Afford Anything - PSA Thursday: The Impact of Evictions, with Princeton University Eviction Lab expert Alieza Durana

Episode Date: July 17, 2020

Welcome back to PSA Thursday, a mostly-weekly segment in which we talk about how to handle money, work, and life in the middle of a pandemic. This week, our focus is on answering a question that many landlords in our community have asked in recent months: what do we do when our tenants can't pay the rent, and our bills are due?  To answer this, we asked Alieza Durana, a journalist who works with the Eviction Lab at Princeton University, for her expertise.  The Princeton Eviction Lab is a group that rigorously researches the causes and consequences of the affordable housing crisis, housing instability, and the impact of evictions. Alieza shares data gathered from The Eviction Lab and offers tips for landlords who want to be part of the solution, but struggle with the reality of having their own bills to pay.   For more information, visit the show notes at https://affordanything.com/psathursday Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to PSA Thursday, a special weekly bonus segment of the Afford Anything podcast in which we talk about how to handle money, work, and life in the midst of a pandemic. These PSA Thursday episodes are stripped down bare bones versions of our normal podcast. So there's no intro music, no outro music. We keep it ad-free. Our interviews, as you're about to hear today, don't have key takeaways afterwards. So we just cut to the chase and deep dive into one particular topic and talk about how to manage that topic. In the context of 2020, so in previous episodes, we've covered the CARES Act and how it impacts student loans and your student loan repayment strategy in the year 2020. We've talked about how to set up a donor advised fund if you want to donate to nonprofits.

Our guest today is Alisa Durana. She is a journalist who works with the Eviction Lab at Princeton University. The Princeton Eviction Lab is a group that does rigorous research about the causes and the consequences of the affordable. housing crisis, housing instability, and the impact of evictions. So the Eviction Lab at Princeton is building, mapping, and visualizing the first nationwide eviction database. In our upcoming conversation, Alisa will share some of the data that Princeton has gathered about the topic of evictions, and she will share tips for landlords who want to be part of the solution, not contribute to the problem of economic and social inequality. She'll share advice for landlords who

want to conduct themselves ethically and yet also have the reality of bills to pay. So if you're a landlord or if you're an aspiring landlord, I think you'll enjoy this interview. Here is Alisa Duranah from the Eviction Lab at Princeton University. Hi, Alisa. Hi, thank you for having me on. Thank you so much for spending this time with us. Alisa, to kick off, can you tell us a little bit about your work? Absolutely. So I am actually a journalist and media strategist at the Eviction Lab. We are a research institute based at Princeton University, and we study the causes, prevalence, and effects of housing and security, eviction, and homelessness around the United States. I have a master's in public policy and have reported on a number of issues, including housing, but also

related to economic and equality, gender equality, and discrimination, and a number of other topics. And I'm so happy to be on the show today. It's such a multifaceted, um, and very complex topic. In your work as a journalist and then at Princeton, have you seen conversations around this shift over the years? Absolutely. When I first started reporting, it was honestly quite difficult to pitch stories

related to racial, economic, and gender inequality. And while, you know, it's still tough to get those stories published, we have made progress in terms of our understanding of many of these inequities that have been built into our society and policies for the last couple of centuries. And, you know, as you probably know, from the protest around the country, you know, we're in this critical moment of discussion around how we can, you know, dismantle those inequities. And so what I'm hopeful, I am grateful for the opportunity to really revisit the rights that we have in America and how we can, create a more just society that supports human well-being and flourishing. Before we get into some of the solutions, let's take a moment to review the problem or the extent of the problem. What are some of the common reasons for eviction? And are there

stats on how many people it affects? Absolutely. So we at the Eviction Lab were founded out of my colleague Matt Desmond's early research in the 2000s. He had been studying eviction in Milwaukee as he did his dissertation and found that experiences of eviction were much, much more common than had previously been realized. So he set out to found the eviction lab to create a nationwide database to really understand the scope of the problem and make that data and information available for communities, policy development, and so on. So we house over 83 million eviction court filings records. And as late as 2016, we were seeing 3.7 million eviction filings annually, which comes to about seven eviction filings per minute. Eviction is a phenomenon that, you know,

disproportionately impacts black communities and communities of color. It also disproportionately impacts families with children and women and people experiencing domestic violence. Our data also only cover the court process related to an eviction. So, you know, we estimate that illegal and informal experiences of eviction happen at double the rate of legal filings. So, you know, it's a problem that affects our communities nationwide. It's not just a big city issue. And in fact, you know, we see higher than average.

