Afford Anything - Life After Financial Freedom, with Brandon - the Mad FIentist

Episode Date: October 23, 2017

#100: Over a year-and-a-half and two million plus downloads later, the Afford Anything podcast has hit another awesome milestone: the 100th episode! To celebrate, I recorded this one live from Ecuador with my good friend Brandon, otherwise known as the Mad FIentist. If you've been a listener since the early days, you may remember Brandon from episode #7. He was the first guest to appear on the podcast, and I'm thrilled to have him back on for round two! In this episode, we focus on life after financial freedom: What projects has Brandon been working on? What are the biggest lessons he's learned from being FI so far? How does he maintain motivation to get things done now that money isn't an issue? What does a typical day look like for Brandon? How Brandon's wife became a FIentist after some initial resistance. Why full-time travel after FI didn't work out for him and more! Enjoy, and thanks for listening! For show notes, go to http://affordanything.com/episode100  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You can afford anything but not everything. Every decision that you make is a trade-off against something else. And that's true, not just of your money, but also your time, energy, focus, attention, anything in your life that's a scarce or limited resource. And so the questions are twofold. What's most important to you? And how do you align your behaviors to reflect those values? Answering that is a lifetime question. That's what we're here to explore.

This is episode 100. And this is an important. In order to celebrate, I invited my good, good friend Brandon, the mad scientist. So normally we never do video podcasts. Normally, this is audio only. But today, to celebrate episode 100, we're shooting a video podcast. And Brandon, you were my very first guest. I was, yes. Way back in the early days. Yep, no, it was great. So I'm excited to do it again. Sweet. So you and I have known each other for a long time, yeah?

Yeah, 2013, I think, was the first time we met? celebrated your 30th birthday party. Yeah. And St. Louis at FinCon, so yeah. And at the time that we met, you were working towards FI. Tell us, especially for the people who don't know you, why did you become interested in that? How did you become interested in that?

And how did you do it? Yeah, so I've always been good with money. Money was like a core focus for me. Even since I was a little kid, my parents used to make fun of me for like always wanting to know about money and they would keep me busy by throwing coins in the deep end of the pool. And I would find one. And then the rest of the day, I would just spend searching for more money in the bottom of the pool.

Money was always really interesting to me. But I wanted to be rich, but I didn't really have a point for being rich. Like I don't like fancy cars and big houses just seem inefficient. So I don't know what I was going to do once I became rich, but it was always like a focus. And I just wanted to have money to manage. So I was always a good saver when I started my first. career, you know, I was saving and investing and doing all the things, you know, investing in retirement accounts and all of that stuff. But it wasn't really for anything in particular. But then

I think it was probably in 2011, I came across a website called Early Retirement Extreme.com and that just blew my mind. It was just like, oh, I can buy my freedom. And my freedom is definitely something that I would love to spend my money on and invest towards. So it was then that I was like, okay, well, yeah, this is what I've been. saving for all these years. So shortly after that, in 2012, I started the mad scientist because I knew there was going to be ways for me to get there quicker if I did the research, but I knew I wouldn't really do the research into that if I didn't have some sort of external stimulation to do that. So I figured, like, well, if I start off site and I write about it, then the need to put out

new articles will then make me do the research that will hopefully help me get to financial dependence quicker. And at the same time, I started my podcast because I wanted to talk to people like you, you were my third guest way back in the day. So yeah, we, although we only met in 2013, I think I interviewed you earlier in that year. So you were one of my first guests as well. But I haven't made it anywhere near 100 yet. So I think I'm still at like 35 or something. I'm a bigger slacker when it comes to podcasting than you are, obviously. What was some of the research that you did? What are some examples? Yeah. So when I started it, I thought like I could be a better investor. So I thought, like, I could be a better

investor. So I thought that I would be able to pick stocks and invest wisely and maybe use options or something like that. But then I quickly realized that passive investing is the way to go. It's got a higher probability of success. It's lower expenses, lower fees, lower taxes. So that was like the optimal path. So once I did that, I was just like, well, well, what's, I want to, I want to optimize. I don't want to keep, I don't want to just like be on this path passively. I want to optimize my path this school of financial independence. So the next thing I started investigating was like tax avoidance. And like for people who want to retire early, we're so different than standard retirees

because, you know, we have this high income years when we're working, high savings rate, but a high tax bracket. But then we, you know, stop working early in life. And then we have this like low income period that takes us to standard retirement age. So I thought all these, all the advice you currently hear or at that time, that you heard about which accounts you should invest in and things like that, it really didn't apply to people pursuing financial independence and early retirement. So I started doing a lot of research into that.

That's sort of when I sort of found my niche in personal finance writing because I found a lot of different strategies and came up with lots of different ways to get there quicker by lowering your taxes and thus increasing your savings rate. In the answer that you just gave, you talked about financial independence and early retirement as though they're both the same camp. But what we see is that there's sort of two different approaches, at least two. I mean, there's like hundreds of different approaches. But if we were to broadly generalize into two, you've got people who intend to retire early and stop earning or at least significantly reduce their income.

And then you've got the people like myself who, like, I want to continue earning until the day I die. I mean, I never want to stop working. You know, so to me and to many other people, financial independence was the goal, but that doesn't necessarily have any correlation with your income after you reach the point of FI. What did you find with regard to tax strategies planning for FI people specifically? Sure. So I'm the same as you. Like it was never about early retirement for me and that's why I'm the mad fiantist. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because it wasn't, it was never about early retirement. Like I just wanted the freedom to work on the projects that I was in. interested in and excited about and whether or not they earn money or not, it didn't matter.

