Afford Anything - How to Talk to Your Parents About Retirement and Beyond -- with Cameron Huddleston

Episode Date: August 9, 2019

#208: Well, this could get awkward. Your parents and grandparents are aging. (Duh.) You want to have a few important financial conversations with them. It’s time to get the answers to questions like: “So … are you ready for retirement?” “You’ve been retired for 10 years … how’s that going? How are your finances looking?” “Do you have a will or legal trust? What’s your estate plan situation?” “Do you have an advance health care directive?” “To whom have you given your power of attorney?” “What types of accounts do you have, and how can I -- or someone whom you designate --  access the passwords if and when the appropriate time comes?” These financial conversations are important, but awkward. Most people would rather discuss the news, the weather, or the Kardashians.  How do you introduce these conversations to your family? What specific topics should you cover? What documents and other information should you gather? How do you manage these conversations when siblings, half-siblings and step-siblings are involved? What about step-parents? What if your parent lives outside of the U.S. and the laws are different; how should you plan? In today’s podcast episode, award-winning personal finance journalist Cameron Huddleston discusses these critical issues.  Huddleston has spent nearly two decades writing about money for Kiplinger Personal Finance, the Chicago Tribune, Fortune, USA Today, MSN and more. She’s the author of Mom and Dad, We Need to Talk: How to Have Essential Conversations with Your Parents About Their Finances.  She joins us to discuss how to navigate these tricky family conversations. For more information, visit the show notes at https://affordanything.com/208 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi there. This is Paula Pant, host of the Afford Anything podcast, coming to you from the closet in my bedroom, which is where I do these recordings. As you know, I've been battling coronavirus. I've been battling COVID-19 for the past week. Every day is better than the previous day. So today is better than yesterday, and yesterday was better than the previous day. So I'm definitely on the upward trajectory. and I'm going to try to maintain as much normalcy with the podcast production as possible. And so today is the first Friday of the month of April. And normally we're a weekly show. We air every Monday morning. But once a month, on the first Friday of the month, we air a first Friday bonus episode.

And so for the sake of a return to normalcy, for the sake of trying to maintain a sense of rhythm and order, we're going to air a first Friday bonus episode today, but it's going to be, today's episode is going to be a replay of an interview that we previously aired that I thought is particularly relevant at this time. Back in August of 2019, we interviewed a journalist, a financial journalist by the name of Cameron Huddleston, and she wrote a book called Mom and Dad, We Need a Talk. And the book is about how to have important but awkward conversations with your family about financial and life matters, you know, such as do you have an advanced health care directive? Do you have a will or a legal trust? What's your estate plan situation? To whom have you given your power of attorney? Right. So she wrote a book about how to introduce these types of conversations to your family. What specific topics should you cover? What specific question should. you ask? How do you manage these conversations when there are other siblings involved or half-siblings or step-siblings? How do you handle these conversations if your parent lives in a different country? So these are questions related to aging and end-of-life that people often don't want to talk about or don't want to think about, but that's important to get a handle on up front. And so today I want to re-air this episode. So what you're about to hear,

is the original episode that first aired in August of 2019. It has not been edited or changed. It's a replay of the August 2019 interview. And hopefully this will inspire you to have some difficult but important conversations with your family. Meanwhile, I will be continuing to post updates on my own progress on Instagram at Paula Pant, P-A-U-L-A-P-A-N-T. as well as on Twitter at Afford Anything. And I'm hoping that by Monday's show, we will have brand new original content for Monday.

So make sure that you're subscribed to this podcast so that you won't miss that. And without any further delay, here is our interview with Cameron Huddleston from August of 2019. You can afford anything, but not everything. Every decision that you make is a trade-off against something else. And that's true, not just for the way that you spend your money, but also for the way you spend your time, focus, energy, attention, everything carries an opportunity cost. And that leads to two questions.

First, what matters most in your life? Second, how do you align your daily decisions in accordance? Answering these two questions is a lifetime practice, and that's what this podcast is here to explore. My name is Paula Pan. I'm the host of the Afford Anything podcast. Normally we're a weekly show, but once a month, on the first Friday of the month, we air a monthly bonus episode. Now, those of you who are astute observers of the calendar will notice that this is actually the second Friday of August 2019, and that's because the first Friday of this month just

totally whizzed by, and I didn't even notice it. So this is the second Friday of the month bonus episode. Welcome to August 2019. Today, journalist Cameron Huddleston joins us to discuss how to have an uncomfortable, awkward, but very important conversation with your parents about their retirement finances and their end-of-life care. How do you have a conversation with your parents or your grandparents about estate planning, long-term care, and other issues that are at that intersection between aging and financial planning? Cameron, who joins us today, is a journalist with more than 17 years of experience,

writing about personal finance for publications like Kiplinger's personal finance, the Chicago Tribune, Fortune Magazine, Money Magazine, USA Today, and many more. She recently wrote a book called Mom and Dad, We Need a Talk. And she wrote this book after she realized that she herself, even though she was a personal finance journalist, and knew this topic well, still made several mistakes insofar as she avoided having necessary conversations with her own mother until it was a little bit too late. And I will let Cameron tell that story herself. Here she is, Cameron Huddleston, discussing how to talk to your parents about their financial life. Hey there. Hey, how are you? I'm great. How are you doing? I am so excited to be talking to you today.

You wrote a book about the importance of having difficult financial conversations with your parents. The inspiration for this book, it seems to be, was with your own story, your father died without a will, at a very early age, and your mom showed signs of early onset dementia also at a very young age. Exactly. I feel like I am, unfortunately, the poster child for why these conversations have to happen sooner rather than later. You're right. I mean, my father did pass away when he was 61 of a heart attack. He was in a second marriage. The kicker here is that my father, although he was an attorney, he died without a will. And of course, when you're in a second marriage, that makes things complicated. Fortunately, it didn't end up too badly. It was certainly uncomfortable for a while. It could

have been a whole lot worse. But the bigger inspiration was my mother. And again, I felt like I made a big mistake here. I should have had conversations with her about her finances before she started showing signs of memory loss. And I had an opportunity to do this, but I blew it. I had been living in Washington, D.C. and moved back home to my home state of Kentucky. One of the first conversations I had with her, I don't think most people would make this their first conversation when moving back home. But mine was, Mom, I think you need to get long-term care insurance because she and my father had been divorced. I, as a financial journalist, knew the importance of having this sort of insurance policy because it helps pay for care in an assisted

a living facility at your home or in a nursing home. And because she was alone, I knew if she ever needed care, this would help pay for it. Unfortunately, she had a pre-existing medical condition. It was not Alzheimer's at the time. It was something else. And so she was considered too high risk to qualify. And I should have used that opportunity to say, okay, mom, let's figure out how we would pay for this care if you ever needed it. Let's talk about what type of care you want. But I didn't. I totally dropped the ball on that. Then a few years later, she started showing signs of memory loss. At that time, it wasn't that I was afraid to talk to her about her finances.

