After Dark: Myths, Misdeeds & the Paranormal - Could you Survive the Medieval Apocalypse?

Episode Date: November 20, 2025

For Medieval Europe, the Apocalypse wasn’t just a metaphor - it was very real and very imminent.We are talking about the four horsemen, locusts the size of horses, the beast of the abyss, the Whore of Babylon, and, obviously, the anti-christ.We’re going to go through the medieval apocalypse blow-by-blow to see how this obsession with the end led to bizarre real-world cults like the Flagellants, who abandoned all norms for group sex in the woods.Our guest today is Dr Eleanor Janega, co-host of Gone Medieval with Matt Lewis.This episode was edited by Tim Arstall and produced by Stuart Beckwith. The senior producer was Freddy Chick.You can now watch After Dark on Youtube! www.youtube.com/@afterdarkhistoryhitSign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries, with a new release every week and ad-free podcasts. Sign up at https://www.historyhit.com/subscribe.  You can take part in our listener survey here.All music from Epidemic Sounds.After Dark: Myths, Misdeeds & the Paranormal is a History Hit podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

For medieval Europe, the apocalypse wasn't just a metaphor. It was very real and very imminent. We're talking about the four horsemen, locus, the size of horses, the beast of the abyss, the whore of Babylon, and obviously the Antichrist. We're going to go through the medieval apocalypse blow by blow to see how this obsession with the end led to the bizarre real world cults like the flagellant. who abandoned all norms for group sex in the woods. Welcome to After Dark.

The woman straightens, and shading her eyes against the noon glare. The world has gone strange. The light too bright too still. She sees the sun dimmed to blood red, and the sky above crack with a sound like a mountain splitting. From it spills fire. and winged things, vast and shimmering, their cries agonisingly loud. The earth trembles, birds fall dead mid-flight, she hears the church bell clanging wildly

and sees the river running backward. Shit, she thinks. The end is clearly nigh. Hear ye, hear ye, the end is nigh. Well, it was for medieval people anyway, because it was their Christian duty, actually, to talk about and be prepared for the coming apocalypse. It was laid out in the book of Revelation, where the final battle between good and evil takes place, so you had to be prepared for what was coming down the line. Today, we are going through it blow by blow. One monster after another and discussing how these ideas about the end of the world ended up with people flagellating themselves and having group sex in the woods, as Maddie just said.

How very medieval, this was not the Dark Ages. The only conceivable guest for today, of course, is Dr. Eleanor Yanaga. She's here. Ella, of course, is the host of of our sister podcast from History Hit Gone Medieval alongside the brilliant Matt Lewis and she specialises in studying medieval apocalyptic thought. I didn't think I was going to be able to do that in one go now have highlighted it, but it's fine, we did it.

And she was also the star of a wonderful documentary on History Hit TV. Go and subscribe to that now if you're not already doing so that came out last year called Medieval Apocalypse Eleanor. Welcome back to AfterDart. Hello, I live here now. You live here now, you do.

I feel like people really hate when you come on the show I know, you're just the least popular guests we ever. Yeah, you're definitely not one of our most popular guests every single time. It's her again, it's going to be the worst. Yeah, absolutely. I am genuinely so excited to get into this topic because when we do medieval history,

I think we're always a little bit lost, potentially. Sometimes, yeah, depending on what it is. Yeah, just exposing us there live on this podcast. However, I will say this, I was raised Catholic, and so the concepts of apocalypse is fullly that. It's nearer to me than I'm comfortable with, but yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, then that's fair.

Eleanor, tell me this. Were I to walk into a medieval village and walk up to a random person, a medieval peasant, and say, when is the end of the world coming? What are they going to say to me? Soon? And I mean, that's only kind of like, yeah, like, it's only kind of half a joke because every single thing that we see in the gospel, there's a part of the gospel that we often refer to as the little apocalypse

where Jesus talks about the end of the world, right? Just a tiny apocalypse. a little bit, just a little, it's just a little, it's just a little susson, of an apocalypse. Oh, appetizer, yeah. You know, like, for them, this is a really important part of Christianity, and what you have to understand about Christianity is it is a linear religion, right? There's a beginning, that's when God makes the world, you're in the Garden of Eden, there's a middle, which is kind of when Jesus shows up, you know, does his thing, and then there's an end, right? The world is

going to end, the universe is going to end at a point in time, and after that happens, you're going to have the last judgment and everyone's going to go to their ultimate place, either heaven or hell, that's it, right? So it's going to happen. Now, what Jesus says in the little apocalypse is that you don't know the hour that the apocalypse is coming, that you're just supposed to kind of like keep yourself ready because it could happen at any moment. This is stressful. Someone who overthinks everything anyway. I don't need to be told that like this is not specific. It's coming, but like we're not going to tell you when. Tell me when. Yeah. Yeah. Well, Well, you don't get to know.

And the thing, you're just supposed to stay on your toes. And so as a result, obviously, if you're, like, steeped in this particularized milieu, anytime something gets a little bit weird or go slightly wrong, you're like, ah, it's coming. Yeah, exactly. Now, you mentioned a beginning, a middle, and an end. That sounds very storified to me, as if it's very story-led. And we can actually trace this to a book, a specific book, can't we? See what I did there?