So I was the same as you. I was always striving towards financial independence. But still, considering the fact that, yeah, I probably assumed that I was still going to earn after quitting my normal job, I still focused on that strategy of lowering my taxes as much as possible during my working years because I wanted to speed that journey up. So even though now I am still earning money through various side. projects that I created over the last decade, and I didn't sort of factor that into my plans. I'm still happy I went with the route that I did, even though now I'm probably going to have to

pay tax on some of that money, just because it got me to that freedom point sooner, and it allowed me to start living the life that I wanted to live sooner and gave me the confidence to do that. I guess the people that are focused on early retirement versus FI, it would be a little bit different, but I think for me, I like to take advantage of all the tax advantages I have. now because I can't get them back later. So like if I don't contribute to my 2017 401k, like I can't change my mind in 2020 and say, oh, I really want that tax break. Yeah. So I'm sort of in the mindset like, all right, just take advantage of everything I can now, optimize as much as possible with the current rules. And then in the future, I'll try to optimize

my future taxes then. So. Right. But yeah, I think the distinction between Phi and ER is, is one people have to think about. But yeah, it's always been about FI for me. And yeah, it sounds like you too. Yeah, absolutely. How do you balance the desire for tax optimization with the need to ensure that the tax tail isn't wagging the dog, that you're still making the most prudent investment choices and then tax optimizing for them? Sure. Yeah, no. So I keep my investment simple and as optimized as possible. And then I know I think you've talked about before, like the different buckets and which ones you put the where you put that money and where you put those investments. So it's not like I'm focusing taxes first. It's like, yeah, I'm just trying to pump as much money into my investments.

And that strategy is completely separate from my like tax optimization strategy. So, so yeah. And I don't do anything silly that would impact my investment returns just to save some taxes. Right. Because tax, you know. You're not leasing a brand new vehicle for the right off. Right. Exactly.

Absolutely. So, yeah, it's investments first. Taxes are like that bonus optimizations that you can do to like just put some icing on the cake. Right. Perfect. Now, you live in Scotland. How do you, does that change your investing approach? I mean, you're an American living in Scotland. Right. So do you invest in mostly U.S. broad market index funds? Yeah. So all of my money is still in the States because the fees are lower there. The investment options are better there. I earned my money there. So it was just a matter of not bringing it, bringing it over to Scotland with me. I have like a UK pension that I started when I was an employee in Scotland right after I graduated from college. But, but yeah, so all of my investments are in the States. And I think right now I'm probably 15% to like total international stock market index fund. And then the rest is total total stock market index fund, which is obviously a U.S. bias pretty much.

So you have no bond allocation? No bond allocation. Cool. Yeah. Camera guy wills. I'm happy with that choice too. Yeah, no, since I have some. additional income coming in from some of the websites that I've built over the years and some of the

web apps that I've written. I just treat that as like that could cover spending if the market tanks, so then I won't have to sell at a depressed value. So bonds help bond serve that role in most people's portfolio. But since I have this supplemental income coming in, that serves as my bond. So I'm happy to be more aggressive since I'm still young and over time, no matter what happens, hopefully it'll correct and. Yeah. and fix any downward drawdown. Do you maintain a decent cash allocation as well? I actually have too much cash right now.

So, yeah, since I left my job in August of last year, I thought I'd have some more cash on hand just in case so I could handle spending and things like. I didn't know what non-working life was going to look like. So I had some additional cash and I still haven't deployed that cash. And so, yeah, that's a problem. So like I said, my stock split was like 15% international, and then the rest was total stock market index fund. But I'm sitting on probably 20% cash, which is not good.

You could always buy a rental property in cash. That's true. Yeah, and we've talked about that. So we may be researching one of those together, and I'm going to be going through your course over the next two months so that I can learn how to do that because I have no real estate experience. Nice. Nice.

Yeah. I'm happy to help you. with that. Yeah, it's fun. How did you know that you were FI? What was your deciding point? Sure. So, like, I'm a big proponent of the 4% rule. I read a post called the Safe Withdrawal rate, and that talks about, like, how the 4% rule is actually very safe. And so that's been a nice benchmark guiding me throughout the whole journey. So for people who may not know what the 4% rule is it's your portfolio, a portfolio that, like, has a standard mix of stocks and bonds can generate 4% of withdrawals per year and still have a high likelihood of not running out

over a 30 year period. So since my potential like retirement would be longer than 30 years, you can bring that down to like 3.5% just to be super safe. But but yeah, somewhere between 3.5 and 4% has always been like a benchmark. Since I said before, like I never wanted to retire. Like during my journey, I had like little intermediary benchmark. So like at first I was like, well, once I cover my central expenses, like, you know, food, housing and cars, I guess, to get to work. And then I was like, well, that'll be fine. Like, I could quit then. And then, you know, I just wouldn't have any discretionary spending.

So that wouldn't be like the most amazing life. But I could quit, which is just like a big mental shift. Yeah. But then, obviously, I don't have much discretionary spending. So it wasn't much longer to get to that point. So yeah, so the 4% rule was just been a nice guiding factor. So that across that in 2014. And then a few months later, my wife was like, well, let's go back to Scotland now.

And I was like, okay, well, that's good. This is perfect timing. I'll just quit. And then we'll go back to Scotland. And then when I quit, like, my boss was like, could you work remotely? And I was like, oh, that would be fun. Yeah. And like, our house hasn't sold yet.

