After Dark: Myths, Misdeeds & the Paranormal - Final Days of Anne Boleyn

Episode Date: October 17, 2024

Today we’re exploring the grim and heroic final days of the Anne Boleyn, the thousand day queen.We are joined by the one-and-only Dr Tracy Borman who bestselling book on this topic is Anne Boleyn & Elizabeth I: The Mother and Daughter Who Changed History.Edited by Tomos Delargy. Produced by Freddy Chick. Senior Producer is Charlotte Long.Enjoy unlimited access to award-winning original documentaries that are released weekly and AD-FREE podcasts. Sign here for up to 50% for 3 months using code AFTERDARKYou can take part in our listener survey here.After Dark: Myths, Misdeeds & the Paranormal is a History Hit podcast.

Out of nowhere there it was sudden shocking terrifying I have never in my life felt fear like that was this someone's idea of a sick prank or was it a horror movie? Come horribly alive. I'm thinking he killed him. I need to film the murder I'm Keith Morrison and this is Dateline's newest podcast the man in the black mask Listen for free each week or unlock new episodes early and enjoy ad-free listening by subscribing to Dateline Premium on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or datelinepremium.com. Buried in the depths of the internet is The Kill List, a cache of chilling documents containing hundreds of names, photos, addresses and specific constructions for their murders.

Kill List is a true story of how I ended up in a race against time to warn those whose lives were in danger. Follow Kill List on the Wanderer app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Kill List and more Exhibit C Truecrime shows like Morbid early and ad free right now by joining Wandery Plus. It could be Romeo and Juliet, the roles reversed, but with all the romance of a Shakespearean scene. And yet, all is not well here. In the past year, Henry's eyes have been roving. here. In the past year, Henry's eyes have been roving. Anne, meanwhile, has suffered a series of miscarriages, each as tragic and devastating as the last. Right now, the pair are arguing. There's fury on the King's face.

Ladies and gentlemen, it's time to begin the tragedy of the final days of Anne Boleyn. Hello there and welcome back to After Dark. Now today, as you've heard, we are exploring the last days of one of the icons of British history, Anne Boleyn, the thousand day queen. And we are joined by Dr. Tracy Boorman, whose latest bestselling book is Anne Boleyn and Elizabeth I, the mother and daughter who changed history. Tracy is, as you probably already know, joint chief curator of Historic World Palaces. And if that wasn't enough, she just received an OBE at the start of the year for her services to Heritage. Now, fans of After Dark will know Tracy because we've danced to a similar tune

before when we talked about the Ghost of Ambalin. So if you haven't listened to that episode, go back and listen to it now. But Tracy, first of all, welcome to After Dark again. Thank you so much for having me back. It's always lovely chatting with you too, and particularly about one of my all time favourite subjects, Anne Boleyn. Well, we couldn't have anybody else on when we knew we were doing this episode. We were like, it has to be Tracy. We have to have her back. But before we get into Anne Boleyn, I need to know what is it like to be OBE? Has that entirely changed your daily routine or is it just a nicer than that? I'd like to say it has and that there are red carpets everywhere and silver service. It hasn't

sunk in yet actually. I found out in what, May time? And I'm waiting for the letter saying, do you know what? We got it wrong. Sorry about that. We made a big mistake. No, I'm absolutely thrilled to bits. Don't yet know when I'm going to the palace. So I've got to go out and buy a new frock at some stage, I think. I will also point out that, Tracy, the last time you came on After Dark, you did not have the OBE. You came on After Dark and now you have the OBE.

So is this a pattern we've started? You're welcome. I think it could be. And who knows, you know, if I come back again, what will have happened by then? Well, listen, we're about to do some, you'll hear over the next few weeks, Tracy's going to be appearing on a few episodes. So yes, who knows where this could end up. She could be sitting on the throne before we know what happened.

