After Dark: Myths, Misdeeds & the Paranormal - Georgian England's Notorious Dumpling Poisoner

Episode Date: September 15, 2025

Did she do it? Did serving girl Eliza Fenning poison the dumplings she served the Turner family? This is a true crime case from 1813 that brings together class tensions, sexism, the law. have a go hero forensics! It's easy to see why this trial gripped the nation. Maddy tells Anthony the story of Eliza Fenning and the poisoned dumplings.Edited by Tim Arstall. Produced by Freddy Chick. Senior Producer is Charlotte Long.You can now watch After Dark on Youtube! www.youtube.com/@afterdarkhistoryhitSign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries, with a new release every week and ad-free podcasts. Sign up at https://www.historyhit.com/subscribe.  You can take part in our listener survey here.All music from Epidemic Sounds.After Dark: Myths, Misdeeds & the Paranormal is a History Hit podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, After Dark listeners, it's me, Maddie, jumping in here to let you know that you have got us into the top six in the listeners' choice at the British Podcast Awards. There are so many amazing podcasts out there, and we're honoured to be included in the list. And to hear that so many of you enjoy listening to the show almost as much as we enjoy making it. Thank you so much to everyone who has voted. You are an After Dark VIP club member for life. but if you haven't, we would be eternally grateful. If you could spare just 60 seconds of your time and vote by following the link in the show notes,

please don't forget to confirm your vote in the email that you receive afterwards. Now, there's only a few days left to vote. And we promise that once those few days are over, we will stop pestering you about this. Right, on with the show. Hello, and welcome to After Dark. My name is Anthony.

And I'm Maddie. And you may have heard of the mushroom murder case recently. But today we are looking at the Dumpling murder case, a 19th century true crime mystery that divided England right down the centre. It's a terrifying place, the old Bailey as it stands at the start of the 19th century. The courtroom ceiling is held aloft by gigantic pillars. A crucifix and the royal coat of arms tower over the heads of the black-clad judges, and they in term loom over a pit of many. And they, in turn, loom over a pit of men in wigs, all with their heads bowed over their various pieces of paper.

Alone, in the middle of the room, dwarfed by it all, stands a young serving girl called Eliza Fenning. She is accused of attempted mass murder by poisoning. She faces death. But how has this happened to her, and how on earth has she ended up here? A picture swims before her mind's eye of dumplings. A laughable picture for us, maybe. but not for Eliza. For her, it sends cold chills down her spine to remember that pot of dumplings that she'd cooked only a few short weeks ago.

She'd been excited about making them, proud even, that things hadn't worked out quite the way she planned. Because of those dumplings, her whole life now hangs in the balance. I'm smiling because I'm going, because of those dumplings, her whole life hangs in the balance. I mean, this is quite serious, but I've never heard dumplings given such weight before. We are going to be talking about a servant who poisons. potentially poisons their master.

We love a servant poisoning story. Well, exactly. We've seen it before, right? So we had Misha Ewan, who was talking about poisoning in the Tower of London. We also had Besson Adams talking about the servants' revenge. So go and listen to those. But this time, it's slightly different because we have been tasked with a question. And that question is, did Eliza do it? Was anybody even poisoned, or has this been a gross miscarriage of justice?

And if there's anything I like to do, it's act a judge. So I am very, very excited about... Anthony has thoughts and opinions are plenty. I'm going to say right off the back that I don't know if she's guilty or not. I have been sitting with a story in preparation for today's episode. And I was rereading the script on the tube and the way into the studio this morning. I really don't know. And do you know what?

I was convinced reading it on the commute that you will have a very strong opinion. And I know which way you're going to go, I think. Okay, well, let's see. let's get into the, because I'm not 100% sure how I'm going to go just yet. Before we actually get started, I just want to caveat this, right? This has happened on AfterDark before. I have had a dicky tummy for the last few days and this setting into this, I am, everything's fine. So let's go into it and see. Can I say the absolute drama of Anthony Delaney? I've had a dicky tummy for three whole months. That's called pregnancy. This is just called being precious. So, you know, more attention my way, please.

Poor Anthony. Right. Give me an overview of what's going on at this. So we're in 1815, yes? Correct. Well done. Yes, we are. We're in London.