I was afraid to have the conversation because I would be pointing out that I noticed she was having memory troubles. And that's why it's so important to talk about these things before there is a health issue, before there is an emergency, because you can talk about it as a hypothetical. mom and dad what if this happened to you what would I need to know about your finances what would I need to know about the legal documents you have what what sort of plan do you have to deal with these situations because when they're happening emotions are running high it's no longer a what if but oh my gosh we're right in the middle of this how do we deal with it you have fewer options to deal with it and you might not have the legal authority to step in and start making financial and health care decisions for your parents. And that was almost the case with my mother.

I quickly moved to get her in to meet with an attorney to update her will and her power of attorney document. In Kentucky, it's called a living will in some places it's an advanced health care directive. If we had not done this, if I had waited any longer, she would not have been competent enough to sign those documents and you had to be mentally competent to sign them. So what happens if a person waits long enough that their parent or grandparent is not mentally competent enough to be able to legally sign such documents? First, I'll explain quickly. I think most people know what a will is. A power of attorney is a document that lets you name someone to make financial decisions for you if you no longer can. And the living will and advance health care directive, they let you name a health care proxy, someone to make medical decisions for you if you can't. And they also let you spell out your end-of-life medical care treatment that you want. Like, do you want to be on life support? So if these aren't in place before, a health incident, an emergency makes you no longer competent to sign them, then a family member, a loved one, a friend will have to go to court to become the conservator for that parent.

And this is a very lengthy, expensive legal process. You are basically putting your parent or grandparent family member on trial to prove that he or she is no longer competent to manage their finances on their own, to make health care decisions on their own. You know, it's a horrible, horrible situation for everyone involved, and it can be incredibly expensive. Someone I interviewed for the book, his father had not named Tim Power of Attorney before he had developed Alzheimer's, and when he ended up in the emergency room, he was not able to access his dad's bank account to pay bills for him, and so he had to go through this process spend nine months, $10,000 doing it.

You know, and a lot of people don't have that sort of money sitting around to do that. And that person whom you interviewed for the book, the person who had to spend nine months and $10,000 going through the court system in order to be able to pay for his dad's hospital bills, that person is actually a former guest on this podcast. His name is Doug Nordman. He's part of the fire community. he was our guest in episode 33. Doug, I mean, if any of you are familiar with him, I mean, he's a very financially savvy guy.

And he, when he saw that his dad was starting to have memory issues, he kind of hinted at this. You know, dad, do you need help from me? Do we need to get power of attorney documents? And his dad said, no, no, I'm good. And Doug didn't push it. He did not push it. And when I interviewed Doug for the book, you know, he said he really does regret. He should have pushed harder.

He should have said, dad, we need to do this. We need to make sure you've named a power of attorney that this is all in place because as Doug found out, it's beyond a huge headache. I mean, it is expensive. It is draining. It is time consuming. And what Doug had told me too is that once you are named conservator, it's not like a, you know, it's not done and over with you.

Every year have to file a report with the court letting them know how you have managed your parents' money. As a power of attorney for my mother, I don't have to do that. I mean, I simply take the document and give it to the financial institutions and say, you know, I have the legal right to manage my mom's finances to make decisions for her. And that's it. I mean, I don't have to deal with this paperwork headache every single year like he did with his father. Now, what is the difference between a limited power of attorney and a durable general power of attorney? Ideally, you want your parents and yourself to have the durable power of attorney because basically it allows.

someone to step in and make those decisions at any point. You don't have to jump over any hoops. It gives them broad powers to make all financial decisions for you. With the limited power of attorney, you know, you might just be limited to making real estate decisions, that sort of thing. And if it's springing, meaning there has to be some sort of event that triggers it, you're going to have to get doctors to basically say, yes, I am going to sign a document saying that this parent is no longer able to make decisions. And then it gets tricky because you really have to be very specific and describing what that incident is when that power of attorney is going to spring into effect. And that can end up being challenged in court. So the general durable power of attorney is the

best because it makes it easiest for your power of attorney to actually step in and start helping out. And I know that for parents, this can feel like you're giving up a lot of power. but what you can do and what you can tell your parents is, you know, mom and dad, these documents are so important. It's so important to have them in place so that when an emergency arises, I can step in and help you out. I can write checks for you to make sure your bills get paid. But you know what, Mom and Dad, I have no power truly unless I have this document in hand. So what you can do is put it someplace safe. Put it in your home safe and just tell me how I can access it when an emergency arises.

and I have to help you. And that might give them a little bit of peace of mind, knowing that you're not walking around with their power of attorney and going to their bank and getting access to their accounts. That's exactly what my follow-up question was about to be. Aren't there risks to giving somebody your power of attorney? Yes. Yes, there certainly are, and it is such a huge responsibility. You know, unfortunately, when it comes to elder fraud and elder financial abuse,

most of the people who are committing this sort of financial abuse and fraud, they tend to be family members, which is very sad that there are people who are taking advantage of this trust that their parents have given them. And so if your parents are trusting you with this responsibility, you need to take it very seriously, very, very seriously. You know, so like I said, tell your parents to put it someplace safe, have them tell you how to access it because you do need the actual document in order to get the financial institutions to believe that you are indeed your parents' power of attorney. Let's talk about some of the fears, the risks, the reluctance that people that both sides have when it comes to discussing these issues. And let's start with,

from the perspective of an adult child, is somebody in their 20s, 30s, 40s, who is talking to their parents about being prepared for the inevitable. What are some of the fears around that? What are some of the reasons that those conversations don't happen more often? There are a lot of reasons that adult children are afraid to have these conversations. It's that fear that's often preventing them from having the conversations, obviously. Some of them include, you know, I'm afraid my parents are going to think I'm going to be nosy, or they're going to think I'm being greedy, or they're going to get up, set because I'm bringing this uncomfortable topic up, they're going to get mad and then our

relationship is going to be damaged as a result. But I want to point out that if you go to your parents and let them know that you want to talk to them about their finances, because if someday they ever need your help, that you need to get some information so that you can provide that help, that you are looking out for their best interest. This is not. at all about you. You're not concerned in the least about what you may or may not be getting down the road. That doesn't matter. I just want to know, mom and dad, have you put your final wishes in writing? Do you have important legal documents? Do you have a plan for long-term care? This is all about you, mom and dad, because I want to be able to provide care for you if you need it.

