Afford Anything - The Secret Lives of Introverts - with Jenn Granneman

Episode Date: September 4, 2017

#93: Do you enjoy spending time alone? Does your inner monologue chatter constantly? When you were a student, did you sometimes stay quiet even when you knew the correct answer? Do you avoid confrontation? Does small talk bore you? Have people told you that you're "too intense" or that you "get deep quickly?" Do you live inside your head? Do people see you as a good listener? Do you rarely interrupt others? Are you better at writing thoughts than speaking them? Are you good at focusing for long periods on tasks that you're really interested in, but totally checked out of tasks that bore you or that feel superficial? If so, you might be an introvert. And today's episode might be for you. If you'd like to learn how to thrive in any pursuit -- like starting a business, traveling the world or becoming an investor -- tune in to learn how to use your natural tendencies to your advantage. For more information, including links to resources mentioned in this episode, go to http://affordanything.com/episode93 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Does the following sound like you? You enjoy spending time alone. You do your best thinking when you're alone. And your inner monologue never really stops. Sometimes when you're in a crowd, you feel lonelier than you do when you're with just one other person. When you're networking, you kind of feel like you're faking it. And when you were a student, you weren't necessarily the student whose hand shot up every time, even when you knew the answer. Sometimes you're better at writing your thoughts.

than you aren't speaking them. And you're not really a big fan of engaging with people who are angry. You shut down after too much socializing, and in particular, you avoid small talk whenever possible. You find it draining. Sometimes you're told that you're too intense, largely because of your dislike of small talk. You tend to notice details that other people miss,

whether visual or details about a social interaction. You live inside of your head. you like to people watch, you've been told you're a good listener. You have a small circle of friends, and you can concentrate for long periods of time on things that you're really interested in. You've been told you're an old soul. If this resonates with you, you might be an introvert. My name is Paula Pant. This is the Afford Anything Podcast. This is the podcast that believes that you can afford anything but not everything. And that's true, not just of your money, but also your time, energy, focus, attention, anything in your life that's a scarce or limited resource. And today,

we are focusing this episode on the secret lives of introverts. Why? What does this have to do with the topic of the podcast? Well, a couple of things. Number one, your energy, your mental bandwidth, is a scarce, limited resource. I would argue it is your most valuable scarce and limited resource. And all people, introverts in particular, are highly attuned to how energy gets straight. and how energy needs to be managed, budgeted, how decisions need to be made around it so that you can thrive both at life and at your job and at any entrepreneurial activity that you might be pursuing.

So today, I have invited onto the show, Jen Granaman, she is the author of a book called The Secret Lives of Introverts. In the upcoming interview, Jen and I will discuss, number one, what is an introvert? And number two, how can you, how can you? introverts thrive at starting side hustles, at entrepreneurship, and at the day-to-day workplace. So without further delay, Jen Granaman on The Secret Lives of Introverts.

Hey, Jen. Hey, Paula. Thank you so much for coming on to the show. I love your book. I read it in two days. Oh, thank you. That's so great to hear. I'm really excited to be on your podcast.

Thank you. Thank you. So this is probably very introverted of me, but I brought your book with me to a birthday party at a bar. Oh my gosh. That's great. How did people react to that? Well, I was, I was reading your book, and I had already committed to going to this party, and I didn't want to put the book down. And so I threw it in my purse, figuring that if things got boring, I could, like, sort of sneak away and maybe get a few pages in. And so we were sitting, there was maybe 10 of us, and we were all sitting around, and everybody was having a big group conversation about nothing in particular. Of course. And I

turn to the guy who's sitting next to me, a guy named Ben, he's a good friend of mine. And I know that he is, he's very quiet and he's also very much an introvert. I knew that he would be interested in it. So I turn to him and I start having a one-on-one conversation with him. I pull the book out of my purse and I show it to him and we start talking about it. And then, of course, my loudest friend looks over and she's like, did you bring a book to a bar? in downtown Las Vegas? That's perfect.

