Afford Anything - The Loopholes That Destroy Our Ability to Form Habits, with Gretchen Rubin

Episode Date: September 29, 2020

#278: Does this sound like you? You want to exercise, but you can never find the time for a workout. Eventually, you grow tired of putting exercise off. You commit to working out every morning. You become so enthusiastic, you buy new gym clothes for the occasion. Your enthusiasm carries you for five days, and on day six, you’re swamped with work. You promise yourself you’ll exercise tomorrow - after all, taking a break for one day won’t hurt. And then … you never get back on the wagon. The cycle repeats. Most habits and routines start with good intentions. But good intentions aren’t enough to carry you through tough times. Good intentions aren’t enough to overcome the excuses you’ll make, either. That’s what today’s guest, Gretchen Rubin, is here to explore. Gretchen Rubin is the New York Times best-selling author of The Happiness Project, Better Than Before, and The Four Tendencies. She joins us on the podcast to discuss the loopholes that we use - the excuses that we make - when it comes to breaking bad habits and forming good habits. Why is this important? The more aware we are of loopholes, the better we can resist them. For more information, visit the show notes at https://affordanything.com/episode278 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You can afford anything, but not everything. Every choice that you make is a trade-off. And that doesn't just apply to your money. That applies to your time, your focus, your energy, your attention. That applies to any scarce or limited resource that you need to manage. Saying yes to something implicitly means saying no to something else. And that opens up two questions. First, what matters most in your life?

Not what does society say should? But what genuinely matters to you? And second, how do you align your daily decisions and habits and behaviors? in a way that reflects that. Answering those two questions is a lifetime practice, and that is what this podcast is here to explore. My name is Paula Pant. I am the host of the Afford Anything podcast.

Today, we are replaying one of my favorite episodes from the archives and interview with New York Times best-selling author, Gretchen Rubin, where she talks about habit formation. How do you build the habits that turn into results? How do you build the habits that turn you into the person that you want to be? And what are the flaws, the fallacies, the excuses, the rationalizations that get in our own way, that keep us from being our best version of ourselves? We're going to talk about all of that in this interview with Gretchen Rubin.

This originally aired as episode 40 of the podcast. Believe it or not, we aired this episode back in 2016. And what she talks about is probably more relevant today than it was even back then. So here's a preview of some of the loopholes that we're going to talk about. The false choice loophole, like, I can't exercise because I'm so busy with work. The idea that there's a false dichotomy between these two. The moral licensing loophole of, oh, I've been so good, I can make an exception. The lack of control loophole, like, oh, I just can't help it.

The this doesn't count loophole, like, oh, this doesn't count. It's a weekend. The questionable assumption loophole, like, well, I'm so far behind on retirement savings. Why even bother starting? the fake self-actualization loophole, the planning to fail loophole, the one coin loophole, just this once won't hurt. Like, we talk about all of those loopholes, all of those rationalizations that keep us stuck in these patterns that we don't want to be in.

Our higher mind, our better selves, wants to do better, but we are smart and we are experts at rationalizing ways that we don't actually want to be. And so, if any of these loopholes resonate with you in this episode, Gretchen is going to share her strategies for overcoming these excuses and developing good habits once and for all. So if you are the type of person who is really good at talking yourself out of doing the things that you know you should do, if you're the type of person who's really good at justifying why you didn't take action today, and guilty, I am too, you know, if you're the type of person who lets other people pure pressure you or talk you into doing bad things, things that you know better

the things that are against your better judgment, if you do that stuff more often than you would like to admit, you will benefit from listening to this interview. So here she is, New York Times bestselling author Gretchen Rubin on the loopholes that destroy our ability to form habits. Hi, Gretchen. Hey, it's great to be talking to you today. It's so good to be talking to you, too. I'm so excited because there are a lot of questions that I've been wanting to ask you, particularly about habit formation, which is something that I've been thinking about a lot lately. Excellent. That's my favorite subject. I'm obsessed with it. So we will dig in. Excellent. Now, Gretchen, as a little bit of background, the concept behind afford anything is that

you can afford anything but not everything. And that's true, not just of your money, but also your time, your energy, any scarce resource, which is why aligning your actions with your values is so paramount. But like many people, you know, my actions don't. always align with the type of life that I want to create. You know, goals point in one direction and actions lead elsewhere. And your book, better than before, has so many amazing eye-opening explanations as to why that happens. And your chapter on loopholes really resonated with me. So I'd like to I'd like to start by talking about some loopholes. Well, I have to say that's one of my favorite subjects is they're so funny. I don't know about you, but like, I mean, I had thousands of examples.

It just killed me to cut down to the ones that made it into the book because we're just so ingenious and imaginative about coming up with loopholes for ourselves. I just, I got the biggest kick out of writing that chapter. Oh, I was, you know, I was like if loophole spotting is an Olympic sport, like I'd be Michael Phelps. Yeah. No, I've had conversations with people where they will go, because I was constantly when I was writing it, I found 10 categories, but of course, I didn't know there were 10 categories. So it took me quite a bit of analysis kind of to figure out, you know, what they were. And I would hear people, and I would be keeping count in my mind of which ones they were invoking. And I regularly heard people, say, four or five, six loopholes in a single, like, conversation.

You know, they're just throwing everything at it. Yeah, because I think you're absolutely 100% right. It's not that we don't know what would make us happier or more creative or more productive. It's that for some reason we're just not able to execute. And what we know perfectly well would make us feel better. And so why not? And you're right. Loopholes is a big part of that.

Can we, could be the one coin loophole. Yeah. Oh, my goodness. That you just, that's my life bio in that one loophole. Well, it's funny because most people have like a couple favorites. Is that your go-to loophole? That is. That is absolutely my go-to. Can you acquaint the listeners with the One Coin Loophole?

It's one of my, I love teaching stories and Coens and parables and aphorisms, things like that. And this is a very famous teaching story from, you know, ancient times. And the way it goes, and this is how the One Coin Loophole gets its name, the question is, can One Coin make a man rich? And you would say, no, One coin cannot make a man rich. but what if you gave a man another coin? And what if you gave a man another coin? And what if you gave a man another coin? At some point a man would become rich,

and you would say that he'd become rich because one coin had made him so. And the relevance of this to habit is that one of the one coin loophole is one of the most dangerous loopholes because it's always true, which is that if you look at anything that you're doing as a habit,

if you're going to the gym, if you're working on your novel, if you're meditating, if you're going for a bike ride, if you're, you know, you're leaving your cell phone off between 6 and 9 p.m. Whatever it is, having a cupcake. Any one instance of the habit is insignificant. You can always say to yourself, well, why should I wear my helmet today on my bike? What are the chances I'm going to get in a life-threatening accident today?

There's almost no chance. Well, I'm going to go to the gym today. What a difference is one day at the gym make? It makes no difference. Oh, my PhD thesis is due in three years. What difference does it make if I go to the library today? It makes no difference. And yet, so one coin is nothing.

But the fact is the only way you get the benefit of these habits is one coin plus one coin plus one coin. And the name of this teaching story is the growing heap. And so when you're thinking about a habit, you really have to keep your mind focused on the growing heap and not on the one coin. Because any one coin will always let you off the hook. But you have to think, well, the only way that I'm going to have the habit of exercising, The only way I'm going to get my PhD written, the only way I'm going to be protected if I get in a bike accident is if I have the one coin plus the one coin plus the one coin.

But it is a great loophole because it's pretty much universally applicable. You have to be very well, because people will often also kind of toggle, and I don't know if this is your experience, you kind of toggle back and forth. So you're like, oh, it's super important to me to read to my children. I think that's really, really important. But tonight I'm too tired.

