Afford Anything - Q&A: The Goalposts Moved — Is That Actually a Problem?

Episode Date: May 26, 2026

#718: What happens when the financial strategy that once felt obvious suddenly becomes a lot more complicated? Les is approaching financial independence but has realized there’s one thing missing from the traditional FIRE equation: how do you continue meaningful charitable giving after you stop earning a paycheck? Jaime has built a sizable retirement portfolio, but now he’s wondering whether the complexity inside his 401(k) actually matters—or if he’s overthinking the mechanics of retirement accounts and Roth conversions. Tina has owned a successful rental property near the University of Central Florida for more than a decade, but changing market conditions and growing competition from corporate landlords are making them wonder whether it’s finally time to sell. We’re diving into all of that today, so let’s get started. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Joe, when you were a financial planner, did you see people's charitable giving strategies changed dramatically between when they were working and then when they were retired? No, I can't say that I did. Even though the income stream ceased. Yeah, I still didn't see a real change. In fact, maybe, it's interesting. The money flows seem to stay the same, but the time. spent helping the charity went up.

Okay. So donation stayed constant, but volunteer hours increased? Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. All right. Well, we're going to tackle a question about charitable giving in retirement. We're also going to answer.

I wonder why you asked. We're also going to answer a question about tax optimization and asset allocation inside of retirement accounts. And we're going to talk to a landlord in central Florida who is wondering how to deal with all of the new construction in that. market because that has put downward pressure on rental prices. All that in one episode. Welcome to the Afford Anything podcast, the show that knows you can afford anything,

not everything. This show covers five pillars, financial psychology, increasing your income, investing, real estate entrepreneurship, acronym Double I Fire. I'm your host, Paula Pant. I trained in economic reporting at Columbia. Every other episode, ish, we answer questions from you. And I do so with my buddy, the former financial planner, Joe Sal C. What's up, Joe?

Did you know, Paula, that I used to drive Uber? I did not know that. I did. I got tired of it, though. All the people talking behind my back. Nah. Come on, come on, people. And with that, we're going to go to our first question, which comes from less.

Hi, Paula. I have a philosophical question for you that does not really have a clear-cut answer. As I get closer to financial independence, I feel like the goal. post might be moving, not because of spending issues necessarily, but because of my wish for charitable giving in the future. I do have a current donor advice fund, as well as fund several 529 plans for family members. If I were to stop earning an income in the next five to 10 years, then those charitable contributions would necessarily have to stop, as I do not think I would be able to support my current lifestyle and continue the same amount of charitable giving.

This makes me think that I may want to continue some part-time work in order to fund those additional charitable expenses in the future, which are a personal goal of mine. How would you go about thinking about this and trying to balance this out with some financial freedom in the future? Thank you and appreciate your time. to win in. Les, thank you for the question. And I love that you are making charitable giving and funding 529 plans for your family, both.

I love that you're making that such a cornerstone of your priorities. So let's talk through a couple of different ways that you can continue making the charitable gifts that you are making, even in retirement. There are two models that I've seen. One is a model that was practiced by a person in the fire movement named Leaf Dahlene. He wrote a blog called Physician on Fire. He's a former anesthesiologist. He also had big charitable giving goals.

He worked until he hit his FI number or his fire number. And then he worked one additional year that was purely for the purpose of charitable giving. So his final year of work was purely a charitable giving year. And that allowed him to reach his giving goals. That's one possible model. The alternate model is what you said in your voicemail where you could continue to work part-time in retirement purely for the sake of charitable giving. And if you think about it, Joe, you know, you mentioned earlier that you often saw retirees, donations would stay consistent, but volunteer hours would rise. And there is certainly social and psychological benefit to contributing volunteer hours for the purposes of getting to know the people who are involved in a given organization, but from a purely economic perspective, particularly if you are a highly compensated worker, it often is more efficient, monetarily efficient to, rather than put in low-wage volunteer hours, put in high-wage

worker hours, and then dedicate that money towards giving, like from a, pure economic lens, that is the most economically efficient thing to do. I mean, that said, you do lose, there are social benefits, they're non-economic benefits to volunteering. Yeah, you just have a bigger shovel this way, you're saying. Yeah, exactly. So those are the two models that I've seen. One is the one dedicated year approach and the other is the part-time work approach. Well, I agree with less. There is no clear cut answer. I think another way to just think about this, Paula, is because, you know, he brought up how he thinks about this in terms of financial independence. And I think when you're making a decision like this, I was wondering

why Les would call him with a question like this. And for me, and this might not be the case, but for me, the real reason I thought that I would call a podcast asking this question is because maybe I feel a little hemmed in by the school. I want more flexibility. but at the same time, I really want to support these very important things in my life. But I think that's the nature of financial independence. It's really cool that you have the independence to be able to do this. And so if you're thinking about it in terms of affecting your financial independence, I think you're already there, which I think then instead of feeling hemmed in,

