After Dark: Myths, Misdeeds & the Paranormal - Banshees: Herald of Death

Episode Date: December 29, 2025

Today we're delving back into the After Dark vaults to revisit our episode on Banshees...Siobhan McSweeney (Derry Girls) joins Anthony Delaney and Maddy Pelling for the story of the Banshee.The Banshee is a female spirit in Irish folklore who heralds the death of a family member, usually by shrieking, or keening. Anthony tells us a story about one dying man in 1772 who is called to his death by her wailing cries.Written by Anthony Delaney. Edited by Tom Delargy. Senior Producer is Charlotte Long.You can now watch After Dark on Youtube! www.youtube.com/@afterdarkhistoryhitSign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries, with a new release every week and ad-free podcasts. Sign up at https://www.historyhit.com/subscribe.  All music from Epidemic Sounds.After Dark: Myths, Misdeeds & the Paranormal is a History Hit podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hi there, it's Maddie. I'm just jumping in to let you know that this episode contains some sensitive content. So if that's not for you, check out our back catalogue of amazing episodes. And if you're sticking with us, enjoy. Cork, Ireland, the 14th of September 1772. Charles Bunworth is dead. Bunworth was a beloved Church of Ireland rector and harpist, who had long helped join religious divides in the town of Brigog, and beyond. He was affectionately referred to as the minister. A fluent Irish speaker and the descendant of the Irish patriot John Philpott Curran,

in life Bunworth had been well versed in the traditions and folklore of Ireland. His death, however, had not come as a surprise to some. The supposed circumstances surrounding Bunworth's death were documented by his great-great-grandson, Thomas Crofter Croker, in fairy legends and traditions of the South of Ireland in 1825. In it, Crofton Croker assures his readers that, quote, There are still living credible witnesses who can declare the authenticity of what follows, and who can be produced to attest most, if not all, of the following particulars.

But what were those particulars? What was so notable about Bunworth's death? Well, according to his great-great-grandson, his passing had been foretold by a haggard old lady, sitting under a tree near his house almost a week before he died. There was no doubt in the minds of the people of Burgogh that they had been visited by none other than the Banshee herself. Welcome to After Dark, myths, misdeeds and the paranormal.

We have a really incredible episode today, and I'm going to let Anthony introduce our guest because she is a very good friend of his. Anthony? Yes, we have a special guest in the studio today, an expert in all things history, and that is the one and only, Chavonne McSweeney. And listen, I could wax lyrical about Chavonne's recent BAFTAWIN

or her hosting credentials on Great Pottery Throwdown or her iconic role as Sister Michael on Derry Girls. But to me, Chavon McSweeney will always be the actress who played my oldest sister in a play that we do not talk about anymore, about 10 or so years ago, probably more than 10 years now.

But since then, we've entertained each other with day trips to period properties and gone on country walks and took the hind legs of each other and put the world rights several times over copious glasses of champagne. She is listeners, part of the family, and we are delighted to welcome her

to After Dark today. Welcome, Shabon. Yay! Hello! Hello, lovely to be here in person. When we tried to do this via Zoom, it was a lot easier to listen to that to that introduction now

I'm blushing and very awkward You say that but actually that was all contrived by you so you got to hear twice Yeah I know

It's just like Ah ha foiled again There were some nice things there I might like to hear those again We're also recording this several times So that oh oh whoops Take it from the top Just go from the introduction again

Do that one Yeah what did you say about me And was it about the BAFTA When you were most impressed or least of well actually the bit I was least impressed

with was the older sister you were my older sister only in matters of age well that's how we count

these things which is kind of one of the the key elements to how that panned out but we don't again we don't

talk about it we don't talk about it we don't we had a Maddie we had a it was my first ever play after drama school

we went to the same drama school but not the same time because Chvonne is older than I am Now, now. Yeah, it was funny, wasn't it? No.

No, no. No, it wasn't. It was nothing funny about it. It was a very mediocre friend show, which I think is sort of a rite of passage for every struggling actor at the start of their career. Or me, several years into my career. And look at you now. Bafters galore.

