Afford Anything - The Alter Ego Effect, with Todd Herman

Episode Date: March 25, 2019

#184: In 2003, Beyonce Knowles-Carter felt shy about performing sultry lyrics and dance routines on stage. She needed a tactic to overcome her nerves and stage fright. So she created an alter ego, Sasha Fierce, to bring out her more assertive side. Beyonce is one of many top performers -- along with other top artists, athletes, executives, speakers, investors, bankers, lawyers, negotiators, and more -- who use alter egos as a tactic to overcome their insecurities and become better versions of themselves. Today's podcast guest, Todd Herman, is an expert at the practice of creating alter egos to improve your performance in any arena of life. He says that crafting an alter ego can help you become a better worker, leader, manager, investor, and even a better parent. Todd joins us on today's podcast to describe the "why" and "how" of creating an alter ego at work, at home, and in social settings. For more information, visit the show notes at https://affordanything.com/episode184  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You can afford anything but not everything. Every decision that you make is a trade-off against something else, and that doesn't just apply to your money. It applies to your time, focus, energy, attention. It applies to anything in your life that's a limited resource. And so the questions become twofold. Number one, what's most important to you? Number two, how do you align your daily decisions accordingly? Answering these two questions is a lifetime practice, and that's what this podcast is here to explore.

My name is Paula Pant. I'm the host of the Afford Anything podcast. And today, Wall Street Journal best-selling author Todd Herman joins us on the show to discuss kind of an interesting concept. It's called The Alter Ego Effect, which is also the title of his book. Now, as Todd is about to explain, the alter ego, which is another way of saying the other self, is a way that you can use the power of vivid imagining to project yourself. into some other person or animal or some other being that can help you get through a scary situation. So, for example, when Beyonce first started performing, she felt kind of shy about getting up on stage and wearing these scantily clad clothing and singing provocative lyrics. Like she didn't really feel like that was her as Beyonce.

So she imagined this alter ego, Sasha Fierce. And Sasha Fierce could go on stage. and sing and dance in the way that she did. By creating this alter ego, by imagining herself as somebody else, she was able to get through that stage fright, she was able to push through those nerves, and eventually she got to the point where she didn't need Sasha Fierce anymore. So that's an example of how a performer, a top performer, uses the notion of alter egos to get through the scary parts.

And as Todd is about to describe, many people, artists, athletes, business executives, salespeople, many people do this in order to play a better game or make cold calls or go into a tough negotiation or deliver a speech or do other things that scare them. The alter ego is not about creating a false mask. It's about tapping into the strength that's already inside you. It's a tactic. It's a mental framework that allows you to get out of your own way. So let's hear Todd Herman describe the alter ego effect. Who uses it? When and how?

We're going to find out right now. Hi, Todd. Hey, Paula Pant. I love the alliterative names. Oh, thank you. You know, my middle initial is also P. No way. Don't tell me, I can play guessing game.

Is it Priscilla? It's not. I don't think you're going to guess it. It's not a name that most Americans have heard. Well, then fire away. Pragya. Pragya. Yes.

Prugya. Wow. Brief story, I'll make this quick. When I was born, Prugya was the name that's on my birth certificate. I was born in Kathmandu, Nepal. When I came to the U.S., my parents realized I was going to need an American name. And since I didn't have a middle name, they added Paula to the beginning of my name so that my Prugia then slid into the default middle name position.

Oh, wow. But what's funny about it is that Pragya is the Nepalese word for wisdom, and Paula takes its roots in Latin for small or very little. Very little wisdom. Oh, my gosh. That is a stand-up routine right there, if I've ever heard one. Oh, that's great. I thought you were going to say something like Paula is the root word for finance, and so it's just odd that you know. So financial wisdom, that would be amazing.

But I love that. Very little wisdom. Exactly. Yeah, I started off with wisdom and then later I just negated it. Yeah, as typically we all do, and we can maybe actually talk about that today with the interview. Absolutely. So you have talked about the alter ego effect, the idea of embracing somebody else. What would cool do?

What would prugia do? Yeah. Tell us about this concept. Yeah. So just has a little bit of background for other people. I mean, I've been working with top athletes for 22 years with my sports performance business. And then about 17, 16 years ago started moving into the professional realms, public figures and whatnot. So I've been kind of rattling around inside the six inches of between the ears of top performers for a long time.

And as my skill set and as my practice developed, there was this common golden thread that was being weaved between the people who were performing at a consistently high level. and that was they would say things like, you know, I step into a different persona when I go in the field or the court or a different character or an alter ego. And they would kind of dance around this concept. And I had used it when I played sports and then when I started my business, I latched onto the idea to help me kind of navigate the internal resistance I had of, you know, looking young and starting my business at a young age and, you know, was stopping me from getting out there and doing the things I wanted to do. And really, the concept of an alter ego is something that every single human being on the plan, planet has 100% used at some point in time in their life. Why? Because it's baked into the human psyche. I mean, when we were young, we played with the idea of being, you know, a cowboy or an astronaut or a nurse or a teacher or our favorite superhero as we jumped off of the couch and landed

somewhere. I mean, my children were just playing with that last night as they wore their little capes around the house. Or we would step into pretending to be our favorite basketball player when we're in the front yard or our hockey player or football player. What it does is actually just, just allows us to suspend the disbelief of what we think we can do and we step into the idea of someone and something else that we know that they can already do it. And that idea of knowing it's possible helps us kind of move around more gracefully this resistance that often stops many people. So it's built into us. And what it's doing is it's tapping into really and truly the one superpower that human beings have, which is our creative imagination, which getting back to our

earlier kind of commentary around wisdom is we have this inner wisdom that we're born with. We tap into it all the time every day. And then we hear things like, oh, we need to grow up and you need to act your age and stop being so childish. And what we do as kids is we start to create a narrative that, oh, doing those things as being a child and an adult does things more different. They're more serious and they take things more seriously. So we need to stop doing that. And we start walking away from this really great gift that we have our creative imagination. And we stopped utilizing it. And what I found, though, was the top performers, they didn't. They were using it sometimes naturally. Sometimes they were using it very intentionally. And it was a way of creating

