After Dark: Myths, Misdeeds & the Paranormal - Banshees: Ireland's Harbinger of Death

Episode Date: October 19, 2023

Today Siobhán McSweeney (Derry Girls) joins Anthony Delaney and Maddy Pelling for the story of the Banshee. In Irish folklore the Banshee heralds the death of a family member, usually by shrieking, or keening. Anthony tells us a story about one dying man - Charles Bunworth d.1772 - who was called to his death by a Banshee's wailing cries.Written by Anthony Delaney.Edited by Tom Delargy.Senior Producer is Charlotte Long.Written by Anthony Delaney.Edited by Tom Delargy.Senior Producer is Charlotte Long.Discover the past on History Hit with ad-free original podcasts and documentaries released weekly presented by world renowned historians like Kate Lister, Dan Snow, Suzannah Lipscomb, Lucy Worsley, Mary Beard and more.Get 50% off your first 3 months with code AFTERDARK. Download the app on your smart TV or in the app store or sign up at historyhit.com/subscribe.You can take part in our listener survey here.

Hi there, it's Maddy. I'm just jumping in to let you know that this episode contains some sensitive content, so if that's not for you, check out our back catalogue of amazing episodes and if you're sticking with us, enjoy. Cork, Ireland, 14 September 1772. Charles Bunworth is dead. Bunworth was a beloved Church of Ireland rector and harpist who had long helped join religious divides in the town of Brigoghe and beyond. He was affectionately referred to as the Minister. and beyond. He was affectionately referred to as the Minister. A fluent Irish speaker and the descendant of the Irish patriot John Philpot Curran, in life Bunworth had been well versed

in the traditions and folklore of Ireland. His death, however, had not come as a surprise to some. The supposed circumstances surrounding Bunworth's death were documented by his great-great-grandson, Thomas Crofter Croker, in Fairy Legends and Traditions of the South of Ireland in 1825. In it, Crofton Croker assures his readers that, quote, There are still living credible witnesses who can declare the authenticity of what follows, and who can be produced to attest most, if not all, of the following particulars. But what were those particulars? What was so notable about Bunworth's death? Well,

according to his great-great-grandson, his passing had been foretold by a haggard old lady, sitting under a tree near his house almost a week before he died. There was no doubt in the minds of the people of Begog that they had been visited by none other than the banshee herself. welcome to after dark myths misdeedsanormal, we have a really incredible episode today. And I'm going to let Anthony introduce our guest because she is a very good friend of his. Anthony? Yes, we have a special guest in the studio today, an expert in all things history. And that is the one and only Siobhan McSweeney. And I could, listen, I could wax lyrical about

Siobhan's recent BAFTA win or her hosting credentials on Great Pottery Throwdown or her iconic role as Sister Michael on Derry Girls. But to me, Siobhan McSweeney will always be the actress who played my oldest sister in a play that we do not talk about anymore, about 10 or so years ago, probably more than 10 years now. probably more than 10 years now. But since then, we've entertained each other with day trips to period properties and gone on country walks and talked the hind legs of each other and put the world to rights several times over copious glasses of champagne. She is, listeners, part of the family, and we are delighted to welcome her to After Dark today. Welcome, Siobhan.

Yay! Hello! Hello, Jill. You know, lovely to be here in person. When we tried to do this via Zoom, it was a lot easier to listen to that introduction. Now I'm just blushing and feeling very awkward. You say that, but actually that was all contrived by you, so you got to hear it twice. Yeah, I know.

It was just like, what the hell? Aha, foiled again. There were some nice things there. I might like to hear those again. We're also recording this several times. Oh, whoops. Take it from the top. Just go from the introduction again. Do that one.

What did you say about me? And was it about the BAFTA when you were most impressed or least impressed? Well, actually, the bit I was least impressed with was the older sister. You were my older sister. Only in matters of age. Well, that's how we count these things. It's kind of one of the key elements to how that panned out. But we don't, again, we don't talk about it.

We don't talk about it. We don't. We had a, Maddy, we had a a it was my first ever play after drama school we went to the same drama school but not at the same time because Siobhan is older than I am

now now yeah it was funny wasn't it no no no there was nothing funny about it it was a very mediocre

fringe show which I think is sort of a rite of passage for every struggling actor at the start of their career or me several years into my career. And look at you now, BAFTAs galore.