I like that, yeah. And that book being the book of Revelation. Talk to me about this one, please. How does Apocalypse present itself in this particular context? Okay, so there is a man, and his name is John of Patmos or St. John the Divine, right? He is often confused with the St. John who writes the Gospel of John, and in the Middle Ages, they do think it's the same guy, it is not the same guy. And John's deal is he goes off to the island of Patmos, which is now in Greece, and Homeboy feels some things. He thinks some things.

You know, like, uncharitably, you could say that. It sounds like somebody's tripping. And so he says that it is revealed to him. And that's what Apocalypse means in Greek. It means, you know, Revelation. Okay. So medieval people are going to call the Book of Revelation the Apocalypse, but now we tend to say Revelation.

There's no S. It's the book of Revelation. I saw that in my notes, and I wanted to say Revelations. I wanted to, but it's not that. It's not because it's just like... It's just the one revelation. Yeah, basically, like... The ultimate revelation.

God was just like, bam, you like that. And John, like, has this particular vision about how everything is going to go down. He writes this out, and everyone is like, real talk, I guess. And they included in with the Bible. Yeah, it's fine. Quite why this makes it into the Bible itself, and it isn't just apocrypha. I cannot tell you. But it's probably just because it's awesome, actually, and it's, like, full of monsters.

So it's really difficult to not like it. It's a page turner. It's actually genuinely worth reading because you're like, what is going on? It's bedazzled. Yeah, exactly. Tell me this, though. People in the medieval world who were Christian kind of wanted this to happen, right? Because we think of the apocalypse as being this, I was supposed to say, apocalyptic thing.

Yeah, in our culture, it's the way that we read it now is, it's a catastrophe, it's a bad thing, it's horrific. And there are going to be lots of monsters that we're going to discuss, and it is pretty horrific. but people actually wanted this to happen to begin. Yeah, I mean, if you have a real sort of understanding of yourself as holy, as actually in alignment with God, the apocalypse isn't going to be such a bad thing for you. You may die, yeah. Like, you might be rent apart by a particular beast or, you know, die in one of several natural disasters. Cool, cool, cool, cool.

But if the apocalypse is actually happening, it means that, like, oh, well, we're kind of getting to the end, right? And it's proof. Yeah, exactly. And when you get to the end, if you are right with God, so there's a couple of things that are going to happen, there's one version of the apocalypse that some people subscribe to, where there's this idea that after the persecutions of the apocalypse, there's going to be what we call a 10,000-year reign of peace. The Last World Emperor is going to come down and everyone's going to have a really nice time, just like and chill for 10,000 years.

So if you survive, you've got something really nice. I feel like to part by last of it, right? Wait, some people are going to survive the apocalypse. Maybe in this particular version. Okay, but then after 10,000 years, God's going to be like, okay, well, everyone had a nice time. We're calling it a day. That was just a good thing, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you know, maybe you believe in the 10,000 year reign of peace.

Maybe you don't. If you don't, you're going straight to the last judgment. And again, if you think that you are good, then that means that you get to go to heaven. And you've got to understand that the way medieval Christians are looking at the world isn't necessarily like you go to heaven right away when you die, unless you're a particularly good person. Like, you know, if a baby dies, yeah, the baby's good. Like, don't worry about that. Like, they're in heaven. But a lot of people, you know, if they messed up, if they were sinful, and, you know, it's pretty easy to be sinful.

You know, ask anyone raised Catholic, they'll let you know. This is now a third. Right. We're going to get it out. You're like, oh, God. But, you know, you are going to end up in purgatory, and you have to understand that purgatory isn't, you know, people think it's like limbo. It's just kind of like, oh, a third space. It's not.

It's hell with a timer. So, like, you're in hell, you're experiencing all the bad things. You're paying your debt, but you're going to get out of it. But you're going to kind of burn off the sins. They're going to be kind of expiated, and then you can go to heaven, right? So if you're kind of like one of those people who was like, ooh, like, you know, your general garden variety is sinful, then the apocalypse is kind of good for you because you're not even going to have to, like, experience hell for very long at all, right? Because, like, we're going to get straight to the last judgment.

So you kind of want it to happen in your own lifetime, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that wouldn't be bad. Now, granted, there are also people who are like, actually the apocalypse is bad, and we don't want it to happen. Right? So, like, when bad things happen, some people are like, seems awful, right? You know, some people who, you know, like, when the Black Death happens and people are like, gosh, this really might be it. There are people who, like, kind of attempt to stop it.

Sometimes when people think that Antichrist has come, what they're attempting to do is, again, stop that. There are people who are like, can we just knock this on the head? But on the whole, if you're a real fanatic, you think it's going to be a. a good deal for you. I'm very into this idea of non-but disbelief. I've said this a million times that there are, you know, we have this idea that everybody believes in the same thing. But there's this idea of disbelief is also really tempting to pursue in terms of this.