So I was like, well, that'll take some pressure off. And like this will, like, be a nice ease into joblessness rather than like just like 100% to 0%. So I said, yeah. And then I think being able to quit made me not hate my job anymore. And then not having a commute, not being stuck in meetings all day, not being trapped in the office from 9 to 5, all of those things that I hated about my job disappeared. And then I was left with the thing that I liked, which was coding because I was a software developer. And so yeah, so I ended up doing that for like over two years, which was fantastic. It was, it definitely made the transition a lot easier.

It also allowed me to test the upper limit of my spending. I had definitely got into the deprivation zone during my pursuit of five because I took it way too extreme and wound up not being very happy. So then I brought spending back up to like a more sustainable level. But then when I had that whole year's worth of salary, I was like, well, let's test and see if we could go up more and if that would make us happier. So that year we went crazy. We were traveling a lot more. we were eating out a lot more. We had a really nice place in the center of Edinburgh,

and we did all these things that I probably wouldn't have done earlier in my journey. And like two surprising conclusions that came from that year was like, one, that stuff didn't really actually move the needle that much. Like, since all the other spending that we had was so efficient and dialed in and we weren't wasteful in many areas of our life, like going out to Eden a couple extra times a month was like nothing. And then the traveling, like travel hacking is a big thing that I like to do anyway. So it's that didn't cost that much more.

And so yeah, one, it didn't cost that much more. And then two, it was like, we actually didn't enjoy it that much more. So like eating out more like two or three times a week was like that's too much. Like it wasn't special anymore. It didn't, you know, we didn't feel healthy because like we cook healthier at home, I think. And yeah, it just wasn't as nice. So then we're like, oh, well, let's just dial it back down to one time a week or just whenever we feel like it, really. And then the same with traveling.

It was like, it just felt like we were on the road constantly. So we didn't want to go see as many sites when we were there. And we didn't have that like period before where you're like getting all excited about the trip and you're planning for it. It was just like constantly just traveling and it was just like normal life. So yeah, that was really lucky that I did that because it made me a lot more comfortable with money. And it made me happier that the spending level that we're at is like the ideal level. That's interesting. So both the cost and the benefit were to be.

Oh, yeah, exactly. It was not something I expected, but yeah, it was great just because I don't think I would have given myself that the opportunity. And then I could have gone through my whole life, like feeling like, one, I was either depriving myself or two, like worried that spending was like off in some way. But now it's like, I feel like, yeah, it's perfect. And we can't send, like I said before, like extra income's coming in that I'm not expecting. So I even said to my wife, Gio, I was like, all right, think about anything that we could spend more money on or buy that would make our lives better or make us happier. And the only thing we could come up with, and we racked our brains. We're like, we don't need a better car.

Like, our car takes us places and that's all it's for. Our house is perfect. We're renting a flat in Edinburgh and it's beautiful. I love it. And we do everything we want to do. So I was like, what can we do? And the only thing we could think of was a couple new pillows and a mattress popper. So I ordered them that day on Amazon and it was like a hundred bucks. And then now we have everything we want and it's like that's an amazing place to be in and that that's something I don't think I would have expected like I was excited about the freedom of financial independence but it was it's the contentment and the whole process of reaching financial independence has helped me figure out the optimal amount of spending and that's something I didn't expect. Wow. About how much do you

spend anywhere between like 32 and 40 grand a year between the two of us so When we were living in Vermont, we were down in the low 30s. And then when I had that year of, let's go crazy, it was like only up to like 35. This year we have two-bedroom place in Edinburgh because we're having a lot of visitors this year. So this year it's going to be over 40, but not much like 41 or 42 probably. But then we've already talked about it. We're going to downgrade back to a one-bedroom because it's just too big and it's a waste of a room. We could always have an air mattress of friends come to visit.

and there won't be as many people come to visit next year. So that'll bring us back down probably to, I don't know, 36 or 37,000 a year. Nice. Your wife is not a scientist. That's true. She's slowly becoming one, yeah. Actually, yeah, she was definitely like the whole opposite end of the spectrum when we first were dating. Like, we've been together 15 years and we didn't get married until 10 years up.

We dated 10 years before getting married. And, yeah, she definitely wasn't a scientist at all. she was the opposite end of the spectrum. Not so much like a really big spender, but she just didn't care about money. Like it just, money didn't matter. It was like she never like just spent crazily,

but she never like looked after money or worried about it. As long as she had enough in her bank to cover her spending, she was fine. But yeah, over the years and just seeing like meeting a lot of people like you guys and other friends that I've met through the blog and then hearing other interviews with other people, she's come completely around to the idea.

And she's actually probably more, frugal than I am now. Like she, like, I've relaxed after hitting my goal and, you know, experiencing that year of spending more. But now, now she's like all into it and she's like so much happier as well, which is, which is great. So yeah, she's, she's fully on board and she sees the benefits of thinking about this stuff and adopting this lifestyle of like conscious spending and saving everything else towards like this freedom. Nice. So tell me about after you became, First of all, when were you officially FI? Sure.

Yeah, so that was like sometime in 2014, but then, like I said, I worked for another couple of years after that. But, yeah, no, so 2014 was weird because, you know, I've been working so much towards this goal. And then, like I said, I started depriving myself during that time, like the years prior to that 2014. And, you know, we were isolated in Vermont and I didn't want to do, spend money on anything because I was like so focused on the school.

So by the time I hit my number, It was like so anticlimactic. And because I think up until then I was like delaying my happiness. Like, oh, I'll be happy when I hit FI. Yeah. But then at the end of the day, it was just like another number on a screen. Like it was, yeah, a dollar more than I thought I needed. But it was like, who cares?

