Afford Anything - You are a Badass at Making Money, with Jen Sincero

Episode Date: September 7, 2022

#401: It’s September! If you’ve been listening to the show for the past few years, then you know that I’m on what I’ve dubbed my September Sabbatical, in which I’m taking a break from podcast production. F.I.R.E. holds four pillars: Financial psychology, Investing, Real estate, and Entrepreneurship. This September, we’re running four weeks of episodes focusing on each of these four pillars. Today, we kick off with an episode focused on financial psychology. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You can afford anything but not everything. Every choice that you make is a trade-off against something else, and that doesn't just apply to your money. That applies to any limited resource you need to manage, like your time, your focus, your energy, your attention. And that opens up two questions. First, what matters most? Second, how do you align your decision-making around your values, your priorities? Answering those two questions is a lifetime practice. Sometimes we're better at it, sometimes not so much.

But this podcast is here to help you explore it, figure it out, get through it. My name's Paula Pant. I'm the host of the Afford Anything podcast. Before we get started, I want to make a very exciting announcement. Myself, Mr. Money Mustache, Tiffany Aliche, the Budget Nista, and Ross Mac from YouTube, we are all in a Netflix documentary, which was released this week. released Tuesday, September 6th. So the documentary is called Get Smart with Money. And if you're looking for a fun, educational, really beautiful, super well-told story to watch on Netflix, if you're

looking for a movie to watch on Netflix, this one is amazing. The storyline is that there are four financial coaches, myself, Mr. Money Mustache, Tiffany Aliche, the Budget Nista, and Ross Mac, we are the four financial coaches. Each of us spend a year, mentor. touring a protege, and each protege has a different type of financial struggle. So I work with a woman who doesn't make enough. She needs to focus on the income side of the equation. Mr. Money Mustache, by contrast, works with a couple who is high income. They make $300,000 a year, but they spend a ton. And they want to reach early retirement, but their spending is out of hand. He deals with that issue. Tiffany Aliche, the budget nista, she worked.

works with a woman who has more than $100,000 in student loan debt plus a bunch of credit card debt. And she has two young children. Her car breaks down during the year that they work together. So she's dealing with all of these big bills and big debts and doesn't quite know how to dig herself out of it. And then Ross Mack is working with an athlete who gets injured and goes from having this huge windfall to not having any income. And so each of us, all four financial coaches, we all work with these people who have some type of financial struggle, but it's a very different flavor of struggle, a different style of struggle. And the movie on Netflix highlights all four

of these storylines. So if you are interested in money management, which of course you are, because you're listening to this show, I think you're going to love this movie. It's called get smart with money. It is on Netflix right now. So I hope you enjoy it. Okay, with that said, on to today's episode. It is September 2022. Every year during the month of September, we take what we call the September sabbatical, where we bring you four of our favorite shows from our archives and we theme these shows around F-I-R-E, which we have redefined as financial psychology, investing, real estate, and entrepreneurship, F-I-R-E. Today, we are kicking off with the letter F, financial psychology.

What's more important than that? Now, we've created 400 episodes from all of these amazing episodes, which was the one that we chose this year to highlight the topic of financial psychology? Ooh, drum roll, please. Steve, can we get a drum roll? We decided to highlight an interview that we did with New York Times best-selling author, Jen Cincereo, who talks about how you are a bad at making money. Jen says she used to be, quote, a grouchy broke person.

When she was in her early 40s, she lived in a converted garage. She was buried in credit card debt, literally scrounging for spare chain. She was the type of person who would join her friends at a restaurant for dinner, ordered nothing except for tap water, and fill up on the complementary bread basket. She used duct tape to repair her shoes. She considered getting new windshield wipers a splurge. And despite all of those struggles, she believed that pursuing wealth was icky because she had internalized these negative social attitudes towards money.

Social attitudes like, oh, money isn't important. people are, or you can't make money doing your dream, or it's lonely at the top, or he or she is only about the money, or rich people are gross. These were the negative attitudes that Jen Cicero had internalized, and they were holding her back. So she flipped the script, she created a more positive script, such as I'm good at making money, and money is a tool that helps me live my best life, and that attitude shift made all the difference. In this interview, she talks about how she became more of a maverick at making money, and how that started by taking a deep, hard look at her inner financial psychology.

We originally aired this interview on May 1st, 2017, and five years later, it is so important, so relevant that we chose this from our 400 episodes, we chose this to be the one that we want to highlight the letter F, financial psychology, in our September sabbatical. What you are about to hear is the episode that we originally aired on May 1st, 2017. It originally aired as episode 75. You're about to hear it right now. And this is our interview with Jen Sincereo about the mental scripts that were keeping her broke and how flipping that script turned her into a person living in total abundance. Enjoy. Hey, Jen. Hey, how's it going? Excellent. How are you doing? I'm good. Awesome. Before we get into your philosophy about money, which I think is rock star,

I'd like to hear about your story. I'd love for you to share that with the audience because you went from living in a garage. to becoming a baller. So walk us through that. Well, I basically, my whole life found that money was a real stumbling block for me. I was, I was a writer, and I was in a bunch of bands, and I was, had a lot of good friends, and I did mostly what I wanted to do, but I was always so broke and scraping by into my 40s and was living in a converted garage at the age of 40. And one day was just like, I am going to die in this damn garage if I don't get my act together. So, I basically made the decision to focus on making money, which is an extremely controversial decision to make in our culture.

