Afford Anything - Q&A: I Reached Financial Independence Three Years Early … Now What?

Starting point is 00:00:00 Joe, if you had to choose between retiring as soon as possible or paying off a mortgage, what would you go for? It depends on how much I like my job. Oh, well, it's also, I predict, going to depend on a variety of other factors, which we are about to discuss. Are we? We are because we are answering a detailed question from a caller. She is 53 years old. Her pseudonym is Carol, because she has called in before, and that was the name that we gave her. Carol, age 53, wants to talk about mortgage payoff versus early retirement.

Starting point is 00:00:37 But before we get to her question, we're going to first address a question from Susanna, who wants to hire her first CPA. And after we talk about all of this, we're going to discuss your feelings, Joe, about risk parity versus the efficient frontier. My feelings. Your feelings. Oh, I have feelings. And for people who are new to this and who don't know what risk parity,

Starting point is 00:01:00 or efficient frontier, I mean, don't worry, Joe's going to rant. And you're going to find whether you like it or not, you're going to find out. Oh, no. Big promises. Oh, well, Joe, I mean, I know you have strong feelings about risk parity. I may. Welcome to the Afford Anything Podcast, the show that knows you could afford anything, not everything. The show covers five pillars, financial psychology, increasing your income, investing, real estate, entrepreneurship, acronym, I'm your host, Paula Pant. I trained in economic reporting at Columbia and every other episode-ish. We answer questions that come from you and I do so with my buddy, the former financial planner, Joe Sal C-high. What's up, Joe?

Starting point is 00:01:42 You've known me for a long time, Paula, and you know about my ADD. ADHD, I thought. I was just wondering the other day, like, how many people with ADD does it take to screw in a light bulb? How many? You want to go for a bike ride? No. I should state for the record, both Joe and I have an ADHD diagnosis. It's only funny because it's so true in my life. That's a question I would ask. Yep, a thousand percent. That is, if you could see the behind the scenes of how this show gets edited,

Starting point is 00:02:16 it's like too, and I have not been on any medication for it for years. The medication interfered with my sleep. And so I didn't like taking it. And so I'm managing it naturally. culturally. And that is, there are good days and bad days. Yeah, me too. Mine, it just made me very efficient. I was such a taskmaster. It was so good when I was on the medication. But I love the creativity of creating what I do. And I was not creative. I just could not find one on the medication. My creativity for whatever reason just went dry. So same thing. I try not to think during the day. I have all my tasks lined up and I just knock them down. Just like we're going to knock down three questions today.

Starting point is 00:02:59 Look at that segue. Wow. The creativity that went into that segue. All right. Well, we're going to kick off with the first question, which comes from Susanna. Hi, Paula and Joe. I've been listening to your show for so many years, and I want to take this opportunity to thank you both for sharing your knowledge and experience with the world. Thank you.

Starting point is 00:03:24 My main question today is, how do I find an accountant for my personal taxes? I've been a self-prepared. I was just a W-2 worker with a couple of brokerage accounts with buy and whole investments. And I was living in Texas where there's no income tax. So I think there was nothing too complicated until now. I think my tax situation has become way too complicated. First, I recently got married and started five. jointly. Since then, my husband quit his W-2 and started his own business. Third, we moved to Portland,

Starting point is 00:04:04 Oregon this year, where we have state, county, and city income taxes. And fourth, we were practically forced to become landlords with rent-up covers only, like, 60% of our total mortgage payments. It's probably a story for another day, but the gist is we were. We were, bought the house in recent years when house prices started to drop, but they've kept dropping since, so we are underwater now. For me, these are too many changes at once, so I really want to get help with the taxes. I wonder if you have any advice on how to find a CPA? Is that even what I need? I asked Clause AI, and it only confused. me with a list of different credentials I've never heard of.

Starting point is 00:05:00 Do you have suggestions on where to find one, what to look for, what to ask, what to expect? Am I supposed to interview them? Maybe you can tell. I feel clueless. Do you have any recommendations for someone hiring an accountant for the first time? Any advice should help. Thank you. Susanna, first of all, congratulations on all of those life changes.

Starting point is 00:05:31 Congratulations on getting married. Congratulations to your husband on quitting his W-2 job and starting his own business. That's incredible. Congrats on the move to Portland. And I know that you're an accidental landlord. You didn't intend to be one. But becoming a landlord for the first time, whether you meant to be one or not, is a huge growth opportunity.

Starting point is 00:05:52 It's a learning opportunity. this may or may not be something that you want to continue, but either way, getting the experience of being a landlord is truly life-changing. And I don't say that lightly. So congratulations on everything, on all of that growth, on all of that life change. It sounds very positive, and it sounds like a lot of big steps in the right direction. I think this is a spot where so many people get confused, not even because it's too many changes. There is too much going on that needs to be done right. And there are too many opportunities available for you to trust software. I wouldn't trust software with your state of the world. And in fact,

Starting point is 00:06:34 it's interesting. My son, who's very public about what he does and owns a bunch of rental properties, he was actually, Paula admonished recently by a mentor for not having a bookkeeper because he was trying to pinch pennies. And he's like, you need to focus on real estate 24-7. So my son's trying to be or is. He's not even trying to be. He is a professional real estate investor. It's the way he spends his entire day. It is too important, this guy said, for you to be messing around with this stuff.

Starting point is 00:07:06 And I feel very strongly about this advice he got from this mentor. I think it applies. I think your husband probably needs to make sure he's got good bookkeeping. Not even probably. He needs good bookkeeping and I think finding a pro. But to your point, Susanna, there are a lot. a different things to look for. Paula, we can put them into three big buckets to make this really easy because we can eliminate one immediately. So the first one is you will see some people that do

Starting point is 00:07:36 taxes who are tax attorneys. They have done a lot of the stuff legally around taxes. They sometimes will complete your tax return. Generally speaking, what tax attorneys do, and all of this is general, by the way. I'm going to make some big swings here. So we're just going to keep it general so Susanna knows directionally where to go. Generally speaking, you don't need a tax attorney because the stuff that most tax attorneys focus on is not at all what you're looking for compared to the other two. Oh, I have another category of people that she doesn't want. Who's that? No offense to EAs. EAs are great in other circumstances. But I think for Susanna and the circumstances that she highlighted, she should not use an EA, she should use a CPA.

