Afford Anything - Six Types of Financial Frenemies, with Mary Beth Storjohann

Episode Date: November 14, 2016

#51: Today's guest is Mary Beth Storjohann, CFP®, Founder of Workable Wealth, and author of the book Work Your Wealth. As I was reading through her book, one thing stuck out to me: the financial frenemies we all have, and how to deal with them in a constructive way.
 What's a financial frenemy? They're the people in your life that are sabotaging your efforts to improve your net worth. Sometimes they're friends, sometimes they're family, and other times, they might just be people that have no business asking about your financial situation in the first place. 
 Whoever they are, we've all known one at some point or another.
 In fact, I bet one of these sounds familiar:
 1. The Entitled Frenemy: "Can you spot me? I'll get you next time!" 2. The Budget-Buster: "You deserve it, you should buy it!" 3. The One-Upper: "You got a $1,000 bonus? Nice. I got a $10,000 bonus." 4. The Priers: "How much do you make?" "How much did you spend on that?" 5. The Green-Eyed Monster: "Must be nice that you can afford such a big house." 6. The FOMO Frenemy: "You can spend your money just this once!" Navigating conversations with these financial frenemies can be tough, but Mary Beth has some awesome advice on how to do it and not feel bad about your words.
 Even though it might sound scary, honesty is the best policy.
 While saying, "I don't feel comfortable answering that" means enduring a few moments of awkwardness, the alternative is answering truthfully and proceeding to wonder if your "friends" are judging you...every single time you interact with them.
 Finally, we need to realize that what they're saying isn't a reflection on us - it's a reflection on them. If they're jealous, feel the need to one-up you, or discourage you from your financial goals, that's on them, not you.
 Mary Beth offers other great tips on how to deal with financial frenemies in this episode, and we even role-played a scenario to give you a script to follow.
 Resources Mentioned: • Workable Wealth
 • “Work Your Wealth" on Amazon • Mary Beth's Twitter & Instagram
 Enjoy! -- Paula Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You can afford anything but not everything, and that's true not just of your money, but also your time, focus, energy, attention, any limited resource in your life. My name is Paula Pant, host of the Afford Anything podcast where we try to tackle how you should allocate those limited resources. How can you make better decisions that will lead to more self-improvement? Today, I've invited Mary Beth Storjahan onto the show. Mary Beth is a certified financial planner and the author of a book called Work Your Wealth. When I read through her book, one of the things that intrigued me the most was that she outlined six different types of financial frenemies, people in your life who might be sabotaging your efforts to improve your net worth. Financial frenemies, Mary Beth says, are often characterized by a few different types of statements. Number one, you've got the entitled frenemy, the people who say, oh, can you spot me?

I'll get you next time. the people who are always trying to borrow money from you or worse think that they deserve to reap the benefits of everything that you've earned. They think that you ought to cover the bills because you make more. She talks about how we can deal with that. Financial frenemy number two is the type of person who's always trying to throw you off budget. They're always trying to detract you from your goals by saying, oh, you should totally buy that. You deserve it. You can afford it.

Even if they know what your goals are, they try to push you off track. We discuss how to deal with them. Frenomy number three are the one-upers, the people who can't celebrate any of your successes because any time that you try to share a win with them, they'll one-up it. Oh, you got a $1,000 holiday bonus? That's nice. I got a $10,000 holiday bonus. Financial frenemy number four are the nosy people, the priors who are constantly asking you,

oh, how much do you make? How big is your bonus? How much do you pay for that? How much is your car worth? They just want to know every detail about your finances, even though you're not comfortable sharing those. And they won't leave you alone until they find out those details. In this interview, Mary Beth and I actually roleplay how to handle that type of frenemy.

Financial frenemy number five is the green-eyed monster, the people who are totally jealous of your success. Oh, must be nice. Must be nice that you can travel so much. much, must be nice that you can afford such a nice place to live. What they're really saying is that it's not nice at all. At least it's not nice for them. So how do you handle them? Should you kick them out of your life or not? We talk about that on the show. And we also talk about financial frenemy number six. The FOMO Frenemy, the people who try to appeal to your fear of missing out by saying, oh, come on, just this once. You can spend the money just this once. And, you know, really, you could take that either way. Either you can take this vacation with us just this once, or you can. You can take this vacation with us just this once. Or you can. You can. You can. You can. You you can loan me the money just this once. Whatever the situation is, these are the frenemies who say just this once. So, how do you deal with these financial frenemies?

Mary Beth and I tackle that right now. Mary Beth, how's it going? It's going great. How are you, Paula? I'm fantastic. So I wanted to talk to you about this awesome book that you wrote called Work Your Wealth because it covers a lot of the basic facts that if you master just these things, you'll more or less be okay.