eviction rates in places like the South and Midwest and Rust Belt, places that we think of as great migration states because it's very much tied to the legacy of racism and slavery in our society. If a person gets evicted, are they more likely to become evicted again? Absolutely. So an eviction is a devastating and traumatic event for not just an individual who might face in judgment, but also for families and communities. An eviction is tied to a host of devastating outcomes that include worsening mental and physical well-being, suicidal ideation, job loss. An eviction also ruins a person's credit. And tenants who face an eviction are often put on lists by landlords for people that should not be rented to.

so it becomes very difficult for an evicted family to secure housing after they have been evicted, which is why it is often a contributing factor to experiences of homeless across the United States. What are some of the most common reasons given for an eviction? Is it non-payment of rent or are there other common reasons as well? Sure. So non-payment of rent is often used as a justification to evict a family. Nuisance orders are also often used, particularly related to tenants who may be experiencing domestic violence. So a nuisance order is often used as a way of removing a family who is experiencing domestic violence, which is actually one of the leading causes of homelessness

among women and families with children. Thinking about what we're seeing amidst COVID-19, some of the eviction moratoria or stoppages are limiting evictions at this time. based on, you know, what justification a landlord is providing, but there is a great amount of variation across the United States in terms of what protections are afforded to tenants. Right. Are there certain states where evictions tend to be more common? Yes. So we actually see higher than average eviction rates in many states in the south, in places in the Midwest and rest belt. But, you know, eviction is a phenomenon that touches every part of the U.S.

You know, we see it in rural, suburban, and urban areas. We also see it in both red and blue states. So it is, you know, not just a San Francisco, New York, Seattle problem. It is a phenomenon that we see in many other parts of the United States. So when we initially launched the eviction lab and made our database available to the public, you know, some of our top 10 evicting cities in America were actually in places like Richmond, Virginia. Charleston, South Carolina, which surprised a lot of people. What other data have you gathered or what have you found out in the course of looking at this topic that has been surprising or perhaps not intuitive?

You know, we published some data prior to the arrival of COVID-19 in December 2019. Looking at the average amount of money, you know, for which a tenant is typically evicted, it's used. usually for less than one month's rent. We often get a lot of questions about, you know, how much money is attendant evicted for. Are they accruing, you know, massive amounts of debt? And the answer is no, you know, it's usually a very small amount of money. And in addition to that, you know, we also see higher eviction rates in places where it is easy for a landlord to evict someone. So there are localities in states in the U.S. where a landlord need only pay $30 to file an eviction order. And in places like that, we often see landlords using the eviction court process as a way of

putting pressure on tenants to receive rent. So let's turn this conversation to what we can do. Now, a lot of the people who are listening to this, myself included, are mom and pop landlords. You know, we're not big Fortune 500 companies, but we are working people who may own one or two or three or four rental properties. How can we operate in such a way that we are not contributing to social and economic injustice while still recognizing the reality that we ourselves have to pay the mortgage? I think that it's such a great question and it's inspiring to hear you talk about this and also be discussing this on your podcast, you know, with so many other mom and landlords in your audience, I think that this is an opportunity for landlords and tenants to both negotiate and also to work together to seek policy supports, both at the local state and

federal level as well. If a family were evicted today, you know, if they're lucky, they may end up, you know, doubling up with friends or family, but if they're less lucky, they may end up living out of their car in a homeless shelter or other places where socially distanced living is not possible. And I know we've already talked about the negative consequences of an eviction, but it's both a matter of public health and also personal well-being for the family in question. Policies such as rent relief could both address the financial well-being of tenants and helping them, you know, stay in their home and shelter in place while also, you know, provide that necessary rent that a lot of mom and pop landlords rely on to landlords and property

owners directly. So, you know, those are some of the types of policies that we're considering many of the emergency stimulus measures that were passed in April are about to expire. So we are bracing for a possible spike in evictions in homelessness. So really now is the time, you know, for us to come together and really ask of our government. We're in a historic moment that demands a generous and historic response, and it'd be great for landlords and tenants to work together to define those solutions. What are some of the most effective ways for landlords and tenants to work together to press for such policy changes that improve the lives of both?