Starting point is 00:08:23 I think there's some EAs that can handle this, but I think as long as we qualified this with broad strokes, I also think, because those were the two that were left, were CPA and EA. EA's an enrolled agent. They've taken coursework through the IRS. They generally know the tax forms cold. That's what that's all about. They are masters at the tax forms, how to fill them out, how not to miss stuff. Their specialty, their training, maybe not their specialty, but their training is not been so heavy on finding opportunities as it is in making sure that you don't make mistakes. I think an EA is going to be a great gentle hand. Like, let's say if you just had the rental property and not the business, I may say an EA might be, might be good there. Yeah, yeah, I would agree with that. if it was one rental property and no business, if it was just W-2 income, one rental property,

Starting point is 00:09:24 and that was it, then sure. Yeah, yeah. You might be beyond software at that point, and you might trust a human more than software, so an EA would be the way to go. So you got tax attorney on one side. Right. You've got enrolled agent on the other. In the middle, you've got CPA.

Starting point is 00:09:38 Now, CPA is a minefield knowing what CPA you're going to have. You were going to say something, Paula? Well, oh, I was going to say that there are plenty of CPAs who have. who hire EAs inside of their company. They do. Right? So there are plenty of CPAs who you start working with that CPA. And then when you go to your meetings, there will be EAs present at that meeting.

Starting point is 00:10:00 That's perfectly fine because then you have EAs who are working under the direct supervision of a CPA. That's normal. Yeah. Fantastic. Yeah. CPAs do a lot of things. I know a lot of CPAs who just do. corporate records or do mergers and acquisitions. They do all kinds of stuff. I worked with CPAs that

Starting point is 00:10:25 negotiated on behalf of, at that time it was called the Chrysler Corporation, on behalf of Chrysler with the IRS. If you would hand them, Susanna, what you were looking for, they'd be lost. They would be complete, and they'd be the first ones to tell you in most cases. But I want to make sure that when you hire a CPA, you know somebody that specializes in small business. and real estate properties. That's what they do. That's the crux of their business. Because when you see CPA, I don't think a lot of people understand how wide that field can be. Right. And so, yes, Susanna, what I would recommend for you, because your question, your direct question is, how do you find an accountant for your personal taxes? I would interview a minimum of three. In fact, not just I would. I did because I recently went

Starting point is 00:11:13 through this, not recently, but maybe one and a half years ago, I decided to switch. I was working with a previous CPA. I decided to switch to a new one. And when I made that switch, I interviewed three different CPAs. The way that I initially selected them, I didn't know who to ask, because I wanted somebody who was local to New York. I didn't know who to ask for recommendations. I just didn't know enough people in New York at the time. And so I went online and I started looking up CPAs who specialized in specifically online-based small businesses. And the reason that I looked that up is because a small business that deals with heavy capital expenditures like forklifts, like the type of small business that is buying

Starting point is 00:12:02 forklifts or other heavy machinery is very different than the type of small business that is e-commerce and has lots and lots of inventories. and that's very different than the type of small business that is creating digital products and services. And so I went online and looked up CPAs who specialize in working with small businesses that are digital first. And so even in the world of small businesses, there's wide variety and you want to find a minimum of three who specialize in working with the type of business that your husband has started, that specific type of, you know, small business. And even in the digital first world, I mean, think about the people that are digital first,

Starting point is 00:12:49 but have a bunch of products. They're not doing the same thing you do. Do you mean physical products? Yeah, they have physical products, but they're digital. But they start off as being digital creators. Well, that would be more akin to the e-commerce model, right? Because with the e-commerce model, then you've got a bunch of inventory, and then it's FIFO versus LIFO in terms of the distribution of that inventory. Correct. Yeah. I'm just saying that this online world is very wide. Right. Exactly. And you wouldn't want those people. So I think I was agreeing with you. So yeah. So digital first versus physical product. You know, you might not have a brick and mortar storefront. But if you are selling physical products online, that is a very different type of business model than somebody who does not have inventory management as part of their business model. And you want a CPA who has a lot of clients who have that kind of experience, whichever. bucket you're in. Yeah, 100% agree. Hire CPA, but that's just the beginning. So what I would do is I would go online, look at various websites that are local to your area, find a CPA. I prefer,

Starting point is 00:13:52 there are many CPAs who work nationwide or who work regionally or multi-state. I prefer personally to find somebody who works in my local area. It's not a requirement. Your preferences may vary. I would start there at least. Look for somebody in your local area who specializes in the type of business that your husband runs. Because right now you've only got one rental property so that I'm less worried about that. If you had called and said, oh, I've got 10 rentals. That would be a different topic. But with one, that's not the thing you need to optimize for.

Starting point is 00:14:25 The thing you need to optimize for is the fact that you're married to somebody who's running a small business. Yeah, for me, having somebody local wasn't as important. I wanted somebody who did the type of thing that we did and also was in the same state. So it was wider. So I actually started with FinCon and found somebody in a state like Texas. You got a lot of people in Texas. But I found someone who's in Houston five hours away from me. But still in the same state works with online creators like me.

Starting point is 00:14:56 And we have a great fantastic relationship. I actually hire her firm both for my year end Texas and also. also for my bookkeeping, both. But yeah, Susanna, niche down both geographically as well as topically, like niche down in those two arenas, and then find a minimum of three who meet those niches, and then interview all three, and you will likely find that you have a rapport with one of those three. And that rapport matters, like chemistry matters. You are going to be having long, sometimes meandering, but detail.

Starting point is 00:15:34 conversations with your CPA at a minimum quarterly. And so you want to make sure that this is somebody that you connect with and that you can have those conversations with. And that's why that chemistry matters. And when I say meandering, what I mean is sometimes you and your CPA are brainstorming together. And it might be over Zoom, but you're brainstorming together and problem solving together, right? That's what I mean by meandering.

Starting point is 00:16:00 It's like you're not just hewing to a tactical agenda. you're strategizing and you're brainstorming and you're being creative and you need to do that with somebody that you really can be in that type of a space with. Not me, Andrew, because of Paul is ADHD. Just to be clear. ADHD. I was just thinking too about my relationship with Catherine, my CPA. You know, the cool thing is if your husband is newer in business, even if he's established in business, joining these

Starting point is 00:16:34 affinity groups or people that do what you do are so important. And this is one area where it's important because sharing notes about your CPA, who gives you tax help, where you find it, even if you go local like Paula did, if you find people that are further along in the similar business that you have, almost like I said, my son, Nick did. I've had that experience with people at Fincom, Paula. If I hadn't gone to our affinity group conference, you and I would have never met. I would have had no idea who Paula Pant was and the amount of stuff that I've learned from you, I would have never learned, which could include who your CPA would be. So I would highly recommend that your husband find that support network of people that are in a similar field.