Right. Oh yeah, I'm totally committed to eating healthy. I'm really going to give up sugar. But today's somebody's birthday at work, so I'm going to have a cupcake today. Exactly. What difference does one cupcake make? Exactly. Yes.

So how do you defeat that? You have to really focus on the growing heap and what you want. And like what you've talked about, about the values, like really identifying your values. It's like it's to really recognize that you're, that you're, and this is the idea of the strategy of loophole spotting is that when you recognize that you're invoking a loophole, that itself kind of helps you. because I think a lot of times with these loopholes, they flicker through our minds so quickly. We're off the hook before we even notice it.

And so just by saying to yourself, well, you know, I said that I wanted to bring my lunch to work every day. But here I am not bringing my lunch to work. Or, you know, I said I wanted to stick to a budget. But here I am making an excuse for myself charging something for $200 on my credit card. Like I can't just say like, oh, well, you know, it's the beginning of the month. I mean, like, really recognizing that you're doing something that's in conflict with your values. Just the recognition of it for many people will help them, kind of stop them in their tracks. Because a lot of it is just that this happens.

You've done it before you even realize what's happening. Right. And so part of it is just more conscious awareness of what we're doing and the choices that we're making. Because there are, like you said, you can afford anything but not everything. There's choices and priorities and values that you want to live up to. And so the more you've identified that and see, well, if I do this, then that means I don't have that. Yeah. Right. Right. Exactly. And I think that was why I loved your chapter on loophole so much is giving something a name helps you recognize it when you're doing it within your own life.

Oh, I'm a huge believer in vocabulary. Once you have a word for it, it's like all of a sudden you can see it so much more easily. Absolutely. I think that's so true. Nice. Let's talk about the moral licensing loophole. That's a good one too. They're all good. The more light thing is when you let yourself off the hook because he's been so good. So you're like, well, yeah, I thought I was going to quit sugar, but I've been so good for five days. I think today I get to have a day off or, you know, oh, I said I was going to bed at 11 p.m. But I've been so good about going to bed at 11 p.m. I think tonight I should get to stay up and watch, binge watch the last season of Game of Thrones.

Yeah. And so it's like, because I've been so good, then I get to have X. You know, and that's just, my favorite was a friend of mine who said, As soon as I've lost this 10 pounds, I'm going to reward myself with a big slice of cake. And it's like, why would you do that? Like, that's just not, that's not going to give you the results you want. I love your answer to her, too, when she said, well, then what else is going to be my reward for losing 10 pounds? I know.

And you said, it's the fact that you've lost 10 pounds. Yeah, the reward for a habit should always be found within the habit. The reward for doing yoga is how great you feel after yoga. The reward for having written your novel is, oh, my gosh, you're not. wrote a novel. You know, the reward of working on your PhD thesis is like, oh my gosh, it's going to feel so great and go in there and talk to my advisor about the fact that I finished that chapter on time. Because if these habits didn't have benefits for us, don't do it. If you don't feel any benefit from it, don't, like, give it up. And I constantly, weirdly, as somebody who's kind of a

habits bully, I'm counseling people to abandon a habit. Like, somebody was like, oh, I got to stop chewing chewing gum. And I was like, well, I just want to say, like, why would you want to stop chewing gum? I'm not saying that you shouldn't. I'm just asking why you would. And she's basically like because my boyfriend says I should. And I was like, okay, well, let's look at that. Because if your boyfriend is like, it bothers me when you chew gum, well, then maybe you want to do it because out of consideration for him, that's legitimate. But if your boyfriend is like, it's not healthy, it's like, well, let's say, is there anything unhealthy about doing gum? Because if there's not anything, and he's just saying that because like he read some articles 15 years ago that got stuck in his head that may or may not be right.

I mean, so don't, so always say yourself, what is the value that I'm going to get from making or breaking this habit? Am I going to feel more energetic? Am I going to get more done? Am I going to have a life that's closely to my values? Or is it just, you know, like give up coffee? People are like, oh, I should give a coffee. Why should you give up coffee? I'm not saying you shouldn't give up coffee.

I'm just saying, why should you? Because a lot of people just walk around and say constantly, oh, I should give up coffee. There's a lot of good, there's a lot of research supporting coffee. Now, if it makes you sick or you can't sleep or whatever, then sure, maybe you need to tackle it. But I think sometimes people too easily buy into this idea that I should do something. Right. Make sure your habit is worth creating before you create it. Yes, because there should be a reward within the habit. You should get some sense of satisfaction or a sense of greater health or energy or connection with other people or whatever it is. And if you're like, well, there's no reward to that habit. Then it's like, hmm, then why are you doing it exactly?

you know, I mean, because it is sort of weirdly easy to be told that you should do something. You know, oh, I should be able to get up at 8 a.m. Why should you be able to get up at 8 a.m.? I don't know because I should. And it's like, well, you don't have to be at work until 10, so get up at 945 if you can get to work on time. You know what I mean? It's just like whatever. So one of the things that there's so much variation within people.

I think a lot of times we lose sight of that. It's like we're a lot like other people, but we're also very different from other people. And so you don't want to think that you should be doing something just because it works for other people. Right. You know, I want to come back to loopholes later, but actually, now that we're talking about rewards, I kind of, I want to move to that since we're discussing it because you warn that rewards can be dangerous for three reasons. You know, it's because you stop doing a particular activity for its own sake, because it requires a decision, and because it creates a finish line. Yeah, the rewards are tricky because people, that's like their go-to

thing. It's like people are like, oh, if I want to get myself to do something, I'll create a reward for it, and that'll make me do it. And it's like, no, not so much. Have you, have you, have you paid attention to like what happens when you reward people? Because it often has very negative effects, and you're absolutely right. Like, what you're trying to do is to form a habit, you need to be very, very, very cautious about rewards. Right. So why is that? Like, why is it that a reward can have that opposite effect. I mean, you know, why is it that something that you would otherwise do for its own sake now becomes just a means to an end? Well, you know, it's funny. It is just this, it's this mechanism that kicks in that when there's a reward for something, it begins to feel

like either an imposition or a deprivation. You know, like, why would I go to yoga if I didn't know I was going to get my scone? And then pretty soon it's like, well, I was going to go for that run, but it was really, really cold outside. So I think I should get my scone anyway. Or I was going to go for the run. But I was going to go for the run. I hurt my foot. So I can't run. So still I like to get my scound. You know, you get into this. also with habits you want things to just happen automatically you don't want to have to use a lot of decision making or self-control you want to be like do you reward yourself for wearing your seatbelt do you give yourself a treat every time you brush your teeth no because these are just things that

you do they're just part of your day they're not an imposition they're not a deprivation they're not anything out of the ordinary that requires some kind of extraordinary reward and one of the things that a mistake people often make is to think like, well, I'll reward this for a while, and then I'll kind of let go of the reward, but the habit will just continue. That is not what happens. Often, as soon as the reward ends, the habit ends, and sometimes the habit ends even before the reward ends. So it's not a good, you can't say to yourself, well, every time I go for a run, I'm going to give myself a beer, and then eventually I'll just sew in the habit of running that I'll get rid of the beer. That's not, that just doesn't happen like that. But the one kind of

you can do that is a really good kind of reward is a reward that takes you deeper into the habit. So you might say to yourself, well, I've been doing so much yoga lately. I need a new yoga mat. Well, the only good that a yoga mat is is for doing yoga. So it's not a reward that's going to, that's outside of yoga. And also, it's true that if a person does a lot of yoga, they might need a new yoga mat. So that makes sense. But if you're like, oh, I'm doing so much yoga, I get to have an iPad. It's like, okay, what? Why is that a connection? And I, heard of a brilliant solution at a corporate gym, you know, corporations that was trying to get people to exercise. So at this place, they kept track of how often you went to the gym. And that's

the strategy of monitoring. That's a good idea anyway. So, but the, so if you went 75 times in a year, you got a reward. And what was your reward? Next year, free. So the reward for exercise was more exercise. That's a good reward. Or you're like, oh, I'm going to make, I'm going to, you know, I've been spending so much money eating out during the workday. I'm really going to be committed to bringing lunch from home. Okay, well, maybe you're going to splurge and buy yourself like a cool lunch bag that's like, you know, super like high tech or like has a cool design. Well, that's only good for a person who brings their lunch to work. So that's a reward that takes you deeper into the habit.