Exactly. That was the whole point of writing the book was like, start here. Before you do anything, start here. All right. And a couple of things that I wanted to kind of go over. So first of all, when I read through this book, one thing that struck me was that, you know, initially it struck me as a little bit basic. But as I got deeper and deeper into it, particularly as you talked about estate planning

and life insurance and some of those topics that people don't like to think about, the concepts became, I don't want to say, basic might not be the right word. The concepts are like just the fundamental building blocks of like really taking care of your finances. I mean, tell me about what your goal is for this book. Who is this for? My whole premise with workable wealth and the book, Work Your Wealth is to make money, fun, accessible, relatable, and to break down the barriers. And so the goal was for this book to be basic. And what I found through my financial planning practice, workable wealth, was that I was getting people reaching out to me who had some, all of these basic questions, who wanted to schedule

consultations and have one-on-ones and figure out a plan around their own personal lives. But while I was building my business, I couldn't necessarily focus on the people who couldn't afford to pay me financial planning fees at that time. So the book developed as I was getting questions emailed to me as I was starting to turn people away. I was figuring out what the need was. And I wanted to have something that I could direct these people to. So it's directed towards a lot of women. I personally work with a lot of creative women as well, entrepreneurs. And so I wanted to give them something that they could start with in order to even just get comfortable thinking about their finances. So for us in the personal finance world, it's like money is my favorite topic. I could geek out.

We were just talking, you know, offline about how much of a nerd I am. Like I love carrying my financial calculator around with me. I can talk money all the time. But for a lot of people out there, it's such a taboo an uncomfortable topic, that my goal with this book was to give them a starting point. And so with work your wealth, I basically walk through, in a basic way, the process that I take my clients through to create a personal financial plan. So it starts with like the things like creating goals and then budgeting, debt pay down, it goes into like retirement planning, investing, and then, yeah, the stuff like estate planning. So it basically gives you a step by step building blocks to build your own financial plan. Now, I want to ask you about some of the more

intriguing concepts in this book, stuff that I haven't seen in a lot of other places. What is financial frenemies? Can you describe, first of all, to the listeners, what is a financial frenemy? So it could actually be your best friend. I call them financial frenemies, but these are the people that unknowingly can kind of throw you off course. So, you know, we all know what a frenemy is. It's somebody who acts like they're your friend and then, you know, can maybe talk about you behind your back and, um, might not, you know, keep your enemies closer. So that the financial frenemy is somebody who basically will say, oh, you know, can you spot me? I'll get you back next time, for example. So somebody

that's like constantly borrowing money, they're a really good friend. You love hanging out with them, but for some reason they never have money to like pay the bill. So that's somebody that can like derail your finances. And there's also, um, you should totally buy that. You should totally buy that. Yes. And how often do we do that though, especially as women? That's like the something that I, I, We always say, like, you totally deserve it. Like, have that extra glass of wine, have that, you know, treat yourself. Treat yourself as like one of the mantras of the millennial generation. And so, yeah, we encourage each other.

Like, you should, you totally deserve it. We say that without actually knowing what somebody's financial situation looks like. We don't know what their credit card balances are. So while you're trying to be supportive, you could actually be encouraging somebody to derail their financial plans. All right, let's actually go a little bit deeper into both of those examples. Let's go back to the, can you spot me, I'll get you, next time. What do you do if you have a friend who constantly says that or worse, if you have a relative

who constantly says that? Oh, so this is a big one. I think the biggest thing is you have to have the uncomfortable conversation. So if somebody's constantly asking you, like, can you spot me? There's a couple ways to address it. For example, with family. I always say, if you think that there's a family member that you're going to have to take care of, there's a couple things you can do. You can set up a separate account and start stashing away now and say, like, this is what I have to give you. this is how I can help you and this is what I can do. There's also, if you're going to loan somebody money, basically you have to be comfortable looking at it as a gift. That's like the big thing as well. You have to figure out how to put parameters around it. So you basically say if you don't have the money,

you got to be honest. I don't have the money right now and I have my own financial goals I'm working towards. So while I'd love to spot you, just know that I'm working toward like X, Y, and Z over here. And unfortunately, I can't help you out anymore. And if you're trying to get money back, that's even more difficult because if you haven't set parameters up front with like the spotting being you know spotting somebody money it can get really icky so before you even go down the road of loaning money before you hand over the 20 bucks or pay for somebody set parameters like you got to pay me back by Friday you got to pay me back like tonight when you get home and find your wallet or whatever it is those are there's ways to have the conversation but you can just put it back on you

and one of the things that I always say is if you don't have a financial planner blame your imaginary financial planner, but say my financial planner said I shouldn't know family or friends money. Like, pick somebody imaginary that you can blame it on to take the blame off yourself if you're not comfortable. Right. I like the idea of blaming an external third party, one who isn't related or who isn't part of a mutual friend, because, you know, we didn't, we didn't interview with a financial planner who works with big celebrities, like athletes and music industry celebrities. And he gave his clients the same advice because everybody, knows that those people are, or at least their friends know that those people have a high net worth.

So they couldn't use the excuse of, I don't have the money. And I mean, I found even in my own life, I've been in that situation several times where friends and worse relatives will say, like, well, we know you're doing well, can't you just give me a thousand bucks? Yeah, right? Like, you don't have your other goals you're working towards. Like, what does well mean to people? That's the whole another conversation. Yeah, exactly, exactly. And then they take offense to the fact that you don't give them money. Like there's a bit of a sense of entitlement that they have. You're doing well, therefore you should give some of that to me. Yes, exactly. I very much remember a conversation I had in my early 20s. There was a friend that was hanging out in my group and she basically

implied that because I had the best job in the group, I should be paying for everybody else. I remember. What did you say? Oh, I lost it. I was in my early 20s. is I've lost it because somebody has always been such a sensitive topic to me. I work so hard. And so I I'm sure I didn't say some nice words. But I basically explained, you know, I work really hard for my money. I've worked really hard to get where I am. And just because I'm in a different place and it doesn't mean that you shouldn't have to work hard for what you do as well. I've always felt that you are in control of your own destiny. And so you create your own opportunities. You create your own relationships. You follow through. I think a lot of people are able to be successful if they want to be.