You know, when you can focus on going on a diet or you can focus on getting in shape. But focusing on making money is a very, very loaded topic. It was probably why I didn't let myself do it for selling. But that was really the big turning point was when I decided to focus on it and started taking steps in that direction that, you know, scared the hell out of me that I had never taken before. But that's it in a very small nutshell. I'd like to dig into the specifics of those steps, but before I do, tell me a little bit about, like, during the decades of your 20s and 30s, did you have certain scripts like, oh, I'm a writer, therefore I'll never make any money? Or, oh, I'm an artist, therefore I'll never make any money.

Mine was more about I didn't think I could. I really think I had a very deep-seated belief that I was just unable to. I also believed that for some reason it was available to other people, but not to me. Somehow I would see somebody really, really rich, you know, with a mansion and a yacht. And not that I wanted those things necessarily, but it seemed like they were almost a different species than I was. I was also very caught up in the belief that I didn't know what I wanted to do with my life. So I would just constantly spin out in indecision and never really, never really grab hold of something and try and make it. it work because I was constantly doubting it. What other scripts or what other self-talk did you have at that time? Like, did you think that rich people were evil or that money or that money itself was evil? Or did you just not think about it that much or all of the above? I thought about it all the time because I was so broke and never had any. Yeah, you know, that's the thing is a lot of people in an attempt not to think about money

and not to make it important in their lives end up thinking about it all the time because you're constantly freaking out about not having enough. So, yeah, I had huge judgments around rich people. I thought they were all morally bankrupt. I don't know if I felt like money was evil necessarily. I felt more mad at it for not being easy for me to make and not available to me. It was sort of my more. That was my trip.

I see. Were you in debt? Yes. Can you share the details? How much? What kind? The juicy stuff. To whatever degree you're comfortable sharing that.

Yeah, I honestly don't remember. I had some student loans and had credit card debt, I think about $15,000 worth. Those are the only two things that come to mind were some student loans and the credit card debt. And so tell me about when you decided that you were going to put your focus towards making money. How did that decision come about? What was the catalyst? Well, there really wasn't a catalyst like, you know, I woke up and almost died or, you know, something. I think it's like any other aha moment, you know, you suddenly get it somehow.

You suddenly just become ready. So there wasn't, you know, for me, some big lightning bulb. But it was definitely, you know, I was like, all right, I am done. I am done. It's like when I quit smoking, I was just done. And it was, it really was just that decision. Just I was unavailable to hear myself whine about how I couldn't afford everything and feeling like I could be doing so much more with my life.

just wasn't doing it. It became so frustrating. Given that you were in your 40s at the time, did you doubt yourself or think like, I'm too old, I'm too old to make a change? Did you have any of that going on? Not after I made the decision. After I made the decision, there was no stopping me. So I didn't care if I was 100. I was doing it because I was so sick of my garbage around it. So when you decided to start focusing on attracting money into your life, what specific things did you do at that point forward. You know, since I focused on it, I was like, okay, well, what, what opportunities are around me right now?

So there were, you know, there was some money making seminars that I went to. And I started reading lots of self-help books about money and mindset. I just, you know, they say when the student is ready, the teacher appears. So all the stuff that was really already there that I was scoffing at because it was too cheesy or too woo-woo or, you know, I was going to be able to do it on my own. You know, once I made the decision to get help and to really focus on it, the opportunities that were already there suddenly became doable as opposed to something I would just, you know, not do. So I went to a lot of women entrepreneurial networking meetings, which I really didn't like very much, but I just

did every single solitary thing I could think of. What are some other examples of things that you might have previously scoffed at that you then started becoming open to. Well, I hired a life coach who I met at one of these meetings and she cost about a quarter of my annual income. And that is definitely something I never would have done. So I went deeper into credit card debt to pay for her services. And that was a huge catalyst that changed my life. But yeah, that would not have happened if I hadn't made the decision. Wow. Tell me about deciding to do that because that must have been scary to devote that much of your income to a single purchase. Yeah, I was terrifying, but she specialized in helping women with their finances. And, you know, she had her electricity turned off

and she was making high six figures. So I really believed that she could help me. And so I did. I made that commitment. It was one of the most terrifying things I ever did. And I called her up right after I paid her and begged her for my money back. And she was like, you know, this is probably the most important money you'll ever spend. And it really was. I mean, you don't get just by spending the money. I believe me, I had plenty of clients pay me tons of money to help them and then they don't follow through. So just spending the money wasn't everything, but it lit a huge fire under my ass. And then I really, I did every single thing she said after that, but it was a huge first leap. Wow. And so you did find that to be a good decision down the road? Oh, yeah. Wow. Wow. Okay. Did she know that you were,

paying so much of your money towards her while simultaneously in debt? Was she aware of that? Yeah. And she was okay with that? I mean, I'm just, I'm curious as to how that conversation went. Well, you know, it's so funny. You know, in our culture, debt is like the big bad wolf. You're supposed to do everything you can to avoid going into debt. And I am not a huge, you know, I think it is a last resort thing. but if I had waited to make that money, it was a quarter of my income. If I had waited to make the amount of money she charged, I'd still be in the garage right now. So part of changing your life is doing stuff that scares a living crap out of you and getting outside of your comfort zone and taking risks.