I love it. I was like, yes, I did. And she was like, what's the book about? And I'm like, uh, introversion. That's, I love that so much. That might be my new tactic. I will admit that I will kind of sneakily read articles on my phone if I'm out at some social event, you know, because then people don't really quite know what you're

doing, but I love it. I don't ever get enough time to read. So that might be my next go-to tactic. I find that it's a great way to move conversations from the superficial to the more meaningful also, you know, because then you can talk about the topic of the book, whatever it is, rather than like, so what do you do for a living? Did you have some more in-depth conversations because of that? Well, so that the loud friend was like, when I told her that the book was about introversion, her response was, I don't think there's any such thing. What did you say to that? I was like, I think I just proved that there is.

Yes. That's awesome. So on that topic, for the people who are listening who might either not think there is a such thing or who might be wondering if they are introverts or extroverts or what the delineation is, let's start with a basic question. what is an introvert? Sure. So one of the simplest definitions is that an introvert is someone who gets recharged by spending time alone. But that's a pretty simple definitions. Interverts are simply people who like quiet, low-key environments, more than loud, noisy, busy ones. When I was reading through this book, there were so many characteristics that I thought were part of my

personality that I didn't realize were associated with introversion until I read your book. So being conflict diverse, for example. Right. Yeah, this isn't true for every introvert. I certainly know some that will meet conflict head on, but it tends to be an introverted thing to not want to get involved in conflict. And simply because it's over-stimulating. There's actually, there was a study done that showed that introverts will look away from a face that looks angry.

And we don't know for sure exactly why that happens, but it's probably because conflict is overstimulating for us. One thing that I found fascinating was that in your book you describe a hypothesis around four different types of introverts called known by the acronym Star. Can you talk about that a little? Yeah, absolutely. So this is a model put together by psychologist Jonathan Cheek, along with some graduate students, and they hypothesize that there are actually four different types of introverts, or in other words, four different ways in which a person's introversion can be expressed. And this is just a work in progress, so I wouldn't take this as a hard and fast rule. But I certainly think it's interesting because it helps expand the definition of introversion a little more. And it helps to, account for some of the differences between introverts. So the first type of introvert, the S in Star, is a social introvert. This isn't quite exactly what it sounds like. A social introvert isn't someone who's so outgoing that they can pass for an extrovert. This is actually someone who's introverted in a social way. So it means you have a preference for hanging out

with just a few people at a time. That's definitely true for me. I definitely identify as a social introvert. The next type is the thinking introvert. This is someone who is introspective and thoughtful and self-effective. They might daydream or have a strong imagination. The A is an anxious introvert and this is an introvert who seeks solitude because they are avoiding socializing because they feel awkward and almost painfully self-conscious around other people. And then the last type is the restrained introvert, and I definitely identify as this one too. This is the person who likes to take things at a slow, steady pace. They're not the kind of person that jumps out of bed, ready to seize the day. Their motto is definitely not. I'll try anything once.

If you're a restrained introvert, you really prefer to think before you act or speak, and to relax. You really just like to slow down and take things easy. So in my book, there's actually a quiz. to help you determine which type of introvert you are, and you can be more than one, or you could be a combination of all of them. At what point did you realize that you are an introvert, and how did that play a role in your work and career decisions from that point forward? I realized I was an introvert in my late 20s, which is far too late. In my opinion, I wish this was something that was taught in schools to children when they're young.

So I grew up feeling out of place and strange and just different for my introversion, although I didn't have a word for it at the time. People told me, why are you so quiet? Why don't you speak more? I would feel guilty for wanting to spend time alone. And I just thought it was weird. Later, I came to realize that it wasn't just a weird thing that I was doing. I wasn't broken in some way. I'm actually an introvert.

So as the story goes, I happened to just be in a used bookstore one day, browsing the psychology section because that's something I like to do. And I came across a book called The Introvert Advantage. I bought it. I read it cover to cover. And at the end, I actually cried. And I'm honestly not that much of a crier. I cried because I really identified with what the author was saying. And I felt really understood for the first time in my life. that kicked off this whole journey about learning about my introversion.