But let's start with somebody who is sitting on the throne at this time, and that is Henry VIII. What is England like at this point in this history? What has he done to shape England, and from what point are we starting? EILEEN So I think we can say England is in turmoil thanks to Henry VIII and thanks to Anne Boleyn. Because there's traditionally lots of debate among historians and scholars as to would the Reformation have happened regardless of Henry and Anne Boleyn? I would argue not. I think Henry became obsessed with Anne Boleyn during the 1520s. He

was then married to Catherine of Aragon. And of course, famously Anne Boleyn said no, she wasn't going to be just a mere mistress. She wanted something rather better than that. So, Henry eventually realized if he wanted Anne Boleyn, he was going to have to marry her. In the wake of that decision came all of this turmoil, the split from Rome, splitting the country in two as well between those who wanted to stay faithful to Rome and those who embraced these new reformed ideas. It was all going to be worth it. Anne was pregnant by the time she married Henry in 1533 and then she had a mere daughter. Of course, we know now her daughter would turn out rather well, but Henry didn't know that. And then it was really just a catalogue of disasters in his marriage to Anne, particularly in terms of her tragic

miscarriages. So by 1536, the state of England is one of bitter infighting at court. Anne Boleyn is losing allies very rapidly. She must be fearing for her life. And she has an awful lot of enemies throughout the country. And the country is just still deeply divided. So there's been this kind of explosion of Henry's marriage and the Reformation. And now it feels like we're dealing with some of the fallout. We're going to talk a little bit about that fallout and Anne's downfall in particular, but Tracy, let's talk about Anne as Queen before that because I think that the version we've still inherited, that we're still handed of her today, is largely this impression

of a scheming woman, someone who uses her sexuality to manipulate the men around her. But we know that it's more complicated than that really. And in this moment before her downfall, when she's on this precipice, she's the Queen of England. What did she do in that role? And did she take it seriously? What was she like as a Queen? I'm so pleased you asked that Maddie, because Anne is usually stereotyped into this schemer. As you say, she says no to Henry because she's got bigger fish to fry. She wants to be his wife and be the queen. There's no evidence for that.

She probably said no because she didn't want to marry Henry. It's as simple as that. And she almost certainly wasn't scheming for the throne all along. But what I really admire about Anne Boleyn is that she made the most of the opportunity it presented once she was Queen. And one of the things that I have enjoyed most researching about Anne is the impact that she had on the religion of the country. Now, Anne genuinely was a religious reformer. She picked up all of these quite radical ideas during her youth in France and

she wanted to put them into practice as Queen of England. So she was driving through this Reformation, the split with Rome, the dissolution of the monasteries. And actually later in Elizabeth's reign, everybody recognised that. They called Anne Boleyn the fount of the Reformation. But since then, we've all just become obsessed with Henry and Anne and the love story turned bad. But I think it's always very fascinating and gratifying to just reflect actually on Anne's true impact as Queen. This is a woman who broke the mould and she didn't conform and she had opinions and wasn't afraid to voice them. She wasn't just going to be a meek and mild Queen consort. And therein actually lay some of the

trouble for her marriage. I love that Tracy, because I love this idea of the power that Anne Boleyn possesses. And our colleague here at History Hit, Dr. Elena Ionega, is doing some work at the moment on how soft power is power and how women are more aligned because of this notion of soft power being lesser than actual power in quotes. So I love this idea that she has an agenda, that she has political ambitions, that she has power, that she's able to harness behind the figure of the Queen and that happens to be her and she has this agenda.

But by the time we get to 1536, things are not necessarily going so well for her, are they? They're not. And I think as well it's interesting to look at exactly why because, of course, there is her tragic history of miscarriage and the fact that she's only given Henry this daughter, Elizabeth. Of course, that's all her fault, but let's not dwell on that. Also, Anne's religious views play a part in her downfall because she has antagonized a lot of the religious conservatives at court, men such as Stephen Gardner and in particular her own uncle actually, the Duke of Norfolk. But the really crucial moment comes when Anne falls out with Thomas Cromwell, who is Henry VIII's chief minister effectively and he's driving through the Reformation. He is the most powerful man

