Afford Anything - The Code of Trust, with Robin Dreeke

Episode Date: October 30, 2017

#101: Robin Dreeke is former head of the FBI’s Counterintelligence Behavioral Analysis Program. His primary role, at the time, was to thwart foreign spies and  recruit American spies. That's not an easy task. To accomplish this, Dreeke needed to gain people's trust -- even when they had no reason to trust him. He spent years developing and testing systems on how to develop trust with others in high-stakes situations. Today, he joins us on this podcast to describe The Code of Trust, a set of practices that he developed during his days as a high-ranking counterintelligence expert.   This system is based on 5 simple principles: Suspend Your Ego Be Nonjudgmental Honor Reason Validate Others Be Generous   Tune in to hear him elaborate on each principal, and discuss how this applies to anyone who wants stronger, more trustworthy relationships at work and home. For more information, including links to resources mentioned in this episode, visit http://affordanything.com/episode101  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You can afford anything but not everything. Every decision that you make is a tradeoff against something else. So what's most important to you and what tradeoffs will you make as a result? My name is Paula Pant, host of the Afford Anything podcast where we explore this question. And today, I'd like to introduce Robin Dreak, who catches spies. Robin Drake is a 29-year veteran of federal service, including the U.S. Naval Academy and the Marine Corps. He was a senior agent in federal law enforcement. and until recently the head of the counterintelligence behavioral analysis program,

where his mission was to thwart the efforts of foreign spies. So he's a spy catcher. He was also tasked with recruiting American spies. So basically, a lot of what he had to do within his job was generate trust, because when you're trying to catch foreign spies or when you're trying to recruit talented people to become spies for the U.S., you've got to be trustworthy. You've got to be the type of person who's got people skills. Robin decided to inspire reasonable, well-founded trust among people by formulating this thing that he refers to as the Code of Trust. And the Code of Trust is a system that he devised and tested as he was doing years of fieldwork in national security.

And since he has developed it, he has now taught this Code of Trust to high-level examines. executives at Fortune 500 companies, to law enforcement, to CEOs, to academics, to people who work at think tanks. So the Code of Trust has been rigorously tested and has been taught to some of the highest ranking people across a multitude of industries. And again, the Code of trust, which we are about to discuss on today's episode, is a set of five rules of engagement. And if you follow these five rules, according to Robin, then you can inspire legit. legitimate, lasting, sustainable trust with the people around you. And so for the lives of everybody who's listening, you know, you and I may not be catching foreign spies, but we need to create

trusting relationships at work, at home, in every element of our lives. So let's talk to Robin. Oh, hey, and P.S. The Code of Trust is based on five principles. Number one, suspend your ego. Number two, be non-judgmental. And before I get to the last three, on the topic of suspending your ego and not being judgmental. All right, here's what happened. When Robin and I recorded this interview, we discussed all five of these principles, but the sound file got corrupted and we lost a lot of the interview recording from us discussing those first two points. So I am suspending my ego to tell you that, and I hope that you are going to be non-judgmental in hearing it, because the upcoming interview is going to be a discussion between me and Robin on three out of the five principles. So number three,

honor reason, be reasonable. Number four, validate others, and number five, be generous. Robin and I are about to talk about three out of those five. I hope you'll like it. It's a good interview, in my opinion. And yeah, hashtag ego suspension, unintention. All right, without any further delay, here is Robin on the Code of Trust. Robin, thanks for joining us. Hey, thanks for having me on, Paula. I've really been looking forward to this last couple of weeks. Oh, excellent. Excellent. All right, my first question has absolutely nothing to do with what we're going to cover, but just purely for entertainment value, can you tell us the story of the time that you got duct taped inside your sleeping bag and carried out to... In fact, I teach this content a lot, and that's probably, that's one of my bedrock stories of humbling moments.

So, yeah, no problem I can. So generally it goes in line with a question that usually comes about was, how did you discover? the Code of Trust. And I said, well, I discovered it as a series of events where you're giving humbling moments where it makes you say, huh, I must be doing something wrong. So what had happened was I was as a new Marine Corps officer and I was stationed at Cherry Point, North Carolina, I was getting ready to do a deployment out to the West Coast, out to the desert. And part of our exercises that we had to do to work up to it was we had to go down to Camp Lejeune. I was basically a combat air traffic controller. It's called an air sport control officer in the Marine Corps. And my job was directed aircraft to drop bombs in this bombing range the next day. Meet about 14 or 15 other second-wing tenants. Anyway, we're all sitting and sleeping in this very large canvas tent at night. And it was, in the book, we said it was really hot. In reality, it was actually really cold. So either way, I had the sleeping bag up over my head. We're sleeping on cots. There's about 14 or 15 in this large tent. And I had my sleeping bag up over my head. And luckily, I had my Leatherman multi-tool in

