After Dark: Myths, Misdeeds & the Paranormal - Day in the life of a Black Death Rat

Episode Date: October 16, 2025

What did Medieval people think about rats? Did they have any idea that they were the cause of the Black Death? How did they use charms and poisons to try to get rid of them? Today we explore the world of the Black Death Rat with Kathleen Walker-Meikle, historian of Medieval pets and animals whose books include 'Medieval Pets', 'Cats in Medieval Manuscripts', 'Dogs in Medieval Manuscripts'.This episode was edited by Tom Delargy and produced by Freddy Chick. The senior producer was Charlotte Long.You can now watch After Dark on Youtube! www.youtube.com/@afterdarkhistoryhitSign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries, with a new release every week and ad-free podcasts. Sign up at https://www.historyhit.com/subscribe.  You can take part in our listener survey here.All music from Epidemic Sounds.After Dark: Myths, Misdeeds & the Paranormal is a History Hit podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hi, we're your host's Anthony Delaney and Maddie Pelling. And if you would like After Dark myths, misdeeds and the paranormal, ad-free and get early access, sign up to History Hit. With a History Hit subscription, you can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries with top history presenters and enjoy a new release every week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com forward slash subscribe. The Hulu original series, Murdoch, Death and the Family, dives into secrets, deception, murder, and the fall of a powerful dynasty. Inspired by shocking actual events and drawing from the hit podcast, this series brings the drama to the screen like never before, starring Academy Award winner Patricia Arquette and Jason Clark. Watch the Hulu original series, Murdoch, Death in the Family, now streaming only on Disney Plus. Hello and welcome to After Dark, now also available on YouTube as well as wherever you get your podcasts.

Now, we are delving into a history that we know quite well on After Dark today. It is, of course, the Black Death. But we are looking at this particular episode from a very new angle. And that is what it was like for the poor plague-ridden rats that started it all. Or did they? Here's Maddie with more. We're back in 1348. under the blue skies and white clouds of Merry England.

A heavily laden cart is rolling toward a church, with a cluster of houses gathered around its base. In the shadows, a beady eye looks out. A nose sniffs the air. The rest is hidden, but we know what it is. This putrid eminence, this being of rottenness, this rat. Black death on four small legs. Rattus, ratus.

Our companion for today's episode hops off, squeaking merrily as it heads for the dark corners of the village, but we are going to follow it. Welcome to the world of the Black Death Rat. Have we officially lost our minds is the question that you're going to be asking yourself throughout this episode? Because producer Freddie has been trying to get this episode done for quite some time. And now it is finally happening. It is a day in the life of a black death rat. We are going to be asking the question, how medieval rats differed from modern rats? Didn't know that they did, but they did.

And we'll find more about that. What did people think of them? What was it like for the poor rats when they got the plague? So we would like to welcome to After Dark today to help us explore these questions. The perfect guest, Dr. Kathleen Walker Meekle, who is going to talk us through all of these questions and more. And Kathleen is a historian at the University of Basel, and she writes about medieval animals and is currently working with a team of scientists on medieval rodents and disease. So who better than Kathleen to help us in this episode?

But Kathleen, welcome to After Dark. Thank you for being here. Thank you for inviting me. I just want to give some context for those of you who might be coming to the Black Death for the first time. It's generally thought at the moment that around the 1347, 1348, Mark, is when it's at least at its peak in Europe, as opposed to when it's beginning. Best estimates put it, somewhere between 40 to 60 percent of the population of Europe are dying in the years 1347 to 51. King Edward III is King of England, David II, on the throne in Scotland. The Pope at the time is Pope Clement the 4th in Avignon, who came up in our episode about

the persecution of the Jews. So you can go back and listen to that too. When we're talking about 1348, we're talking about medical faculties at the University of Paris, who are theorizing that the Black Death was some sort of planetary alignment thing. Something has gone wrong. There are earthquakes releasing rotten, trapped vapors in the earth, and this is what's causing all of this chaos. But nobody is hinting at this moment in time, in the 13th, 40s, that it might be, well, either the rats or the fleas. So that is our overall idea of what we're getting as we go into this history. But we began with Maddie giving us this image of a rat skipping around the streets,

