Afford Anything - Invest Anywhere: Learn About a City Like an Expert

Episode Date: November 4, 2022

#411: In the final installment of this two-part mini-series, we walk you through becoming a subject matter expert in your investment city of choice. We discuss who you should talk to, where you can find them and what you should talk to them about. Timing of discussion points as of November 2022: 06:11: Who you should talk to  10:09: Why conversations with non- real estate professionals are important 11:49: Where to meet other real estate investors 13:19: Expanding your network, character due diligence and making friends 13:59: Thinking through others cognitive biases 15:56: Potential implications of neighborhoods with “good cash flow” 20:57: An example of objective feedback 29:40: Dumpsters, sewers, permits and problems: Other specifics to discuss For more information, visit the show notes at https://affordanything.com/episode411 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You can afford anything, but not everything. Every choice that you make is a trade-off against something else. And that doesn't just apply to your money. That applies to your time, your focus, your energy, your attention, to any limited resource that you need to manage. Saying yes to something implicitly carries trade-offs, and that opens up two questions. First, what matters most?

And second, how do you align your decision-making around that which matters most? answering these two questions is a lifetime practice. And that's what this podcast is here to explore and facilitate. My name is Paula Pant. I am the host of the Afford Anything podcast. Typically, we're a weekly show. We normally air on Wednesday, ish. Ish.

Right? Ish. Pretty much everything I do is like an ish. But once a month, very consistently once a month, on the first Friday of the month, we air a first Friday bonus episode. co-hosted with Sonny Rao. What's up, Sunny? Hello, it's the disembodied ghost voice entering the intro. Surprise. What's up, Paula? I'm excited for today's episode. So today we're doing part two of what we started on the last first Friday. This is the first Friday of November.

So the first Friday of last month, the first Friday of October, we started this episode, deep diving into the facts about a city that you might be interested in investing in as a long-distance real estate investor. We did part one last month. We're doing part two today. All about becoming a subject matter expert in a city you know nothing about. And I know, Sonny, for the people who are tuning in for the first time, you used to live in Boston. Yes. And from Boston, you were investing in Indianapolis. You were investing long distance without living there, without really knowing people there in the beginning.

Without ever actually setting foot in the city. So I know a little bit of becoming a subject matter expert and intensely studying in an area until you feel comfortable investing there. Awesome. So we're going to cover that today if you are tuning in for the first time and you want to hear part one of this. Part one is episode 406. You can tune into that by going to afford anything.com slash episode 406. and we have this awesome free giveaway. It's a shortcut to everything that we discussed in that episode.

If you go to afford anything.com slash episode 406, there's a giant yellow box. You can just hit that button, download it. It's a totally free cheat sheet. It's a checklist to everything that you want to know, need to know, about how to deep dive into learning about a city that you want to invest in. So if you live in L.A. or New York or Chicago or San Diego, you live in a high cost of living area. You've always wanted to invest in real estate. You don't have to keep this list of things you need to research online in your head. This lives on the Afford Anything website. Go downloaded. Hang on to it. Look at it.

And when you're ready to do your research, you have it right in front of you. Exactly, exactly. So afford anything.com slash episode 406. And you know what? We'll also put it on the show notes for this episode as well. So afford anything.com slash episode 411. You can go to either of those and download it right there. Boom. And for those of you who are not familiar with our first Friday series, on the first Friday of every month, we host this particular series that's called Invest Anywhere. And it's devoted to deep-dive into the topic of how to invest in properties that are long distance. Not in your backyard. Sometimes several hours away. It's not a place where you can easily visit or learn or a place where maybe you don't always have contacts. But that doesn't mean that should stop you from being able to progress your financial future. We're here to help you learn how to navigate any and all of those obstacles.

We want to make real estate investing approachable for everyone. It really should be, right? not just the hedge funds on Wall Street. And we want to make sure that no matter where you live, you have the opportunity to gain the know-how to invest in real estate at a distance so that collectively we can all move wealth back into the hands of ordinary people. Like us. Like us.