Are there organizations? What would be step one in getting started in that? You know, step one would probably, I mean, there are a couple of things that could happen. I mean, one, I think it would be great, you know, if landlords could start an open line of communication about where and how well their tenants are doing. We've seen in our data actually that, you know, I like to say that the rent eats first. So families have been really smart and they have been prioritizing paying rent over paying for food and medical expenses during this time. And, you know, we've seen an increase in food pantry demand by 2,000 percent, an increase in rental assistance requests by 92%. So starting an open and kind line of communication with a tenant about their capability is important.

At the same time, I think working with tenant organizing groups, mutual aid groups, wherever you're based, being in touch with local social services and legal service organizations. is an important part of that conversation. We actually host a database on our website called Just Shelter. So if there are tenants that need social or legal services, we maintain a list by geography of resources available at the state and local level. But certainly, you know, now is the time to be calling local state and national representatives. As, you know, Congress is currently in the midst of a policy standoff as they decide whether to fund additional sort of stimulus measures and supports for tenants and landlords. What should a landlord do if the tenant is unable to pay their rent?

And I don't just mean right now during the pandemic, but in any normal time, what would you advise or recommend a landlord do in order to make the situation go a small? smoothly as possible. You know, that's a good question and tough to answer. So we knew prior to the pandemic, for instance, that 44% of American families would struggle to cover an emergency expense of $400. That is data from the Federal Reserve. And, you know, in a time when people are being hit by both a public health and economic crisis, you know, we're seeing people turn to loans and credit cards to make ends meet and to pay the rent first over. other costs. So beyond sort of opening a clear line of communication with your tenant and seeking

other policy supports, you know, I think that we as a society need to reevaluate the use of eviction right now. If a person was evicted right now, that wouldn't necessarily mean, for instance, that a landlord would receive the back rent owed, but it would mean that the family could potentially become homeless. So one recommendation that housing, law scholars are exploring right now is the idea, for instance, of separating family displacement from rent owed. So what I mean by that is that, you know, an eviction could, in theory, be processed through small claims court and that rental debt could be separated out from the forced displacement of a family from a home. You know, there are some community court models in different parts of the

U.S. where, you know, a landlord and a tenant could go to mediation instead of reaching for an eviction immediately. So those are the types of policies that we're exploring, given, you know, the immense human toll that an eviction takes. What should a landlord do if the tenant starts ghosting them? I've heard this comment from a few people in this community, in this audience, where they say, hey, we didn't get rent last month and the tenant's just ghosting me and is not responding to any of my texts or emails. I think that right now, being generous and kind in any communication moving forward is sort of an important part of that process. It may be that you're not receiving a response from a tenant because they are trying to cobble together rent or trying to procure food or other

basic necessities for their family and very fearfully awaiting whether they will face an eviction judgment. So I think that persistent and kind communication can sort of help address some of the tension between landlords and tenants and create, you know, an opening for a conversation around when and how rent could possibly be repaid. That being said, many people have lost their jobs through no fault of their own. You know, it might be that some of your listeners have also experienced that personally or have someone in their family

who's experienced a job or income loss. I know that my brother has and many of my friends have. And, you know, given that the economy has not rebounded, you know, the scope of the current economic crisis is probably best compared to the Great Depression. Those jobs have not yet come back. So it might also be that your tenant is looking for work really frantically because they would like to repay that rent, but it's hard to repay rent

if there aren't jobs available to help fund that rental payment, which is why, you know, the importance of, you know, landlords joining in in the call for stimulus measures is so important because it could potentially both alleviate the stress that tenants are under, but also that landlords are under. How should a landlord handle non-financial concerns that could lead to an eviction, such as an undisclosed dog or dogs on the property, or such as noise violations? What is the ethical approach to handling such things? Right now, it's of critical importance to help keep people housed. At the same time, we have repeatedly seen, you know, throughout our communities that when the police are called,

or involved or, you know, when the eviction process is involved in disputes between tenants and landlords, it can often result in devastating consequences for tenants or the communities in question, given the history of state violence, particularly against communities of color who are most disproportionately impacted by eviction. The reason that I say that is that often lease violations, nuisance orders are used by, landlords who are much less generous than yourself or that of your audience to evict tenants in our most marginalized communities. So one example of this is noise complaints are used as a way to often evict families experiencing domestic violence, which often results in family homelessness

for usually women and children in question, but not exclusively. So I have a As landlords seek to address some of these challenges with their tenants, a clear and kind of open communication line directly with a tenant is probably the best first recourse. Eviction or reaching for other more drastic measures should really be something that is reserved for emergencies or threats to personal or public health. If things are not working out with a tenant, is it better for a landlord to suggest that the landlord and tenant agree to terminate the lease? I mean, I would imagine that that would still create upheaval in the tenant's life insofar as they would need to move out. But would that be preferable to eviction?