And then it makes that habit more fun because that's the strategy of convenience. Things that feel more fun or more easy or more pleasurable just attract us. So that's a good idea because then it's like, oh, or I bought myself this great set of knives. And now it's so much more, it's so much easier to chop the salad that, you know, or, you know, make the sandwiches and whatever that I'm going to bring. Well, that takes you deeper into the habit. But if you're like, oh, I'm going to buy a pair of, I'm going to buy a pair of new boots, well, that's not helping.

That's not fostering the habit of bringing lunch to work. That's not going to help you. Right. That makes a lot of sense. You know, for years, I told myself that, you know, oh, if I lose, if I lose this weight, then I will treat myself to a fancy dinner. I was doing exactly what your friend was doing with the chocolate cake. And then I switched it and I said, you know, if I lose all this weight, I'll buy a whole bunch of clothes that would fit the body that I have once I lose a whole bunch of weight.

And sure enough, that helped, you know. Well, because that's a natural consequence. If you lose this weight, then you do need new clothes because the old ones don't fit. So that's a reward, but it's only a reward in that it's a consequence. It's like a natural consequence of the behavior. that works. Exactly. And plus, then I have to maintain that weight in order to continue to fit into those clothes. Exactly. Well, and then it's the whole thing about kind of really embracing that as part of your identity that, like, this is who I am now. Because part of the, one of the things that can be a little

bit scary for people with habits is that the idea of a habit for most things is that you're going to do it indefinitely. And that can kind of make people a little bit panicky, because it's like, it's not that you're doing, you know, it's easy to say, like, well, I'm going to quit sugar for lent, or I'm going to train for the marathon or I'm going to do national novel writing month. Because it's fun and kind of people can get, you know, like psyched up to do kind of like extreme behavior for a limited amount of time. There's fun to that. I do that all the time myself.

I get a big kick out of that. I totally understand that psychology. But the problem is for most things, it's not that you want to write a novel in a month. It's that you want to write regularly forever. It's not that you want to train for the marathon. It's that you want to go, you want to exercise regularly forever. It's not that you want to quit sugar for lent. that you want to eat healthier forever.

And that can kind of freak people out. But you really have to think about how am I going to create a habit that's going to help me over the long term? Because it's no fun to lose the weight and buy the new clothes and then say, oh, well, now I can go back to eating normally. And then gain it all back because that's what it means. When you eat normally, this is what you weigh. When you eat this new way, then this is what you weigh. And you sort of have to wrap your mind around that. Some people do it by thinking, like, day to day, this is just what I'm doing today.

they find that very helpful. Or like keeping a chain, like every day, like crossing off a day so that they're making a chain of habits that they've kept. Things like this are very, like a lot of people find very kind of encouraging and supportive because it kind of reminds you like, I'm just going to put one foot in front of the other and that's how I'm going to stick to this good habit. Right. The concept of avoiding finish lines, you know, and embracing something as a lifestyle change.

rather than a temporary thing with a finish line. Actually, that theme came up a lot in the Happiness Project as well, because one of my favorite parts was towards the end when you talked about the importance of resolutions rather than, quote-unquote, goals that have a finish line. Yeah, well, it's interesting because a lot, in the Happiness Project, I didn't understand. I hadn't focused in on habits.

And so now when I read a lot about, like, when I look back at the Happiness Project, I'm like, I was sort of groping around. I was dimly aware of some things that later became much clear to me. But one of the things that became really clear to me as a result of the happiness project was people kept saying to me, but how did you get yourself to do these things? And I was like, well, they made me happier. So like I just decided to do them and then I did them.

And they're like, but how did you get yourself to do them? First, I just was like, I don't understand what people are talking about. And finally, it was enough that I was like, I need to pay attention to this. Because these people are raising an issue that I don't feel. So what is it that's different about me from about them? Because we're having different experiences, and that was a big thing that I tried to understand. We'll come back to this episode after this word from our sponsors. The holidays are right around the corner, and if you're hosting, you're going to need to get prepared.

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Big Bank Muscle, FinTech Hustle. That's your commercial payments. a fifth, third better. Let's jump back to loopholes because there are two more that really struck me that I wanted to talk about. And I think that they'll resonate with a lot of the listeners as well. One is the false choice loophole. Laura Vandercom was recently a guest on this show.

She says, like, we all have the same 168 hours a week. And so my question to you, well, first, please describe the false choice loophole for the audience. But then second, given that time is limited, how do you reconcile the inherent limitation of time? with the false choice loophole. Yeah, I love Laura Vaynerkamp's work, so I'm sure it was a fascinating interview because her stuff is so thoughtful and interesting about time. So the false choice loophole is to think like, well, it's either this or this. And this comes up in our lives in all different ways.

Like it could be something even like, well, I can have a few intimate real friends or I can have a bunch of shallow superficial friends. Well, is that really the choice? You know, somebody once said to me, well, I can't decide what to do with my career. Do I stay in my boring, safe career, or do I risk everything and have a life of freedom and excitement? And I'm like, is that, I mean, I think you know if that's the choice that you feel like you're making, but usually it's not so clear that it's so black and white that this is choice A and

this is choice B. And this comes up in Habits lot, and I know this one well, because it is my go-to. If the one coin lymph is your go-to, this is my go-to. My go-to is I don't have any time to go to the doctor because I'm so busy writing. Exactly. Okay, really? Because like going to the doctor is going to take an hour and a half. half. And I have all day long to write. Like, or, you know, or be like, well, you know, I've been

so busy at work. I have no time to exercise. You're like, well, the president of the United States exercises. So I think you can probably work it in in some way. And so it's to say, well, I can't, oh, you know, I can't, oh, I have no time to exercise because I'm so busy with my kids. Okay, well, your kids are in school all day. Like, you know, I mean, so, but a lot of times we sort of, again, we don't look at the choices that we're making or we don't look at the way we frame things. And it just, we just, we just sort of, it slide through our minds. Oh, like, oh, of course I can't eat healthfully. I'm traveling.

Really? You can't, what? No. Is that really the choice? Like, stay home or eat a bunch of junk? Probably not. So just identifying the choices that you've juxtaposed and saying, like, is this a true choice?

Right. But I hear this from my blog readers a lot, particularly when it comes to time. You know, people say, like, well, I have kids. kids, therefore I can't start a side hustle. Yeah, yes. I think you made an excellent point, which is that it is true that time is finite. And I think sometimes people, like, I've gotten emails from people where they're like, you know, I'm in graduate school.

I have a full-time job. I have three kids. And yet I have no time to do my like silent meditation for an hour. And I'm like, well, like you say you can do anything but not everything. And there are two choices that need to be made. The thing about a false choice is that it's not a conscious, mindful set of values that you're pursuing. It's that you're just sort of like, well, kind of throwing off your hands and thinking,

well, this is just not possible. It's usually something else. For instance, something I hear from a lot of people is I can't exercise because I have no time to do with my hair. It's a big thing for women, right? Because like dealing with your hair, for some women, it's not a big deal. And for some women, it's a huge deal. Okay, but there's a lot.