I want to be able to help you if you need it. This isn't about me. And hopefully when they hear that, they are going to realize that you're looking out for their best interest. And of course, you know, if you have a loving relationship with your parents, they're going to realize that you are looking out for them. And they might feel a little bit uncomfortable initially. But they're probably not going to blow up and get mad at you. Probably not. Probably not.

You know, they're certainly not going to ground you and send you to their, to your room. But it can take a while. It can definitely take a while. And, you know, they might not want to open up right away. So realize that. realize that it can take time to get through to them, and that's why you need to start trying to have these conversations sooner rather than later, because it can take time for them to warm up to the idea of talking to you about something that they might consider to be very uncomfortable. And from the perspective of an aging parent, why do parents often feel reluctance to talk to their adult children about end-of-life concerns? And their money and all those things.

You know, a couple of different things here. a lot of older adults consider money to be a very taboo topic. They were taught by their parents. You don't talk about money. I remember my dad telling me when I was growing up, you don't talk about money. It's just not polite. And so they're hanging on to that idea that this is something you do not discuss, not even with your own family, which is unfortunate. They also might be embarrassed about their finances. If they haven't managed their money well, the last thing they want to do is admit that to their kids. And these conversations also bring up very sticky issues like end of life and aging and long-term

care. And it makes them think about the fact that, you know, perhaps they're going to be losing their independence. And yes, someday they will die. And so it brings up a flood of emotions when you bring up this topic. And it can be very difficult to get parents to open up. And it's so important, though, to kind of try to pinpoint why they might be reluctant. to have the conversation because if you can figure out what's holding them back, it can help you

figure out what approach to use when you start to have these conversations. What is going to be more likely to get them to open up to you? Let's talk about some of those sample approaches. What are a few examples of different types of approaches that a person could use? So if you know your parents think money is a taboo topic, and this is going to sound crazy, but you don't want to make the conversation about money. The last thing you want to do is say, you know, let's discuss where you stand financially in retirement. You want to kind of couch it as mom and dad. How does retirement look for you?

Or now that you're in retirement, how's it going? Have you enjoyed it? Have you gotten to do the things you want to do? And that can give you some clues. You know, if they say, well, you know, we really wanted to travel, but we just haven't been able to. And then you can say, well, why not? You know, oh, it's so expensive.

And then you can kind of step in and say, well, you know what? there's some really great ways that you can travel on the cheap and start offering them advice, share tips with them, you know, on ways that they can cut the cost of traveling or maybe they say, you know, retirement's more expensive than I thought it was going to be. And so offer them tips on how to save money. Finding those kind of not so direct ways to start the conversation can make it easier. Now, if you feel like maybe they're embarrassed to talk about their finances, you know, again, don't make the focus on money, but you could perhaps share a story about someone you know who

basically kind of face the consequences of not having conversations with their parents soon enough. Maybe someone you know whose father died without a will and you can share how it was difficult for her family because there was a stepmother and a stepbrother involved. And so mom and dad, let's make sure that this doesn't happen to us or you can talk about a friend who had to stop working to care for a mother with dementia. And again, how can we plan for this? So using a story is a great way to get these conversations started. I feel too if you're young, like just starting out in your 20s, a really natural way

to start the conversation is by asking your parents for advice because this is what parents love to do. They love to give advice to their kids. And so you can come at it from the angle of, hey, mom and dad, I just started a new job. I have the opportunity to contribute to a retirement account. What do you think? Is this a good idea? Or I just got married.

Do I need a will? Do I need life insurance? What did you do? And then use their responses to keep the conversation going in the direction that you wanted to go. So when we talk about having these conversations, what exactly should these conversations cover? What are all of the important points that we should be hitting during these conversations? You definitely want to find out if the only thing. thing you can find out is this. You want to find out whether they have a will or a living trust,

power of attorney, and the advanced health care directive. Because like I said earlier, you know, you have to be mentally competent to sign these documents. So if they don't have them, you want to push as gently but forcefully to as you can to get them into meeting with an attorney to draw up these documents or if they cannot afford attorney to at least use some downloadable forms that you can get online at sites such as nolo.com. These can work. They're better than nothing. They are cheaper than meeting with an attorney. Ideally, meet with an attorney so that the documents are drawn up specific to your situation. Find out if they have these documents. Find out if you can. how do they pay their bills? Because if they're paying them by check and you're not named their

power of attorney, who's going to write the check for them? That's what Doug ran into. That's the problem he ran into when his father was in the hospital. He went to his father's bank. The bank said, you're not your father's power of attorney. We can't let you sign checks for him. And so if they're writing other checks, you know, paying other bills by check, encourage your parents to set up automatic bill payment. You know, mom and dad, this is going to make things so much easier. You don't have to worry about late payments. If something happens to you, you know, your bills are going to get paid, and then offer to help them if they haven't done it already. And then, again, that kind of offers a way into getting a look at their finances. You know, you're going to help them set up that online banking.

It's going to kind of give you a glimpse at their bank account, perhaps. You know, the idea isn't to necessarily find out the dollar amount. You just want to figure out how they're doing things, how the bills are paid, where they're banking, what systems they have in place. You want to find out what sources of income they're going to have in retirement if you can. Is it just going to be Social Security? Is there a pension? Do they have retirement savings? You want to find out if they have a long-term care plan. Because this is a big one. This is going to affect you personally. Most adults do not have long-term care insurance, which is the only type of insurance that will pay for long-term care. Medicare does not pay for long-term care. Medicaid will, but you have to be very low income to qualify. You have to have very

few assets to qualify for Medicaid, and it only pays for nursing home care and care at home. It's not going to pay for the type of care that my mom is currently getting in assisted living. For most people, their children end up being their long-term care plan. And if that's the case with your parents, if they don't have an insurance policy, if they don't have long-term care annuities, if they don't have a life insurance policy with a long-term care benefit, if they don't have savings to pay for it, they're going to end up counting on you, and that will affect you in more ways than one. It will affect you financially if you have to leave a job. If you are already retired and living the good life as an early retiree, you know, it can mean

moving in with mom and dad to help them out. It can mean moving them in with you. It has a whole lot of implications if you are your parents' long-term care plan. And so knowing this ahead of time might help you come up with some alternative ways to provide that care for them. You know, looking into adult day care services or helping them downsize sooner rather than later so they can divert that money that they might be using to pay for a big mortgage into a smaller mortgage and then savings for long-term care, steps that you can take to kind of soften the blow on you if you end up having to care for your parents. Wow. Okay. So there's there was a lot there.