I can't move for the BAFTAs in this room right now. I'm sorry for bringing it with me. It's in your bag as well. So in the opening section of the narrative, we have Bunworth dying in 1772. So in Ireland, we have a monarch who is the British monarch on the throne. It's George III. We are seeing a lot of unrest around Europe and in America, which will inevitably lead to revolutions there. There is then a rising of the United Irishmen in in ireland in 1798 which ultimately fails but this is the

kind of world in which bunworth has been living in which he dies and in which then goes on to inform ireland in the 19th century which sees the beginning of the gaelic revival um there are kind of bog bodies being discovered and being dug up and it's there's this kind of reconnection to what Irishness means in the context of the British Empire. So the Banshee fits into these kind of stories in its own unique way. And Maddy, I'm just wondering, what do you know about Banshees from your perspective, having come from outside Ireland? To me, a Banshee is a little bit like a mermaid, maybe. I have been reliably informed that is not the case and that they are not necessarily coastal.

I also know that they're, I want to say specifically an Irish thing. It's something I'm guessing the pair of you grew up with in a way that I didn't in England. Is that fair? What do you think, Siobhan? Well, the way, I mean, it's a really good question whether it's uniquely Irish. Banshee basically, you know, is Gaelic for a fairy woman.

Ban woman she of the fairies. So I don't know. Maybe it's in Scotland as well. Yeah. Do you know, I think it is kind of uniquely Irish and that it's linked directly to the families. Well, it's linked directly to the families and we'll get to that in just a second. But it's the Tu to the families and we'll get to that in just a second. But it's the Tuatha Dé Danann and if you don't know

what the Tuatha Dé Danann is, it's basically this kind of pre-Christian fairy folk that surreptitiously ruled Ireland. It was almost kind of folkloric and religious in its own sense

and it was this kind of army of fairy people basically who were manipulating the climate, who were manipulating all different types of things. And the Banshee comes from that kind of, that mythology. And there was a Lannan Sheard who was the spirit of life.

And then the Banshee was the spirit of death. And so there is this death associated. So I do think it's actually even more specific than Celticism. I think it is Irish because it's linked so specifically to the Tua. Yeah, I mean, my understanding of it is actually not even as a woman, just as a wailing noise. So the sound is really important. Yeah, really, really important.

So you hear her before you see her. You hear her. It's actually, I think, like you almost try to block your ears. So if you don't hear it, it's a way of postponing the inevitable. I did that as a child. Did you? Yeah, because I was on the border of sanity, probably, for 98% of my childhood.

On the border of Kilkenny, I thought. On the border of Kilkenny and Leash, I was. But I do remember being in my bed with the bedclothes pulled up with the fingers in the ears and the things. I'm afraid you'd hear it. Can anyone say anxiety? Yeah. But honestly, I do remember going, no, we're not hearing this. I don't care what's going on.

We're not hearing it. Because she was just around. Like, I think that probably helps if you've got a bit of an imagination. But like, she seemed to be quite present. She did. And I think perhaps uniquely rural. Yeah. Certainly, yeah.

With the wind maybe coming in through drafts or whatever. Yeah. The fact that she would be a woman or a fairy woman, it was only ever the voice that struck terror. I think, and that's interesting, right? Because that's an our generation thing, I think. I think, and that's interesting, right, because that's an our generation thing, I think.

Because in like the 19th century, it was very much a visual as well. Right. So it was a particular type of woman. So the long,

and my great grandmother was alive when I was born and I remember seeing her, and I remember seeing her, God love her, now that there's another Irish person in the room

and suddenly got into all the colloquialisms. But I remember seeing her and she had long silver hair down to beneath her bum. Right. And I remember going, I am not going near that woman. She's obviously... This is a warning of death.

And she did die eventually, God love her. But that's neither here nor there. Did you say your great-great? No, one great. Okay. Maybe I did say great-great, but she was my great-grand... She was fantastic and your great-grand yeah yeah she was a great great grandmother okay so the banshee is part of this fairy alternate world that has sort of tangible

effects on real life to say that alternate world because for the people who believed in the two it wasn't alternate it was very much it was very much intertwined with how they experienced everyday life. So it was it was kind of far more present than we would even think of religion as being now or people who kind of follow certain religious beliefs. But we were talking about like listening out for it. But actually, you'd be wasting your time slightly because the legend went that only certain families could hear her. Okay so talk to me about that.

