thank you, Janice, for asking that question. Farnush, you have covered the topic of relationships and money extensively. which is why I specifically wanted to answer Janice's question while you're on the show. Yeah, Janice, great, great question. I think I would also be at a crossroads a little bit. I mean, I love my husband and I believe in marriage just based on my values. And I'm not religious either.

But it's always been a goal of mine to get married. And maybe I don't really have a very good reason for it. But I do enjoy being married. I like the promise of marriage. I like the hope that marriage instills in people. And although these days, you really have to weigh the economics. I think that that's a really smart question that she asks, especially given the disparities and not just the income, but also in their assets and in their debt levels. And if you're not somebody who wants to spend a lot of money on a wedding, I mean, if that was the only issue, I would say, don't worry that you don't have to spend a lot of

money on a wedding. I think people often get weddied instead of married. You can certainly just go to City Hall and, you know, be done with it. have a nice brunch and we call it yourself married. But it sounds like she has more concerns beyond that, which is how will the marriage help her financially, them financially? How might it hurt them financially?

And she asks a few specific questions. With regards to the debt, his debt, you know, as long as it's just his name on that debt, she is not responsible for those balances. And even if they were to get married, I believe the laws are still the same. Your debt is your debt, as long as it just has your name on it. If your spouse is a co-signer, is an authorized user perhaps, is named somewhere in that

contract, then maybe they might be responsible for that in some capacity. That said, shacking up with somebody who has debt has ramifications. It's going to be difficult for the two of you to purchase things together as a couple, whether you're married or not. I think that's going to be a big drag on. your freedom and your ability and your flexibility to do things as a team. And so that's the one thing I would say about the debt. The home that is in her name and that she's considering refinancing in order to help pay off

her boyfriend, her fiance's debt, I think that's really thoughtful and really generous of you to want to do that. That, to me, would perhaps make some financial sense for him because it might allow him to get out of debt in a less expensive way and a quicker way. It will mean money out of your bank account. And so really you have to be emotionally okay with that because if you guys break up, you don't want to get to a place where you feel resentful for doing that, right? And you want to make sure that when you do that, that is something that is respected in the relationship

and that perhaps by doing that he can do something in response to that that could benefit you. So I often talk to couples where there is a lot of imbalance in the relationship, which just seems like this is Janice's situation, where there is a lack of balance when it comes to not only the financials, but the sense of feeling like financial equals. So the numbers aren't adding up and they're not equal, but also each person in the relationship feels stronger or weaker. So how do you create balance there? How do you create, as I say, how do you level the financial playing field? So it's really about looking at your strengths, your financial strengths. Each of you has strengths, even though it may seem like your fiancé with the debt and the alimony, may be further behind than you are.

Maybe he has just a better mindset around money. Maybe he's really good at budgeting. Maybe he's really good at staying organized. Maybe he's really good at negotiating. So it's about figuring out what he's really good at that can be leveraged within the relationship. It may not be the money that he's contributing, but it's sort of like the mindset, the good habits, the discipline that he might be bringing to the table, that could benefit you as a couple.

And then you, of course, with your assets and your income and your savings can bring benefits to the relationship. So try to find some ways to leverage each other's skills and strengths. Both of you have them. It may not be clear yet, but you have to maybe as a couple figure that out and identify them and really bring them into the forefront and into play. I would also say that if you ultimately decide not to get married, I think that's fine. I don't think that that is a bad thing.

In fact, increasingly couples are, we know, they're living together without a my original license. It's not something that is necessary really anymore. It's not something that is even desired by some couples. It's really a personal choice. But I will say, and I've written about this for Money Magazine in the past, because we know that this is like an increasing trend with couples just cohabitating and not getting married. that you might want to have some agreements in place to protect you, both of you. One would be a relationship agreement.