What are your thoughts on that? Right now, eviction should be a policy of last resort. It should be something that is reserved truly for emergencies or more extreme cases and not used with, you know, the frequency with which we are seeing in our society to date without knowing what the reasons might be behind a landlord's desire to terminate a lease. Terminating a lease does not have the same consequences that an eviction does. You know, terminating a lease does not cause job loss, ruin credit. It does not result in a tenant being barred from other types of housing in the future. So in the grand scheme of things, you know, terminating a lease certainly has less devastating consequences than an eviction.

You know, that being said, we're currently in a market in which people need a place to safely and securely shelter in place. So I would encourage your listeners to think about why. now they would want to terminate a lease before reaching for that or for an eviction as a way of addressing any conflicts that they might have with a tenant. To what extent should landlords be thinking about the amount of money that they themselves should save the cash buffer, the cushion that they should have so that they have the capacity to be able to accommodate tenants if a tenant suffers from a job loss as a result of a pandemic?

Oh, that's a great and tough question. I am not a personal finance expert, but my assumption would be that in the same way that, you know, many families often have an emergency, you know, savings account to whether job loss or other economic stress that they might go under, you know, certainly it might be helpful for landlords to put something similar into practice to account for something like a pandemic, which none of us. you know, had anticipated it all. So, you know, I sympathize with landlords who may be going under financial stress of their own. We do actually have data, though, on rental profits in housing. And, you know, I wish that, you know, more landlords were like you or your listeners. But we know that the rental profits in low-income housing are actually greatest because in low-income housing, there is a greater likelihood that the mortgage has been paid off. So even though a landlord still has to cover, you know, necessary repairs, property taxes, and other expenses, they are less likely to have an imminent mortgage payment. So, you know, as we think about

who is most at risk for an eviction and possibly homelessness and also the financial needs of a landlord that should certainly be a part of conversations that we're having. And the only other thing that I want to add to that is I really appreciate that your interest and the interest of your listeners in this topic. And we do also see in our data that mom and pop landlords are relatively less likely to evict a tenant than large property owners. So you know that is also, you know, reflected in our data. But we're still trying to address a housing crisis that is bigger than any.

one landlord or tenant. How much do mom and pop landlords make up the landscape of landlords? How big of a slice of the pie are we? I don't actually think I can answer that yet. We have some data on that, but it's not yet publicly available. And while Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac have put out some estimates as to the percentage of the market that is controlled by small versus larger property owners, you know, we're in the process of researching that further. That being said, we did see that following the Great Recession,

between 2007 and 2010, that many property owners, particularly property owners of color, lost their homes and lost rental properties due to predatory lending and other discriminatory policies in our housing market. And as a result, many of those properties were bought up by large property owners. We have seen market consolidation, meaning that, you know, there are more big landlords than there used to be. But in terms of exact figures, you know, we don't yet have publicly available data on that. Do you have any guesses on why it might be the case that mom and pop landlords are less likely to evict? That's a good question. question, without being, without being psychic, you know, my, my assumption is that mom and pop landlords are more likely to be connected or aware of or empathetic towards the circumstances of their tenant than a large property owner who comes in less contact with their tenants or, let's say, the ramifications that an eviction might have on someone who's living in one of their properties.

In some cases, we do see some property owners use the housing court process, the eviction process, as a way of extorting rent from tenants. I know that you're not doing that and that your listeners likely aren't doing that as well. But, you know, that is a broader pattern that we have seen in our data and that sometimes that process can be automated as well. So if a tenant, you know, pays on the second of the month rather than the first or, you know, the eighth rather than the first, that a landlord will sometimes just reach for eviction as the first option. And, you know, it's interesting to note that an eviction, eviction has not historically been such a common phenomenon. You know, we have historical accounts from the Great Depression showing that when tenants were evicted, it was so uncommon that sometimes neighbors would ban together to actually block the sheriff from entering a tenant's household

because it was perceived to be very inhumane. Clearly, a lot has changed since then, given how common we know this phenomenon is to date. So certainly we would welcome, you know, the supportive allies in the landlord community as we think through how we can devise a housing system in this country that ensures that people are safely and securely housed. Do you think that more strongly?