Well I'll list you some of the families and you can see if you recognise any of these names and if you're listening in with any of these surnames try not to get too freaked out but if you're McCarthy

and McGrath and O'Neill and O'Reilly and O'Sullivan and O'Riordan O'Flaherty's essentially any families that begin with O's

or Mc's are the people that she follows around and during the research for this I found out that the old iteration of my name was

O'Delaney Oh really? Well O'Dufloina in Irish No O'Reilly and because I initially went looking for you

I was like I bet you she's after Siobhan somehow and the Mac Max are in there the Max yeah and O'Neill's that's my my mother's line

so yeah and McCarthy and O'Sullivan I think yeah but what does that say about where you're from though I think it says that

there wasn't a large enough gene pool a large enough gene pool in West Cork for several hundred years but it's interesting right because this story is from Cork yeah and you're from Cork for several hundred years but it's interesting right because this story is from Cork

and you're from Cork and so there's obviously something about that west coast of Ireland for anyone who doesn't know where Cork is it's on the west coast beautiful place

beautiful very large very large county lots of kingships handed out early on as sort of

rewards for things so you have a lot of stuff you know the O'Neills even the Maximinis all came down from the north and sort of rewards for things. So you have a lot of, so for, you know, the O'Neills, even the Maxwinies all came down from the north and sort of,

here, have this. Big chieftain land as well. Kingdom of the Monster. So not only the identities of families are so important, but the fate of what's happening to them, right? And if they are doomed to die

in some way, the Banshee's altering the fate of the land, of the people in charge, that she's kind of tied to the story of the place and the people that she's kind of tied to the story of the place and the people in a way? Definitely tied to the story of the place, I think,

in that talking about that kind of fairy integrated into the landscape thing. Do you know this, I mean, you know, thank God for the edit button. We'll be able to edit this if we need to. But Maddy, we were talking about Stoke there and you said that you that's where you come from and i'm staying there at the moment while i'm filming where i'm filming is in

but where i'm staying is in a village called oakmore which has the oak the chained oak yes yes the famous chained oak that people might know from alton towers actually um but yeah yeah but it's really reminding me it it feels very pertinent to what we're talking about, actually, about trying to withhold the curse or sort of defend against the banshee. Yeah, I think so. And I think, you know, we're talking about the banshee being specifically Irish. But, of course, England has its own folkloric traditions and also traditions that are more universal. folkloric traditions and also more traditions that are more universal and I think there's something about the history of place and the landscape and a kind of wildness that I guess

brings out an anxiety in people a feeling of unease maybe and it's exactly the same so for anyone who doesn't know in Staffordshire there's this really ancient huge oak tree that has I think already decades if not centuries old chains holding some of the branches in place and there's a folklore story of the family who owned the land i think they deny help to an old woman on the road and she says when the branches fall from the tree members of your family will die and that starts to happen and so the guy who owns the tree starts to chain it up and i think there's so much there about, yeah, sort of family. Also preservation of land, I think.

Absolutely. And of status and of title. And old women foretelling death. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Whatever kind of border they're supposed to be inhabiting between life and death, they're able to kind of bring that forth. There's kind of a magic in it almost that they're able to. Yeah, totally, totally. Kind of inhabit. Well, it's sort of a magic in it almost that they're able to Yeah, totally, totally.

kind of inhabit. Well, it's sort of that Jungian archetype, isn't it? The sort of hack. Oh, she's off now. Yeah. Jung, you know. No, but there is something about these collective images we have

in most cultures where like the idea of the hag woman or the older woman that being profoundly mysterious and profoundly scary and being a direct enemy to patriarchal lines yes exactly she's a threat to your your familial status i guess yeah yeah yeah yeah so let's get to bumworth specifically anthony in your in your narrative you talk about charles bumworth who dies in 1772. So why is the Banshee associated with him specifically? And why is it sort of after he's died that this story is attached to him?