We found that there was this survey, like eight out of ten women that were pulled, said that they found living with a significant other was problematic, that had a lot of challenges. Everything from chores to how we're going to share expenses, to how we're going to manage our joint bills, to how do we split the TV time? I'm like there's all these different gripes that women had. So before you really take your relationship to the next level, whether you decide to get married or not, especially if you decide to not get married, you might want to lay these things

out in print and just get them figured out beforehand. So there's no confusion. I spoke to this one lawyer who actually recommended a no-nup. So there's pre-nups for people who get married. And then there's what she called the no-nup, which is basically a, a legal document that will talk about how your assets will be divided if things go south. You know, again, we don't think about these things. We're not getting married.

So there really is no formality to this. Let's just like see how this goes. But it's really important to have those things laid out. With regards to your house that you share or may maybe you both live in it, but you're on the mortgage, be really careful about that because make sure even though maybe it's just your name on the mortgage is your name and his name on the deed? Who's on the deed? Because whoever's on the deed, that's the person who owns the house. It could be the both of you. It could be just you. And make sure you're comfortable with that. And then finally, if I may, Paul, without taking up too much time, but I want to really dive in here. If you decide to have kids and you're not married, couples do it. But it's just something to be more precise about because according to law, married couples are automatically the lawful parents. of their kids. So Tim and I have a third kid. He's the lawful dad. I'm the lawful mom. But with children born out of wedlock, unmarried couples, which is about a fifth of the baby

population, there is no presumption of paternity. So your fiancé would not necessarily be recognized as the rightful father. So you will want to have a court-approved parenting agreement in place to show legal guardianship. And that way, you can make sure that you're, entitlements, like your Social Security will go to those kids, and that, you know, you are the lawful parent. If something happens, you're in a hospital, you can get entry and it won't be a problem. So just, you know, there are a lot of things to consider when you don't get married. That said, it's fine. If you don't want to get married, there's just a few extra things you want to have in place.

Fun fact about that. When Kim Kardashian had her first baby, she was technically still married to Chris Humphreys. Their divorce hadn't gotten finalized yet. No way. So even though it was Kanye's child. it was under California law legally chrises right and that was how I learned about that law yeah you want to check your state's laws right so that's the other thing I don't know if I don't know much about state laws as with regards to cohabitating but I know that in Canada for example if you are living with somebody for a number of years and then depending on your province I think that it may be deemed like almost like a marriage so when you break up like you actually have to go through some of the same steps as a married couple breaking up. Right. There are some states that have common law marriages and different criteria as to what constitutes common law. But Arizona is a community property state. So what that means is that if they were to get married, once they're married, all income that they acquire after their marriage and all debts that they acquire after their marriage are considered both of theirs.

Joint, right? community property. So, and that's something to consider given the income disparity between the two of you. You know, if you were to get married in a community property state, well, then everything that's coming in, the exception of inheritance, that's the exception, but all earned income that's coming in is considered both of yours. So, and that's a protection that you have as an unmarried couple is that your your income is yours and his income is his. And likewise, his debts are his. whereas if either of you enter into new debts after you get married, then those debts would be both of yours. So yeah, I guess that was stating that that does make it sound like a case to not get married. But that being said, there are other advantages in getting married, particularly if you have children. And so I guess kids are maybe one of the big question marks for the future. Yeah. And the other thing I might mention is with health insurance, not a straightforward purchase these days. It's sort of like, where do I get my health insurance?

What's the best deal? Can I afford it? What can I afford? I know couples who have benefited greatly from getting married simply because, I mean, well, they love each other. But financially, one was able to benefit from the other person's health benefits from work. Because when you're married, you're technically qualified then for spousal benefits. As many health insurance companies provide benefits to the spouse, to the spouse, to the children for a discount as opposed to buying it straight from the marketplace. So that could be

a huge penny saver. Yeah. Yeah. So certainly health insurance is one of the major financial advantages of getting married. Also, end of life care, family visitation, if somebody is in the hospital, that would be another, one of the other big advantages of being married versus being single. And on the topic of kids, also, if you decide to, Farni Shuf talked about, like if you were to have a child, you know, the different laws with regard to how paternity is recognized. Similarly, if you decide to freeze your eggs or freeze your embryos, specifically if you decide to create embryos and then freeze them, there are big ramifications depending on legal ramifications about paternity, depending on if you're married or not. So again, really having children, I think, is where a lot of the legal advantages comes in in the absence of kids. Farnoche, I love your suggestion about the known up because it makes sense because you do as a couple. You're just going to acquire some assets together.