Yes. All right. Diving right into part two. Let's go. In episode 406, we talked a lot about what research. you want, what data you want. In today's episode, we're not going to cover the what. We're going to cover who you should talk to, where you can find them. And the things you should talk to them about, because finding all this information online is so important. Doing your due diligence

and your research ahead of time is critical. However, there can be changes in a space, in a neighborhood that you have no idea about, and things are always changing in different neighborhoods. So to be able to talk to people and get that real-time feedback is the second part of truly understanding the area you want to park your money in. You know what? I think of it kind of like being a news reporter. Reporters do online research. Like they do a bunch of investigative research on a story, but then they talk to sources. Same, same.

Yeah, totally. That makes sense. I have journalism brain right now, though. Like when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. I mean, that is like the majority of it. our conversations. I say something. You're like, you know what? This is very similar to journalism. I'm like, okay. Cool. We went there again. All right. So who are our sources here? Who should we be talking to? Honestly, everyone.

Everyone has some value and some feedback on their surrounding landscape. So obviously, you're going to have your real estate professionals. You're going to have the property managers who know what kind of tenants prefer which areas, how those tenants, behave, whether those tenants stay long-term, whether they take care of their property, whether they're easier to manage on very general terms. You have your real estate agents who know which properties in which areas are very competitive to purchase in and which areas might be developing, but some people might not yet be aware of those hidden gems. You have your contractors who are... Contractors are the best because no one ever thinks to ask them. Like, plumbly,

Plummers know where they're getting more jobs, right? A plumber is going to be able to tell you, hey, I've been called out to projects in all of these different neighborhoods to like plumbing projects in all these different neighborhoods. And no one ever thinks to ask them. No, they don't. And plumbing water problems. That has been the bane of my existence on and off for the last year and a half. Those are huge issues. Plumbers know everything. There's actually specific neighborhoods outside of Indianapolis where I will never invest. of people invest. I will never invest. Why? Because I've heard about how many sewer lines have collapsed in those areas. And if anyone has ever dealt with a sewer line, let me tell you, it is not fun. It is not cheap. And so I just want to stay out of those areas in general to keep my headache at a

minimum. And that's the things people oftentimes, and it's great to talk to property managers and agents. The good ones know their stuff. Absolutely. But electricians, plumbers, general contractors. They are in these homes. And that is where so many of your expenses as an investor can really add up. So why not talk to the people who are directly involved in that area of risk? Right. And so to the person who lives in Seattle or San Diego or Boston, who's listening to this right now and who's like, but how do I meet those people? How do I know those people. And we'll dive into this more in more detail, deeper into the show. But if that's the burning question in your brain right now, frankly, and again, I'll go back to how news reporters

develop sources. Surprise, surprise. We're back. Frankly, if sometimes it's just a matter of looking up a bunch of them and just starting to make calls and it becomes the law of large numbers, If you call 12 plumbers, one of them is likely to talk to you. You call them and you're like, hey, hi, I'm so-and-so. I live in Boston. I'm thinking about buying a property in your area. I'm specifically curious about neighborhoods X, Y, and Z. I was wondering, do you do a lot of work there?

Can you tell me about the municipal sewer lines there? Can you tell me if you're getting a lot of projects there? And if so, is that because there's a lot of construction and renovation? happening or is it because there are just a lot of problems? And that's also a good way to build a relationship because once you buy the property, you're going to need a plumber, right? Right. At some point, you will need a plumber. So it's a really good way to build that foundational communication, that relationship before you actually need to call them in an emergency. And then if you actually go to the city, if you decide that you want to make a visit,

one of the best parts about being able to visit that city is that you can talk to people who are not in the real estate space at all. Yeah, and that's a really good way to get feedback as well. Because different people pay attention to different things. Those not in real estate can also provide a ton of really valuable feedback. Burista servers, Uber drivers, they know what's happening in the areas around them. They know where the traffic is because maybe they get stuck in it. They know where restaurants are opening because maybe that's where they will be employed. They have a pulse on the local environment. With the feedback they're giving you, you can look into that further, i.e., why is there

traffic? Are there new subdivisions being built in that area? Is there new construction that will allow the roads to flow more freely, which will make it more accessible to people downtown, that sort of thing? All of that will impact property values and demand. for housing in those areas. So talking to locals, understanding what their pain points are or what they're excited about, and digging into those specific points can really provide feedback about what could be a good long-term real estate play. You know, oftentimes I'll ask a barista or a server,

like, hey, where do you live? What part of town do you live in? What neighborhood do you live in? And then they'll be like, oh, I'm in the Meridian Kessler neighborhood. And I'm like, cool, do you like it? And just that cool, do you like it? That often opens up to a great conversation. Absolutely. The other category of people that you can talk to are, Sonny, frankly, people like you and me, other investors.