And a lot of times it's a financial risk you've got to take, you know, taking out a loan to rent the space to put your business in or paying somebody the way I paid them. Like, you've got to take scary risks. And it doesn't always work out, but it was worth the risk to me. Wow. Wow. So what happened next? You hired a life coach. You began going to entrepreneurship meetings and entrepreneurship meetups. What came from that? That sounds like where the education and inspiration came from. How did you apply that into your life? Most of the networking meetings were honestly to get clients to meet other women. Because I had started with this coach, I started a business helping entrepreneurial women learn how to write and stuff. sell their books. So I would go there to meet clients. I went to a lot of seminars by a lot of great speakers and coaches who helped me shift my mindset from one of fear and doubt to one of,

you know, taking big risks and having faith and all that stuff. And just, you know, it also made, because a lot of it was not stuff I enjoyed quite frankly. Like I'm not a big group networking person. But it also, it made me feel like, it made me feel like, I was doing something in the direction instead of just sitting at home being pissed off or confused or wishing there was something better. You know what I mean? Like there was something about the fact that I didn't like that made it almost better in a way because I felt like I was putting in the time and I was doing the work and that I was

really sticking to my decision to do whatever it took. And the fact that it was uncomfortable made it feel more real to me. If it was all easy and fun and yada yada, not that I would have been opposed to it being easy and fun. But yeah, I mean, and it was helpful. I met a lot of really great people and got turned on to so many amazing mentors and speakers that way. Were there points when you doubted the path that you were on? And if so, how did you cope with that? You know, I didn't really because I was so hell-bent to change my life. In the early days, definitely not.

Again, a lot of it sort of rubbed me the wrong way. But honestly, I started making money so quickly with the business that I set up that that was my, my goal and my goal was coming true so I didn't doubt a damn thing I was like bring on more of this like this is awesome I didn't love the idea of being the book lady like since as I said I was helping people write and sell their nonfiction books I was like you know this is it's not the sexiest thing I could be doing with my life and I know I've got so much more to give but since I really didn't know what the hell I wanted to do with my life I was like this is right now it's about making money this is making me money I'm good at it I'm helping people let's just keep rolling with this and then just by constantly showing up as that person, you know, the reason people don't write their own books

is not because they can't write. It's because they're full of doubt. They feel like they don't have the right to say what they need to say. You know, they're insecure. So I ended up life coaching them anyway. And that's how I became a life coach was by coaching writers on their books. And I assume at that point you had already published a couple of books? Yes. Okay. Were you also working on your next book at that time? So were you like trying to make money sort of through multiple streams of income? No, I was only working on building up my online coaching business. Yeah, no, I wasn't writing anything because it was, you know, writing had proven itself to not be very lucrative for me. So I wasn't, and the decision was all about the money.

So anything that didn't make money was kicked to the curb. Interesting. So tell me about, you began, you began finding clients fairly quickly. How quickly is fairly quickly? Like within a few months? Yes. I think I tripled my income within the first three months of starting that business. Wow. Wow. That's incredible. Yeah, it was amazing. And so that's why I was like, no doubt going on here. Like, I'm in. I was working my ass off. But I was working my ass off as a freelance writer also. And, you know, I wasn't making any money. So fine with me. Wow. Once you tripled your income, after those first three months, what happened next? Like, were you caught by some fear of success? Were you just on fire to keep growing? I mean, where do you go from there? I kept growing. And that's where the coach was really helpful. I mean, she kept making me double

my rates, kept expanding the business, kept growing. I mean, it was really, really exciting. Nice. How long ago was this? Oh, gosh. This was probably 10 years ago, maybe, nine. Nice. Wow. Wow. Wow. Awesome. So then what? Kind of walk us through your life after that. So we've got broke Jen through her 20s and 30s. Then all of a sudden, in a very short time, you start making money and you start having all of this abundance. How did that change your mindset and your life? Well, you know, once you see that something like that is possible, and especially something that you've decided your whole life is not possible, it changes everything. You know, it. really shifted. It put me in a completely different financial reality. It made me understand how powerful all this woo-woo stuff is. And a lot of stuff that I talk about and badass at making money is your mindset. And shifting my mindset around this was the only reason it happened.

You know, it was really that decision. Now, the decision led to all the actions I took, but, you know, I would never have taken them if I hadn't made the decision. And And the other thing that it really showed me is that it's not hard. This stuff, like making money wasn't that hard. It was scary. Like paying that coach that money was scary, but it wasn't hard. You know, I think we're really raised with this belief that you got to work really hard to make money.

And again, I did work hard, but it wasn't like, it wasn't nearly as hard as constantly hustling for freelance writing work, writing the work that I did get, which, you know, is very hard. Writing is a difficult task for me. You know, and then constantly stressing about money and making all of my decision based on how much everything costs, not on how much joy it will bring into my life. So it was actually easier. I just had to face a lot of fears. So that was, I guess, the hard part was, you know, putting up my shingle saying that I knew how to coach, I'd never coached riders before I was a writer, but I wasn't a coach. So that was terrifying. Charging money for this was terrifying. You know, after the first two class, you know, two

rounds of this course that I taught my coach made me double my rate. So that was terrifying. But it wasn't hard. It was just being willing to take these bigger and bigger, scarier and scarier steps. When you found that fear was an obstacle, how did you get through that? Did you just grit your teeth and push through it? Or were there's certain? It's the decision. It's so simple and so stupid, but because I had decided I was making money, I was focused on my decision and what I needed to do. And of course, fear was everywhere, but it was like, okay, I'm scared and I've decided

