Afford Anything - Q&A: My Friend Won’t Invest - How Can I Help?

Episode Date: September 23, 2025

#645: Mike (02:50): After 15 years of intentional living, Mike is 80 percent of the way to financial independence. Now he’s trying to help friends take control of their own financial future. But what happens when one spouse is eager to learn and invest, while the other isn’t interested? Michael (27:07): For two years, Michael has tracked his net worth monthly. So far, growth has been driven almost entirely by how much he saved. But when will investment returns begin to take over and shift that steady line into an exponential curve? Alvaro (34:00): After 15 years of investing in U.S. and European real estate, Alvaro has a big decision to make. Should he leverage a commercial loan to build an ADU for short-term rental income, or take on more personal debt to expand their family home? Jonathan (58:50): After hearing Paula and Joe discuss the efficient frontier — and then listening to Big ERN, Paul Merriman, and JL Collins — Jonathan can’t help but wonder: has Joe’s perspective evolved? Is the simple path still enough, or is there merit in a more complex approach? Former financial planner Joe Saul-Sehy and I tackle these three questions in today’s episode. Enjoy! P.S. Got a question? Leave it ⁠here⁠. Resources Mentioned: JL Collins Part 1 and Part 2 Karsten Jeske (Big Ern) Episode 643 Paul Merriman Episode 550 Note: Timestamps will vary on individual listening devices based on dynamic advertising segments. The provided timestamps are approximate and may be several minutes off due to changing ad lengths. Share this episode with a friend, colleagues, your veterinarian: https://affordanything.com/episode645 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Joe, do you have any friends who are just not that interested in money? Oh, yes. Absolutely. I think everybody has those friends, don't we? Yeah, I definitely have those friends as well. The question, though, is what do you do when you want to help your friends, but you don't know if they're open to listening? Wow. We're going to discuss that today. We're also going to tackle a question from a listener who's wondering, at what point his investment returns will matter more than his contributions when it comes to growing his portfolio. We're also going to address a question from a listener who's wondering if he should borrow money to build an ADU

or if he should extend his primary residence. And we're going to hear from a listener who's wondering if you've rethought some of your teachings on the efficient frontier in light of new information. So we've got four questions today, Joe. Buckle up. Welcome to the Afford Anything Podcast, the show that knows you can afford anything, not everything. This show covers five pillars, financial psychology, increasing your income, investing, real estate, and entrepreneurship. It's double-eye fire. I'm your host, Paula Pant.

I trained in economic reporting at Columbia. Every other episode-ish, I answer questions that come from you. And I do so with my buddy, the former financial planner, Joe Sal C-high. What's up, Joe? Man, I got my coffee, and I'm ready to go, Paula. How about you? Oh, I am. I've got my Diet Coke right here.

hashtag not product placement. Okay, we're both caffeinated. We're ready to go. You know what? I just ordered a case of Celsius. Oh. Which is also a caffeinated beverage. Celsius is really good.

I've heard that. I've literally never tried it, but it's on its way to my apartment right now. Did you see in the news recently that Celsius, by the way, also makes high noon an alcoholic, Seltzer beverage? Oh, like a white claw competitor. Yes.

the boozy seltzer water. They had a recall because they accidentally put some alcohol into Celsius. Are you serious? Oh, man. Can you imagine somebody going to get the refreshing drink? Oh, which you often drink during the workday in order to focus more because it's like, it's supposed to be a caffeinated performance beverage. Wow.

Why is Paula sleeping at noon at her desk? Man, someone had a terrible conference. call that day. Yeah, that was not a good day for them. So maybe it all is in the eye the beholder. It's like the Willy Wonka package. The golden ticket. Because I got the alcoholic cells, well, speaking of being intentional about your choices. She can segue anything, people. How's that for a segue? Speaking of intentionality, our first question comes from Mike. Hi, Paula, love the show. Thanks for all you're doing. Please keep it up. My name is Mike. I'm 52. About 80% of the way to financial independence after about 15 years of intentional living.

We've done pretty well. I'm actually a helicopter pilot by trade, but I've developed a real passion for personal finance. And I'm always trying to help my friends and family and anybody that will listen to learn how to spend less than they make and invest for their own future, for their family and for their freedom. but I've hit a situation that I'm not sure what to do. I have a friend. She's 45. She's married, two kids. One just started college, the other one's in high school. She and her husband don't want to work forever.

They know they need to invest. But the challenge is they live financially separate lives. They split rent, food, and bills through a joint checking account, but everything else is separate. They have their own checking and savings accounts on the sides. I believe he makes about twice, which she does. I guess it doesn't matter. but I'm told everything that they've saved is sitting in like a money market account or a high-yield

savings account. So no real investing, no real growth. She's open to learning more and wants help, but he's not that interested. She said that they're afraid of the stock market and start market crashes. She's willing to talk, to plan, but without his engagement, I wonder how far this can go. And being in their mid-40s, time is definitely not on their side. But I care about them both. I respect their privacy, so I'm never aggressive or pushy. So I just wait for them to make the next move, give me a call back, ask more questions. But I would love to know what you might do in this situation, what advice you might give someone or maybe give me to coach them to help them move forward. Thanks a lot.

Please keep doing what you're doing. Mike, thank you for the question. And first of all, thank you for being so concerned about your friends and about spreading financial education. Because unfortunately, we live in a world where financial education is not taught in schools. Most of us don't grow up learning about how to manage money, learning how to invest. And so I love the fact that you are trying to spread financial education to the people that you care about. So big kudos to you for doing that. In this case, the fact that the two of them, that husband and wife, the fact that they have separate finances may work in their favor insofar as getting at least one spouse to start investing with.

with her money. And oftentimes, I'll dive into this a little bit more in a couple of minutes, but oftentimes when one spouse begins and then the other spouse over the span of a year or two can start to see results, that's what convinces the other spouse through observation to start becoming more interested and to go along. Let's back up and begin at the beginning. They've got separate finances, which means she has her own portion of money that she can invest. And as you mentioned in your voicemail, she's open to learning. And I get that she is nervous about the stock market. And this is where very conservative asset allocation comes in.

This is where investing in broad market index funds and not choosing individual stocks comes in. She's the type of person who, in order to get her started, will need a very conservative track. But you know what? Even a very conservative track is going to be better than keeping all of her money in cash. if she is open to learning, then by educating her and getting her started and putting a portion of her portfolio into conservatively allocated index funds, that right there will be the first domino that will eventually over time lead to her spouse seeing what's going on. He's going to watch it grow and he's even going to see some market cycles. where stocks dip, as they did in April, right? Stocks dip for a while and then they come back.