Absolutely. Personally, I have found these to be the most valuable. We've talked about relationship building multiple times throughout the Invest Anywhere series. And the relationships with the other investors are. worth their weight in gold. Other investors can be met at real estate meetups. Most cities have real estate meetups. Real estate investing has become so much more mainstream than it was even two or three years ago. Yeah. So there are a lot of Facebook groups where investors congregate online. We have an online community through our rental property course, your first rental property,

where people will get information from others on specific locations and or what they're seeing. There's also the bigger pockets online community where a lot of people gather to exchange information. The biggest thing, honestly, is just to make friends. Let's really push to stop. Just like looking for information. Like it's really about the friendships that you build. Those are the people that you will call when you have an emergency, right? The people you like and trust and vice versa. And it's important to not just ask what they're seeing. Like, ask them who they work with, who they recommend, who they don't recommend, ask to talk. to those people. Every time you connect with one person, see if there's one or two people

they can connect you with that they trust. And then you can also do character due diligence on each person based upon who they recommend and how those ensuing conversations go. So you almost develop kind of, I don't know if this is the right term, like a neural network or a network in your mind of what works and what doesn't. And then you also know if you reach out to them, how much you can trust the feedback that they give you, how much it is aligned with your own thinking. Right. And so building that network is super, super important, critical, helpful, beneficial. And then also ask how you can help them. Be easy to work with. Sometimes people just need help writing letters for direct marketing. Sometimes people just need a friend to talk to when

things are hitting the fan. Be there. Be a support system for the other investors that you meet. And it's really incredible how that can come back to help you tenfold. Everybody wants to help and work with people they like, right? Exactly, exactly. It's not rocket science. So we've just covered a list of who to talk to. The short answer is essentially everyone. But as you're talking to all of these people, whether it's a barista or a plumber or a property manager or another investor,

everything they say needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Absolutely. People will tend to give feedback. Each and every one of us does this. We tend to give feedback based upon our own biases, our own criteria, what works well for us, what we think is important. What I think is important might not work for you, Paula. And that applies to most of the relationships you make. Everyone is coming from a different life setting with slightly different goals, slightly different risk, tolerance, etc.

So it is your job as an investor to, yeah, keep an open mind, listen, ask questions, but also dig into what they are saying and see how that would apply to you or see how maybe their own inherent biases, which aren't always bad, how those biases might impact what they would recommend. Right. So for example, if someone gives you a subjective opinion, if someone says this is a good neighborhood or this is a bad neighborhood. This is my pet peeve. Yeah. Right. So what they are communicating in that moment is their judgment about a neighborhood, and you don't actually want their judgment. You want the underlying facts or criteria so that you can then make your own judgment. Yeah, like what drove their judgment? Exactly. An example of this is, is this a good neighborhood for cash flow? Does this have good cash flow? I heard this so often when I

started investing. And you know what? It's really hilarious to see how people's investment journeys change over time. I think all of our investment journeys change over time. My own investment journey from day one has been very different in my criteria and the things that I look for are very different now compared to what I look for when I first started. And there are other things that I definitely wouldn't change based upon what I learn. One of those things was the term good cash flow. This is a statement of projected cash flow. They're saying this would be good cash flow if nothing bad ever happened. Right. Good theoretical cash flow. So for example, a person might say, oh, this neighborhood has great cash flow. But again, that even though it sounds, it sounds like a professional assessment

because cash flow is the type of specific thing that an investor would discuss. It has that veneer of this is a professional assessment, but it's oftentimes actually just an undatatabacked, unsupported, subjective judgment in sheep's clothing. Absolutely. And then it is up to you to dig into that statement. Why is there good cash flow? For long-term rental strategies, good cash flow typically refers to the margin between the mortgage payment and the rent that's coming in from the tenant each month. And so if there's good cash flow, that means that margin's pretty thick, right? Why is that margin thick? Is it because property prices are lower in that area than surrounding areas? Probably. Why are property prices lower in that area? It could be because there's a lot of traffic.