I can't move for the Bafters in this room right now. I'm sorry for bringing it with me. Yeah, it's in your bag as much. So in the opening section of the narrative, we have Bunworth dying in 1772. So in Ireland, we have a monarch who is the British monarch on the throne. It's George III. We are seeing a lot of unrest around Europe and in America, which will inevitably lead to revolutions there. There is then a rising of the United Irishman in Ireland in 1798, which ultimately fails.

But this is the kind of world in which Bunnworth. has been living in which he dies and in which then goes on to inform Ireland in the 19th century, which sees the beginning of the Gaelic revival. There are kind of bog bodies being discovered and being dug up. And there's this kind of reconnection to what Irishness means in the context of the British Empire. So the Banshee fits into these kind of stories in its own unique way. And Maddie, I'm just wondering, like, what do you know about Banshees from your perspective, of having come from outside Ireland.

To me, a Banshee is a little bit like a mermaid, maybe. I have been reliably informed. That is not the case and that they are not necessarily coastal. I also know that they're, I want to say specifically an Irish thing. It's something I'm guessing the pair of you grew up with in a way that I didn't in England. Is that fair? And what do you think, Shvon? Well, the way, I mean, it's a really good question whether it's uniquely Irish.

Banshee basically, you know, is getting. for a fairy woman, ban woman she of the fairies. So I don't know, maybe it's in Scotland as well. Yeah, do you know, I think it is kind of uniquely Irish and that it's linked to the directly to the... To the families. Well, it's linked directly to the families

and we'll get to that in just a second, but it's the two of the Danan. And if you don't know what the two of the Danan is, it's basically this kind of pre-Christian fairy folk that surreptitiously ruled Ireland. It was almost kind of folkloric and religious in its own sense and it was this kind of

army of fairy people basically who were manipulating the climate who were manipulating all different types of things and the Banshee comes from that kind of that mythology

and there was a Lannan Shia who was the spirit of life and then the Bansheida or the Banshee was the spirit of death and so there is this death associated so I do think

it's actually even more specific than Celticism I think it is Irish in that, because it's linked so specifically to the tour. To the one. Yeah, I mean, my understanding of it is actually not even as a woman, just as a wailing noise. So the sound is really important. Yeah, really, really important. So you hear her before you hear her.

Okay, okay. It's actually, I think, like, you almost try to block your ears. So if you don't hear it, it's a way of postponing to be inevitable. I did that as a child. Did you? Yeah, because I was. was on the border of sanity probably for 98% of my childhood. On the border of Kilkenny, I thought.

On the border of Kilkenny and Nietzsche, I was. But I do remember being in my bed with the bed clothes pulled up with the fingers in the ears and the things. Can anyone say anxiety? But honestly, I do remember going, no, we're not hearing this. I don't care what's going on. We're not hearing it. Because she was just around. Like, I think that probably helps if you've got a bit of an imagination.

But like, she seemed to be quite present. she did and I think perhaps uniquely rural certainly yeah with the wind maybe coming in through drafts or whatever yeah the fact that she would be a woman or a fairy woman it was only ever the voice that struck terror

I think and that's interesting right because that's an our generation thing I think because in like the 19th century it was very much a visual as well so it was a particular type of woman And so the long, and my great grandmother was alive when I was born. I remember seeing her, and I was just what I was saying. And I remember seeing her, God love her now that there's another Irish person in the room.

I'm suddenly got into all the colloquialisms. But I remember seeing her and she had long silver hair down to beneath her bum. Right. And I remember going, I am not going near that woman because she's obviously. This is a warning of death. And she did die eventually, God love her. But that's neither here in the air. Did you say a great, great?

No, one great. Okay. Maybe I did say great, great, great, but she was my great-grandmother. She was fantastic and your great-grandmother. She was a great-grandmother. She was a great-grandmother. Okay, so the Banshee is part of this fairy alternate world that has sort of tangible effects on real life? It's interesting to say that alternate world, because for the people who believed in the two, it wasn't alternate.