So I kind of directed the conversation that route. But yeah, for the third party, I use that a lot for my clients, basically, as they're going through trying to make these decisions, I usually say, like, yeah, feel free to blame it on me as your financial planner. It's my fault. You're not telling them no, I am, and they don't know me. And they can follow up with me if they have a problem. But I do think it's redirecting the conversations and it is figuring out a way to be comfortable

when it comes to somebody who's asking you for money because it is very easy to let those situations spiral out of control. $100 here, $100 there, but it's the same way as you're trying to work in some other expenses. Like, where are you going to cut back to make that happen? Is that a priority to you to have somebody else be able to either dine out or, you know, pay off their debt that they're probably going to get back into all over again? Those are the questions you have to ask yourself before handing over the money. Right. Okay, so blaming a third party, like blaming your imaginary financial planner, that might be effective if somebody's asking to borrow a significant

some of money, $500 or $1,000 or $2,000. But what about something like, can you spot me 20 bucks for this dinner? You can't really blame a financial planner on that. What do you do in that situation? So it depends on the frequency. If it's the first time somebody's asking you and you're in a bind, you can basically set the standard, say, I'm happy to do it this time, as long as you can be back Friday. Unfortunately, you know, my situation does allow me to do this very often. Like lay the stage immediately, basically saying that, you know, this one time you can do it, but going forward you won't be able to just as a heads up. So you can cut it right there. And when they do come back, you'll have already laid out that it's a no going forward. So it'll be

easier to reinforce that no. If it is happening repetitively, then it's, again, it's unfortunately you have to have that uncomfortable conversation around like, hey, I've got my own goals that I'm trying to work towards. And you haven't paid me back from X, Y, and Z. So those are the things that you can fall back on as well. But you have your own goals. You're trying to like, say, bulk up your savings for retirement or take this trip. Unfortunately, you can't spot them because of these things. So typically it's figuring out also if you're trying to help somebody else improve their habits. So if they're borrowing from you and not paying you back, that's definitely a cause for, you know, squashing it right away. But if they're borrowing you and then paying you back two weeks later and

it's just like a cycle that keeps going, then you just maybe help them to set better structure around their habits just saying, you know, I notice you're playing a game of catch up, but you're going out you don't have the money. Maybe we can sit down and do some like budgeting. I'm happy to help you or give you some articles or blogs to check out. You can be that encouraging person as well as opposed to like doing the finger wagging. Let's move on to the next one. The you should totally buy that. You deserve it. How do you respond to that when somebody says that to you? So a couple things. If you're looking for somebody to encourage, if you're already saying like I really want that and they're saying you should totally buy it, you're almost like adding that other voice in there that's like,

extra little like devil and angel on the shoulders, right? You're adding in an extra little devil on the shoulder that you already know shouldn't be there. Right. If you already know you don't have the money, you're you're making the case against your finances even worse for yourself. So I think it's really interesting. So if you egg on that statement, then you're just, you're telling them that that's what you want to hear. Yes, exactly. So figure out where you're coming from in that stance. If you're seeking out that statement, you already have your own financial issues to work on. So one of the things that you might do if you have a couple friends that you reach out to and say, hey, I really want to buy this. You know, and that happens on an ongoing basis. Let those friends know, say, hey, I'm likely

going to want to buy things, but I'm working towards these financial goals. So if I'm telling you that I want to buy something, can you just remind me that I'm working towards like this taking this trip or I'm working towards paying off this credit card or building up my emergency fund right now? And instead of buying that, maybe I should, you know, focus on these other things or buy it as a way to celebrate my wins when I reach these other goals, whatever it is. Set up your friends for a response, a canned response they should give you if you go to them seeking their approval or input on things that you should buy. That way you can almost do like an accountability and teamwork thing as opposed to getting that egging on. So I think that's one way to address that if you're the kind

of person who's seeking it out. But if there's somebody there encouraging you to buy things when you're not necessarily seeking that out, then it's a matter of basically saying, stepping back. Either way, stepping back and saying, you know what, I'm going to give myself a 24-hour cooling off period. I'm going to evaluate, hey, if I do want to buy this thing, it's not that I can't right now. It's that I need to find out where I'm willing to make those adjustments to my finances to fit in this expense. So if I'm going to buy this new purse or I'm going to take this last minute trip, what am I going to adjust and what am I willing to adjust to fit this in? Am I willing to not dine out for the next couple of months so I can free up this cash flow or whatever it is, you need to figure out the adjustments

to make before you actually buy something because you quote-unquote deserve it. Right. So it's not, this isn't necessarily a conversation that you need to have with the person who is encouraging you to spend more. It's more of a kind of an internal working through for yourself. Yes, an internal dialogue you need to have. And being aware of us, the biggest thing that you can do is set yourself up, though. Again, if you're finding that you are going out to seek that input from somebody else is to let them know what you're working towards. But it's mostly internal on that one because you have to be prepared for how you'll respond and take it on. Let's move on to the next statement that financial frenemies often make, which is statements that