And this is really a freeing thing because now, instead of focusing on just you and what supports you, you have the ability and the wherewithal to be able to focus on others, which is a pretty badass place to be. Yeah. Yeah, I will say, you know, financial independence is not synonymous with retirement. It's synonymous with work optionality. In either model, if you're working one dedicated year for the purpose of giving, or if you're working part-time in retirement, either way, if the purpose of that is purely for charitable giving, then that is the very definition of work optionality. It is purely optional.

Yeah. So I find this to be exciting more than hemming him in. And the other way to think about this, and you touched on this, Paula, with your answer is, and I remember interviewing a very smart gentleman named Chris Field, who does a lot of work with nonprofit organizations and was saying that for many, when you talked about volunteering, for many people, if he has skills that are great for the organization, it might actually make sense to go the other way and use those skills to help the organization instead of the donation. I remember Chris saying, and I don't remember the exact quote, but saying something to me like, yeah, you know, somebody wants to give a hundred bucks, that's great. But if you're somebody who knows how to do social media, that is a skill

that we, you know, every nonprofit in the world wants and needs, the ability to get the word out. Or if you're somebody that knows AI or you're somebody who knows how to fix computers even, you know what I mean? Like some of these tasks that are somewhat specialized. can be worth much, much more than whatever equivalent amount of money that you give would be. Yeah, that's true. So I should amend my earlier statement. When I talk about volunteer work, it depends on the type of volunteer work that you're doing. It 100% depends.

Because there is rote work that's very plug-in-play that can be low value in terms of what it would cost to hire somebody to do equivalent work. But then there's also the opposite. There are also board seats that need to be filled. Yeah, if you've got some skill, I mean, that is huge. In fact, it's funny, that is my role with our local nonprofit is because I know how to talk to media. I know how to write press releases. I know how to be on camera. When we're getting ready for our big fundraiser, the half marathon, guess who does the Facebook

lives and the Instagram lives telling people about how the race is going to go? Guess who made all the videos of the race course for everybody? buddy. Like, that's, that's in my wheelhouse. It's super easy for me to do, but not easy for anybody else on our to do. The other piece of it, Les, when you're thinking about the money management angle, there are two ways in which you can build an endowment through which you can have an ongoing stream of income that you can use to, to distribute charitable funds every year. One is through a donor advised fund, as you know, the approach there would be to work until you hit some type of a funding goal inside of your donor advised fund. Just hypothetically, let's say that you want to put $200,000 into a donor advised fund and then at a 4% drawdown rate, that means you can distribute $8,000 a year to charity in perpetuity.

Right? That would be one approach. The other approach is that you can create a foundation. There are two types of foundations out there. There are foundations that are actively engaged in doing things. And there are foundations that exist primarily for the purpose of distribution of assets. And if you have a foundation that is formed for the purpose of distributing assets, then your role as the manager of this foundation will be,

exactly that to nurture the endowment very much in the same way that that all of us nurture our own portfolios manage the investment, manage the endowment, and then make distributions every year. And the IRS requires actually 5%. And they have specific guidelines and timelines for when those need to be made. But that's another approach. And what's nice about the foundation model is that you can get other people involved as well. Whereas a donor advised fund, you would largely be managing on your own. But either way, regardless of whether you choose donor advice fund or foundation, the common thread is that you are creating a base endowment and then making annual

distributions from that base endowment. And in that regard, it's pretty similar to building a retirement portfolio and then living off of that, right? What is a retirement portfolio? It's basically an endowment that you're building for yourself for the rest of your own life. That's a great strategy when you have this ongoing commitment to something in your community. But with these 529 plans, Paula, he definitely has a set timeframe for those. Right. And that's a very good point. Everything that I've talked about so far is assuming donations in perpetuity. But with the 529 plans, those are time bound. That's another part of the approach. Prioritize the 529 until that time bound designation is over until those kids go to college and then do those in series rather than in parallel.