It's March 1815. And the drama is taking place predominantly in House on Chancery Lane, number 68. And this is a street that's famously at the heart of London's legal district. The Turner family live there. And they become violently unwell, much like Anthony this week. And Maddie for three months prior. Absolutely. I've just taken up where you've left off.

Great. We're nothing if not a team. Yes. They become unwell after eating dumplings that have been made by the family servant, Eliza Fenning. The important thing to remember, though, is nobody actually dies. Which begs the question, and I'm sure there is reason why on earth we hear, but we'll get to that. So we have Eliza living with the Turner's, so she's the servant. Yeah, we do.

And she's going to be accused of attempted murder of the entire family when they become ill. And the trial, we're going to look very deeply at the trial, because the trial. because the trial and the aftermath become hugely problematic and society is really stripped down the middle. We are going to see in this moment there's huge class tensions across Britain and this comes at a really delicate moment. So we have to decide if Eliza's done it, if she's guilty, but also to put this case in particular into the context,

it's a very specific context in which this happens. And you mentioned there about having to have this conversation about what is happening legally, what has happened in the details of this case. As far as I understand, these were conversations that were being had in 1815 as well. So this is the long, ongoing conversation in many ways. Yeah, we are having the same conversation that people themselves were having in 1815. To give you a little bit of the context to understand when this story is taking place, the way that you can frame this is that the attempted murder, so called,

and the trial take place either side of. The Battle of Waterloo, who ever heard of it? Abba. Waterloo, yes. That's all you need to know. I don't care about any of the rest of it. I'm so sick of hearing about military history all the time. Oh, so boring.

Like, whatever. Like, if you, it's fine. It's Abba, just Abba. This is when Abba released Waterloo. The Battle of Waterloo has no impact on world history. Like, we don't need to know about it. I'm so bored of it. So the attempted murder and the trial happened in spring, 1815, just before the battle.

And the ending of this story. When we get to, it happens in July, so just after the battle. Now, why is the Battle of Waterloo important despite what you say and say? Okay, no, tell me, tell me. I'm just being brattie. It is important because soldiers who have fought in a battle are now returning to Britain. A lot of them are injured. They have left the army. They are becoming part of the working poor if they are physically able to work. So there's this influx of people into the working classes.

Now, class tension, as we've said, is already rife in this period. the Industrial Revolution, which has begun 50 years ago, 60 years ago at this point. It's growing all the time in industrial places like Leeds, for example, or Manchester. The population of those towns is growing and growing and growing all the time. We've heard this in previous episodes when we did the Luddites, for example. People who have previously lived in the countryside and worked in little cottage industries are now migrating to towns. So they're leaving behind work that they would be doing in the countryside,

including farming, creating stuff for the food supply. And now they're going to work in factories. And that combined with famine, with poor crop yield, means that there are food shortages. So there are food riots all across the north of England. And I think some of the West Country as well, there are protests about the costs of food, there's resentment, there's bad wages, bad working conditions

that people are up against. In 1819, we're going to get the Peterloo massacre leading into the 1820s and 30s, we've got the Chartist movement, right? So there is not only tension in terms of class structure, but also push back against those people in charge. Throughout the 1790s in Britain, we've had incredible tension and worrying about revolution in Britain. So this is a tense time is what I'm trying to say.

So this is the context of what's going on. Now let's talk about, this is genuinely who I am kind of fascinated about. So it's Eliza Fenning. Tell me a little bit more about her. Apart from her status as a servant, what do we actually know about her? So we know a reasonable amount, actually. Because of the trial, I'm assuming.

Because of the trial, this is always the way, isn't it? So she's a 22-year-old domestic servant in 1815. She is the daughter of a journeyman printer. So respectable working class, working in the city. She is literate, according to the trial records, which I suppose would domestic servants have had some level of literacy? By this point, yeah. I'm thinking she works as a cook in this household.

She couldn't need to read recipes, write orders, that kind of thing. So maybe she's not sitting down and reading. Yeah, exactly. She's maybe not sitting down and reading the full works of Shakespeare. Who's got the time for that? Neither of that. But, yes, she is able to read and write. Now, she also, as we'll hear later on,

has a flood of support that rushes to her when she's accused of this crime. And people come out to give positive references and character references, to say that she is a really good person and trustworthy person. So that is, it means quite a lot of information about someone who is a servant in a household in this moment. She's also one of ten children. Nine of her siblings die in infancy. She's the only surviving child of her parents. Bear that in mind as well because I think that is so poignant when we hear at the end of the story.