very stereotypical rat in a very stereotypical medieval town. It's filthy. There's people scratching everywhere. But is that actually right, Kathleen? What would a typical medieval town have looked like at this time? I would push back at the idea of filthy. There's very much, I think, the stereotype for mid-agedes that everything's dark and filthy

when actually everything is usually very bright. I always use the example of medieval heraldry to show how much they love colours, but also on filth, they very much are aware of the problems when you have people living in close confinement with others. So they are often, there's regulations against you dumping rubbish, there's regulations against you having your pigs

wandering around the city at will. Butchers are told off or are fined if they're throwing out entrails. People that have ducks and chickens might get told off if they're letting all those animals leave their small excrements everywhere. So I think the sort of filthiness, there is, I guess, it's all dirt. tracks, but on the whole, it's not as filthy as you think it might be. And also because they're aware of their circumstances. People had noses back then in the 14th century. And similarly, you referred to when you talked about astronomical theories at the time and the Black Death,

is that those theories that disease is caused from foul vapors was because people often And this is our thought that foul smells, bad smells, were bad for your health. And so there were lots of regulations against this. And similarly, with scratching, people try to avoid having fleas or lice. We've got lots of recipes for people trying to reduce things such as head lice. You really didn't want sort of fleas. They knew that they were uncomfortable. And similarly, there were also recipes.

for things such as removing the fleas off your dog. Age-old problem. Yes, an age-old problem. But yes, they're very aware. The idea that people in the middle ages are living around happily in their filth, I'm afraid, is a stereotype I'd like to very strongly take against. And similarly, it's to do the same with washing. This is a place in which your village, along with a rat, probably had a public bathhouse as well.

And talking of things that in our imagination of this time period, we've probably got wrong as Well, rats themselves didn't necessarily look like the rats that we might see today. So tell us what a medieval rat looks like, Kathleen. Today, and it has been the case since the 18th century, the most common rat is the brown rat. However, in the Middle Ages, the rat you would have seen is the black rat. This is the rat. Its Latin name is Rattus Rattus, and it is slightly smaller and less bulky than the brown rat. which really has very much taken over all the environments of the black rat.

The black rat itself is not native to Europe and came from South Asia probably a couple of thousand years ago. And so this rat, it's slightly leaner, but it's still got quite a thick tail and is noticeably larger than a mouse, which is the other rodent which people would be used to seeing in their homes. And they do make a distinction between rats and mice. Sometimes the word mouse is used as a generic term for any kind of annoying rodent. But other times they very much say it's a rat, and they'll describe this as usually it is a large mouse. There's normally not that many references to the colour that it is dark,

than your regular brown town mouse. It's so interesting, isn't it? Because it's such a pivotal part of this history. And actually, and we've talked about the Black Death, an awful lot on After Dark, but we've never actually drilled down into what that might look like. And that I had just always assumed they were the same types of rats that we identify today.

And also because Maddie and I are 18th Centurius, and it's so interesting that you make that distinction around that time, that's when this idea of what the rat is and looks like and the species is slightly different. So it's interesting that we've been left with this legacy of something other than what they are experiencing in the 14th century. But Maddie has an image here, which is kind of hilarious. To me, it reminded me of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. Maddie, describe what you're seeing here. It's rats in a boat, essentially. Yeah, it's not snakes on a plane, but rats in a boat. Okay, so this is a

an image presumably from some kind of medieval manuscript. And if you've ever seen any animal depicted in a medieval manuscript, you'll know what the vibe is here. So there's a depiction of the sea, there's all choppy waves. And atop this sea is a little boat. And inside this little boat are four, what I assume are rats. I mean, they look quite mouse-like to me, but that's interesting that these are rats that are closer to mice. There's one big one at the back with an oar, and then three little ones with the oars as well, the small oars, and just above them is what I think is supposed to be the sun beaming down on them. I suppose Kathleen, this speaks to the ubiquity of these creatures in the medieval world that they're appearing in art like

this, but why are they depicted, first of all, why are they in a boat, but also why are they depicted at all? In a manuscript that's presumably made using vellum that's incredibly costly to create, Why go to the effort at all of depicting a rat? Here, with this is a particularly delightful example, I always call it sort of rats escaping, the sinking ship literally, is that you did mention correctly that are they rats or are they mice? And it is quite hard to make on an image the distinction. As I mentioned before, usually size is the only thing that medieval commentators really note