But what I want to come to is that idea of if you were a medieval person and this starts to unfold and you're clocking those things going, here we go, what are some of the things, what are some of the first things that we would be seeing? unfold in the world about us that we're going shit, there's the apocalypse. So angels are going to show up and blow some trumpets. Okay, so far I'm not panicking. I'm just like, okay, that's camp.

And so what happens is it's super camp. They show up and they're like, to toot, to, and if you do it like that, it's super come. Yeah, right. And so what they're going to do is they are going to start unsealing, there are several seals. And the seals do bad things. And I mean seal like something that's holding a door closed, not like the cutie little animal.

Oh, I didn't even think that. There were several deals. That would be great, actually. I'd be like, come on, bring the other fun. And so what they first start doing is kind of unleashing natural disasters. That's like one of the big things is going to happen. And so certain things are going to happen like the stars are going to fall out of the sky. The mountains will be ground to dust. The seas are going to come up and they're going to boil off. Sometimes they're going to be made of blood. She's dramatic. I mean, like, I mean, girl, like she's a stunt queen. Yeah. Okay, right? Like, there's a lot of it. So, there are just going to be tons and tons of natural disasters. So basically, any natural disaster that medieval people are aware of, you take that up to the nth degree, and that's going to happen to you. So, you know, plenty of people die in earthquakes during the medieval period, generally, you know, as they still do now. And so they're like, yeah, what if that happened even worse than obviously a bunch of people are going to die? So, like, a lot of cities are going to be decimated as a result of this. So a lot of this is based on things that people have already experienced, right, in terms of natural disasters. But we also have the unleashing of beasts and monsters. don't we? And talk to me about Gog and Magog. Okay. So Gog and Magog. Love them. Homeboys. You know what? These are guys that you will see a lot. Right? So for example, if you are here in London,

you will see like multiple Gog and Magogs around the shop. So Gog and May Gog are a really important architectural motif and especially not just in the medieval period, but in the early modern period, people love to slap a Gog and May Gog on things. So if you see a couple of like burly, sort of like undressed dudes which I often encounter that. But like a lot of times around clocks in places like that then you are looking at Gog and Magog and what they do

is they open the gates and allow nothing something through, right? And so it's like often hordes of some description or another and people will interpret this in all sorts of ways. So for example, when people

are facing the influx of Mongols, people go, Oh, word, like Gog and Megag opened the gates, and these Mongols are through here, and, like, these are the hordes of Satan, and they're attacking us all, right? So oftentimes they are seen as unleashing non-Christian fighters, that's a big one. So, you know, like armies that can kind of roll through. But this can also kind of just be used however you want it to do that thing. So just like there's a couple of homies, they're not wearing shirts and they're going to open a gate.

So whatever you need them to do, that's what they do. But this is also part of the genius of this lore. right. And we'll see this as we go through this. I was really noting this recently. This can be whatever you need it to be, actually. And that's why it endures. Okay, so we've had Gog and Magog. This is the one I'm most familiar with, and I think possibly people will be familiar with the concept of the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse. Talk me through this dramatic. The excitement on Ellen's face. My favorite four people. Yeah, so the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse are also kind of, they're getting unleashed at this point in time. There are some really great art motif examples of this

where they're like jumping out of little hellmouths. Yeah. And I love this. Like sometimes you get a little... Very graphic novel. Yeah, it's so good. Like sometimes the hell mouth has little legs. Oh, yes.

I can exactly picture what you're talking about. They're giving the NASCAR in London. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's very similar, like the black riders heading out. A hundred percent. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so there are, of course, four of them, right? And so you have war, famine.

pestilence and death. Right. Okay. Yeah, yeah. Which is like, you just get to death at the end of it. I'm always kind of like, I feel like it could just go straight to the death. But like it's not, it's not good enough. There's other three things we'll lead to that.

But sometimes pestilence is also called conquest. So it's sort of, and so again, you have like this mutability there. So obviously when the black death is happening in the 14th century, everyone is like, oh, word, this is pestilence. Sure. But when it is something like the Mongols attack. in the 13th century, you can be like, mm, conquest. That's so interesting.

So, like, again, you can just kind of do it however you want it to. Yeah. And obviously, these are, again, things that everyone can agree are really bad. So it's, like, famine. Again, like, I think about the 14th century all the time in these contexts.

My favorite century, hashtag 14th century, best century. So they are experiencing at one point in time the Great Famine, right? So this goes from about, like, a 1315 to 1317. And we have a series of terrible summers in Europe, so all the crops fail, to the point that people can't even keep their animals alive. There are rumors that cannibalism is happening in certain places, like everyone is starving. And when it's happening on such a big scale, you just go, yeah, well, there it is,

right? And then the fact that 30 years later, kind of like hot on the heels, 40 years later, you then get the Black Death. Just ticking them off from the list. It's not that weird, right? At the same time, the Hundred Years War is happening. So it's like, you live in France, you're like, yeah. It's so bad. Yeah. It seems. The signs are there. Yeah. Yeah. You kind of alluded to this already, but one of the other aspects of this is an influx of natural disasters.