there with me because in the middle of the night, I started hearing a little shuffling, a little snickering and all of a sudden I feel myself being strapped in in my sleeping bag on top of the cotton and I feel duct tape going around me in the cot and getting nice and snug in there. And good natured laughing, there's no abuse going on, but all of a sudden I feel myself being lifted up. I mean, they're literally carrying me out of the tent now. And after about 20, 30 minutes of this being carried away somewhere, they set me down and they go laughing off and run away and I waited until it got nice and calm outside and make sure I wasn't getting itself in trouble. And luckily, I was able to pry my arm out of the top of the sleeping bag with my leatherman

multi-tool and cut my duct tape out and popped my head out. And I realized they had left me in the middle of the bombing range that were going to bomb the next day. So I was able to drag all my stuff back in to the tent. They're all laughing. Needless to say, they didn't do this to anyone else. It was a clear message. And this is one of those key critical things in life that is really, really important. And that is the difference between what we think we're projecting to the world and what the world actually sees when they see us.

And so that was just one of these moments in my life where I said, huh, I think I was a great guy that got along with everyone. But obviously, they were seeing something else because that type A hard charger was a little over the top. And I really hadn't learned what leadership really meant at that point yet. So the five rules to gain trust. Suspend your ego. Be non-judgmental. Those are rules number one and two. talk about the third one. Yeah, honor reason. And having, again, I approves your website and everything you do, and I'm enamored with it because I think it really overlaps well with what I do. And one of the

tenets of it, I think, is three is on a reason. Honor reason is about the ability to maintain cognitive thought during times of really where people tend to get emotionally hijacked, even through stress, anxiety, resentment, or influences from societal norms. They don't honor reason. They honor emotion. And emotions are fine, but I can guarantee you the cause and effect of everything. What honor reason does is it maintains that as long as you understand what your goals and priorities are, you understand the goals and priorities of others, you can now make very conscious choice and ask questions about what you're doing and what others doing that are actually going to help or hinder them achieving what they're actually moving towards and trying to achieve.

And so instead of saying, oh, I feel like doing this or I hope someone does this, those are emotional things that are setting people up for failure a lot of times. Instead of saying, wow, if I just do X, Y, and Z, that's actually furthering me being able to accomplish this. If this person, you know, if I ask them about what they're trying to achieve and I ask them, how is what they're doing helping them move forward to that, it actually helps them rationalize and remain cognitive as well. And how can a person, particularly for somebody who's listening to this, who is thinking at this moment, wow, I do tend to react emotionally to circumstances around me.

how do you go through the practice of ruling your emotions rather than being ruled by them? You know, for me, it came at a point when I got really sick and tired of being frustrated and angry at work about, you know, fighting battles. And I just said, I'm done. I'm letting go. And I started identifying at that point, one, I don't want to feel that way anymore. I don't want to feel resentment. I don't want to feel angry. I don't want to feel frustration because they're not. helping me move forward in the things that I want to move forward. And most importantly, as a leader,

it's not helping me help others be a resource for their prosperity because I have no clarity of thought. It starts with us trying to achieve a very, very specific thing. You know, like, I want to get promoted. I want to make more money. I want to buy this thing. Those are very, very specific in nature. And because a lot of other people are going to have input about how that is going to happen, you don't have a whole lot of inputs. In other words, you have less control. And when we have less control and we're trying to control, that creates that stress and anxiety. And that starts the whole process. So that's why you've got to step back, ask yourself when you start getting that emotional hijacking going, what am I actually trying to do and achieve?

In other words, why do I want to have a bigger house? Well, ultimately, what you're trying to do is you're trying to provide a comfortable lifestyle for you and your family. There's a lot of ways you can provide a comfortable lifestyle for you and your family. And this might not be the path. So if you can take that objective step back, you can honor a reason by asking yourself is what I'm doing, helping or hand. that, then it's easier to move forward. And you told a great story in the book about your father-in-law's wake, I believe it was. And it was a great example of a time when you could have been carried by your emotion and you held it together very well.

Yeah, you want to hear it? Yes, absolutely. Sure. Please share it with the listeners. So my father-in-law, who we all loved dearly, had passed away suddenly from my heart attack a number of years ago. My mother-in-law held a wake, well, it's actually before the wake and before the funeral, we're down in Florida. They had all moved from New York down in Florida years ago. So we're at this restaurant the night before. My mother-in-law got all the family together.

My wife's family is being New Yorkers where they're from in Long Island or half Italian and half Irish. This is more like an Irish wake. And so there's lots of, lots of festivities going on. We're extremely sad but celebrating my father's passing because, again, we love them dearly. But what I didn't realize was we had about 30 or 40 family members in this one side of this restaurant. We'd been there for a couple hours and the Irish were having a good time reminiscing about my father. And it had gotten a little loud and a little rowdy unbeknownst to me. And there's a gentleman behind me that I didn't realize was sitting there because I thought we had the whole side of the restaurant to ourselves. And I didn't know he was there.