So let's recap. First, you want to find out if your parents have a will or a living trust. And in a second, we can define those two terms. But you want to find out the answer to that question. You want to find out if they have a power of attorney. And if they don't, you want to make sure that they appoint you or a trusted sibling or somebody, a trusted somebody. A trusted somebody. Yeah.

You want to find out whether or not they have an advanced health care directive. You want to discover how they pay their bills. And then you want basic information about their bank accounts, what bills they have, what insurance policies they're currently holding, what income and debt they have, just the basic logistics of their financial life, their investments, their current real estate holdings, all of that. Yes. And the more details you can get, the better. And I think one way, a really good way to approach this, because they might not want to tell you all this information, but they might be willing to write it down. And if you can ask them to make a list of all

their accounts with their account numbers and their usernames and their passwords and put it in that safe place where all their legal documents are so you can access in case of an emergency. This might make it easier for them. And it may give you that piece of mind knowing that it's all there and tell them, you know, this is going to give you peace of mind too, mom and dad, because if I'm your power of attorney, if I'm the executor of your will, I'm going to have this accounting of everything. I'm going to know what you have. I'm going to know how to access those accounts.

I'm going to know if there are stock certificates shoved in a shoebox under your bed so we don't toss them away after you die and we're just basically throwing away your money. Because that happens. It does happen. And so ask them to write it down for you and it can make it easier for them and for you. Right. And what would you do then if the parent comes back and says, well, that's private or that's none of your business? Which they might. They very well might say that is none of your business.

Then you respectfully respond to them by saying, well, mom and dad, one day it might be my business. If something were to happen to you, if you were in an accident, if you had a stroke and you were in the hospital, if you developed dementia, who would be able to help you out? Yeah, maybe, you know, maybe mom can for a while, but what if mom is not around or what if dad's not around? who is going to be your person to help you out? And hopefully that will get them thinking. Because the truth is, maybe the details of what's in their accounts isn't necessarily your business right now, but knowing how to access them so that you can help pay their bills if something does happen to them.

That is your business. I mean, it's my business now with my mother. I manage her finances for her because she can't. as much as your parents probably don't want to have to think about that. I mean, no one does. It's a frightening thought. Trying to get them to realize that there might come a point in their life when they need your help, well, hopefully they'll start, you know, turning that over in their head and they might come around. And if they still seem reluctant, you might say, you know what, let's make a list.

Let's make a list of those instances when you would be willing to share some more information or when you think you might need some help from me. and when I could have access to this information, have them write it down, and then hang on to it because when those instances arrive, you can go back to them and say, hey, mom and dad, you agree to start sharing some information with me when A, B, and C happened. It's not ideal. It's not an ideal way to do it. But if worse comes to worse, and this is the only way you can get them to agree to share information with you, then go with it.

Use this approach. We'll come back to this episode after this word from our sponsors. Fifth Third Bank's commercial payments are fast and efficient, but they're not just fast and efficient. They're also powered by the latest in payments technology, built to evolve with your business. Fifth Third Bank has the big bank muscle to handle payments for businesses of any size. But they also have the FinTech hustle that got them named one of America's most innovative companies by Fortune Magazine. That's what being a fifth-third better is all about. It's about not being just one thing, but many things for our customers.

Big Bank Muscle, FinTech Hustle. That's your commercial payments, a fifth-third better. The holidays are right around the corner, and if you're hosting, you're going to need to get prepared. Maybe you need bedding, sheets, linens. Maybe you need serveware and cookware. And, of course, holiday decor, all the stuff to make your home a great place to host during the holidays. You can get up to 70% off during Wayfair's black. Friday sale. Wayfair has can't miss Black Friday deals all month long. I use Wayfair to get

lots of storage type of items for my home, so I got tons of shelving that's in the entryway, in the bathroom, very space saving. I have a daybed from them that's multi-purpose. You can use it as a couch, but you can sleep on it as a bed. It's got shelving. It's got drawers underneath for storage. But you can get whatever it is you want, no matter your style, no matter your budget. Wayfair has something for everyone. Plus, they have a loyalty program. 5% back on every item across Wayfair's family of brands. Free shipping, members-only sales, and more terms apply. Don't miss out on early Black Friday deals.

Head to Wayfair.com now to shop Wayfair's Black Friday deals for up to 70% off. That's W-A-Y-F-A-I-R.com. Sale ends December 7th. Now, one of the other things that you mentioned within the scope of information that should be discussed or points that should be discussed is where your parents will live. And you touched on nursing homes, assisted living, aging in place. There's a wide variety of options. Can you walk us through what some of these options are and how to discuss that with your parents,

particularly given that at least many people want to be able to stay in their home, yet sometimes that's not always possible? Yes. There are kind of two issues here because one thing is talking about when it's time to move. and the other is planning for the possibility of long-term care. And like you said, Paula, I mean, most people want to stay in their home for a variety of reasons. They feel this emotional attachment to it. They have their support system around them, their friends.

But a lot of us find that as our parents get older, and especially, you know, if they are, you know, into their 70s, their 80s already and they're still in that home, that's become too much for them to handle, they might not have those friends around them anymore. Their friends might have moved. They might no longer be living. And this is something you can point out to them because when you're talking about when it's time to move, you want to focus on the positive, not necessarily say, oh my gosh, mom and dad, this house, you just can't take care of it anymore. It's too expensive for you.

It's too much work because they're going to become defensive, right? I mean, we all do. As soon as you start kind of picking on you people, you know, they get defensive. And so you don't want to do that with mom and dad. You want to focus on the positives of moving. You know, mom and dad, I know you used to have a lot of friends in this neighborhood, but they've moved away. They're no longer around.

Wouldn't it be nice if you were in a place where there were a lot of other people your age so you could continue being social? You know, you'd have, you know, access to people. You could just knock on their door and they're right next door to you and say, hey, do you want to come over for some tea? Or do you want to play a game of bridge? Focus on the positive social aspects of moving. Focus on the positive financial benefits.

You know, mom and dad, if you sold this house and moved someplace smaller, moved into an apartment, moved into a community for the 50 plus age group, it might be cheaper for you. And then you'll have more money to do the things you enjoy, like travel or coming to visit me and the grandkids and spoiling the grandkids. Again, focus on the positive. because people do have a very strong emotional tie to their home. And sometimes just letting your parents know that you're okay with the fact that they're going to sell your childhood home might help them feel a little bit better about doing it. Because they might feel like they had this responsibility to hang on to the house because they have to host the family holiday gatherings. Or they think that you're counting on them having that house so you can come and bring the grandkids there and stay with them.