in England next to the king himself. Now they had been allies. They both want the same thing. They're both reformers, but they fall out over the dissolution of the monasteries and doesn't like to see all the proceeds from the monasteries going to the crown. She wants to fund charitable work. She's actually quite a social reformer far ahead of her time. She tells Cromwell she wants to see his head off his shoulders. That's how bad this disagreement is. I think she lives to regret those words because, of course, Cromwell turns against her. So then when he sees that the king wants rid of Anne, he makes sure he's going to get rid of her permanently. And I think perhaps Henry may have had in mind something like another annulment or sending Anne off to a nunnery. It's got to be more

than that from Cromwell's perspective. So Anne does play a part in her own downfall by antagonising the wrong person. going to hear a lot of this is America. No, no, you're all wrong. This is America. But on American History Hit, we're leaving that to the rest of them. Join me, Don Wildman, twice a week, where we look to the past to understand the United States of today with the help of some amazing guests. Let us introduce you to the founding fathers, guide you through the West Wing of the White House, and shelter you on the battlefields of years gone by to find out just how we got here. American History Hit, a podcast from History Hit.

Out of nowhere, there it was, sudden, shocking, terrifying. I have never in my life felt fear like that. Was this someone's idea of a sick prank or was it a horror movie come horribly alive? I'm thinking he killed him. I need to film the murder. I'm Keith Morrison, and this is Dateline's newest podcast,

The Man in the Black Mask. Listen for free each week or unlock new episodes early and enjoy ad-free listening by subscribing to Dateline Premium on Apple Podcast podcasts, Spotify, or datelinepremium.com. One of the reasons Henry wants to get rid of her at this point is not just his alliance with Cromwell, but because Jane Seymour has appeared on the scene as well. And this series of events leads to Anne's downfall. And that is what Maddie is about to tell us about next.

On the 2nd of May, 1536, the good citizens of London were going about their daily business when they heard the thunder of cannon from the Tower of London were going about their daily business when they heard the thunder of cannon from the Tower of London. They knew what it meant. Some high-ranking person had been swallowed into the tower's walls, now a prisoner of the King, and they could guess who. We're told that Anne's composure finally gave way when she arrived at the fortress. She sank to her knees and wailed that she was not guilty of her accusements.

In terror she turned to the constable of the tower and cried, Master Kingston, shall I die without justice? He assured her, The poorest subject the King hath had justice. At this Anne could only laugh. Right. So we have a picture unfolding here. But what exactly are the accusations against her, Tracy? Why does she find herself in this position? The accusations are inspired by Anne's enjoyment of the game of courtly love. She really, in

modern parlance, is a great flirt. She loves to flirt with the male courtes who flock around her and she always has. This is really how she helps to entice Henry VIII. She has great charisma and sort of self-confidence that draws men to her. So she flirts, but it doesn't go any further than that. I think we can safely say that Anne was not an adulteress, but she was in Cromwell's eyes because he was this great lawyer and he spied an opportunity with Anne's flirtatious behaviour and he concocted this case of adultery against her. Now he definitely was a man to make sure of his case because it involved five men and one of those men was Anne's own brother, George. And that seems to have been almost an afterthought.

That charge was added in slightly later. And Anne must have been just completely blindsided by this and probably laughed when she heard the charges because they're so ridiculous. This is not a woman lacking in self-control. She kept the King of England at bay for seven years. And there's been detailed analysis of the charges and there were 17 counts of adultery against Anne.

On 15 of those occasions, she wasn't even in the same place as the men she's accused of sleeping with. So I think we can discount the other two as well. She is not in my mind an adulteress, but this was a convenient way getting rid of her. It took a lot actually for Henry, I think, to agree to it because it didn't show him in a great light. Can he not satisfy his wife? She's going off and having all these affairs and it wasn't a role he liked to play.

Will Barron And of course, on top of all of this, we have another character who comes into play and that is Jane Seymour. Indeed. And this is history repeating itself really because Jane Seymour is a lady-in-waiting to Anne, just as Anne had been a lady-in-waiting to her predecessor, Catherine of Aragon. Jane Seymour is from quite an ancient family that has royal connections. She has two brothers who are on the rise at Henry's court. And on the face of it, she is Anne's direct opposite in pretty much every way. She's meek and mild. She looks completely different to Anne. And I think therein lies her appeal for Henry.