Starting point is 00:17:26 And the reason I say that is because I always struggled with clients to have them do that, Paul, especially when they were starting, they're like, oh, I don't have time to go to a bunch of meetings. I don't have time to. And I kind of felt the same way before I went to FinCon the first time. And when somebody finally talked me into going and I got there, I'm like, why did I wait? What the hell was I waiting for? And I've never heard anybody say anything different when they finally go to a group of people that understand what the daily toil is of what you do. Right. So just to be clear, when we're talking about affinity groups, we mean other people who run the same type of business, same type of business, same niche, same vertical.

Starting point is 00:18:08 You're quote unquote competitors, but like your competitors are some of your best allies because they get it. Like they get it in a way that nobody else does. You and I are talking to people all the time that do what we do. I think about Cheryl, my spouse, she does. My son joined a group of people that are real estate investors online. They're competing for property sometimes, Paula, but they're sharing best practices. He found his mentor because his mentor was a guy who was working on a house down the street from a house he was working on. Yeah, but Susanna, to be clear, I mean, as you've outlined your circumstances, getting married is a normal thing that's not, you don't need to find a CPA who specializes in married couples versus singles. It's normal enough

Starting point is 00:18:55 that you don't need a niche in that arena. Living in point, Portland, Oregon, maybe, maybe not. I mean, I do think someone generally local, and they don't necessarily have to be in Portland, but somebody within 100 miles of there who understands the region well enough and has other clients, many, many other clients who are also based there, I do think that is helpful. One rental property, I get that it's underwater and that's very stressful, and I'm sorry to hear that, but one rental property is something pretty much any CPA can handle. I wouldn't specialize around that one, but running a business, that's a big deal. Quitting your W-2 and going

Starting point is 00:19:41 full-time into a business that you yourself own, everything pales in comparison with that. That is huge. That is a thousand percent what I would focus the specialty around. So thank you, Susanna, for the question. Best of luck with your search. for a CPA. Joe, I'm going to ask you that question again. Would you rather pay off a mortgage or retire early? Depends on how much I like my job. All right.

Starting point is 00:20:10 Well, we are going to peel back the layers of the onion on that question. That's coming up right after this word from the sponsors who make this show possible. This episode is brought to you by Accenture. When your advertising operations fall out of sync, Everything else follows. Spotify and Accenture are working together to reinvent the rhythm of ad sales, using automation, analytics, and smarter workflows to simplify campaign delivery and access better data across the business. The result? Less time spent on operations, more time connecting brands with the moments and fandoms that matter most. Learn more at Accenture.com slash Spotify.

Starting point is 00:20:53 When you're a mid-sized business, you need every competitive advantage you can get. Like an AI solution that works for you, not against you. SAP Grow is built with AI embedded at its core, working across every system. And it's ready to go from day one so you can hit the ground running. Bring it with SAP Grow. AI Cloud ERP for any size business. Hey, y'all, it's Kelly Clarkson with Wayfair. Ever order furniture online and wonder, what if?

Starting point is 00:21:22 Like, what if it doesn't hold up? That sofa was four days old. You should have ordered from Wayfair. With Wayfair, there's no what if. Just style you love and, quality you can trust. Visit wayfair.ca. Wayfair, every style, every home. Welcome back. Our next question comes from Carol. Hi, Paula and Joe. This is an update for you along with the new question. You answered my first question in episode 412 and gave me the name Carol after the only woman who has won four Policur prizes

Starting point is 00:21:56 in journalism. At that time, I had about 750,000 in retirement savings. I appreciated your answers and took them into consideration in my investment choices. I'm now 53, and since my previous question to you, I'd set a retirement goal date of June 2030 at age 57 with $1.4 million in savings. This timing was planned primarily around my brokerage account as my bridge fund to age 59 and a half. Most of my retirement funds are in pre-tax accounts. I'm in the fortunate position of having reached my FI goal amount already, a few years ahead of schedule. However, I don't have enough in my brokerage account to fund six years of expenses. I could probably get four years out of it. I've been trying to save more cash in my brokerage account, but I got a new idea that I want to run past you. I have a

Starting point is 00:22:44 condo in a neighboring state that is currently rented out, and the plan is to go back to it, likely with my partner after his retirement in at least 10 years from now. The interest rate is 4.125% and the payment is low at $1,100 per month. I pay taxes and insurance directly separately, and it has a remaining principal balance of just under 124,000. It's scheduled to be paid off in 2038, and I'd always built this into my early retirement plan. However, I've begun to wonder if it makes sense to paid off early for the following four reasons. Number one, I have the time, so to speak, since I was always planning to retire in 2030 anyway. Number two, if I direct nearly all of my after-tax savings for my W-2 job and rental income, I could have it fully or nearly fully paid off by my retirement goal date.

Starting point is 00:23:31 Number three, with such a short timeline, this seems as good of an investment choice as saving cash in a high-yield savings account. Number four, not having a mortgage payment would allow me to manage my income much more easily to get more ACA subsidies and probably even do Roth conversions at the same time until age 65. While paying it down, I would still at least get the match in my company's simple IRA and contribute some to my Roth IRA, but would save very little otherwise. I do already have a six-month emergency fund plus a sinking fund for any condo issues. What do you think? Is this a good idea? Or should I just focus on retiring as soon as possible by using IRS Rule 72T to access my pre-tax accounts early, since I don't have access to a 401k and the rule of 55? My current job is work from home and very flexible and low stress, so there's no huge push there. I have a tiny side hustle that nets me only a few extra thousand per year.

Starting point is 00:24:30 but is a very rewarding and enjoyable. And I plan to continue this after retirement. But I know I wouldn't want any other full or part-time job, at least for the first two years. I would love to hear your thoughts. Carol, congratulations on how far you've come between episode 412 and today. Steve, can we get a round of applause? Really? What an incredible success story.

Starting point is 00:24:57 You had $750,000 the last. time that you called in and you have 1.4 million right now and you beat your retire early goal. Like you're calling in with the best possible problem, which is you actually beat the goal that you set and you're like, do I take the win or do I make it even better? Wow. That's incredible. So first, congratulations. And second, I hope that everyone else who's listening hears that.