Like I had neglected my happiness so much in the years prior. Yeah. That when I got to that point, it was just like, well, this is it. You know? Yeah. So that's why we decided to move back to Scotland. We're like, this isn't healthy. we're doing like we're isolated we're not really having a good time so let's just go back to scotland

be closer to friends and family and yeah try to get out of the funk that we had worked ourselves into so yeah actually hitting the number was very anticlimactic in 2014 but then by the time i quit in 2016 we were both in a much better place and we had spent those years like focusing on happiness and doing things with friends and family and so that was a much better transition was when i actually left my job. So 2014, hit FI, 2016, August was August 1st, I think was my last day. And yeah, and then it's just been. But so going back a little bit, you found early retirement extreme in 2011. And that's when you became super gung-ho about FI. So we're talking only three years between when you discovered the early retirement movement versus when you actually hit FI.

How did you do that in three years? Well, yeah. So like I said, that was always good with money. So I was always saving money. So I had a, you know, very high net worth probably for my age group, even before finding it. So I had a nice head start. So I didn't have, well, I had student loan debt, but it was like a few thousand dollars at like two percent or less, I think it was actually less than two percent. And that was the longest thing on my credit history. So for all my travel hiking stuff, I was like paying off the minimum of that. But yeah, but yeah, besides that, like we didn't have any like car loans or we had a mortgage that was very reasonable. I think we paid $581 a month. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow.

So, like, and I had always been a software developer, so my salary had always been good. And so, yeah, so I had a much bigger head start than most to find this path. I know a lot of my readers, they may be in debt, they may be spenders that they're trying to, like, reverse these behavioral attributes about themselves and, like, go from spender to a saver. But, yeah, luckily, I didn't have to do that. So you'd accidentally been planning for it before you knew it. Right. Yeah. I know, yeah, I was, I was planning for being rich, which again, like I said, at the first,

beginning, I was like, looking back on it, it's like, what would I have done with rich? Like, I wouldn't have, I would have just had a bunch of money, but I would have kept working and then had more money, and because I wouldn't have bought like a fancy boat or something. Can't picture you with one. No, exactly. So yeah, so it was, it was a pretty quick transition. And like, 2014 was like pretty bare bones. So like that was like just rate at 4%. So I'm glad that I didn't actually step away then because I think I would have freaked out a little bit. But having those extra years of income made it like a much easier transition and definitely less stressful for me. Because like for someone who has spent my whole life like saving and getting so much pleasure out of putting money into these accounts.

Yeah. It was, it would have been a very hard transition to be then like, okay, no more saving, start drawing out of these accounts. Yeah. And I don't think psychologically I could have done it. And I think that's what my wife was most worried about. She's like, how are you going to go from being this amazing savior your whole adult life to then drawing out of those accounts? I was like, I don't know. But that's the whole plan.

So hopefully it works out. And yeah, yeah, so it would have been tougher. But luckily, yeah, just the way it all worked out. Yeah, actually, that brings up a really good point because this is something I write about from time to time. Many people refer to savings as delayed gratification. But for you and I, I think both get a lot of gratification. out of putting money into an index fund. Like, that's not delayed gratification.

I love that feeling. Like, you know, going online and clicking. It's just a few, like, clicks of the mouse. Like, you know, but I love the feeling of putting money into an investment account. That, to me, is extremely gratifying. So, yeah, how do you cope with? I mean, I suppose you haven't really had to deal with this issue because the irony of FI is that most people who reach it just end up accidentally making a bunch of money

Exactly. It's absolutely crazy. Yeah. The really ironic part is like, so one of my web apps that I built way back in, I don't know, maybe 2010, maybe before I even found out about financial independence, like I built this web app. And yeah, it only now started earning money after leaving my job. And it's like, oh, man, I wish if that had been earning money before, I could have hit five sooner. But yeah, you have so much more energy to pursue these other interests. And you make great things, and especially when you're not making. them for the money, they sometimes just start earning money anyway because most people out there are making stuff to earn money. So if you make something that's great, just because you love it and you want it for yourself, which is the case with the web app that I'm talking about, then yeah, sometimes it just earned money at the end of the day anyway, which is a great thing. And yeah, I think that happens a lot more in the Phi community. Yeah. And people will realize, like, everybody plans for never earning another dollar in their lives. And then they end up earning sometimes more than they made at their career.

Yeah. So you have not had to go through the experience of depriving yourself of the gratification of investing. No, no. Luckily not. And yeah, I'm the same as you, like derive so much pleasure from putting more money into my investments.

And yeah. And that's the thing I try to tell people. It's like saving has like a bad rap. Like you're, yeah, you're delaying gratification. But if you just picture like yourself buying your freedom or buying more choices in your life or buying more power and or like even like building like some

money machine or something, then I think that helps. And that's why I don't say the word retirement because people just think retirement's like 65 and they don't want to put off fun in their 20s for their 65-year-old self, even though they should because hopefully everybody will reach 65 plus. So, but yeah, so no, I've not had to deprive myself of that yet. So thankfully, because, yeah, that'll be a weird transition. And I was looking forward to writing about it because that's such a big part of this whole journey, but I haven't written about it because I'm not experiencing ad. We'll come back to the show in just a second, but first, here's what I want to say.