And actually, when you were talking about it before, and we can kind of touch on it here, I guess, it's this idea of trying to explain your world, right? And in the medieval world, part of that is going, there is another force punishing us, controlling us, directing us, and in this case, directing us potentially towards the end. Oh, yeah, absolutely. And so, you know, when you have a big natural... natural disaster, it then feeds into this narrative that you are just absolutely steeped in, right? It's difficult for us to sort of get in the same headspace because we have these kind of ideas

of plurality. We have a lot of different religions at our disposal to think about. We haven't necessarily been told this is the only way to think, right? But they are in this particular culture that is just saying, here's the major story. And, you know, we're humans. We like patterns, right? We like to recognize things. And so when something bad happens, it's really easy to say, oh, like, this is just like, I've seen it. You know, it's like that joke that, you know, guy who's only seen one movie, I'm getting a lot of, like, vibes of the same thing.

It's like, so every single thing that is happening is just going to be like that again. So if you have a big earthquake happen, then you just go, ah, you know, apocalypse is happening. And there are a lot of earthquakes, especially in the Mediterranean world, around in the Middle Ages, there are some really, really serious earthquakes that happen.

So you live in Iceland. You know, you're just like around volcanoes all the time. it's really easy to just be like, ah, you know? Yeah, and like, what is it? You know what I mean? They must be thinking. Yeah. What is happening? This is world-altering.

You know, this is cataclysmic. And so you're going to want to explain it as best you can. Oh, yeah, and absolutely. And the way that they are explaining it a lot of the time. So, again, you know, not to keep talking about the black death, but can't stop one's time. Like, when they're trying to explain why the black death is happening, one of the reasons that they've come up with is earthquakes. So there are some big. big earthquakes that had happened in Italy around the time and they say, oh, the earthquake has

opened up a seam in the earth and the miasma has come out of the earth. This is such a medieval obsession, right? It's like things coming out of stuff. There's something bad down there, literally. I mean, is this a belief that hell is literally under a feeling? Yeah, because like hell's down there, right? So if you have the actual earth's crust riven, then stuff can come up from out of there, right? And that to them is like science, right? You know, that this makes sense, it fits in with their worldview, and this is something that you hear really educated people say. You know, educated people will also be like, oh, there was a conjunction between Mars and Saturn, and, you know, and it was in like this, and so, like,

the pestilence has come down out of the sky. So, you know, like, our best educated minds are really, like, working on it. And because they are incredibly smart people, and they've grown up with this explanation of this is how the world works, this is how the universe works. Again, and they're just going to be like, um, part of that, right? Talk to me about huge locust, because... This is a scary one. This is a scary one. I mean, we're going to move on to the bigger monsters, the bigger beasts in the apocalypse.

But the locust, Eleanor. Okay. And they're even, like, worse than you think, because a lot of this. That's pretty bad. I know. I know. Because it's, like, gross, you know, when you think about it. And you go, wow, locust is the size of horses.

Wait, they're that big. Yeah. Hold on. That's like one of those. Would you rather fight one horse-sized locust or like 20 locust-sized horses? Yeah. Locust-sized horses. Yeah, every time, you know.

100%. Like, I'm picking the mammals every time. At least I know how their brains work. This is how it goes. They're a horse-sized. I did not know that. Yeah. And a lot of the time, the way that they are depicted in art is that they look kind of like a horse.

And they oftentimes have like the face of a human. Don't like it. They are like a monster. The hybrid weird things. Yeah. So it's like, you know, we think, you know, you hear locusts, you're like, oh, yeah, the bug. And those are bad and we don't like them and they eat your crops. But it's worse than that.

Tell me this, though. In reality, are people in medieval Europe, particularly in northern? in Europe, coming into contact with locust, or is this a creature that's kind of spread from warmer climbs into the cold north? I mean, like, in theory, it could happen, but really, this is like a rumor. Okay, this is a monstrous version. Yeah, exactly. So, like, Italians there, they're going to know all about locusts.

That's absolutely fine. Swedish people? Maybe not. Like, less so, you know. And so, in a way... Can you imagine just showing them a picture of a horse-sized locust being like, this is coming for you? Yeah, yeah. This exists in the world.

And you're like, and you're being told that it does, right? And, like, again, there's, like, this pattern thing, because of... Of course, locusts are one of the plagues that Moses brings up in order to punish the Egyptians because they won't let everybody go. So everyone is like, oh, well, that's real. This is definitely like a thing that exists. And I'm aware of frogs, which are one of the plagues. So locust as well. But then if you've never seen a locust and then you're like horse-sized locust and they're like, yeah, and it's kind of like a dude's head on a horse and there's wings, you're like, I don't.

But also, why not? Because I'm told they exist. I know they exist. They are devastating to crops. So that's all very real. Again, it's just enough reality to base the narrative in so that we can then extrapolate fantasy out of it almost. It's interesting.

It's kind of kind of like, you know, a game of telephone or something, right? So, you know, when like someone says, like, whispers something in someone's earring. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So you're like, locus, like, big thing eats props, and you're like, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And then, like, by the time you get to Northern Europe, they're like, face of a dude. Yeah. So it can kind of like in the ground.

Yeah, I don't know. It doesn't sound right to me, but she's the expert. Okay, let's get, oh, I was going to say, let's get bigger. Well, it is a bit bigger. We're going into beasts now, right? Yeah. Boasts. We have, we have... One small, please.