Like an A, B. Yeah. But less to the philosophical part of your question when you asked how do we think about balancing financial independence with the desire to continue charitable giving, at a philosophical level, I would say, financial independence. is not the cessation of income producing activity. Financial independence is optionality. It's work optionality. If you do decide to take on some part-time work for the sake of continuing to give, I see that is fully aligned with being work optional. So thank you, Les, for the question.

Cheers to you for prioritizing this so highly. Yeah, absolutely. We're going to take a moment to hear from the sponsors who make this show possible. When we return, we're going to hear from Jamie. Jamie is 58 years old. Has a 401k worth about $1.5 million, but has some questions related to the way that his investments are split and tax treatment. And after that, at the end of the show, we're going to hear from a landlord in central Florida who's wondering how to deal with the changing market there. Both of those are coming up. Hey, y'all, it's Kelly Clarkson with Wayfair.

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Welcome back. Our next question comes from Jamie. Hi, Paula, and Joe. I'm 58 years old with a Vanguard 401k worth almost a million and a half, the third of which is in a Roth bucket, as I flipped over to doing that several years ago. The other two-thirds is traditional tax-deferred, but split into what shows as different sources.

An initial rollover for my previous employer, which is about 40%, my employer match, which is about 20%, and the other 5% is under a company base. I'm not quite sure where that came from, but I'm not asking either. My question is essentially, from a simplicity standpoint, if those three are all tax-deferred accounts anyway,

can or should I somehow combine those, and are there any advantages or disadvantage, of doing so. Or does that even matter? And should I just think about having tax deferred versus tax-free accounts? I currently split my contributions between Vanguard's total stock market index fund and the international version, 8020, and I've been meaning to push it to the efficient frontier. But when I look at my account summary and already see four sources times two funds, I wonder if I'll just be multiplying and complicating things if I further diversify. And if I want to initiate Roth conversions in the future, how do I manage that across those different sources,

or should I even care about that? In general, I've been pretty confident in my DIY skills to date, but I wonder if it's finally time for me to engage a professional financial advisor. I can discuss such questions and concerns with. So thanks for your no-nonsense, wisdom, and insights. Jamie, what a great, interesting question this is. For people that are just starting out, what happens is, as you know, Paula, people change jobs. Not only do they change employers, but things happen at work. And you've got different plans at work. You've got the Roth option, the traditional option. And depending on what stage of life you're at, you might choose one. You might choose the other. And so you accumulate this tax spaghetti of all these different sources. And then you

start thinking when you're trying to wrap it all up and make a plan like Jamie is, like, okay, how do I make this a cohesive thing? The good news is we can get you close to the efficient frontier, Jamie, and without a lot of worry. There's only one thing I want you to look at before we start talking strategy at all, because your question is about combining these. And it appears that you probably can. However, if any of this, especially that rollover portion, if that was all pre-tax money before, and the match is obviously pre-tax money, I'm not sure what the company base is, but we'll assume that that wasn't yours, wasn't put by you, so it would qualify as pre-tax money. Assuming those things, then you certainly can combine them.

you can think about them as one entity. And in the future, you could, after you leave employment, you could roll those over. Now, I would talk to a tax expert about that beforehand. I would have them go through your actual company documents to make sure. But it sure seems to me that if this was all pre-tax money before, and that's the only thing that we're looking for, well, then certainly you can put them all together and make it, make it an easier plan. But even if they're not, even if they're not, what I would often do, Paula, when I was a financial planner was, you'd have clients that would have five or six

different accounts and for whatever reason we couldn't combine them. So if anybody came along and they broke into my client's computer and they saw these different accounts, they would go, this is not diversified at all. Why is this one account all in small cap? And why is this account all in international. And this account is all large cap value because I'm not really worried about the individual account. Right. Yeah. It's overall asset location. You know, like you're going to, you're going to over concentrate specific accounts so that the overall big 30,000 foot view asset location makes sense. A hundred percent. And if I had a really bad 401K, my client had a horrible 401k. But let's say the international option was really good. I would,

then underweight international and everything else and have them contribute just to the one fund that didn't suck in their 401k or in some cases with the least sucky of all the funds, right? And this would happen sometimes especially with small employers where they, you know, just to be able to have a retirement fund for people to save into is something employers want to do. But for many reasons, those can be very expensive to administer. the cost on to the employee by having to use what's called an annuity-based plan. So the funds are all pretty high fee. So we would look at which fund can we use that does the least damage. I think you can look at it that way, Jamie. I think you can take these different pieces and begin lining