So maybe you can't deal with a shower and exercise and, you know, deal with your hair. But the thing is maybe there's ways to exercise where your hair doesn't get. messed up. There's many ways to exercise where your hair is going to be fine. Right. If you, if you acknowledge to yourself, because if you're like, it's either my hair or exercise, and you're like, well, I put all this time and effort into my hair, I'm not going to exercise and mess it up. But if you're like, okay, well, how can I get, it's not a false choice. I just need to think about it more deeply and think, like, well, how can I manage this issue? Because a lot of times there are solutions to a false choice, but you have to sort of say to yourself, I have these two things. How do I make it work? So, yeah, okay,

I have a full-time job and I have kids and I want to have the side hustle so my time is limited. Okay. Well, and this is Laura Vanderkamp's whole thing, which she's like, you have more time than you think. And like somebody who's like, oh, yeah, I just binge watch House of Cards in a week. You're like, okay, I think you might have time put an hour into your side hustle or whatever. You know, like a lot of times we're not very realistic about how we're using our time. And that if we use our time thoughtfully, we might have more time than we think. And certainly a huge amount of what I write about and better than before is about managing time.

because it is finite. It is precious. And unfortunately, one of the things that I most ardently argue is that almost everybody needs more sleep. So there goes an hour or two for most people. They're like, oh, yeah, maybe I should go to bed at midnight. But I think it comes always back to this idea of really thinking through what is it that you want and what is it that you can do to get there?

because a lot of times when you stop and really think about it, there are solutions. But you have to have that moment of saying, like, well, if I want to start this business and I don't want to quit my job because I don't, I can't make that transition to a bubbly. Okay, well, then how could I do that instead of just saying like, well, it's one or the other. Right. Moving from I can't to how can I? How can I? How could you? Yeah. And sometimes it can help to think about it, like, what advice would you give to somebody else?

Sometimes, like, pretending that you're, like, in the third person. Or I do this with myself in terms of, like, treat yourself like a toddler. So I sometimes think of myself, like, as this, like, little toddler. And I'm like, well, you know, Gretchen can't be up too late because she really needs your sleep. And that's too late for Gretchen to have dinner because she needs to eat before 9 p.m. Or, you know, Gretchen really feels the cold, so she can't be outside too long. Because the thing is, like, you, when it's a time, you. toddler, like, you deal with it because you are going to pay the price. And it's the same thing

with myself. So, you know, I'm like, I got to, I got to respect my own boundaries because I, I act like a toddler, even though I'm a full-blown adult. So I don't take care of the bottom line. Right. I like that one. Treat yourself like a toddler. Yes, yes, yes. Can you talk about the fake self-actualization loophole? Because I hear that one from my blog readers a lot, especially. Okay. What's form does it take with your blog? You might die tomorrow, so spend your money today. Actually, a lot of times I hear this in the form of a question. You know, I hear it in the form of like, wow, how is it that you're able to, you know, sacrifice enjoying your youth for the sake of having a great retirement when you're 70? That's like a combination of the false choice and the fake self-actualization.

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. If you and I sat like brainstorm for an hour, we would not have been able to think about that's imaginative, right? Yes. Right? It's the false choice, right? It's either like drudgery and boredom and like sacrifice today or freedom and excitement and the youthful joad de vivre today. Right.

Now, fake self-actualization is when something is posited as an embrace of self or a, you know, celebration of the moment in a way that seems clearly. worthwhile. So you might say to yourself, life's too short not to live a little, or life short, eat a brownie now. I want to accept myself just as I am. The fact is, and I think everybody realizes this, is that one of the great tensions within happiness is enjoying today and making the most of today, because it is true that today is all we have. But then it's also about preparing for the future, because the life lived in the current moment is not going to be a good life overall. And so the tension is how do you prepare for the good life? How do you fill your life with things that are going to make you happy over the long term,

that are going to give you a long term happy life? And sometimes that means you're going to deprive yourself of something in the present, or you're going to ask yourself to do something arduous in the present. So I really want to be a writer, and so I'm going to force myself to read a really boring book about how to write and sell a nonfiction book proposal. Or I really want to become an anthropologist, so I am going to study for the GMAP. because that's what I need to do in order to start down that road. It's not that fun right now, but it's going to get me where I want to go in the long run. And fake self-actualization is to say,

like, now is all that matters, which is to ignore the fact that a lot of the things that you do in the present are going to have consequences in the future. And you're not going to be happy about that. So if every time somebody says to you, do you want a brownie or a cupcake, and you say, yes, life's too short, not to eat a cupcake, you're going to end up eating a lot of cupcakes, and you're probably going to regret that in the long term. And the fact is, you'll be there then too. You know, like, you're who you are, you're Paula now, and you're going to be Paula six months or now, too.

And so you have to keep that in mind. And another thing, and this is another one of the central tensions with then happiness, is that we want to accept ourselves and also expect more from ourselves. Right. And there is no clear boundary. Like, all of us need to decide for ourselves, like, what is it, where is it that I need to just accept that this is who I am? And where is it that I can really expect myself?

to push and to expect more for myself to do something I'm not comfortable with or that feels difficult or challenging. And it's hard sometimes to identify that. But I think, you know, it's like I can accept myself as a person who loves restaurants. I'm a foodie. I love to go out. I love to be with friends. I like to have an evening out in New York. And it's like, okay, that is true about me. But can I also expect for myself that I'm going to be able to live within a budget and I'm to be able to find a way to have fun in a way that's not going to make me feel really guilty and anxious going forward. Like, can I expect that for myself? And I think in a lot of cases, we can. Because fake self-actualization is really, and the way you know if it's fake or if it's

real self-actualization is how you feel about it later. Because if it's really, like, if you're like, you know what, it's our anniversary, this is a big moment. I want to remember it forever. We're going to spend X, Y, Z, you know. And then we did, and it was amazing, and we'll never forget that night. You look forward to it with pleasure. You look back on it with pleasure. Fake self-actualization is like, oh, life's too short and not to eat a brownie. And then two hours later, you're like, I cannot believe I had that brownie.

It wasn't even that good. You know what I mean? Yeah. Because there wasn't any, the satisfaction wasn't really there. And usually if you stop and ask yourself, you know perfectly well. We know what's going to feel good later and what's not going to feel good later. The fake self-actualization is that loophole that, like, it just, it darts into your mind at just the right minute to let you do what you want right now. And then, sadly, it vanishes, leaving you feeling like, I wish I'd made a different choice.

One thing that I liked about your book is that a lot of books that I read give the standard advice, like start small, repeat daily, embrace one thing at a time. And you offer 21 strategies for new habits. So let's talk about a few of those. The thing about the 21 is you hit on exactly the point that I most wanted to emphasize for people, which is a lot of times people feel like a failure or they feel like something's wrong with them because they've tried something that everybody's like, well, this is what experts say to do or this is what works. And then it doesn't work for them and they beat themselves up and feel lousy. And the fact is like maybe that's not the right way for you. And that everybody has to really say, well, what kind of person am I? What appeals to me?

What's going to work for me? What's worked for me in the past? because there's a lot of, I think people don't realize how many options there are. 21 almost sounds like too many. Like people freak out and they're like, oh, you know, like, tell me three. You can pick and choose. And, you know, if you're trying to change an important habit, you might use five or six simultaneously, which is much easier than it sounds like.

But there is no one-size-fits-all solution because people are different. And for one person to get up early and do something is great advice. And for somebody else, that would be terrible advice because they're a night person who's that they're most productive and creative and energetic much later in the day. So they definitely wouldn't put that important task at 7 a.m. You know, because they're going to be feeling much better at 4 p.m. Right. And but I think there's just this urge that everybody feels like,

I'm just going to hand you a slipper paper and this is going to have the answer. I'm going to tell you what to do. And there's just, it just doesn't exist. There isn't one right answer. Right. And that's where self-knowledge comes in. Yes, that's where the self-knowledge is so important. because sometimes the very thing that it's essential for one person is actually counterproductive for someone else.