It was very much intertwined with how they experienced everyday life. So it was kind of far more present than we would even think of religion as being now or people who kind of follow certain religious beliefs. But we were talking about like listening out first. But actually, you'd be wasting your time slightly because the legend went that only certain families could hear her. Okay, so talk to me about that. Well, I'll list you some of the families. And you can see if you recognize any of these names.

And if you're listening in with any of these surnames, try not to get too freaked out. But if you're McCarthy, a Magraa, an O'Neill, and O'Reilly, and O'Sullivan, O'Reardon, O'Flaherty's. Essentially, any families that begin with O's or Mux are the people that she follows around. And during the research for this, I found out that the old iteration of my name was O'Dileney. Oh, really? Yeah, well, O'Doofloina in Irish. No, O'Reilly. And because I initially went looking for you, I was like, I bet you she's after Chabon's somehow.

And the Max are in there. The Max, yeah, and O'Neils. that's my mother's line and McCarthy and O'Sullivan I think yeah But what does that say about where you're from though? I think it says that there wasn't

A large enough gene pool A large enough gene pool in West Cork for several hundred years But it's interesting right Because this story is from Cork Yeah And you're from Cork And so there's obviously something about

that west coast of Ireland For anyone who doesn't know where Cork is It's on the West Coast, beautiful place Beautiful, very large Very large county Lots of King's ships handed out early on as sort of rewards for things. So you have a lot of so for, you know, the O'Neils, even the Max Wienies, all came down

from the north and sort of here, have this. Big chieftain land as well. So not only the identities of families are so important, but the fate of what's happening to them, right? And if they are doomed to die in some way, the banshee's altering the fate of the land, of the people in charge, that she's kind of tied to the story of the place and the people. in a way. Definitely tied to the story of the place, I think, in that, talking about that kind of fairy, integrated into the landscape thing. Do you know, this, I mean, you know, thank

God for the edit button. We'll be able to edit this if we need to. But Maddie, we were talking about Stoke there and you said that you, that's where you come from. And I'm staying there at the moment while I'm filming. Where I'm filming is in Bothera, but where I'm staying is in a village called Oakmoor, which has the oak, the chained oak. Yes, the famous chained oak that people might know from Alton Towers, actually. It's very close to Alton Towers. But it's really reminding me. It feels very pertinent to what we're talking about, actually,

but trying to withhold the curse or sort of defend against the banshee. Yeah, I think so. And I think, you know, we're talking about the banshee being specifically Irish. But, of course, England has its own folkloric traditions and also traditions that are more universal. And I think there's something about the history. of place and the landscape and a kind of wildness that I guess brings out an anxiety in people a feeling of unease maybe and it's exactly the same so for anyone who doesn't know in staffordshire

there's this really ancient huge oak tree that has i think already decades if not centuries old chains holding some of the branches in place and there's a folklore story of the family who owned the land i think they deny help to an old woman on the road and she says when the branches fall from the tree, members of your family will die and that starts to happen. And so the guy who owns the tree starts to chain it up. And I think there's so much there about yeah, sort of family

faith. It's a preservation of land, I think. And of status and of title. And old women foretelling death. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Whatever kind of border they're supposed to be inhabiting between life and death they're able to kind of bring that forth. There's kind of a magic in it

almost that they're able to kind of inhabit. Yeah. Totally. Totally. Well, it's sort of that Youngian archetype, isn't it? The sort of... Oh, she's off now. Yeah. Young, you know. No, but there is something about these collective images we have in most cultures

where, like, the idea of the hag woman or the older woman, that being profoundly mysterious and profoundly scary. And being a direct enemy to patriarchal lines of lineage as well. She's a threat to your familial status, I guess. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So let's get to Bunworth specifically, Anthony. In your narrative, you talk about Charles Bunworth, who dies in 1772.