one-up you. Like if you tell them that you got some kind of a raise, they'll say, oh, well, I got an even bigger raise. Yes. Those are the one-upers, basically. Like you got, oh, your boss gave you a hundred gift card for the holidays. Oh, I got a $2,000 bonus. Oh, but that's so great. You know, so somebody who's constantly, you're feeling like you're really appreciated and like you scored, but somebody comes along basically to want up you. And it kind of like bursts your bubble and it's hard to snap out of. Why do people do that? The bubble bursters do that to make themselves feel better, basically. It's, that's an attention thing. It's a validation thing. And that's where, again, it's financial frenemies, unfortunately, it's all about tackling the uncomfortable conversations that you might have to have with those people you actually are close to in your life. But a lot of people say those things because they're looking for their own validation as well. They're trying to celebrate, but somehow they're also stepping on somebody else's achievements also at the same time. And so it's teaching and reframing so that these people can actually celebrate themselves, but also celebrate other people in their wins as well.

Do you think frenemies understand that that's what they're doing? Like, are people aware that they are putting down others to bring themselves up? I think generally they don't, but there are those people out there that we shouldn't be your friends, but are. So I think there is that breed that generally, that yes, we'll one up you and make you. And there's those tox, that's like a toxic friend. That's a toxic person actually who's in your life who's putting you down, stepping on you to make themselves feel better. And when they're intentionally doing it, that's toxic. You should kick that person out of your life. But for the most part, people don't know when they're doing it. And they may not even know how sensitive you are to it by no means. Like that's not even sensitive if you're if somebody else is coming up in, you know, one-upping you. But I think a lot of people mostly do it when they're not aware of it, I would say. Okay. And I just, that's the benefit of the doubt, hoping that most people are genuinely good. So if you have a financial frenemy who's constantly one-upping you, how do you deal with that person? That's when you basically have to take pause, have to have the uncomfortable conversation. And so we talk about conversations. There's also ways depending, you can send emails these days. You can also do texts. Whatever way is best for you actually express to yourself.

but just let them know that, you know, that you are super proud of them for all that they have accomplished. You are really impressed by the work that they do. They're really impressed by like the things they have in their life with experiences they have, whatever it is. Like paint them like you're so happy for everything going on for them. Valid them. Valid them. Exactly. Because that's basically what they've been looking for. And then and then turn the tables back on you though and say, however, you know, I just want you to know that I feel like I've worked really hard as well. And, you know, my achievements might not be as, you know, big as yours in certain ways. or I might not get as much as you, but I would love for my time to shine as well. I would love for my time to celebrate.

And I feel like I deserve to celebrate because I also work hard and I've achieved these things. So going forward, if you could just take pause, when I do share these small ones with you, because I want to share them with you because you are my friend and I want to celebrate with you, if you can just remember to take a moment for me to celebrate with me and put you on the back burner a little bit. It doesn't have to be long term, but just during that moment to remember that I'm celebrating my experiences with you. should you share your wins with that person? It's hard. It depends on how close you are with the person. It depends on if you're able to have that conversation. So again, so if you get to the point where you don't want to share your wins with

this friend and you're feeling like it's constantly, you're constantly being one-uped, then you have a choice to make, right? You have the choice of, okay, well, do I want to keep this person in my life and how much do I actually value this relationship? If I can't share some of my wins with them, you know, is a truly a valuable friendship? what else am I getting from it if I need to hold back on this part of my life? So there's that question to ask, and is it, is the relationship easy to maintain without, with you withholding things that you want to celebrate? And then if it is, then go forward.

If it's not, then you basically have the tough conversation. And if you find that, hey, that they're actually just not worth it all together, then you walk away. Right. So I think it's just making the tough, the choices of, you know, keep the relationship, don't share. What will that relationship be like? Have the tough conversation. It could be awkward for a couple of weeks or a little bit longer, but at least you put yourself out there and stuck up for yourself and then you move forward from it, hopefully in an

improved state, or you get really resentful and maybe just walk away from the whole thing because you don't think this person will change. And that third option, the getting resentful and walking away seems like the least healthy of the three choices. Because again, with this money topic, money is so uncomfortable for a lot of people. It's such a really hard topic to bring up with our spouses, our family. A lot of women don't feel comfortable asking for raises. There's so much taboo around money. So I would always encourage just get comfortable having that conversation to get comfortable, especially with your friends, being able to ask for what you want when it comes to feeling good about your finances. Because if you can't get comfortable with those people that are

supposed to be your friends, how are you going to get comfortable with a spouse or a partner or a boss? Those are all things that will impact you. So if you can start at least sticking up for yourself to your friends around your finances, that will set the stage for a better financial future. Should your approach be different if the person occupies a relationship that you cannot walk away from, like a sibling? Ooh, so the approach should be different. Yes, I would say if this person, again, is almost getting, you're almost sharing and they're constantly spinning, I think, or they're going to feel resentful from one of the winds, or if there's like already some under level, underlying kind of tension there, then yes, I think it should be different. But ultimately, again, like some people are some like sisters or brothers, but those are like their best friends. So there shouldn't be. anything there, but if you're sensing that you're sharing and somebody's constantly one-uping you and it's a sibling, then stop sharing. I would say stop sharing. Because that's bringing up something for them. And again, so you can either, again, you can address it and see how that goes,