I mean, furniture, quote-unquote little things that add up. You know, furniture plus maybe a car can add up to a good 30,000-ish. So, you know, you want to have some sort of agreement in place on that. Absolutely. It doesn't seem like the most romantic thing, but it will come in handy when there's disputes or you don't even have to wait until you get to you break up. This stuff can come in handy as you're just trying to remind yourselves of what protocol, what kind of protocol you wanted in the relationship when you first took things to the next level. Yeah. And do we want to tackle the final question, which is should. Should she refi the property and use the money to pay off a credit card?

Yeah, I mean, I kind of touched on that. I sort of feel as though that is a really personal question. And, you know, financially, I would say if she has the money, she's able to do it without sacrificing her retirement savings, her own rainy day savings, and feels like this is money that she can put towards his financial liberation. that she would get a lot of pleasure out of that. I think that's super generous and what an amazing partner you are. I just hope that it would be appreciated and ultimately it doesn't lead to any resentment

because that can happen. We've done stories on mixing money with friends and family and in this case with her fiancee. And I would say, you know, traditionally speaking, couples who do that kind of stuff, they are on the path to get married because they're on that path to really. hopefully commit and make that legal commitment, although we know marriage is often ended divorce, so whatever. But, you know, I think that for her to really answer this, I can't answer this for her.

This has to be really a question that she has to dig deep down into her own head and heart and really feel good about it with whatever happens. Like you have to be okay with this. If the relationship doesn't work out, will you be okay with this or will you be left with regret? I think that's ultimately how you're going to have to make this. decision. One of the reasons that I love having two hosts answering questions is because oftentimes we'll have deferring ideas. So this is one of those questions where my personal opinion is

different than yours. I say, hell no. No, don't do it because credit card debt is unsecured for a number of reasons. But number one, let's start with the basics. Credit card debt is unsecured debt, which means that there is nothing that the banks can take away other than his credit score, possibly suing him and garnishing his wages. But there's really, you know, there's no collateral that is securing that debt. A house is secured by that house. It's secured by the property. In my opinion, you don't want to trade an unsecured debt for a secured debt. So, and I, you know, I would say don't even do that for yourself. The fact that you're considering doing that for somebody else is like just adds an extra layer of no onto it.

So she her plan was to take the equity from her home? I believe so. She said, uh, refi my property and then use the money to, uh, pay off his credit card debt. I mean, if the refy is going to lower her interest rate. Oh, I see what you're saying. You know what I mean? Yeah. So it's a win for her there.

And then her fiancee gets help. You know, another way to arrange this and I have again, this comes up quite a bit, believe it or not. And I kind of have found like a happy medium for couples where perhaps you're not writing a check to your spouse or your partner and being like, here's $10,000. Go. Have what have at it to get rid of that credit card debt. What you may do instead is work out an arrangement where you as the breadwinner, as the person with the higher income, you may be in a better position to take on more of the bills and the rent and a lot of the household living. So that's something that you're going to assume more of so that you can shore up cash for your partner, your fiance, so that he can put that towards his debt.

See what I mean? So you've like, you're not giving him a handout, again, which has its benefits. Because if you're just going to give him a check, who's to say he's not going to fall back into those bad habits, right? Because he hasn't really gone through the motions of getting out of the debt himself. And I wish I had said that earlier. I think this is where I really want you to focus is. is finding a way to get him to still pay his own way out of that debt. But in the process, he's got to show up cash.

He's going to be able to make the money or find the money to do that. You can help him in that journey by assuming more of the expenses that you're currently splitting. Right. That absolutely makes sense. And I've heard of couples, I guess this goes to the issue of how couples co-mingle finances. There are some couples who, community property idea, they go all in and there are no boundaries between them. It's everything is in one giant pot and it is all hours. But there are other couples who still maintain yours and mine and they'll contribute to a joint account to pay joint expenses.