great context in life that this field of play is demanding these skills and these abilities from me. So I'm going to custom create a self that goes out custom built to win. And what it is now doing is it's tapping into a brand new field of psychology that has emerged, which is the multiple self-theory, which for the longest time, the psychology world had kind of taken out the idea to the world that the people who had the self-health health health were people who saw themselves with one single identity, one single self. From a practitioner standpoint, me, who's working with a lot of people one-on-one, now I have large group programs and stuff, but for the longest time, I cut my teeth working people one-on-one, 16,000 plus hours, actually. That wasn't the case for me. I was like,

well, the people who are actually winning out there see themselves as having many selves. And so now the psychology world is flipped, and they have flat out said that the people who have the healthiest rate of mental health are people who live in the context of many selves and the people who struggle with mental health issues have a single identity. You know, like they don't see the difference between who they are in business and who they are at home. That's fascinating. The multiple self theory. Yeah. How do you square the multiple self theory with the notion of living completely in alignment or in integrity with yourself, your thoughts, your feeling your behaviors, how do those two, on the surface they would seem to conflict.

Yeah, and they don't. And the reason is because the performance and the way we need to succeed is typically living in context to a circumstance or a role that we're playing. And I'll give an example. So me right now, I spend, you know, eight to 10, sometimes 12 hours a day working with clients. And I have a very challenger personality type or a challenger personality that I'm bringing to my business because I'm constantly challenging people on their paradigms, giving them brand new ways and tools to navigate their worlds, whatever that might be, business, professional. And so I'm constantly challenging people. Now, when I leave my office and I go home, is that what my kids want? My kids don't want a challenger personality type. That's the last

thing that they need. They want the fun, playful side. So now that that side of me starts to be elevated. And so in the context of our fields of play that we all kind of go in experience, we're always dialing up some aspects of ourself and dialing down other things because they help us to get a better result there. That doesn't have nothing to do with being inauthentic. That's just understanding that's how humans operate. And so it would be terrible for me to go home and just bring that same challenge or personality and boss my kids around or something like that.

That's not what they want. However, you know, me being a new-ish dad, I mean, my oldest. is only six, Molly, and then I've got Sophie who's four and a half and Charlie who's two. There's a moment where Sophie a couple of years ago, she has this great tantrum ability and she was having this tantrum. Anyone who's a parent knows that that's like a force of nature when a kid's having a tantrum. And now you could bring your force of nature of being the parent to that. Now you've got two forces meeting each other. Most people will tell you that it just doesn't work. It typically prolongs the tantrum. I was having that experience and one, I just had this epiphany. I'm like,

wait Todd, this isn't how you would perform because I'm just coaching myself in that moment. And immediately I thought, well, the absolute best self I'd love to bring to this would be like a Mr. Rogers type self. And so that became my kind of inspiration for that alter ego. And really all I'm doing is I'm being inspired by that individual. So the very next time Sophie had a tantrum, which was the next day, I did exactly what he would do, which is I got down on one knee, grabbed Sophie, brought her in and gave her this big hug. despite the fact that on the inside, I was like raging. But what did she do? She melted. Eight seconds. you know, normally her tension would last 15, 12 minutes or something, eight seconds, she was done. And like any little kid, she was off going and playing somewhere else. Now, is that me being inauthentic? Or is that me being not real? No. In fact, what it does is it actually unlocks this more sense of being this heroic self like this, you really felt like you brought your best to that situation. So that you can deceive or trick other people, then that's definitely being inauthentic. But what I'm doing and what I talk about in the book is about really bringing people into and acting through with intention of who and what you want to be bringing on to whatever field it is that is important for you to perform at a high level.

And it's not about you doing things for other people because that's actually what causes most people, the most strife is that kind of thing. But it's about you just really recognizing that these powers are already existing inside of you. But now you're just going to gracefully use someone or something else to help pull that out of you onto the field. What is the difference between embracing an alter ego versus looking up to a role model and aspiring to exhibit some of the qualities that that role model has? It could be nothing and it could be quite a lot. The idea of bringing an alter ego or using an alter ego and then looking at role models

and being inspired by them is that if you're looking at those role models and being inspired by them, is that if you're looking at those role models and inspired by them, the question I would have for someone is, is do you already feel like you lack those qualities? And if that's the case, then oftentimes it creates a separation and a gap of here's me over here and here's these other people over here and I'm very different than them. But what you can do is if those role models became an alter ego for you, now what you do is you've just enclosed yourself cognitively in their abilities. And this taps into a psychological phenomenon that we have as human beings, which is called enclosed cognition. There was a study that was done at the Kellogg School of Management. What they did was, have you ever seen those word puzzles

where they have a word of a color? Oh, but the word is a different color? Yes. Yes. Yeah. And so what they did is they had this big wall map and it had a bunch of different words on it, all with the word of a color. So yellow, but it's colored in green and they had it all over. And so they brought in a bunch of students individually and you had to go through this entire grid map and say the word that's spelled out. And it's quite difficult because your brain process is color before it actually does the letters itself. So anyways, they time them, they track all their mistakes and, you know, how focused they were and then each individual leaves the room and they have all the data, bring in another group. And this time the second group, they hand them a white coat to put on and they tell them it's

a painter's coat. And then they do the exact same test and then track the information. They leave and then they bring in a third group and they hand them the exact same white coat. But this time they tell them it's a lab coat or a doctor's coat. And they do the test. Well, the interesting thing with the data was that the people who wore the lab coat or doctor's coat made less than half the mistakes and they completed the task in less than half the time. Why is that? Well, it's because we all attribute story and meaning to the clothes that we wear and that others wear. And when you put on an article of clothing, you end up in clothing yourself in the cognitive state or abilities of whatever you've just attached that to. So if you put on a policeman's