I went on to read everything I could get my hands on about introversion. And eventually that led to my website, introvert dear, and then eventually my book. What you do now, I mean, running a website, writing a book, those are work activities that require being alone for long periods of time, alone with your computer. Yeah. Do you find that energizing? or does do you end up having too much alone time? I do find it energizing for the most part. I get to work from home.

I get to basically be alone for most of the day. And yeah, I have more energy left over at the end of the day. When I was a teacher, which is a very extroverted job, I found myself feeling really exhausted at the end of the day, partially because teaching is just a tiring job for introverts and extroverts, but also because I was surrounded by so many people without much of a chance to recharge. And I noticed that when I came home, I just didn't have the energy to do many things. I didn't want to go out.

I didn't want to see friends because I was drained. But now that I'm home and working by myself day in and day out, I find that I have energy left over at the end of the day. I want to go out to a restaurant. I want to go meet friends. and I often find myself welcoming some sort of opportunity to go socialize simply because I've sort of been in my like introvert cave all day long. Yeah, I feel the same way. Tell me about some of the strengths that introverts bring to the workplace generally.

I think introverts bring a lot of strengths to the workplace. For one, we can concentrate deeply for long periods of time as employees. we don't need a lot of management. We tend to be the types of employees who just come to work well to work. We walk in the door. We head straight for our desks. We put our heads down and we start working. So we tend to not need a lot of management and we're usually self-starters too. We don't need someone to come light a fire under us. We're ready to just get started on the project. What do introverts look for in terms of choosing careers or finding fulfilling work? I interviewed several introverts for my book and it was all over the board.

For some people, they chose careers that are typical introverted careers. So like a truck driver where they spend long periods of time alone or a librarian where they're surrounded by books. But surprisingly, a lot of introverts chose jobs that were very people-centric, like a teacher or a therapist or psychologist or social. worker. And what they told me was they chose these jobs because although they're introverted and socializing can be draining, they want to interact with people in a meaningful way. And for the most part, these jobs allow them to do that. So I think introverts are looking for jobs that give them a mix of solitude, right? They need some downtime in their day to be able to close the door and recharge. But also they're looking for ways to interact with people,

meaningfully. I conducted a survey over social media and asked introverts about how happy they were with their jobs. And a thing that came up over and over again was if they had to interact with people in a not so meaningful way, like if they worked in a call center or they were a customer service rep in a store, that was really exhausting for them. But if they got to hear other people's stories, help them, interact with them in a way that felt authentic. That actually gave them energy and gave them the push to keep going in their jobs and to ultimately enjoy their jobs. I thought that was fascinating when I read that, that it isn't necessarily about isolation.

It's about getting rid of inauthenticity and superficiality. Yeah, definitely. So for the people who are listening to this podcast, who are introverts and are interested in either switching to a different career or starting a business, starting a side project, starting a side hustle. What, well, let's just start with what would some good side hustles be for that personality type? I think it could be all over the board.

I know introverts who are graphic designers and computer consultants and freelancers and fitness coaches. So I would say anything that allows you to have some control over your schedule and allows you to create some downtime, but also intersects with your interests, whether it's fitness or entrepreneurship or graphic design or whatever it might be, that would be the ideal intersection for introverts who want to find a side hustle. The comment that you just made about making sure that it aligns with your interests. I thought that that was quite fascinating. You made this comment in the book about how introverts in particular want their outer world to reflect their deep and very rich inner world.

And extroverts might often kind of look to the outside world and say, all right, what's going to pay the best? Or, you know, what's going to give me the most status? What, you know, what rewards will I have? While introverts, generally speaking, and of course, are speaking in broad generalities, are more likely to ask, how can I drive meaning? How can I be creative? How can I be autonomous? Yeah, absolutely. And of course, those are just general terms. I know extroverts who would say that they're working at their calling and that their job is really meaningful to them and certainly introverts who are just looking for a job that will pay the bills. But yeah, in general terms, introverts are looking for something that feels like a calling. They want more than just a paycheck.