Starting point is 00:25:30 finds inspiration and education in that. Because if Carol can do it, so can you. So good. I truly want this to be a community where people take inspiration and knowledge from your fellow peers inside of this community. So to everyone who's listening, go back and listen to our question again and take inspiration from that because especially for those of you who are at the beginning of your journey or if you're in the messy middle, that murky middle where everything just feels really slow. The novelty of the beginning has worn off and now you're just like going through that middling slog listening to Carol can really help you through that. So what do you do, Paula?

Starting point is 00:26:16 Carol, it sounds like you like your job. As you've stated, you work from home. The job is very flexible. The job is super low stress. And in addition, to all of that, I don't hear a compelling alternative of something that you want to rapidly retire into. If you had called in and said, I'm obsessed with surfing and all I want to do is surf and it breaks my heart every single day that I can't do that. And I would love to devote myself to that entirely. But do I do it now or do I wait until 2030? If you had called in and said that, we would be having a totally different conversation. And it doesn't have to be surfing. It could be needlepoint. It could be painting. It could be miming. Right. It could be anything. None of my business

Starting point is 00:27:08 what your hobbies are. But if you had some passion that was just driving you and you felt pain about not being able to express that in your life, we'd be having a totally different conversation. but it sounds to me like you like what you do and correct me if I'm wrong, but my interpretation is you're not in a huge hurry to leave your job. So I say, to quote you, you have the time. It is interesting because that was my first take too. And it was basically the way that she lit up when she talked about this. But then I started wondering, and I really want to make sure that Carol hears what

Starting point is 00:27:53 I'm saying correctly. And so does the rest of the afforders, because I'm talking to a bunch of us money geeks, right? I heard her voice kind of light up when she talked about doing this. I have a different idea and I have the time and her voice lit up. And I just want to make sure of one thing before I jump into a hundred percent agreeing with Paula, a hundred percent agreement, which is this. sometimes we light up because we're excited about the new possibility. But there also is the fact that we have this incredible comfort zone where we do the thing that makes the money train go. That's why we listen to this podcast.

Starting point is 00:28:36 It's why we are who we are. And before you decide to spend more time at work and pay down a mortgage that's at a low interest rate. I love all of that, by the way, if what Paula says is true. But I want to make sure, I just want you to make sure, Carol, that this isn't procrastination in disguise. And the reason is, Paula, you and I have talked to too many people who experience one more year syndrome, right? This came at you much faster than you thought that it was going to come at you. This is exciting. It's new. But it also means it can be frightening as all. get out. It's a whole new chapter. It's this whole new vast wilderness of opportunities.

Starting point is 00:29:24 And that little voice in the back of your head might go, hey, you know what I got an idea that is way more comfortable. And that is you keep doing what you're doing now. We just pay off the mortgage instead. I don't think that's the case because my vibe, Paula, was exactly what yours is. But you and I have seen it way too many times from people very, very comfortable making money. It's who we are as a community by and large. That's who we are. Don't let procrastination disguise itself as, I'm going to do this thing that doesn't respect enough that we over respect money. And because of that, we often under respect the amount of time we have to do other things, to climb other mountains. Yeah. I fully agree with everything that you just said. I'll also state,

Starting point is 00:30:14 I was talking to somebody recently who said, I have the opposite of one more year syndrome. I have one less year syndrome. I am so, they were like, I am so eager to get out of my job that even before I'm truly ready, even before the numbers line up,

Starting point is 00:30:37 I'm constantly going, okay, if I make the most optimistic projections possible, can I get out of here? one year sooner. If you really want to be out of there, you know. That's not where I thought you were going with that, Paula, because I think there's a different syndrome, which is just the opposite way to look at it. One year that you spend doing this is one year off the end of your life when you could have been doing something else. And I think

Starting point is 00:31:06 often we weigh where we're at heavily. But holy crap, if you have one less year syndrome, I'm with, don't even wait for, who cares if you retire? Get the hell out of there. Get out of that spot now. Yeah, I suppose in that regard, one more year syndrome is at a minimum, a positive sign that, you know, a sign that you don't feel. I was about to say a positive sign that you don't feel negatively. Right. But at least you feel comfortable doing what you're doing.

Starting point is 00:31:36 Right. Exactly. Exactly. One more sign, you're not negative. Yeah. Yeah. But I fully, the way I heard her voice light up, I do think, Paula, that you are spot on. If she does love it and she's very happy, sometimes just the fact that we know that we're financially

Starting point is 00:31:55 independent makes our job more fun. Yeah, it does. It makes the job more fun. It makes it, it just, it makes it a choice. It's the distinction between, I hate to use this analogy, but I'm just going to say it. It's the distinction between like being in a relationship because you, want to be in it versus being in it because you feel as though some outside circumstance is forcing you to stay.

Starting point is 00:32:21 And you don't necessarily want to be there, but there's some outside external circumstance that's at a minimum highly pressuring you to stay in. And in this case, that outside influence to stay in the relationship would be next week's bills. Right. When you know that what you're doing is a choice, I mean, we haven't mentioned this yet on the recording. I'm in Spain right now. Like, I'm recording this episode from Spain.

Starting point is 00:32:56 And that's a choice, you know. She just wants to spend more time with me. Yeah, exactly. I texted Joe earlier today and I was like, hey, are you free at like 6 p.m. Oh, no, sorry, 5 p.m. Central, which is midnight in San Sebastian. And Joe was like, you want to record at midnight in San Sebastian? And I was like, want is a strong word, Joe. But seriously, if you didn't want to, you wouldn't.

Starting point is 00:33:28 Exactly. This is the type of thing that if it made you unhappy, you just wouldn't do it. well frankly I'm because of jet lag I'm like wide awake even though it's 1 a.m. here I'm still on east coast time so I am wide awake because it's like 6 p.m. on the east coast. Plus what's more fun than yucking it up with the forters at 1 a.m. in Spain. It's like I get to talk to my buddy Joe. I get to answer some questions about personal finance, which is my favorite topic. Worse things have happened to better people. Sometimes it's pinch yourself.