uniform, you would start to most likely act through whatever beliefs and narrative you have about what it means to be a police officer. So you might be more disciplined. You might stand more upright. You might have your head up. All these things just naturally start to flow out of you. Okay. And that isn't you being fake. That's just the human mind. That's just what we do. And so when they put on the doctor's coat, they started acting through the traits of doctors and lab technicians, which is careful, detail-oriented, methodical, which helped them with that specific test, because it was a detail, methodical type test. Now, the people who were the painter's coat, they showed zero change in the results of the people who were just plain clothes. Why? Because when you

put on a painter's coat, you enclose yourself in the traits of some. someone who is creative, expressive, imaginative, all qualities that don't help you with that specific task. But then they did another test with them, which was a creative test. And of course, this time the results changed. The people who had the lab coat, doctor's coat on, had the exact same results of the plain clothes people. But the people who wore the painter's coat this time, they had a better result than everyone else. So going back to this idea of your question of if we just sort of look at a role model or whether we use it as an alter ego. My only question to just to help refine the idea for someone is if you bring that

idea more inside and you might use a totem or an artifact to help enclose yourself in the idea of that role model, the chances of you exhibiting their traits go way up. And you did this in your own life with a pair of glasses. I did. I started out. I was so insecure that I looked like I was 12 years old when I started my business when I was around 21. I had used this idea of an alter ego when I played football and I got a college scholarship from my kind of high school playing days. And when I was stopping myself from doing the things I needed to do in order to kind of get out there and share my thoughts around mental toughness with people, I was just not making the calls I needed to do because, again, I was just

sort of wrapped up in my brain around looking too young and who's going to believe me. And I need to have NID be 40 years old before you're you know got experience and all this kind of narrative crap and I one day had this kind of epiphany around wait a second I used this idea of an alter ego when I played football so why don't I use this to help me kind of you know step into a super Richard version of myself when I go into business and my middle name is Todd and that's what I've always gone by but my first name's actually Richard and so the idea was that I wanted to have this kind of Superman version of myself and you know just like like Superman puts on glasses to become his alter ego, which is Clark Kent, the mild-mannered

version of himself so that society accepts him. I wanted to put on glasses to become the Superman version of myself. So it was like a reverse Superman and have the quality of someone who's confident and articulate and decisive. There was actually a couple of things that I did that were sort of dumb luck because just like I kind of unpacking the book, there's mountains of evidence that shows that people who wear glasses are perceived to be smarter, more confident, more responsible. And so I had managed to kind of step into the idea of enclosed cognition at a young age. But that's what I did. I went out to where I was living at the time, Edmonton, Alberta. I live here in New York City now, and I got a pair of non-prescription

glasses. And this was a long time ago. This was long before glasses were a, you know, a stylish fashion statement. And even the optometrist was giving me a hard time back then around. You're like, you don't need glasses. You've got 2015 vision. And I'm like, no, no, no, no, just please give me the glasses kind of thing. And that's what I did. I was very intentional. I was like, you know, when I put these on, I'm no longer going to be that insecure Todd. I'm going to be that confident Richard in business. And I didn't make people call me Richard, by the way. I was just, that's, that's, that was my own sort of internal narrative. And then, you know, about six months later, I was sitting down, I just booked a couple of like really good talks and workshops and realized I didn't have

my glasses on in that moment. And I was like, wow, I finally became that person that I most wanted to be six months earlier. So I had become that self that I was aspiring to be. And it actually ties in perfectly with a quote that I share in the book a couple of times from Carrie Grant, the Golden Era Hollywood actor who said, I pretended to be somebody I wanted to be and I finally became that person or he became me or we met at some point. So he was someone who's known as being like really charismatic and debonair and, you know, came from Bristol, England and came over to Hollywood and conquered Hollywood and was one of the biggest names in that space. And, you know, same thing, was insecure with himself, but then finally kind of stepped in and found that person he most

wanted to become. And the only thing I would change about the quote is, you know, like I talk about in the book, is I activated somebody I wanted to be and I finally became that person or he became me or we met at some point. And, you know, that's been my experience with the hundreds and thousands of people that I've worked with or the all the people that I unpack in the book that have used this throughout history. It's this idea that we're always unfolding. And what an alter ego does is it helps us unfold with more grace and more grit. You've talked about how there are aspects of ourself that get drawn out in different contexts. So in an office setting, there's a different aspect of yourself than the one that gets drawn out in a family setting versus on a sports field.

Yeah. Would it make sense for an individual to have multiple alter egos that are context dependent? Or would that be, in essence, spreading yourself too thin because you wouldn't really be able to identify and internalize the characteristics of each one? Yeah. I think starting out, just to get people to have a little refresher course in how they actually do operate mentally and kind of bring them back to their youthful ways or youthful days and start chipping into the creative imagination more is find one and start playing with the idea. And what I would suggest with people is whichever area of your life is the one that's challenging

you the most right now, that's a great place to start because it's the place where you're going to get the kind of the biggest immediate bang for your buck. And then from there, continue to play with it if you want. I mean, I'm not here to place any rules on how people want to use. use their own their own mindset. I just know that I think probably the most alter egos I'd seen someone use at one time was about three. And that was, it's someone here in New York City who is like a top professional in the financial space, uses one for business, uses one for competing in sport, and then has another one for themselves as a dad at home. And in fact, there's probably

have been more wins that have happened with people that have brought it more into the context of their parenting style than I've seen anywhere. And it's probably the one that I feel is like, if there's a great win, that's one of the great wins because my biggest role in life that I get to play is being a dad. And so just the idea that other kids get to experience their parents in a more caring and supporting and loving way is a nice way to end the day. You talked about starting with one. How do you go through the process? mentally of developing this alter ego. Yeah.