LARETTA And so she's taken to the tower, she's arrested and taken to the tower, and then she is put on trial. What did this mean, Tracy, in 1536, to have the Queen of England, the wife of the king, on trial? Is this an unusual situation? It feels completely remarkable to me. You're right. I mean, unprecedented. It's extraordinary to put a Queen of England on trial. There had been former queens who got into a bit of trouble. Eleanor of Aquitaine, springs to mind, was imprisoned by her husband Henry II. But to put a Queen on trial like this was utterly shocking, extraordinary, whatever other words you can think of, to describe this unprecedented event. I think there was probably quite a widely held view that Henry's just teaching Anna a lesson here. She hasn't conformed to what he expected of a Queen consort. It was attractive

in a mistress to have somebody who argues with you, who expresses her opinions very openly, it's very feisty. But then she continues like that as Queen because that's who she is and Henry doesn't like that. He doesn't like that she hasn't given him a son and that really is the crucial point. We should be in no doubt. Anne Boleyn would not have gone through any of this if she had had a living son. And as Maddie was hinting at there, this unusual situation that a Queen of England finds herself on trial and you're saying, you know, it's essentially unprecedented. But what does a trial for the Queen of England look like?

What form does that take? Are people surprised to see her on trial? They're very surprised. And Anne is treated slightly differently, certainly to the five men she's accused with, who are tried more publicly in Westminster, whereas Anne is tried inside the Tower of London, which itself is pretty unprecedented. They use the Great Hall in the tower, part of the old royal apartments apartments to host this extraordinary event. And it's a family affair.

Her uncle, the Duke of Norfolk, presides over this trial. And it's even said, although I think falsely, that Anne's own father is there and that he's on the jury. I think actually that didn't happen, but he certainly was considered as a member of the jury, which is just quite mind-boggling really. Anne in this trial, which is nothing really like a criminal trial today where the accused would have plenty of opportunity to defend themselves, Anne is told the charges and of course the crowd is very hostile to her. You can imagine

the sort of jeers as she walks into this courtroom and she has to listen in detail to all of these lurid trials. Then she is able to defend herself and apparently this really does show Anne's mettle because she does so brilliantly, so brilliantly, so unflappably, if that's even a word, that she turns the mood of the whole courtroom from one of hostility to sympathy. And what a woman to be able to do that, to walk into a crowded courtroom full of your enemies and actually win them over. Probably the trial doesn't even take very long and Anne does absolutely everything she can. Of course, it's not enough to say it was a foregone conclusion would be an understatement. We now know that

in fact, Henry had already sent for the executioner from Calais before the trial even took place. So there was only going to be one verdict. That was guilty and Anne was sentenced to burning or beheading at the King's pleasure. So she didn't even know at this point, is she going to be burnt at the stake? Which is bad enough being beheaded but burnt at the stake. So terrifying, but she never lost her composure. I think she is just a lover or hater. She is such a remarkable woman. I think it's a real testament, Tracy, to the way that you do talk about her, that she obviously was this incredibly charismatic and impressive woman. Particularly when you think about some of the other accusations made against her are accusations that she's maybe a witch or also that she's slept with her own brother,

George Boleyn, which is a remarkable accusation even for the time. You can just imagine the mood as you say, when she comes into the courtroom to the trial and everyone's thinking these things about her and she's able to maintain that composure and not only that but actually change people's minds and behave in a way that means they see her in a different light. Is there a sense in Anne's mind, do you think, in the days after the trial and after she's been found guilty? Does she believe, I suppose is what I'm asking, that Henry really will go through with this? Therein lies the key question. My own view is that she very strongly doesn't believe