Starting point is 00:34:06 I mean, it's just so enjoyable. Exactly. And so the point of that is that if you like what you do, then even the inconvenient things are still kind of something that you laugh about and something that at the end of the day you don't really mind because you're kind of just good with it. You kind of feel lucky that this is the position that you're, position that you're in and you enjoy it and you're good with it. And so even when stuff gets

Starting point is 00:34:36 inconvenient, you're like, cool, I'm down. I got this. I'm happy. And if that's how you feel about your job, Carol, then stay in and stay in for as long as you feel that way or until there's some compelling reason to do something else. But I guess, Joe, to your original answer, If you like your job, if you're happy with it, I don't see any reason for you to accelerate early retirement simply because you can. And I also don't see any reason for you to delay early retirement simply because you have a mortgage. So the whole thing hinges on, do you like the work that you do or not?

Starting point is 00:35:25 Did I predict that one when I said it depends on if I like my job? Yeah, you kind of did. Wow. Notice what we didn't talk about. The math nerds, I'm sure we're honing in on the 4.1%. We didn't go near the 4.1%. At this point in the game, it's pretty irrelevant. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:35:45 Because she's financially independent. So who cares about the 4.1? Exactly. That was my favorite part of that answer, what we didn't say. That now we are pointing out that we didn't say. Pat us on the back. So Carol, congratulations on the position that you're in. Super. Great. I love these, the callbacks.

Starting point is 00:36:07 Right? These are my favorite. And Carol, that's why you won four Pulitzer prizes right there. All right, we're going to take a final break to hear from the sponsors who make the show possible. You're going to take a break? Just a brief one. Just a little one. And when we return, Joe, we're going to talk about your two favorite topics, the efficient frontier and risk parity. When you're a mid-sized business, you need to be a big-sized business. You need to be a very important. every competitive advantage you can get. Like an AI solution that works for you, not against you.

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Starting point is 00:36:58 in 1996, the vibes were a bit different. People thought denim on denim was peak fashion, inline skates were everywhere, and two out of three women rocked, the Rachel. While those things stayed in the 90s, one thing that hasn't is that fuzzy feeling you get when WestJet welcomes you on board. Here's to Westjetting since 96. Travel back in time with us and actually travel with us at westjet.com slash 30 years. Welcome back.

Starting point is 00:37:29 Our final question today comes from Mark. Hey, Paula and Joe, this is Mark from Salt Lake City. And I was recently listening to episode 734 where you all were responding to a caller that was trying to adjust their portfolio after moving away from a financial advisor, and you were recommending that they truly understand the funds that they want to be invested in. And you were talking about how having lots of funds that may be optimal, possibly along the efficient frontier, is important, but also you need to understand why you're holding those funds. And at one point in the conversation, Joe actually mentioned that he was not a fan of risk parity style portfolios. And I was curious to get more information on why that is

Starting point is 00:38:18 the case where if you kind of take the efficient frontier concept to its extreme and final conclusion, you eventually arrive, I think in most cases, at a risk parity style portfolio. So I would really like to hear your thoughts on why you are in favor of the efficient frontier. I mean, I kind of understand that already, but then why are you against risk parity style portfolios? I'm a person that really enjoys learning about new financial concepts and have been a big fan of Frank Vasquez's Risk Parity Radio podcast, have learned a lot from him. And knowing that risk parity portfolios perform well in different economic environments was intriguing to me, especially in the future for a drawdown portfolio, maybe not so much for an accumulation portfolio. And I think Frank is quick to admit that, that risk parity is super beneficial for drawdown portfolios. in particular. So I'd be curious to hear further thoughts on why you might not be a fan,

Starting point is 00:39:21 a risk parity, but would still hold to wanting to push for efficient frontier usage, which makes sense to me. I totally get the efficient frontier and why you would want that, but then why not taking it all the way to the risk parity portfolio style solutions. Love what you guys are doing. I love your Q&A episodes. Thank you so much, and look forward to hearing your responses. Mark, thank you so much for the question. And you know what? It is a great question because what's interesting is having been a friend, an online friend. It's funny. Frank and I have both been at the same conference economy multiple years. Never met in person and not on purpose. Frank and I have always talked about meeting face-to-face someday. I can't believe I've been there several times, never came face-to-face with Frank. And what's also interesting, interesting is Frank and I also agree on about 95% of everything that we talk about. The frustrating thing that I've always told Frank is that he makes a big deal about the 5% that we disagree on.

Starting point is 00:40:30 And that's what this is going to do, by the way. So I want to start off with that, Paula, because I do feel like it's the 5%. And I feel like Frank does make people smarter before I really rip into. Oh boy. Here he goes. I'm going to kick back with some popcorn. We're going to let Joe cook. I have said to Frank several times that very, very smart people, not just me, very smart people, do not end at what Frank calls risk parity. And we'll get into whether it's actually risk parity or not. But very smart people, practitioners don't advocate for risk parity. You see CFPs that are phenomenal at what they do, have phenomenal results, don't do risk parity. And you have to wonder, and I've brought this up with Frank many times, either all these incredibly brilliant people

Starting point is 00:41:27 are either what he says sometimes scammers. He calls them scammers or hoarders. He'll often call them, people running their business incorrectly by old models. So they're either willfully doing this to their clients, avoiding something which would solve a lot of problems. Or, this is crazy, maybe there's a reason why they actually don't like risk parity. So what you're saying, Joe, is that you're establishing there are valid reasons

Starting point is 00:42:00 that you are about to go into as to why the pros don't often recommend this. Yeah, and I'm also saying, Mark, it ain't just me. It ain't just me. Look around at people who actually practice this stuff, not people who talk about it and don't have clients. And I've never seen how this actually works with somebody else's money besides their own. It's okay to do it with your own money. For me to say it, a guy who feels very responsible for other people's money and used to be directly responsible for other people's money would be incorrect because I don't believe it. And again, just to highlight, Frank Vasquez is a retired attorney. And so, Joe, what you're

Starting point is 00:42:42 illustrating is a distinction between somebody like you who's a former financial advisor who worked with clients versus a retired attorney managing his own portfolio. That's right. Or, you know, yeah, me, current CFPs, super smart people who don't agree. I'm not going to get into all of the science because for me, it isn't the science that makes me like efficient frontier and not like risk parity. So I'm not going to get into that of where I think Frank is wrong. Plus, there's somebody who did it far better than I could ever do it. If you go to a blog called Early Retirement Now, which is run by a gentleman who we call Big Earn, Carson Jusky, a very smart guy. Another guy who traditionally, he has clients now, but traditionally did not have clients.