Yeah, I get Alyssa Edwards into doing. We have dragons slash Satan. Satan being a dragon, dragons being Satan. I was going to say he's been missing from this so far. Yeah. And it's interesting because things get going without him, right? So, like, these things are, because you have to understand that the apocalypse is something that God is letting happen, because God is like, I'm sick of you, people. That'd be me if I was God.

I'd be like, guys, I am tired. I'm just going to go and destroy all this. So, you know, at this point in time, it's just been kind of like things are unleashed that were being held back, right, by, you know, God's love. So this isn't, like, a great evil plan done by Satan, but he does crop up. Yeah, so Satan is now going to show up, right? He's like, everybody's, like, things have got, like, pretty, like... He just had his feet up for the first bit of the apocalypse. Exactly.

Oh, this is happening. He's coming in for, like, Act 2. Yeah. He is a dragon. It's the way, and he's got many heads. Is this always the case? In medieval depiction, the devil is always a dragon? In this context, yes.

In the apocalyptic context. Yeah, in the apocalypse context. And there's going to be, like, more than one guy who's got seven heads. Like, look, I don't know what to tell you. It's just, like, this is what's going to happen. And so the dragon comes up, and Satan is... is, you know, like depicted oftentimes as a red dragon. And he's going to come up and what he depicts is kind of like the spiritual foe of God. Okay. So he's going to come out and he's like,

hell yeah, can't wait to like eat all of the innocent and torture them. This is going to be absolutely brilliant, right? So out he comes. But he is going to run into his old op, St. Michael the Archangel. Oh. For like a final throwdown. Yeah, you know, it's like the ultimate twunk. Yeah, we love. I'll tell you what, there are a lot of St. Michael's out there, and I'm very serious. Where he's, like, shown fighting the devil, and the devil's, like, very thirsty for it. He's like, stop. Oh, wow.

Oh, he's got his sweat on my throat, you know, kind of a deal. So, you know, basically, Satan ended up down there during the war between the angels and the demons. And so he has fought St. Michael once before and lost, and now it's, like, rematch. He is going to lose again. But so there's going to be like a big battle in the sky between the dragon and St. Michael. And of course, St. Michael is going to win because obviously it does. But this doesn't stop the dragon from existing. Basically, what Satan then does is he's like, tag me out, bro, tag me out.

And he goes to the beast in the abyss. Oh, okay. So he could kind of occupy these different creatures and they still exist, whether he's in them or not. Yeah. So the beast of the abyss now, we usually identify as Antichrist. Okay. Okay, so the Antichrist is not Satan. That is correct. Oh, but kind of is. Yeah, so, okay. So Antichrist is like, he's this whole other guy, right?

And so the thing that we need to understand about Antichrist is Antichrist is created by Satan as a way of kind of mocking Christ. So. In the same way that God creates Christ, right? Yeah. It's kind of a mirror of that. Exactly. But, obviously, because Satan can't create anything, because, you know, he's not God, only God can create. there are a couple of different ways that the Antichrist may have been made One of the stories is that he is

born from an evil monk and nun Sometimes it's like it's a sex worker That's so medieval isn't it? So like sometimes it's like a sex worker things like that And so then what Satan does is like Oh yeah this looks like an evil baby And what he does is he essentially possesses the baby And then that possessed baby is Antichrist

Because he can't make it And then Antichrist will go on to do all sorts of different things. There's like an Antichrist legend that usually happens before the apocalypse. So he basically shows up and he's like, hey, what's up? Everybody? It's your boy, J.C. And everyone is like, oh, real talk. Better worship this guy now. He's going to rebuild the temple in Jerusalem. He's going to have everyone worship him. Enoch and Elias are going to show back up. They're going to have a fight. He's going to kill them. He's going to try to ascend bodily into heaven, but he can't do it. And then the Spirit of Christ's mouth is going to strike him down. And then

the apocalypse can begin. Right. Or the 10,000-year reign of peace. It depends on who you're asking, right? It's very complex. Like, a lot of things are in flux. And where's the ring in all of this? I know, I know.

I know. And so he has been defeated by the time the apocalypse starts and what... Who has the Antichrist? The Antichrist has. And so he gets thrown into the abyss. And so now he's going to come back out, not in the form of a human, which he is before,

but as the many-headed beast. All right. This is... I know, right? It's like... Epic. Yeah. And so he has like seven heads again. A lot of the times he's kind of like depicted as a leopard. He's like, I'm spotty girl. Oh. Oh. Like it's spotty. And so he comes out. And so if Satan is the depiction of spiritual evil, he is the depiction of sort of political or worldly evil. Okay. So what he's going to do is he's going to go around and he's like, what's up? Your boy is back. He's spotty this time. And he's going to get all of the leaders of the world.

world to worship him. And everyone's going to be like, we love the beast. This is great. And then again, basically the same thing again with the terrorizing of the innocents and, you know, the hey-hay, right? So he then sticks around for longer. The Antichrist is quite petrifying. Yeah.