And they can do that in one of two ways. You can either contribute the same fixed raw dollar amount or you can contribute proportionate. to your earnings or proportionate to, if you want to go even more broadly, your assets slash your abilities. So this, I think, would be an example in that he earns half of what she does, you know, could be an example of them, still having yours and mine, but then having a joint account in which they each contribute proportionately. Yes. I am in that latter camp where we have his, her, and mine accounts. And I actually really advocate for this because I think that when I meet couples that are out of sync, arguing, resentful, it's often that they have all their money in one pot. And they feel like they have their hands tied behind their back. They can't go out and buy something for themselves and not have to answer for it. So when you have your own account, you can maintain financial autonomy, which in this day and age, I think Paula, with so many people getting married later in life, at that point,

you've got your own money mindset. You've got your own money habits. You've got your own assets, perhaps. So assuming those are good habits, you want to be able to feel like you can still be your own financial self while you're living in a life with someone who, as a team member of a relationship where you're also working as a financial team. But I think having that outlet so that you can spend freely is critical. We'll come back to the show in just a second. But first, would you like to cook more at home? Are you trying to rely less on takeout when you're busy and you've come home from work and just haven't had time to go to the store? Check out Blue Apron. Blue Apron's the number one fresh ingredient and recipe delivery service in the country. What they do is they'll send you a box

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unrestricted free trial to my listeners. To claim it, just go to freshbooks.com slash Paula. That's freshbooks.com slash P-A-U-L-A. And when they ask, how did you hear about us? Put in, afford anything. Again, that's freshbooks.com slash paula. And when they ask how you heard about them, mention afford anything. Farnush, you famously earn more than Tim, your husband. You've, uh... Oh, my gosh. That sounds so tragic.

I interviewed you for that book. Yeah. You made that book famous. Oh, thank you. I came to your book launch party in New York. Yes. at Henri Bendel. And that, by the way, was the first time I had ever gone into an Henri Bendel, and I then became obsessed with their candles. So your book contributed to my lifestyle inflation,

I would have to say. Well, you deserve it, Paula. Thank you. But since you make more than Tim, when the two of you contribute to a joint pot, do you contribute proportionate to your income, or do you contribute the same raw dollar amount? We do proportionate to our income. that's again like allowing us to level the playing field. It won't be the same dollar amount because then then it's not equal into it's not relatively equal to what we can afford. You know what I mean? So we just do percentages and and the truth is you know a lot of it is just savings. We don't really tap into it. We don't use that money regularly. We just kind of have it for joint expenses that we really want to go in as a team for whether that's a trip or a gift for a loved one who's getting married or

helping out a family member. But if you want to go deeper into how we manage our money, it's a lot of it is I take care of the day-to-day expenses because I just have that ability to do it. I have the kind of liquidity to be able to pay for big and small expenses as they occur on a kind of regular basis. And then Tim is more of the future spender where he is. saving up to then spend big time on things like a vacation or a down payment on a car or it could be, I mean, he is the primary saver for our kids college funds. That's important because there is income disparity in your relationship.

The person who makes less can feel inherently like their money is not as much of a purposeful tool in the relationship that they're less than somehow as far as their ability to provide. relationship. So it's really important to identify like big things that that person can get behind with their money, even if it is a smaller amount, but over time can be a significant contribution. Farnush, given that you are the resident expert on relationships and money and, you know, particularly instances when women make more, what other tips do you have broadly for anyone who's listening who's wondering how to not murder their spouse? not murder their spouse. Well, you know, you have to kind of from a place of no judgment.

I think that one of the basic things that couples need to do that we often don't is not just talk about the numbers that make up our financial lives, our respective financial lives. Couples don't even do that. I've met people who don't even know how much their spouses earn, which is a whole other problem. But knowing the numbers is one important step, you know, your credit scores, your savings, your debt levels, your income. But before that, I would say also learn about where you both came from, what are your financial rooting, you know, what kind of family life did you have? Where did you grow up that necessarily influenced, shaped the way that you think about money, the way that you relate to money? Do you have an abundance mindset? Do you have a scarcity mindset? Did your parents fight about money all the