I'm doing this. You know, everybody's done it to some degree. It's like, have a baby. Well, you know, like, it's terrifying. There are a million question marks to having children, but you've decided you're doing it, so you're doing it anyway. The fears are still there. They're not going away, but you've made the decision to do it more important.

important to the fear and that's what you're focusing on. Buying a house, same thing. Asking somebody out who's out of your league. It's like, whatever it is, the fear is still there. But when you've made the decision, that becomes more important than the drama and the fear. How did having money change your relationship with the people around you? Or I guess I should take that question a step back. Did having money change your relationship with the people around you, your friends, your family? Yeah, I mean, whenever we change, everything changes, right? So I was very identified as somebody who was broke and struggling for money. And a lot of my friends were in the same boat. And everybody knew me as that person. So when I started making money, I was also very focused on money, which made people very uncomfortable. And I lost some friends because of it because they thought I was this money grubbing obsessive. of, you know, single-focused person, which I totally was. But again, if it had been about losing weight, it wouldn't have been as offensive. You know, and it's not like I was making money doing horrible

things, but it made them very uncomfortable. So that changed and ended some of those relationships. Some people in my life were really excited and started working on themselves because they saw the results I was getting. Some people were really uncomfortable and made a lot of fun of about it. You know, when you change, you know, these people in your life, especially the ones closest to you, they risk, they're losing you. You are killing your old identity. So they're losing the person that they know and love, which makes them very upset. And it also, when you change, it makes them look at their lives and they may not be ready to look at themselves and be like, ha, well, maybe there's some things about my life that I could change too. When you put a mirror

up to somebody like that, it's not always a welcome mirror. As you were saying that, that's funny. I was just thinking about a mirror, like the concept of every person, like, is a mirror and people either like or don't like what they see reflected back. And that often shapes how they, whether or not they like or dislike you. True. Yeah. We'll come back to this episode after this word from our sponsors. Fifth Third Bank's commercial payments are fast and efficient, but they're not just

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Terms apply. Don't miss out on Early Black Friday. Deals, head to Wayfair.com now to shop Wayfair's Black Friday deals for up to 70% off. That's W-A-Y-F-A-I-R.com. Sale ends December 7th. So you wrote a book that went on to become a massive bestseller called You Are a Badass. Where does that fit in with this storyline? Part of this journey of mine was I read every single self-help book under the sun.

While I was reading, there's so much great information out there. But I remember thinking that it wasn't, there wasn't anything that was kind of fun to read. It was all very profound and serious and earnest. And I was, you know, and I'm a comedy writer anyway. And I was like, wouldn't it be great if somebody wrote a book with all this incredible information in a funny, irreverent voice? So I just got that idea because that's sort of the kind of writer I am. And it was a kind of book I would have loved to have read.

And I also think this information, a lot of the self-development stuff, can hear it a million times before you finally really hear it. And so sometimes hearing it in a new voice can completely make the light go on. So I wanted to give people that opportunity. And I also wanted to appeal to people who wouldn't be caught dead reading a self-help book, you know, who really wanted to change our lives, who were just too cool for school, which is exactly what I was. I was the snarkiest, most cynical, you know, didn't want to be any part of that self-help crap. So I want to to usher in a new audience. And so I had the idea while I was going through all my, you know, while I was building this business and everything. But I honestly just didn't have the time to do it because I was

really focused on building my business. And then once it sort of got some momentum, probably around seven, eight, nine, ten, probably about five years, four, four years into my online business. I sat down and wrote the book proposal and sold the idea and then wrote it. Nice. Did the success? The best of the book surprise you? Yeah. I mean, it's bananas. I mean, I know it's a good book, but it's so little crazy.

I mean, we're still, we've been on the bestseller list for over a year now. We were just number one again last week. Like, it's just, it's staggering. It's so incredible. Congratulations. Thank you. What was your response to that? Like, how did the success of that book, how did it land with you?

You know, it, um, it's, of course, so. exciting and it's just incredible to think that it's helping that many people. It also doesn't really feel like it's happening to me. Like I definitely take credit for writing it and I'm very proud of it. I also, I just, I know so many writers who are just as talented, who've written incredible books who haven't hit the bullseye like that. So I think that it's awesome and I think it just as easily could not have happened because I spent, you know, this is my fourth book. I mean, badass is my third book. And, you know, my other two books were just as good.

So it's just, it's interesting when you hit a wave in the consciousness that is just so ready for you to fill it with what it is that you have to say. So, yeah, it's, it's awesome. But really, it's just amazing. That's excellent. I think that's really interesting, the notion of, like, it almost doesn't feel like it's happening to me. Because when I hear that, it circles back to, you know, what you talked about at, beginning of this interview, the idea that a lot of us have that success happens to other people. And even when it is happening to us, we still, at some level, kind of wonder if it's happening

to somebody else. Yeah. And it's, you know, it's funny because I'll, you know, hear from my publisher that we just were in over 20 languages. We just got it published in like Lockhevan or some language I haven't even honestly even heard of. And I was like, oh, my God, how does the sense of humor even translate? But, you know, and I'll get this email while I'm sitting in my robe with my dog on my lap.