So why is the Banshee associated with him specifically? And why is it sort of after he's died that this story is attached to him? I think the answer for that might lie in fiction, really. What you'll find in kind of later 19th century Ireland when this story starts to gain momentum. It was written initially in the early. 19th century, but the momentum gathers in the later 19th century. There is this kind of

Gaelic revival happening in Ireland. And often with kind of middle and upper classes, even, that would have been more associated with land holding and land ownership. But what they're trying to do, and it's interesting because you've just spoken about this in terms of the Banshee and other folklore things, but it's connecting back to the

land. And they're trying to reconnect going, actually, whose land is this? What is the culture of this country? And so there's this kind of revival in 19th century. A revival and reinvention. A hundred percent re-invention. Yeah. It's not a real reflection of what it was. No. No, no. It's quite almost this area, you know, that's sort of like Nazi past as well, you know, that comely maidens going around and their beautiful linens and, you know, Yates during his poetry at the at the crossroads. Yeah. It wasn't a very peasant Ireland, which most of Ireland was. It was actually a very kind of Anglo-Ireland, not exclusively, but certainly it was, it was nationalist. but in a very romanticised sort of metropolitan vision

of the landscape and the rural people. Very bourgeois kind of. Very bourgeois, very touristy. Yeah, okay. But it has endured slightly I think there's kind of an idea behind that and it was

kind of trying to extricate Ireland from that kind of imperial influence but potentially the next part of our story can tell us a little bit more. Now a week before Bunworth passed, his herdsman and Mr. Kavana had been sent to the nearby town of Mallow to collect an elixir that might benefit

Bunworth's health. It was 11pm before he returned, as it was nearly a seven-hour round trip on foot. When he reached the house, despite the hour, a troubled Mr. Kavana gave the medicine to the Reverend Bunworth's daughter. Without warning, he grabbed her by the arm and in floods of tears blurted out, the master miss he is going from us. Miss Bunworth was taken aback and assumed the herdsmen had been drinking, but he insisted, Miss, he is going from us, surely we will lose him, the master we will lose him. The banshee has come for him, Miss, and is not I alone who have hurt her. Kavana recounted how an old woman with long silver hair and a cloak as black as night had followed him part of the way home.

As she stalked him, she keened and screeched, and even called Charles Bunworth by name. Miss Bunworth dismissed Kavana's hysterics as superstition. Kavana, however, was in no doubt about what would follow. The Banshee here, Anthony, is associated with a kind of lament that the sound that she makes is the indication that someone's going to die. Is there a connection maybe with mourning more generally and the traditions in Ireland around death? that the banshee is maybe part of that history.

Yeah, absolutely. I think the idea of Keening or a Keening woman goes back to the 8th century in Ireland, I believe. Shavon, how would you describe a Keening woman or a kindthorak, I think, is the Irish? How would you describe a sound? They're professional mourners. I think they were used up until quite recently.

You'd have professional mourners who would come and fling themselves on the coffin and, you know, tear out their hair and be absolutely bereft. Better drama. We love better drama. There's also like a genre of poetry which is called the Queenie,

which is a lament. And it became very much a, it's a very important style of poetry. The famous one is Queen Arte Leera and it's very much a, it's almost a threat as well, know you killed my husband, this is what's going to happen next and oh, how I loved him kind of thing. So yeah, the Keene. Have you ever heard one? I haven't. Not in real life. I've never been out of funeral where I've heard a Keen. No, I haven't. No. I think by the kind of middle of

the 20th century it had gone more or less, but I think it was still happening in certain little pockets in like Gwale-tucked areas, which are mostly Irish-speaking areas in Ireland. But I've never actually heard it. So Keening means crying, right? Like that's so it's wailing. It's a wailing. It's a wailing. No words necessarily. No, just sort of, you know, Shano's singing as well

would have a lot of queeners in it and a lot of wailing in it. Long-sustained notes. Yeah, I was going to say, is there like a form to it? Is there a, it's obviously performative, but is there... I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I think probably my instinct tells me that the women who did it knew the form

that seems to me would be probably would be likely would you say it's part of a sort of oral tradition then that's handed down it's not necessarily

something that's formally taught that it's picked up in sort of rural communities maybe yeah it's certainly not like taught in schools or anything but the tradition of women handing down the tradition amongst themselves and amongst family members

that seems to ring true when it comes to that but in terms of like is it a composed thing that people are singing over it's not it's a cry It's a kind of a, it's a more ritual. It's more kind of guttural than that, isn't it?