Interestingly, she's also born in the West Indies. So her father was stationed out in the West Indies as an NCO, a non-commissioned officer in the British Army. And her mom, we love an Irish person creeping in here. Finally, I care. He breathes us sirefully. So, yeah, her mother was from County Cork. So I think that's a fascinating backstory and one that speaks to, you know, we've already have the Battle of Waterloo, we've got these hints of not only industrialisation in Britain,

but this big empire, this global warfare going on with the French. And now we have Eliza's story, even though her story is so tiny and taking place in this one house in Chancery Lane, actually she speaks to this much bigger British Empire as well. And we have this image, which we won't dwell too long on, but it's her after she's been arrested for this spoiler she gets rested and she's in a cell and she's looking very evangelical there although it's a strange depiction can you imagine why i'm saying that i feel like i want you to say it rather than me saying it why do you think i'm saying this is a strange depiction she is looking quite evangelical and i think this speaks again to this tension some people were on her side some people

weren't right after she's accused so she's in a prison cell and there's these like beams of light coming through the prison bars and falling on her face she's reading the bible and looking off into the distance of the room quite wistfully. But the depiction of her person, I think, is very, very interesting. We've talked before about the depiction of femininity. Okay. We're on the same page. Yeah, in terms of murder, murderous women. She, I mean, look. I just didn't want to be the one to say it. Her boobs have been put on with an ice cream scoop. Right? I was like, now look, my bread is buttered on the other side. I'm not interested in this. But that is a busty image of an woman.

in 1815. Yeah, and a kind of not very naturalistic they're like, they're there they're very much there. They're very present. I will also say, and I don't know if you agree with this, but we've talked as well before. I'm just thinking about the fact that her mother is Irish, and I don't know how much that leans into the press at the time, but we've talked before about

the depiction of Irish people, especially Irish criminals, or people accused of crimes, as having quite Irish coded faces. Yes. And I think that's what I'm seeing. here as well. Her face looks quite masculine. Yes, and that kind of wideness that you get in terms of depictions of Irish people in this moment. Yeah. There's a lot of sort of contemporary coding going on, I think, and a lot of different versions of her that are being represented, right? She's so many different things and so many different people. Even in this one image, you can say that.

Absolutely. Let's talk very quickly then about who's in the house. So we have Eliza, well, she's in the house, but who are the people that she's serving? Okay, so we have the head of the household, there's some great names in this family. The head of the household is called Robert Gregson Turner. He's a law stationer. Don't forget, we're in the legal district here in London. So he literally provides stationary to legal firms, but he's also involved in drafting contracts, right. He's doing quite well for himself then. Yes, very, very respectable. We also have his wife, Charlotte. Don't know any more information about her other than her name. We then have Robert Turner Jr., the son, of course, who is around about 17 or 18 years old at this time.

We then have Robert's father, who is called Haldabart, and some of the same. And some, Sometimes Orlibar Turner. Oh, wow. That's a name. I need to know what the origin of these names are. They're incredible. We also have some other servants, right? So we have Sarah Pia, who is a domestic servant in the household.

I'm guessing she's maybe like this sort of maid who's doing, yeah, made of all work kind of thing. We also have Robert Gadsden, who, like Robert Jr. is 17 or 18 years old, but he's apprenticed to Robert Sr., the father. And then we have Eliza, who's hired as a cook. And immediately, well, almost immediately. she doesn't quite fit into the family. There are some tensions that emerge. Okay, you're talking about these tensions and these tensions are going to become very important

as this case goes on. I would almost hazard to say too important because it really is what starts to make this feel very personal. But tell us a little bit about the early tensions that are in the house. Yes, so much is made of this. And you have to remember that in an 18th century household and I know we're in the 19th century here, but we're in the long 18th century. In a Georgian household.

In a Georgian household. The relationship between masters and servants is so intimate. You're living in the same space. And I think because of period dramas, we imagine a great formality at all times and a separateness. And of course, that's not necessarily the reality, right? You would... Especially if you're not in a country house. Exactly.