Henry's going to go through with this. A number of reasons, I mean, top of the list is this hasn't happened before. You don't just go executing queens in England. But also Henry and Anne have always had this tempestuous relationship, furious rouse, passionate reconciliations. She probably thinks like the rest of England, certainly the rest of those at the Tower, that he's teaching her a lesson, albeit quite a brutal one. And there's something else as well, because the day after the trial, Anne receives a visitor at the tower and it is the Archbishop of Canterbury, Thomas Cranmer. So, like Cranwell was an ally of Anne, actually still is. He's probably the only person still speaking up for Anne. He tells Henry, look, I can't believe

that she's guilty, which is quite a brave thing to do. Anyway, he visits Anne to persuade her to agree to have the marriage annulled. Now, why on earth would she do that? She's got nothing to lose. She's been sentenced to die. Why give Henry an annulment? By the way, it's incredibly cynical of Henry to wait until after the trial to ask for an annulment. If he'd done that before the trial, he couldn't have had her tried for adultery because she wouldn't have been his true wife. So anyway, can we just have a shout out to Henry's cynical brutality there? But anyway, why would Anne agree? Well, I think actually what Henry had told Cranmer to do was to promise Anne her life. If you agree to this

annulment, your sentence will be commuted to banishment or you'll be in an nunnery or whatever it might be. Because she does say yes to having the marriage annulled, and that is huge because I would say this, my book is all about it, but Anne is very close to her daughter Elizabeth, and in having the marriage annulled, she's making her daughter a bastard. She's illegitimate. So it would have taken a lot to persuade her. I think judging that actually it's probably better if I'm at least alive for my daughter that she keeps her status. I think probably that's the thought process Anne went through. It does seem pretty certain that's what Cranmer had been charged to offer Anne. So again, this is another reason for Anne to think

Henry really isn't going to go through with this. It's all just been a big show. That's a really personal and important insight into the days after the trial, I think, Tracy. So it's often very easy to forget that space of time between this dramatic trial and then the conclusion that we know is coming that takes place on a scaffold and that had its own dramatic legacy. But there's all of this politicking happening in between. You described the annulment there, but the other thing that I just realised is that there were other people put on trial weren't there with her, her supposed lovers.

And what's happened to them in the interim? Yes, you're right. So as well, George Boleyn, I should have said, was tried separately to the other four in recognition of his status, but he's been swiftly condemned, as have the other four men. And the only one of those men to actually confess, if you like, was Mark Smeaton. He's the lowest status of all Anne's alleged lovers. He is her musician. And there is more than a hint that Thomas Cromwell had actually tortured Mark Smeaton, maybe not with his own hands, but ordered that tortured under interrogation so that Mark Smeaton confesses and that really then sets things in train. So yes, those men are swiftly condemned and they are scheduled to die ahead of Anne Boleyn. Whether or not she would have been witness to their executions, it's often said she would have had the view of Tower Green, not unless the geography of the tower has changed in 500 years because we know exactly where Anne was housed at the tower and that was in the Queen's apartments,

which sadly no longer stand. But for those of your listeners who know the tower, it's the sort of lawn next to the White Tower, the sort of central keep of the tower, near where the Ravens live, their little cages. And that's where the old Tudor apartments would have stood. And you absolutely cannot see the execution site on Tower Hill from there. But their headless bodies would have been brought back to the tower. And Anne would have certainly heard the roar of the crowds as those men were executed. Now, interestingly, men were executed. Now interestingly, of those five men, only one spoke out in Anne's defense from the scaffold. He was Henry Norris, probably the highest status really apart from George Boleyn, very much a favourite of Henry VIII until now. And he protested Anne's innocence from the scaffold. And for that, her daughter Elizabeth rewarded Henry Norris's son, who was also Henry, and promoted him for the rest of her reign. And she actually

says it's because he spoke out for my mother on the scaffold. In case you haven't heard, in the U.S. it's a presidential election year. We're going to hear a lot of, this is America. No, no, you're all wrong. This is America. But on American History Hit, we're leaving that to the rest of them. Join me, Don Wildman, twice a week, where we look to the past to understand the United States of today with the help of some amazing guests.