You want to let them know, mom and dad, I'm looking out for your best interest, and it might be better for you to live someplace else. It's okay with me. It's totally okay with me. I'm happy to host the family holiday gatherings from now on, you know, and we would love to fly you out to come stay with us and see the kids. You know, whatever you think is going to sell them on the idea, when you know that their house is no longer the right fit for them. Now, when it comes to like the long-term care, that can be touchier because, you know, your parents, might say, don't ever put me in a home. Never. There are surveys that have found that people would rather die than move into a nursing home. And I get it. No one never says, you know, I want to spend

my final years living in a nursing home. And if you are going to be discussing with them, you know, retirement communities and not nursing homes, but retirement communities, you need to make it very clear that there are communities out there that are geared toward older adults, active living communities. They can be like resorts. I mean, these places can be. awesome. I mean, there's one that's like a Jimmy Buffett theme retirement community, which sounds great, you know, if you like Jimmy Buffett, that is. So, you know, I have a friend who was trying to talk her mother into moving into a retirement community when her father died. And all her mom was thinking was nursing home. And she's like, I just didn't explain it right. I didn't explain what the options

were. And her mom ended up moving into another house near her brother. She can't deal with the maintenance. It's, you know, and again, it's not a good situation for her. And now she's saying, oh, I should have listened to you. So you need to explain to them that, you know, moving into a retirement community does not mean moving into a nursing home. But mom and dad, there are places out there that provide that continuum of care so that you can basically age in one place. They have independent living. They have assisted living. And they had that skilled nursing care. Now, these places are expensive. So this is not something you want to bring up with your parents, if you know that they are on a limited income, but if you know that your parents have

planned well, this is a great idea to mention to them, aging in place, the continuum of care, the independent living, the assisted living, and the nursing care. You know, but you do want to bring up the possibility that they could need care. And if you need care, where would you like that care? And most likely they're going to say in my home. So then you want to say, well, how are we going to pay for that? How are we going to make that happen? Because I would love for you to get care in your home too. But how can we make that happen?

Mom and Dad, you need to know that it's going to cost, and these are today's figures, not down the road, but mom and dad, it's going to cost about $4,500 a month to have a full-time at-home care provider. That's a lot of money. It can cost less to have, you know, someone who's there part-time, obviously. It can cost less if you want to. to take advantage of an adult daycare service. If you want to stay at home, how can we make that possible?

Maybe that means spending some money to, you know, upgrade your bathroom so that it is accessible. Or maybe it means moving to a different house now that's a one-story home as opposed to this house that has stairs and it might be difficult for you to go up and down the stairs. So helping them come up with ideas of how they can age at home and how they're going to afford it can get them thinking about these things in advance rather than when they need to make that move and you might have to make the decision for them because I had to do that for my mother. You know, initially, I did talk her into selling her home when I realized it was no longer safe for her to stay there and she lived with me for a while. And then I had to move her into assisted living when I realized she needed round the clock care.

You know, unfortunately that when I was having those conversations with her, I mean, her memory was bad enough that I could tell her, mom, I really think it's time to move into a facility where you can get the care you need. I mean, 15 minutes later, the conversation was forgotten. And so, you know, basically I was making that decision for her. So if you let your parents know, I don't want to make these decisions for you. Let's talk about it now. Like what type of facility would be okay for you if you never need to be in one?

What sort of care do you want? It allows them to have a say in it. So you're not having to make that decision. And so you know what they want. And I imagine that the challenge with not having these conversations in advance when you have to be the person who makes the decision is that you never know if the decision that you made is the one that they would have made. Yes.

And it's tough. I mean, I can tell you, it is very tough. You know, and you just have to kind of think, well, I think this would be the best. I think this is what they would want. But it is. And it's just, you're not emotional when you're talking about it before it happens. I mean, of course, it can be difficult, but it's not nearly as emotional as when it's happening.

And so, you know, pointing this out. And again, you can use that story. I was listening to this podcast, and this woman was talking about how she had to make the decision for her mother. And I don't want to have to make that decision for you, mom and dad. I want it to be your decision. And so I know this is difficult to talk about and think about. But I really would like to because more than anything, I want to uphold your wishes. I want to be able to give you the care that you want.

So make it, again, all about them. What do you do if you have siblings? or step siblings. You want to talk to them before you even start talking to mom and dad. And the reason I say this is because you don't want to, first of all, create any anger or friction or resentment

if perhaps you decide you're going to talk to mom and dad about it and you don't let them know. And then suddenly they feel like, well, why did you leave me out of this conversation? It's not a good way to start. So reach out to your siblings beforehand and say, hey, I've been thinking about this.

really think we should be talking to mom and dad about their finances, but I think we should talk first. So we can come up with a plan as to when we're going to have the conversation, whether we all want to do it, or maybe it's just one of us. And I also think that we should talk about what roles we want to play in mom and dad's life going forward. You know, I live closest. So maybe I'm going to be the one who has to drive them to doctor's appointments or help take care of them. But you, younger brother, you're really good with money things. So maybe you want to step up and volunteer to be the their power of attorney. You know, maybe you, younger sister, you're not in a good place financially right now to help out because you're just starting out. You know, you're still in college,

but that doesn't mean you shouldn't be involved. We're all going to figure this out how to do it together. We're all going to kind of come up with a plan beforehand so that when we talk to mom and dad, they're going to know that we're all on the same page and that's going to make it easier for them. If they see that we're coming to them together or at least that we've talked and even if it's just one of us having the conversation. You know, and even if you have a sibling who doesn't want to get involved for one reason and the other, say, that's okay. You know, I understand it. I understand you don't want to be involved.

But, you know, we still want to keep you updated. We're going to let you know when we have the conversation and we're going to let you know how it went. You know, and if you do have to step in and help out with your parents' finances, keep them a prize of what's going on so that they don't suspect that perhaps you're mismanaging their finances or so that there is no resentment about what you're doing. in your involvement. So try to get everyone on the same page. Now, it's not always that easy. But if you highlight, you know, like, we don't always get along. I understand. It's okay. But this is about mom and dad. It's not about us. So, you know, what I suggest in the book, which was suggested to me by a financial psychologist is to get all of you to sit down and take turns, basically kind of like in a circle. You know, you're not the first person to talk. You've called the

meeting, let your siblings talk first one at a time about, you know, what they would like to see for mom and dad, what their goals are, what their goals are in having this conversation. Let everyone have a turn to talk. You go last. And then at the end, you're going to try to reach some sort of compromise with the end goal being what's best for mom and dad. What do you do if the conversation with your siblings doesn't go well? Let's say that you have one sibling who is don't.

domineering or tries to steamroll the conversation or perhaps you have a different sibling who is just irresponsible. How do you handle those types of family dynamics? Again, you have to remind everyone that, guys, this is not about us. This is not about us. Really, this is about mom and dad. You know, we need to try to get on the same page. And certainly there can be arguing it might be very difficult to avoid. And it might take some baby steps with your siblings before you can even start taking those baby steps with your parents. But just reminding everyone again and again, this is not about us.