And he's going to see what happens to her money across that. And over time, see that it's not as scary as he believes that it is and become interested through that. Early in my career, I became a training manager for the company I was working at. And so I had to learn many basics of effective training. mechanisms. One big thing is you can't train people who don't want to be trained. You just can't. The harder you try to train that person to change something, they will become more and more and more resistant. And there's a lot of psychology involved in this. But the harder you knock down a door, the harder people are going to prop up the other side. So instead being inviting and open like you said and not being that way, Mike, I think is the first thing. thing that's in your favor. I think that's fantastic because if somebody doesn't want to learn, and it's frustrating because you're watching people make mistakes. I have people very close to me

that I'm watching make some pretty obvious mistakes. I've mentioned a few things without being judgy or, and we could talk about how to do this, but without being judgy or overtly forward, like I've just invited them to events. I've invited them to the events. I tried to get them involved in the community. I talk about how fun the people are, don't even really talk about their money. And if these people would just come into some of these, these cool meetups, they could be doing so much better. The one meetup they came to, by the way, they showed up at the very end. They were drunk. And they said, we got here after, quote, the boring part. We skipped, quote, the boring part, which was this wonderful discussion among really cool people, just about

normal people who are doing extraordinary things, which is part of what I find so cool about this community. So I love that. The fact that she isn't as resistant as him, Paula, I think you make a great point that that is definitely your in. Also, it doesn't have to be all or nothing. So in this case, we don't want perfect to be the enemy of better. One analogy that I really like that was helpful for me was this idea of the top of the mountain if you invest versus if you don't. If you don't invest, and I understand that you're afraid of the stock market, but let's just lead this to its conclusion. If you leave this money in cash, how much money do you have for retirement? Because you're going to have to save dollar for dollar every dollar you're going

to spend later. Right. And those dollars are going to wither away due to inflation. Yeah. And even in a high yield savings account, if you can just keep you. keep up with inflation. It still is so best case scenario than Paula to your point is dollar for dollar, right? That's best case. Right. And I love this idea of if you're afraid of the market today and you decide to do nothing. Now let's put yourself at 65 and you've done nothing. And that sadly is not the top of the mountain most people are looking for. And that, you know, there's the carrot and there's the stick and that is a little bit of the stick. But it truly is, I think motivational for a lot of people.

If I continue down this road that I'm going down, where does it lead? Where does this lead? And while it leads to safety, you're safely getting nowhere. What I would do when I was an advisor with someone who was hugely skittish, I would find an index that would give people some capital appreciation, but also even though it created more friction than I wanted, again, my goal is teaching. them and my goal is getting them comfortable, I would choose an index that paid a higher dividend. So maybe a large company value oriented index where we get some capital appreciation, but I'll tell

you what really calmed down, really nervous investors, Paula, was dividends. Is it because it's money now? Yeah, we could compare that money now to the money that's in that they're getting. from their money market. So I would take the dividend and I would compare it to the money in the money market. I'd say, guess what? This isn't the only way we're making money. We're also making money when the share price goes up. And sure, as you can see, it goes up sometimes. It goes down sometimes. But guess what we can do? We can take this dividend that's way higher than what you're earning in the money market. We can put that back in and have that reinvested. So even while the market goes down,

we're buying even more shares. I also, by the way, like following that to the logical conclusion. I like going into Morningstar and looking at what the top 20 holdings are in this fund and going through all the companies that they know. And then walking them through this, Paula, Paula, let's say that Coca-Cola, Intel, Nike, Walmart, Under Armour, Microsoft, Netflix, all go under. Let's say they all go under. Tell me about your savings account. About my savings account? Yeah. Do you think your savings account holds up in those economic conditions?

Like my cash savings account? My cash savings account. Yes. How come? Because the cash in that savings account is not exposed to the risk that comes with being a part owner of those companies. If I've lost one, two, three, four, five, six, seven of my top ten holdings, I would posit that the economy is so bad, there would be a huge run on the bank. And I have no idea how good your FDIC insurance actually is at that point.

Theoretically, it's good. But seven of the top 10 companies in your fund go under at the same time, I think you probably have to find a cave. And head for the woods, my friend, if that happens. Let's say the market crashes and it doesn't come back. What does that mean? What does that truly mean for the economy? So when you get down to the end of this index fund, we have two choices.

We believe the economy is going to continue, in which case the driver is going to be these companies that employ all these people continuing to stay in existence, or they don't, and we're in much, much, much, much bigger trouble. And I don't know about your savings account. Yeah, Joe, in my set of assumptions, the specific companies that you named all went under, but the rest of the companies all remained strong. Nvidia, Tesla, Bumble, you know. Coca-Cola goes under, but Bumble finds a way.

Right. The rest of the stuff. So in my imagination of that question, the remainder of the stock market all remains strong and then those end up, you know, Home Depot, right? Those end up becoming the big winners and taking the place of the losing companies, which is the whole purpose behind an index. fund. It's that you're not betting on, is Netflix going to survive or is Home Depot going to be the winner? You're buying a slice of everything so that no matter how it plays out, you're good.

Well, and look at this, Paula, that's an interesting discussion as well. My discussion was, if all these go under, these are representative of the economy, the economy is probably just completely tanked and let's go there. But if the economy hasn't completely tank, look at what happens. because we own the index, you're going to have this self-cleaning thing that all these are going to be replaced. So either way, going with the index is still the better way to go. If we just take these to the logical, you know what's wild is what we're doing here, Mike, is we're staring the fear in its face and we're calling out the fear. What are we afraid of? And let's walk through what we're really afraid of.

because if we're afraid of a stock market collapse, let's walk there. Let's go there. Let's talk about what would happen. Because I think all this becomes pretty educational. I think it also makes you a better investor, which is why you'll see times when the market takes big dips and you know, you'll hear from people in the afford anything audience that are out there trying to find money to buy more, right? Why do we buy more?

Because we know how to look fear in the face and give it a name. and stand up to it. I do like the idea, though, for her of starting small. And generally, and I understand that dividends create friction, which could be unnecessary. You know, if she does it inside of a Roth IRA, the dividend then doesn't matter, you know, because then we don't have the friction, meaning a tax that she has to pay on that dividend. Because for people that are new here, dividends you have to pay tax on, capital appreciation, you don't until you sell.