which that's an option as well if you haven't addressed it yet. You can address it. And then if it doesn't change, they're stuck in your life, then stop sharing, basically. Either way, you don't want to just, if you stop sharing, it's a sibling, I think that resentment could still stay because you've changed yourself without them knowing how you feel. So you're almost like taking that on and carrying that burden. But if you address it in like a calm manner and it still doesn't change, then it's time to keep things to yourself. See, what fascinates me about this conversation that we're having about frenemies is that it's hybrid financial advice and communication, social interaction advice. Oh, yeah, it's like the psychology of money that comes into play. There's a lot of

behavioral finance here and a lot of things that we don't even consider. or know that we do in our own habits. And so even writing this, and I wrote in the book, too, like, I'm totally guilty of telling my friends, like, you deserve that. You deserve, you know, you deserve better a boyfriend, better, you deserve more money. You know, we don't even realize the things that we're doing. And it is, it's behavioral. Have you ever thought to yourself?

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Oh my gosh, yes. I'm laughing at this one because I'm full Italian. And like everybody wants to know, like, and it's almost like a proud thing. They wanted like, how much you pay for that? Like, did you get a deal? You know, like it's like that, so it's really interesting. Some people ask because they either want to, they really want to be impressed by how much money you've spent or they want to be impressed by how much money you've saved. So it's, yeah, there's really prying questions that can come from family.

And yeah, your family can definitely be your financial frenemies. And I'm sure, you know, one of the things that I talk about, I think in this book too and in some of my work is money scripts. You know, the way that we, we have these preconceived notions. and beliefs around money in our own lives anyways because of how our family handled finances as we were growing up and the things that we were exposed to. So you might not even know that your family's your financial fund of means or you might already know that it was such a toxic relationship and you carry that and you have anxiety around money because the way it was handled. So family can shape these things. But it's usually a lot of the times it's family that's asking for how much money are you making.

How much money did you spend on that car, on that dress, on that purse, all of those things. So how do you actually let's role play that? Mary Beth, that's a nice purse. How much did that cost? Thanks. I'm really excited. I bought it. I actually got it at Nordstrom's, and it was a way that I was able to celebrate myself, and I've been doing really well in business, so it was a win. Cool. But how much was it? Actually, I got it on sale. For how much? You know, I'm uncomfortable sharing that right now, but know that it was just something that I purchased for myself and that I wanted for a while, and I set a goal to purchase it, and I did. Oh, interesting. So, okay, so what fascinates me about your answer is that you, the brutal honesty of saying, I'm uncomfortable sharing that. Right. Because how do you respond to that? Exactly. Somebody will usually say, oh, sorry, but they won't ask you. Right. Right. Because if you dodge the question, people can try to work around the dodge. Yep. But if you flat out say, hey, I'm uncomfortable sharing that. Yeah. It's a bit of a conversation enter. I can't think of any way to get around that.

Yep. Yeah, I mean, you almost have to squash it because you're going to feel uncomfortable, right? Because imagine you either squash it and you feel a little guilty for squashing the conversation. It's a little tense maybe for a few minutes. Or you share the number for your salary, your raise, what you spent on your purse, and then you question it for hours on end. Like, are they judging me? Was it too much?

Should I have not told them? What are they thinking about me now? Do they think I make more than I am? Like, do they think I spent too much on it? Because those are the questions that can spiral when you share something. you don't feel comfortable sharing. So I pick two minutes of awkwardness over divulging the information and then questioning myself for hours on end. Interesting. Interesting. Yeah, I think it could be even harder to do with family. But I think one of those things is just it's getting comfortable saying,

like, don't worry about it. I'm okay. You know, like, you know, if your family's asking you, and you know, like, are they asking you because they want to be impressed? Are they asking you because they're worried about your spending habits? You know, if that's the case, you know, we kind of probably know your family's intentions and you can say like, hey, don't worry about it. I've got money to cover this or I've got money in the bank and, you know, don't worry about me. Like, you know, I've got it under control, that sort of thing. You can, you can deflect it that way if there's like worrying parents involved that are trying to figure out what you're doing. What about when it's a complete stranger? I've had that happen sometimes when I'm traveling. Um, and people,

uh, this will often happen in foreign countries where people just flat out say like, how much do you make? Yeah. That does happen a lot. It depends on culture. I mean, again, it's just going the uncomfortable route, just saying, you know, I actually don't discuss my salary with anybody aside from like my significant other and my financial plan or whatever it is. Just going again, saying I'm uncomfortable talking about it. That's the one where you have to get really comfortable because really comfortable saying no. And again, it's saying no with confidence. It's for your own benefit.