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slash p-a-u-l-a. What else has changed for you since reaching F-I? Walk me through a day in your life, actually. I'd love to hear about that. Yeah. So I'll walk you through the day first, and then I'll tell you what change. Okay. Normal day. So my wife, as you said, wasn't a scientist, but the reason she wasn't a scientist is because she loves her job. So she's an optometrist. And she just has such a passion for eyes and helping people in optometry. And so she still works. Now she works less. She just works like the days that she likes.

So she works a couple days in the hospital and things like that. So assuming she's working, she'll get up. She's really nice. She makes me a cup of tea in the morning. And she said that's just so that I stay on her schedule. So since I don't have to wake up for anything, she makes me a cup of tea. And then so she wakes me up and I'm like, ah. And she's like, here's tea.

I'm like, oh, okay. I'll interrupt really quickly. You're an American. Did you drink tea before you moved to Scotland, or is this a new thing? I did drink tea, but not at the scale. I drink it there, especially her family. It's just like, if I go to my in-laws house, it's just like cup of tea. Yeah, sure.

And then, like, you finish it. And somebody else is like, cup of tea? It's like, yeah, okay, I'll have another fun. And then it's like just a day worth of tea drinking. And I love it. So, yeah, no, I drank tea a bit before, but not to the level I drink now. But yeah, so she'll bring me a cup of tea. and then I'll do some stuff on the computer.

And then I started going to the gym after I quit my job. It was always something like, oh, I'll get healthy when I have no job. Like, yeah, when I quit my job, I'll get really in shape. And then I quit my job and I was like, I got to put up or shut up. I have no excuse now. Like I have all day. And I purposely bought myself a gym membership, the cheap one. You have to go into the gym before 11 on that cheap one, which is like awesome for me.

Oh, otherwise. up the price? No, you just can't get in. Oh, gotcha. So I pay for the cheap monthly thing that's before 11 a.m. Which is awesome because, you know, it's something that you're sitting there and you're like, oh, I should write an email. And it's like, oh, there's a YouTube video I should watch.

And then before you know, it's like 4 o'clock. Whereas now I can't do that because it's like, oh, I got to get to the gym by 11. So that just kickstarts my whole day. So then I'll go to the gym and I'll spend like probably an hour or two there, which is really nice. And that I'll interject some of your other, an answer to your other point. question, like, just relaxing with time is something I've never done. Like, I'm always, like, the most efficient way to do this or walk this way because it's the most efficient path. And,

oh, the lights changing, so I better run and get across the road. And, like, now it's just like, I'll just stroll. And then it's like, oh, the light's changing, I better run. And it's like, no, I'll just stroll and then press the button and wait. And it's like this whole shift of time in my mind, I think, is, yeah, so like, I'll be at the gym. And it's like, Oh, you know, I've been here an hour and a half already. And it's like, well, it doesn't matter. I'll just, you know, just take it slow and just let my body recover and do more. And so, yeah, that's, that takes up about my morning and then I'll come back and shower.

In the afternoon, I'll either go maybe to a coffee shop or something to write because I can't, for some reason, I can't write in my house. I think it's more I just need, I need the coffee shop to entice me out to get me away from the internet. And then I can write. So I'll go out and write. And then I do, there's a lot of, like, music. stuff that I like to do. So that's like a hobby that's sort of taken over my life more, which is what I wanted. Do you play music? Do you play instruments? Yeah, yeah, lots of instruments. And like my ultimate dream is to have an album that I wrote. It doesn't have, I don't care if

zero people buy it as long as I'm happy with it and proud of it. Like that's like, I'll buy it. No, I may not tell you about it. So yeah, so that's been like taken from like this thing that I've always put off and like, I'll do that later. And that's another thing. It's like, all right, I have to actually do this now because I have no excuses not to. And then Jill will get home from work and then we'll usually cook like a good meal. I thought I would be cooking more, but I'm not cooking as much as I had hoped. But that's something I want to change and that's something Jill definitely wants me to change to because I was like, I was like, yeah, I won't have a job.

So I'll just cook more. And I do cook more, but I wanted to like learn how to cook like properly, like really good stuff and like try new recipes. So I currently I'm doing like one new recipe a week that like sort of pushes me. And then I cook a lot more of just like our like the normal staples that we always eat. And then yeah, and then we'll maybe watch like an hour of something on Netflix. We don't have cable or anything like that. But we'll like usually after dinner, we'll watch something on Netflix. Then we'll read before bed, which has been a really good habit as well.

Like no screens. I tried not to have screens like after 10. But now that I'm staying up a bit later, I've pushed that to 11. So then I can still get some stuff done in the evening. And then yeah, read from like 11 until midnight and then go to bed. Nice. Or fall asleep because I'm. I'm tired because I worked out and I got a lot done.

And then, yeah, and that's pretty typical, actually. Wow. And to go back to your other question of, like, what are some surprising things? Like, I'd always thought I'd be a permatravel. Yeah. After I was free, it's like, wow, I can just go anywhere anytime. But we did that last year. We took like a three-month trip around the world and I missed the routine that I had

developed. Like, when normal life is so much better and you are like in complete control of normal life, there's no reason to escape that as much. Yeah. So I miss the routine. I miss being productive. I realize I get a lot of happiness from creating stuff and like progressing in all these goals that I have like, you know, in the gym and with the music stuff and writing and

Matt Fianta stuff. And I realize I get so much enjoyment and happiness out of that. So now we're like cutting back and like we're just like really enjoying our like just normal life routine, which is which has been great. Yeah. Yeah. And you and I were talking about that last night about how much – because both of us love travel, but we also love routine and then the progress towards goals that you can make from having that routine.