And you see how you get in a pickle because it's like you're a parent and you just keep saying to a child, you have to do it this way. This is the way. Or you have a boss who says like a cluttered desk means a cluttered mind. And it's like, well, maybe that's what it means to you. But for somebody else, this is like abundance lovers versus simplicity lovers. Simplicity lovers thrive in an atmosphere of kind of calm and cleared spaces. and clear, you know, emptiness and few choices and spare. And then some people really thrive and bustle and choices and commotion and buzz.

And it's what works for them. And it's like, it's not that one person's right and one person's wrong. It's just that people do better in different environments. And so, and it's not that one person should prevail. It's like, well, how do we create an environment where everyone can thrive? But it's not that like, because it works for me, doesn't necessarily mean it's going to work for you. This is a perfect lead-in to talking about the four tendencies. Oh, yeah, I love the four tendencies.

So, yeah, can you just start by briefly explaining each tendency to the listeners? Yes. So I'll explain this. Most people get it from my brief description. There is a quiz. If you go to happiercast.com slash quiz, you can take a quiz that will tell you what you are, upholder, questioner, obliger, or rebel. Almost 500,000 people have taken a quiz, but most people know what they are.

And on my podcast, Happy with Gretchen Rubin, we did an episode on each tendency. So if you want to hear, you know, like if you're immediately enraptured. But what this is, is it explains how people react differently to expectations, how you respond to an expectation. Turns out to be very important. Now, we all respond to outer expectations, which are things like a work deadline or request from a spouse. And then there are inner expectations, which are things like your own desire to start a

side hustle. your own desire to keep the New Year's resolution. So upholders readily meet outer and inner expectations. So they meet the work deadline. They meet the New Year's resolution without much trouble. They want to know what's expected of them and they want to do what's expected of them, but their expectation for themselves is just as important. Then there are questioners.

Questioners, question all expectations. They'll do something if they're convinced it makes sense. So they hate anything arbitrary or irrational or inefficient. Their first question is like, well, why would I listen to you? you, why should I respect what you're saying. If something meets their idea of a valuable expectation, they will meet it without any trouble, but they will resist anything that doesn't meet their standard. So in a way, they make everything an inner expectation, because if it meets their own internal standards, they'll do it. Then obligers. Obligers readily meet outer expectations,

but they struggled to meet inner expectations. And I got my first insight into the obliger type when a friend of mine told me, I don't understand it because I know I would be happier if I exercised. And when I was in high school, I was on the track team. And I never missed track practice. So why can't I go running now? Same person, same behavior. When she had a coach and a team waiting for her, she had no trouble showing up. But when it was just her own expectation, she struggled. So it might be that you're incredibly productive when you're at work, when you have a boss and supervision and deadlines and colleagues counting on you. And then you're sort of like, but why is it that I'm totally paralyzed and procrastinate and can't get anything done when I'm working on my own projects.

You might be an obligeer. Then rebels, rebels resist all expectations, outer and inner alike. They want to do what they want to do when they want to do it in their own way. If you ask or tell them to do something, they are very likely to resist. They don't even want to tell themselves what to do. Rebel is the smallest tendency and obliger is the largest tendency. That is the tendency that the biggest number of people. Obligers and also questioners. But obligeers is a biggest. Yeah, I am a textbook obliger. Who are you? Oh, so much. I think that's why I have such a loophole problem. Yeah, well, yeah, and questioners also have trouble with loopholes. Once you realize that outer accountability is the crucial piece, it's very simple to find, I mean, I think,

and again, obligers have been, are incredibly ingenious in how they find ways to create outer accountability, but you sort of have to realize that's the missing piece, because I think a lot of time, and I'd be curious enough, this is your experience, a lot of times obligers blame themselves. Why is it that I have so much low self-esteem that I always put others first? Why do I do everything for everybody else and I never make time for myself? Like, they kind of blame themselves or actually there's something kind of pathological about it, whereas it's like, all you need is that are accountability. I'm like, you're never late for a client. It's not that you don't have self-control or that you don't, somebody said to me, I'm lazy. I'm like, how can you say you're lazy? Have you ever dropped the ball at work?

And she's like, well, no. And I'm like, but I never go to. the gym. I'm like, it's not lazy. It's you need utter accountability. So work out with a trainer, take a class where they'll charge you if you don't go and the teacher will notice if you don't show up. Work out with a friend. He'll be annoyed if you don't show up. Go out with a dog that will pee all over the house if you don't take it out. I mean, there's so many ways to solve it once you realize that what you need is that outer accountability. I think of everything in the book, that is the thing where the most people have been like, this is the key thing that has helped me change my life, is realizing that that's what I need is outer accountability. Because a

lot of times questioners and upholders and rebels don't understand that obligeers need that and they're not helpful. Right. Exactly. Because especially as an upholder, for example, you know, you don't necessarily need that outer accountability. And so it doesn't occur to you that that's imperative for some people. No. And in fact, I've heard from people where like an obliger was saying how she had an upholder boss and she was saying it's really hard for me because the upholder boss says things like, You know what? When you have some time, would you like, you know, like learn this software program and install it? And she's like, I don't respond to that. Right. No supervision. There's no deadline. I'm just supposed to like do it. Because to an upholder, it's like if I say that if I say you should do this and you say yes, I will do that, then to me it's like that's like that's going to happen. And I don't feel like I should have to supervise you. And but that's not realistic. And so I think once you see the framework, you say like, well, it's not excessive that a person needs accountability or deadlines. That's just what. they need to be able to do their best work. So fine. Or also like with, but like with an, like one thing that's funny with questioners is questioners have a lot of questions. And it's hard for them to get with a

program that their questions aren't answered. But that exhaust and drains other people often. And they will complain about the question. Like, can't you let it go? We've already figured this out. And so I, you know, like for a manager, you might well say like you're talking to a roomful of people. You could say, okay, well, we're using this new kind of software. And, you know, we did a little, We did a lot of research about why we're using this, and you know, you're all going to be expected to make a transition in two weeks. Now, if you feel like you've heard enough and you want to go back to your desk, go back to your desk, if you would like to stay here and hear more information about why we made this choice and why we think it's going to help, stay here and I'd be happy to answer your questions. A good number of people will go off. They don't need to hear all that explanation, but the questioners are going to push back until they get their questions answered.

But it's like if you just give everybody what they need, then you can save time, save energy. save like anger and resentment and because a lot of these you know in rebels they don't do well with accountability so if you if you need accountability you might think like oh well the more oh i want my child to practice the violin like i'm going to make a star chart and i'm going to like make a calendar and i'm going to say like you can't do that you can't go out and play unless you into a rebel it's like the more you tell me what to do the more i have to show you that you're not the boss of me so i might have wanted to practice the violin because i'm really curious about the violin, but the more my mom is telling me to practice, the more I'm going to resist. So if you've got

a rubble kid, you've got to back off and say, like, well, you know what, you seem really into the violin, and you're not going to get good if you don't practice. And so, but it's, you know, and if you're not going to practice and you're not going to learn, I'm not going to pay for lessons because it's just wasted money, but it's totally up to you. You know, whatever, whatever you want to do. And then it's just like, okay, well, do I want to practice the violin and get good, or do I not want to? But if you try to give them a lot of accountability and supervision, you're going to drive them away from that behavior because of their rubbleness. We'll return to the show in just a moment.

Can you change what you are? Like, when I was reading these, I thought, I would really like to be an upholder. I feel like I would get a lot more done if I was. But I am practically a caricature of an obliger. Yeah, I love that. I love that, right? You're a textbook. Well, you know, it's interesting about type obligers.