Let us introduce you to the Founding Fathers, guide you through the West Wing of the White House and shelter you on the battlefields of years gone by to find out just how we got here. American History Hit, a podcast from History Hit. Out of nowhere, there it was, sudden, shocking, terrifying. from history. Wow. Well, that's an interesting detail. And it's all the more tragic knowing that Anne herself is heading for the scaffold. Maddy, would you like to take us there? The King did not come. He did not come even though he'd taken the trouble to plan the

occasion in chilling detail. But then people in charge of other people's executions rarely do turn up on the day, and if they do, they most often watch from the sidelines, preferring others to undertake and bear witness to justice dispensed. Among the thousand or more Londoners who crowded into the tower on the morning of Friday 19th May 1536 was one such man, a French poet, sent by his patrons to record all he saw in a poem. In it, he recalls how, with the exception of her enemies whose hearts had hardened against the Queen already, none present could help but weep at the sight of Anne and

her steadfast courage as she delivered her final speech on the scaffold. He recalls too how she lowered her white collar and took off her hood to expose her pale neck beneath. After all, she did not want the executioner to miss, but for his aim to be true and her death clean. Shaking, but firm, Anne, according to the poet, fell to her knees and began to pray, one final performance before the end. The executioner, the poet noticed, seemed to hesitate, distasteful of the task before him, before taking up his sword and delivering a single blow to Anne's neck, severing it utterly. A silence.

Pause. severing it utterly. A silence, pause, then the ladies-in-waiting came forward to take away her body. And with that, the curtain falls on the story of Anne Boleyn. Tracey, you have told this history, recounted this history, examined this history numerous times and in numerous different ways through TV, on different podcasts, through public speaking in your role at Historic Royal Palaces. So you're so familiar with the details of this execution, this very, very famous execution. But I would love to know if there is one single detail that may not be a macro detail,

could be something quite small. Is there something that still gets you after all of these years of talking about this particular topic? Is there something that still pulls at the heartstrings when you talk about this particular moment? There is indeed. And I think that would have to be the fact that,

as several eyewitnesses testified, Anna, as she was making that final walk from her apartments to the scaffold on the other side of the white tower, kept looking over her shoulder, looking around her. And people wondered what she was looking at in the beginning. And then they realized she's looking for a messenger from the king carrying that pardon that he's promised her. And she never stops looking even as she mounts the steps to the

scaffold. And I think only then the reality dawns, he is going to go through with this. I am going to die. And that does get me every time, especially as we then read and Madi just described there from one of those present that she conducts herself with extraordinary composure. She doesn't crumble, she doesn't become hysterical, and she delivers this extraordinary speech to the thousand or so people present. And you might imagine that she's going to let rip against Henry now. I rather hoped she had in some respects, but she doesn't. She praises Henry as a just and a kind and a merciful prince,

but she adds this really cryptic line and she says, if any person shall meddle of my cause, I require them to judge the best. In other words, if anybody looks into what happened here today, in future, I hope they will reach the right conclusion as to whether justice was truly served. I think we've done some good meddling here today, actually. Absolutely. I love that she says something that cryptic. It's so classy as well. Instead of, as you say, letting rip at Henry instead, she just drops a little demure mic drop, shall we say, at the end, which is sort of a door. Does her death affect Henry? We know that he doesn't attend the execution and he's obviously chosen that she

is going to die weeks, if not months in advance. Does he ever regret it? How does he feel once she is dead? have discovered. Now, your listeners, this perhaps is a challenge. If anybody has found another occasion, please let me know. It's not over Anne Boleyn, however. He expresses regret over the death of two very faithful ministers, Thomas Wolsey, a natural death, and Thomas Cromwell, an executioner, and he realizes he made a big mistake there. However, Anne Boleyn seems to just move on in a very chilling way, we would say a psychopathic way actually. Compartmentalizes, that's one queen gone, he's already with Jane Seymour and he's betrothed to Jane the day after Anne's execution. This is when really Henry VIII can be seen as this stereotypical monster, often unfairly, but actually he is over the execution of Anne Boleyn because then he just wants to remove her from history. Airbrush her if you like. He takes down her emblems,