And all of a sudden I get this pretty hard slap on the back and some four-letter expletives coming at me, claiming about how rude and how disruptive we were. and he's being pretty inconsiderate with his tone of voice. But in that moment where generally people are escalating things by countering and defending what they're doing and saying it's your fault that you're sitting here or, hey, we're in the middle of a funeral. I decided, you know, I immediately went into what I call science experiment mode. I knew that this was a moment.

Again, you asked how do you get better at these things? Well, you recognize an opportunity when they present themselves to practice the code. And I did immediately. I immediately asked myself, well, what's really my goal in this? Is it to defend the family on or? Is it to make a hard time for this guy who actually, he was twice the size of me, you know, all muscled up and he's sitting there with his date. Neither of them had wedding rings. They looked to be about, you know, 10 years older than me. You know, so it's easy to assess what their goals and priorities were. He's trying to get us a shut up so he can impress his date and have a nice date and look like the big man. My goals and priorities was actually, I got my kids running around. There's teenagers. There's little kids. You know, this is a family event. Instead of trying to try and the big, big man, the really goal and objective was to de-escalate. And so now the goal became, well, how can I inspire him to want to? And so I don't think in terms of convincing, because you can't convince people, I think in terms of inspiring people. Because when you think it in terms of inspiring people, you're really reversing it and making it all about them. And so I was thinking,

how can I inspire him to de-escalate? That's when I said, well, what are his goals and objectives? And what can I do to be a resource for him achieving him? And when he listened to his words, he said, we were, we were allowed and annoying. And you know what? We were. And so the first thing I did was I validated that. I said, you know what? You're absolutely right. We're loud. We're rude. We're and I'll tell you what I'm going to do. I'm going to go talk to the mansion right now and see what he can do to make this up to you. And by the, my father's funeral is tomorrow morning. And also I'm going to tell my family to quiet down because, you know, we were rude and obnoxious. And I really apologize for what we did to impact your night. It's funny. I really thought cognitively when I was doing this. I threw in that the fact that my father's

funeral is tomorrow morning because I wanted him to, I did want him to have context of what was going on in our lives because he didn't. But you can never make an excuse for your behavior because it becomes about you. So I consciously just through a fact in the middle of my train of thought where he's or is validating him and going to take some action the correct just to see what it would do. And immediately his nonverbal started de-escalating. You could see he was feeling a little bad about it. And that is okay because my goal was to make him have a great evening with his date and feel like a big man. So I then go over to the manager. I say to the manager, hey, I really apologize. We've been rude and disruptive. My father's funeral's tomorrow morning. And also, I'd hate for you to lose some customers.

because of my actions of me and my family, what can I do to help you make it up to them? And he said, oh my gosh, don't worry about it. We've been wonderful. We're so sorry for your loss. He said, I'll go take care of it. He now goes over to the couple and starts handing out some coupons for meals or something like that. I then go back over to the couple while he's talking with a manager was there. And I said, sir, ma'am, again, I really apologize.

I'd like to buy you a round of drinks for the inconvenience that I caused you tonight. And he just shook his head, you know, downtrodden and feeling a little low. And he said, you know, don't worry about it, brother. We're so sorry for to hear about your loss. We've already bought a rounded drinks for your whole family. Hope tomorrow goes well for you. And some example of here I am a type A. Meanwhile, my wife's cousin was like,

what's this former Marine FBI guy going to do to this guy with his pinkies? No, I'm not. I'm actually going to think about what's best for you. What are your goals and interests? And what I'm doing is what are my priorities? I want a de-escalation. I want, and then from there on, I made it about him. With honesty, transparency, openness, with no excuse.

excuses of behavior because I am 100% anti-manipulation, anti-deception. I'm probably the only FBI guy that works counterintelligence. I'll tell you that. But those things, if you start down the road where you're using any kind of form of manipulation whatsoever, which is nothing more than attempt of control with deception, you're not going to inspire trust. And once it's found out, you'll never get it back. So that's just a good example of how to exercise ego suspension is when you hit those moments, think to yourself, what am I really trying to achieve? And what am I about do and say, is it going to help or hinder what I'm ultimately trying to get to? So kind of suspend ego by focusing on the mission rather than, you know, rather than yourself.

Yeah, I call it the difference between the means goals and the ends goals. The means goals are those very specific things. Like, I want to win this battle. Well, in the ultimate thing, what you're trying to do is you're trying to win the war. To me, the war is very, very broad, emotional states of being. For me, the ends goals are very vers. I have three anchored ends goals, which I honor above everything else. Number one is happy, health. professional relationships. I will, in the best of my ability, I will never do anything either verbally or nonverbly to dishonor a good healthy relationship with someone. Second is, open honest, communications, and transparency, because you cannot have a healthy relationship unless

you have open honest and transparent on dialogue. And the third is I make myself an available resource or to prosperity of others with no expectation and reciprocity. Very key words in there is I make myself an available resource, meaning that I'm not going to impose myself on you. I'm not saying I want to help you, because if I say I want to help you, I'm actually demonstrating some air of superiority that I can do something better than you. And I don't believe that. Everyone just has different resources and I'm willing to exchange mine with yours. For your prosperity, prosperity, everyone defines it very, very differently at different stages in their life. Mine at this point is very easy. That's why I maintain happiness. It's simply healthy relationships, variety of activities and