time? Did your parents go through a bankruptcy? Because all of those experiences, whether you went through them or just experienced them, you were a fly on the wall, contribute to how you manage your money today. And how you manage your money today, yeah, 10 to 15% of it comes down to the tools, the budgets, the automations. But it's also, a majority of it is the belief systems, the behaviors, the psychology, the emotions, all that plays a much more significant role in every decision that we make. So knowing that, I think, will do a lot of things for you in the relationship. It will create empathy because we realize we're not alone, hopefully. It will help to give our financial decisions context. So now you know why your

partner is super irrational when it comes to impulse purchases or just having such a hard time getting rid of that last credit card bill. He's holding onto it, like as if it's part of his identity. And you know what? Maybe it is because he grew up in a life in a family where debt was just a normal thing to have. So that's a journey that you both need to go on and go deep and dive deep and don't be judgmental. And if it helps, if you feel like you're married to someone or with somebody who is closed off, doesn't want to talk about money, start first, be the leader, you know, share, be vulnerable, be transparent. And hopefully you will be someone to aspire to in a relationship that your partner will feel like, yeah, I'm in a safe place. I'm in the trust tree.

as they say, I can share this stuff and not feel judged or criticized. So that's really important. And I think no matter what this dynamic is in your relationship, you make more, you make less, you make the same, you make nothing, this stuff needs to get talked out, talked through. So that's another big part of the pie, part of the puzzle. What do you do if your spouse has a significantly different risk tolerance than you do when it comes to investments? Yeah, so I think when you look at sort of the makeup of a diversified portfolio, you want to allow room for risk. And if you are way more risk tolerant than your partner, then maybe you have separate accounts. You know, you have perhaps your joint account that you blend your money into that is a balance of your risk tolerance and his. And it's for your future, your future together. And then maybe he's got his separate. IRA, you've got your own IRA. Within your own IRA, you can be riskier, but you're not gambling

with your joint money. But I also think there's a conversation worth having there as to why you're afraid of taking more risks or why are you super risk driven. You know, there's maybe some irrationality there that isn't really necessary that you don't have to be so risk crazed that, you know, maybe you could dial it back a little bit. But sometimes having a third party, like a financial advisor, a money coach, to help you, to guide you through these dispositions could be really helpful to have that objective third party to ask the questions, to mediate, I think could be really valuable. What do you do if both you and your spouse or significant other have very different five-year or 10-year goals? Like, for example, let's say one person is very enthusiastic

about reaching financial independence and perhaps having an early retirement, but the other person is not. Well, that's not really a money question. That's a marriage relationship question. Why are we in this relationship question? You know, I think that that is part of your money puzzle that you're going to figure out. You start with your goals. Make sure you're on a level there that you're both agreeing to the goals. You feel like you're working towards the same thing. it'll help to make your financial decisions easier, hopefully, that you know, you've got, you're all, you're working towards something. Your money has meaning.

But if you have disparate goals, conflicting goals, then, then I think you really need to think about the future of the relationship. I don't know if that can work out. I mean, I hope it can work out. I hope you can find a way to find common ground. But the whole point of getting together and taking a relationship to the next level, I think, a lot of it has to do with wanting to work together towards a common goal or common goals, plural.

But if you find that you have no common goals or shared interests, then that really complicates things. And I think it will be hard to then communicate and to be respectful and to feel like you're in a relationship. You'll feel like you're more like in a contentious pairing, you know, when your ideas are budding. But maybe I'm thinking of the extreme and maybe you're thinking more of like a subtler difference in opinions. I'm sure there are people who are listening who are experiencing both. There are probably some listeners who have that subtle difference of opinions and others who have the extreme.

Yeah, I mean, mediation is always healthy, having somebody to come and help you with your, you know, help you work through some of these differences. but if you find that the differences are rooted more in behavioral differences and psychological differences and just values differences, then I think that's this endemic of maybe something bigger, bigger problem. And at that point, I'm no expert. We'll return to the show in just a moment. Are you happy with your bank? Are you getting the most from your money?