They want to know that they're making a difference in the world and in people's lives. And they want the stuff that's on the inside of them, that private inner introvert world that the rest of the world often doesn't see. They want that to come out and be reflected in their job. And often if it's not reflected, they don't feel happy or satisfied with life. It isn't until they can sort of take the introverted part and extrovert it in a way that's meaningful, they don't feel happy. You did some research on introverts and creativity. Can you tell me about that? Yeah, absolutely. I asked introverts to tell me if they thought that they considered

themselves to be a creative person. And I did this survey with people who self-identify as introverts, and I put it out on social media for my followers to respond to. And the results were pretty impressive. 81% of introverts said that yes, they do consider themselves to be creative people. So that's four out of five introverts, which is pretty cool, I think. And then I asked them to tell me about some of the things they do as creative activities. And they could name more than one thing. So 61% of those people told me they write or journal. 42% like to paint, draw or do some other type of visual artwork. 16% create music. And then the list goes on, thinking of new ideas, photography, filmmaking, woodworking. Basically, if you can name it as

a creative activity, introverts are doing it. And even writing software, which is something that isn't stereotypically lumped into the arts, it is a creative activity. And I thought that that was really interesting that that's on the list. Yeah, absolutely. It's not something I know. how to do, but you do need a creative backbone, I think, to be doing that. Exactly. Exactly. It's not wrote. Right. And you also found in that same survey that the majority of them felt that their introversion helped make them more creative. Yeah, that's right. So I asked introverts, do you think your introversion helps make you a more creative person? And 74% said, yes, I think so. And only 4% said no. And of course, some said, well, I don't know if it does, which is a fair answer.

I think that's really fascinating. Introverts agree that their quiet, reflective nature gives them a boost to creativity. Are you familiar? I'm throwing this question out of kind of thin air. Are you familiar with Cal Newport and his writing about deep work? Yeah, I am. I love Cal Newport. I do too.

He was a guest on an earlier episode of this podcast and just personally, he's one of my favorite writers and thinkers. There were a lot of points throughout your book, particularly when you were talking about the work process of an introvert, it reminded me so much of Cal Newport. And for the people who are listening who aren't familiar with him, in a nutshell, in his book Deep Work, he advocates setting aside time to go into deep work mode

where you cut off all distractions and go into a period of deep reflection. And he cites Bill Gates, Microsoft's Bill Gates, as an example of somebody who does this successfully. And Jen, in your book, I think you mentioned Bill Gates a couple of times as well as the classic introvert. So I saw a lot of similarities there in terms of successful work habits and the temperament of introverts. Yeah, absolutely. I think to do any creative work while you need to have the inclination to withdraw and concentrate on that, for a long period of time or at least to concentrate deeply on it.

I don't think that any real creative work can be done if you can't turn inward and take some time to think and reflect about what you've experienced. And yeah, that ties into what Cal Newport's saying. Starting a business is, regardless of what that business does, is inherently a creative task, a business or a side hustle. Essentially, we know that reflection is important to the creative purpose. process. How do we get more of that? I guess we know what's important. How can we bring that into having more success at business and entrepreneurship? I think one thing that interverts can do

or really anyone who wants to find more time to do deep work is actually schedule some solitude or you could call it deep work on your calendar. I interviewed a musician named Jeremy Master Smith and he's an introvert, but he told me he needs a lot of time to just sit at the computer by himself and think so that he can come up with songs. And what he does is actually schedule his solitude on his family calendar. He has a wife who's very extroverted and he noticed that if he just disappeared on his own for a while, she would feel hurt, which is, I think, kind of a common introvert affliction when we disappear and go into our time. The people in our lives start to worry that we've upset them or we don't want to be with them or something like that.