When you sell, you're going to pay a tax on the gain. but inside an IRA because it's a tax shelter, you're not going to have that tax. But I like the educational value of being able to circle back and say, look at this dividend, look at what you just made. By the way, Mike, this is a little advanced for your friend, but I just want to make a note here for everyone who's listening because we've had so many conversations in the past about asset allocation and how do you rebalance the assets in the taxable portion of your brokerage account? one thing that you can do is the dividends that are produced by stocks that are inside of the taxable portion of your brokerage account, don't reinvest those dividends. Just have those dividends pay into your checking account because, I mean, you're going to be paying taxes on them anyway because they're in your taxable brokerage account, right? So if you want to rebalance, have those dividends pay into a checking account and then use that money to buy assets of a different asset class inside of a

that taxable brokerage account as a method of rebalancing without having to sell a position. A few ways, too, that I thought of Paula to broach this topic. I really like the idea of using third parties instead of the two of you. Oh, I have this friend. Guess what she just did. She just did this incredible thing with the money. She bought this fund that pays dividends and buys large companies. I love the third party story. Oh, I was talking to so-and-so and they were so afraid of X, Y, Z, which was interesting because of whatever the thing is. I mean, that could obviously, if you're not careful, come across is a ploy to talk about uncomfortable stuff. But generally, I find that a good way to address people's fear without saying, you know,

this isn't something. If I said something to you, Paul, like, oh, you don't need to be afraid of that. Immediately for a lot of people, their defense mechanism comes up. Right. You know what I think is also an important part of the conversation? It's the thinking about how to think. It's knowing how to suss out good information from bad. Because often if you're a beginner in a space, you don't know enough to know what you don't know and you don't know how to differentiate an anecdote that points to some level of truth versus an anecdote that could really pull you off course. And so this is what I'm thinking about. Joe, you mentioned stories about friends. Well, if we're pulling anecdotes, case studies, I have a friend who put his entire IRA into just two individual stocks. Oh, boy. He did that in early 2024. So far, that has worked out extremely well for him. That is not an anecdote that I want to share.

It's not an anecdote that points to any level of, therefore, you should do that. Because there is a distinction between the soundness of a decision itself versus the outcome that that decision has produced. And what I mean by that is the following. Imagine two people, you know, Henry and Frank. Henry runs a red light and nothing bad happens. He doesn't get into a car accident. He doesn't get a ticket.

And he reaches his destination faster. So he made a bad decision that had a good outcome. Frank does not run the red light. Frank is a perfect driver. Obeys every traffic regulation, wonderful top-notch textbook driver. And yet, through no fault of his own, Frank gets into a car accident. Frank did all of the right things yet still had a negative outcome. Henry did the wrong thing, yet still had a positive outcome.

So how do we judge their decision making? Well, we have to judge their decision making based on the soundness of the decision itself and not based on the outcome. And the same is true in investing. And that's where the anecdotal case study gets a little fuzzy because I have a friend who put his entire IRA into two individual stocks, and so far has had a positive outcome, that's the equivalent of running a red light. Sure, the outcome for the moment may be positive, but if you continue to consistently run red lights, it's not going to work out for you.

And if this guy consistently keeps his IRA in just two individual stocks, there's a high probability that things are going to go really bad. And so I think a big part of financial education is probabilistic thinking. That is so difficult, by the way, because when you don't have a lot of information, the first thing you look at is the outcome. Right. Yeah. And that's what's so hard about it.

That's where you get the water cooler stories of my friend did this. And you get people who make really bad decisions because of some anecdotal case study that is really not representative of sound thinking and sound decision making. That's why I think so much of financial. education has to be that that metacognition, that thinking about how to think. I think judging the outcome is the reason why so many people have fallen for these scam crypto coins. Not the basic crypto coins that a bazillion people use, but the hot new coin.

The meme coins. The meme coin. Yeah. I mean, just look at the fart coin right now. Yeah. Or Haley Welch's coin. Oh, yeah. But Mike, I think in your conversations with your friend, if you lead with, I don't want to tell you what to do, I want to give you the tools to allow you to make your own decisions, the tools to allow you to have critical judgment and to be able to sniff out good advice from bad.

I think that might increase your friend's trust in what you say because it isn't just prescriptive. It isn't follow this because I said so, right? It is really empowering her to be able to separate the wheat from the chaff, to sniff out good advice from bad, to know which water cooler stories point to some kernel of wisdom and which water cooler stories are really bad decisions that might temporarily have good outcomes. And if you do that, if you empower people to think for themselves,

I think oftentimes people have a fear of getting scammed. and so the more that you can empower them to learn how to think critically about the advice that they're getting, the more confidence they'll have in being able to suss out what's a scam and what's not. Thank you, Mike, for the question. I hope that helped. Call back with an update. Let us know how it goes six months from now. Will your friend have moved her money into some assets that are more than just cash? We're going to take a moment to hear from the sponsors who make this show possible. And when we return, we're going to answer a question from Michael, who wants to know when market returns will start to matter more than his savings rate when it comes to growing his portfolio.

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Welcome back. Our next question comes from Michael. Hey, Paula and Joe, this is Michael, formerly from Illinois, now from New Mexico. I called it not that long ago to ask a question about rebalancing taxable brokerage accounts, and I thought I'd follow up with another little more technical question. Every month, at the end of the month, I write down my net worth. I then plug that into a running graph, I have just to see what the general trend of my change in net worth is. I've done this over about two years now. And the biggest thing I've noticed is that the biggest driver in my change in net worth month to month is the amount of money I'm physically putting in. And that trend right

now is still fairly linear of I save X amount. My net worth changes by X amount at the end of the month. And so I was just kind of wondering is when does my market return is going to start to overtake this graph and to make it start to look more exponential rather than linear. I don't know if you guys would be able to help provide any insights of that, but I thought it'd make for an interesting discussion, if nothing else. Michael, thanks for the question. And congrats on the move. I hope it was uneventful.

You're going to have some fun in the winter now in New Mexico. Well, it depends, I guess, Paul, on what part of New Mexico, because it can also be kind of cold in summers in Mexico now that I think about it. exactly, it's altitude. Yes, altitude and attitude. This is interesting. There is an actual reason, Paula, why we use the number 100,000 when it comes to your asset allocation. And people with less than 100,000, I very, very much like the total stock market index. The Vanguard total stock market index is one. Many different companies have them, but just pick an index like the total stock market index because exactly, Michael, what you're talking about, you putting money in

is the big time driver. But when you get to $100,000 and you have a 10% rate of return, that now produced $10,000 that year, a not insignificant sum. And for some people, for a lot of people, that's as much as you can put in or maybe even more than you can put in that given year. And if that's the case, now your returns have maybe equalled or are starting to really show up when it comes to that bottom line graph that you're looking at. Well, and I'll add to that because I'm sure I can hear people screaming at their device right now. 10% returns. That's crazy. All right. But let's go more conservative. You've got $100,000. You get $7,000. Still $7,000 a year. And what's the Roth IRA contribution limit if you're under, if you're 49 and under? It's $7,000. So let's say that your contributions annually is you max out your Roth IRA.