So the first place to start is just context. It's like, you know, which area are you going to use it for? Is it for business? Is it for your personal life? Is it for fitness? Is it for some other area of your personal life? That's one place. So now that we know that, now we can get to the next stage, which is, okay, so what's

frustrating you about that current role that you're playing or that current field of play, whatever it might be? and you unpack what those frustrations are, what's not showing up, like you know that you want or can, what are the actions that you're not taking or what are the behaviors that you're exhibiting that you don't like? And, you know, we're trying to get some clarity around that. And then the third step is, all right, so if that's the case, then what are the qualities that you do want to be bringing to the table? Or who has the qualities already that you most want to show up with and as? And in the book, like, I mean, there's just so many different stories of

how people found their alter ego, which are all different ways. But who has those qualities? Who or what? Just like Kobe Bryant used the Black Mamba when he was playing basketball. And he was inspired when he was watching, he was going through a difficult time at the time. And he was inspired by the snake when he was watching the movie Kill Bill. And then you could probably do an interview with Kobe Bryant. And he would know he would know more about black mamba's than people. probably most biologists do, which actually kind of taps into one of the secrets around this is when you do find whoever that role model is that inspires you, and again, it doesn't have to be a person. It could be a real life person. It could be a character in movies. It could be superheroes. It could be an animal or it could be a completely different machiner object that might inspire someone. It's learn as much as you can about them. Because the more and more that you understand the history of it or the power of it or the narrative of that person, the more you're

just tapping into one of the great powers of the human mind, which is that storytelling part of the mind, that emotional factor. There are so many people who have these ideas and their thoughts in their head of what they want to do, but then what ends up happening in their day with the actions they take, there's a big discrepancy. Sometimes they don't raise their hand. Sometimes they don't speak up. Sometimes they don't ask for the sale.

Sometimes they don't make the investment or buy the second investment property, whatever it might be for the people that are listening. And that doesn't feel good. And so the bridge that connects thought and action for human beings is our emotion. And the more story attachment that you have and the more that you're inspired by an emotional level, that trusted friend that you're bringing internal, which is what Cicero called the alter ego when he coined the phrase back in 44 BC. that trusted friend the other eye. Now you brought that ally internal. The more and more you're connected to it. The chances of you acting through it are just that much higher. So that was why Kobe Bryant learned so much about the Black Mamba. He knows all of its like intricacies and its powers. Or one of my other clients who's a young baseball player in the New York area here,

who when we were talking, we built out Paul Bunyan. And the reason we used Paul Bunyan is because he was a young kid, always very good baseball player. And I mean, one of the best leaders that I've probably ever worked with. He's just a phenomenal kid. But like what happens in youth, he didn't hit his puberty stride as early as other kids did. So now all of a sudden the other kids are growing taller and bigger than him. And it started to make him insecure about his skills. And he started focusing on the people around him and not what he could do. And so one day, I just noticed that that was what was developing for him. And so I asked him if he knew who Paul Bunyan was, he didn't. So I said, well, go do some research and come back tomorrow and let's chat about it. And so he did. And we had this

whole story around who he was, how big he was, how he could knock down a big redwood tree with a single swing of his axe, and he was 100 feet tall and all these different points of data. And he was excited about him. And I said, okay, that's who you're going to go up to the plate as. You're going to leave yourself on the sidelines and all those insecurities that you have. You're going to leave those insecurities there. And you're going to bring Paul Bunyan up there. and he was so he was so connected to that idea and he went 23 for 23 at the plate which in baseball doesn't happen

and he was smacking the ball that kind of gets to my point that I'm trying to drive home with my clients is that that hero is already inside what my job is to do is to help peel away the layers of your own insecurities that don't need to be there or aren't serving you anyways that third phase is about

maybe you're intellectually thinking about the skills you want or you already know who you'd most like to show up as out there. And then the fourth one is find a totem in an artifact. What's something that you can use to help trigger that and kind of use the power of enclosed cognition to tap into that alter ego, just like I used glasses. Other people have used glasses. Some people like one of my clients who Wonder Woman is her alter ego. She's an equestrian competitor. She has a bracelet that she uses just like Wonder Woman would. There's necklaces, there's socks. There's all sorts of things that people can use. There's small pebbles from people's homes that they grew up in and they have it in their pocket.

There's all sorts of things that people can use to tap into it. And then that fifth one is to really act with intention once that's on. We'll come back to this episode after this word from our sponsors. So you know what kind of sucks is when you come back from a trip, like maybe you've been on a business trip or you've been visiting people. And you get back home and there's no food in the fridge. There's nothing to eat. You don't want to order takeout or go to a restaurant. You want groceries, but it's just not a good time to go to the store because it's 9 p.m.

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And trust me, you won't return them. Go to rothies.com, R-O-T-H-Y-S dot com, and enter Paula to get your new favorite flag. and free shipping. Once you try shoes that are comfortable, stylish, and sustainable, you're not going to wear anything else. So head to Rothes.com and claim this offer with code Paula. When you talk about acting with intention, how do you sustain that over a prolonged period of time? Because what I'm thinking about right now is I could put on glasses or put on certain shoes and really aspire to be Warren Buffett or take on that alter ego. But if I sit down at my laptop, for the first 30 minutes I'm focused, maybe hour one, hour two, I might still be focused.

By hour six, seven, eight, nine, my brain is turned into a puddle. How do you sustain that when you're fighting the forces of a distracted mind? Yeah. Well, that's definitely looking at it through the current level of awareness, right? So even now, you're someone who has developed over the course of many years, right? And we've all been like that. This is like conscious competence. You're going to use that power that we have to act with intention. But for people in business, I actually don't suggest that they need to build it out for the entire context of their entire day. But there are what I call in the book, moments of impact. Those moments that are the most impactful when it comes to your overall results that you're trying to strive to achieve.