So what he took to doing was actually scheduling on his family calendar when he would go do that introvert time. And that way his wife knew and she would also help protect his solitude by not scheduling other obligations at that time. So he tries to do it about once a week. If something comes up, it comes up, and he'll bump that time. But then the kind of the deal is that he gets to reschedule that solitude for another point that week. And he found that that worked really well to help him not only just relax and have some introvert downtime, but also to focus his energy into some of those creative tasks. We'll come back to this episode in just a moment, but first, a question for those of you who run your own businesses. Are you hiring? No, I'm not asking for me. I want to know if you know where to post your job in order to find the best candidates. See, a company is only as strong as the people who work for it. Frankly, the people who are on my team, Steve and Aaron, are way smarter and more talented than me. They are really the ones who run this show and hold everything together. And I absolutely would not be where I am without them. So I understand the importance of hiring good people.

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requirements of starting a business may need to buckle down and be alone in front of a laptop for long periods of time? I would say that it's okay if you're an extrovert to want to be out and be among people. That's how you thrive and that's where you'll get your energy. But yeah, you're right. Sometimes everybody needs to just buckle down and get something done. So my advice would be to just do it in small chunks of time. If you can grab 30 minutes after work or or an hour on the weekend, just grab the time that you can and work for as long as you can. And kind of going back to Cal Newport, it's important not to have interruptions during that time so that you can focus in. So avoid the temptation to check Facebook or check your email or check

text messages. You could set a time limit for yourself and say, okay, for this hour, I'm going to not check anything. I'm going to tell the people in my life, this is what I'm doing. Give me some uninterrupted time. I think when the people in your life know what you're doing, it helps out because often they want to come in and support your goal. Do you think, and I don't know if this would even be an applicable question or a fair question, but do you think that introverts and or extroverts that one temperament or the other is more likely to be successful at starting a business, starting a side hustle, starting some type of creative endeavor?

I don't know if either introverts or extroverts are more successful in business, although there was a study that said 40% of CEOs identify as introverts and actually the CEO that we typically think of as being successful, the quick thinking, outgoing, smooth-talking CEO, basically the extroverted CEO, that person isn't necessarily the person who's going to outperform our expectations. In fact, the CEOs who are outperformed investors and directors' expectations were actually the ones who identified as introverted. And as far as creativity goes, you know, it's hard to say. In my book, I talk about how I know both introverts and extroverts who are really creative people. But, you know, I kind of like to think that introverts have an edge when it comes to creativity, just because we do have that ability to zero in and focus. and also a lot of introverts told me that their art and creativity and writing stems from the fact that they have all this stuff inside them in their inner world that they don't necessarily know how to express

using words or talking to people and doing something creative allows them to express what's built up inside them. How do you talk to on the subject of people? people who are not good at expressing themselves through words necessarily. Oh, words are hard. Words are very hard. This is why I write, personally. Words are difficult. I love the phrase word retrieval.

I learned that in your book for the first time. And that resonated because sometimes retrieving the right word out of your memory bank is difficult. Right. So how do you, because I've thought about this a lot. I have a friend who, number one, is generally unaware of his feelings. And number two, even when he is aware of it, is unlikely to want to express those feelings. And number three, even when he does want to express them, often lacks the capability or the capacity to do so. So there's kind of three different issues.

There's the issue of awareness, the issue of willingness of expression. and then there's capability of expression. How do you, especially in the workplace, how do you facilitate somebody like that? Well, yeah, let me just go back and say word retrieval is definitely hard, and it's an introvert thing to sometimes struggle to find the right words to speak. And the idea is, according to Marty Olson-Laney, that introverts use their long-term memories, more than their short-term memories, right? extroverts tend to have quicker access to their short-term memory.

And so the words are right on the tip of their tongue, whereas introverts have to reach back and retrieve words from their long-term memory, which slows us down, frankly. So, I mean, I struggle with this all the time. I have an idea of what I want to say or a feeling inside me that I want to express. I just can't get it out there, which, again, is why I write. That really helps get those things out there. But, yeah, in the workplace, this can be a problem. because introverts may be seen as not as intelligent or not as capable as extroverts

because they may hesitate before they speak or when they do speak, they may not express everything eloquently and succinctly they may be searching for words or say not quite the right word that they want. So I advise introverts to basically own up to the fact that they need some more time to process and think that extroverts do. So, for example, if someone asks you a question and you don't have the answer to it right away, it's okay to just say, I need to think about that some more, or I'm not sure right now, give me a moment, or even I'll send you an email when I have the answer.