Starting point is 00:43:31 but he really, really loves diving deep into the numbers and into the math. And his last two posts have been how to lie with personal finance part four risk parity. And the one before that, can we increase the safe withdrawal rate with risk parity? Something that Frank says you can do. Karsten shows you can't. You can't. And it doesn't work as well as Frank says that it will. Okay, so we will link to both of those articles in the show notes.

Starting point is 00:44:03 So if you're interested in the math, he very, very thoroughly talks about some of the assumptions that don't really land and whether this is actually risk parity or not and why Carston doesn't think you should do it. He and I had a long talk in March. We were together at a conference and had a long discussion about this. and we came to the same conclusion, he's published is, I will give you mine now, because mine is for different reasons. I don't like risk parity because,

Starting point is 00:44:37 from a practitioner point of view, I believe the biggest problem with your portfolio is you. You are the biggest problem. And look at how much, over the last 25 years, behavioral economics have really become much more front and how we've seen how our inability to do simple math when we make decisions,

Starting point is 00:45:04 our inability to realize just how small we are and how we are not different than everybody else. We think we're smarter than other people, just our brain, you know, thinks we're super smart. So we make these decisions that we've been told over and over are bad for other people, but they're going to be good for us, damn it. And what's interesting, Paula, is that I saw this for 16 years working with people, I saw people make the worst decisions. And then I look at my own decisions and I've been there too. I've made bad decisions. The thing that blew me up was me.

Starting point is 00:45:38 So my goal is to make sure that you understand what you have, which is exactly Mark, what you said. But I also don't want to be in the spot where I think I can predict the future. Because the thing that happens when I dive into, not just one of Franksworth, parody portfolios, but also I've said before, I love Paul Merriman. I love exactly what Paul Merriman says. I highly, highly dislike somebody going out and buying off the shelf one of Paul Merriman's portfolios. I've used Paul Merriman to prove my point that you can do better than VTSAX. Paul Merriman's amazing. Frank Fasquez is a guy who's done a lot of great work for people

Starting point is 00:46:20 by also saying something similar. For listeners who are unfamiliar, Paul Merriman, who's a former guest on this podcast, and we'll link to those in the show notes as well. He is someone who has put together model asset allocations, the four fund portfolio, the eight fund portfolio, the 10 fund portfolio. So he's put together these model asset allocations that through his research and through lots of back testing, he shows would beat a less diversified portfolio. It would beat a VTSAX plus a bond fund, which is what J.L. Collins, a different previous guest recommends. So just to back this up for new listeners who are unfamiliar with this, we've got a previous podcast guest

Starting point is 00:47:10 named J.L. Collins, who recommends just two portfolios. One is a broad market stock index fund, and the other is a bond fund. One of our previous guests, Jail Collins, says, just have one fund that represents the entire U.S. stock market, have one fund that represents

Starting point is 00:47:29 the entire U.S. bond market. That's it. All you need is two funds. So that's J.L. Collins. Then you've got Palmerman who says, here's a lot of back testing and a lot of math

Starting point is 00:47:38 and a lot of data to show that if you just expand to these particular four funds or these particular eight or these particular 10, you can get better returns without taking on substantially more risk. And so that's the Paul Merriman approach. And then you've got Frank Vasquez, whose approach is not about what you should invest in while you're growing your portfolio. His approach is what you should invest in when you are drawing down from your portfolio.

Starting point is 00:48:05 And he says, here's a different way that you can allocate your assets as you're drawing down that would allow you to take bigger withdrawals. And that's the Frank Vasquez thing. And if you're brand new here, and this is like a bunch of word salad, we're going to link in the show notes to all of these. For the people who have been with us for a while, this makes sense. But if you're new here, you've got some, what do you call it in college when you have to take a class before you can take the next class? Pre requisites.

Starting point is 00:48:35 Pre-requisites. Yeah, there are a couple of prerequisites that you need to listen to before you can understand, before you can even understand what Mark's question is. Yeah, and there's a reason, Mark, why I should put your question at the end of the show is for specifically that reason. It wasn't because it's not interesting to those of us have been here for a long time. It's because this is way, way, way over a lot of people said. Yes. This question is not for beginners.

Starting point is 00:48:59 I should have said that at the beginning. This question is not for beginners. No, you got to know a lot of the people. You got to know a lot of the discussions going on behind the scenes. You got to know everybody's little fiefdom of what they talk about. And let me go over that continuing with you, Paula. because I really like the way that you laid that out. I love J.L. Collins' position because the place where I agree with J.L.

Starting point is 00:49:21 is that you can get there using J.L.'s portfolio. You can get there. You don't need to be fancy. You don't need to do other things. You don't need to do more. That's pretty exciting that you don't need more. I like that. Then I agree, though, with former guest of yours and mine, Nick Majuli, a friend of ours as well, who makes the point that at about $100,000 it starts to matter. My $100,000 comes from Nick's research. And my research- When Joe says his $100,000 comes from Nick's research, he doesn't mean he has $100,000 from Nick.

Starting point is 00:49:56 No. I mean that my number where I say it starts to matter at $100,000 comes from Nick's research that initially Nick said that he spent way too much time thinking about his proper asset allocation and not enough about shoveling money in. He really need to think about shoveling more money in. Yeah. Once you get to $100,000, then J.L. Collins approach, where it will still get you to your goal is inefficient.

Starting point is 00:50:24 That's when it really begins to show that it's inefficient. And meanwhile, I realize I just went through the roster of J.L. Collins, Paul Merriman, Frank Fasquez, and now we've introduced Nick Majulian to the mix. These are all different investment thinkers. I'm going to do three more. Just to confuse that. letter, but actually, I do have one more person coming up. Well, we haven't properly introduced. Carson Yeska, also known as Big Earn, ERN for early retirement now, which is the name of his blog, all of which we're linking to in the show notes.

Starting point is 00:50:53 But Big Earn and he often goes head to head against both Paul Merriman and Frank Vaz. Yeah, exactly. I don't even know how I would describe his ideas other than he will debate Paul Merriman on the importance of small cap value funds, and he will debate Paul Vasquez on risk parity, and he has his own unique take on all of it. The reason that we've had them all on the show is because for F-E, which is what our show covers, financial psychology, increasing your income, investing real estate entrepreneurship, that second I investing, there is not one agreed-upon way to do this. So it's important to get voices from across the spectrum. And that is going to be where I end up

Starting point is 00:51:43 as well, Paula. And I think the reason why you and I get along so well is because of, is because of this, which is, I'm going to introduce one more person who the afforders are going to hear soon. I've heard. I interviewed him a few months ago. He's a historian who has a best sell, New York Times bestseller. He's an amazing interview. I can't wait to hear he and Paula talk together. But when I interviewed him on stacking Benjamin's and in subsequent conversations, this historian, Joseph Moore, Joseph said, you know, the problem that we have in investing is that we think that history repeats itself. And the problem is it doesn't repeat itself. It doesn't.