up. What percentage is close to where I need to be with large cap in general or large-cap value or whatever the asset allocation is that you're looking at and say, this fund is this piece, this fund is the other piece, this fund is the third thing. When you begin changing them over to Roth, that can create some changes only if it changes your distribution strategy. If your distribution strategy is to take money from this account first, this account second, this account third, based partially on the tax. of the account, then that might change your asset allocation sum. But if not, if it doesn't

change your withdrawal strategy, I don't know how much that's truly going to change the investment type that you're in. I think the other piece that's going on here is the cognitive overload that comes from when he logs into his accounts and he sees these bucketed as different sources. Yeah. It can create this overwhelm. Yeah. And so, feels messy. Right. And so sometimes I wonder if just running all of this through a different dashboard, whether it's one of those plug-and-play dashboards like Boldin or Projection Lab or even making your own spreadsheet, which you can do fairly easily with AI right now, making your own spreadsheet and just viewing it there, if that might make things feel cleaner, especially assuming that there's consistent tax treatment. Joe, what do you think about his question as to whether or not he needs a financial advisor?

I'm always curious as to what you'll say because as the former financial advisor, I realize there's a risk of, you know, asking a barber if you need a haircut. Yeah, but last week, I mean, when we talked about this, I was like, no. Yeah, yeah, last week you surprised me. Well, in this one, I think it could be an interesting discussion, but not because of the asset allocation piece. The asset allocation piece, I think, is fairly easy. and I think that being able to do that piece yourself makes sense. I think the fact that he's 58 and he might be beginning to look at how am I going to withdraw from these accounts.

And there are things coming up like Irma, which might affect his, you know, tax on his, on his Medicare, well, a quote tax on his Medicare. Yeah, part B and part D. Yeah. So he's got a few hurdles. and how much do I take and what's the timing on taking money out of these pre-tax accounts versus my Roth portion? Like how do I mix those up?

That's where a professional, because now the asset allocation needs to dovetail with the tax strategy and your lifestyle decisions. And also, you know, the biggest threat in any retirement is long-term care. How does that strategy fold in? if you're going to on one end self-insure, then you're going to have a bucket of money that you're going to save for, you know, later in life just in case you need help and you need a fund to pay for that help. Or are you going to buy insurance or, you know, for most people, it's going to be some type of a hybrid of those two, right? Somewhere on a sliding scale. So how do you dovetail that?

And that's going to be a function of his withdrawal strategy and how much money he wants to live on versus how much he's saved. That whole piece, the dovetailing of all these together is where a good financial planner who does this every day, you can benefit from that experience. The asset allocation, use AI and build one dashboard so it doesn't look like five accounts. It only looks like one. And you then piece it together in a way that makes sense. As I mentioned earlier, all my international in this one, all my large companies in this one, you don't need a financial planner for that.

either way, though, Pola, I would run what I said about combining these accounts if he wants to move them all into a rollover IRA later. I would just check with somebody who knows a little more than I do about the nature of the accounts of where this money came from. Don't take our word for it because we haven't seen any of the statements. We don't know anything about it. Check with a tax advisor on that before you make that move. because if there is any after-tax money there for whatever reason, it's going to create a

fricking mess. Right. That was me being very polite. Right. So essentially, if any of this was sourced from after-tax money, that's the biggest question mark slash red flag. Yeah. But Jamie, overall, I like that you want to add more diversification to your portfolio.

I think I like the direction of that question because adding even a little more diversification, right now you're in a two-fund portfolio, adding just a just. a couple more funds could really do a lot for your returns. So I like what you're thinking. I like the direction that it's going in. And overall, you've built a great tax triangle. You've got a good balance of tax deferred and Roth. You've done a great job of saving and investing. So congrats on what you've built. Yeah, it might not even be Paul about excess return. It might be about smoothing out the ride a little bit. Right. So thank you, Jamie, for the question. We're going to take one final break to hear from the sponsors who make this possible.

When we return, we're going to hear from someone who has a few rental properties in Florida. One in particular is located in an area where there's been a lot of construction. Therefore, rents have gone down. So what should she do? That's coming up next. Welcome back. Our final question today comes from Tina. Hey, Bolandjo.