It is a hard place for people to get in and out of if they have jobs in other areas. areas. It could be because school districts have a slightly lower ranking. It could be due to different characteristics. Who knows? There's so many ways that this could play out, right? Maybe it's close to an airport and really noisy. Oh my gosh. That is also true. Yeah. Yeah. All of these factors just point to an area where there's less demand to live there, which is what keeps property prices lower. Right. Higher vacancy, higher turnover. which means that in the months where you have tenant occupancy, you might be getting higher cash flow, but the higher vacancy and higher turnover might yield similar or worse total returns.

And at the end of the day, what you care about are your total returns. Yes. And statements like this is a neighborhood for good cash flow really tend to speak to expectations of performance, a property pro forma. Exactly. There's a concept in real estate called pro forma, which the joke is that's just a synonym for BS. And pro forma is essentially a fancy technical way of saying theoretical. This is theoretically what might happen, assuming all of these other conditions fall into place. Right.

Assuming that you have high occupancy and low turnover, et cetera, et cetera. And real estate investing is the land of surprises. Yeah. So you really can't make assumptions like that. Thinking worst case scenario actually helps because then you're laughing all the way to the bank. You know, the other thing that I often heard when I talk to people, particularly people who didn't have a lot of experience in investing, and never assume that a real estate agent or a property manager, but especially an agent, never assume that they know jack about investing. Accurate. I used to be a licensed real estate agent. I have been through the training. My license is expired because I never used it, so it wasn't worth renewing. But I used to be a licensed agent, and I can tell you there is no part of that training in which you learn how to be a good investor. You learn in that training how to be an agent, which means you learn how to fill in the blank on some preprinted legal forms. That's what you learn. When I got started, I lacked confidence. and therefore made the assumption that if somebody was a licensed agent, they were more knowledgeable about investing than I was. And then they would make these superficial statements like,

oh, this is such a cute neighborhood. I think the values are really going to go up. But cute is not a defining criteria. Are you sure? I guarantee you there are no professional investors, there are no Wall Street hedge funds who are watching decks prepared by overworked consultants in which someone is standing up there saying, well, this is cute. I just snorted because a little bit of that was my former life.

My background was in corporate finance. And I'm just remembering those days. Right. But anyway. And as a mom and pop investor, that's your competition. Either we buy the rental properties or the hedge funds do. That's a great point. If we're not looking at cute,

maybe we should take a look at the kind of objective feedback that we're looking for, right? So what does that sound like? That can be a statement like, students prefer student housing on these streets because of the bus line and the bus line will be expanding to these other areas. Boom. Yeah. Which can then help someone who's maybe interested in a boarding house rental strategy for students.

And as a litmus test, that's the type of thing you can imagine being on a slide. If someone's watching a deck of professional investors or watching a presentation, the expansion of a bus line and the way that that projected bus line expansion will serve student housing on. on these very specific streets, that is the type of thing that you would see on a professional investor deck. Absolutely. And that is a very good mental litmus test of is somebody giving you subjective judgment, like, oh, this is cute? Or, eh, no, that's bad.

I wouldn't go there. Is someone passing judgment or is someone giving you data-driven information? The big takeaway here is that you need the data to make. make the right decision for your strategy. And the data will help you evaluate the neighborhood's impact on your goals and what it will take to be successful in that area. And before you visit a city, you'll pull as much data as possible online. But there's a certain degree and depth, like both breadth and depth of understanding this that hits differently when it comes from interviewing sources. Something like this.

happened to you, right? When you traveled to Indy to evaluate Indianapolis as an investment area, I believe you were out east and you thought from what could be seen online was a good investment area. But once you're actually on the ground, things change, right? Yeah, I was living in Las Vegas at the time. I'd never been to Indianapolis before, never set foot there and gathered a lot of data online and identified specific neighborhoods based on that. But then when I went there and I actually drove it myself, the look, the feel, the distance, yeah, the distance from establishments like a grocery store, it hits different when you're driving it than it does when you're looking at it on a map.