Great. That's seven grand. And your portfolio is also producing seven grand. That means your contributions are half of the new money going into your portfolio that year. So this is precisely why $100,000 for me has been the number where we begin getting more scientific because of the fact that, Michael, that's when you're going to really see your returns. start to weigh equally. And then as you get to 200 and 250,000, 300,000, way even heavier than the money that you're putting in. Right. And you know, the other way to math this out, because we don't know how much Michael is contributing, we could just take whatever number Michael is contributing and then ask

yourself that number, you know, if a portfolio were to generate 7% annual returns, how big would the portfolio have to be such that 7% of X equals Michael's contribution. Then the question becomes 21,000 is 7% of what? And it's 7% of 300,000. So Michael, if your contributions are 21,000 a year, then when your portfolio is 300,000, that means your contributions will be half. And the returns that your portfolio makes annually will be the other half. And then when you get above 300,000, that's when your returns will overtake your contributions. This is the reason why we focus so much on earning more first, and then second, controlling the controllables in your budget.

As second, I think if you are able to work on those two drivers, creating a nice big delta between the amount that's coming in the front door and the amount that you're spending and getting as much of that saved as possible, in the early days you're going to make life much, much simpler. in the future. Nick Majuli, who we've interviewed on both of our shows, he's the author of a book called The Wellflatter. And Michael, I would recommend listening to that interview because he talks about this same concept when he talks through the rungs of the wealth ladder. And one of the points that he makes is that as you ascend to a higher and higher portfolio balance, a higher and higher net worth,

your ability to move the ball based on your earnings becomes weaker and weaker. So let's say that you have a $1 million portfolio balance. Well, if you saved $100,000 a year, which is if you have a million dollar portfolio balance, $100,000 a year, that's 10% of your portfolio balance. but it's probably, I mean, your portfolio balance obviously is unrelated to your income. If you saved $100,000 a year, you would need a massive income to be able to do that. And yet, even with a savings rate of $100,000 a year, it would take you 23 years to drive that portfolio from $1 million up to $10 million to go from what Nick refers to as level three wealth

up to level for wealth. Now, that's assuming a 5% real rate of return. You can argue maybe that's too conservative, but even using more aggressive rates of returns, even at a savings rate of $100,000 a year, it could take, at a 7% rate, I think Nick has calculated that it would take 17 years. So when you get to higher and higher portfolio balances,

your ability to dramatically increase your portfolio balance based on contributions alone become smaller and smaller, which is to say, the bigger your portfolio balance, relatively speaking, the smaller of an impact your contributions will have,

unless you have just an exorbitantly high income and you can make some god-offering contributions. Exactly. But assuming that you're below the 95th percentile of income earners in the United States, let's say assuming that you're anywhere between the 50th percentile

to the 95th percentile of income earners in the U.S., the contributions that you could realistically make are going to be a lot smaller than the returns that that portfolio generates. That's when you hit a million or above, or as Nick calls it, level three wealth on the wealth ladder. But it's a great question. What so many people so often overlook is how big of an impact your contributions make, particularly at the beginning. And I, I see a lot of beginners. And Nick also talks about this, how when he was in his 20s, he would obsess over his investment selection.

He would obsess over his asset allocation. And he had a total portfolio balance of a few thousand dollars. He only realized later with hindsight that if he had spent that same amount of time, just putting in a few extra hours at work, he would have earned more at an hourly rate than the outcome that he got from tweaking his asset allocation to be just a little bit better. I also like this question too, because I know a lot of people get discouraged. Like, when am I actually going to see some market returns? When is this going to actually matter?

And you look at the bottom line, you go, okay, 10%, but yeah, that just doesn't feel like much money. Like, this is going to take forever. And it is amazing. And anybody who's been there will tell you when it speeds up, it speeds up. It speeds up. Like, not even a little. but you've got to get through the messy middle first, I think.

Right, right. Well, we'll go back to that portfolio balance of 300,000 at a 7% return. So you're making returns of 21,000 a year. Well, then the following year, your portfolio balance is 321,000, which means that next year, you're making returns of 22,470. And then the year after that, your balance is now at 343,000. And that's not counting any additional contributions. So you really start to see it speed up at that stage.

Just imagine, just around Paula, you're putting $20,000 in and your money's putting $20,000 in. Right. Like just hearing those words gets me excited. Yeah, exactly. It's like your money is a member of the household that has its, own income. And that was precisely the piece of rich dad, poor dad that got me excited. When I read the part that your money goes to work with the lunch pail every day you do, and even on days you decide you can't go or you can't go for whatever reason, you've got other things, your money still goes

with the lunch pail to work. I'm like, oh, that is great. I love that, that visual of my money going to work on behalf of me, building that mountain. So thank you, Michael, for the question. best of luck with turbocharging that growth in your portfolio. And remember, the more contributions that you put in, the faster you're going to get to that crossover point. Next, we turn our attention to housing and loans. Our next question comes from Alvaro. Hi, Paola. My name is Alvaro Ortega, and I've been a real estate investor probably for the past 15 years, both in Europe where I'm originally from and also in the U.S.

and I find the US to have a lot of tax advantages versus Europe. So I have a question regarding what should I do next with my personal situation? We have a house in Maine in a very nice location close to the ocean that we bought in 2020. We have been remod in the house for our own use, obviously, but we have like one acre land, which is very unusual, so close to the water. And I've been thinking about doing an ADU that pretty much will be paid borrowing a loan from a commercial bank and just use the ADU to rent it out as an Airbnb and also for family because we are thinking about increase in the family and our parents that are from Europe can to visit they can stay in the ADU. So that's one option. The other option that we have is since we need to increase the house, it will be just to do in addition to the existing house and add a few rooms, a few bedrooms that we need, and that way we can have family.

But that way, I cannot get a commercial loan because that will have to be a personal loan, a mortgage or an increment of the mortgage or a helo. But I already have a heloog that is pretty maximized, so I don't have enough to do that. anyway, I don't know what to do. I don't know waiting a little bit longer, saves some money or refinance other properties that I have and increase my existing home as part of the house with an addition or take advantage of doing a commercial loan and doing an ADU that at the end will be supporting the expansion or our needs as a family.