Look, it's 2018. If your bank isn't making you money or providing an incentive for your business, it's time to find one that will. Leading personal finance site Go Banking Rates is back for the sixth year in a row, ranking the best banks. These rankings cover five categories. Best online bank, best national bank, best checking account, best savings account, and best CD account. There are also editors' picks for categories like bonus offer, high yield checking,

and much more. Now, these are totally unbiased rankings. Absolutely no bank paid to be included or paid for any specific placement. So if you want to know which bank was voted best savings account or best credit card rewards, you can go online today to go banking rates.com slash Paula to see the winners and sort through the categories to find out which bank is best for your needs. Again, that's go banking rates. Rates.com slash Paula to check out these rankings.

GoBanking Rates has created these categories around high value banking features and products in order to help you make the best decisions. GoBanking Rates wants to help you choose a bank that can do the most for your money on your terms. So bank smarter in 2018, find the full rankings at go banking rates.com slash Paula, P-A-U-L-A. I often get questions from people who most things with their spouse are aligned. Their goals, even their risk tolerance are aligned. But one person really wants to, for example, move all of the investments to Vanguard or something kind of small like that where they're encountering a lot of resistance from their spouse.

What do you do in such a situation? I guess again, this is more of a relationship question, but what battles are worth fighting? what are worth letting go of and how do you have the wisdom to know between the two? Yeah. I mean, I think that if you're battling over a situation where you want to move your money somewhere that you think is going to be a better move for your money, it's going to be more fruitful, for the both of you, for your wealth, for your bottom line and your other partner is in disagreement, that's, again, why having a financial advisor or a money coach is really helpful because

that person can be non-judgmental, objective, can lay it all out factually and can be that rational compass. Because in a relationship, we all come to a relationship with our own money or rationalities. And I think that when you are in a relationship together, making decisions that can really build up and make things even more complicated, you're not seeing eye to eye, you're speaking emotionally, you're not, like, you're not paying attention to the charts and historical returns and you're just being really stubborn. Then in that, in that case, I think that you might want to start to introduce other things other than just your opinion. Maybe it's article clippings.

Maybe it's like, hey, I heard this podcast and they were talking about, you know, couples that have differing opinions and how to work through them. You know, I think that sometimes when you leverage other materials, reiterate your own point or to supplement your point can be helpful because, again, it's not coming from you. And sometimes when we hear things from our spouse, just like when we hear things from like our mom or our dad, oh, I'm getting parented. You know, I don't want to be, there's a thing called financial mommying or financial, you know, parenting that sometimes spouses do to one another, which can feel really demeaning. So you want to be careful, you don't go into that trap. You don't fall into that trap. And sometimes when you introduce objective pieces of news or

charts or a blog post or a podcast or, hey, our friends are using this financial advisor. She sounds great. Let's go to a meeting. The first meeting is free. Maybe she can sort some things out for us. So I think at that point, you want to reach outside the relationship to find ways to bring you both on the same page. And then final question before we move on and chat about your awesome new project. In the research that you've done, because you wrote a book called When She Makes more. And you heavily researched the dynamic of couples in which the woman is the primary breadwinner. And one of the things that you found that surprised me actually when I read it was that in households where women are the primary breadwinner, they also do the vast majority of housework, domestic chores.

It's crazy, isn't it? Yeah. It's just, it's just crazy. And yeah, it's ironic. But I think that when you really break it down, and this is what the psychologists have deducted, is that it makes sense. Because when she makes more, she may feel that she's taking on a role that is at least traditionally anti-feminine, right? So what does she do? She tries to overcompensate for that by doing something that is traditionally very feminine, which is cleaning and doing the housework. So she is trying to find balance in her purpose and role in the relationship. How she got the message that being the breadwinner is the woman is perhaps unfeminine or out of balance. She could have picked that up from anywhere.