That could be for a salesperson closing the sale. That could be for someone who is trading and looking at investments or doing deals. That could only be for a short period of time. Maybe it's in the final decision making of it. You know, that's that classic idea of what would Warren Buffett do? So that's one way to intellectually engage with it, but then, you know, what if you put on a pair of glasses and you actually sort of really channeled him in that way? And maybe you'll have to do it for like 15 to 20 minutes of your day instead of the entire day itself. You know, I work with a lot of finance people here in New York and I was out for dinner with a gentleman and he said, he asked the exact same thing. He's like, I see the power of it, but won't I just get like exhausted of having to engage them? I said,

most likely, yeah, because, you know, an athlete isn't competing for eight, nine hours. when they're out there. It's short bursts or it's not that long. But yeah, it's about finding what are those moments that are really important for you where you don't feel like you're getting that kind of best self. And when you really think about it, most of the times where people are unhappy with their level of performance, it's typically in context of a pressure-packed situation or dealing with other people. It's human nature. It's the most difficult parts of living is typically dealing with other human beings. And so Warren Buffett has this, you know, fantastic ability to poke fun of himself, doesn't take himself too seriously, right? What he does take seriously

is his diligence in the discipline that he has and which are all, you know, phenomenal qualities. If you can do something for 10 minutes, then you can do it for 15. And if you can do something for 15 minutes, you can do it for 20. And what you're talking about is to willpower something throughout the day, definitely is going to leave your brain in a puddle of mush at the end of it. But you'll be surprised at the horsepower that you get when you're sort of navigating through the creative imagination more so through this force of just willpower alone. Can your alter ego be a concept? So we've talked about embracing an alter ego that is a person whom you admire or an animal or even a machine or an object.

but it could it be an idea? Could it be like what would cool do? Yeah. Yeah. So what you're kind of talking about is almost like creating your own composite idea of it. And that's like, Paul, you're already going to the advanced strategy. That's that's the second book. No, no, no. In fact, one of them that sort of operates that way is like Oprah Winfrey. Oprah Winfrey's sort of use of the alter ego effect is, uh, She sort of operates through this poem from Maya Angelou where Oprah talks about how when she stands on stage or steps on stage or steps in front of a camera, she says she's standing in front of a tribe of many. What she means is all of the amazing female or African American leaders that came before her walk behind her now and she gathers strength from all of them. And so to kind of tie into that idea that you just talked about, so what she's kind of tapping into is just this idea of strength through power of many. And so yours, that idea of cool is you want to be able to conceptualize it as well. Like what does that cool mean to you? What is that representing? What is that allowing you to do in that moment as well?

So to your point, absolutely. There's just, there's no limit to it. How do you deeply internalize that idea if you can't then read a biography or dress like a particular individual? Yeah. In the book, I kind of talk about this one exercise of just so like why. Well, I mean, we can even play with that now. So you brought up cool. So why that particular word for you? I mean it largely as a synonym for staying calm. But the word calm to me denotes maybe a little bit of meekness. Okay. Yeah. Why do you really want to be stepping into something that you're feeling really cool in that situation? I sometimes get triggered quite quickly or quite easily, particularly by incendiary comments as a blogger or as somebody who's on social media. People often leave incendiary remarks, many of which are quite personal. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I need to embrace that cool in order to not take the bait.

Yeah. Is there anyone? or anything that actually you have come across that you think has like just really personifies that idea of cool. Hmm. Here, I'll give you one though. Okay. And this is actually one that you can actually probably Google and find out more afterwards as well. But do you know, I'm the comedian Sarah Silverman?

I know of her. I haven't seen her work. Okay. There was a troll basically on Twitter that started throwing some, just like many people can on Twitter, it seems, throw some fairly acidic remarks her way. And her response is one of the most amazing examples of almost kindness that you can find. She responded back with, wow, it sounds like someone has really hurt you. So she didn't take it personal.

She just saw it as someone who was like lashing out because it's more of a microcosm of just their own internal world because that's how someone would. if they aren't operating at a high level and they don't feel like life is going their way, they're going to find fault in others. So anyways, the guy, I think he responded back with, yeah, if you only knew what I had to be dealing with right now. And it kind of went out. Anyways, they went back and forth and this is a big, long kind of Twitter thread. In the end, people started jumping in and volunteering and got him medical treatment and volunteered a bunch of stuff. And it was just like amazing experience. So anyway, when I think of someone who is cool,

in the context of a lot of barbs being thrown their way, I think of that example as like one of the first examples of someone who is like, wow, that's someone who's operating from a place of emotional authority that is inspiring. So the reason I share that story with you is because there might be an opportunity in there for you is instead of you seeing it as people attacking you, which is what they're writing. what if your context in your mind is more they're really just attacking themselves that's a hurt people hurt people and so it's unfortunate that that person has to be living in that existence

but i'm not going to go live in that existence because just because people want to throw a bunch of barbs my way and it's extremely natural i mean if i went to amazon dot com and i read some one-star review where people were calling me out because i made a couple of grammatical errors when there's 49 other comments around people saying how much they love the book We just do that. We as human beings, we find that one outlier negative thing and we can latch onto it. That's the default state. And so what we're trying to develop is a higher level of emotional authority where we don't get triggered by those things as much.

So, I would, A, go find that Twitter back and forth just to kind of be inspired by it. But to start continuously dig deeper around. So what does coolness, how would you respond? Like you've got to know how you're going to respond then in that moment when someone throws some incendiary comment your way. In this example, would I take on the Sarah Silverman alter ego or would I still embrace an alter ego of the concept of cool that is a composite of these examples like the Sarah Silverman example? Well, I mean, the easiest thing to do in the beginning is to say, well, what would Sarah Silverman do in that situation? Because it's just a great anchor in the mind. It brings you back to that kind of wisdom that you might have, in my case, what I gleaned from Sarah. But she doesn't quite match up with the alter ego of what I have in mind because I still view her way more as a comedian than I do as like some sort of like shamanic, you know, leader on the pathway to calmness and coolness. So context in my mind is I want to leave her in the bucket of a comedian that I love. But so it's either or it's that sitting in that kind of space of coolness. or it's maybe, you know, just continue to play with it. And again, it's a great question because rarely do people actually find their alter ego the very first time?