They are like to type O because they get along with everybody the best. But you're asked such an important question. Can you change? And so all of the tendencies have strengths and weaknesses. So I wouldn't say that one is better and one is worse because they all include people who are highly successful and also people who are big losers. And there's broad and all of them. And I don't think you can change. I think that these are hardwired and I think it's futile to try to change them.

I think you would spend, I don't really think it's possible and you would expend a huge amount of energy, psychic energy and mental energy trying to make a fundamental change. Whereas in fact, if you just accept what you are and deal with it, that's quick and easy and you can get right where you want. If all you need is out of accountability, that takes 10 minutes to set up, like, oh, I'm going to go run with a friend instead of trying to run with myself, problem solved. Instead of like saying like, I need to change my priority. I mean, like, is that even possible? Anyway, it seems incredibly difficult. And when in fact you can just change your environment to suit yourself. Now, I do think it's true that with time and with wisdom and experience, we learn how to manage our tendencies better. And so I think that people can do

better with their tendencies as they understand what the limitations and weaknesses are. And you see this with obligers. A lot of obligers, even though they don't consciously realize that it's outer accountability, they've set things up in their lives because they somehow realize that that's the architecture that allows them to succeed. So they know of something that's important to them. They need to build that in in some way, even if they're not, they can't put a label on it. Or like questioners, you know, sometimes questioners are seen as being like not being team players, being undermining, being sassy to teachers or the bosses. And so they learn with time that you can't say things like, oh my God, why are we switching

to that software? They say things like, it's interesting that you pick the software. I would really like to know more about this choice because it's going to help me implement it more effectively, right? It's the same thing. Like, I want to hear your reasons and your justifications. But with time and experience, they've learned how to present them their tendency in a way that allows them to get along better with other people. So I think you can change and adapt to it.

But I don't think your fundamental nature and your instincts change. I think the obligor, there's always that tension between outer and inner. It's just like just do the easy thing and manage it instead of trying to change, I think. I want to move on. I want to talk about the clean slate. You've mentioned that oftentimes if you can wipe the slate clean, like for example, if you're moving, all of your triggers, your cues have disappeared and you now have a base to build on it. And the clean slate, it is a super powerful strategy. In fact, speaking of moving, when people are trying to quit smoking, they often say if you're moving, that is like the best time. And when they look at people who have managed to make significant habit changes, a very high percentage are associated with a physical move because it is, it does wipe away everything.

but it doesn't have to be that big. It can be a new relationship, like a new boss or a new sweetheart or like a new puppy. It can even be like funny things like moving, like rearranging the furniture or I heard the hilarious story from a woman who, so her thing was that she would pick up fast food on her way home from work every night. And she was like, I've tried everything to change this habit. I cannot change it. It is like the car.

It's like Herbie Love Bug where the car is just like moving on its own volition. I'm like completely helpless in the face of this. I cannot change this habit. And then she got a new car. And you know how new cars have that super clean kind of like hospital level sterility? And she just thought like the idea of the smells and the packaging of the fast food in her car just felt wrong. And so she said in this car, I will never eat fast food. I will never go to a fast food restaurant in this car.

And she said she drove home without any hesitation. And it was never a problem again. because it was something about that new car. Because you're right, there's a lot of disorder and disorderliness associated with it that might, or you're like, I want to go to the gym, but I don't have a gym. So I have to research a gym, and then I have to sign up for a gym. And so how am I going to go to the gym? Sometimes what helps with that is to keep a habit symbolically.

So, like, let's say you want to go to the gym every day, and you're doing really, really well. And then, like, some loved member of your family is in the hospital, and you're just, like, at the hospital all day long, and like you're just not going to go to the gym. But what you could do is you could walk around the block two or three times. And that's like a symbolic holding of the habit. It'd be good for you anyway because it's energy and change and sunlight. All these things would energize you.

But it would also symbolically hold the habit for you. Or like you're like, okay, I'm not going to eat. I'm going to bring lunch from home. When I start my new job, I'm going to bring lunch from home every single day. But then you can't for one reason. But so maybe you're like, okay, I can't technically bring lunch for home. but I'm not going to eat this X kind of food, which is the kind of fit I'm trying to avoid. I'm going to have this other thing, which is going to sort of symbolically stand for the healthy meal that I'm going to bring from home.

And the other thing to your point is like sometimes people feel like if they beat themselves up for screwing up or slipping up, you know, having a bad day, that if they really beat themselves up, they're going to kind of energize themselves to do better next time. But what research shows is that actually those people do worse. Right. And the people who do best about kind of getting back in the saddle that could have it are the people who show compassion to themselves who say things like, well, you know, it was not my best day. Or, you know, I learned that lesson the hard way. Or, you know, well, next time I go to an office party, I'm going to have my plan, you know, and kind of think about, well, what can I learn from this? Like, what loophole did I invoke or like, what safeguard did I need to put into place? But not being too hard on themselves. Because everybody, you know, you're just like, well, you know what? I wanted to do the clean slate, but it was just too much for me. I'm like packing. I can deal with it. So, okay, like, now what do I do? Okay, well, that was one strategy that's, but there's 21 strategies. So one did not work for you. You got 20 others, you know?

And so it's like, well, it was a cool opportunity, but, you know, you'll move again. You'll get a new job. You'll get a new car. You'll get a new, you know, new friends. New opportunities will arise for transitions. You know, and you said that in the book, too, that people who beat themselves up and feel a lot of guilt and shame for not adhering to their habits. You know, the research shows that they actually do worse than people who forgive themselves. And that really struck me because, you know, there's a lot of literature out there.

So I procrastinate a lot. And, you know, there's like literature out there about the good side of procrastination like Adam Grant's book originals. Well, I dispute that. I have to say. I think procrastination by definition is when you feel out of control of your world. Oh, I was just going to say, I've been intentional. avoiding doing any kind of reading about the good side of procrastination because I haven't wanted to give myself justification.

Interesting. Yeah, it's like loopholes. Loopholes of a month. Yeah. To me, procrastination is when you want to work on something and you know you'd be happier if you worked on something and yet you can't make yourself. Right. And things are getting worse and worse.

That's just a bad feeling. And it's somehow not making you feel bad and it's not really procrastination. Because to me, that is the definition of procrastination is when, for some reason, it's causing pain. But there's one thing that I think confuses people about procrastination because there's marathoners and sprinters and procrastinators. So marathons are people who start early and like to work slowly and steadily. And they often do not like to work up against the deadline. They like a lot of cushion. That's me.

I'm a marathoner. I feel like starting early, having lots of time really unlocks my creativity and a me to be my most productive. But then there are sprinters, and sprinters are people who like working up against the deadline. They like the intensity. They like, you know, maybe working long hours. They feel like that's when their ideas crystallized that. They feel like that's when their creativity flows. And I got the insight into this when I was talking to a friend of mine and she said, oh, you know, because I was saying like preparing speeches because she was going to give an important speech. She goes, oh, I never prepare anything. Like I'm thinking about what I'm going to

say, like when they're micing me up backstage and it drives my staff crazy, but that's the way I get my good That's an extreme example. That's an extreme example. But the thing about marathon, and then there's procrastinators. And procrastinators kind of look like sprinters from the outside because like sprinters, they're working right up against the deadline and they're working long intensely. But this is the difference between sprinters and procrastinators. Sprinters like to work that way.

They feel like that's how they do their best work. And so if they look back on what they've done, they think like, yes, I did great. That's how they prefer to work. Procrastinators don't feel good about it. They feel full of regret because they think I could have done a better job if only I'd given myself more time. So they're not working that way because they choose to and because that works for them. They're doing that usually because of anxiety. Something about a process is making them feel anxious.