This is about mom and dad. And we need to make sure we do what's right for them. And what we think is right for them might not be what is right. We need to talk to them to find out what they want, what is important. Yes, big sister, you might think that mom and dad. need to sell that big old house they're living in that's, you know, a headache for them. But we can't just go in and tell them they have to do this. We have to approach it carefully.

We have to be respectful of them. And we have to help them understand gently why it might be a good idea to move or why we need to start talking about long-term care issues or why they need to have a will and a power of attorney, you know, making sure that everyone knows that it's about your parents and what they want and not what you want. And so, you know, I'm not going to promise that it's going to work out for everyone. And, you know, if it gets to the point where you guys can't all agree, you know, then you say, you know what, I understand we don't agree, but these conversations can't wait. So I'm going to try. I'm going to try to have this conversation with mom and dad. If you feel

like you are the one who should be having it. If you can't make any progress with them, try first. But if it's not going anywhere and you know that the conversations really need to start happening with mom and dad, you might have to start initiating them on your own, but just keep your siblings in the loop as to what you're doing. We'll come back to the show in just a second, but first, what do you do if your parents live in another country? For example, if you're a first generation immigrant, and the country in which your parents reside, of course, would have very different rules, laws, customs,

than the United States, how do you help them manage their finances and their lives from such a great distance, particularly when the laws and the currencies are different? It's not going to be easy, certainly. And you're right. I mean, the laws, I obviously cannot speak to the various laws in other countries, but they're going to vary. They're going to vary from what we have here in America. So you might not be going to your parents and saying, you need to make me your power of attorney because that might not even exist where they live. But you could certainly talk to them about, hey, mom and dad, if something were to happen to you and I need to make health care decisions for you or financial decisions for me, tell me how that would work

in your, you know, where you are in your country. What are the rules like in Mexico? What are the rules like in France? What are the rules like in Japan where you are? Let's discuss this because I know how things work in America. I just met with an attorney. I updated my legal documents, but I'm not sure how it works there. Tell me how it works so that if something were to happen to you, I would be able to help you. So you can start it that way. Just get them to explain. And you know what? They might not even know because they might not have even thought about this. And so hopefully that's going to prompt them to look into it themselves and say, okay, you know, if they say, you know, I'm not sure. Do you think you could look into that for me? You know, because I want to make sure I'm

prepared. And I want to make sure you're prepared. Of course, as they age and if they start having issues, that's a bigger problem. That's when, you know, you may want to start having conversations of, I know, I know you're very happy where you are, but maybe we should talk about whether it would be possible for you to ever come live here with me. I know in a lot of cultures, it is expected that the child will care for the parent as they age. And if you are already established in America, for you to leave your job and go help your parents, that's probably not going to work out. And so you want to have these conversations earlier with your parents.

You know, mom and dad, I know, I know maybe you don't speak English. Maybe it be very difficult for you to move. But if you're going to need me to care for you, really the best way for me to do that is going to to be here in America. So start having these conversations, plant these seeds in their head, and perhaps start even making plans, you know, because you don't want to wait again until there's an emergency, and it's not going to be easy for you to get them over here when their health has declined. You might want to start planning that move while they're still healthy, so it's going to be easier. And your husband is an immigrant from Ukraine, right? Yes, he is. His mother is still there.

his sister is still there. I've had these conversation with my husband because right now, his mom and his sister, her husband, they're actually all talking about moving into a house together. So, you know, I've kind of been weighing in in that conversation because I've been saying, you know, well, if they do, you know, you need to make sure it's a one-story house or at least a bathroom on the first floor so his mom can access it. I've also talked to him. I was like, you know, what if something were to happen to your sister?

you know, what about your mom? Some of the things that we've discussed is actually, it could be easier and more affordable for us if she were to remain in Ukraine and we weren't to hire someone to take care of her there. Because my husband works, I work. If we were to bring her here, that would mean one of us would have to stop working to care for her.

For us, it would perhaps make more sense to just pay someone in Ukraine to provide round-the-clock care. And then she doesn't have to leave an environment she's familiar with. And so we have had these conversations. You know, certainly if that is a possibility for you, you know, it might be better for your parents to stay where they are and for you to pay for that care if it's something that you can afford and it cannot necessarily afford.

You and I were chatting prior to when we started recording about how in many cultures it's cost. for multiple generations to live under a single roof. And that's something that you've touched on, that we've touched on during this conversation as well. Can you elaborate on that idea and kind of talk about, you know, so often we hear about like, oh, these millennials are still living with their parents. But it can also be the other way around. It can be that the parents are living with the kids or that you just have many generations living together because that's what's most efficient for. the family unit as a whole. You know, and this can go either way. It can be a good thing or not such a good thing. If it is a mutually beneficial relationship, you know, mom and dad have moved in with you, and they're still relatively healthy and they're helping take care of the grandkids. It can be a wonderful thing. You know, and even if they're not doing so well, it can still be a great opportunity if you have children of your own to bond with their grandparents. A financial planner

I interviewed for my book, he is actually added on to his house with the hopes of moving his parents in with him. He did have to talk to them out of moving out of their house because it was too big for them. They moved into an apartment and he has told them, I'm happy to move you in with me. The dad is like, no, no, no, no, no, no, thank you. The mom is like, oh, oh, you're such a wonderful son. And so, you know, he's not pushing it. He's hoping they might come around, but he loves the idea of having his children had that experience with his parents and developing and strengthening that relationship with them. I know plenty of people who are thinking, there is no way. I would ever want my parents to move in with me. But it can become a reality

if your parents are not prepared for retirement, and they haven't planned for. for long-term care. And then you find yourself suddenly in a situation where mom or dad are both are moving back in and maybe you've already downsized into a smaller home because your kids have moved out, they've gone to college, because you retired early. And that was part of your whole financial plan, downsize into a smaller space so that you have more money for your early retirement. And now a wrench has been thrown into that plan because you now need a bigger space.