Typically, writing is easier for introverts because it uses different pathways in the brain and those pathways seem to flow more fluently for us. And that was one thing, you mentioned brain pathways. that was another thing that I thought was fascinating. In your book, you describe brain scans of introverts and extroverts and how at a physical level our brains work differently, which I guess also kind of proves that this delineation does exist. Yeah, absolutely.

Introverts and extroverts are actually wired differently. So introverts have less active dopamine reward systems than extroverts, which sounds like a bad thing, but I argue that it's not. it just makes us geared toward different activities. That means we just don't get as excited by or motivated by the certain kinds of things that extramers do. I don't know if you want me to get more into that. Sure, yeah. You wanted to go.

Okay. Yeah, absolutely. Okay. So dopamine is a neurotransmitter that's found in our brains and it's responsible for the pleasure and reward centers. And introverts just simply put, aren't as motivated by or not. energized by the same kinds of rewards that experts are. So a reward is something like getting promoted at work, getting the phone number of an attractive stranger, or even eating a really good meal, right?

There's all things that reward us. So introverts care about rewards too. Obviously, they like to eat food and get ahead at work and have relationships. But what researchers have found is that they just don't get as motivated by those things as extroverts do. In fact, they can, because of their less active dopamine reward system, they find the same environments that experts are in to be punishing or draining or even exhausting, just because they're not getting the same dopamine reward than extroverts are for being at the party or at the bar

or wherever else. So this really accounts for a lot of the differences between introverts and extroverts. It's not that introverts. people or just are misanthropic, it's that their system is just less geared toward getting energized by seeking out those rewards. And that means that it's more likely that the cost exceeds the benefit of being at a nightclub. Yeah, absolutely. So introverts can be in a nightclub or be at a party, but eventually they'll get drained. And a study found that experts get drained by socializing too. everyone gets drained by socializing, probably because it's work. You have to talk and listen

and do other cognitive processes while you're socializing. So it's tiring for everybody, but it's especially tiring for introverts because they're not getting that same reward that extroverts are. Now, right before we close out, I'm going to change topics. The last thing that I want to ask you about is traveling. A lot of people who are listening to this podcast are either frequent travelers or they want to travel. There are a lot of people who want to retire early so that they can travel more, for example, or who want to just improve their finances and improve their lives and restructure their work life so that they can travel more. One thing that is sort of an inherent contradiction about introverts is that, as you mentioned in your book,

many introverts like structure and routine and really kind of thrive on that. But at the same time, we're also intellectually curious, and that intellectual curiosity often expresses itself as a desire to go see the world, go backpack through South America or spend a month in Africa. How do you balance the two? How do you, how does an introvert balance that need for structure and routine with that insatiable curiosity about the world? That's a great question, and that's something I deal with all the time. I'm also a highly sensitive person, and that means, that environmental stimuli can overwhelm me and stress me out more than it can someone who's not a highly sensitive person. And I find that when I go traveling, I love it, but it's also a little

overwhelming to me. It's overwhelming to be in a new place and be out of my routine and be sleeping in a new bed, having new foods, and just experiencing all kinds of new things. So I often find, as an injured and a highly sensitive person, that I get worn out going on my trip, which I think is a pretty common problem that people have. So I think it's important just to do things in a way that's going to work with your introverted system. If you can go for just a few days, go for just a few days. Or if you're planning an overnight flight, make sure you're allowing yourself plenty of time the next day to recover and rest up. So I think you can still travel and do those kind of exciting, extradited things, you may just have to take it at a little slower pace than

someone else. And you said you recently spent three months in Mexico, yes? Yeah, that's right, last summer. Tell me about that. How did you manage that? How did you maintain your sanity? Well, it was a lot of just pacing myself. For me, it helps to know things ahead of time. If I know, if I have a plan for where I'm going to be, that sort of helps manage my energy because I can just be prepared for what's coming up. I think introverts really feel a certain level of comfort when they are prepared. So just having the knowledge of where they're going to be, what's going to happen, that can really go a long way towards managing your energy. The fact that you were there for three months, I mean, that's a long period of time. Did that help insofar as you were able to