is difference between rats and mice, not colour. And similarly, colour is something I never get too fast about a medieval artist because they were cheerfully paint cats green, rats bright blue. So that's not really distinguishing. On imagery, if the artist or scribe has thoughtfully put next to the animal, this is a rat, which by the way, sometimes they do. I'm always very happy because, yay, I can identify that. rat, not mouse. But I think sometimes, almost they're used interchangeably. It's usually the bigger

animal. They're often in the company of cats, which is seen as their proverbial enemy. And the reason why they're there in the manuscript is that it's very much part of a tradition in medieval manuscripts that on the margins of the text, and the text might be, in fact, usually often is, perhaps quite a very serious theological or a liturgical text. And then you'll have what just seems absolute silliness, such as rats in a castle with crossbows as cats are attacking them. And this was very much, it was seen as amusing and they liked very much this idea of the world upside down. So roll reversal. So just as you will have hairs beating up dogs or beating up people because the animal that is normally picked on by the other species all of a sudden

gets its own back. Likewise, in a lot of this imagery, you'll have the rats and the mice taking on human characteristics, like they sometimes are even dressed in clothes and doing human activities, like in this case rowing a boat, or else they'll be doing things such as chasing a cat, or the cat will be terrified or be desperately trying to chase them. Imagine that our rat is scampering through the streets of this medieval town. What animals might it come into contact with? And are the fleas from our rat then spreading to other animals? Usually not.

They'd probably fleas would then go on to humans. It is true that the fleas could go to other mammals, but sort of unlikely in the transmission of this disease. But yes, the rat would encounter a variety of both wild and domestic animals. It would encounter mice, even though in a lot of medieval texts you get the impression that the authors think that rats are bullying mice or at least are very much the senior partners in the relationship. They're often described as sometimes living together, but it's the rats that are giving the orders and the mice are sort of living very much under their thumb. So apart from mice, they'll be living with dogs, and here in a town, this will be everything from guard dogs to butcher's dogs, to pet dogs, to cats, which are being kept as pets,

and also, I'm afraid, sometimes skinned by people for their furs. Lots of pigs, because lots of people are keeping their own swine in pigsties. there'll be horses sometimes you will have sheep and cows being bought in for slaughter and for sale so there's a variety of animals and of course people I just want to take a little sidestep for a second

because after dark we were talking before we started recording and we are all pet lovers here and I just wanted to sidestep away from just the general idea of livestock and animals more generally into pets just for a second and I know this is slightly adjacent to the topic but it is something that I find quite interesting. What kind of animals are people keeping as pets in medieval times?

And what is their relationship to them? Because there's a conception really that the petting of animals doesn't really begin maybe until the 18th century potentially. But as far as I know, people are keeping pets in medieval times too. Well, I'll have to do a sort of confess an aside as the author of a book called medieval pit Cats in medieval manuscripts and dogs in medieval manuscripts. There's a lot of, they are keeping pets, particularly if we define that as an animal kept primarily for companionship that you give a name to that's kept usually inside living quarters, such as inside the house. And most of the pets that they're keeping are dogs in a variety of sizes and fluffiness.

but they're also keeping cats and cats are very popular pets on stereotypes just as much as there's stereotypes about the medieval filthy city there was the stereotype of the middle ages being anti-cat and this is not true they are very fond of cats as pets

and cats also have the good use is that because they can get rid of your rats and your mice they are something that you can justify that you're keeping and it's why a lot of people in religious orders are keeping cats for this purpose. But they're also keeping parrots. In fact, the species of parrots they keep is the red-necked parakeet, which is the one that you

see a lot in southern England at the moment. They're keeping pet monkeys, they're keeping pet squirrels, pet rabbits, and there's some people that keep slightly bizarre pits. I've found references to people keeping pit badges with little collars, pit marmots wearing little suits, all kinds of things. I love it. We need to do a whole episode on this. Yeah, we absolutely should. Okay, so Kathleen, our rat has arrived in town.