Just to kind of, but as Chavonne said, there is, there is laments and there is kind of elements of the, the Quintoric that has words as well. Like, it can translate into song, but they're not what the banshee is associated with. That's taking that to another kind of level again. My next question really is about the ban she's approach to death. Does she approach different deaths differently? Because she foretells of death, it's up to you then what you do with that. So, you know, there's this idea of the good death.

Okay. And so it's then whether or not you're going to fight it and kind of rail against. against it, which, by the way, the banshee has said this is going to happen, so it's inevitable. It is going to happen. So you can't outsmarter. You can't escape her. I don't think so. As far as I'm aware, it will follow you. Okay. Yeah. Or you can choose to have a good death.

It can kind of soften the blow. You can prepare. I mean, here Bunworth is being given the heads up. The heads up. If they decide to listen to it, which you know, the daughter is saying she's not really going to. But I also think, because we were talking about the kind of Gaelic revival in the

19th century earlier. But there's something here where it's the servant who comes back the Irish man of the land not the Church of Ireland family he comes back and he says I have heard the banshee and it's relating to your family but you haven't heard it

and then the daughter is apparently very doubtful. Do you think there's like does that seem to ring true in terms of what you know of the banshee as we're kind of growing up in Ireland? I don't know but like now I'm thinking of if you had seen me this morning I think anybody would have thought that I was a banshee

wailing and wandering around Did you lose your phone against Chavre? But, you know, you could, you could, you know, I sort of love the idea that any woman of a certain age wandering the roads of the countryside and just sort of going, oh God, it's the band shape, run, run. Just spreading panic across the floor. Somebody up for a bit of divalment.

You know what, there's somebody coming down the road there. Now, here, here, look at, hold my pint, Mikey. That must have happened. That must have happened. It's also, it feeds into that thing of the Irish peasant as something more rudimentary that is clicking into that fairy folklore thing, whereas the sort of the civilised anglicising thing is slightly a bullet. It's sort of making this folkloric tradition palatable in a way that it maybe wouldn't have been a hundred years earlier in the sort of drawing rooms of cities.

You know, it's dressing it up and making it, yeah, seem kind of civilized or like narrativeizing it in some way. It's turning into a story. rather than taking it seriously, I think, in this particular case. Yeah. There's also something about the kind of infantilisation of the Irish peasantry as well, where it's like, oh, look at them there, believing in ghosts and fairies and stuff. And it's, I don't think that's not what they're trying to do, but it's in there nonetheless. The threat of the Banshee isn't taken that seriously.

It's the kind of charming relic of something. Bearing in mind, this was written by the descendant of the Bunworths. So it's written from that kind of position, that middling, upper-middling class position in Ireland at the time. But it is also interesting, I think, if you think about what was to come in Ireland in terms of the Christianisation, well, it was already Christianised, but like the way Catholicism was solidified as a way to run the country essentially by the beginning of the 20th century,

that this kind of was, that Gaelic revival was harking back to something, even though it was romanticised, as you said, Chavon, it was like still harking back to something that was a little bit more Irish. in that sense, or Celtic or like folkloric or something. Didn't last, obviously, because of the Catholic Church, but it's interesting that they were trying to have that conversation potentially around that time. At what point does a funny, cute, comforting superstition

that your grandmother may have said to you when you were at her knee and feeling very cozy and loved and warm, when does that become slightly manipulated and monetized and patronised? by different people do you know what I mean and I think that's what when does it become Darby O'Gill and the little people

or the play we did or the play we did yeah you know when when does it when does when is Irishness commodified commodified and used against the Irish

and you can see that's starting to happen in this case I don't know but it's a very you not only have the event supposedly happening when 1772 1772 but this has been recalled how many generations