Yeah. That's the most genuinely frightening thing so far. Yeah. And he really is able to just sort of convince people to follow him. And this, I think, still is quite resonates with us now because it's like, you know, when you see political leaders and you see people being like, oh, yeah, this is great. And you're like, oh, going down the wrong path there. Yeah, right? Like, I mean, so it's not particularly difficult.

And again, that kind of roots it in reality a little bit more. Like you were saying that kind of the blurring of real life and real experience mixed in with all this kind of spirituality and this superstition. We've had a lot of men so far, Eleanor. Yeah. Let's talk about possibly the most exciting person in this ensemble, The Hore of Babylon, please. No, this is my girl. Okay, so now it's illegal for women to have hobbies, apparently. After all of this, we've had Gogamah, Gogh, we've had the Antichrist, but women can't have hobbies.

No, it's like, hobbies are the scariest thing. So, my girl's going to show up riding the Beast of the Abyss. Of course. Because what she is doing, the horror of the abyss. Babylon is basically she is showing you the way that the rules of the world can be perverted through sex. So there has to be a way of bringing sex into this. Like, you know, everyone is bored. They're like, I'm seeing lots of monsters. I'm seeing nary a titty. Yeah. Like, we got to make it happen. We need something slightly. And we have to blame women for something. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So we should go to

the sex realm for that. Sex realm. Yeah. Whatever. I don't know what that is about. So So, Gurley gets in trouble for knowing she's hot, standard. So it's like oftentimes the first way she's depicted is she's like looking in a mirror being like la la la and like coming her hair. Can you imagine? Nothing worse, right? And anyway, then Gurley's going to get all dolled up, really nice little dress on her. She's going to go ride the beast around.

She is going to drink from a cup full of either all the filth of the world or the blood of the martyrs. Okay. It depends. I'll go for option B. And she's going to go around and be like, you-hoo, at like every single leader in the world, right? She's referred to as either the mother of abominations or the mother of harlots, which I prefer the mother of harlots. Oh, my God, yes, please.

And people are going to be like inspo, you know, when she goes on where they're like, wow, this looks really good. And it's kind of like also a warning, so about the way that powerful men can be brought down through lust. But also a way that women can be like, yo, I would like to have some sex now, right? It's the end of the world. May as well shag about it, right? And so it's kind of like a warning about being continent. Yes. Even during difficult times.

Uh-huh. So she's my favorite girl because I just think that the girls get a bad rap. Like, okay, now I can't break the will of powerful men, I guess. And I love that, like, all the other creatures in this lineup are to do with, like, natural disasters, There's big emergencies, things that are genuinely terrifying and beyond people's control. And then we have a woman who's like, she represents sex. Yeah, and they're like, sexy power. Yeah, sexy power is not good.

You have to just kind of understand that sex for them is a problem, right? Like, and you spend a lot of time in the Christian context attempting to just get people to have sex in exactly the right way for the right reasons, which is like married procreative. Yeah. And then that's it. And so this is about the dangers of getting. people to spill over into lust. Lust is a lot of times seen as sort of like the gateway sin. It's the one that you go to that is going to knock on everything else because it's so universal. Like everyone really, really understands lust. And indeed, it's particularly tied up with women because

it's Eve who ate the apple and figured out everyone was naked and that stuff was sexy. Right. So it's going to be women who are bringing this in. And people are deeply uncomfortable with women's sexuality. And so it's seen as a monster in and of itself. Right. In time-honored after dark tradition, we have an image and we are going to look at this, the very whore of Babylon. So I will very briefly describe this and then you can tell me where I've gone wrong and what I've missed. So we have on the right-hand side of this very colourful, I was just asking Eleanor before we looked at this, is this actually medieval, because it looks incredibly colorful, incredibly well-rendered. And it's really compelling. But anyway, we've got the Antichrist, I think,

You can tell me from wrong, who is this multi-headed horned dragon-type beast. On his back then is the whore of Babylon. And she is holding, she dressed in red, and she is holding that cup that you talked about. I actually thought it was a garden feature until you pointed out that it's sitting around. I was like, why is there a random fountain in the background? But no. She's also interestingly, like, you alluded to Eve earlier. She's under a tree as well.

It's there to be read if you want to read. The setting is very verdant. by the way, it's very fertile looking ground. We then, on the left-hand side, we have in supplication, we have three kings crowned and in their jewels. We also have other nobles finely dressed. We're seeing a lot of blue. We're seeing a lot of red.

We're seeing a lot of green. So we're talking status here. And then you see kind of center of the image an angel with blue wings in a red robe directing somebody who you can explain to us a little bit more just about like, now this is the horror of Babylon. And it kind of looks like, oh, and there's a little bit. little river running through the whole thing and a town in the background. It doesn't like very apocalyptic. It doesn't. There's no disasters going on in the background. It's just...

Well, the disaster is a sexy lady. Yeah, okay. That is the terrible thing. So... I love Eleanor. You know, talking about the fact that this is the original coloring from the 15th century. That she's in a red dress. I mean, like every tempteress in Hollywood since time. Yeah. The daughter time. Yeah. Yeah. That she is, you know, sexy ladies be wearing red and don't look at them too closely. You know, we haven't moved on that much is the thing. So, yeah. And, and And so you have this, all of the people are just kind of like drawn to her. They're like, yes, falling on my knees immediately and like as you would, right? I like that she's got this sort of a tiara that looks like a papal tiara.