If you are in a London townhouse that is reasonably sized but not huge, you are living cheap by jowl with people who are not your social class. if you're the employer, you have an expectation of their behaviour, and if they don't meet that, you're going to get frustrated. But equally, the servants are going to see sides of you that you do not present outside of that house. So there's always room for tension. And I think you would be hard-pressed to find a house in London in this period that didn't have tension between masters and servants. And it's one of those reasons why they were referred to as family. When heads of households referred to their family unit in this time period, they included

servants. And I always think that's really fascinating. They did not have the same concept of the household family that we have today because of that. It's who is under your roof. Who is under your roof, basically. And so that's a really important and intimate relationship, despite social classes, despite not having been born into that family. It's intense. And also that as a servant, you are expected to behave in a way that respects and brings

credit to that family. And if you don't, you are not playing as a team member, right? So we have testimony from Eliza's trial at the old Bailey from Charlotte Turner, who is the wife of Robert. She's the mistress of the household. And I want you to read her words because I think this is a fascinating moment that gives an insight into the household and how some of those maybe transgressive behaviours might be observed and spied by that kind of relationship between master and servant. This is from the testimony of the eventual trial that we will come to, but this foregrounds that. So Charlotte says, I had occasion to reprove her, for I observed her one night, go into the young men's room partially.

undressed. It was very indecent of her to go into the young men's room, thus undressed. We are really going for this undressed thing, aren't we? There were two young men about 17 or 18 years old. I reproved her, again, this word reproved and undressed is coming up again and again. I reproved her severely next morning for her conduct. For the remaining month, I observed that she failed in the respect that she before paid me and appeared extremely sullen. And a fortnight before the poisoning, she requested me to let her make some yeast dumplings, professing herself to be a capital hand. That request was frequently repeated. Hmm. Interesting. Yeah. So there's a besmirchment of Eliza's character already. She says she's just going to get a candle from the boys' room.

Interesting, the boys being the apprentice and the son of the household sharing the same room. So it tells you this isn't necessarily a very high class household. You know, these two boys are a different social class. are sharing a space together. But either way, Eliza has no business going into their room. Undressed here, presumably, stripped down to nightwear. Yeah, I was going to say. She's not like walking around no bra and knickers. No.

Don't come at me and tell me there's no bra and knickers in 1815, please. What do you wear to bed? I feel like you have formal stripy pyjamas done up to the top. I have a Victoria night shirt. Of course you do. I don't wear it in bed, but I wear it of an evening. Because I don't like to be constrained in beds too much. But this is a detail I never thought I'd be sharing on this podcast.

Do you have a little wee, really winky nightcap as well? But I like to be quite like free. Do you like the breeze? And but also up here rather than concentrating too far down. And it's Victoria. Now I'm sure to answer your question and let's stop it there. Let's not go any further down that road. I do genuinely have that though.

I will be requesting pictures after this. Okay, so what we have to establish now is, is this moment. between Eliza and Charlotte, when a Charlotte is accusing Eliza of inappropriately dressing going into the boys' room at night, maybe being some sort of suggestion of sexual impropriety taking place. Is that enough of a motive? Do you want me to answer that right now? What are your thoughts at this second? Absolutely not. Okay. I mean, servants are being told off all the time. Yeah. Like, that wouldn't be, you're like, well, now I'm going to have to kill them. Also, by Charlotte's own admission. And this, I suppose, comes down to whether you think she's going to poison the dumplings and we're

get to that in a minute. But Eliza's reaction, yes, she's a bit stroppy. She says she's sullen afterwards. I mean, you would be a bit put out if your mistress was like flut-shaming you for walking around in your pyjamas. But she then tries to make things better. We're saying, I'll cook you a really nice meal. I'm really good at dumplings. Can I make dumplings? Yeah. Yeah. That's quite sweet actually. Well, depending on how you're looking at us. But yeah. Is she just trying to make up for that tension? Who knows? Okay. So what we do know is that on the 21st of March 1815, Eliza makes these dumplings. And she's not just feeding people just dumplings, by the way.

This is such a stodgy meal. Beef steak pie, dumplings and potatoes. That had a lot of carbohydrates. I feel like full just listening to that. No, thank you. I love a dumpling. I don't mind them. We're not talking about like Chinese dumplings here.