two generations later so we have two things going on yeah yeah the event that has happened but being filtered through several generations after that and being listened to now with all the stuff that has happened subsequently I don't know there's bearing in mind and that's a really good point

because since the supposed well not that he did die in 1772 so since that we have 1798 we have 1798 we have the revolutions throughout Europe we have things are beginning to shift empires are beginning to fall monarchs are beginning to make way for more kind of palatable republican places in France and Ireland was trying to do that too yeah and failed yeah so that's the context of the middle piece of that story yeah where Bunworth actually dies and then his great great grandson yeah and the question

of what island will look like in the future is sort of absolutely paramount in this time that it's looking to the past but also in a really serious way starting to consider what Ireland looks like under Britain, without Britain on the world stage. No, for sure.

I think that's really, really interesting because I think with, and I obviously only talk about the Republic independence there, but when we got rid of the Brits, you know, we didn't have as far as I'm aware something to take its place

we left a vacuum and we know what filled us the church and the church filled it but it was like my favourite my favourite sort of story about the New Republic

and the pragmatism and hope of the New Republic is just it delights me for some strange reason I went to school in Cork City and up Patrick's Hill there was

I don't know if it's still there, but there was a post box like you'd have here, literally like you'd have here, a RV, but painted green. So when the infrastructure of the, with the civil service left, the architecture was still there. So just painted a green. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Slav a bit of green on that there now and maybe ground.

Wonderful. You know, literally greenwashing, but also there's something very pragmatic and very sort of, I find it I'm like that's a sensible decision you know

And also they didn't have any money but yes like I get it No for sure but it also speaks to me of like you know there's quite a few stories

of like when we got rid of the Brits we didn't know what to do yeah so he sort of took over the infrastructure of the colonial

power had left behind completely we only knew colonial civil service bureaucracy So what do you do when that goes? You sort of go, well, what were we before them then? Yeah.

And what position does the traditional folklore of the land? What position does that hold when it's been pushed to the periphery in that structure? Getting it back and interweaving it into the culture again. Absolutely. It becomes not only an act of rebellion and act of defiance. It becomes a sort of an education as well. It's like, oh, this must be who we are then because it's not them. Yeah.

By virtue of it not being English, it must be Irish kind of thing. And there's sort of then this uneasy, I think, relationship with, like, with folklore and with mythology. Well, I don't think it lasted, you know, now that you're saying that, like, once the Catholic Church really did come in, we lost it again slightly. It was just another, because it didn't fit in with Catholicism. It didn't fit in with... Well, it didn't fit into the sort of patriarchal structure of Catholicism, which is all a Catholicism. I agree. But what I mean is like it was specifically

to sort of root out women wandering the streets. Yeah, yeah, yeah, women, yeah. Which famously, the Catholic Church does not enjoy. No, no, no. Shall we see what happens in the last section of this? Cannot wait. Go on there now. As the week progressed,

despite Miss Bunworth's hopes, her father's health deteriorated. Bunworth had asked to be moved to the parlour downstairs, which would, apparently, make it easier for his two daughters to care for him. It would also give him better views across the countryside where he had grown up. Word had spread through the community that Kavana had claimed to have had an encounter with the banshee, which foretold Bunworth's death. Despite this, they visited the Bunworth's, as was customary when a member of the family was at death's door,

and stayed with them long into each night. on the final night the locals gathered once more as they sat and chatted in the kitchen reminiscing about the minister's life as he prepared to leave it suddenly they looked gravely at one another as they heard an almost indiscernible female moan

from outside the kitchen window an elderly woman attending Bunworth in the parlour came rushing into the other locals and confirmed that she too had heard it it grew louder then the old lady was convinced the banshee was close. Two men ran outside to catch what they presumed was a very human culprit in the act.

After circling the grounds, they found the night as still as the coffin and returned to the house. As they stood in the doorway, the local people looked back at them ashen. Nothing to be found, the men reported, all quiet outside. It was a great surprise to them then, when the folk gathered inside, told them that rather than silence that they had encountered outside, they had endured ever more dramatic moaning, keening, screeching, and banging inside the house. Unsure what to make of these conflicting stories, the two men closed the door behind them and re-entered the kitchen. As the door clicked on the latch, the incessant keening started once more.