Starting point is 00:52:32 and this is where historically through the ages people have lost fortunes because they thought that what happened in the past was going to happen again in the future which if that sentence frightens you it it kind of should so what we don't know what we don't know is where the world is going next and by the way i firmly believe that i believe that i believe the economy will exist. I also believe in broad indices is a better way to get there than individual stocks. But I also believe that we don't know what's coming up tomorrow, the next day, the next day, the next day. So J.L. Collins actually said this next thing. J.L. Collins said the thing that's your best friend is flexibility. And I do believe your best friend is flexibility. The only place I disagree with J.L. Collins is on how efficiently you can get to flexibility. And the way you get there, the way I saw it work as a practicing professional was if you knew what you had and the conversation

Starting point is 00:53:42 changed in a way that it's never changed, the way that's never been, you're going to be better off if you know what you own and you know why you own it. So when I recommend the efficient frontier, based on Paul Merriman's research, by the way. The efficient frontier isn't. My love of it is based on the fact that it worked for me when I was a financial planner, but I also know that it does better than the J.L. Collins approach long term. It historically has. And by the way, we don't know that it will, but hang on with me.

Starting point is 00:54:15 I believe that if history rhymes, you will do better by having a diversified portfolio. But here's what I really love about it. when you go through the process of watching the video, Paula, that we made about the efficient frontier, and you actually work through getting these funds and you look at where they fall in the efficient frontier and you actually take the time to understand, which is not nearly as hard as people think that it is when they first approach it because the words efficient frontier are not made to be approachable. But actually, what they represent is incredibly approachable. Like once I got it, I don't know about you, Paula, but once I got it, I got it, I got it.

Starting point is 00:54:52 it. Like it is, it is not hard. I see small cap value way off to the right. I see my savings account way down and to the left. I get the juxtaposition on this chart that Dr. Harry Markowitz won a Nobel Prize for. I understand the relationship now between where small cap value sits, where large companies sit, and where my savings account sits, where treasuries sit, where real estate sits. When I look at them individually, it's fun to play with to see these things and I start to get the feeling of how they interrelate when it comes to return versus volatility. And the thing that we do know is volatility is going to happen. Volatility on the upside, the first half of the year, this year. Volatility on the downside, everything since

Starting point is 00:55:39 the first, actually the last few days as we record this, not all that bad, but everything since the first half of the year hasn't been as as nice. So when we look at volatility, what I saw was people blowing themselves up. And when you put together your own portfolio that is more efficient than VTSAX, but isn't as rigorous and structured and, oh yeah, it's going to work, but you really don't know why that is the reason people use risk parity because I believe 85% of the people, I'm sorry, Frank, I believe 85% of people using risk parity in our community don't understand what they're getting into because they don't understand. Why do you have commodities and gold and have them separate? And why do you have them in such large numbers that a pro

Starting point is 00:56:34 with a client would never use numbers that big? Why would you use those percentages? Why would you put together this portfolio that isn't as driven by equities over long timeframes as history would suggest? And again, I don't know the history is going to repeat itself. I just know that I know what happens to equities when the economy triggers start to move. when Paula talks about the economy here on the show and what's happening, the response to equities have have been pretty damn predictable, pretty obvious. The number comes out. The market responds in a way that I get. I don't understand how the risk parity portfolio. I get how it responds as a group. And listen, as I say, I don't get it. I get it. I've studied these assets. I've studied this way of investment. I understand what Frank's talking about. I just agree with Joseph Moore that I don't know that the past is going to equal the future. And even in the past, Big Earn says, the past ain't as rosy all the time for risk parity as it has been in this little sunshine period.

Starting point is 00:57:51 So I have a choice. I can lock myself in to a philosophy of investing that demands that I keep it versus I put together. a portfolio of asset classes that work together in a way that I somewhat understand. I don't have to be a pro at it, but I at least understand why I bought it. I understand where it sits on the risk versus return graph. And so I understand when conditions change, why my portfolio is moving the way that it moves. Because it isn't the market in my experience that blew people up. It was you. And at some point, I believe that a lot of practitioners of risk parity are going to go, I don't understand this. It's not performing.

Starting point is 00:58:38 I don't get why it's not performing. Guess what I'm going to do. I'm going to get rid of it, which could be horrible. And generally, by the way, we make those decisions at the wrong time. So my position about the efficient frontier isn't because it's great. And by the way, I already know. I already know. I'll give this away.

Starting point is 00:58:57 I know that the efficient frontier always moves. moves. So I know that when I tell people to learn the efficient frontier, I'm telling you, I think it's going to be suboptimal. Because the thing that I'm giving away is that I know what optimal is. I don't know. And I don't think you do. And I don't think Frank does. That's why I like the efficient frontier and I don't like risk parity. Joe, what I essentially hear you saying is you like the efficient frontier because you know why you have constructed your portfolio in the way in which you have. It's like being a chef, you know why every ingredient goes into the dish. And you know that if you add fat, you counterbalance it with some acid, which you counterbalance with some

Starting point is 00:59:38 salt, which you, you know that the acid, fat, salt heat. Which is a great analogy because I didn't understand that until I, I didn't read her book. I watched her Netflix special. And when I watched her Netflix shows and I saw the relationship between those four things, it made my cooking so much better. Right. And so when you know why you're adding various ingredients into a dish, then you're operating from first principles. And so when conditions change, you can modulate accordingly versus if you you are just following the recipe as instructed and you don't actually understand why those ingredients are in the dish, then when conditions change, you might panic and throw out the whole recipe entirely and go to a totally different recipe by a totally different chef and also not know why you've got

Starting point is 01:00:27 that one. No idea. You just heard they were better. Right. Oh, this is better. So what you're saying is first principles thinking essentially. 100%. The efficient frontier because it has first principles thinking.

Starting point is 01:00:37 And because of that, there's better behavioral compliance. Yeah. Stop chasing some. Don't chase Paul's stuff. Paul's brilliant. Don't chase Frank stuff. I love 95% of what Frank does. I love the way he serves.