And we often feel so put on the spot in those situations again. But you're, by you sharing, by you putting yourself out there, you know they're playing a game, right? you're by sharing the number, like, how much do you make? A lot of people ask that. And then you're like, you're setting yourself up to be judged right away. You didn't even go into the conversation that way. Somebody's like, oh, how much do you make? You're going to share like, if it's like 75, 80, whatever it is. And then you're like, they're basically measuring you up. They want to know so they can measure you up. So you're playing into somebody else's game when you answer that question. And it's a game you don't want to play. So don't play it. So, but again, it's just, again,

shutting it down with the actually I'm not comfortable sharing that number. I only share it with these select people or whatever it is. Practicing an answer to that one is huge. Like, that's a huge one to just get comfortable saying no to over and over again because people will pry and will ask. And that, you know, there might actually be value to role playing. I know you and I just did it spontaneously, but now as I think about this question a little bit more, I remember that the last time that a stranger asked me that question, it happened right here in Vegas. It was at a bar. I was talking to a guy and he was like, what do you do for a living. And I said, I'm a blogger and podcaster. He kind of gave me this incredulous look. Like,

can you really make money at that? You know, was kind of the expression on his face. And so the next words out of his mouth were, well, how much do you make? And so I said six figures, because I don't want to give an exact amount, but I'm comfortable giving, you know, a benchmark range. And he looked surprised. And then the next thing that he said was, oh, I bet you just flash your boobs all over the internet. Oh, yeah. Oh, my God. I was so mad. Yeah. And those are the, oh, so we can talk about whole other men's issues and women's issues. And that's a derail. But yeah, that stuff like that, that, like, you almost set yourself up, right? They're asking you the question. That's the front of me. Somebody's asking the intention with their reaction already in mind, right? They're already making

all of these assumptions about you. So when a stranger is asking you how much money you're making, they already have these preconceived notions, they already have these perceptions, they're already building out this like imaginary you that doesn't even exist. So by you giving them that intimate information, they're either validating their imaginary beliefs about you or that you're giving them another platform to turn on. But there's not necessarily a benefit to that. So yeah, by role-playing, you know, practicing, saying no to, you know, your significant other or friend or whoever it is, the same way that you would, you should rule play like negotiating a raise. It will help you to get more comfortable sticking up for yourself around your finances because these are the things that

can sabotage you, like just on the emotional psychological side of things. And when you let somebody in, like, who can say something just like that, right? It almost goes down a path that you didn't even need to go down. You had no intention to be going down that path, and somebody else can totally veer you off course around, you know, being proud of your financial goals and what you've done, and then somebody can come in and just open the door and say, well, I bet you that's how you make all your money. Exactly. And never mind all the part you do.

And I realized afterwards that I'd put myself into a lose-lose. If I had quoted a low number, then he would have said, well, clearly you're not doing well. And if I quoted a high number, then he found a different way to cut it down. Exactly. I mean, so all you have to say if you want to say anything at all is I make enough to support my lifestyle. That's about it. I mean, if you want to say anything, you don't have to give a number. You can just say.

That's true. Enough to support myself. Yep. That's all that matters. And that's actually a perfect segue to the next common kind of remark that a frenemy can often voice, which is, oh, must be nice that you can afford that. Yes. Must be nice that you make so much that you're able to take that vacation or get that house.

It must be nice. Exactly. Yeah, and that's the green-eyed monster, right? We don't talk about it that very often, but I remember when I was, this came up for me, you know, part of my background is that I grew up in a family that struggled financially and it was paycheck to paycheck. And when it came time for me to apply for colleges, I had to write essays. And I actually wrote my college essay about the green-eyed monster, like growing up in a family

that kind of struggled financially and being in middle class like suburbia. You know, there's things like RoxyBee. shoes and quicksilver. That was like very cool when I was growing up. My parents were like, I'm not going to pay $35 for a pair of shorts for you. Are you crazy? Or like a t-shirt. And I just remember having this jealousy and thinking these, I remember thinking these things like must be nice. And now like as we're older, it happens all the time, like thinking that when we're scrolling through Facebook, right? It doesn't even have, somebody doesn't even have to say it to you. We're thinking it about people all the time. Like must be nice that you can do that. Must be nice that you can do that

you probably look at you, Paul. And they're like, must be nice that you can travel all over the place and do these things. Like, never mind that you've worked hard to build that lifestyle. to do all of that stuff. People make those general assumptions, again, to make themselves feel better. How do you deal with that? I mean, should you say anything about it or should you just stay quiet? If somebody's saying something to you, like, must be nice that you can, like, X, Y or Z. And then you just have to say, like, yeah, it is really nice. I'm really enjoying the house. I love that we worked so hard and saved to make this happen. Like, oh, our family loved this trip to Europe or to Disney World. Like, we saved for a couple of years to make that happen, like give them as much details as possible, or say thanks. Yeah,

it is really nice. You know, we've worked hard or I've worked hard to get to this point and I'm, I'm really enjoying it. They're not looking to hear that, but you just say thank you because they're looking to say like, when somebody's saying, like, must be nice to you, like, again, that's, they're dealing with their internal issues there. They're feeling guilty and jealous and feeling insecure about where they're at. So the best thing that you can do, aside from turning and saying, like, hey, you'll get there and don't worry about it because then you don't want it to, like, acknowledge it that they're feeling bad about themselves, but that's clearly what's happening. You just say gracious, thank you. Thank you very much. We are. I am enjoying it. We are enjoying it.