settle in and develop a routine in that new environment? Yeah, absolutely. In fact, after two months, We could have moved on to another city, but I said, no, let's just stay here. I like the routine that we have here. Excellent. Well, thank you so much, Jen. Is there anything that I haven't asked or any kind of parting message that you want to convey? No, I don't think so. Then you can find my book on Amazon or Barnes & Noble or wherever books are sold. Awesome. And we will link to that in the show notes. Awesome. Thank you so much for having me on your podcast. So what are some of the key takeaways that we got from this interview for both introverts and extroverts? Number one, do what you're good at, work with your nature rather than fight against it. That seems to be the underlying theme behind this whole conversation.

If you rejuvenate and recharge and get energy by socializing and being around other people, then go for it. But if you rejuvenate by kind of holling up and being by yourself, don't be afraid to do that, even if you are in a setting that doesn't encourage it. So, for example, if you're at work or if you're at a conference and you're just tired, your inner batteries are running down and you need to just go be alone for a moment, but you've got back-to-back meetings or you're at a conference with back-to-back sessions and there's just no time to recharge. Don't fight against your nature.

Find some way to give yourself what you need. For me, for example, if I'm at a conference, I will, sometimes just go to the bathroom and, okay, this is embarrassing, so I've never actually admitted this before, I'll go to the bathroom and I'll just sit in a bathroom stall and just if I have no other private place to go to be alone, I'll just spend like 10 minutes in there. I mean, you know, not, of course, if there's a line or anything like that. I'm conscientious of that. But if there's no line, if there's plenty of space, I'll just spend, I'll just hide out there for a while because I just need that 10 minutes to be alone and compose my thoughts and take a few deep breaths and recharge

so that I can then go back out into the world with full energy. Anyway, wow, okay, my bathroom habits aside, the broader point is to give yourself what you need, even if it's not a quote unquote normal solution. Key takeaway number two, and this is sort of a more meta lesson, be aware of who. you're talking to and what that person might need. And this is true regardless of whether you're a traditional nine to five employee or you run your own business. Anytime that you're interacting with somebody, think about whether that person is an introvert or an extrovert and therefore what that person might need in order to facilitate a better conversation.

And here's what I mean by that. When I went into this interview, I knew that the author, Jen, I knew that she's an introvert. I mean, you know, she did just write a book about it. it, it's fairly obvious. In her book, there's actually a section in there that gives advice on how to interview introverts. So right before we went into the interview, I reviewed that section. And as a result, when she and I started talking, one of the first things that I said to her, I was like, you know what? If I ask you a question, don't feel as though you need to have the answer right away. If you need to pause and take some time and compose your thoughts and think about what you want to say.

That's totally cool. We're going to edit this later. So feel free to just be silent for a while. If that's what you need, feel free to say, hey, hold on, I need to process this. I need to think about it. Don't feel like you have to be like snap, snap, snap, snap, fast talking. This is not an improv comedy show. You don't have to be performing live on stage.

And I think that she really appreciated that. And I, frankly, also really appreciated being able to vocalize that because there were certain times during the interview where I paused and said, hold on a minute, let me figure out how to phrase my next question. And then I would pause and think about it. And then I'd pose that question to her. And then we edit out the long pauses. Well, Steve edits out the long pauses. Thanks, Steve. I'm always here for you, Paula. Okay, takeaway number three. I know that a lot of those of you who are listening to this are either entrepreneurs or want to be entrepreneurs to some degree, even if it's as a side hustle or as as a side hustle or as. a part-time thing that you do after an early retirement. A lot of those of you who are listening to this have some type of small business slash side hustle interest. And part of the reason why I invited Jen on to the show and part of the reason why I wanted to cover this is because so much of the advice that is given to people who start businesses is based around heavy socializing.