health and food and shelter. And finally, no expectation of reciprocity. If you give with an expectation of reciprocity, the reason you're doing it is for self-gain. And that will undermine the code. So I let it go. So I have no expectations. Leaders don't keep a scorecard. And there you go. From there, under there, you know, prosperity for me and my family, protect national security, whatever it is. Those are also ends goals. But if you honor those three or four things, all those little minor means goals along the way, it transpires. Because once you have healthy relationships, everything flows from there. That's fantastic. Leaders don't keep a scorecard. I really like that. Yeah. Well, how many times have people heard, you know, the phrase, well, leadership is about everyone else but yourself.

It is, but how do you exercise it this way? You don't keep a core card. If you as a leader have a goal and objective that you're doing and which leaders do, I mean, that's why the first step in the code of trust is what's your goal. But then from there, the second half of that first statement is you flip in. So why should they want to? How can you inspire them to want to? And so what leaders do is they become a resource that a prosperity and furtherance of their people.

And this is how you do it. Because if you start doing things because you're trying to get promoted, You start doing things because it'll make you look better. You're actually just self-serving, and it's going to fall apart on you. Let's talk about the other two rules in the Code of Trust. So so far we've talked about suspending your ego, being non-judgmental, and honoring reason. What are the last two? Number four is validate others.

Another bedrock of human biology and genetics. As I stated earlier a little bit when talking about being non-judgmental, validation is really key to what human beings are looking for. And some people, you know, when they talk about rapport or or they think they're talking about validation, they're thinking in terms of flattery. And it's the furthest thing from flattery. It might entail flattering. Sometimes people say, hey, you know, comment on what a nice photo it is on their desk or what a nice blouse they're wearing a day. And I'm like, that is so surface and so transparent because it doesn't mean anything.

What validation is, validation is a much deeper attempt to try to understand the human being that you're engaging with. And you have to combine it with being non-judgmental. In other words, how did this person arrive at who and what they are today and where they are in front of you? You know, the choices they made, the background they have, whether it's their biology, their genetics, or their ethnicity, their gender, their orientation. All these things give you an amazing optic on who they are so you can know how they want to be interacted with. And so validation is really the deeper seeking to understand without judgment. And a lot of times it doesn't mean that you're agreeing with someone. Matter of fact, most of the time it doesn't mean agreeing.

Agreeing with someone doesn't even come into play with it. Although it can, but most of the time it's just seeking to understand non-judgmentally. Because human beings, that's what we crave. I mean, every time we have a conversation with someone, all we're doing is we're exchanging anecdotes. We're exchanging stories, ideas, and thoughts and opinions. And what we're doing is we're seeking that the other person we're talking to is going to accept those ideas, thoughts, and opinions for who we are.

We'll get a head tilt and nod, a smile. Because when that happens, our dopamine on our brain is releasing. It's all the pleasure centers are firing saying, this person is good for my survival because they accept me for who I am. They accept me part of the tribe. That's why validation is so powerful. Again, these things aren't a sequence, all these five steps. They're a homogeneous morphing together of all of them working together. I thought it was interesting in the book when you talked about how the difference between validation and approval.

And specifically, you actually made a comment that really stuck with me where you said that the approval can actually be risky because then it puts, the person at the risk of disapproval. It puts that person at the risk that your opinion of them may change. Whereas if you validate somebody non-judgmentally, that is true always. Yeah. People more times than not are looking to be understood, not agreed with. And just agreeing with someone can also come across as very patronizing as well. And I've often been asked if I've ever been accused of being patronizing because one thing I won't do with someone, especially in critical situations, is argue context, you know, because everyone, everyone's got a different opinion of what events are from their personal context.

And so I won't argue it. And someone wants somebody so you're not going to argue. What are you just patronizing them and agreeing with them? I said, no, I'm seeking to understand them. There's a big difference. Because the difference between patronizing, patronizing is just a surface attempt to placate. Validation is that attempt to, well, wow, you're saying something like this, wow, I've never heard it quite put that way before.

Help me understand. How did you come up with that? It's really unique, as opposed to, I don't agree with that. You mentioned that you don't argue context. For the sake of those who are listening, can you please, can you define what you mean by context? Yeah, context. Say, you know, you witness an event in the news, you witness political events, world events, or even events in your home at work, you know, where something happens and someone has an opinion about it. And someone voices that opinion about it to you or publicly or somewhere else.