Yes. Where she's got like three crowns and everyone is like real talk. Look at the sumptuous fur trim on her dress. So, you know, this is like as sexy as it gets. It's as good as it gets. And now the angel and the guy here, that is St. John being shown by the angel. because the angel is basically taking him around during the revelation and being like, you like that, like that, how about this? So he's like, horror Babylon right there.

Like, don't, like, don't forget. This is the revelation. And so this is really kind of showing what that can mean. Now, this is also sort of like the cusp with Protestantism when we have this coming out. And so one of the reasons she's wearing this tiar that looks kind of papal is that also this is like being like, sometimes people will be like, the church is the whore of Babylon. Yes. You know. Wow.

Oh, okay. And there's like, so again, it's this really malleable concept where it's like, well, what is it that the rulers of the world adhere to? Then you can just go, that's the horror of Babylon. It could just be a sexy lady. It could be the church. Sometimes people will say that it's the Holy Roman Emperor. It's all sorts of things. It's always movable, right?

Talk to me then about how this crazy, complicated, malleable story works in reality in the medieval period, and the fact that people can tie it to things like the church or women is the problem or whatever it is. You know, there are these kind of shape-shifting elements. First of all, are people well-versed in the story of the apocalypse? Does the the ordinary person understand all of these elements. And second, how effective is this belief, this fear of the apocalypse coming, or this excitement for the apocalypse, in terms of everyday life for ordinary people? So ordinary people know a lot about this because, yes, it is very central to the Christian story, but also there's a whole season that you sit around thinking about the

apocalypse, which is Advent. You know, we've turned Advent into Christmas. Advent is not Christmas, right? Like the lead up to Christmas is about the apocalypse. It's about the apocalypse. You know, it's getting darker. It's getting darker. It's getting darker. And so every year for that four weeks, you sit around and you think about this. And they will just read the apocalypse to you at church. And, you know, despite what everyone will have you tell, yeah, they're doing that in Latin. But then they're going to give you a big old sermon about what that means. And there'd be paintings on the side of the walls. There's paintings on the side of the walls. It's so common to have paintings in a church that are showing the apocalypse. Super common over church doors to have like a last judgment or an apocalypse scene so that everyone goes, okay, yeah, so this is what's going to happen at the end. door, because everyone's going to have to pass through that, so that's something people really need to see. Yeah, exactly. And minimal people might not be literate in the sense that they can read and write. But what they are incredibly good at doing is reading images.

And so this is all extremely legible to them. So if you show them... They are highly literate. They are highly literate. They are just in a different way to how we would understand it. And in a way that a lot of people now just simply cannot do. Right? Like, you show them the horror babel and they'll be like, oh yeah, and they'll be able to tell you the entire story.

Now people are like, she's pretty. It's a lady on a dress. you know, like so, which is cool, right? And so they are incredibly aware of this, and it's just a really big part of their history. And now, it is incredibly malleable as a result of that, and so people can kind of, like, go around pinning things on it. The church is not particularly happy with that all the time. Now, you can't stop people doing it. You don't want to stop people from preaching about the apocalypse at the correct and designated time, right? But what the church really doesn't want you to do is predict the apocalypse.

Because that's their job. They're like, because the thing is, you don't know when it's going to happen, right? Jesus says over and over and over, you cannot know, it's just not up to you. There's no way for you to actually know it. Yeah, exactly. You can exert greater control if you don't know when it's happening. And then the trouble is, too, if somebody says, oh, hey, yeah, like the apocalypse is happening and then it doesn't, then it calls the entire thing into question.

Yeah. So they really don't want people going around. saying, oh, this is proof that the world is ending. They're like, please don't say that. Do not tell anyone that this is what going on. Some people are going to fall into routines of chaos as well if they believe that the end is night. They're not going to be like, thank God I'm going to go to heaven.

They can be like, oh, I can go and check my next door neighbor now because I've always wanted to and now it doesn't matter. 100%. And definitely we see this in particularized popular movements, for example, like the flagellulence, what happens when people think that stuff is getting. out of control. Okay, tell us about those. Okay, so the fledglins are a group of people who crop up during the Black Death. They kind of start out in the German lands, but then they move around a lot. And the idea that they have is God is like punishing the world for being

sinful. He's probably bringing about the end of it. So what we are going to do about this is we're going to go to various cities, we're going to strip to the waist and we're going to beat ourselves. And then this way, God is going to be like, oh, they've punished themselves enough. never mind, I'm going to call off. Aren't they great? Yeah, just like, ooh, it's like, girl, that's so much. Like, never mind, okay, seems good. Being a bit of a pick-me, calm down.