I'm a current landlord in the central Florida area. I live in Orlando and have a rental property that we used to live in there for six years over by the University of Central Florida. And then we rented it out for the last 10 years. I've been a longtime listener, probably when you first started the podcast because it inspired us to be landlords here. We also have a short term or I guess a medium term rental in our backyard here, tiny house. and then we bought Ocala 3-2 in 2021, a house there. So the house by UCF is so bizarre because we have had such great luck with renting it out, with inquiries, with just maintenance and tenants over the years.

And recently our tenants moving out at the end of the month, so we've had it posted for the last like six weeks. and we have had zero bites. And of course, everything in Central Florida has changed. There's been so many units put up by UCF, put up downtown, put up all over the place, just sprawl happening. And we have a ton of corporate landlords that are now undercutting us in that neighborhood. So I'm just kind of wondering if maybe it is time to sell that property. As a long time, listener, I thought we would have it until literally the cows came home and, you know, we'd pass it to our kids because it's been such a fantastic asset. But at this point, I'm wondering if maybe we should do an exchange and buy two other properties in Ocala or somewhere else. So, yeah, I'd love to hear what your perspective is on that. As these little micro economies and, you know, rental markets, how do you move forward? You know, do we just kind of try to bring it down and match those corporate landlords and just say, hey, it is what it is? Or do we look elsewhere and all the work that comes around with,

selling and buying properties. Really appreciate your insight and I look forward to your response. Tina, thanks for the question. And this is far more a Paula question than a Joe question, except for one aspect, which I'd love to chime in on Paula and get your take on because while real estate is not my forte, marketing always has been something that I've been fairly good at. before you go and explore more expensive options, one thing I know about marketing is, is that it changes. And how you market things change over time. So while you might be being undercut, there may be a way to either make your product stand out in a crowded market, which you could explore first. there may be different places where you should be marketing and just the place where you're

marketing. If it were me, Paula, the only piece of this that I would feel competent helping Tina would be to say, let's look first at how you're marketing this thing and how we can either, A, make it stand out or B, is change the location so more people might see it. I agree. in fact, that was also... Wow, thank you. Okay, my work here's done. Paula agrees.

I'll see you guys next episode. That is one of the things I was going to say, you know, because oftentimes, and this can happen when you've owned a property for a while, you might be using the same photos that you used five, six, seven years ago. You're using the same written listing. And for a lot of people, they think, well, sure, why wouldn't I? Nothing's changed. And sure, maybe nothing about the property itself has changed.

But tastes have changed, especially now. You're competing with corporate landlords. They've got amenities. They've got an on-site gym. They've got a pickleball court. They've got this, that, and the other, right? You don't have that. But what you do have is X, Y, and Z. You've got maybe a better location. You've got better parking. You've got historic charm. Right. You want to be like rewriting the listing to respond to the new competition that's out there. First thing I would do, I agree, Joe, audit the way that you're marketing it. You know what? Here's another thing. A lot of people are now using photos that are digitally staged. Like you see this in a lot of listing photos. People are using AI to stage a listing photo. So for example, you know, you put a disclosure at the bottom that just says staged by AI.

But if you have a listing photo that is just an empty room, like you've got a photo of an empty bedroom. You've got a photo of an empty living room. Stage it. Use AI to digitally stage it, just like you would if you were selling a home. That can go a long way in just making your photos stand out. And put the little disclaimer at the bottom of the pictures, like staged by AI, for anybody who doesn't know what staging is. Staging is the act of placing things in a room that make the room look desirable to live in. So, for example, instead of an empty bedroom, it's a bedroom with a bed and a couple of bedside tables and some art on the walls and a nice rug, a bunch of those fluffy pillows that are like stacked on top of each other.

They're really impractical pillows that make it look nice. Impractical. Yeah. I think that every time Cheryl puts those on her bed. They're so impractical. Just so we can toss them to the side. Exactly. But, man, do they look great.

Exactly, exactly. And now, rather than having to physically go to your place and what a lot of stagers would do would be, because moving a mattress is a big pain in the butt, they would put in a bed frame, they would put in an air mattress, and then they would put sheets and blankets on that air mattress and then a bunch of pillows on it, take pictures, and boom, that's how you digitally stage it. You'd spend an afternoon doing it. that, right? Because you have to set it all up and then take it all down. Now you can digitally stage a photo. So the solution might be improving the listing in those ways. That might be part of it. I concur. I would also, you know, yes, you likely will have to lower the rent or maybe you already have. My question to you is, if you rerun the numbers on this property with that lower rent, what does that mean as far as the returns on the property pencils out? Let's say by virtue of lowering the rent, you can match your previous vacancy rate, right? Because vacancy and price always exist in a mutual tension with one another.