And it differs from yours. What most human beings try to do at that point is correct them. human beings we have this incessant need to correct other people. And here's another guarantee of human behavior. If you correct someone, I guarantee you they're not going to listen to you. Their shields are going to be up and they're going to be defensive about their position. And in most of these cases, what you're trying to do is you're trying to inspire them to want to listen to your ideas. And if you argue context and context is just their optic, their perception of what that event was because of their background,

their experiences, their gender, their ethnicity, all the things that make them who they are, the experiences they have between ages of 9 and 19 that form because all the emotional impulses that hit the brain before the prepud the loams fully formed. All these things impact how each individual sees an event from their perception. If you start arguing perception, you start arguing context, I guarantee you shields are going to be up. And since everything I've ever done for the last 20 years with the FBI and nine years before it with the Marine Corps is to try to get shields down information flow because when you have information flow, you have transparency, you have transparency, you have situational awareness.

When you have situational awareness, you will now have, you cannot reason. And so in order to do that, you cannot argue that context. So I won't do it because it's useless. What a waste of time? You know, if really the only reason people are arguing is because they want someone else, you want someone to listen to your ideas. So instead of trying to think in terms of how can I convince them to listen to me, the best thing you can do is think in terms of how can I inspire them to want to listen to me.

And the way you do that is don't argue context and then ask them their thoughts and opinions about what you think. because I'll tell you what, you want to plant seeds with someone. The way to plant seeds and ideas with someone is not by telling them what you think and what you think they should do. Ask them what they think about what you think. Because when you ask questions, it's going to rattle around in that brain a long time. It has to.

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Thanks to LinkedIn for sponsoring this podcast. Remember, when you support our sponsors, you make this podcast possible. LinkedIn.com slash Paul. Paula, P-A-U-L-A, all lowercase. Thank you. Let's talk about the fifth of the five codes of trust. Sorry, the fifth of the five rules to gain trust. Right.

Ah, there are principles, rules. They're all together. It's being generous. There are plenty ways of being generous, and this is not like, hey, get out your wallet and be generous. It could be. But really being generous is being generous with your time, be generous with your validation,

being generous with your ego suspension. In other words, it's taken all the four things that you've just done and doing it to excess. And the funny things, some people can think that the code is about, you know, you might slip into the conundrum

of being a carpet and being walked on. And never, because what keeps you from being walked on with all these principles is the fact that you started out with understanding what your destination was. And you're moving cognitively towards that destination, thinking in terms of,

you know, what I'm doing is it helping or hindering, and now we're flipping it and making it about the other person first, understanding what their goals are and making your source of a resource for them without that expectation of reciprocity. And when you add number five, when you're being generous, one, you're ensuring that you're putting others first. And also you're triggering the biological and genetic coding again for what's called reciprocal altruism. Ancient tribal man, you get 10 people go out on a hunt. One of them makes a kill. He comes back. Everyone intuitively knows. He should share. Because if he doesn't share the likelihood of him being

prosperous later on, should you become sick, lame or injured, is extremely low to none. And so we're genetically coded to reciprocate through generosity, as well as it's just good practice for leaders to give more than they take in. And there seems to be a little bit of cognitive dissonance there. Generosity must be, giving must be done without any expectation of reciprocity. And also, the way that society generally functions in the broad aggregate is reciprocal generosity. Yeah, it's a funny thing that it's hard to get away from expecting reciprocity because we fear we're not going to have what we need if we give too much. That's just our genetic. That's, you know, Mavlov's hierarchy of needs, you know, hitting in there.

But in reality, when you let go and you take care of others first in excess, first of all, you're fostering relationships and you're fostering trust. And the more relationships and trust you have, the likelihood of you having enough resources for your own prosperity starts. hitting a parabolic curve and spiking upward. So you don't even have to ask for anything in return. People are just just because you're having communication, they know your needs and they're going to give it to you, and you're not going to ask for it. And this is where patience hits this whole thing as well.

Some people want to give. Some people don't want to give. Some people want to give today. Some people want to give a year from now. Some people might not ever want to give. And all of it is completely fine because it's all about them, their tempo, what they're willing to do, the relationship that they're willing to have.

And as long as you're generous, Because again, what are leaders? Leaders are resources for the prosperity of those that they are leading. And leadership's not about tighter imposition. It's about how you, it's how people feel about you. It's about what you do about others. How do you practice generosity while also maintaining healthy boundaries? I get asked this a lot in different ways. I get asked, well, you know, Robin, if you're practicing the code of trust, you know, you have too many friends. How do you deal with all that? Two new relationships. I have never. ever had that problem, Paula. There's a funny flow that happens because people form deeper relationships of trust when you have a few things in play. One, you have a limited time together. You know, other people you have limited time. You know, you only see each other once a month, once a week, once a year, because of logistics. So those you don't have to worry about. And the ones that, I mean, I can honestly tell you, I probably got at four or five, you know, high levels of trusted

relationships. And not that everyone else falls short of it. It's just that the logistics, the overlapping of priorities that we both have is limited, are the resources we have to foster what each of us is working on at that time becomes limited so that everything always continually has that ebb and flow. And I've never had to exceed my ability to keep those relationships healthy because everyone's interest throughout life continually ebb and flow. And so does everyone else around you. And so the ones that you have that overlapping period for a while, it becomes very natural. And then all of a sudden, someone gets a promotion, someone gets a new job, someone moves, someone has kids that didn't have kids before, someone gets married. I mean, all these things keep ebbing and flowing around us. And as long as you