You know, so much of the advice is network. You've got it. network. You've got to go out there. You've got to meet customers. You've got to meet your clients. You've got to meet other people in the industry. You've got to go to conferences. And it's very built around the idea of constantly being around people a lot. And yet that's not, I mean, it is necessary to an extent. But I wanted to invite her on to the show to highlight the fact that there are many advantages that introverts have that can lead to them being excellent business leaders. For example, introverts tend to be more autonomous, self-starters. They're calm and non-reactive. They're typically kind of conflict-averse. They listen to a lot of ideas and

absorb what other people say, which means that they can be more creative or more open-minded to new ideas. They can take in a lot of perspectives. And a lot of location-independent jobs or location-independent opportunities such as graphic design, freelance writing, coding. Many of those involve being in front of a laptop for long periods of time. So there are a lot of advantages that the introverts within this audience have.

And that's not to say that those of you who are listening who are more extroverted, you have a lot of other advantages as well. I guess this goes back to play to your strengths. And while that tidbit of advice may sound obvious, Like, well, duh, Paula, of course I should play to my strengths. It isn't necessarily obvious in a day-to-day context. Unfortunately, I think we live in a society where we are often taught that we should work on improving our weaknesses rather than focus on our strengths.

Think about, for example, the mainstream educational system. You know, like if you are a student, an elementary school or middle school or high school student who is strong in certain subjects and weaker. in other subjects. Normally, what do teachers and parents do? They encourage you to spend all of your time focusing on the subjects in which you are weaker because you're already strong at reading and writing. So clearly you should spend all of your time focusing on math, which is where you're a little bit weaker. That's not necessarily a great lesson. You know, the implicit advice being don't focus on your strengths, focus on your weaknesses and improve that. I don't know. I don't know if that's really the way to go. Because if you are strong in certain areas, won't you have

the highest likelihood of success by focusing on those areas of strength and really improving those so that you can become world class? I have no idea if Ernest Hemingway was good at calculus, and I have no idea if Albert Einstein got good grades in Homek or shop class. It's totally possible that he was a terrible cook. But you know what? That's fine. You can only be world class. You can only be excellent at a very narrow band of things. So focus on whatever it is that you're strong in. And that's true, not just when it comes to industries, but also when it comes to personal attributes. If you're a strong networker, network. If you're a strong listener, listen. Go deep instead of wide. So those are some of the takeaways that I got from both reading the book and from this

interview. By the way, if you want a free copy of the book, this is cool, the publisher has agreed to give out 10 free copies of this book, 10 free copies. So if you're interested in being one of the 10 10 people who gets a free copy, here's what you do. Head to Instagram. To my account, I'm at Paula P-A-P-A-N-T on Instagram. In one of my postings, you'll see a picture of this book. Leave a comment saying whatever. Doesn't matter. You could say hi. You can say hi. You. You could leave a comment about the episode. You could tell me about your bathroom habits. Actually, that would be hilarious.

Do that. I will pick 10 respondents and message you on Instagram if you're the winner and you will get a copy of this book. By the way, congratulations. We did this once previously with Jen Cicero's book. You are a badass at making money. And congratulations to the winners there. So, again, Instagram at Paula Pant. That's Instagram.com slash Paula Pant.

if you're on a desktop or Instagram at Paula Pant on a phone. In order to win, you must live inside of the United States, or at least you must get the book mailed somewhere inside of the U.S. And you must leave your comment by Friday, September 8th at 5 p.m. Pacific. Again, deadline is Friday, September 8th at 5 p.m. Pacific. Thank you so much for tuning into the show. If you enjoy today's episode, please tell a friend about it. My name is Paula Pant, host of the Afford Anything podcast.

I'll catch you next week. Oh, shoot, and I've lost my train of thought. I'm being an introvert. This is great. By the way, I'm loving this. This is like one of my favorite interviews. That's great. Because I can just be real and be like, hey, I need a minute to think about how to word this.

Yeah. I've done live radio before. And it's just like, oh, my gosh. It's not really my thing, you know, but I try. And yeah, it's introverted me. It's not easy. Yeah, exactly. And then four days later, you're like, oh, that's how I should have answered that.

Exactly.