I think the answer for that might lie in fiction, really. What you'll find in kind of later 19th century Ireland when this story starts to gain momentum, it was written initially in the early 19th century, but the momentum g initially in the early 19th century, but the momentum gathers in the later 19th century. There is this kind of Gaelic revival happening in Ireland. And often with kind of middle and upper classes, even that would have been more associated with landholding and land ownership.

But what they're trying to do, and it's interesting because you've just spoken about this in terms of the Banshee and other folklore things, but it's connecting back to the land. And they're trying to reconnect going actually whose land is this? What is the culture of this country?

And so there's this kind of revival in 19th century A revival and reinvention 100% reinvention yeah it's not a real reflection of what it was

No, no, no it's quite almost this you know that sort of like Nazi past as well. You know, those comely maidens going around in their beautiful linens and, you know, Yeats doing his poetry at the crossroads. Yeah, it wasn't a very peasant Ireland, which most of Ireland was. It was actually a very kind of Anglo-Ireland, not exclusively, but certainly it was nationalism, but in a very romanticised kind of way.

Sort of metropolitan vision of the landscape and the rural people. Yeah, very bourgeois kind of. Very bourgeois, very touristy. Yeah. Okay. But it has endured slightly. I think there's kind of an idea behind that. And it was kind of trying to extricate Ireland from that kind of imperial influence.

But potentially the next part of our story can tell us a little bit more. Now, a week before Bunworth passed, his herdsman, a Mr. Kavanagh, had been sent to the nearby town of Mallow to collect an elixir that might benefit Bunworth's health. It was 11pm before he returned,

as it was nearly a seven-hour round trip on foot. When he reached the house, despite the hour, a troubled Mr Cavanagh gave the medicine to the Reverend Bunworth's daughter. Without warning, he grabbed her by the arm and in floods of tears blurted out, The Master, Miss, he is going from us. Miss Bunworth was taken aback and

assumed the herdsmen had been drinking, but he insisted, miss, he is going from us, surely we will lose him, the master, we will lose him. The banshee has come for him, miss, and it is not I alone who have hurt her. Kavanagh recounted how an old woman with long silver hair and a cloak as black as night had followed him part of the way home. As she stalked him, she keened and screeched and even called Charles Bunworth by name. Miss Bunworth dismissed Kavanagh's hysterics as superstition. Kavanagh, however, was in no doubt about what would follow. The banshee here, Antony, is associated with a kind of lament that the sound that she makes is the indication that someone's going to die is is there a connection maybe with

mourning more generally and and the the traditions in ireland around death that the banshee is maybe part of that history. Yeah, absolutely. I think the idea of keening or a keening woman goes back to the 8th century in Ireland, I believe. Siobhan, how would you describe a keening woman or a caithóiracht, I think, is the Irish? How would you describe a sand? They're professional mourners. I think they were used up until quite recently. You'd have professional mourners who would come and

fling themselves on the coffin and tear out their hair and be absolutely bereft. Better drama. We love better drama. There's also a genre of poetry which is called the Cuine, which is a lament.

And it became very much a it's a very important style of poetry. The famous one is Cuine Arti Lire, and it's very much a, it's almost a threat as well, you know, you killed my husband, this is what's going to happen

next, and oh how i loved him kind of thing so yeah the the keen have you ever heard one i haven't not not in real i've never been at a funeral where i've heard a keen no i haven't no i think by the kind of middle of the 20th century it had gone more or less but i think it was still happening in certain little pockets in like grail tucked areas which are mostly Irish speaking areas in Ireland but I've never actually heard it so keening

means crying right? Yes so it's wailing it's a wailing it's a wailing no words necessarily no just sort of you know