don't have that expectation, that things are going to remain the same, and you fear no loss, you don't hold grudges and you don't keep a scorecard, all those relationships maintain healthiness, yet they will ebb and flow out of your life. And these are the ones, and everyone's experienced this before. These are the people in your life that you haven't seen that you had as a child or during high school or something that they're your closest friends and you haven't seen them in a year, five years, 10 years, but all of a sudden you see them again and you picked up right from where you left off. When you are exercising these kinds of things in the code of trust, that becomes every relationship. And so there's never a drain on you or drain on your resources because really

it becomes this majestic of and flow as your life and their lives naturally happen. How do you have evaluate the level of trust that is being given to you by people in the outside world, family, friends, colleagues. Another great question, Paul, because that's what we're focusing on book 2-1. Yeah. So this one is the code of trust. The next one we're calling right now decoding trust, in other words, assessing trust and others. When I was first asked that question by a few people, it kind of stumped me a little bit because I don't assess trustworthiness in others. and here's a new paradigm that I'm really introducing with this. People have traditionally thought of trustworthy, people being trustworthy as a black and white type of thing.

They're either trustworthy or they're not trustworthy. And it's a lot more deep than that because there's no one that is completely untrustworthy in everything they do. And there's no one that's completely trustworthy in everything they do. It's actually a scale based on numerous factors. And basically, I mean, I could go into depth a lot of depth on this one, which I won't. I don't because I'm still writing it all out right now. But it really comes down to this. I don't assess for trustworthiness.

I manage my expectations when engaging others. And here's how I do that. One, I'm going to take it for total granted that you're going to act in your best interest all the time. And I'm also in order to understand and manage my expectations, what you're going to reciprocate or even potentially reciprocate to me is I need to understand what your priorities are. If I understand what your priorities are, I understand what you define as process. prosperity, and I understand you're going to act in your best interests. I now understand and can anticipate what you're going to do in a lot of situations that we're going to collaborate on.

And now what my job is is to introduce my priorities and my goals and things that are in my best interests that overlap with yours. And if I'm introducing things that are overlapping with viewers, and I know what yours are, and I now offer resources for you to achieve what it is that I've identified you want to achieve, I know what you're going to do. you're going to do it because why wouldn't you? I mean, it's the most common sense logical thing in the world. Now, if, now all of a sudden, I offer you the resources for you to achieve what I've discovered are your priorities and what's good for your prosperity and you don't take those actions, because it's not a healthy relationship. There's deception in there.

You weren't transparent with me. You weren't clear with me on what you're doing. Okay. I now know that that's not what you were doing. You have a hidden agenda. That's okay too because I manage my expectations when I deal with individuals. I mean, think about this. There are very, very few people in our lives, and sometimes they're families, sometimes they're not, that are actually vested in your prosperity unconditionally.

In other words, they will take any action that you need for you to be successful and prosperous in whatever you try to do with no expectation of reciprocity. I assume no one is like that. And it's not a pessimistic way to look at people. It's a very realistic way to look at people because here, and why do I do it like this? I don't want to be angry at anyone because that's a negative emotion. It's going to cloud my judgment. It's not going to honor reason. And so because I refuse to be angry at anyone or frustrated or let down, I love engaging

with people. I love interacting with people. And the best way to do that is manage your expectations on what they're going to do. Most of the time, they're going to do things that are in their best interest. The greatest thing is the greatest relationships in life happen when your best interests overlap with their best interests. So why not discover those first and work towards that? And why, I guess, at the risk.

of a very basic or elementary question. Why does trust matter? Because I realize this when I, you know, a couple years ago, when I discovered the coded, I've been doing a number of these things. I mean, I've been teaching and living this stuff for a while. But until you start codifying things, it makes it more linear for you. And what I did was back in, I think it was 2013, 2012, 2013, sequestration hit the government. My team was eliminated. And so I was going to step down out of management, go back to the field and do this on the street stuff again. But one of the last things that someone asked me to do was write another article for the law enforcement and they asked me to write it on counterintelligence.

And I was like, well, well, counterintelligence. What can I write about that? I said, ooh, let me write about what I do when I'm doing a consult for someone, you know, in the country for a counterintelligence investigation. I took a step back and I said, what I'm actually doing in each one of these situations, whether it's these all these hokey, spooky spy stuff, double agent operations, recruitment operations, false flags. I mean, all stuff's real.

It goes on. And I asked myself, what am I actually doing? Every time I'm doing one of these things, and that's when it hit me, I was strategizing trust. What I quickly realized, once I gave that label and meaning to it, anytime you're doing anything in life, it's going to involve another human being unless you're sitting on top of Mount Everest and never going to interact with another human being again. Everything in life is about relationships and doing something with or in collaboration with someone else. And no one's going to do anything without some semblance of trust. So that's why it's so important. Matter of fact, my son and my daughter who are being extremely successful, my daughter's in college for nursing, my son just got an Enable Academy.