her initials from his palaces. Nobody's allowed to mention her. He doesn't want Elizabeth anywhere near him. She is sent away from court and is pretty much an outcast for the rest of Henry's reign. So he wants to pretend that Anne Boleyn has never existed. And if she's mentioned at all, it's as the great whore, the concubine. And it's a supreme irony, and actually delicious revenge for Anne, that it's their daughter who goes on to be the triumph of the Tudor dynasty. Henry had no idea and certainly wouldn't have planned it that way. But no, he showed no regret at the passing of this woman who's often hailed as the wife of the six whom he loved most. I question that. I think he was passionately attached to her, very

attracted to her. But I think Henry wanted what he couldn't have. And as soon as he married her, that passion cooled quite rapidly. So yeah, Henry doesn't come off well in all of this, I have to say. No, he doesn't, does he? And you've hinted at this, despite his idea to try and erase her, once Elizabeth comes to the throne, she starts to rehabilitate her mother's reputation and her image, I suppose. Just tell us a little bit about that, the ways in which she goes about that, but also, is it because of Elizabeth that we have such a tantalising link with Anne Boleyn today? CK Yeah, I think it's thanks to Elizabeth and her courtiers that we celebrate Anne Boleyn today. She is by far the most popular of the six. You just have to look at her social media following

to find that. The cult of Anne Boleyn starts in Elizabeth's reign, and Elizabeth does this very deliberately. Even before she comes to the throne, you can see this fascination with her late mother. She doesn't grow up believing the rumours she could have done, but she starts to express her loyalty to Anne. She wears Anne's jewellery. We have a record of that in a famous painting, The Family of Henry VIII, where Elizabeth is wearing her mother's A pendant when she's just a teenager. And then as queen, this is when she really gets going and she displays Anne's emblems, in particular the falcon, which is Anne's most famous emblem. I love that she has a life-size model of her mother at her coronation. This is a woman whose

name hasn't been mentioned for more than 20 years, and there Elizabeth is kind of celebrating her. And she promotes the Boleyns. If you look at the list of those who are serving in Elizabeth's court, they're all her mother's relatives. It's almost impossible to get a job at Elizabeth's court unless you have some link to Anne Boleyn.

And so really, I do think we owe a lot to Elizabeth. Certainly Anne Boleyn owes a lot to her daughter in this respect, in just how far she was able to rehabilitate her. But, as I mentioned earlier, not just in terms of her being wronged and being a remarkable woman, but also the religious aspect. This is when Elizabeth really makes sure her mother takes full credit for the Reformation. A real testament to her mother is the fact that Elizabeth chooses as her first Archbishop of Canterbury, Matthew Parker, who was Anne Boleyn's personal chaplain and who Anne appointed to look after her daughter after her death. I think it's such a poignant link there between mother and daughter.

LAREN It speaks as well, I suppose, to just the shock waves that resonate out from the moment of Anne's death and indeed from the relationship between Anne and Henry that there is this multi-generational effect and that Elizabeth decades later is still seething with pain, I suppose, from it and wanting to reinsert her mother. Tracy, this has been absolutely fascinating. If listeners want to read more of your work, if they want to hear you speak, go to your events, where are you going to be? Where can they consume your amazing knowledge? Well, that's a lovely way of putting it. I have a website, tracyborman.co.uk,

and that's got details of all my events coming up and my books as well. I would also just give a little bit of a plug to a couple of relevant pieces of television that I've done on this subject, because I did record a three-part series on the fall of Anne Boleyn, where I walked in the footsteps of Anne day by day. And goodness me, that gives you a different perspective and makes

you think it could so easily have gone another way. And I'm also, as we speak, mid-filming a special for Channel 5 on Anne Boleyn and Elizabeth I. So yeah, both of those programmes are on Channel 5 and you can catch them on My5, I believe. We will absolutely be doing that. I can't wait to see the result of that filming. If you've enjoyed this episode, you can reach back into our back catalogue. We have episodes on everything from ghosts who change the lore, to witches and witch trials, to monsters and demons and much more besides. Thank you so much for listening and we will catch you next time. Buried in the depths of the internet is the Kill List, a cache of chilling documents containing

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