It's just, you know, you're just playing with the idea. And so, you know, maybe the first one gets you a little bit way down the pathway, but then all of a sudden you're like, oh, actually, it's this. And I'll give you a good example. So, you know, just because of the business that I run, there's times where I have to do marketing. I have to create some sort of messaging for things with my team. anytime your face and name is on the cover of something, it's for some people,

not the easiest thing for them to write. Like if you ask anyone who's ever had to write a resume or an about page, it's probably the thing that took them the longest to ever do in their entire life. For me, to have fun with it, though, is I have a complete replica of the Darth Vader helmet that I will occasionally just put on. And if I'm going to write something,

I'll throw on the Darth Vader helmet. Luckily, I'm in an environment where, I can sit solo and do that. But man, does it ever make it a lot easier to write some marketing message? Because Darth Vader sure as heck doesn't care about what anyone is ever going to be writing about him. Or it's that idea that I'm just also just stepping into just like taking that lightsaber out and just cutting through that project that I need to cut through. We'll come back to this episode in just a minute. But first, do you ever get frustrated at work because you feel like you're using old outdated software or tools?

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FreshBooks.com slash Paula to try it free for 30 days. What is the difference between an alter ego versus the notion of fake it till you make it? Well, I mean, fake it till you make it first is it's a terrible message, right? It's just it's something that doesn't induce a lot of people to be inspired to go and do it. And it's also very much for most people and outside in approach. It's like we're going to fake it on the outside until we feel it on the inside. whereas, you know, what we talk about in the book and, you know, just the examples that I give, whether it's, you know, Martin Luther King or Beyonce using Sasha Fierce or Winston Churchill or any

other clients that might be in there too, is that it's about acting with intention around who and what you want to be bringing to that field of play so that you can get the best results for yourself, not in a selfish way, but because of a. the way that you're possibly currently showing up or currently challenged by, you're too wrapped up in what other people are going to be thinking about you, which is an outside in approach.

That's that kind of fake it till you make it. But it's really just, it's about honoring the idea that the power sits with you. Like you do hold the cards with how you want to show up. And alter ego is tapping into the creative forces that you've already got inside of you that can actually unleash the qualities that you most want to have out there. So it's about the intention of it all. Faking into making is typically about

deceiving, tricking other people. This is not about deceiving and tricking other people. It's about trying to take the other people out of the equation entirely. And internalizing something, becoming it so that then your actions reflect what you feel. Exactly. Do alter egos change over time? And if so, does that or should that happen consciously or is it okay to allow them to morph? Oh yeah, I mean, it's all of that. Sometimes you become so natural at it that you've become that person that you wanted to be. And then Todd has become that super Richard. And I don't refer to myself as super Richard anymore. Just like when Beyonce retired Sasha Fierce back in 2008 or 2010, I think it was with her album, she used that alter ego of Sasha Fierce to help her. You know, she was someone who grew up in a gospel singing family at the church in Houston, Texas, where she grew up and singing gospel lyrics. And now of a sudden she's young and in a dance and singing troupe that is dancing a little bit, maybe provocatively on stage and singing provocative lyrics. And that was all a challenge to her current identity, the way that she saw herself. That's why she went out and created Sasha Fierce, that kind of entertainer's self that could play with the idea more. She ended up becoming the entertainer and developing the skills that she wanted. And she didn't need Sasha Fierce anymore. And of course, the idea of an alter ego can continuously develop because probably for most of the people that are listening to your podcast, they're most likely achiever types. They're ambitious, right? And the nature of that type of individual is you're always pushing yourself. You're always striving to improve yourself. And that means you're putting yourself into new situations that are going to be slightly unnatural for you in the beginning. And so each time that's happening for you where you're leveling up, maybe another level in your career. or your profession or your vocation, you might adopt a new alter ego that's custom built for that

new role that you've got. What are the biggest things that people get wrong when they try to take on alter egos or when they try to internalize a persona that can help them? First one is they try to do it across way too many fields. They don't try to have it live in context to just one place. They're trying to create an alter ego for their entire life. And that's just extremely difficult to do. and it's not that healthy because what it does is it's breaking one of the fundamental new psychological rules of the many selves.

And now you're trying to use an alter ego as a single self and a single identity. And that's quite difficult to do for someone. So that would be the first thing. The second thing is just looking for perfection right out of the gate with it. You know, it's like anything. Some people have let their creative imagination lie dormant for its intentional purposes. Now, everyone is using their creative imagination and still does. It's just that some people aren't using it with intention right now.

They're not trying to steer it in the direction that they want. And they place an expectation that they're going to use it and it's going to be amazing on the very first try. And then maybe it doesn't go as perfectly according to plan. And then they say, yeah, screw it. This thing doesn't work kind of thing. So it's about giving things some time for it to make. marinate for you. And then if there was a third mistake that people had, it would be that they share it with other people too soon. Like I said, this is a mental construct. That's a personal thing

for many people. And while I openly share with other people, it's because I'm the teacher of it. But for most people, these were all very personal things that you're doing. You're not doing it for other people. You're doing it really for yourself. You're creating that ally inside your mind, just like Cicero had said, that trusted friend to help you navigate things. That's why when I was going through the book proposal process here in New York City and meeting with the publishers, we met with 19 publishers who were interested in the book, which is an incredible number of people. And I don't say that in a way of bragging because, like I say, I'm more of a champion for the idea more than I'm not the person who invented the idea.