You know, it's like this glamorous book is out there and all these languages and on the New York Times list and doing all this fancy, fancy things that I'm in my robe barefoot at my kitchen counter. You know, so that's how I, when I feel like it is this really happening to me? Because I'm just in the kitchen in my robe. And then there's other phenomenon out there happening. So. Nice. But I do own it also. I mean, it's really, especially when I go on, you know, going on.

tour and with the new book. It's really exciting. And I feel very passionate about all of the information. So I'm so grateful that I have such a platform to share stuff that I think is so incredibly important and stuff that's just absolutely changed my own life. Nice. So let's talk about the new book because this new book, you are a badass at making money. I mean, what made you decide to focus specifically on making money? Well, it was my big stumbling block. It was the impetus for writing the original badass book. And I just wanted to go into deeper detail of that particular topic because if there's one thing I knew I could write about really well was being broke and then not being broke anymore. And I really truly feel like if my broke ass can make the

kind of money I'm making now, anybody can do it. So I really wanted to share that. And also, I've been a coach for over 10 years now and so many of my clients and the people who read You Are Badass are reading it because of money issues. So I think it's a really important topic that is very universally confounding to so many people. Yeah. Yeah, it is. Towards the beginning of the book, you have this list that I absolutely love of like commonly held beliefs that people have around money. And this is something I've been thinking about and kind of chatting about on the podcast recently. Beliefs like, you know, money isn't important. People are as though you would have to choose almost as like the unstated premise. Or you have to work hard to make money,

which, you know, is true but also there's more nuance to that. Or you can't make money doing something you love. Or you can't make money unless you went to a really good school. Or there's never enough money or you don't want to be a sellout or it's lonely at the top. It's a fantastic list. I love it. Was there a point where you held some or most of these beliefs? And how did you get over that? I definitely held some of them. I got over it by noticing what they were. A lot of the work in the book that we do is getting people clear on what they're holding as the truth. I mean, the thing that's so interesting about all those things, we don't even question them. We just think it's true that money's hard to make and you have to work hard to make money.

We don't even, for one moment, doubt it. So all this mindset shifting work is about questioning everything. And that's where it gets really exciting because you suddenly realize that your entire reality is based on these beliefs that aren't even true. And then it opens up an entire new world, an entire new reality. So the first step is to get very clear on what it is that you've been buying into and just assuming is the truth. And if it's a belief that is holding you back from making money, choosing a new belief. And that sounds really stupid and really easy, but it is one of the most powerful things you can do.

How do you get yourself to believe that new belief? You hammer yourself with it. I mean, there's a couple of ways. First, you have to really look at it. So for me, my belief was I can't afford it. So everything I said, I can't afford it to, right? So let's say this new coach comes up and she's a quarter of my annual income. So the old me before I made the decision, I'd be like, yeah, can't afford it.

I'm in debt. I got la la la, la. Because I had made the decision, I was like, okay, I'm not available for I can't afford it anymore. So how do I afford it? Money, you know, so my new mantra was I live in an abundant universe and I receive money with great glee. That was my new mantra from I can't afford it, right? So that money is abundant. I live in an abundant universe and I receive money with greatly. So then I was like, okay, where do I receive this money fund? What can I do? How can I afford this? It shifted where I was looking and I was like,

I actually can't afford it because I can take out another credit card and put it on there. And as terrifying as it was, the money actually was there when I decided I needed it. And so a lot of the stuff that is holding us back has another opposite truth that goes along with it. And when you question it, so let's say, I suck at making money is your thing. I've never made any money. I suck at making money. You can question that. Have you ever made any money? Any? You're like, yeah, well, I've made some money. okay so if you've made some money does that mean that you could possibly make more money and then the answer is yes and you're like okay so if you could make more money doesn't that mean that you could probably make ass loads of money so when you start to deconstruct it and go deeper and

deeper and deeper into the question you realize that you're making it all up that you're choosing to focus on this truth and by focusing on it you pile up all of the things that prove that you're correct because we love being correct. So if you say I suck at making money, you will look at your empty bank account, you'll look at your crappy paycheck, you'll look at the amount you make per hour, you'll look at your history of never having any money. All those things will make it correct. When you start to question it, you start to look at, well, yeah, I did make money once. Yeah, I did have some money in my savings account. You just shift your focus. And the second you shift your focus, you start looking at a whole new reality. And that's how you start believing it. And then you

hammer yourself with it, where you keep saying the new belief over and over and over every time you have the impulse to say the old belief. And in your book, you talk about the power of words and of being extremely conscious about what comes out of your mouth because we believe what we say. Yes. Yes. Okay. Tell me a little bit about that.

Was that something that you realized during this journey? Or was that as a writer, is that something you've always known? Or did you just start listening to yourself and then hear some of the negative self-talk come out of your own mouth, almost like you're observing yourself? Yeah, and that's, you know, what I was saying with this thing. Like, when you hear yourself saying, I can't afford it or I suck at making money, like those words, you got to pay attention to them. And then you literally replace them with new words. And the key is, is to replace them with words that bring up some kind of emotion. You know, it's got to be something that excites you or else it's just empty words. And, you know, at first, you may not believe it. Like, at first I was like, okay, I live in an abundant universe and money, I received money with great glee. Like, I hadn't seen any. proof of that yet, but it made me feel better. It made me feel a hell of a lot better than saying I can't afford it. So I was like, that's the truth I want to believe. And so I'm going to go with it until it becomes real in my life. And then it will be the absolute truth. And I'll see the proof of it. But I'm going to go with the feeling first. Right, right. Are there any other examples of