And that's – yeah. So that's been surprising, too. But the most surprising thing is like – so I think I used to say to people like the whole reason I was pursuing five, it was never about early retirement. I was like just like a wimpy entrepreneur. Like I always wanted – I had all these ideas and all these projects I wanted to do. but I was just like too big of a wimp to give up my job and try them. Yeah.

So I was like, right, well, I'll reach financial independence and then I won't have to work. And then I can do all these entrepreneurial ideas. And then it doesn't matter if I make money off of them or not. But then, you know, once I hit five and then work two extra years and then have this other supplemental income coming in that I didn't expect, money doesn't matter to me anymore. It doesn't drive me. So all these entrepreneurial ideas that I had were all because like, oh, I think that could make money or this could earn more money and like that was always the main motivation for these

things. But then now that money is not a source of motivation anymore for the first time of my life, like it's a very weird position to be in because all of, because you've already lost other sources of motivation like impressing your colleagues or working up the corporate ladder or, you know, getting a good praise from your boss. And so those are gone. Those sources of motivation are gone. But then to lose money as a source of motivation, It was just insane to me. So that's something I've been trying to process for the last year. And it's like, all right, so money is not the motivation.

So what is? And that's why I'm like focusing more on like just this music stuff and like creating, creating things just for the joy of creating them and just the feeling of like having something put out in the world that wasn't there before. So that's sort of more what's driving me. Whereas if you would ask me three years ago, what you're going to be doing after you quit your job and what your main motivation going to be? It's going to be like, all right,

to be an entrepreneur. I'm going to build all these cool companies and products and whatever. And that's just like completely changed. What's interesting to me about hearing you say that is that I've met a lot of people who say, oh, you know, I don't care about money at all. I'm only interested in art or music or whatever their passion is. And so for the majority of their life, or at least their life up to this point, they're broke, like their paycheck to paycheck. And they say that they're happy with it, because they get to focus on their art. And it sounds like you're doing exactly the same thing, but from a position of strength.

Which is very, very, I feel very fortunate to be able to do that because I don't have those stresses that many people probably do with, you know, other things. So I can focus on it fully and not put pressure on myself to like, oh, I need to hurry up and get an album out so I can tour or whatever. And it's like, I'm just like enjoying the process. So whether one's better, not, like, you know, I'm 35 now. Like, it would probably, if I was going to be a musician,

I'm sure it would have been a lot more fun being a musician when I'm 20. But it doesn't matter. Like, at the end of the day, I just keep telling myself, like, yeah, I just want to do it for me and just have this thing that I can listen to maybe when I'm 70 and be like, hey, I made that. That's cool. I'm so glad I did it this way because as someone who focused on money all throughout my 20s and teens, and I don't think I could have lived that artist's life. But yeah, living it now at a position of strength is definitely a lot more enjoyable. Yeah, that was actually exactly going to be my follow-up question, is do you feel deprived in any way from not having done it at the age of 20?

No, I always had an excuse. This is a big procrastination thing I always dealt with. I could have done it at 20, but I was always more focused on money and concerned with that. And I was like, oh, it was always just like a dream. I don't know if it was even a dream that I always thought I would have, that I would actually accomplish. It was more like I just liked having that dream.

Like, yeah, eventually I'll write an album, which then made it very scary once I did quit my job. And it's like, oh, I really have to do this. And then, you know, my fragile ego was like coming up with new excuses to not do it. Whereas like my 20s, it was like, oh, you have to work or you can do a side project. And, you know, then that's why you're not doing it. But one day you will. You'll do it one day. But now it's like, I have no excuses.

So then my ego is like now coming up like, oh, you're too old. Oh, you started too late. you're not going to ever do it. But luckily, I've fought through that. And over the last few months, I've just focused on, like, just putting in the work every day. And that's been super productive for me,

because I can see over the last few months just how much I've progressed. And it's like, if I stop focusing on all those things that I'm trying to talk myself out of, like all the reasons why it won't work, then if I just keep doing the work and enjoying the work, then that's a win in itself. Like, I'm doing something where I'm progressing every day and being creative.

and that is a win anyway. So, yeah, it's been a hard year because when, like I said, when you have no more external sources of motivation, it all has to come from within. And yeah, and then you're doing these battles that you've battled with before,

but you have no excuses now. So it sounds like reaching FI has forced you to face your personal demons, and it's forced you to grapple with a lot of personal development. Absolutely. Yeah. I couldn't agree more.

Yeah, and it's been very interesting. So we're here in Ecuador, going to be talking at a Chautauqua, and I'm sure a lot of the attendees are probably going to assume that I'm talking about, I don't know, taxes or something that I've written about a lot. But it's really about working through that and trying to figure out what you're doing next and how important that is. And then also, like, how you can then achieve the things that you want to try to achieve after you reach financial independence. So I think that's the most critical part because so many people are, they know their job sucks. and they hate their boss, and that's all they're thinking about. They're like, I just want to get away from him or her, and I don't want to have to go into that office every day.

But then it's like, you know, there's a lot of good stuff that comes from your job that you're not going to have anymore. And you have this whole world that's open up to you. You have 60 plus years that you're filling 365 days a year with something, and you need to sort of start thinking about that. So I think that's the most critical point that a lot of people miss because they're just so focused on running away from something that they don't like.

Escaping from something rather than escaping into something or leading into something. Have you ever had to battle just days in your post-Fi life, days where you just were tempted to fritter the whole day away, like laying in bed, browsing the internet, looking at cat videos or whatever it is? Yep. Yes, so I have. So at first I was really hard at myself. And I would beat myself up at the end of the day and feel really guilty. if you're really terrible.