You know, I created a process for it. But it was when people came into the room, they would lean forward they'd be like, I feel like I've been doing this my entire life. And I'm like, I know you have because that's the human psyche at work. And so people get so engaged with it. And then when they get into it, they're like, wow, there's actually this, there's way more depth to this than I thought. And that's because of me unpacking the psychology of how it works and, you know, the other people in history that have used it. But because I've been doing this for so long and I have had so many conversations with people on the side, whether it's athletes or public figures where they're like, you know what, I have an alter ego and it's X, Y, and Z. And it's just,

it's amazing because it's like they're telling someone for the first time, they're letting someone into their world and they get so much joy out of it because they're kind of sharing this kind of internal world. And I love it. But I'd say to people, use it for yourself first. Just play with this. And then you can share it with the people that you trust or whatever going forward. But I tell it with athletes not to share it especially because athletes, there's trash talk on the field. You typically don't have trash talk as much in the professional landscape. So it's not as big of a deal. So if a person shares it too soon, could that disrupt the formation or the internalization of the alter ego by essentially giving other people permission to plant doubt? Yeah. Don't forget that one of the most sinister methods for the enemy to try to pull you into the ordinary world is worried about the judgment and the worries and concerns of other people. So if you share that alter ego with other people and you're looking for their approval that you're doing the right thing, and they, you know, know, poo-poo it or something like that. Well, now you're going to start going back and ignoring just a fundamental truth of what it is to be human, which is this is extremely natural. It's not weird. It's not strange. It's not any of those things. And at the end of the day, the reason many people will criticize or judge others for wanting to maybe change themselves is because they want to

keep you normal because they have you in a box right now of the role that you're playing in their world and the idea that you're going to somehow change and possibly get better or pursue a new career or pursue a new business that's going to break their world they don't want that because again for the most part most human beings are terrified of change and anyone who's ambitious and and wants to really self-actualize themselves they need to be very mindful of that that's just a normal process for others. And it's like getting to that point we were talking about earlier around, the people who throw those incendiary comments your way, the people who throw those roadblocks and challenges in front of you, for me, it's just like, oh, isn't that fascinating?

That person really wants to keep me kind of in this zone because they're scared of change. Most people aren't really giving you advice because they truly do have an expertise in whatever it is that you're talking about. It's their opinion. And a lot of times they're just, they're trying to keep, they say they're trying to keep you safe or they're looking out for you or whatever the verbiage is that they spread. But reality is they're trying to keep themselves safe. Concern trolling. Well, concern trolling, that's, the internet throws a lot of things out of window when it comes to that. That's just, the internet has a fantastic ability to bring humanity down to its lowest based form of behavior sometimes.

You've released your book recently and you've been doing interviews about your book. When you come to these interviews, do you have an alter ego that you embrace for interviews? No, I don't need to anymore. I mean, I've been kind of playing this world of communicating and speaking on stages and all that. I'm a very outgoing, gregarious type personality, you know, like whether someone has ever taken a Myers-Briggs test before. and you know, you take all those things with a grain of salt, but I am as extroverted you can possibly get, but I am still a composite of that earliest alter ego where I was trying to be the most confident, articulate, and decisive self that it could possibly be. And so in some ways, that old

alter ego, which is, you know, truly who I am now is simply shining forth today. Thank you, Todd. What are some of the key takeaways from this? Here, are six. Number one, embracing an alter ego is natural. It's what we do as children when we wear capes and pretend that we're Superman and leap off the living room couch. What it does is it actually just allows us to suspend the disbelief of what we think we can do and we step into the idea of someone and something else that we know that they can already do it. And that idea of knowing it's possible, helps us kind of move around more gracefully this resistance that often stops many people. So it's built into us. And what it's doing is it's tapping into really and truly the one superpower that human beings have, which is our creative imagination.

Creative imagination is our true superpower. And this allows us to shatter our limiting beliefs about ourselves. because I may not be able to do it. Me with all of my fears and doubts and insecurities, I might not be able to, but Superman can or Sasha Fierce can. So key takeaway number one is that this concept that he's talking about, embracing an alter ego, it's very natural. It sounds, on the surface, it sounds kind of out there, but it's what we do as kids. It's using the power of imagination to project yourself into the embodiment of a person or an animal who has the qualities that you want to bring out in yourself. Key takeaway number two. The alter ego effect is a way of finding role models and asking yourself, what would that person do?

In addition to that, you're not just viewing that person from the outside. Rather, you're finding that aspect of a person, that quality of a person within you. So, for example, Todd talks about finding his inner Mr. Rogers when his daughter throws a temper tantrum. I was having that experience. And I just had this epiphany. I'm like, wait, Todd, this isn't how you would perform because I'm just coaching myself in that moment. And immediately I thought, well, the absolute best self I'd love to bring to this, would be like a Mr. Rogers type self. And so that became my kind of inspiration for that alter ego. And

really all I'm doing is I'm being inspired by that individual. So the very next time Sophie had a tantrum, which was the next day, I did exactly what he would do, which is I got down on one knee, grabbed Sophie, brought her in and gave her this big hug, despite the fact that on the inside, I was like raging. But what did she do? She melted. Eight seconds. You know, normally her tantrum would last 15, 12 minutes or something. Eight seconds, she was done. And like any little kid, she was off going and playing somewhere else. Now, is that me being inauthentic or is that me being not real? No. In fact, what it does is it actually unlocks this more sense of being this heroic self like this. You really felt like you brought your best to that situation.

And so the second key takeaway is to find those role models. Find people who exemplify who you want to be in certain situations in the same way that Todd wanted to be. be more like Mr. Rogers when he was around his daughter. So that's key takeaway number two. Key takeaway number three, the bridge between thought and action is emotion. And the stories that we tell ourselves drive and compel that emotion. There are so many people who have these ideas and their thoughts in their head of what they want to do. But then what ends up happening in their day with the actions they take, there's a big discrepancy. Sometimes they don't raise their hand. Sometimes they don't speak up. Sometimes they don't ask for the sale.

Sometimes they don't make the investment or buy the second investment property, whatever it might be for the people that are listening. And that doesn't feel good. And so the bridge that connects thought and action for human beings is our emotion. Embracing an alter ego is a way to deeply internalize a story and therefore feel the corresponding emotion around it given that story is emotion. And when we deeply internalize that story, that's how it affects our actions. In other words, embracing the alter ego effect is essentially a way of connecting with stories at a deeper level. And when we do that and we feel it more, that's naturally going to affect the way that we act. So that's key takeaway number three.

Key takeaway number four. You've already got what it takes. The tactic of using an alter ego is not about being somebody else. it's about drawing out and amplifying the best parts of you. This is actually the most important key takeaway. So I'm going to say that again. You have already got what it takes to succeed. You've already got it within you.