So hopefully you can give me some direction. here and see what is more financially, I don't want to say savvy, but what makes more sense right now to have my personal, let's say, loans increase or to put something in a commercial and take advantage of the commercial loan. Thank you. Alvaro, thank you for the question. I want to take this in a couple of different directions because I hear inside of this two different questions. I hear the question. Ooh, two people hear two questions each. Oh, is it four questions? They're the same two. I hear the question of ADU versus expansion for your family. Yep. And then I also

hear the question of commercial loan versus residential loan. And on that note, Paul, I also hear, I think I hear some bias. Ooh, okay, I'm curious to dig into this. I just get the vibe that he's biased toward the ADU, and he's biased away from adding on to his house. And I also got the vibe that he's biased toward the commercial loan versus financing it a different way. And to be clear, you mean bias, not in terms of, you mean it as a synonym for preference. Like, you feel like he's leaning in that. Yes.

I feel like that is the general direction. And he wants us to talk him out of it. Interesting. And by telling us to talk him out of it. I don't mean that literally. I mean, he's wondering if there's a mistake in his thinking. Right. Like, can it stress test? That's right. Can it stand up to a stress test? Can it stand up to if a person were to try to poke holes in it? Could it still withstand that? And that's a great way of assessing the viability of any decision. That's right. And the answer to that question, to preview my

answer to that question is, well, yes, I think it stress tests fine. I don't know that it has the intended outcome he's looking for. Okay. I'm very curious. So, Joe, we kind of read into this in a similar way, but we kind of read into this in different ways. I'm going to go through my answer very quickly, which is, Alvaro, I was surprised. Should we explain to people who are not real estate experts what an ADU is? Oh, yes. Let's do that. He used. the term ADU and you and I went, okay, yeah, uh-huh. And then I'm like, you know what? The average person probably is no idea what the heck he's talking about. That's a great point, Joe. It's like, wow, you've, you've been on the radio before. Might need to back this truck up slightly.

You've got some experience with this, man. Yes, and ADU is an accessory dwelling unit, which is a fancy way of saying it is an autonomous unit that is part of a home. So, So it could be an in-law suite. It could be a detached garage that is totally autonomous. It's got its own kitchen and bathroom and its own electrical unit even. So its own electric box, so you can go in the middle of the night. You know, if you pop a fuse or something, you can go to your own, your very own electric box. That is an ADU.

So think detached garage. Think basement or attic. but broadly think independent autonomous living unit that is part of a single family home property. In that way, it is comparable to, but technically different than a duplex. In some ways, the lived experience might be similar to living in a duplex, but the classification is different. And the reason why he can possibly get a commercial loan for this property versus an extension of his house is simply put, the extension of his house would be seen as a part of his

personal dwelling. And then the commercial loan would be very difficult to get. And he did to prove that this is commercial space versus a separate building that he's going to use primarily as an investment to Airbnb to rent out, then commercial loan becomes much easier to get. That was actually the part that I was going to talk about, Joe, because I was really surprised to hear him say commercial loan because it's generally difficult to get a commercial loan to build an ADU. Often ADUs are financed through residential loans, and typically they will come in one of four forms. It would either be a HELOC, a cash out refi, a home equity loan, or a construction loan. And so typically, ADUs are going to be financed based on one of those four types of loans.

So I was really surprised when he said commercial loan. Well, and the commercial loan, I don't think is going to give him what he's hoping for. And I think it is wrapped up in those results that you're talking about, Paula, because a lot of investors know that the commercial loan is not going to have anything, to my view, that is a plus over those four different types of loan options that you looked at. So even if he had it, even if he had the ability to get the commercial loan, which I do think would be easier on an ADU than on in addition to his house. I think most people opt against it because what's the upside?

And let me go over what the downside is. So the downside to a commercial loan is because it's not your primary property and because it's a business, the bank views that implicitly as more risk because you are not tied to it. Which, by the way, the reason why most business owners want a commercial loan, versus a personal loan is they don't want their money personally tied to this loan. If the business happens to go under, they don't want the bank coming after their personal assets. That, by the way, rarely happens until you reach a huge, huge number in terms of multiple of your business results. And so bad news number one is because the bank,

sees it as riskier, you will have a higher interest rate on that than you will on a personal loan. And then second, there is almost no bank that I know of that still isn't going to tie his personal assets to that loan anyway. So the commercial loan for me does nothing. I can't figure out what a commercial loan would do on a project of this size that one of your four options doesn't accomplish better. Well, so I have one hypothesis on that. And first of I want to say, I just want to put an asterisk here. I'm not fully convinced that this would even qualify for a commercial loan. It's just so rare for an ADU to be financed that way.

But let's just take that premise for the sake of going down this road. Let's just accept that premise that a commercial loan is an option, even if it were. So my hypothesis in terms of what the benefit would be is that his income would not be a factor when qualifying for the loan. So with a personal loan, right, there's the debt to income ratio that is going to be one of the first things that banks look at.

And so if his debt to income ratio is totally maxed out, then he might not qualify for a personal loan. Whereas with a commercial loan, because your own personal income is not a factor, the banks are going to be looking at the income that the asset can generate.

That's my hypothesis as to why this would be in play. Well, and I like the clue that he gave also is that he already has a sizable home equity line of credit and doesn't think that he could get more, which is also a flag about why he's maybe thinking that way. Yeah, exactly. So I'm guessing that his debt to income ratio is maxed out. Can't get a personal loan based on that. So then the option would be commercial loan.

I think it's very rare to do that on an ADU. Well, and I still think, Paula, he might be able to because what they'll do in the construction loan world is they will look at the increased value now of the property because of the construction and the bank will put a forward-looking number on that construction. So he may be more eligible for the construction loan than he thinks he is. It's just for one unit. It's very rare to do that on one unit. You know, if he were building or buying an eight-unit property, that would be a different story, but on a single unit that's just rarely in the cards. In any event, let's just run with the premise for the sake of fleshing out the question. So if we run with the premise that a construction

loan is a viable possibility, the benefit is that it would give him an option in a situation where his personal loans or his DTI is maxed out. It would give him that option. So it would be an available path. I see that as the primary benefit if we were to go down that road. The question in my mind, given the fact that the interest rate on that loan is going to be quite a bit higher,

the terms are going to be quite a bit more stringent, and then there are going to be construction costs. I want to know how all of that maths out and if the sum total would end up being cash flow positive or at a minimum cash flow neutral based on the rental value that that ADU could generate. Well, I think that is job one, right? Yeah.

I think job one is to begin with that math. And just to broaden this out for the entire audience, if you're wondering what those last set of sentences meant, in an environment where labor and materials are generally expensive, but particularly for new construction, where you have all permitting and site surveys and lots and lots of expenses that are associated with new construction that are not associated

with renovations, it's very, very hard to make new construction cash flow positive. And it was hard to do that even in the ZERP era when interest rates were low. It's going to be particularly difficult to do it now in a high interest rate environment with a commercial loan, which has even more stringent terms. So when you put those together, you know, the cost per square foot of new construction coupled with the financing considerations, I think it would be a challenge to get it cash flow positive if it was only one unit.