Every time something goes on in their lives where the natural reaction is, wow, look how awesome I am. The first thing we do is we sit down and we take an account. Who was it? Who are the relationships that we have that made this happen? Yes, you have great skills, but great skills without trust and great skills without relationships are completely useless. So let's honor the relationships. Let's give thanks to the people that actually help you facilitate. this. And so that's why trust matters most in everything. I mean, you can't even,

think about this, you can't even drive down a street without trust. You can't drive down a street without trusting that the car in the other direction is not going to hit you. So there's always trust somewhere. All right. Well, thank you so much. Is there, is there anything that I haven't asked that you want to emphasize? Paula, I could go on for days. No, you did a great job. I mean, we hit the tip of the iceberg, really. You know, tell me a little bit more about your mission and what you're doing. I'd love to tie this into that, if I could, before we leave. Sure, absolutely. I mean, a lot of the people who are listening to this interview are people who are interested in what everybody, I would say, is interested in doing a better

job of managing their money. Now, for some people, that means paying off debt and just having a financially secure life. For others, that means building investments and accelerating towards a very early retirement. And by very early, I mean retiring in their 30s or 40s. So unusually early as compared to the average American. So the shared commonality is that people want to manage their money better. And that desire is not in a vacuum. That desire is because of some type of better life or improved lifestyle. Yes. All right. Good. And that's what I thought it was, Paul. Because I want to make sure that one of the things that, as you know, too, you know, when you're facilitating and chatting with peers and people with like mind, you want to make sure they have tools. So here's how I can translate what we just talked about today into that because I truly believe in exactly what you're doing.

I mean, I turned 50, you know, in a couple months and I'm done. I don't have to do anything else. And I could have done it earlier, but, you know, I got a government pension, so why not? Congratulations. Thanks. So as I've discovered, and I think everyone can attest. to this, the more resources you have, the better off you are and the better options you have. And so honoring reason and really identifying those ends goals that you have and the means goals,

let them stay aside and those ends goals. For me, prosperous, comfortable lifestyle for my family and I, that is an end's goal and it's a very, very broad ends goal. And there's lots of ways that can be achieved. And as long as you maintain cognitive thought process and not get emotionally hijacked by how you can do that, be open to other people inputting on how you can do that because how do you do that? You have more relationships, the more trusting relationships. The more you've made yourself a resource for others, the likelihood of others being a resource for you, at least with ideas, thoughts, all these opinions about how to do things. That's where this thing really comes to being. And the other thing that was really good for me, I feel very prosperous in my life right now.

And it's because I'm doing things like you've said, Paul, and because I'm honoring the code here. because one, I've clearly defined for myself what prosperity means, and for me it's very, very simple. Food, shelter, health care, and comfortable lifestyle. And there's lots of ways that can be achieved. I'm very flexible to how those things can be achieved because if you have healthy relationships, there's lots of resources for that. And the other thing, too, that's helped this maintain cognitive thought process. I fear no loss.

There is no loss in my life. There's just change. Change means I've mastered the thing I just finished. I meant to move on to the next one. Can you elaborate a little bit more on the I fear no loss? There is no loss. There's only change. Yeah. I mean, I've witnessed, and I think we've all witnessed this. I see so many friends and acquaintances that, you know, a simple thing like retirement. I have people and friends that are absolutely holding on to their job, title, and position with all their might, creating stress, anxiety, and discontentment, anger, fear because they don't want to let go of that title and position. And all I keep in the problem, I said, you realize all you're doing is, is your path is clearly moving you somewhere else.

And the harder you fight against it, it's going to get harder and harder. It's not going to get easy. And what's the definition crazy? Doing the same thing again, expecting different results. You know, I said, all you're doing is resisting your movement forward. Stop, let go. I mean, we've all had the situation in life where you wanted to achieve something and it wasn't working. So you fought harder.

You fought harder. You started getting really frustrated. And finally you got so frustrated, you just totally let go. And a second you let go, oh, wow, solution is right over there. That's what this is. That's exactly what the code is. It's letting go before you got too frustrated. Because the sooner you let go of the way you thought was going to work,

the more relationships you have, your network's going to tell you how to get forward to where you're trying to go. So being a type A hard charger that's always moved forward to the objective, you know, steamrolling everyone along the way. I'm telling you what, that does not work. Well, thank you so much, Rob. And I really appreciate the time that you've taken to spend with us. Where can the listeners find you?

All over. My website is www.com, all one word. You can follow me on Twitter. It's at R-D-R-E-E-E-K-E. I'm on LinkedIn, Robin Dreak, and I've got a Facebook author page. I'm really pretty much all over. You can always feel free to try to contact me through my contact info on the website as well. I'd be happy to hear from you.