Totally. And that's because the same two miles does not feel the same. You know, two miles in one particular neighborhood where the streets are easy to drive feels very different than two miles in a more congested neighborhood. We're talking about accessibility. Yeah, exactly. Those same two miles have varying levels of friction, and that impacts desirability and user behavior.

And that's something that you can really only feel when you're on the ground. That's a great way to put it friction and user behavior. That's so accurate. We're going to pause here to take a break for a word from our sponsors, and when we return, we'll discuss other criteria to consider. Stick around. Fifth Third Bank's commercial payments are fast and efficient, but they're not just fast and efficient.

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Don't miss out on early Black Friday deals. Head to Wayfair.com now to shop Wayfair's Black Friday deals for up to 70% off. That's W-A-F-A-I-R.com. Sale ends December 7th. Welcome back. Thanks. It's good to be here. So we were just talking about, you know, if you live in an expensive coastal city, you live in Portland, Oregon, or Washington, D.C., and you are chatting with people in a city that you might want to invest in, a lower cost of living city like Wichita or Cincinnati or Omaha. What else should you be asking about? Specific questions, like where are their dumpsters dotting the neighborhoods?

If you're not talking to a real estate professional, they might not always understand what those dumpsters mean. Usually those dumpsters mean that there is a large rehab taking place. And the construction crew needs a place to collect all the trash. Right. If there's a large rehab taking place. You're talking dumpsters in the driveways, driveway dumpsters. Yeah. Yes, in the driveways on the front lawns.

Also porta potty. that means that there are people working on that property, which means that that property is going to be improved, which should have a positive impact on the property value of that home as well as others around it. What about when you're talking to other investors? And that makes sense in terms of you're talking to a server or a barista or an Uber driver and you're like, hey, what are you seeing in your own neighborhoods? You might ask them, are you seeing a lot of driveway dumpsters? Are you seeing a lot of porta-potties? What about when you're talking to other investors? Other investors love to talk about their problems.

So things like permits. If you're trying to improve a property, if you're trying to get some major infrastructure set up or updated, whether that's electrical, whether that's plumbing, whether that's adding an ADU, is it difficult to get those permits? Is that increasing construction time? And to be clear, in a given city, in a Wichita or Cincinnati, not every neighborhood is going to have the same level of difficulty because the permits are issued by local leaders. And oftentimes in a city that's sufficiently large, like Cincinnati, there might

be different zones or different districts that are governed by different local leaders, which means the permitting process and the permitting offices could be very different. That's certainly the case in Atlanta where you've got DeKalb County, Fulton County, Cobb County, you've got all this big mess of counties, all of whom govern different aspects of what is broadly known as Metro Atlanta. And then there are more specific issues. Like we mentioned sewer lines earlier, the problems that many investors have with sewer lines have to do with the fact that tree roots can grow into them, which then require the sewer line to be replaced. So when you're driving a neighborhood, that's established and you see these big beautiful oak trees and you're like, oh, this is just

magnificent what you could also be seeing. What I see is, oh my gosh, this could be a total nightmare. Right. And if you want to know what that nightmare can look like, it can look like your tenants or your Airbnb guest not being able to flush a toilet in their one bathroom home. you scrambling to find other housing for them, scrambling to get a plumbing company in, scrambling to get permits to excavate and dig up the sewer line, put in a new sewer line, which has cost me between $5,000 to $10,000 each time. I've done this more than once. And so knowing the implications of some of these conversations, the benefits of the big beautiful oak tree. as well as the drawback of a new sewer line.