certain words that you heard yourself say that you had to cut out? I don't know. It was a big one. for me. I don't know what I'm doing was a big one. I felt like I had no idea how to make money and I didn't know. Yeah, I just didn't know what I was doing. So instead of saying, I don't know, I was saying answers are all around me. Right. Or I'll figure it out. Yep. Yeah. Wow, that's a great one. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it really changes the energy. Yeah. Yeah, it does. What about, you mentioned earlier that you spent a lot of time getting spun up in the, I don't know what I want to do with my life, therefore I'm not going to do anything. Stagnation spiral. And then it sounds like the specific steps that you took when you decided that

you wanted to make money, you became laser focused on developing a very specific type of business. You wanted to coach first time nonfiction writers, book writers. How did you make a decision and stick to it? If you had been repeating the script of I don't really know what I want to do with my life? Because I had decided that answers are all around me. And my coach at the time, this is where the coach was so helpful. She was just like, you can totally make money doing this. You're already a successful writer. You've been going to all these women networking meetings. You've got an audience that will pay you to do this thing that you already know how to do. So let's roll. And then because I started making money so quickly, I was, that's I stuck with it because it was working. So it sounds like you just picked, of the many things that you could possibly do, you just, you picked one and you went with it. Yeah, which I think is really critical, because if you try and do a lot of things at once, you will never get it off the ground, you've got to pick one and stay with it. How long do you stay with it if it's not working? I mean, you've mentioned that you had external validation fairly quickly.

What if you hadn't had that? What if six months or nine months had gone by without that external validation? At what point do you pivot? It really depends on what the project is and how honest you're being about what's going on. So you look at all the places that you might be sabotaging yourself because a lot of times we sabotage ourselves. We pretend we're doing all the work and that we're moving forward, but we're actually terrified of success. So you've got to get really clear about are you really doing everything in your power to make this successful? and are there some super freaking scary things you could be doing that you're not doing to make this successful, right?

So mine was doubling my rates. Mine was going up to strangers and telling them what I did. You know, I did a lot of stuff that scared the hell out of me that I totally did not want to do on a regular basis because I was dedicated to getting this thing rocking. And so when it's not working out, you have to really look at what you're doing. doing. I also think getting help from somebody who is successful in your industry is critical because they can spot something that you may take three years to figure out they can spot it in like five seconds because they've done it before. So plunking down the money to get a consultant is a very wise choice. You know, and that consultant may be like, you know what, this actually

isn't working and you either need to ditch this business or you need to course correct in A, B, and C ways. But I really think honestly, that is usually the case. People have made tons of money doing the most ridiculous things. So, you know, I think if your heart is in it and you're being brave and doing the scary thing and course correcting and getting insights from people who know more than you do and taken risks, sometimes it is a waiting game. And there is no way to honestly tell if it is time to throw in a towel or not. I don't honestly have an answer for that. I think that's sort of a cryptic, very personal thing. But the more important thing is, how badly do you want it? If it's that important to you, you stay with it until you get it because you got one shot on this earth as you. And if this is something you know you're here to do, you stay with it. What specific steps should people, like the people who are listening to this, who are thinking, okay, yeah, I want to make more money. What specific step can they take today?

to get started on that journey? Get specific on how much money, because just wanting to make more money, it ain't going to get nowhere. So get very specific on how much money and what it's for. So when I was starting out, I hate being in debt and putting that extra money on my already, you know, $10,000, $15,000 that made me crazy. So in the early days, I had a solid number, you know, that plus my student loans. I was like, I have got to get out of debt.

I hate it. And this is the amount of money I want to make this year so that I can knock this out of the park and not have it anymore. And so I was a fire breathing dragon about making that money. And the nice thing that what that does is when you, you know, if you've got a specific amount and it's for a specific thing that is very important to you, those times where you would give up or not take that risk and not stretch yourself, you will take the risk.

And you will stretch yourself because it's got meaning attached. It's got emotion attached and it's got specificity attached. When you're vague, I want to make more money. You're not going to do anything. It's like, who cares? We all want to make money. But so get really clear on what it's for and what it's going to change in your life and feel that feeling every, all the time.

It is your mission. And the other thing is be okay with making, be okay with, saying to yourself, I am making money right now. Like that is where I'm placing my focus. It's not going to be forever. You get to focus on other things. But, you know, when you're making a big ass change in your life, especially if you're like I was and you've never made any money before in your life, you've got to make that

a priority. It can't be something that you are kind of doing on the side while you're doing 8 million other things because that's how you got to where you are now. We don't let ourselves make making money a priority because we've been raised to think that is gross and lacking in moral fiber. and not okay. So you've got to be okay with it and you've got to make it

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How does this apply to people who don't want to start businesses, to people who want to stay in the W2 workforce? If you're at a job that isn't making the kind of money that you want to make, you got to make some changes. You know, just sitting there hoping you'll make more money is not going to cut it. So you've got to ask for that raise. You've got to seek a promotion. You maybe come up with some new ways that you could benefit your company that you feel that you should make. more money for doing. You've got to get creative. You know, when you work for somebody else, they do dictate your salary. So if you want to stay within that framework and work for this person

and they refuse to pay you what you want to pay no matter what you do, you probably got to quit and go find another job. You know, because the other option is, or, you know, get something going on the side and keep the job you have, you know, which is certainly viable. People do it all the time and make great money with their side gigs, you just don't want to spend all of your waking hours working. So as long as a side gig is something that you can, you know, maybe at first you're working your ass off, but you can see it's sort of like gaining some momentum and bringing in the extra money you like and you want and it's something you like to do, then that's absolutely an option as well. Yeah, how long is it, well, let me rephrase this.