What did I just waste of this day? But then since I realized that that didn't happen very often, I've now cut myself some slack. So yeah, someday, you know, I'll have my to do list of stuff I'd like to get done that day. And then something else will be more exciting. And it may not be as important, but maybe somewhat still productive.

Or it may not be productive at all. And I just, you know, get trapped in YouTube, like one video, it leads to the next. And it's just like, oh, Jill's home. And now I get a cook dinner. We're going to make dinner together or something. So, yeah, it does happen. But then I just say to myself, like, all right, I earned that.

Like, I earn this day to, like, I can do this every day if I wanted to because I worked hard to get to this point. So I gave myself some slack. But yeah, no, it definitely still happens. Have you ever, so a little bit of a strange question, you know how sometimes you meet older retirees who just don't have anything going on? And both in terms of hobbies as well as in terms of mentally they don't really have a whole lot. a happening, like, so conversations with them tend to be insipid, and then they tend to

complain a lot because they fixate on every little, like, because they just don't have anything else going on. How do you, this has always been my fear of like, how do you mentally discipline yourself enough to not be like that worst example, you know? Yeah. Well, I think removing negative things from your life voluntarily is good. So like I said, we don't have cable. So I don't get angry with the advertisements that I usually did back in the day when we watch TV.

The news, I'm not all fired up with politics. And I'm not scared because I didn't see graphic images of the latest disaster that happened. And I'm so focused on these things that I want to get better at that I feel like there's no time to just sit around complaining because I am, luckily, have these things. And that's why I think it's so important to have them because otherwise when you leave your job, there's going to be a huge void in so many aspects of your life. And if you don't have something to try to fill that, you're going to be, you know, have no direction. You're probably not going to be even, you're probably going to be less happy. And then you could get down into that spiral of then just being the homogene old person that just complains about everything. So that's why I think it's just super important to have these things that you're working towards and making progress on and getting.

better at and engaging your mind and also like you know getting better healthier and engaging your body and just yeah working just keep progressing towards things it's just stuff that you pick rather than your boss so hmm the theme that I'm hearing is that happiness comes from making progress to me personally yeah like there may be somebody out there who is like just working to retire at 35 and they just want to play golf all day and that's fine and they don't want to even like that's the other thing like i'll probably be talking about talking about in my speech. And it's that we're in this position where you could really succeed. Like if you love golf, you could potentially be in the PGA tour because you could go out

and practice all day when everybody else is working. You could pay, use some of your money to pay for a pro to teach you how to do it. And so it's like such an amazing opportunity for people who hit this point early in life because they could really take their hobby or dream and they could actually really progress with it. But maybe there's someone out there that doesn't want to. and they just like going out and chipping the ball around. And that's fine too, but that's not me. And it's not a lot of the people that read my side and your side, I'm sure. Because if you're able to accomplish this goal at such a young age, you're a hard worker.

Yeah. You like achievement. Yeah. You're ambitious. Yeah. So to then just like snap and be like, okay, now I'm just relaxing and leisure is my thing. It's, I don't think it's going to work very well. Yeah, exactly.

What do you say when people ask you what you do for a living? So yeah, so I'm very uncomfortable with the whole idea. Like my family didn't know about the mad fiendist until I was like in like Forbes and somebody saw it there. Like I don't like talking about money to people I know. Like honestly. So I don't talk about it to my friends and the only friends that know are people that have seen me in like mainstream media. So if people ask me what I do, I just say I'm a software developer, which is the truth because I still work on the projects that I built over the years and I still improve them. And it's just much easier that way because, yeah, I am not.

comfortable. One, talking about money, it's such a weird thing to not have to work in your 30s because you saved up enough. It's just like, it's weird enough talking about it within the financial community, but like just normal people where you live in paycheck to paycheck, it's just, it brings up lots of weird, I don't know, I don't know if it brings up weird vibes or if I just like project my uncomfortableness on them and then that makes it feel like it's weird. But yeah, I stay away from it completely, which I feel really bad about because I was at an event and somebody there was like, yeah, I tell all my friends. And I was like, wow, that's crazy.

How do you, why do you do that? He's like, because if I found out that my friend knew about all this stuff and then 10 years later he's retired and he just told me then, I'd be so mad because this is amazing lifestyle and an amazing thing to pursue. So the fact that I love it so much means I want to tell all my friends about it. And I was like, that's really respectable. And yeah, if I was, I would agree with him. Like, if my friend told me now that he was retired and I was still living paycheck to paycheck,

I would be pretty mad. And that you didn't share that earlier. So, but I just can't do it. I can't handle the awkwardness. So, yeah, so I just say I'm a software developer. Yeah. Which is true. Which is true, yeah.

And you still, and that tells me, that actually tells me something about your relationship with your job because, like, you code for fun, you know? Yep. No, no, yeah. That's the thing. I love my job as far as the work was concerned. I'm just a little bit of a control freak. And I don't think I'm very good with authority. Yeah. You like the autonomy. Exactly. So that's what it was always about for me. You want to be able to code for fun, not code because you have to. Exactly. Imagine that I gave you. So a couple of, we're wrapping up soon. A couple of final questions. Imagine that I gave you $1 million right now with the caveat that you have to spend it within a week. What would you do? Okay. And I have to spend it on myself? No, not necessarily.