That can be really helpful when you're evaluating an area. Right, right. So essentially, if a person tells you that it's a gorgeous neighborhood with lots of old-growth trees, get a sewer scope. Yeah, get a sewer scope. And also, I mean, that also has traffic implications, right? Oftentimes those types of neighborhoods have narrower streets, which means there's tighter traffic, particularly at rush hour. Maybe there aren't dedicated left turn lanes. So if one person wants to turn left, it holds up the entire line of traffic. Which can then increase turnover and vacancy costs because people will live there a year and be like, it takes me three hours to get out of my neighborhood. I need to find a new place.

Beyond sewer lines, what are some other specific concerns? Some of the specific concerns that I've seen have been exposure to radon. termites can be an issue depending on what part of the country and your climate. Localized flooding, depending on your topography. And that localized flooding is particularly a concern in desert areas. I lived in Las Vegas for five years. If you're an out-of-state investor who isn't familiar with the desert, you might not think of flooding because you may only think of flooding as something that happens in a hurricane-prone zone.

But a desert can't rapidly absorb rainfall. It takes very little rain to cause flooding in a desert. And if you're an out-of-state investor who isn't familiar with that reality, you might be surprised to learn that your Las Vegas basement flooded. And actually, I say that with an asterisk because quite honestly, I don't think I ever found a house with the basement in Vegas for precisely that reason. Yeah, I purchased a property that had a basement that had been finished into a living space, but then not waterproofed accordingly. Oh, oh. That thing was a money pit.

It just kept flooding and nobody knew why. None of my contractors knew why. Oh, that is the worst. That's terrible. So those are the types of stories that you get from having. conversations with other investors because, Sonny, I'm assuming that basement was an Indianapolis? Yeah. What neighborhood was it?

It was close to South Side. Cool. And were there other in that area? Do you think there would be other basements that would have suffered a similar fate? Oh, absolutely. 100%. In Indianapolis in general, yeah. Cool.

So Indian general and that neighborhood in particular? Yeah. Yeah. Cool. All right. See? So that's something that I've just learned, that we've all just learned. about Indy that you might not have to think about if you were investing in Cleveland or Bozeman or Cheyenne.

Conversations around neighborhood reconnaissance don't just have to revolve around risk exposure, right? It can also help you uncover opportunities. For example, you want to invest in Class A properties. Those homes are so expensive and you don't know how you're ever going to cash flow. Maybe another opportunity you can ask about would be office spaces. Find a way to give the population amenities that they want. Find an office space with a triple net lease. Or maybe look into a different type of residential housing, like a luxury mobile home park for retirees.

And that's a great point because oftentimes when people hear the phrase mobile home park, they immediately think of only one specific type of mobile home park, but there's a wide variety. So that luxury park for retirees that's next to the lake. That's a very different investment than maybe a mobile home park that is in a lower cost of living area. Exactly. And those are all different ways of getting to a Class A property if that's what you want to do. So think creatively. There are many approaches to the same goal.

So those are some of the issues to be alert for, to discuss with other investors and with real estate professionals, as well as with people who live in the city who are not in the real estate space and see things from a different frame. We've covered who to talk to, where to find them, what to discuss. This is how you generate what's known in the investing world as Scuttlebutt. which is just an old-fashionedy way of saying, chat with people and gather information so that you know where those oak trees are that are going to turn into sewer problems down the road, or so that you can tap into that luxury mobile home park

next to the lake that draws a bunch of retirees. And so that wraps part two of this two-part series on what to do. Once you've decided that you want to invest in Cheyenne or Billings or Albuquerque, you've chosen your city. Now you want more information. This is part two of this two-part series on it. And again, if you want to download a checklist of all of this,

a total cheat sheet guide, go to the show notes, afford anything.com slash episode 411, 411. There's a giant yellow box there. Click on it, and you will download our free cheat sheet that covers all of this. Again, that's afford anything.com slash episode 411. All right, Sunny, we've done it again.

Woo-hoo. Well, Sunny, thank you for sharing all of your research and knowledge and experience. I hope that you never have to deal with a sewer problem again. Yeah, that makes two of us, thanks. This is the Invest Anywhere series, a special first Friday of the month bonus series, That is part of the Afford Anything podcast.

I am Paula Pant. I'm Sunny Rao. We will catch you in the next episode. Don't forget to download the cheat sheet for free at Affordainthing.com slash episode 411.