Exactly, exactly. And it's a really interesting thing because at first when it starts happening, everyone is like, oh, that's great, yeah, like, really good idea, really nice. And then eventually everyone is like, it's too much. Yeah, and the church doesn't love it because, obviously, these are just like some guys. Okay. And what the church never likes is when some guys take it upon themselves to start a religious movement. Because they're acting on behalf of everyone else, right? So they're going to get loyalty

and followers potentially, although I think most people would be kind of repulsed by it. Yeah, well, at first they're like, this is great, and then they're like, it's kind of weird. And then... Thank you for your service, but stop now. Exactly. And so basically, as they're moving around, they do amass followers. And so it kind of starts out as a bunch of men are doing this. And eventually, you've got women following them as well. You've got children following them, and they're going from place to place. They're often kind of like sleeping rough on the side of the road. and then eventually the rumor becomes they shagging in the woods. Well, where else would that go?

Because, like, they're half naked. This is, like, the thing that they do, you know, they're sitting around, like, doing basically very public BDSM. And so they're kind of like, oh. That kind of, like, the flagellation of the body, and it's that intimacy and that performance with their flesh. And, yes, it's non-sexual to begin with. But you can see how people would make that connection in this period.

Exactly. And so, you know, obviously, the church takes an incredibly dim view of this because they don't like the idea that there can be lay intercessors with God, right? Like obviously that's their job to be doing it. That's a bit too Protestant now. Yeah, yeah, exactly. They're like

absolutely not with all of this and definitely not with the overt kind of sexual connotations that people start interpreting from there. So it's an interesting one because here they are being pickies. It is like what you said because either they're saying, well, we can put a stop to this. We can intercede directly

with God and we can make sure that the apocalypse doesn't happen. Or they're saying, oh, aren't I good? Oh, like, I'm going to definitely be fine. And then if the world is ending, well, I tried. And I'm going to be sorted. Yeah, and I'm going to be one of the elect. It's giving society for the Reformation of Manners in the 18th century context. It's very much like, oh my God, we're so holier than that. We're going to control everyone else. We've saved you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're welcome. Also, probably in that context and in the medieval context, going around spreading a crop load of disease. You would imagine, like, they're carrying shit with them wherever.

It's like during the Black Death, the thing that you do not want to happen, it's like a bunch of people who are moving around. It's like not great, not good. And people know that. Yeah. People know that. And they are really aware that these idiots again. That Black Death comes from varying places and it can be moved around. So, yeah, they don't love it.

So ironically, they are kind of spreading the apocalypse. I know. It's like, great job, everyone. Yeah, really good job. Eggs a question for everybody. I start with you, Eleanor. Could you survive the medieval? she's already making place.

Could you survive a medieval apocalypse? Would you want to? Yeah, I mean, that's the thing is like, so for me, it's like, you know, when people are like, oh, well, how would you survive the zombie apocalypse? I'm always like, no, thanks. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm good. My sister says, like, I would just lie down and die.

Like, I don't have the energy for this. Yeah, I'm not, I agree. Your girl isn't running. Yeah. Like that, no. So, I mean, probably not. I think that, like, even if it's not going to be that you get, like, eaten by Antichrist or, you know, you die in.

an earthquake or whatever. I'm telling you, I just feel like the supply chains are really disruptive. Like, how are you getting dinner, right? Like, that's the thing. So I don't, I'm not even interested, girl. Will my delivery work? Like, if I can't get down pub, I'm sorry, like,

I will again, lay down and die. Like, no, thank you. Like, I'm not beating any of the allegations. I'm not built for this. No, thanks. I think practically I agree with you. I probably wouldn't. But the drama side of me goes,

but what if I were to help lead it? So I would just, like, get involved in the drama. The ultimate pick me. Yeah, I just feel like, what a, I was the whore of Babylon or whatever it is. Red doesn't look good on me, though. I have two things. You could be a trumpeting. It's true.

You're just going out there being like, yes, queen. So maybe if I got involved on that level, right, Maddie, you're not surviving it. Wow. No, she's not there. Okay, all right. I love this going. No, no, no. How dare you?

No, not a chance. Literally not a chance. No, I would be, I'd just find it tedious. I can't be bothered one monster after another. What's happening now? Unless she become one of the monsters. Yeah. That's the only one.

I know. It's too much effort. It is. I agree. I agree. I would run off to the woods and just live there with the dogs, but there'd be all the flagellants having sex in the woods all the time. So that'd be just annoying.

And then you're like, come on, guys. I came here every piece of quiet. I'd be really anxious that the dogs get eaten by some monster as well. Yeah. Yeah. I was on a walk-up weekend. Basically, we're all dead. Yeah.

I was on a walk over the weekend and I was afraid that a bird of prey was going to take my spawless dog, so I couldn't survive. I mean, she was literally tiny. She didn't. Not that small. The bird of prey is definitely smaller than her, but I was like convinced. I was like, Shane, grab the dogs from leaving. But it didn't happen. Just like leaning over her to protect.

Right. Get out of here. We've had enough for you. Thank you, Eleanor, for coming in and telling us all about the medieval apocalypse. If you've enjoyed this conversation, and I know you have, then check out Gone Medieval with Eleanor and Matt, of course. And you can find Eleanor's documentary on HistoryHit TV. Until next time, leave us a five-star viewer wherever you get your podcast so other people can find us too. And we'll see you next time.

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