so mom and dad can move in. That's the bad side of it. And that's why I really feel like these conversations are good to have before you're suddenly thrust into that situation so you can plan for it. And sometimes it means not just planning financially, but oftentimes planning emotionally, you know, for having to deal with that adjustment in your life. But sometimes it means planning emotionally to say, no. I can't do it. I am not in a position financially to support you, mom and dad, to let you move in. There's just not enough space in my house. And I know that sounds really awful. I mean, certainly if you are in a culture where you are expected to care for your parents and you've known this your entire life, you can't just turn around and say mom and dad, no. But if it has not been an expectation that you're going to care for your parents, but you see that it might happen. And you know that there's no way you can afford to. do it. There's no way you can make it happen. You're going to have to prepare yourself emotionally for saying, I'm sorry, I love you. I love you more than anything, but I am not in a position to help you

out right now. And so let's figure out, you know, how you can get by, maybe, you know, finding a place that's more affordable for you to live. But I've got my kids. I've got to pay for them. I'm struggling as it is. And so, yes, it can be a great thing, but it can also be a very difficult thing. Figuring this out beforehand, knowing that this is coming, can help you make a plan so that you're not just trying to figure it out on the fly. And so speaking of, let's say, you've already had an early retirement and you've downsized your home and you went through all of that without thinking about or planning for what if mom and dad or grandma and grandpa need to move in with me because they can't stay in their own home and I have to take them in. I think that's a good example that can kind of lead

into the broader question of how should a person who is planning for financial independence or early retirement, how should they incorporate these possibilities into that plan? You have to have that contingency plan. Like everyone I know, and I was telling you this, Paula, earlier that, you know, everyone I know who is part of the fire movement, they are big time planners and they are numbers people and they have. everything figured out, but I have to wonder how many of them have included their parents into their financial planning. How many of them have thought, okay, I've sold my house. I am now living in a tiny apartment just for a couple months of the year because usually I'm traveling or I live in a

camper. What would this do to my retirement savings if I suddenly had to move into a house so that my parents could live with me. Or, you know, what would I do if I had planned all along to travel the world and suddenly I have to give up that plan? You know, am I okay with that? Or should I be saving more? Should I build a bigger cushion into my savings to pay for my parents' care? Not because I am selfish, but because, well, I mean, I guess in part it is because, you know, you had these wonderful plans and you worked really hard to achieve them. There's nothing necessarily. There's nothing necessarily wrong with helping your parents pay for their care. And it might mean paying for their care in their home so they're comfortable, but having someone who is a professional who is trained to do that.

And you might want to build that into your retirement savings plan so that you can continue to have that financially independent early retirement lifestyle that you have been working really hard to achieve while giving your parents the care that they need. So work that into your savings goal, is being able to pay for them or understanding that you might have to give up the camper that you bought that's really cheap and buy a house. Have those contingency plans and more importantly, have your own plan. I mean, I don't know how many people who, when they are planning for early retirement, are also planning for the fact that they might need long-term care. And long-term care can really wreck your retirement savings. I will tell you, my mother's assisted living facility,

I pay $4,500 a month for it. A nursing home, it's about $80 to $90,000 a year. $80 to $90,000 of your retirement savings going toward long-term care every year. If it's just you and you still have a spouse and you've just blown through half, three-quarters of those savings for your early retirement, I mean, how's that going to affect the person you left behind? You need to be planning for long-term care. That needs to be part of your plan. And so how much money should a person who is planning for fire, how much money should they plan for these types of things?

I mean, according to Susie Orman, we all need $10 million. And we don't need $10 million. You don't. The average length of long-term care for people who need it is three years. It's a little bit longer for women, but that's an average. My mother has already been an assisted living for six years. Okay, so we're well past $100,000 for her. I can't remember off of my head. I added it up at one point. I mean, I think I'm above $300,000 at this point. For her, you don't necessarily have to have it in savings. You can get a long-term care insurance policy. You don't want to do this, though, when you're 45 years old. Well, I shouldn't say 45. I'm 46. We just recently went through the process of, you know, figuring out how much it would cost us. You don't want to do it when you're 35 because long-term care. insurance is expensive, the premiums are not cheap. And if you start paying when you're 35 for insurance that you might never need, you're going to be spending a whole lot of money on long-term care

insurance premiums. If this is a path you want to go down, maybe by the time you're 50, when you're still in pretty good health and you can get a good premium, we're talking if you are in good health and if you want to get a joint policy with a spouse, it's actually cost you less. I mean, around maybe $300 a month, which isn't cheap. Now, you could set that money aside into stocks and let it grow. And maybe that's your dedicated long-term care fund. You know, I'm not going to touch that money. This is my special money for long-term care.

You can get a life insurance, like a whole life insurance policy with a long-term care benefit so that someone's bound to get the money one way or the other, either your beneficiaries, or you get it for long-term care. There are a variety of options out there with different expenses. You have to pick one and you have to make that part of your plan. So that touches on buying long-term care for yourself, anticipating your own future. But in terms of needing to support your parents, how do you bake that into a fire strategy? So you either talk to them about, you know, have to you. the conversation, mom and dad, do you have a long-term care plan? Can you afford it? So that's your first

step. Find out whether your parents can afford it. If they cannot afford it, of course, you know, it's not guaranteed that your parents are going to need it, but there is a pretty good chance. Like nearly half of adults who, once they reach age 65, are going to need some form of long-term care. So there's a pretty good chance that your parents, one of them, one need long-term care. If you know they're not going to be able to afford it, you either A, can start setting aside money to pay for their care, B, realize that you might have to care for your parents and factor that into your plans, maybe realizing that you don't want to sell your house, stay in it so that you can move your parents in with you, realize that, you know, you want to do a lot

of travel early on so that you can be close to home as your parents get older in case they need your help. But, you know, realizing that you save or you plan to care for them and consider that as something that could be very much a reality in your early retirement. Excellent. Well, thank you. Are there any major points that we haven't touched on? And is there anything that you'd like to emphasize? You know, I think we covered so much, and I hope that we're not overwhelming people. And believe it or not, there's even a lot more detail in the book, a whole lot more detail. I've got a lot of sample conversation starters and even like language that you can use when talking to your parents. You know, I talk about preparing your own finances if you do have to

help your parents. You know, I also talk about, you know, making sure your finances are prepared so that your kids aren't going to have to support you. But more than anything, the thing I want people to realize that is most important is that these conversations cannot wait. I made that mistake with my mom. I don't want other people to make those mistakes because the longer you wait, the fewer options you have to deal with these emergencies when they arise. You might not have the legal documents in place. Finances might not be in place. So please don't wait to have these conversations. There is no magic moment for having them. Start slowly, test the waters. Don't give up. Keep trying different approaches. And then hopefully your parents will come

around and by the end of it all, they're all going to be like, you know, I'm really, I'm really glad we had these conversations. Cameron, thank you so much for spending this time with us. What are some of our key takeaways? Here are four. Key takeaway number one. If your parents are reluctant to talk about these topics, or if you are reluctant or shy or embarrassed about bringing up this subject, try introducing it through telling a story.