He's walked around, or she, has walked around, got a sense of the layout of the place, maybe encountered some animals, wild undomesticated. Now they're going to head inside. Where might you find a rat inside in a domestic space in Mediterranean? England? Here might be anywhere from the walls, depending on if there's floorboards under those, there might not be, it might just be dirt, but if there's floorboards under that, also behind any wooden objects, it's true that there's less furniture in a medieval house than you are used to today, but still lots of little nooks and crannies. And like mice, rats are animals,

that really have lived with humans for millennia and have almost gotten quite used to the situation of living together, when to hide, when to come out and see if they can get any food and so on. So that's from our rats perspective. So when I see rats on like social media on TV, I think they're actually really quite cute. They remind me of my dog.

They remind me of Kip, actually, in some ways. I don't really know why he doesn't look like a rat. He's a terrier. But still, in fact, I have seen killed two rats I've seen him killed two rats Anyway look

That's what he was bred for It's not his fault You just out to keep out as a murderer and this podcast Anyway But if a rat scuttled across

the floor of my kitchen I would probably be like Oh my God There's a rat Get it or me out of here quickly What did medieval people do when they saw rats

How do they feel about them How do they think about them Similar to how we were today Or is it totally different They weren't that keen On rats They definitely saw them as vermin along with mice and assorted other creatures. And they did think that they were rather strange and disgusting.

And this is partly because rats and mice, along with fleas and worms, are generally in the period believed to be born by spontaneous generation. This is a bit weird, so bear with me. So some authors do cheerfully mention that they give birth normally, and he will even talk to the fact, which is quite obvious to anybody who has seen rats and mice, that they are very prolific. But at the time, there's a big belief that all sort of little sort of vermini animals that live on the ground, which are worms, snakes and so on, that they are born just out of putrid matter. And this is how they come out. And it's also why it wouldn't be that surprising to connect them to anything that is ill that is happening in your house because these are animals that are coming out of putrid matter being spontaneously generated.

And I'm sorry, I know this is very weird. No, this is perfect after dark material. Don't apologize. It's a case of they really do not like rats. When you see rats, you don't want it in your own. environment. You try to get rid of it. And there's a variety of methods they might do, such as rat traps, rat bait, call in a professional rat catcher. And it's a case that it's seen as almost harder to eradicate, I think, rats more than mice. The poisons are often a lot stronger,

but I don't think that they're just happily living with rats, which by the way, I share that I find rats utterly adorable, both the brown rat, but the black rat is absolutely gorgeous. And particularly if you see modern day fancy rats that are bred and have really fabulous coats. And yes, if we have any rat fanciers among the listeners, I'm sure they can be petting their rats in pride at this very moment. But yes, it was a case of if you saw rats, you try to remove them. And this might be with a variety of methods. let's talk about some of those methods then the first on my list Kathleen is

charms so people are using religious charms, magical charms to get rid of rats, what's happening there? Well it's a bit of a mix of what would you call sort of what would you call religion and magic that's another podcast but they'll use sometimes religious

wording such as referencing saints or perhaps you might do a diagram to do a diagram of the cross on the earth to try to go and remove said animals. But yes, it's not an official part of any liturgy. But yes, so there's all kinds of charms. There's some very specific magical tricks that you can try to do

to remove your rats. There's one that I found in a 15th century manuscript. It's quite unpleasant for the rats in question, but you take one rat, you put it in a pot, you heat up the pot, and it specifically says, that the other rats will feel very sad and sorry for their fellow rat, and they'll come out of their hiding homes and come to almost rescue their rat brother,

which in itself I find it's a rather interesting reflection on what they thought animals could feel for each other. But there's usually almost, I'd call bog standard charms in which you are calling on a, usually a religious authority to remove the rats or get rid of them. all together. Hi, it's Morgan from off the shelf, and I'm here to tell you about Paramount Pictures' new movie, regretting you,

a film adaptation of Colleen Hoover's best-selling book, Regretting You. If there's anything I love more than an adaptation, it's an adaptation that's going to make me feel something. and with Josh Boone, yes, the director of the Fultonar stars, at the helm, I'm ready. Between the first loves, secret relationships, and second chances, I am prepared to be going through every single emotion. This film also has a stacked cast starring Alison Williams, McKenna Grace, Dave Franco, Mason Fames, and so many more.

Go see regretting you only in theaters October 24th. This month, the Gone Medieval Podcast plunges headfirst into the wild world of Norse mythology. We're battling giants. Dodging tricksters and confronting the gods themselves. From fierce clashes in Valhalla to the chaos of Ragnerok. Monsters and mayhem await at every turn. Can you out drink Thorne or outwit Loki? Find out now on Gone Medieval from History Hit, wherever you get your podcasts.