Oh, okay. You just have to spend it in any way whatsoever. Okay. You can't invest it. Well, no, actually, I take that back. You could. I could invest it. Yeah.

Yeah. I would probably invest it. I would probably take, no, I would probably take some of it. Like, one of my, like, longer-term dreams is to, like, own, like, a small cabin on a mountain so that I could ski and play ice hockey on ponds. and just like enjoy outdoor winter life. Mm-hmm. And even though I could do that now, I've realized how much value there is into working towards something.

Yeah. So it's like just because we could buy that now, like I'd rather plan it out. I would rather go see a bunch of different mountains. So a week would be tough because that would be like, okay, I have to spend it now. Yeah, that's tough because like giving away money too is like very tough for me. Like I would love to help family and friends,

but then that comes with. Yeah, strings and weird. Well, just weirdness, yeah. And then charities, like, I just feel like I'm so efficient with money. Yeah. And, like, I don't trust anyone else to be as efficient. So I'd rather give my time away rather than, like, like sweat equity and working. So, yeah, that would be a, I would probably invest most of it, to be honest.

And then try to figure out a better use for it later. If you couldn't invest it. If I couldn't invest it. So I would buy a small, you know, 1,000 square foot, max cabin on a ski hill somewhere that are maybe a little bit bigger so then I could let my family and friends enjoy it more and things like that. So yeah, if I had to spend it on myself, that's what I would buy because I think that would be a really nice lifestyle. Just, yeah, enjoying skiing and winter activities. And I love snow, so.

Cool. Yeah, that was my final question. Is there anything that I haven't asked? Oh, geez. No. This has been great. I can't believe you're at 100. episodes already, so congratulations. Thank you. It's so cool that we're doing this in Keto, Ecuador. Yeah. I'd like to thank Will for all his amazing setups. You're not just a plus one in my book.

Glorified plus one. So yeah, this has been great. Thank you so much and congratulations. Thanks, Brandon. Thank you. Thanks for having me. What an awesome interview for episode 100. Thank you so much, Brandon.

So the reason that I was excited to bring him back on the show is because Brandon was the very first person that I interviewed when I began this podcast, and so it just felt right to bring him back for episode 100. He is also, as I hope you can tell by his interview, he's also one of the smartest people, in my opinion, in this space. So I very much respect everything that he has to say and really excited that he could be the guest on episode 100. We recorded this as a video interview. So for those of you who are listening to this in audio format, head to YouTube.com slash afford anything where you can watch the video of this interview and see him and his face and his expressions and his hand gestures as he's describing

some of these concepts. I personally think that the video version of this is very enriching. So YouTube.com slash afford anything to watch the video version of this interview. What are some of the chief takeaways that we got from this? Well, for me, there was one that stood out. And so that's the one that I want to emphasize, which is just because you have enough money to take care of yourself, i.e. when you become debt-free or when you reach financial independence, whatever goal you've set, once you reach that goal, that doesn't automatically make your life perfect. It isn't about escaping from something. It's also about escaping into something. So what's your why? What motivates you? What is it that you're striving for? Striving for debt freedom or striving for financial independence,

that's great. But fundamentally, those both define themselves as leaving something, not having debt, not having a job. Once you leave that thing, what are you moving into? Think about that because that is what this is all about. That why is why we're here. It's why we're doing what we do. It's why we blog and podcast and manage our money and think about this so much. So that's the key question that came out of the interview and that's what I really want to emphasize. What is your why? Thanks again for tuning in. This is episode 100. And by the way, in order to celebrate the 100th episode, we've made a very special dance video, and that is available also on YouTube. So head to YouTube. It's short. It's funny. It was a lot of fun to film. So on YouTube, check out the dance video

celebrating episode 100. My name is Paula Pan. I'm the host of the Afford Anything podcast. Thank you so much for tuning in. I'll catch you next week. Wait, all right, final, final, final question? This one's for the after show. The first time that I interviewed you, I asked you, Who would you rather be locked with in a room for an hour? Warren Buffett or Britney Spears? Do you remember your answer? I do remember this. I think I asked, was my wife there?

You asked, am I married? Am I married? Yeah, that's right. So, yeah. No, it would definitely be Warren Buffett. I wouldn't, yeah, an hour would be too much with Britney. For many reasons. I wouldn't need an hour.

But yeah. Yeah, Warren Buffett. Which I'm not sure if that was my answer then. No, I think back then it was Brittany. I'm older now. Older and wiser. What would you ask Warren? Oh, man.

That's a good question. I think I would talk to him about his relationship with money and how he's been able to really, it's obviously not a motivating factor because he has so much that he'll never run out in any possible way and just how he came to that conclusion because I think, because yeah, even up until a year ago, I would have thought that money would still motivate me, even though I had enough to realize that that was definitely enough.

Like, that was my core happiness. I would have still, and I still find it hard. Like, I still find it difficult to remove money completely from an equation. And, like, you know, I'm always looking at my stats. And I'm like, oh, this month's less than last month. And it's like, it's all bonus money. But it's still, like, it still hasn't left completely. And it's like, I would talk to them about that and be like, how, how have you relate?

reach this zen-like state with your relationship to money because I think that's very important because he seems happy and he does what he loves and he has more money than anyone. So he doesn't let it pollute anything in his life or from an onlooker's perspective. But yeah, I think I would talk to him about that because the investment stuff like I'm never going to do what he does. I don't want to read annual reports and there's so much other stuff I want to do. So it's not like I would ask him investing questions because I'm quite happy investing in index funds and just doing it for the long haul, so be more of that relationship with money.