And so in order to make themselves feel better to soothe themselves, they turn away from whatever is making them with something else. Now, turns out one of the most dangerous forms of procrastination is working. So somebody will turn away, oh, I feel anxious about working on a stander report. so I'm going to go clean out my fridge. Or I feel anxious about thinking about making these networking calls, so I'm going to do more research under my possible career. So I don't look like I'm procrastinating because I'm working, but I'm not really working on the task that I have set myself

and that I think is what is the most valuable use of my time. But the thing about procrastinators and sprinters is that it kind of confuses people because from the outside they can look a lot of like. And so sometimes sprinters are like, oh, it's amazing to work at the like, Deslin. And this is how, you know, teams do their best work. Like my sister's a TV writer and a marathoner. She works for somebody who was a sprinter.

And he believed that's how people did their best work. So he would artificially engineer kind of sprint emergency situations because he thought that was how teams did their best work. Now, to the outside, people would say like, oh, well, he's just procrastinating. No, he was doing that very deliberately. Now, it drove her crazy. It's a question about whether that was a good strategy for a whole team of people. But he was doing it mindfully because that's what he believed.

It wasn't a matter of procrastination. And so I think it's very important. Because the thing about procrastination, if that's the problem, and maybe you can say whether this works for you as a procrastinator, which certainly gigantic numbers of people are, is to use the strategies of scheduling, the strategy of monitoring, the strategy of convenience to say like, because a lot of times once the work begins, the anxiety drops. Once I start working on the annual report, once I've done like an hour's worth of work, my anxiety drops because I'm like, I've started it. like I'm in it a little bit. I've made some progress. Now I feel okay about it. Now, okay, I'm going to do it today.

Now I'm going to do a little bit more tomorrow. And I see myself making progress. So I'm not panicky. But what often happens is the panic grows and grows and grows as the deadline nears until finally the need to complete their task is so overwhelming that it cannot be denied. And so in a horrible wreck of anxiety and time pressure of the procrastinators doing the thing. Oh my gosh. Of course they hate that.

Like, that's a nightmare. So the thing is just to start early and to say. say like I'm really going to force myself to do it. I'm just going to schedule this time. I'm going to put it on my calendar just for an hour. You know, maybe it's even, I'm just even going to make a list of what I would do when I actually start working. Like, whatever it is that's going to get you feeling like I'm putting one foot in front of the other. Because once the work begins, then procrastinators tend to find it much easier to continue, especially if they have plenty of time. Yes. Yes. Yes. Exactly.

Yeah, but yeah, I don't get this. You are like, oh, I get so much done when I'm procrastinating. I'm like, well, I can get a lot done, but the question is, am I getting done what I need to get done? Because in the end, like, that's what needs to get done. You know, you can do a lot of different things. But if what you need to do is complete your PhD thesis, like there's no substitute for that. Right. Certain point, that work has to be done.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's good to know that at least beating yourself up over it or feeling guilty about it is, documented to be counterproductive. And this is a perfect example because the negative feelings, like one of the things they've shown is like women who feel very anxious about their weight will try to make themselves feel better by overeating. And gamblers who are worried have money troubles and money worries will soothe themselves by going gambling. And the thing about procrastinating is you're anxious about a task. So what do you do to make yourself feel better?

You procrastinate more. You're like, I don't want to work on it right now. I'm going to work on it later because I'm too anxious to work on it now. This is more of the same. Like, it's just a down. You're just digging yourself in deeper. And so by, like, relieving, like, don't beat yourself up so much. Okay, you know what?

You don't feel like starting that annual report. It feels so burdensome. So today, it's just a day to make a list, you know, just look up some stuff online, you know, start, open up a document with a title, you know, get some initial figures, like, figure out the five people you're going to talk to, maybe send an email or two. Okay, but now you've started. And so, you know, it's like, be easy on yourself. It's a big job.

I don't feel like doing it. it. Okay, well, show some compassion to yourself. Give yourself a big pat on the back for having done the least bit of work. Because it's by doing that, it's easier to continue. In the happiness project, you talk about, like, the premise of the book is that if you perform the actions that correlate with happiness, you may feel happier. You know, you feel how you act rather than vice versa. You know, most people kind of assume that you act in certain ways because of how you feel. And you kind of started this project, started the experiment based on the idea that you might be able to feel a certain way if you acted a certain way. You wrote that book years

ago. So now that it's been several years, have you found that to still hold true? Absolutely. And I think it's almost to an uncanny degree that if you just change your outer actions, your inner landscape changes, and it can be almost weird. Like, I'm feeling like really grouchy or really blue about something. And I just forced myself to speak in like a cheerful, energetic way, I instantly feel better. It's almost weird. Or like if you're feeling really antagonistic towards somebody, if you just act really friendly or very considerate and thoughtful, your feelings will follow your actions. And sometimes people worry that that seems inauthentic, that you're not being true to yourself. And obviously, you don't want to like constantly be acting contrary

to your true feelings. And negative emotions are really important because they show us that something's not working. Like if I'm feeling angry at my coworker all the time, I, I, I, maybe I, maybe I, need to deal with the root cause of it instead of, but, you know, but a lot of times you're just like, oh, I feel low energy or I feel mildly annoyed or, oh, gosh, I don't want to hear about this again, but by, you know, sort of the fake it until you feel it because it's very, and also, like, sometimes you want to change your emotional state. It's very hard to directly change your emotional state. Like, it's hard to just sit there and think, like, I'm going to start feeling friendlier and cheerier and superior. You know, it's like, how do you do that? But you can change your

actions. They are within your conscious control. You can speak more with more energy. You can smile. You can stand closer to somebody. You can think like, how do I behave in this way in a way that feels more friendly? And then you start feeling more friendly. And also then people will respond to you in a certain way. There's a word for that, which is escaping me for the moment. But it's like you're, you're changing. Oh, mirroring. Is that? Well, mirroring, but, nah, I forget what it is. But yeah, mirroring is a good one. Good one. Yeah, but like people, like you're getting feedback all the time from other people. So if you put out a certain kind of vibe, that's going to affect the vibe you get back. So if you're walking around like in a really unfriendly, uninterested way,

it's not like people are going to be like greeting you with open arms because they're going to be picking up that energy from you and that emotional thing. Because there's emotional contagion, which is that we actually catch emotions from each other. And so people are very like, even subconsciously in a flash on a photograph on the phone, they're picking up emotional information from you. And so, but we can change our outward behavior, not 100%, but to a great degree. And it is, it's weird how much can, you don't feel like you could sort of trick yourself that way so much, but it really works. All of the projects that you undertook within the happiness project, how much time did that take? It sounded very time consuming.

That's what I kept thinking as I was reading it. Well, you know, it was my job. At the front of mine said, nice work if you can get it. I'm like, I know, right? Like, with happier at home, I went to this weird perfume store with a friend of mine. I was like, you realize this is a billable hour for me. You know what I mean? I'm like, this counts.

This is research, babe. You know, but it wasn't that owner's, I mean, a lot of the things didn't take that much time. And a lot of it was things that made me happier. And I think when you're feeling happier, you do, you feel more energy. You feel more capable of things. And something saved me time. Like a big thing was like having a real place for everything and getting rid of a lot of clutter. Like you just like if you really always know where your keys are.

Yeah. Like it ends up saving you quite a bit of time or like we were looking for something in our house and I was like I live like it's not in our apartment because there's no place that it would be. If it, I know where everything is and everything's in its place and this thing is just not there. So we simply don't have it because I just know. And so there were ways in which it saved time. But it was when I realized that I, that was one of the things where I realized that I was an upholder. So I was like, because people were like, how did you do all that stuff? Like, I don't know.