This went on until the first slices of light cut across the darkened horizon. Then the keening stopped and all was still. At that moment, his great-great-grandson tells us Charles Bunworth succumbed to his illness and departed this world with quiet resolve. What an awful way to go. like roaring and wailing and keening and screeching. Not ideal, like.

No, it's a really fearful... Well, now he wasn't roaring and wailing and... No, the banshee, but the idea of the banshee it just seems so, you know, for a nation that purports to be so good with death and knows how to grieve and knows how to... Yeah, so that's what really struck me at the end of the story is in this country in England, we have a very... really sanitised relationship with death actually and you know people don't often die at home and

I know that that is still quite different in Ireland generally and to me the banshee the fact that she's outside the house then she's inside the house she's upsetting the peace and the quiet and the calm and sort of the sacredness of this moment of someone dying there is there is a difficulty I think in having death in the house it's maybe more common in the what is in the context of the or the late 18th century being written about in the 19th century but it's not an easy thing it's uneasy and the band

she maybe sort of represents some of that uneasiness she's sort of violating the home and this peaceful time it's interesting having been in a house where somebody is due to die it very much feels like that actually

without the screaming oh sometimes there can be a bit of screaming I can be screaming and keening and whatever somebody could be upset naturally yeah I just sort of saying that there's something so punitive about it and something so you did wrong and this is the price

you've tried to avoid the inevitable price which is death and that doesn't seem to be involved with this story at all I mean his only crime as far as I can figure out in 17 blahdi blah is that he happens to be a minister so therefore but you see this is the thing I don't think this particular one is this particular story I mean

is a vengeful kind of thing yeah because we grow up with the going you want to avoid that. Yeah, you want to avoid it. It's like, you know, be good or, you know, all these sorts of things. It's more punitive. And like the idea of, I mean, you know,

I'm going to harken a guess that there are no such things as banshees. But the idea of, you know, minding your father in the front room as he looks out. Yeah. And through his very, very final couple of hours and having this wailing and horribleness and screeching, I'm not sure what this story is then, apart from, Oh, I have an example from my family history, Laura, that we had a banshee. Do you know what my instinct on that is? The great-great-grandson is claiming Irishness.

Ah. I think that's all it is, in that they come to us. The banshee comes to us. And despite our kind of anglo-ness. Her appearance authenticates his Irishness. Don't you think as well, though, there's such a tension between him being a minister that he's a man of the church and that he's coming up against a figure from a completely, well, a supposedly

completely different belief system. They are obviously interlinked in complicated ways. But there's a kind of attention there, a sort of contrast, maybe. Maybe, yeah. Like the idea of that particular faith not being, or value

system or faith system not being Irish, maybe, not being... Yeah, and that she's the sort of the epitome of Irishness in that way. Or is it that this brilliant man is dying, this brilliant man with lovely Irish spoken

with a great he was a harpest as well and a harpest so like already elevated historically bardic tradition etc that his demise could only bring

the banshee who would wail and keen and weep for this great man's passing that it's actually he's earned yeah that there's some sort of preemptive heralding towards bringing him to death.

Yeah. Yeah. Love that. Love that for him. Love that for him. No, but it is. Honestly, good for him. Come here to me.

Did you, I won't ask you, Maddie, because I don't think this will have happened to you, but had you ever any kind of family, encountery, personal, banshee story type things when you were growing up or no? No, but I would think that I would hear her, and especially around Halloween. You would think that there was a threat that that was going to happen?

Completely. And there would be the exact say, like I'd be trying to put my fingers in my ears for fear. See, I'm not, I wasn't losing the run of myself then. Well, I think, I think growing up in Ireland in the 80s, we were all losing the run of ourselves. I also used to go down the corridor of the house if I was the last one going to bed. And I would be muttering Hail Mary's under my breath. For fear, the Virgin Mary would come as an apparition. I'd be like, please Virgin Mary, do not come to me tonight.