I mean, that being said, if we're talking about a multi-unit ADU, okay, that could work. I could see a multi-unit ADU working, but not every municipality is going to greenlight a multi-unit ADU. Most municipalities only greenlight ADUs as a single unit. Sure. Without approving an individual.

entire zoning change. Right. Exactly. Exactly. Because unfortunately, and this is part of why we have a housing supply crisis, most municipalities have very, very stringent restrictions when it comes to density and zoning and the regulations around it. Most municipalities have these nimbly protections in place where people don't want too much density in their neighborhoods. That's why there's a supply shortage. And so when you limit density and restrict construction to, one unit rather than two or three or four, you kind of hurt everyone. You make it harder for investors to be able to build a bunch of units that would be cash flow positive. And you make it harder for renters to rent because there are fewer units available and therefore every unit

that's on the market is more expensive. So it's simultaneously harder to be a landlord and harder to be a renter and harder to be a home buyer because of these municipal restrictions around density. So all of that's me on my soapbox when it comes to housing supply. But all of that said, generally, most locations are only going to permit an ADU as one single unit. And when you can only build one unit, it's very hard for new construction to be cash flow positive, given all of the costs associated with specifically with new construction. I do think the commercial loan is interesting. If he runs it separately as a business,

so he would need to have a separate business entity as the ADU, I think that would make it easier for a bank to accept that this is a commercial venture. And then he would need to have his business plan, and then he's going to work through all the math on whether this cash flows or not. even if he does get the commercial loan, I think it's a high enough interest rate. Making that cash flow positive is going to be possibly difficult. The thing that I find interesting is being close to the ocean, I wonder if it's a desirable property, though, where he can get a much higher rent because he's so close to the ocean.

I mean, he said very close to the ocean in Maine, I will be his renter. I'm there. Give me, give me that every October. I will be there. But is that year round or is, I mean, is this going to be a short-term rental or is this going to be a year-round? Well, and that's the other question. So I feel like there is a bunch of legwork that he would need to do before he does anything. And I don't want to discourage him from the legwork, but I think you begin with the probability of rents, how often will you be able to rent it?

And then, and especially if you've got family coming, if the family's coming at those most desirable times of the year, well, now, you know, if it's October. in Maine and Paula, that's when everybody wants to be there. And the rent is really good, but he has family coming from Europe on those same weekends. That's also going to change the game. So I don't know, but I feel like there is a clear path in terms of questions that he still needs to ask. Right. Yeah, in terms of the next due diligence steps. Yeah. And notice how Joe, neither you or I have eliminated the personal expenditure of adding on to his personal home for the sake of accommodating more family. I think that, that to me is a, it's not an investing question. It's just a straightforward. Do I want to make this personal expense or not?

Well, and then there's also the question, if he goes that route, is there still, you know, viability to Airbnb that property? Because it all depends on how he builds that addition, right? Right. And then I know, I've stayed in some Airbnbs where my, My landlord was either below me or above me was staying there at the same time I was staying there. Is he comfortable with that? I know some landlords are fine with that and others aren't. Well, so those are all of the due diligence questions that we have. I want to hear what he decides.

Yeah, same. Let us know. Please call us back. Yeah, let us know. Give us an update. So thank you, Alvro, for the question. We're going to take one final break to hear from the sponsors who make the show possible. And when we return, we have a couple.

we have a caller who's wondering if Joe has changed his tune on the Efficient Frontier. Oh, man. So that is up next. Welcome back. Our final question today comes from Jonathan. Hi. My name is Jonathan. I was just curious in terms of the Efficient Frontier.

I know this is a topic that Hugh and Joe have covered a lot on recent Q&A episodes in early 2025, given the subsequent episodes about Big Earn and Paul Merriman, and then your episode with J.L. Collins, I think frequently on those episodes with Joe, he would say that J.L. Collins speaks about the simple path to wealth, but would agree that it's worth moving to a two-fund or a forefront approach because at a certain point, it seems like that's not what J.L. Collins would recommend. And I'm just curious if Joe has changed his mind regarding the efficient frontier and the applicability of it to most people, DIY investors. Joe frequently says that he's open to change in his mind and hopefully I'm not miss speaking here,

but if people smarter than him, you know, push back and disagreeing, I think he's actually main check Big Earn as one of those smarter people. So interesting to hear if his changing and recommendations have changed as a result of the recent episodes. Thank you. Bye. I love this question. It's so fun. It's inside baseball.

I don't think we have time to even explain to people that are new to the show. What the hell is this even? Yeah. If you are a new listener and you didn't understand that question, we'll put some links in the show notes where you can go back and listen to previous episodes. Catch up. Yeah. And catch up.

There's so much that went into there. There's so much history that went into that question that if you're a brand new listener, if this is the first episode you've ever heard, We'll put links in the show notes so you can catch up on that history. I have learned over many years that there is often a difference between what you say and what people hear, which is fine. And I'm very happy to clarify exactly what I meant because there's so much cool stuff packed into Jonathan into your questions. Number one, I will always stand by the fact that I want to be the dumbest person in the room. And I love having my mind changed.

And over the years, my mind has changed on so many topics. And I hope that it will continue to change and evolve because I think that's part of having a growth mentality. I don't know what I don't know. And there's just a ton of stuff that I have no idea about. So when I have said in many places that J.L. Collins is an incredibly smart man that is true, and I believe that. When I have had the pleasure of talking to him on stacking Benjamins, I would consider him to be a friend, not a close friend. He knows that he and I disagree

about the long-term viability of having a single fund portfolio. But I have said on the main stage at economy and other public appearances, and here and on stacking Bejumans that J.L. Collins is a smart man, and he called his book the simple path to wealth, not the optimal path to wealth. Yeah. I say that often. It's a simple path, not the optimal path. And I believe that JL knows that. I have had long conversations about Jail that I've also been public about with a guy who I consider to be an equally good friend, Paul Merriman. I've spoken to Paul far more than I've spoken to Jail. And Paul has said that J.L. knows his audience very well. And he knows who he is speaking to. And J.L. also knows that a simple message is an easier message for people to consume. By the way, I don't know that J.L. would agree with any of this. So the one place where I will draw a line, Jonathan, and what you said, is that Jail Collins has never agreed with me. That changing at a hundred thousand. to be more scientific and to move more toward where I sit on the efficient frontier

or more where Paul Merriman sits, which is also on the efficient frontier. Or heck, let's add in Ray Dalio or Uncle Frank. We can add in a bunch of us. Frank Fasquez. Yes, Frank Fasquez, who we affectionately call Uncle Frank. Where we sit, I don't think J.L. Collins has ever agreed. So I have said that I think J.L. Collins is very smart. And he very smartly named his book something, but he didn't name it something else. But that is me. That is not jail agreeing with that statement in any way. So I haven't changed my mind because Paul Merriman is a guy who is a practitioner. And he managed money for people. He has seen what is more effective. And I think Paul Merriman's a smarter guy than me as well. And it's funny, when I went looking for the research, when I moved over from financial planning,

where I've always recommended people beyond the efficient frontier to the financial media side. And I saw that so many people were wrapped in the one fund approach or a very simplified approach to investing. I immediately was taken aback. And I thought, I'll go find the data. And so I started putting this data together myself. And in the course of trying to find the data myself, I tripped over Paul Merriman's research, who had already done all the research that I was setting out to do.