Starting point is 01:00:52 the community. I don't like the way he talks to people sometimes in the forum. I think he's sometimes and he's put some velvet on that hammer. But I think that Frank has done a lot of good. I just wouldn't believe any of them. I don't believe J.L. Collins and stick with VTSAX. Because if I own VTSAX and I don't know why I own it, I just own it because J.L. Collins said, that's not a good answer, especially when it's so easy, it's so easy to dive in into how these asset classes work. It's actually kind of fun. It's really fun. And by the way, if you've done the Efficient Frontier and they're like, Joe, I've done the Efficient Frontier and I constructed my portfolio, but I really don't know how these asset classes work. The one thing you

Starting point is 01:01:35 and I didn't do, Paula, in that video was, I never made this point. If you're not sure why these asset classes are together this way, take them out. Take them out and just put them one at a time on the efficient frontier. So start off with your portfolio like we taught everybody to create and then take them out one by one or all of them together and show the points of the individuals. And then you will see, oh, that's the way treasuries look over a 15-year period historically. This is the way large company stocks have looked. You're going to get what the return has been versus what the volatility level has been for that. And when you see them in, you're individually, then you get a portfolio that's better than just the individual pieces.

Starting point is 01:02:25 Well, Mark, I hope that shed some light on your question. And thank you for inspiring this discussion, because it's an important question. Why would you favor an investment philosophy over an alternate investment philosophy? That's what these all are. These are frameworks of thinking about how. about one of the most pivotal questions of your life, which is how to allocate your own personal capital, which is a fancy way of saying,

Starting point is 01:02:55 where do you put your money? We've talked about a lot of thinkers who'd have different ideas, all of whom have different ideas, about how to manage your money. In the show notes, we are going to link to many of these episodes that, especially if you're new here, you haven't listened to these previous episodes,

Starting point is 01:03:15 this is the foundational building block for hearing each thinker in isolation and hearing each one make their case. And when's Joseph Moore coming? He is coming up. I interviewed him right before I left for this trip. Oh, actually, now that I think about it, I interviewed him the day that I flew, because I flew to France first before I came to Spain. You did. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:03:39 You did. The morning of. The morning of because I showed up to that interview with my suitcase. Yeah. And I went straight from that interview to the airport. Because you thought about doing this episode with me from the airport. Yeah, yeah. We were going to record from the airport.

Starting point is 01:03:57 And then Joe, I texted you and said, I'm on the verge of an international flight. Too much. Yeah, I really can't do the show from the airport. Let's do it once I land. And so here we are. But yeah, the Joseph Moore episode will air soon. I don't know the date, but it will air soon. Don't miss that one.

Starting point is 01:04:18 I have no idea what Paula, you said, but I'm just going to bet, based on my discussion with him, and a lot of our audiences listen to me talk to people and you ask completely different questions than I do. Just based on my discussion with them, oh my goodness, they're going to love it. You know what? I'll talk to the team and see if we can fast track that one. Well, thank you again, Mark, for the question. Joe, we have done it. Already?

Starting point is 01:04:47 Yeah. All the new people like, what just happened? Wait. I know, right? Nick Merriman? Jail Vasquez? Who are these people? We will have a very comprehensive list of links in the show notes for anyone who's new here

Starting point is 01:05:02 to listen to all of those prerect conversations so that you can hear these different investment philosophies come through. And they're so good. And I agree 100% Paula. I think if you really want to know the spectrum of what's out there and how to do things like Mark said, you know, dive in. Dive in. The more you know.

Starting point is 01:05:22 Yeah. Well, Joe, where can people find you if they'd like to know more? You can find me at the Stacking Benjamin show and listen to the part one. We call it the pre-interview for Paula's interview with Joseph Moore. If you just go back through the episodes of Stacking Benjamin's hear our discussion and then get ready for Paula's because it's going to be an adventure. I can't wait. I'm super excited to hear what you talked about. Joe, you're going to be in Alaska next week, right? So I will be, yes. We may need to not, so that means we might have to miss a Q&A recording. No. And the bad

Starting point is 01:06:03 news is I would do this from Alaska. Like Paul is doing it. Well, I'm sure everybody's like, Paula did it from Spain. Joe, you should do it from Alaska. The problem is, I told Paula before we started, I'm going to be at Lake Clark National Park and I will be off the grid completely. So unless there's a way for us to send mental telepathy signals, I'm not going to be able to. All right. Well, you know what?

Starting point is 01:06:31 In place of that episode, I'm going to talk to the team and I'll see if we can air Joseph Moore. Oh, look at you. Next Tuesday, August 25th, I'll talk to the team and we'll. We'll air that episode. So Affords, mom's not saying yes. Mom's saying maybe. But you know how you can listen?

Starting point is 01:06:54 You open up your favorite podcast playing app and you hit the follow button. Absolutely. Or go to YouTube, hit the notification bell. We've been a little off track on YouTube lately because we're trying a few new things, but we should be back on a normal YouTube publishing schedule soon. But hit the notification bell on YouTube. Open your favorite Apple podcast, Spotify, Pandora. Open your favorite audio app.

Starting point is 01:07:19 Hit the follow button. We've got something like 40% of the people who listen to this show are not actually subscribed to the show. So if you are listening to this and you are not subscribed, please open your app and hit the button. Because that is how you make sure that you don't miss any of these incredible interviews. We also have a free handout on this thing called Ascent. set location. That's a fancy way of saying, which investments do you keep in which types of accounts? Because you've got accounts with different tax treatments. You've got some accounts that are tax-free. You've got some accounts that are heavily taxed. And you've got some accounts where

Starting point is 01:07:59 you eventually pay the tax, but you postpone it. You've got all these, the fancy term is tax-exempt, tax-deferred, taxable. You've got all these different types of tax treatments in your accounts. What kinds of investments should you put into which accounts? We have a free four-page cheat sheet that walks you through it. Download it for free at afford anything.com slash asset location. That's afford anything.com slash asset location. Thank you so much for tuning in. I'm Paula Pant.

Starting point is 01:08:34 I'm Joe Solcii. Hi. And we'll meet you in the next episode. which will be after Paula goes to bed now that it's like 2 a.m. It is. It's 2 a.m. in Spain, but because my body is still adjusted to New York time, I am like, raccoon eyes wide awake. We could record another episode, Joe.

Starting point is 01:08:55 Oh, look at the time.

Afford Anything - Q&A: I Reached Financial Independence Three Years Early … Now What?

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