It could have been in her upbringing. It could have been just by watching television. It could have been, you know, observing her friendships. It's not the norm. And it's not something we talk about. And so we don't inherently feel very comfortable sometimes when we take on that role. role. So we overcompensate and try to overcorrect it in our minds by doing what we think has been always like the woman's role, which is to clean and do housework. It's totally crazy and nuts,

but it is what it is. And we're working on it. So my advice to women and couples who find themselves just overwhelmed with the demands of running a household, especially women who are out there working, bringing home the bacon, then feeling like they have to come home and start that next shift, is to outsource. It's going to cost money to hire child care, to hire housekeeper, to hire someone to come and cook for you sometimes, but if that's what you need. But if it is something that will, in exchange, bring up, allow you to have more time, to allow you to spend more time at work with family on yourself, then I think it's 100%

worth it. And if you want some math to prove it, I think it's Tim Ferriss in the four-hour work week introduces this simple math, which is that you take your annual salary and you take the last three zeros. So if you make $50,000, then you're left with $50, divided by two. That's 25. That is your hourly rate. So if it costs you less than $25 an hour to hire someone to gosh, like organize your, all the clauses in your house to cook for you, to watch your kids for three hours so that you can go get a haircut and maybe run some errands, then it's worth it because then you're outsourcing at a cost that is less than what it would cost to have you do it, if that makes sense.

Right. And that math totally makes sense because that assumes 40 hours a week multiplied by 50 weeks a year, which is 2,000 working hours a year. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, sites like TaskRabbit and Upwork, gosh, I mean, Craigslist, there's so many ways, word of mouth, there's so many ways to find good help these days in any area of your life. And I encourage people to really exercise their ability to outsource.

It's, again, it's not free. It's going to cost you money. But I look at it as an investment. I absolutely agree with that. And what I would add to it is that I was having a lot of internal resistance to the idea. and the best tip or piece of encouragement that I heard came from Laura Vandercam who said, start by doing the things that you cannot outsource, such as sleeping, showering, exercising, calling your mom. Like those are all things that you can't outsource.

So fill your schedule with that first. And then if there's remaining time in your schedule, then sure, you could optionally choose to do something that you could outsource. But I'm betting that once you fill your schedule with all of the things that you can't, outsource, there probably won't be much wiggle room. That's brilliant. That is brilliant. I'm going to do that. I'm going to start doing that. I need to call my mom. It did make me visualize what outsourcing calling my mom would look like. Hey, Mom, I've paid my assistant to call you this week with an update about me. I know, right? Yeah. Oh my gosh. That's, that's sad. So Farnush, Tell us about your course.

Thank you. Yeah. So I have launched a course in partnership with Investopedia, which is the world's largest financial resource online. And I'm really excited to introduce it. It's called Master Your Money. It's a nine module course that I teach. And it is available now. If you go to academy.

com and you search for me or you search for master your money, you can find it if you use the code Farnush 20, you'll be able to. get 20% off. It's normally $99, but Farniuch 20 will knock it down by another 20%. And it's real value. I mean, you're going to get lifetime access to this course that teaches you everything from budgeting to investing, earning more at your job, transitioning from your job to entrepreneurship as so many millennials are interested in doing and even Gen Xers and baby boomers, let's be honest. It talks about how to make affordable those big purchases. the homes, the cars, the vacations, the business idea. So it really, I think, takes financial learning,

personal financial learning to the next level. It's got the basics in there, but then it also has the nuanced questions that we have that your listeners are often asking, you know, the sophisticated questions. Like, you know, I'm not enjoying my job right now. I don't know if I should quit and go back to grad school or should I quit and try to find another job. Like I'm at this crossroads. We've all been there or we all will be there. And so it tackles these money questions, but really their life questions, right? Because money is at the root of so many of our life conundrums. So I'm excited for that. And thank you for letting me chat a little bit about it. It's in academy. Dot investopedia.com. Master your money is the name of the course. And Farnish 20 for 20% off.

Awesome. Thank you so much, Farnush. And we will link to that in the show notes. Oh, thank you so much. This has been so much fun. Thanks for letting me riff about money and couplehood. Absolutely. You are welcome on this show anytime. I love having you on here. Thank you so much for joining us. Thanks, Paula. Farnush, thank you so much for coming on the show. What are the key takeaways? I'd say there was one big takeaway that came out of today's episode to me,

and that was that there sometimes is no right answer. And I think that can be surprising and perhaps a little counterintuitive in the world of finance, where we often expect there to be a right and a wrong answer. Finance can sometimes come across as a very black and white field. You know, it's a math-based field. And so, and there are a lot of presenters who have an approach that's like, do this, don't do that. But when we dig down into the question of, is this a wise financial decision? Oftentimes, the most honest answer is, you know, I'm not sure.