So I think that the proof is in the numbers. Now, to be clear, though, I only say that you're going to get further with the efficient frontier than you will with a one fund approach. I only say that because it resonates. I actually don't say it, Paula, because I think it's the key lesson. I think the key lesson and what I saw in practice was that when you design a portfolio that's more scientific and you spend a little time being thoughtful about your asset allocation when it goes against you. And this goes back to what Mike asked earlier about people that are afraid of the market. And people that are afraid of market crashes, everybody's afraid of market crashes.

So when you spend time designing your own portfolio, when the market does something that you didn't want it to do, I found in practice that you stuck by your asset allocation better. You didn't blow up your own portfolio. This is the reason why I don't love TargetApe funds. This is the reason why I like the efficient frontier. here. This is actually the reason why I don't even love people going with a Paul Merriman portfolio. It's not your portfolio. You're just glaming on to something that somebody else created and going, oh, so this is better. I'm going to do this one. And to me, that's like the fad diet thing,

right? I'm going to go with this one because it's better. Oh, that didn't work for me. So I'm going to go with this diet. That didn't work for me. So I'm going to go with that diet. I'm not looking for the new better widget. I'm looking for something that I understand enough that I don't blow it up. It's also the reason why I've also said out loud that I prefer a bucket strategy to a more fluid strategy when it comes to managing your money. Why? Because I saw in practice that when people had buckets, they got it. And when they got it, it was optimal enough that and scientific enough that it was a strategy that worked. But also, we didn't end up messing it up later on. We stuck by the strategy. When I got into podcasting, I remember,

and you do too, Paul, people always asking, what's the microphone that I should use? What's the technology I should use? And the best answer was always the one where people said, the one that will get you podcasting. Right. The one that won't create friction. Yeah, the one that will make you move. And the best asset allocation to me is the one that is going to give you throughput, that's going to get you efficiently toward your goal and you're not going to blow it up. Well, and I'm struck Joe by the fact that as we've talked about on a couple of previous episodes, when is it that we get the most calls, emails, DMs, when do we get the most interaction?

It's when the market drops. Early April 2025, when the market suddenly dropped, boom, we got flooded with emails, calls, DMs from people saying, what do I do? The market has tanked. My portfolio value is down. I'm scared. What should I do right now? And we see consistently over and over and over and over.

And Joe, I'm sure you saw this in your financial planning practice. And now we see it as members of the financial media. It's those moments of decline when your resolve in your financial plan really gets tested. And we saw it in financial forums. and it horrifies me every time. The worst question to ask is the one I see ask the most often, which is how do I respond to this? This happened in the market. How do I respond?

And the answer is, you don't. The answer is I have an investment policy statement that's based on my long time financial plan and my assets are a range based on that plan. And I have this machinery that I'm working. and I don't respond. If you're asking, how do I respond to this? Then we have to begin the process of re-engineering. So that's the J.L. Collins piece. Jail Collins, Jonathan, does not agree with me. He and I agree on 99.9% of life. His view on debt, his view on frugality, his view on don't make this difficult when you start out. I have this love affair with 99.9.5.000.

0.9% of what he talks about. And I have never heard Jail emphasize the long-term aspect of VTSAX. Even when I interviewed him on my show, you know, we talked about the fact that we disagree on this one sliver. But I still don't hear him really spend a lot of time and energy there. His time and energy is much more on don't make investing overly complicated. is my takeaway from the genius. I think that's Yale Collins. Let's talk about the second half of this, which was he said that Big Earn is someone that I would consider one of those smart people, and I definitely do. But I also want to be clear about my relationship with Carson Jusky.

The reason why I've brought up Big Earn in the past, and I know specifically how I bring him up, because I bring him up the same way every time, I believe you should have smart people in your corner. I believe you should surround yourself with these brilliant people and you are a result of these people. And for me, I've always pointed to Big Earn would be my perfect financial advisor if he were practicing. He would be the perfect financial advisor for me. But it's specifically for one reason, Jonathan, and this is the part that maybe I didn't make clear. It's because we vehemently disagree on just about everything. We disagree so much, but I know him very well. We'd laugh together. We've shared so many moments together. I love this man. I think he's brilliant. I love fighting with him.

And the thing that we do too often, we pick financial advisors. And this is why I brought up Big Earn specifically is because of the shock value. Why would I have somebody in my corner that I disagree with? Because he's freaking smart is all get out. And you know what? From the disagreements that I've had with Karsten, I come out smarter. And I hope that he does too. I want to surround myself with these people that make me rethink through all of my beliefs. And Karsten makes me think through all of my beliefs all the time. And wonderful guy, I think he has done phenomenal work in so many areas. But when it comes to the end of what do I do with my portfolio, I'm going to stick with the people that were practitioners. Big Earn has not been someone who managed money for lots of people and is

seen what works behaviorally and what doesn't. J.L. Collins, wonderful man, has not worked with a lot of people on managing money and has not seen this in the trenches viewpoint of what works behaviorally. That is the source of my disagreement with both of these people. And while I think they're brilliant, I don't think they're going to change my mind about when I think you should become more scientific. In that case, I'm going to go with the practitioner, Paul Merriman, who has done all of that work. Joe, I think you raise an important point when you say that the advisors in your corner should include advisors whose thought process you respect, but whose conclusion or outcomes are different from yours.

And this goes back to that same thing we were talking about earlier. There's a distinction between the decision-making process and the outcome. In this particular case, it's a decision, it's sort of adjacent to that. It's the distinction between the decision-making process and the conclusion. So you respect Big Erne, Kirst and Jessica. You respect his decision-making process and his thinking process, even though the conclusions that he has arrived at are very different from your own. And it is precisely because you respect his decision-making process so much that you would keep him as a trusted advisor.