If you can lower the price point and by virtue of doing so equal your previous vacancy rate, what would that mean for your new net operating income? what's the new net operating income? What's the new cap rate? And how does that look relative to any other potential alternate property that you might purchase? Because if you were to 1031 this and buy, let's say, two additional homes, now you've got two sets of roofs, two sets of siding. What's going to be the cap rate on those two additional properties? I'm not convinced they would necessarily be better. They might be. I don't know. I think it's tempting to believe that 10-30-winning into something into the next thing that is further away from this competition

would yield better returns. I'm not convinced that that's necessarily the case. I would first focus on pricing strategy and marketing strategy around the asset that you have. I would do that first before looking into shedding the asset that you have. Because the thing is, right Right now, we know that you've gone six weeks with almost no interest and no leads. What we don't know is the answer to the question at today's prices and at today's rent and with today's new marketing standards, once we fixed the pricing and the marketing and the positioning and all of that, given today's set of data, would asset A be preferential? to asset B. That's the problem that you're trying to solve. That's the question you're trying to answer. And I think until you first focus on pricing and marketing and positioning, you're not going to know how to answer that. But I do understand the shock, like the emotional shock that

comes from owning an asset that was previously kind of a money printing machine and then reaching a point in market saturation where your money printing machine. is no longer, you know, you can't just turn on the money spigot, which you used to be able to do. And that, and that does come as a shock because you're like, oh, I have to be more efficient. Like, I have to up my game to get this to perform. I have to work twice as hard to get half the returns. Yeah, and it might not be twice as hard though, Paula. It might just be a simple adjustment.

Right, right. But yeah. I doubt it. Well, when you previously owned something that just that was such a money printing machine that it just kind of ran itself and you never really had to think about it. It's easy to believe, and I've certainly had that experience, and those are some good, good, good times. And it's easy to believe that that will continue to last forever. And then it does become a bit of a cold shower when you're like, oh, man, my money printing machine is broken. How do I fix it? Tina, the other

thing that I would be careful about is don't assume, you know, with the alternate properties that you're looking at don't assume that cheaper is necessarily better because it might be that the cap rate on alternate properties are not necessarily going to be an improvement. And maybe they will be, maybe they won't. But just because they're cheaper, that doesn't necessarily mean the returns are going to be better. And again, I think at this stage, comparing alternate investments seems a little premature because before we get to the step two of making comparisons to alternate investments, I think the step one is optimizing the investment that you hold because it's only once we've optimized your current investment that you can then see how well it's performing under

an optimal set of conditions and then you can use that as the baseline for step two comparison moving forward. So hang on to the property for now. rethink the pricing, rethink the marketing, both the composition of the marketing and the location and strategy, like where you're marketing, where those listings are appearing, how those listings are appearing, rethink all of that. And based on that, develop a set of numbers that will form your new baseline moving forward. And then you'll know how to make comparisons. So thank you, Tina, for the question. Call us back in a couple of months and let us know, what ends up happening? What do you end up pricing it as? How do you change the approach to positioning

this property? Call us back and give us an update. Joe, we've done it again. We did it. And I'm so glad that with all my real estate knowledge, I was able, Tina, to help you with that last question. You did. You hit on one of the most important pieces right up front. So nailed it. Well, thank you. Thank you very much. Joe, where can people find you if they would like to hear more of your wit and wisdom? I've got a great stacking Benjamin's episode that I think our community would really like. Coming out tomorrow, Simone Stolesoff joins us. The reason I wanted to talk to Simone, was because he dives into the one thing that we can be certain about right now with all the uncertainty in the United States, around the world, dealing with uncertainty and living in

uncertainty world and being not just okay with it, but thriving in a world of uncertainty. So he has studied all of the research on uncertainty and how our brain handles uncertainty and how to navigate uncertain conditions. So for a time like now, I think it's a, it is a conversation that we all need. So that's tomorrow on the Stecky Benjamin show, the greatest money show on Earth, which Paula, you know, we call it that because it can be a circus. A total circus. But that's what makes it so entertaining.

Yes. Thank you. All right. Well, that is on the stacking Benjamin's podcast available wherever finer podcasts are found. Meanwhile, if you enjoyed today's episode, please share this with friends, family, neighbors, colleagues, share it with your 401k administrator, your tenants in central Florida. Right. your friend who goes to UCF who's looking for a cool place to stay.

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