Here are the pros. Here are the cons. Now, go sleep on that and go think critically about that. Let's just make an assessment of the advantages and the disadvantages. and then, you know, let that incubate in your mind for a while. And hopefully that will lead you to a decision that is, quote unquote, right. And this surprised me, actually, when I started writing about finance. I didn't realize how much emotion is in this topic.

And I didn't realize how subjective and how nuanced the topic could be. Again, I think, you know, particularly for people who are beginners, finance can sometimes seem like, well, this is how you balance a checkbook. and this is how you make a contribution to a 401K. It can seem very tactical and very procedural. But when it does come to these questions, your finance is really a metaphor for life. And any decision about money is fundamentally a decision about values, priorities, and the subjective analysis of what constitutes critical judgment.

So I suppose if there is any takeaway from today's episode, any major takeaway, it's do the best you can. Or in other words, we're all just trying to get it right. And that means forgive yourself when you make a poor financial decision. And I'm not specifically talking about marriage right now. I'm talking about any financial decision that you make. Because there are many times when you think in the moment,

based on the information that is available to you at the time, you do honestly think that you are making the most responsible choice. and it's only in hindsight as we get wiser that we sometimes realize, oh, that decision that I made five years ago actually was not the optimal choice. If that happens, don't beat yourself up over it. In fact, celebrate it because what it means is that you've gotten wiser. The benefit of hindsight is a benefit. It's the benefit of being better in today than you were back in the past. So that is, I think for me, it was a key takeaway of today's show. So thank you for joining. Please do me a favor. I am interested in knowing who you are. About a year ago or so, we did a survey of this audience, and we found out that you are 55% female, 45% male, that you are predominantly higher income. Most of you make more than about, I think it was, I had to look at, I don't have the statistics in front of me, but I think the majority of you make either more than 50,000 a year or more than 75,000 a year. I forget which one. At any rate, you are higher income.

than the average American. You are generally a well-educated audience. We found out quite a bit of information. It was really fascinating. But that information is a year old. And so I would love to know more about you. So please head to afford-anything.com slash who are you? Again, that's afford-anything.com slash who are you?

Who are you? Who are you? And that's where you can fill out a survey telling us, who are you? And I really appreciate it because that information is just, it's super helpful. It helps us when we're chatting with potential sponsors and it helps us see just in all facets of the behind the scenes planning and organizing and podcast administration that we do. It's helpful to know who's listening on the other end. So thank you for filling that out in advance and thank you so much for tuning in. If you want to call in with a question, we have a lot of questions right now in the queue that,

are related to real estate. So if you have a question that you want answered on the show that is not real estate related, it will have a shorter lead time than the ones that are real estate related. Right now, the lead times for real estate related questions are fairly long, I think about four months or so, whereas the non-real estate questions we can get to, relatively speaking, much faster. So leave us a voicemail if you've got a question, particularly if it's not real estate related and we will get to it. Also, final, final note is that on Instagram, I posted this question last week and we got a lot of interesting responses. So if you want to hear about what your fellow listeners thought of this question, head to Instagram.com slash

Paula Pant, where you can kind of go a few images into the archives and see what other people said about this question. Should you get married in the first place? So again, that's Instagram.com slash Paula Pant or I guess the other way to say it is at Paulopant. My name is Paula Pant. I am the host of this show. P-A-U-L-A, P-A-N-T. Thank you so much for tuning in. I really appreciate it. Coming up on future episodes, next week I'm answering questions about real estate, actually. Next week I'm answering questions that come in from you. And a little bit later on, I'll be interviewing Roger Whitney, the retirement answer man, about retirement-related topics. After that, I'll also be airing an interview with Liz from Frugal Woods.

So all of that is coming up on future episodes. Thanks so much for tuning in. My name's Paul Pat. I'll get you next week.