Whatever it is. But the biggest thing is, when somebody says that to you, it again, takes the wind away from like the excitement. Like you almost feel guilty for being able to like afford that car or that house or that vacation when other people can't. So you, so the biggest thing to remember is that assuming your finances are on track and you are doing the right thing by saving and sashing away for these things like you're doing things right like you're doing things right by you like you and so you have to try to not feel guilty when somebody else is pushing their problems on you and know that you've worked hard to get to where you are and then it's not your fault that somebody else isn't there so those are the things like so it's not even how to respond to it out loud but it's also how to

respond to it internally as well because a lot of the times that can be melt with feeling guilty. Like if it's a sibling, for example, and you have a better job or a better income and they're saying that must be nice, just got to say thank you, right? Because you can't feel bad that they don't have that because they chose a different path than you. Right. And everyone has benefits that we don't see and struggles that we don't see on, you know, both. Exactly. And the other thing is when somebody's saying that to you, there's like, there's the whole other aspect of like, you might have put something on your credit card. And like, so there's like the guilt around things as well. You know, we're thinking, yeah, must be nice that somebody else can do these things. Yeah, we don't know the behind the scenes

either. So it's never really a must be nice. Like, you know, we don't see what's going on in people's real lives. We see a highlight reel. So it's really important to to take that into perspective. All right. And then the last statement that frenemies often make is, come on, it's just one. It's just one dinner. It's just one vacation. Just as once. Yeah, that's almost the hardest, right? Because you're like, it's just one time. It's not, it's not going to be anything bad. It's not going to do anything. But the thing is, like, especially so that it's just this once thing, we're almost propelled even further into it because we have this fear of missing out as well, right? So it's just this one time and everybody else is doing it and I don't want to miss out on it. So this is where it's really a time to be clear on what your goals are. So this goes back to, again, having, you know, the whole start of the book is about figuring out what your why is and figuring out what's truly. important to you. And is it truly important to you to not just like not just to pay out the debt, but being debt free so that you could have that flexibility and freedom to, you know, have room in your budget, to be able to do those, you know, the one drink every now and then or to, you know,

save for that fund, that travel fund. So it's really important to go back to knowing what your goals are, knowing your why and knowing why travel is important to you. Like, why are having those experiences important to you. So it goes back to just knowing like the activity that you want to do, digging in more to how you want to feel because then when you're presented with these opportunities of it's just this once you can confidently say like actually I'm working towards these things so I'm going to have to bow out on this one but if you want to do something cheaper come over to my house we can do drinks there or if you want to do lunch instead of dinner that's what I can work in you can suggest alternatives that you know work for you but you can also just confidently say no because you know

you have other things that you're working towards the problem is when you don't have other things you're working towards, then it's really hard just to even say no. Like, why are you going to say no? If there's nothing that's really prompting us forward, it becomes much harder to stay. You're not even on track for anything. We don't really have goals that you're working towards. So that's why the goals, having those clear goals really comes into play because the clearer you are, the more progress you can measure and track to help you say no to these things. So how much of that is a conversation that you would need to have with a friend and again, how much of that is internal processing? So being prepared ahead of times, that's where coming in, like doing some sort of like,

to be at this point to where you're ready to have these conversations, you have to already done some sort of financial work for yourself. So you have to be at the point where we have the goals. You have a budget in place. You have some plans for yourself. And when you're at that point, like, that's the internal stuff that you should be doing now, basically, so that going forward, when you do have this conversation or somebody presents this to you, it's just this one thing, then you just say, like, actually, I'm working towards X, Y, and Z right now, so I'm going to have to say no. So you can't just say, like, no, I shouldn't, I shouldn't spend the money. It makes it sense. like, you know, that makes it easier for somebody to almost assay. You're like, oh, come on. But if you're like,

actually, no, I'm saving for this great trip to Europe right now. And, you know, I'm halfway there. So I'm going to have to bow out on this one. I'm not going to, I mean, that's something that you're invested in as opposed, and that they can get invested in with you. So I think that's a conversation. Like, that's how much you can say. Like, you don't necessarily need to say, like, hey, I'm $10,000 in debt and I really shouldn't. But let them know you're excited about something else that you're working towards and then suggest alternatives. And I think that's as far as the conversation needs to go. It's just, again, getting comfortable pushing back. I like the specificity of that example. Oh, hey, I'm saving up for this big trip to Europe.

Or, oh, hey, I'm five months away from being debt-free. Because, yeah, the more specific that example is, than the harder it is to fight. It would be much harder for a friend to say, like, well, can't you just pay off your debt in six months and say that. Exactly. And that's where doing the work up front comes into play. It's a lot easier to be confident in pushing back and in saying, know because you have a lot more clarity of where your finances actually stand. Nice. The other thing that I found that works well for this is the practice that I have, the anti-budget, where whatever it is that I want to save, and I use the term save loosely to refer to

anything, investing, paying off debt, anything that improves your net worth. I decide what that money is. I take it off the top. Whatever's left over is what I have to spend. And so if I can spend that money on X, then cool, I can. And when I'm out of money for the month, then I'm out. Yep, that's how we do it in our house too. So that certainly helps a lot with, you know, it's just this once because you know what pool of money you're working with and you either have it or you don't within that pool.

It just so happens that that pool is not reflective of your entire income. But, you know, it's the pool that you've got. Yep, exactly. Everything else gets transferred out off the top and you're left with, whether it's $500 for the paycheck period or $1,000, whatever it is that's happening. Like, that's what you have to work with. That includes your, yeah, that's your just this one budget and you're dining out and everything else in between for that time period. I mean, if you want to splurge it all on just one purse, then that's fantastic. You're out of money for, you know, two weeks. So of these types of financial frenemies, is there any one that's the worst? Like, is there a certain type of financial frenemy that you should just get rid of entirely? Or are these all manageable?