How do you, if you're, when you're on fire, you want to make money because you have mission, emotion, and purpose. And you're ready to devote all of your time to it. I guess how much time is all of your time and how sustainable is that? Like to the people who are really truly like the fire breathing dragon right now, what can they do, those people who are listening to not get burned out while they're current. in the middle of their like sprint? You know, they say a plane uses 70% of its fuel at takeoff. So I'm not going to lie, the beginning out of the gate sprint can be a total bitch. But because you're excited about this change, I mean, for me, before I saw any results,

I was just so damn excited. I was finally doing something and that I was. I felt like, okay, this could absolutely work. Like, I was, I was working my ass off and, you know, before I saw any results, but I was happy to do it because I really had faith that it was going to work. So, and, you know, I had to do a lot of stuff I didn't want to do when I was tired and there are certainly things I would have rather done and, you know, put up my sales page and make sales calls and whatever.

But that wasn't the point. The point was I was changing my life. And that was all that mattered to me. So I would say stay very attached to your why. Get very clear on why you are doing this. And when you get tired, when you're starting to feel fear that maybe it's not going to work, whatever comes up for you, beat it back into the closet with your why and that emotion. And you know, the one constant in this world is change.

That's the one thing that we know is always going to be there. You're going to die and things are going to change. Those are the two things you can always count on. So it's not going to be like that forever. But you do have to get some hustle in there in the beginning for sure. Nice. Well, thank you. Is there anything that I haven't asked about that you want to share that you want to emphasize?

I think that if you don't have the money you want to have, this piece about allowance is so important. And I wrote a whole chapter on it and you are a badass at making money because I felt like it was something that we really don't talk a lot about and that it's so critical. I mean, you can read all the books you want on investing wisely and how to start a business or how to make, you know, how to do sales and all that great important information. But if you haven't worked on allowing yourself to get rich, you're not going to get anywhere because that's all of your subconscious and all of your fears and all. And that will basically make it be like you're driving with one foot on the gas, doing all this work, but you've got one big foot on the break because you're terrified that making

money will mean you're a bad person or you'll lose everybody you love or you'll look like a complete idiot because you're going to fail. Like whatever it is, it's in your little heart that is that you're holding on to that makes you feel badly about making money you've got to pay attention to that absolutely before you start doing any of this other stuff because that will be a huge oil slick in your progress. Nice. Nice. Well, thank you so much, Jen. You are a badass at making money. I freaking love the title of the book. Thank you. Yeah. And it's just, it's super well. I mean, I recommend it to everyone listening. Like, just your writing style is so captivating and funny. Thank you. I really appreciate that. Thank you so much for having me on. This was really, really great.

Huge thanks to Jen for taking the time to chat with us on this show. So what are some of the key takeaways that have come out of this conversation that we had with Jen. Well, for me, there were three. And specifically, there were three things that she said during the interview that triggered for me, like little light bulbs that went off. So I want to share them with you. Number one was when she talked about how her framework, her whole perspective on money, changed after she got just a little bit of external validation. Here's what she said. Well, you know, once you see that something like that is,

possible, and especially something that you've decided your whole life is not possible. It changes everything. Jen spent two decades of her adult life believing that she couldn't make money, that making money was something that happened to other people but not her. She was a freelance writer. She wasn't good at making money. She had those scripts. And she had to decide to act in spite of her doubts in order to open herself up to the possibility of making money. And once she did, within a relatively short time span, not to say that it's going to happen that quickly for everyone, but for her, within a relatively short time span, she started making money. And when that happened, as she says, it completely changed her entire framework.

She realized that this thing that she had believed for decades was, in fact, wrong. She'd just proven herself wrong. And so that I thought was a bit of an aha. It was a bit of a takeaway that we believe whatever it is that we tell ourselves. And if we take the time to take action in spite of that deeply internalized belief, then the consequences of those actions that we take could lead to like just irrefutable proof that that belief is wrong. So, you know, for her, she believed that she couldn't make money. She took action to make money anyway. And then she made a bunch of money. And as a result, she had irrefutable proof in front of her that her belief was wrong. And that changed everything. It changed her framework. It changed her paradigm.

So that I thought was a really key core of the message that she shared with us. That was key takeaway number one for me. Here's key takeaway number two. You know, everybody's done it to some degree. It's like, have a baby. Well, you know, like, it's terrifying. There are a million question marks to having children. but you've decided you're doing it so you're doing it anyway.

The fears are still there. They're not going away, but you've made the decision to do it more important than the fear. And that's what you're focusing on. You've made the decision to do it more important than the fear. When I heard that, that was powerful. Jen's message is not that the fear goes away. Her message is, yeah, it's going to suck. You're going to be afraid.