Shanno singing as well would have a lot of queeners in it and a lot of wailing in it long sustained notes yeah I was going to say is there like a form to it is there a it's obviously performative but is there I don't know have a lot of queeners in it and a lot of wailing in it um long sustained notes yeah yeah i was gonna say is there like a form to it is there a it's obviously performative but is there i don't know i don't know i don't know i think probably my instinct tells me that the women who did it

knew the form that seems to me would be probably would be likely would you say it's part of a sort of oral tradition then that's handed down? It's not necessarily something that's formally taught, that it's picked up in sort of rural communities maybe? Yeah, it's certainly not like taught in schools or anything. But the tradition of women handing down, the tradition amongst themselves and amongst family members, that seems to ring true when it comes to that. But in terms of like, is it a composed thing that people are singing over like it's not it's a cry it's a kind of a it's a more ritual it's more

kind of guttural than that isn't it just to kind of but as Siobhan said there is there is laments and there is kind of elements of

the Queen Torek that has words as well like it can translate into song but they're not what the banshee is associated with

that's taking that to another kind of level again. Thank you. I'm joined by a host of experts to tell the stories of the six queens of Henry VIII, who shaped and changed England forever. Subscribe to and follow Not Just the Tudors from History Hit, wherever you get your podcasts. my next question really is about the banshee's approach to death does she approach different deaths differently because she foretells of death it's up to you then what you do with that so you know there's this idea of the

good death okay and so it's then whether or not you're going to fight it and kind of rail against it which by the way the banshee has said this is going to happen so it's inevitable it is going to happen so you can't outsmart her you can't escape her i don't think so as far as i'm aware it will follow you okay yeah or you can choose to have a good death. It can kind of soften the blow. You can prepare. I mean, here, Bunworth is being given the heads up if they decide to listen to it, which, you know, the Irish man of the land, not the Church of Ireland family. He comes back and he says, I have heard the banshee and it's relating to your family, but you haven't heard it.

And then the daughter is apparently very doubtful. Do you think there's like, does that seem to ring true in terms of what you know of the banshee as we're kind of growing up in Ireland? I don't know,

but like now I'm thinking of if you had seen me this morning I think anybody would have thought that I was a banshee wailing and wandering around did you lose your

phone again Siobhan but you know you could you could you know sort of love the idea that any woman of a certain age

wandering the roads of the countryside and just sort of going oh god it's the band shape run

run or like just spreading panic across the floor somebody up for a bit of devilment you know what there's somebody

coming down the road there now here here look at hold my pint Mikey that must have happened that must have happened

it's also it feeds into that thing of the Irish peasant as something more rudimentary that is kicking into that fairy folklore thing, whereas the kind of the civilised anglicising thing is slightly bullet. It's sort of making this folkloric tradition palatable

in a way that it maybe wouldn't have been 100 years earlier in the sort of drawing rooms of cities. You know, it's dressing it up and making it, yeah, seem kind of civilized or like narrativizing it in some way it's turning into into a story rather than taking it seriously i think in in this in this particular case yeah there's also something about the kind of infantilization of the irish irish peasantry as well where it's like oh look them they're believing in ghosts and fairies and stuff.

And it's, I don't think that's not what they're trying to do, but it's in there nonetheless. The threat of the banshee isn't taken that seriously. It's the kind of charming relic of something. Bearing in mind, this was written by the descendant of the Bunworths. So it's written from that kind of position, that middling, upper middling class position in Ireland at the time. that kind of position, that middling, upper middling class position in Ireland at the time.

But it is also interesting, I think, if you think about what was to come in Ireland in terms of the Christianisation, well, it was already Christianised, but like the way Catholicism was solidified as a way to run the country,

essentially, by the beginning of the 20th century, that this kind of was, that Gaelic revival was harking back to something, even though it was romanticised, as you said, Siobhan, it was like still harking back to something, even though it was romanticised, as you said, Siobhan, it was like still harking back to something

that was a little bit more Irish in that sense or Celtic or like folkloric or something. Didn't last, obviously, because of the Catholic Church, but it's interesting that there was, they were trying to have that conversation potentially around that time. At what point does a funny, cute, comforting superstition that your grandmother may have said to you when you were at her knee and feeling very cosy and loved and warm. When does that become slightly manipulated and monetised and patronised by different people?

Do you know what I mean? And I think that's what. When does it become Darby O'Gill and the Little People? Or the play we did ten years ago. Yeah you know when does it When is Irishness commodified? Commodified and used

against the Irish And you can see that starting to happen in this case? I don't know but it's a very, you not only have the event supposedly happening when? 17? 1772.