I used to say that about dead people. I'd be like, don't talk to me tonight. I can't cope with that tonight. I cannot be dealing with you. Rescheduled it. Because I knew to what happened. We never talked about this before. Really?

But I used to the exact same thing, not tonight. Not tonight, Margaret. I always am in awe of like young kids who sort of when they're told, when they were in any form of religion that they wear it lightly. I'm like, how do you know? Like, why aren't you believing it? Who whispered in your ear that you don't really have to take it that seriously? Yeah, yeah.

It's like, just basically turn up at Christmas or grand. Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, why wouldn't you go in hell for leather? Why wouldn't if you're told about the banshees go, well, I mean, it makes as much sense as anything else. My nephew thinks that Jesus is one of the Avengers. Like, he doesn't know that that's a... What would that outfit look like? I don't know.

No, he's not one of those. And he's like, oh, okay. Right? Wearing it so lightly. But like even with fairy forts and all, you know. Oh, yeah. Jesus, you wouldn't go to, you have fairy forts here, yeah. Not the same way.

I know in Ireland, you know, we hear the famous anecdotes of roads being rerouted because fairy trees don't want to be disturbed and that kind of thing, right? Is that what you're talking about? Yeah, yeah. That doesn't happen here. I think, so in English folklore, I think fairies are absolutely a thing. They're present in the landscape, but they're not taken as. seriously or they're not seen as tangible

in the same way. They're not in Ireland either but at the same time you wouldn't take the risk you know that kind of way. I know but I feel very uncomfortable here. Like being in a room full of England. Like I genuinely do because we just Anthony we come across like... I know that's what I'm saying that's why I was rowing back

I was like well we do take it seriously but we don't take it seriously at the same time. But like because there's such it's used it has been used as a reason to not take us seriously. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So any discussion of superstition or supernatural or folklore, it's fueled, it's potent. You can't, you can't, it's potent.

Because you can't, you can't separate, I can't separate it from this inheritance of feeling infantilized. And especially, you know, when you move over here or like all the things you have to combat when you move over here. And then, you know, it's like, yeah, but we can't. Yeah, I know. Don't give them that. these are all just tales they're interesting tales even to discuss the sort of metaphor

of them the usefulness of talismans or something stories as objects to explore something else I still feel a little bit like yeah but we're not tick we're not we're very rational but it feeds into the saints and scholars thing right in that

mind you she says we're still we were very rational as we bargain with the Virgin Mary not to appear to us when we're children. But that's the kind of dichotomy of it, I suppose. But it's that saints and scholars thing, right? It's that storytelling. What we're not wary of is our storytelling. No.

And our narrative building and our community building through story and our inheritance through story and narrative. And I think maybe this is a decent place to wrap it up, but I think that's probably where the banshee lives. I think so. And there's something that suits both parties in this when it's a grey area

because the storyteller can use it for their own need and the listener can use it for what they need to think of the storyteller you know, it can be dismissed or you can swear that you're telling the truth and still, you know, wink to the next person. That wink is very important.

And I think that's, that grey area is where a lot of relationships with Ireland and the Irish at this time sort of lives. We'll let you have this, but we're not really telling you the other stuff. The other stuff.

Yeah. Does that make sense? Yeah, it does make sense. But the banshee is, if nothing else, is a really cool image and a frightening sound. Yeah.

And she's one that follows Irish people around the world, right? That's right. When people emigrate, she goes with them. Very much in America. Yeah, very much in America. Lots of stories of her following them to America.

So, you know, we like to travel we do well I think we've probably run out of time but Chavonne thank you so much for this amazing discussion and for bringing your BAFTA along with you today vital thank you for inviting us both I've had a really really nice chat really nice chat thank you so much for listening to after dark myths misdeeds and the paranormal you can follow us wherever you get your podcasts and if you want to leave a review that's always appreciated, would you say, Anthony? Only if it's good.

Yeah, obviously, only if it's good. Do not bother if it's bad. Thank you very much. We will see you next episode.