You just have to decide to do it anyway. You just have to go forth despite all of that fear. And she's totally right. Making money or building a business or deciding to retire early, these are not activities that are unique to fear. Like they don't have an exclusive contract with fear. People feel afraid at all kinds of points in their life. You might have felt afraid to start college,

to graduate from high school and go to college for the first time and move away from home. That was probably scary. Having a baby, probably scary. Getting your first job after college, probably scary. Going to your first foreign country, probably scary. But yet you do all of these things anyway. And so deciding to start a business, deciding to really ramp up your investments, deciding to buy a rental property, or to retire early and making the decision that you're going to do that and then taking the steps, working backwards to take the steps necessary to do what it takes. All of those are, in essence, no different than any other scary. everything that you've done in your life. It's scary and you do it anyway. And then eventually you get to the point where you look back and you don't even remember the fear because that just seems like a historic footnote. Like when I look back on leaving high school and moving out of state to college, I don't remember being afraid, although I'm sure I was. But that just becomes a historic footnote in the story of your life, even though it feels big in the moment. So that

really stood out for me. And then there's key takeaway number three. For me, my belief was I can't afford it. So everything I said, I can't afford it to, right? So let's say this new coach comes up and she's a quarter of my annual income. So the old me before I made the decision, I'd be like, yeah, can't afford it. I'm in debt. I got la la la. Because I had made the decision, I was like, okay, I'm not available for I can't afford it anymore. I'm not available for I can't afford it anymore. I freaking loved it when she said that. I'm not available for the phrase I can't afford it. No, not going to happen. Not available for it. Not listening. Not going to say it. Those words are never going to come out of my mouth again. I love that commitment. Because I remember a time when I made a very conscious

commitment to never saying that phrase again. And it's true. It's very powerful. Once you decide that you're not going to say I can't afford it. Your mindset changes. And you do start thinking more in terms of how do I afford it. Is it a priority? Do I really want this? By the way, I do want to make a comment. So those three were the takeaways that I got, primary takeaways that I got from this conversation with Jen. I do want to make a comment on something that she said when Jen talked about paying a quarter of her income to hire a coach despite the fact that she had consumer debt, like credit card debt, which I assume was probably at a fairly high interest rate, that made me really uncomfortable. Because if you know me, if you've been listening to this show for a while, you know that I treat high interest debt, I see that as an emergency. And I see that as like, whoa, hold the phone. Let's pull out all the stops.

We're going to get rid of this credit card debt. And then we're going to move on. So it did make me uncomfortable to hear that. And to be perfectly honest, there was a part of my brain that was like, should I edit this out? And I decided not to because it's not my place to, I don't believe in censorship. And it's not my place to censor information like that. My goal is to give you the information and the critical thinking tools and skills necessary so that you can make your own. wise decisions. So for those of you who've been listening to this show for a while, you know what my stance on credit card debt is. Now you've heard somebody else's stance and you've heard some of the follow-up questions that I asked her during the interview about that. You're a grown-up. Make your own decision. So I just wanted to share that because that kind of came up for me during the interview. And that to me was the most uncomfortable part of the interview. And that's a good thing because

leaning into the discomfort is how we grow. All right. And we are best. It's September 2020, and you have just listened to an episode that originally aired back in 2017, but we love so much and we feel is so relevant five years later that we want to make sure that everyone who started listening to this podcast in the last five years, who might not have heard that episode when it originally aired, we want to make sure that you heard it again. So I hope you enjoyed it. This is the first of four features that we are running in the month of September. So during the month of September, we are running four of our favorite interviews from our archives.

And we theme these four around F-I-R-E, financial psychology, investing, real estate, and entrepreneurship. So what you heard today was the letter F. You heard financial psychology. Coming up next week, we're going to air one of our favorites reflecting the letter I, investing, which is something on everybody's mind right now, given the state of the market, the very volatile state of the market. So we won't tell you who it is. You're going to have to tune in to find out, but make sure that you hit subscribe on whatever

podcast playing app you're using so that you don't miss that episode or any of the other amazing episodes in our September sabbatical sequence. Ooh, say that five times best. This is Paula Pant. If you want to find out more about what I'm up to right now, I'm in my fellowship at Columbia University, you can follow me on Instagram. I'm there at Paula Pant, P-A-U-L-A, P-A-N-T. Thank you so much for tuning in. You can chat about this episode with other members of the community at afford-anything.com slash community.

In our book club, we are about to start reading the book Happy Money by Ken Honda. By the way, our interview with Ken Honda is one of our most. watched YouTube episodes. 211,000 views on YouTube. And by the way, when I say YouTube episodes, we are audio only on YouTube. We don't even have video. We put this podcast just the audio on YouTube so that people can listen,

if that's how you prefer to listen. The episode that we did with Ken Honda, who is the Japanese Zen Millionaire, is overwhelmingly one of the favorites. Ken Honda writes about the Japanese art of making peace with your money. He talks about how to treat money as a lot. welcome guest, how to let it come and go with respect, how to unpack the myth of scarcity, how to embrace the process of giving and generosity, and how to improve your money EQ, your emotional

relationship with money. He writes about all of that in his book, Happy Money, and we are about to start reading that in our book club. To join the book club, go to fable.combe.com slash afford anything. That's fable, fable, fable, F-B-L-C-O-S-A-A-F-E-F-E-F-E-E-F-E-E-E-E. If you're enjoying this, most importantly, share it with a friend, share it with a family member. If you heard something and you're like, oh, I know someone who could really benefit from listening to this, share this with them. That's the single most important thing that you can do to spread the message of fixing your mental frameworks around money.

Thank you again for tuning in. Thank you so much for being part of this community. My name is Paula Pant. This is the Afford Anything podcast, and I will catch you in the next episode.