I think the biggest one is the one-upper. I think the one-upor is anybody that's trying to make you feel, is trying to top you on what you're achieving and a friend that can't actually celebrate what you're working towards and what you're doing, that's not necessarily a good friend. I think that's probably just from that standpoint, if it's something that continues,

like that's not somebody you want to keep in your life. Ultimately, if you can't feel good and celebrate around them, what's the point of having them around? And if there is a point, then keep them specifically for that. and get rid of them, get rid of the rest. What would you say? Do you have a... I would say that it's the, can you spot me, I'll get you next time. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, if you're building up debt, yeah. Financially, yeah, somebody's loaning.

I guess I'm working off the assumption that, like, they're paying you back. But yeah, if somebody's borrowing money from you and not paying you back, then yes, they should probably go. Yeah. Don't worry about, if you're going to cut those people, though, you have to not... My perception would be make it a clean cut and just assume that the... money that you've loaned is a loss. It's gone. Yeah. The problem is when they're family. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Because then you can't cut it off. So then you have to deal with the behavior

itself because that person's always going to be in your life. But the problem is that most people don't understand money and therefore most people don't understand why something that is a negligible amount to you would be an amount that would still upset you so much. Yes. Yeah. Exactly. And it's hard too, right? Because it's almost, if the intentions aren't set from the beginning is the issue. If it's a negligible amount, yes. And if it's a negligible amount and we're saying, you know what, I'm just going to give this as a gift. I'm not going to get it back. And you set that from day one, totally different when you don't get it back, right? But then if you're, even if it's like 20 bucks and somebody's just not paying you back and it's hard not to dwell on it

because you've already set the intention that you're going to get it back. And then it's just not talked about and it's delayed. So the anxiety and animosity builds there. But I think with the intention is set from early on, it's easier to move on from it if you're setting it with the intention for family that it's a gift. I'm not going to get it back. But hey, this is what I can do. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. There's a bit of that entitlement. If you have a long pattern of giving a family member loans that they never pay back, then that family member can sometimes develop a bit of an entitlement complex. So, yeah, I mean, at least in my experience, that's the most toxic type of financial frenemy,

but maybe it's just because I've had to deal with it. Yeah. Well, no, I completely, I think it's, yeah, it's situational. It depends on how toxic the family member is. And then it takes a whole lot of, like, a reworking if you have to keep them in your life and being persistent and consistent and saying no more. Right. And dealing with a fallout.

Yeah. Great. Well, thank you so much, Mary Beth. where can people find you if they would like to know more? People can find me at workablewealth.com and then on Instagram and Twitter at MaryBstores. Excellent. I will link to all of those plus your book, Work Your Wealth. I will link to all of those in the show notes at podcast.offordainting.com. Awesome. Thanks so much for having me, Paula. This was fun.

What are some of the key takeaways that have emerged from this conversation with Mary Beth? Well, number one, honesty really is the best policy. If you're not comfortable answering a question, it's okay. In fact, it's preferred if you flat out say, hey, I'm not comfortable answering that. Because if you try to dodge the question or you try to give a half-hearted response, people can try to figure out how to circumvent around it. They can bait you, they can goad you. But if you flat out say, I don't want to answer that, then there's really nothing that they can do.

takeaway number two is that sometimes a few minutes of awkwardness is preferable to weeks or months of second-guessing yourself. So, for example, if somebody asks, how much do you make, or what's the rent on this place, or how much did your car cost? Yeah, you might experience a couple of minutes of immediate awkwardness by saying, I don't really want to talk about that. But those few minutes of short-term awkwardness are preferable to the alternative, which is to spend the next few weeks or months wondering whether or not they're judging you. So takeaway number two is that it's okay if you create an awkward situation because typically that awkward situation in the short term is going to be better than second-guessing yourself in the long run. Key takeaway number three is that sometimes your response needs to be out loud, but sometimes your response needs to be an internal processing. If people are making comments because they're jealous or they feel insecure, you know,

there's only so much that you can say that can handle that. Yeah, you can validate them. But sometimes the real response is that you need to reassure yourself that what they're saying is a reflection on them, not a reflection on you. And one of the points during this interview when that message really came through to me was when Mary Beth said that if someone says, oh, must be nice, sometimes the best response is just to say, thank you. And then move on. Because what they're saying is not really a reflection on you. It's a reflection on their own insecurities.

And if you just take that statement at face value, take it as a compliment, say thank you, move on, then you're showing your own confidence. And hopefully that's just where that story ends. They can interpret that as they will. And they'll have to work through that themselves. But you can't change other people. At the end of the day, all you can do is work on your own internal processing. Those are a few of the top takeaways that I got from this conversation with Marybeth. Share your own thoughts at podcast.offordainthing.com

where you can access the show notes and where you can subscribe to email updates about upcoming episodes. Also, please head to iTunes and leave us a review. These reviews are super instrumental at helping us land better guests and expand the show. While you're at iTunes, hit subscribe so that you can get new episodes as soon as they appear. Thank you so much. This is Paula Pant from the Afford Anything podcast. I'll see you next week. Bye.