Are there any specific charms that we know of? Were any of these written down or are these orally passed on? A mix of both. We do have some that were written down, and I actually have bought one today. Exciting. If you indulge me, I will read out. It's 15th century, and it's in Middle English, and it's addressed to a variety of religious figures.

It's addressed to the Virgin Mary. Mary and to St. Gertrude, and this is St. Gertrude of Nivelles, which is very much a saint that is good for calling on to remove your rats and mice. By the way, despite what social media says today, she is not the patron saint of cats, but she is the person to get rid of your rats and mice. I'll just adapt the Middle English. So, to get rats and drive them from a place, I command all the rats that are in this place within and without by the virtue of our sweet lady, and that is the Virgin Mary and Jesus, above whom that all creatures are below, and by the virtue of St. Gertrude, that holy maiden, and that God granted peace, so that no rats

dwell in this place. And I command that all the rats that are here should flee this place. and no rats dwell again in this place. And from there, all these rats will go in the name of the father and the son and the Holy Spirit. Amen. It is. But it's so right-casting. It's like a legal document. It covered all bases. But it's like a legal document. It is like a bit of magic, like you were saying. And then it ends in that really formalistic prayer type thing at the same time. It is all things. It is nothing. It is magical. And here is the end of it. The rats are not sitting there going, Oh, well, she told us we needed to leave. Yes, that's told.

Yeah, yeah, well, guess we need to go now. Yeah, yeah. So as well as these obviously ineffective ways of getting rid of rats, Kathleen, there were more, let's say, active ways of doing that. And we do know that rat poison was used in the medieval period. So what does that consist of? Well, rat poison you usually purchased. And this is actually, by the way, the plot twist in the Pardner's Tale,

in Jeffrey Chaucer's The Canterbury Tales I don't want to say, spoilers has been out for a while. You've had your time. You've had your time to read it. One character goes to an apothecary and buys rat poison in which he goes and puts in the wine

to poison the two other characters and it turns out that they actually kill him just after he's done this so everybody dies and there in the text that specifically says he goes and asks the apothecary for poison to kill his rats. And so some of the ones I've found, and I have to advise everybody, please do not try

these at home. It includes a bait to kill rats where you are mixing mercury and arsenic and pigs and hazelnut and walnuts and wheatmeal and pig fat and honey, and you make this into pellets. Another very popular way is you mix cream with sugar. and put arsenic, so the arsenic you will have purchased from your local apothecary on top. Other ones, you mix sugar, honey, and water and flour, which you all boil this up, add some arsenic and make more little pellets. This is like when you're trying to make your dog take medicine,

you put like this hill in a piece of cheese, isn't it? There's lots of pellets. There's one which is white hellebore powder mixed with barley meal and honey, which you make a little paste that you bake and fry and make again little pellets into this paste and there's quite a lot of sugar in which that is seen as the bit that's going to attract the rats

and you'll also see this in rat traps some of which are fiendishly complex like there's books we have about how to make rat traps and you could purchase rat traps made by craftsmen and some of them look just fabulous like there's ones that look like little miniature crossbows and there's also more what we'd consider the familiar box trap and these ones will talk about putting cheese inside the trap

to tempt your rat to go your rat or your mouse but the texts refer often to both animals so they might say bait against rats and mice sometimes it's just for rats and sometimes just for mice And I suppose if you didn't have this, you could always do. I haven't seen any for England, but there are religious anathemas where you can get a priest to ask for all your rats and mice to leave that place. So assuming that the rat in this case escapes the charm, escapes the box or the trap or whatever, the catcher basically, escapes the poison. So there's a few obstacles.