1772. But this has been recalled how many generations? Two generations later. So we have two things going on. Yeah, yeah. The event that has happened but been filtered

through several generations after that and been listened to now with all the stuff that has happened subsequently. I don't know, there's... Bearing in mind, and that's a really good point because since the supposed, well, not that he did die in 1772,

so since that, we have 1798, we have the revolutions throughout Europe, we have things are beginning to shift, empires are beginning to fall, monarchs are beginning to make way for more kind of palatable Republican places in France. And Ireland was trying to do that too. Yeah. And failed.

Yeah. So that's the context of the middle piece of that story. Yeah. Where Bunworth actually dies and then his great great grandson. Yeah. And the question of what Ireland will look like in the future is sort of absolutely paramount in this time that it's looking to the past but also in a really serious way starting to consider what Ireland looks like under Britain without Britain on the world stage yeah and no

for sure I think that's really, really interesting because I think with, and I obviously only talk about the Republic independence there, but when we got rid of the Brits, you know, we didn't have, as far as I'm aware, something to take its place. We left a vacuum.

Well, and we know what filled it. The church. And the church filled it. But it was like my favourite, my favourite sort of story about the New Republic and the pragmatism and hope of the New Republic

is just, it delights me for some strange reason. I went to school in Cork City and up Patrick's Hill, there was, I don't know if it's still there, but there was a post box like you'd have here, literally like you'd have here, a Victor, you know, a RV, but painted green.

So when the infrastructure of the, with the civil service left, the architecture was still there. So they just painted it green. Yeah, just a little bit of green on that there now. Wonderful. You know, literally greenwashing. But also there's something very pragmatic and very sort of, I find it,

I'm like, that's a sensible decision. You know? And also they didn't have any money, but yes, like I get it. No, for sure. But it also speaks to me of like, you know, there they didn't have any money but yes like I get it no for sure but it also speaks to me of like you know

there's quite a few stories of like when we got rid of the Brits we didn't know what to do yeah so you sort of

took over the infrastructure of the colonial power had left completely we only knew colonial civil service

yeah bureaucracy so what do you do when that goes you don't you sort of go Completely. We only knew colonial civil service bureaucracy. So what do you do when that goes? You sort of go, well, what were we before them then? And what position does the traditional folklore of the land, what position does that hold when it's been pushed to the periphery in that structure, getting it back and interweaving it into the culture again? Absolutely. It becomes not only

an act of rebellion an act of defiance it becomes a sort of an education as well it's like oh this must be who we are then

because it's not them yeah by virtue of it not being English it must be Irish kind of thing and there's sort of then this

this uneasy I think relationship with like with folklore and with mythology. Well, I don't think it lasted, you know, now that you're saying that.

Once the Catholic Church really did come in, we lost it again slightly. It was just another, because it didn't fit in with Catholicism. It didn't fit in with... Well, it didn't fit into the sort of patriarchal structure of Catholicism, which is all of Catholicism, I agree. But what I mean is like it was

specifically, it was specifically to sort of root out women wandering the streets. Yeah, yeah, yeah, women, yeah, yeah. Which famously the Catholic Church does not enjoy. No, no, no. Shall we see what happens in the last section of this? Cannot wait, go on there now.

As the week progressed, despite Miss Bunworth's hopes, her father's health deteriorated. Bunworth had asked to be moved to the parlour downstairs, which would, apparently, make it easier for his two daughters to care for him. It would also give him better views across the countryside where he had grown up. Word had spread through the community that Kavanagh had claimed to have had an encounter with the banshee, which foretold Bunworth's death. Despite this, they visited the Bunworths, as was customary when a member of the family was at death's door,

and stayed with them long into each night. On the final night, the locals gathered once more. long into each night. On the final night, the locals gathered once more. As they sat and chatted in the kitchen, reminiscing about the minister's life as he prepared to leave it, suddenly they looked gravely at one another as they heard an almost indiscernible female moan from outside the kitchen window. An elderly woman attending Munworth in the parlour came rushing in to the other locals and confirmed that she too had heard it. It grew louder then. The old lady was convinced the banshee was close. Two men ran outside to catch what they presumed was a very human culprit in the act.

After circling the grounds, they found the knight as still as the coffin and returned to the house. As they stood in the doorway, the local people looked back at them ashen. Nothing to be found, the men reported. All quiet outside. It was a great surprise to them then, when the folk gathered inside told them that rather than silence that they had encountered outside, they had endured ever more dramatic moaning, keening, screeching and banging inside the house. Unsure what to make of these conflicting stories, the two men closed the door behind them and re-entered the kitchen.