stringent screening would be a good preventative measure. So for example, if a landlord rather than requiring that the tenant earn three times the monthly rent as income, if instead a landlord required that the tenant earn four times the monthly rent as income, do you think that that would alleviate some of these issues? I don't really see this as like a screening problem per se. You know, we have data from the census and from other governmental bodies showing that rents have been increasing for the last three decades in a way that outpaces wages across the United States, not just in, you know, big coastal cities. We also know that our low income and affordable housing stock has shrunk during that time period, that we've lost millions of affordable and low income units. but people still need a place to stay and to live and raise their families. In addition to that, you know, tenant screening processes have often been found to

replicate many of the inequalities that, you know, we've discussed on this call. You know, we know that racial discrimination, for instance, continues in tenant screening processes to this day. And also that, you know, even a, you know, the most responsible family would struggle to have anticipated the fact that they might need to live off of savings for five plus months due to a global pandemic. So I don't think that, you know, it's necessarily fair to put that on tenants and landlords per se. I think that, you know, the more productive conversation would probably be, you know, how can we devise a system, a policies,

within the U.S. so that, you know, if someone falls on hard times, we can ensure that they have enough money and resources to get back up on their feet. You know, that could come in the form of rental assistance, unemployment assistance, more generous social services, et cetera. Prior to the pandemic, we knew that only one in four qualifying families living under the poverty line received rental assistance, and that is due to both underinvestment in housing by the federal government and by state governments, but it's also due to punitive measures that states have put into place under the assumption that any application for rental assistance is likely to be fraudulent. this is often due to like negative and prejudicial stereotyping in our society.

And we've seen different responses, you know, from other countries around the world. Canada, the UK and many countries in Europe have been making ongoing cash payments to their residents to make sure that they're able to pay for food and housing and all of the necessary living expenses we cannot go without. So, you know, instead of, I think, investing in tenant screening, I think that the better solution would be to massively overall our, you know, our social assistance system that could best be described as a very threadbare patchwork at this time. Well, those are all of the questions that I have.

Do you have any final tips for landlords who want to do the right thing, but also are limited by the reality of the bills that they themselves have to pay? Yeah, so I think what you're describing reminds me of, you know, something else that I've actually reported on that is not explicitly related, but if you'll bear with me, I used to do a lot of reporting on paid leave and child care and our child care system in this country, which is largely informal. And we would often hear from families, for instance, like who were thinking about employing a nanny or caregiver, you know, how do I make sure that my home is like a safe workplace for them? The National Domestic Workers Alliance, for instance, has an affiliate called Hand-in-hand

that has created best practices. You know, like if you're employing someone in your home, how do you set up a fair and just contract, a fair and just wage, paid time off, things like that? And I think that it would be welcome to see similar developments within the property owning community. It's something that we haven't really seen emerge in so far. But, you know, certainly for yourself and for listeners who are interested in that, you know, we would love to see similar movements in the property owning and field as we have in, you know, the field of domestic work and other parts of our.

labor market. And if the landlord wanted to start that process or wanted to get involved, how should they begin? I would absolutely start first by getting in touch with local and state tenant organizing groups. So, you know, reach out to, you know, your mutual aid groups, to tenant unions, to start what are both hard but important conversations that need to happen, alliances across different groups are going to be important as we devise, you know, policies and responses to dismantle the poverty and racism that, you know, permeates our society. So getting involved at the local and state

level is a great starting point. Thank you. That is Alisa Derana with the Eviction Lab from Princeton University. This is such an important topic that we are going to continue this conversation in next week's PSA Thursday episode. This episode comes out Thursday, July 16, One week from now on Thursday, July 23rd, we are going to continue this, and we're going to, in that episode, cover specific tips for conversations that you can have with your tenants if your tenants are having a hard time paying rent. We will go into specific word for word scripts for text messages, emails, conversation openers. All of that is what we will cover in next week's PSA Thursday episode, which will air on Thursday, July 23rd, 2020. Make sure that you don't miss that episode or any of our other awesome upcoming episodes by hitting subscribe or follow in whatever app you're using to listen to this show.

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Thank you so much for tuning in. My name is Paula Pant. This is the Afford Anything podcast, and I will catch you in the next episode.