So this tactic, this alter ego thing that we're talking about, this is not about being somebody else. This is about using a tactic that allows you to find what's already inside of you. That hero is already inside. What my job is to do is to help peel away the layers of your own insecurities that don't need to be there or aren't serving you. So that's the fourth and most important takeaway. You've got what it takes. You just need to believe it. And the alter ego tactic might help you do that.

Key takeaway number five. The alter ego is a private matter. It's not something that you announce to others. In fact, the purpose of having one or developing one is to remove the judgments and insecurities. that are triggered by others because other people can't be judging you if you are not you at a particular moment in time.

If you are Beyonce and you feel all insecure, but you get up on stage as Sasha Fierce, well, then that brings out a certain confidence because all of a sudden people aren't judging you, Beyonce, they're judging Sasha Fierce. And she's different. So it's about the intention of it all. Ententee making is typically about deceiving, tricking other people. This is not about deceiving and tricking other people. It's about trying to take the other people out of the equation entirely.

And so key takeaway number five is to keep this effective, don't announce it to the world. If you go into a meeting or you go into a negotiation, if you cold call clients or make speeches on stage, you can do that as Superman or as a jazz. or as whatever inspires you, and it's more effective if you keep that to yourself and you use that in order to basically get your head in the game. Finally, key takeaway number six. Now, this sixth and final key takeaway does not just apply to the concept of the alter ego. It applies to anyone who wants to pursue financial independence or take a mini retirement or live in an RV or travel around the globe or pursue anything. that's unconventional. And here is what the takeaway is. So if you are looking for idea validation from others,

you might not get it. And be careful because doubt is contagious. So if you want to protect an idea, keep it to yourself until both the idea and your own mental toughness are strong enough to be able to withstand the doubt and withstand the storm. The reason many people will criticize or judge others for wanting to maybe change themselves is because they want to keep you normal because they have you in a box right now of the role that you're playing in their world.

And the idea that you're going to somehow change and possibly get better or pursue a new career or pursue a new business, that's going to break their world. They don't want that because, again, for the most part, most human beings, are terrified of change. There are many people who will criticize or question ambition and self-actualization and leveling up, particularly if your ambition expresses itself in an unconventional manner. And so many people will present criticisms and roadblocks and they'll plant the seeds of doubt. And it's perfectly okay to protect yourself and protect your ideas by not sharing the quote-unquote crazy idea that's brewing in your mind.

You don't actually have to announce your goals. In fact, sometimes it can be better if you don't. So those are six key takeaways from this conversation about the alter ego effect with Todd Herman. A few things before we end today's episode. First of all, two weeks ago, we interviewed Jill Schlesinger on this podcast. She wrote a book about the dumb things that smart people do with their money. I invited you to leave feedback on Instagram. I'm on Instagram at Paula Pant.

I invited you to leave feedback there about the interview. And we did choose a winner for the book giveaway. And we have contacted that person through Instagram. The comments were so good, so profound that I wanted to share a couple of things with you. So this one person wrote, I don't think I can pick just one favorite dumb mistake. so I'm going to list a few. A, I'm a palliative care nurse practitioner,

so having the difficult discussion with your loved ones about their end-of-life wishes is extremely important. If your father is on a respirator in the ICU, he won't be able to tell you what he wants. So talk to your loved ones when they're healthy and you can have a discussion about it. B, don't manipulate your kids with money. They'll resent you for the rest of their lives.

Teach and empower your kids to be financially responsible and to start as young as possible. And see, retiring early is not about never working again. It's about working when you want, where you want, and how you want. It truly is a beautiful thing. So that comment came from Good Boy Sawyer, who just discovered the podcast, says this is the first one that they listen to. Amazing, awesome, thank you. And I wanted to share that with this whole community because I think this group conversation,

the reflection on, like, what have we learned? What are we grasping from these interviews is a really beneficial one? So, delightful Diane left a comment saying, I didn't know that it might make sense to continue having disability insurance after reaching FI. That's another takeaway that came from that interview. And another person, potting with Potter, says, I loved Jill's comment about having to make two good decisions when timing the market. I might be lucky enough to hit on one, but two, never. I hadn't thought of it like that before. It's going to change the way I invest. That's awesome. So thank you, Potting with Potter. And I'm glad that that is going to change the way that you invest because absolutely, if you try to time the market, you have to be right twice.

You have to be right when you sell and when you buy. And the chances of being right twice are far, far slimmer than the chances of taking a lucky guess once. One last comment that I want to share? This one comes from Wild Heather Blooms, who says, I loved how you talked about knowing yourself and crafting a plan to help you manage your emotions. Self-awareness is so fundamental to all facets of growth. Why would finance be any different? Brilliant. Thank you. And absolutely, I like to think of this very much as not quote-unquote just a money show, but a show about self-awareness, knowledge, curiosity, self-discovery, a show that's about learning how to learn and thinking about how to think, all of which is told through the lens or through the filter

of personal finance. I got a really wonderful email from a podcast listener named Haley who told me that she describes this podcast as one that's about intentionally improving your life as explored through the lens of personal finance, entrepreneurship, and investing. And I think that that is wonderful. So thank you. Thank you so much. And I'm thrilled at all of this amazing discussion that's going on. You can join the discussion on Instagram at Paula Pant or you could also join the discussion on our Facebook group.

So if you just go to Facebook and search Afford Anything, you'll find our Facebook group. We have, as of today, we have just shy of 5,000 members. We have 4,998. We're two people shy of 5,000. Thank you so much, everyone, for tuning in. My name is Paula Pant. This is the Afford Anything podcast. Next week, my buddy, former financial planner, Joe Saul Seahy, and I will be answering your questions.

Make sure you hit the subscribe button in your favorite podcast player so that you don't miss that upcoming episode or any of our other great future upcoming episodes. Thank you again for tuning in. This is the Afford Anything podcast. My name is Paula Phantt. I'll catch you next week.