As the door clicked on the latch, the incessant keening started once more. This went on until the first slices of light cut across the darkened horizon. Then the keening stopped and all was still. At that moment, his great-great-grandson tells us, Charles Bunworth succumbed to his illness and departed this world with quiet resolve. What an awful way to go. Which one? Like roaring and wailing and keening and screeching.

Not ideal, like. No, it's a really fearful. Well, now he wasn't roaring and wailing. No, the banshee. But the idea of the banshee, it just seems so, you know, for a nation that purports to be so good with death and knows how to grieve and knows how to... Yeah, so that's what really struck me at the end of the story is in this country, in England, we have a really sanitized relationship with death, actually. And, you know, people don't often die at home.

And I know that that is still quite different in Ireland, generally. And to me, the banshee, the fact that she's outside the house, then she's inside the house, she's upsetting the peace and the quiet and the calm and sort of the sacredness of this moment of someone dying. There is a difficulty, I think, in having death in the house. It's maybe more common in the what is in the context of the story of the late 18th century being written about in the 19th century. But it's not an easy thing. It's uneasy. And the banshee maybe sort of represents some of that uneasiness.

She's sort of violating the home and this peaceful time. It's interesting. Having been in a house where somebody is due to die, It very much feels like that, actually, without the screaming. Oh, sometimes there can be a bit of screaming. It can be screaming and keening and whatever. Somebody could be upset naturally. Yeah, I just sort of think that there's something so punitive about it and something so you did wrong and this is the price.

You've tried to avoid the inevitable price which is death and that doesn't seem to be involved with this story at all I mean his only crime as far as I can figure out in 17 blah de blah is that he happens to be a minister so therefore But you see this is the thing I don't think this particular one is

this particular story I mean is a vengeful kind of thing yeah because we grow up with it going you want to avoid that. Yeah, you want to avoid it. It's like, you know, be good or, you know, all these sorts of things. It's more punitive. And like the idea of, I mean, you know,

I'm going to hearken a guess that there are no such things as banshees, but the idea of, you know, minding your father in the front room as he looks out. Yeah. And through his very, very final couple of hours and having this wailing and horribleness

and screeching. I'm not sure what this story is then, apart from oh, I have an example from my family history, Laura, that we had a banshee. Do you know what my instinct on that is? The great, great grandson is claiming Irishness.

I think that's all The great, great grandson is claiming Irishness. Ah. I think that's all it is. In that they come to us, the banshee comes to us, and despite our kind of anglowness. Her appearance authenticates his Irishness. Don't you think as well, though, there's such a tension between him being a minister, that he's a man of the church, and that he's coming up against a figure from a completely,

well, a supposedly completely different belief system. They are obviously interlinked in complicated ways. But there's a kind of attention there, a sort of contrast maybe. Maybe. Maybe. Yeah. Like the idea of that particular faith not being or value system or faith system not being Irish maybe? Yeah. And that she's the sort of the epitome of Irishness

in that way. Or is it that this brilliant man is dying? This brilliant man with lovely Irish spoken with a great ancestor. He was a harpist as well. And a harpist

so like already elevated historically, Bardic tradition, etc. That his demise could only bring the banshee who would wail and keen and weep for this great man's passing. Yes. That it's actually...

He's earned it. He's earned, yeah, that there's some sort of preemptive heralding towards bringing him to death. Yeah. Love that. Love that. We'll have that.

Love that for him. Love that for him. No, but it is, honestly, good for him. Yeah, yeah. Come here to me. Did you, I won't ask you, Maddy, because I don't think this will have happened to you, but had you ever any kind of family, encountery, personal, banshee story type things when you were growing up or no? No, but I would think that I would hear her and especially around Halloween.