So, for example, go to your parents and say, Hey, I just found out that so-and-so, their dad or mom passed away without leaving them any information about how to get into their accounts, how to manage things. What accounts do they have and what insurance policies do they have and how do they deal with all of this paperwork? Parent didn't leave any information and now so-and-so is really stressed out and doesn't know what to do. Start by telling a story about somebody else, and that can often be the gateway into having this conversation within your... own family. Maybe someone you know whose father died without a will and you can share how it was difficult for her family because there was there was a stepmother and a stepbrother involved. And so mom and dad, let's make sure that this doesn't happen to us or you can talk about a friend

who had to stop working to care for a mother with dementia. How can we plan for this? So using a story is a great way to get these conversations started. So that's the first key to takeaway, this is a delicate topic, so introducing it through a story is a soft way to lead into this difficult conversation. Key takeaway number two. If your parents are reluctant to talk about these topics, or again, if you are reluctant or shy about bringing it up, another way that you could try to introduce it is by asking your parents for advice about what you should do. A really natural way to start the conversation is by asking your parents for advice. because this is what parents love to do. They love to give advice to their kids. And so you can come at it

from the angle of, hey, mom and dad, I just started a new job. I have the opportunity to contribute to a retirement account. What do you think? Is this a good idea? Or I just got married. Do I need a will? Do I need life insurance? What did you do? And then use their responses to keep the conversation going and the direction that you wanted to go. So for example, if you say, hey, mom and dad, I have been thinking about creating an estate plan and I'm not sure if I should have a will or create a trust. What do you think? Ask them for that advice. And regardless of what they say, regardless of the answer that they give, what that will do is open up a conversation about estate planning generally. And so that's another soft approach into a hard conversation. So that's

the second key takeaway. Key takeaway number three. During these conversations, there are three things that you should find out immediately. And I'll let Cameron explain exactly what those are. You definitely want to find out. If the only thing you can find out is this, you want to find out whether they have a will or a living trust, power of attorney, and the advanced health care directive. So this is a very straightforward takeaway.

The first three things to find out during these conversations are, do they have a will or a living trust, do they have a power of attorney, and do they have an advanced health care directive? Those are the top three things. If you find out nothing else, find out the answers to those. But in addition, there are, ideally, several other things that you should learn as well. And here I will let Cameron describe it again.

The idea isn't to necessarily find out the dollar amount. You just want to figure out how they're doing things, how the bills are paid, where they're banking, what systems they have in place. you want to find out what sources of income they're going to have in retirement if you can. Is it just going to be Social Security? Is there a pension? Do they have retirement savings? You want to find out if they have a long-term care plan. Because this is a big one. This is going to affect you personally. Most adults do not have long-term care insurance, which is the only type of insurance that will pay for long-term care. Medicare does not pay for long-term care. Medicaid will,

but you have to be very low income to qualify. You have to have very few assets to qualify for Medicaid. And it only pays for nursing home care and care at home. It's not going to pay for the type of care that my mom is currently getting and assisted living. For most people, their children end up being their long-term care plan. So that's the third key takeaway. These are the things that you need to know. Finally, key takeaway number four.

Ask your parents to write everything down, including their account names, their account numbers, and their passwords. Because you or your siblings will be responsible for accessing this information. They might not want to tell you all this information, but they might be willing to write it down. And if you can ask them to make a list of all their accounts with their account numbers and their usernames and their passwords and put it in that safe place where all their legal documents are

so you can access in case of an emergency, see, this might make it easier for them. Now, another option is that you can use an online password manager, such as LastPass, in order to store all of this data. That way, you only need to know one master password. And your parents can include that master password in the family safe or within their will or their trust. They can include that master password in some documents that you will receive at the appropriate time.

and you can then use that master password to access their last pass, which then allows you to access and manage all of their accounts. It's a delicate issue because you're balancing their need for privacy and security, and their need, quite frankly, to safeguard themselves against financial fraud committed against elders, which oftentimes originates inside of the family. They have a strong need to protect themselves against that, while also making sure that their beneficiaries can appropriately manage. manage accounts as needed. And that's the reason why you shouldn't necessarily get this information yet. You shouldn't have their account numbers and passwords now. But it should be somewhere where you can access it or somebody can access it. The appropriate designated person can access it

when they are no longer around to do so. And so those are four key takeaways from this conversation with Cameron Huddleston. These are all highly actionable takeaways. And I do recommend her book, her book is called Mom and Dad, We Need to Talk, there's a wealth of information inside of that around exactly what information to gather, how the conversations can be structured, what documents to make sure that you have, and overall how to plan for this very challenging phase of life. That is our show for today. Thank you so much for tuning in. My name is Paula Pant. You can follow me on Instagram at Paula Pant, P-A-U-L-A. P-A. P-A. P-A. I am doing a bunch of travel right now in the past three weeks. I've been to Mexico City, San Diego, L.A. and Vancouver,

Canada. And I'm now currently in Vegas for a few days. And then after this, I'm leaving for my one month sabbatical. Actually, it's five weeks long. I am going to be going to Croatia for one week, then Slovenia for one week, and then Washington, D.C. for one week. And then Washington, D. week and the Japan for two weeks. So if you want to follow along, see some cool travel photos, check out the F-I lifestyle. You can follow along on Instagram at Paula Pant. That's P-A-U-L-A, P-A-N-T. If you enjoyed today's episode, please do three things. Number one, most importantly, share this with a friend or a family member. That is the single most important way that you can spread the message of good financial habits. Number two, please remember to follow or

subscribe to this podcast in whatever app you're using to listen to this podcast. And number three, please leave us a review. These reviews are extremely helpful in allowing us to book awesome guests on this show. If you go to afford anything.com slash iTunes, that will redirect you to the page on the Apple Podcast website where you can leave a review. And as of the time of this recording, we have more than 1,700 ratings on. Apple Podcast. So please help us get to 2000. I would love to reach 2000 by the end of the year. Please help us do it. That's afford anything.com slash iTunes or you can open up the Apple podcast app if you have that on your phone. Thank you again for tuning in. My name is Paula Pan.

This is the Afford Anything podcast. I'll catch you next week.