It's all fun. Like, it all made me happier. What's the big deal? And I'm like, hmm, actually, that's kind of an upholder thing, you know? Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Very upholed. All right.

And I'm like, it's very upholery of me. So final question. And this one is totally out of left field. and just for fun. You've written biographies about both Winston Churchill and JFK. Of the four tendencies, which one do you, would you speculate that they are? Well, you know, here's the thing that's really interesting, because I'm working on a book right now about the four tendencies and I'm having like things where I talk about famous real life or literary examples of the tendencies. And the problem is you cannot judge somebody from the outside. You cannot look at what they do and know what

their tendency is because you have to understand their reasons. Because I eat this incredibly low-carb diet. And it's satisfying to me as an upholder because it's like these are the rules, follow the rules. But I have a friend who's a like hardcore rubble. If you're a textbook oblizer, he's textbook rebel. And he also eats low carb, but he does it in a rubble way. Like, oh, I'm not buying in to the big food companies. I'm not being trapped by their advertising. I'm eating in this extreme, unique way. Like he does. So, so we're, from the outside, we look alike. But from the inside we're coming from very different places. And that Kennedy, we know, like, what was his, what was his inner process? We don't really know. I think he might have been an obliger.

That's what I would think. But I would have to go back and look a lot with that in mind, because when I was writing those biographies, it was well, you know, years and years and years. And Churchill was probably a question. But I would have to think, I would have to go back and, like, really look at things they wrote themselves. Were there any particular habits that they had that stood out? Oh, well, Churchill's hilarious because of his sleep. He, like, took up his clothes, put on pajamas and, like, went to sleep in the middle of the day. And then he stayed up really late at night. And he said, like, oh, you get two days out of one. But of course, his staff was, like, at their widths end because he was just, you know, he was just working late into the night. And then they couldn't. It's not like everybody and the, you know, and his staff could, like, get into bed at 3 p.m. Well, Gretchen, I don't want to take up any more of your time. I've really enjoyed this. Thank you so much for coming on to the show. show. Oh, thank you. What are you working on next? How can people find you? I have a podcast called Happier with Gretchen Rubin, where I talk about all these happiness, good habits, human nature, once a week with my sister, Elizabeth Kraft, who is a character in my books, if anybody has read those. So that's really fun. And I'm working on a book right now about the Four Tenancies. It's just going to be all, because so many people, and better than before,

you know, it was just part of kind of a larger discussion of habits. And then this book is going to go very, very deep into just like how do you grapple with your own tendency or sometimes even more fun. How do you grapple with someone else's tendency? And then I have my blog and I'm all over social media. So I love to connect with listeners and readers. So I encourage anybody to get in touch if they want. Excellent. Well, thank you, Gretchen.

Excellent. Thanks so much. So what are some of the key takeaways? Everything. Gretchen is so full of great ideas. I love talking to her. I highly, highly, highly recommend her book better than before. My copy of it is just Sticky Tab Central.

It's incredible. Okay, so a few key takeaways. Number one, be aware of how you respond to expectations, both external and internal expectations. So do you respond better when you're getting pressure from a boss or an accountability group or some kind of external, somebody in the outside world? or do you respond better to your own internal set of expectations for yourself? Having that level of self-knowledge as to whether you are an upholder, an obliger, a questioner, or a rebel will allow you to design your life in such a way that you can set up systems that will give you a greater probability of success. So, for example, if you know that you respond really well to external accountability, great. Now you can go create that. you can sign up for a yoga class that is very, very small where the instructor is going to notice if you don't show up.

And hopefully it's also an instructor whom you like and so you don't want to disappoint that person by not showing up. Or you could have a wall calendar where you put an X over every day that you perform a certain act, like an X over every day where you don't order take out. For example, if your goal is to save money, then maybe you put an X over every day when you don't spend money buying food at a coffee shop or at a restaurant. You put an X on the calendar every day that you're not ordering takeout or you're not going to a restaurant. And then you share that on social media. That provides some external accountability because now if there is a day that doesn't have an X on it, you know what? You've got to share that on social media with everybody who follows

you. And just knowing that that external accountability is there could be enough to help you reach that goal. On the other hand, you know, if you are a questioner, for example, if you are more likely to stick to a habit once you understand the validity of it, then maybe the thing that will help the most is reading the research, finding out the efficacy of a particular habit that you're trying to form. And that actually dovetails really nicely into something else that Gretchen said during our interview, which is be careful about what habits you form and what habits you don't. Before you put the effort into forming or breaking a habit, ask yourself, is this actually worth forming or breaking? You know, am I doing this because it aligns with the type of person that I want to be and the type of

life that I want to create? Or am I doing this because I quote unquote think I should? You know, we can put lots of time and energy into executing the formation or the breaking of habits. But before we dive into that, let's pause for just a second to ask ourselves whether or not the objective is the thing that we should be pursuing. Another great takeaway that I got from listening to Gretchen is to not give yourself rewards. The habit should be intrinsically rewarding, inherently rewarding in and of itself. So for example, exercising is a reward in and of itself. We shouldn't buy ourselves an iPad if we go to the gym for 30 days.

Writing for an hour every morning is rewarding in and of itself. We shouldn't have to reward ourselves with a weekend at the beach if we manage to do that. If you do choose to reward yourself, select a reward that ties into the activity. So if you exercise every day, then getting new exercise clothes or getting a new pair of running shoes is a reward that ties in with the activity. But make sure that any system of rewards that you set up for yourself is designed such that you aren't diminishing the intrinsic joy of the thing that you are doing, because what you're really hoping to create is a life in which you enjoy every habit that you act out. You enjoy that time at the gym. You enjoy the work that you do. You even enjoy making the bed and tidying up because it gives you

a sense of calm and peace of mind. You know, we want a life in which we take pleasure in the things that we're doing and setting up external rewards that are unrelated to that activity can actually diminish that joy rather than enhance it. So those are just a few of the many, many takeaways that I got from this conversation with Gretchen. I hope you enjoyed this interview with Gretchen Rubin, New York Times bestselling author and expert in habits and happiness. This interview was the final interview that we are going to air as part of our September sabbatical series. So during the month of September, we replay episodes from the archive, some of our favorite, most actionable, most impactful episodes. This is the end of September 2020, and so it is the final September sabbatical episode.

It's the final poll from our archives that we're doing for this year, which means, starting with the next episode that's going to air, we are going back to brand new, never before heard content. And we're kicking it off with an interview with Dr. Gleb Soperski. He talks through how to think through decisions, how to avoid disasters, how to make better decisions, how to check for cognitive biases, how to address unknown unknowns. We talk about thinking about how to think, how to become a better critical thinker so that you can apply this to every aspect of your life, whether it's making decisions about your money, your career,

your life. Cultivating the skill set of thinking is something that applies in any arena that you're in. And so on the next episode that's going to air, the first Friday, October 2020 episode with Dr. Gleb Soperski, we're going to discuss all of that. So make sure that you hit subscribe or follow in whatever app you're using to listen to this podcast so that you don't miss that episode or any of our other awesome upcoming episodes. If you enjoyed today's episode, chat about it with other members of the community. You can find like-minded people, make connections, have great conversations at affordanithing.com slash community, totally free and a great place to connect with other people who share your goals,

your struggles, who can connect with you, regardless of whether you are trying to pay off debt or go for an early retirement or buy your first rental property or buy your 12th rental property, regardless of what boat you're in, there's somebody else there who can connect, who can offer encouragement. All of that is at afford anything.com slash community. That's affordanything.com slash community. Thanks again for tuning in. My name is Paula Pant.

This is the Afford Anything podcast. And I will catch you. in the next episode.