Very trusted. Yeah, despite the differential in conclusion. Absolutely. And the reason I brought him up so many times is specifically to take this very narrow view that people have when they talk about financial advisors. And to help people see maybe a broader picture, you know, of what a true advisor means. I think we get caught up in, what do they charge? Are they a CFP? And I generally begin wider than that.

I'm definitely going to get to those questions, right? How do they charge me? What is their background? But I'm going to start with a much, much bigger view that I want to surround myself with really smart people with a different worldview of mine. But this is a great question, Jonathan. And I'm glad because Paula, if Jonathan heard me say that J.L. Collins and I agreed, then either I accidentally said it or a lot of times people here, you know, when we make a statement,

they infer things in that statement. So if I can clear that up, that's fantastic. And I know specifically, now, I don't know whether I said that he would agree with me. I hope I didn't. But when it comes to bigger. I know exactly what I said there. And I can see how that would be misinterpreted. And to be clear, it's not because Carston and I agree. Well, and I've even hosted on this show, and we'll link to this in the show notes, hosted a debate between Carston and Paul Merriman, where for like an hour and a half, they fought each other on whether or not you should have small caps in your portfolio, which is about as in the weeds of a debate as you can get.

Oh, in my eyes roll just imagining what Karsten said. But I think this draws attention to an important point, which is that in any field, there are highly respected people who have arrived at very different conclusions. You see that in the field of nutrition. You see it in medicine. you see it in education. You see it in pretty much every field that experts will arrive at a wide array of conclusions. But think about what we're truly disagreeing on.

You know, I think you have to be a certain level of in the weeds to even see where we disagree. Because where do people fail? The vast majority of people, not people in our community, but the vast majority of people fail. They don't save. they don't invest they don't look at their expenses and think about do I value this thing that I'm purchasing right these are the common mistakes that people make and everybody that we've talked about in this last question we all agree on those things we 100% agree on on that area it's when we get in the deep in the wish yeah and I've even said publicly are you going to

be okay if you just VTSAX and chill your entire life. Will you be okay? And you remember me saying this, Paul? I said, yes. Yeah, you'll be fine. Right. If you decide to go that way, you will be fine. Right. It's simple, but it's not optimal. Yeah. But it's good enough. It's just not optimal. It is. It is good enough. I believe you can do better. And I believe that doing better does not take a significant amount of time once you get to that portion of your financial plan. If you walk down the financial planning process and you get to the point where you're deciding whether I'm using one fund or four or five funds, you've already done 99% of heavy lifting. Why wouldn't I choose the five fund approach? Right. And I've talked about my own asset allocation on the show.

I have very much followed the polymer in four fund portfolio model, but even that I've modified slightly. And it's the modifications to me that are the important part because the modifications reflect your goals, your portion of the financial plan. Right. Instead of just the off-the-shelf directionally works for everybody, like throwing a dart. Right. It's the distinction between off-the-shelf versus bespoke. Yeah.

Yeah. So thank you, Jonathan, for the question. And thank you, Joe, for bringing this whole community into the efficient frontier. If we can create more money to help the community. communities around us get a small piece of the financial literacy that we have? I mean, that's a cool thing about Mike's question today, right? How do I help more people? Like, how great is that? If we can create more money that helps the people around us, the community, you know, on that end, not to belabor this point, but you and I were speaking before we turned

the microphones on that, I just got back from Northwest Arkansas. And you can see the work that Alice Walton has done and some other people in the Walton family with their wealth to make that community just unbelievably beautiful. Oh, it's so gorgeous. The art, the biking and walking trails, the concert venues, just the elementary schools. Yeah. The parks. The pathways. Just all of the things. They have clearly taken their billions and said, let's see if we can spread the love. Because for anyone living in northwest Arkansas, you all get to share in a piece of that. And having gone there just this last weekend and sharing in it was just a total joy. So if we can do some of that in areas that we care about, they're doing it based on what they care about.

But if our Ford anything community can make more money to make that happen, oh, man. Right. Exactly. And the difference between retiring with a $2 million portfolio versus retiring with a $4 million portfolio, could mean two million additional dollars for your community or for the causes that you care about. So exciting. Well, thank you to everyone who left a question. If you have any questions that you'd like to ask us, afford anything.com slash voicemail.

Joe, we've done it again. I can't believe it. And four instead of three. Four this time. Yes. This is fun. I love getting more voices on the show. Joe, where can people find you if they would like to know more about you, your thoughts, your ideas?

You can find me at the Stacking Benjamin's podcast every Monday, Wednesday, Friday. We call it the greatest money show in Earth because it is a variety show. It's a you can do it show. People always ask, you know, when's a great time to start with a podcast? Last week is a great time to start because we podcast new episodes for eight weeks. And then OG and Doug and I take a week off to plan, recuperate and get the next eight weeks ready. And so we had three episodes that were some of our greatest hits. Last Wednesday, I'll point to, we had a wonderful man, David Gergen on. David Gergen, if you're a newshound,

you know who he is. He served both Republican and Democrats in office, five different presidents he worked for. And David just died about six weeks ago. And so we wanted to kind of pay homage to just what a kick-ass individual he was. And I had a wonderful conversation with him about leadership. And I think, you know, you and I were just talking about this, Paula. If a higher net worth can help us be a better leader in our community, that's fantastic. But he dives into truly stacking more leadership, Benjamin's, and how we can do that in America. And it was a fascinating conversation we had with them just a couple of years ago. So we wanted to replay that to say farewell to a guy I thought was a phenomenal human being.

Wonderful. Well, Joe, thank you for joining us. And thanks to all of you for being part of the afforder community. If you enjoyed today's episode, please do three things. Share this with your friends, family, neighbors, coworkers with that couple that's in their mid-40s and they've got two kids and all of their money is and savings. Share this with them. With a guy delivering the Celsius. Yeah, let's hope it's not the batch that had to be recalled.

Or hope it is. Either way. Yes. You know what? I don't think I can beat that. So we're just going to leave it at, we're going to leave it at sharing it with your friends who have all of their money and savings. Or with the guy who delivers the recalled batch of Celsius. Stuck the landing.

Share this with them because that is the most important way that you spread the message of F-E-I-R-E. Also, open up your favorite podcast playing app. Hit the follow button while you're there. Please leave us up to a five-star review. These reviews are incredibly important at helping us bring on amazing guests and spread financial literacy and financial education, which is so critical and so life-changing. Finally, subscribe to our newsletter, Afford Anything.com slash newsletter for insights that you won't find anywhere else. Thank you again for tuning in. I'm Paula Pant.

I'm Joe Salci. and we'll meet you in the next episode.