Assuming that our rat today that we're spending the day with manages to avoid. all of those things. How quickly are we thinking that this disease is spreading around the town if they're being spread through the rats, even if it's not necessarily by the rats? How quickly is it spreading? Probably quite quickly. This, again, is still under discussion by a lot of academics of how fast is the speed because from the historical sources, they talk about mass casualties in a very short period of time. So they give the impression that it's spreading quite fast. And there's still discussions on how fast can it spread, can it be possible for this to happen. But yes, if they were sort of plague rats, we would expect to see perhaps less of our rats

because they would have died as well. But there's always the possibility that we could have a sort of steady active population of rats still hanging around on the corners, waving their little rat and paws as you are dying. Now, Cathy, it must be somewhat frustrating for you as a historian who works on this time period and in particular on animals. Knowing that, of course, for the medieval people, they had no idea that it was the rats who were spreading this disease. Do you ever wish that you could go back in time and tell the medieval folks that this

was the issue? And do you think they would be surprised by that, given their beliefs in bad smells, spreading disease and that sort of thing? Would this be shocking news to them? I think if you could make an explanation perhaps that the rats were also sort of harbingers of disease, it wouldn't have come as a huge sort of surprise. It's true that they're thinking that a lot of disease is due to either fell emanations. but the main cause of disease is actually believed to be yourself, your own body, that due to a humorial distemper, that is, all your body substances are all mixed together, and if they get unbalanced, that makes you sick. So often it was sort of unclear of how could you get sick. And as you mentioned before, it's why there were all kinds of theories, and there's theories in plague treatises of how are we getting.

Plague. Is it coming from a conjunction of Mars, Jupiter and Saturn? Is it coming from sort of bad airs? Is it coming from people putting poison in wells? All kinds of theories that they were putting at the time. But I don't know actually if I almost would want to tell anybody about rats, almost to let the little beasties off the hook because I've noticed that even today in countries where plague is endemic. They'll often try to mention, like this is, for example, in the US, when there's been small outbreaks of plague among wild animals like prairie dogs, they'll say in the public health information, this is associated with their black death, just to warn everybody

about how dangerous and wrong it is, when actually today plague can be cured quite easily with antibiotics. So leave those vets alone. This is a pro-rat podcast. Kathleen, we're going to wrap up in just a second, but I can't have you on the podcast and not ask this question because we so rarely talk about animals. I'm also realising as we chat to you,

if you were able to, putting the rat aside, if you were able to highlight one medieval animal that has really stuck with you for whatever reason that you loved or you hated or you just wanted to know more about whatever it was, if there's one medieval animal that really stuck with you? Who would that be? And why should we know about that particular animal? I think that would be the squirrel, the red squirrel, mainly because it's an animal that we always today associated with being fluffy and cute. And what I find fascinating is that

a huge portion of the medieval economy is based around squirrel fur in the late mid-ageders. lots of clothes are being lined with squirrel fur, and you need huge amounts of squirrel fur for this. I think I found one record for the English court in the 14th century, where just per year they were buying 100,000 squirrel skins. So huge amounts on squirrels, but at the same time, they are keeping squirrels as pets, and also from last year, and this is a complete plug-out for research published in current biology is that connection between squirrels and leprosy in the Middle Ages in which squirrels being a potential reservoir of the disease. Well, you came here for the raps, everyone, and now you're ending with leprosy vectoring squirrels.

My dogs will be glad to know that squirrels are now in the firing line. They absolutely hate them. Thank you very much to today's guest, Kathleen Walker-Meekle. And to you guys, for listening along at home, remember you can now watch us on YouTube as well. And we're not terrible to look at, I would say. Right. Anthony, obviously very beautiful. Yes, yes.

So please do find us on YouTube. If you want to get in touch with the podcast to suggest episodes to us or to give us feedback, you can do so at afterdarkhistoryhit.com. And I'm here to tell you about Paramount Pictures, a new movie regretting you, a film adaptation of Colleen Hoover's best-selling book, regretting you. If there's anything I love more than an adaptation, it's an adaptation that's going to make me feel something. And with Josh Boone, yes, the director of the Fultonar stars, at the helm, I'm ready. Between the first loves, secret relationships, and second chances, I am prepared to be going through every single emotion. This film also has a stacked cast starring Alison Williams, McKenna Grace, Dave Franco, Mason,

fames and so many more. Go see regretting you only in theaters, October 24th. Bonjour, Canada. My name is Ryan. This is my best friend, Tony. And together we do the Tony and Ryan podcast. And people right across Canada, they listen to our show. Now, Stacey and Mali, you guys are sisters and pretty competitive.

Can you tell us who listens more? Oh, it's definitely me. No. We will text each other through the day saying, hey, have you listened to the pod yet? So it's something that even we talk about as sisters, what was talked about on the pod. So when you finish listening to this legendary podcast,

check out us, Tony and Ryan.