Nice. Well, thank you so much. My pleasure. Thank you so much, Robin, for joining us. Now, what are some of the key takeaways that we got from today's episode? Well, here are a few that stood out to me. Number one, Robin talked about, and this is sort of a theme throughout the conversation, directing responsibility inwards. Other people may treat you in whatever way in which they do, but your job as an individual is to direct responsibility inwards. Don't think, ah, that person's a jerk. Think, what can I do in order to, you know, in order to. to positively influence the situation. Can I validate this person a little bit more? Can I suspend my own ego so that I can serve this person, regardless of how they're treating me?

Can I exercise some way of being less judgmental about this situation? Like, the theme throughout everything within this conversation was, uh, starts from a bedrock of radically directing all responsibility inwards. And that's something that we covered in episode. 66, which was when I chatted with my friend Emma Patee, who's a brilliant real estate investor and writer and very good friend of mine, the theme of our conversation again was taking radical responsibility. It's something that I keep wanting to come back to again and again on this podcast because I think that the bedrock of success for anything you do in money, at work, in life, starts with taking a radical level of responsibility for the situation. And that doesn't necessarily mean that you're at for everything, you know, sometimes it's not your fault, but it is your responsibility. And so again, in this conversation with Robin, in order to garner the trust of others, begin by directing responsibility for all situations at yourself. Another theme that came up is that triangle between thought,

behavior, and action. So a lot of what Robin talked about, you know, suspend your ego, practice non-judgmentalness, be generous. Okay, that's great. But how? How? How do we actually put that into practice? And as Robin kept saying, you know, the answer to each time I asked how was, well, it begins with awareness. So start with awareness, meaning start with thought and then let your thoughts influence your behaviors and actions. And the more you do this, the more it becomes a positively reinforcing cycle, because your actions also influence your behaviors and thoughts. You know, each point on this triangle influences the other two. So, start the chain reaction somewhere, and the more you do so, the more that that chain reaction will continue to feed itself. So that's another takeaway that I got from this. So that was another lesson that was reinforced by today's interview. Another thing that I really enjoyed about today's interview was when Robin made the following remark. I don't think in terms of convincing, because you can't convince people of things. I think in terms of inspiring people. Because

when you're thinking in terms of inspiring people, you're really reversing it and making it all about them. Don't try to convince people, inspire people. It is far better to lead through example and through inspiration than it is to try to control a situation through brute force. If you approach a situation with resistance or with a wall or with an iron fist, you will be met back with resistance. But if you flow into something, then you will be met with flow. I realize that sounds a little esoteric, but there is no other way for me to say this. If we approach the world with resistance and with walls, then the world reflects that back to us. And conversely, if we don't, if we approach the world with a soft hand, with flow, then we receive the same in return. So that

was what I heard from Robin's remark about, you know, don't try to convince people, don't try to rule people, inspire them. Let them come along on their own terms and in their own time. And that coincides nicely with some of the other lessons and themes that we kept repeating throughout the interview. Validate others. Suspend your ego by focusing on the mission rather than the self. Give context, but don't make excuses. And very importantly, leaders don't keep a scorecard. Leaders don't keep a scorecard. It's funny because on the surface, this interview is about earning the trust of others, both in work and in life. But really, this is beyond just a conversation about trust. This is a conversation about creating calm leadership.

And that calm leadership comes from being mission focused, suspending your ego, being attentive to others, taking responsibility, and role. with the punches. And if you do those things, you are likely to do better at business, to have better relationships, to have that joy and that feeling of prosperity and security, which are the ultimate end goals. So that's what I took from the conversation. I would love to hear your thoughts. Please leave a comment at afford anything.com slash episode 101. That's afford anything.com slash episode 101. Oh, hey, would you like a free copy of Robin's book, The Code of Trust? Well, guess what?

We've got three copies to give away. All you got to do, you've guessed it, is go to Instagram at Paula Pant. Look for the Instagram post that has a picture of the book on it. When you find that post, leave a comment. You can say whatever you'd like. We will pick three random commenters and send you a free copy of the book. Congratulations, by the way, to all of the listeners who won. copies of the secret lives of introverts, as well as you are a badass at making money,

which are two previous books in which we've also done these giveaways. These things are fun. I love hearing from you. It's a great way to find out what people think of these interviews and just to get the community together. And you get free stuff. So cool. It's like a win, win, win. Anyway, head to Instagram at Paula Pant, find the photo of this book. And leave a comment. In order to win, you must be in the United States, or at least the mailing address at which the book is sent to, must be somewhere in the U.S. And your deadline for leaving a comment is Friday, November 17 at 5 p.m. Pacific time. If we choose you to be a winner, we're going to contact you by Instagram. We're going to send you a message on Instagram.

So just check your messages to see if you hear from us. If you enjoyed today's show, please leave us a review on your favorite podcast player, whether that's podcast addict, overcast, Stitcher, YouTube. however it is that you are tuning into this, please leave a review. And while you're there, hit subscribe. Coming up, we have an interview with Will Bowen, the author of A Complaint Free World. This is Paula Pant, host of the Afford Anything podcast. Thank you so much for joining me. Catch you next week.