You would think that there was a threat that that was going to happen? Completely. And there would be the exact say, like I'd be trying to put my fingers in my ears for fear. See, I'm not, I wasn't losing the run of myself. Well, I think growing up in Ireland in the 80s, I wasn't losing the run of myself then Well I think I think growing up in Ireland in the 80s we were all losing the run of ourselves

I also used to go down the corridor of the house if I was the last one going to bed and I would be muttering Hail Marys under my breath

Oh my god for fear the Virgin Mary would come as an apparition I'd be like please Virgin Mary do not come to me tonight

I used to say that about dead people I'd be like don't Mary do not come to me tonight I used to say that about dead people I'd be like don't talk to me tonight I can't cope with it tonight Grandma I cannot be dealing with you Rescheduled it

No I honestly Because I knew it would happen We've never talked about this before No really We haven't spoken about this before But I used to think the exact same thing

not tonight Not tonight Margaret I always am in awe of like young kids who sort of when they're told when they're wearing any form of religion that they wear it lightly. I'm like, how do you know? Like, why aren't you believing it?

Who whispered in your ear that you don't really have to take it that seriously? And it's like, just basically turn up at Christmas, you're grand. I mean, you know, why wouldn't you go in hell for leather? Why wouldn't, if you're told about the Banshees, go, well, I mean, it makes as much sense as anything else.

My nephew thinks that Jesus is one of the Avengers. Like, he doesn't know that that's a... What would that outfit look like? I don't know. I was like, no, he's not one of those.

And he's like, oh, okay. Right? Wearing it so lightly. Yeah. But like, even with fairy forts and all you know but then again

Jesus you wouldn't go you have fairy forts here yeah not in the same way I know in Ireland you know we hear the famous anecdotes of roads being rerouted

because fairy trees don't want to be disturbed and that kind of thing right is that is that what you're talking about yeah yeah that doesn't happen here

I think so in English folklore I think fairies are absolutely a thing. They're present in the landscape, but they're not taken as seriously or they're not seen as tangible in the same way. They're not in Ireland either, but at the same time,

you wouldn't take the risk. You know, that kind of way. I know, but I feel very uncomfortable here. Like being in a room full of... I genuinely do because we just... Anthony, we come across like... I know, that's what I'm saying. That's why I was row... Like, I genuinely do, because we just... Anthony, we come across like... I know, that's what I'm saying. That's why I was rowing back.

I was like, well, we do take it seriously, but we don't take it seriously at the same time. No, but we also... But, like, because there's such... It's used, it has been used

as a reason to not take us seriously. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So any discussion of superstition or supernatural or folklore, it's fueled. It's potent. You can't. You can't. It's potent because you can't.

You can't. I can't separate it from this inheritance of feeling infantilized. And, you know, when you move over here or like all the things you have to combat when you move over here. And then, you know, it's like, yeah, but we can't. Yeah, I know. Don't give them that. These are all just tales. Yes.

They're interesting tales. Like even to discuss the sort of metaphor of them, the usefulness of talismans or something, stories as objects to explore something else. I still feel a little bit like, yeah, but we're not thick. We're very rational. But it feeds into the saints and scholars thing, right? In that, mind you, she says, we're still, we were very rational

as we bargained with the Virgin Mary not to appear to us when we're children. But that's the kind of dichotomy of it, I suppose. But it's that saints and scholars thing, right? It's that storytelling. What we're not wary of is our storytelling.

No. And our narrative building and our community building through story and our inheritance through story and narrative. And I think, maybe this is a

decent place to wrap it up, but I think that's probably where the banshee lives. I think so. And there's something that suits both parties in this when it's a grey area because the storyteller can use it for their own need and the listener can use it for what they need to think of the storyteller. You know, it can be dismissed or you can swear that you're telling the truth and still, you know, wink to the next person. That wink is very important. And I think that grey area is where a lot of relationships

with Ireland and the Irish at this time sort of lives. We'll let you have this, but we're not really telling you the other stuff. The other stuff. Yeah. Does that make sense? Yeah it does make sense. But the Banshee is if nothing else is a really cool image

and a frightening sound. Yeah. And she's one that follows Irish people around the world right? That's right. When people emigrate she goes with them. Very much in America. Lots of stories of her following them to America so you know we like to travel

we do well I think we've probably run out of time but Siobhan thank you so much for this amazing discussion and for bringing your BAFTA along

with you today vital thank you for inviting us both I've had a really really nice chat really nice chat. Really nice chat. Thank you so much for listening to After Dark, Myths, Misdeeds and the Paranormal.

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