We're talking about like flour and fat. Sue it or whatever is nice. Yeah. I don't love stew, so therefore I don't love them. See, as an autumnal queen. No, well, I know. I should like it. Chicken pie, yes.

This is my season that we're coming into. So she makes this meal alone in the kitchen. But that's not unusual. She's the cook. Of course she's alone in the kitchen. That's fine. She then serves the meal to the family. And importantly, Eliza eats some of it herself.

Yeah. What else she's going to do? Exactly. Not sat with the family, of course. It would be suspicious if she didn't. Yes. But she's eating it. So therefore, I'm not suspicious at this point.

Now, the next piece of testimony that we have from the trial comes from Robert Turner, the head of the household. And he talks about the effect. of this food is instantaneous. So this is what Robert Turner says at the old Bailey in 1815. This is his testimony. I was taken ill myself in less than three minutes. Bloody hell.

The effect was so violent that I had hardly time to get to the yard before my dinner came up. Sexy. I never experienced anything before like it for violence. All right, Robert. Shall I need to know everything? I was terribly irritated. It was not more than a quarter of an hour until my apprentice, Roger Gadsol, was taken very ill in a similar way to myself.

So Robert, it's no sooner down than it's back up. Essentially. Yes, so it's pretty instantaneous. And then also Roger the apprentice as well. Does that mean that it's poisoned food? Maybe they all just have a stomach bug. She could be a shit cook. She might be a shit cook because this is the early 19th century.

I've conceded. It's the Georgian period. Food hygiene is not what it was. She's cooking something here with meat. She's making these dumplings with fat, there's milk involved. There's all these ingredients that any number of those could be off in some way. I will admit, it's a pretty immediate reaction from Robert. For gone off food or gone off ingredient, you would imagine it would take a little bit longer.

But like I said, maybe they're just all ill anyway and they sit down to eat and that triggers them to sit because it's a heavy study. Exactly, yeah, yeah. So the jury's still out for me. Anyway, they all become ill. Yes. Including Eliza, importantly. but nobody dies and this is what you were saying earlier right nobody it's really important to remember in this case that goes to trial that nobody is dead nobody is dead nobody is dead all that's happened is some vomiting yeah and suddenly the servants are the old bailey so how on earth do we get there okay so the grandfather haldebart i'm not trusting him with anything but go on great villain name well not because of his name because of his age oh wow it's like the granddad is just going i think that she's killed you're like like Come on.

That hussy who walks out of her in her pajamas. Yeah. So he starts to be suspicious. Now, he does notice that the knives and forks they ate with have blackened. They are silver knives and forks and silver does blacken if arsenic is present. But is it just that one of the servants hasn't polished him? They wouldn't be black, though, would they if they haven't been polished properly? I mean, no.

No. It's not the most convenient information. Okay. Hold on now. Okay. So he actually keeps, and I think this is suspicious, he keeps arsenic in his office. Who does? Granddad.

The granddad. And he, yeah, and he notices it's missing. So, mm. Right. But he only notices after everybody's been sick. Is granddad sick? Yeah, everyone's sick. Everyone.

Yeah, yeah. So we have, we have his words now from the trial, if you'd like to read these. This to me becomes really interesting because it's kind of, it feels like early forensics. And we've talked about early forensics a lot on this program. There's a kind of detective work that's going on here. but I do think that there are holes in it potentially. Okay. So this is his, this is Grandad's testimony.

This is Grandad Haldobart's testimony. I had suspicion of arsenic. I made a search the next morning. I found a brown dish or a pan that the dumplings had been mixed in. With the leavings of the dumplings in it, I put some water into the pan and stirred it up with a spoon. God, he's going to great depths here. With a view to form a liquid of the hole,

I found upon the pan being set down for half a minute, upon my taking it up slowly and in a slanting direction I discovered a white powder at the bottom I showed it to several persons in the house I kept it in my custody

and showed it to Mr. Marshall when he came which I'm presuming is some kind of a law enforcementy person or something We'll get to him in a second No person had access to it well that's not entirely true

because he had access to it and every person he showed it to I do think Haldebart has ever set foot in the kitchen before this moment he's like I stirred it in a slanting direction.

It's like oddly specific in there. I'm suspicious of Grandad. Yeah, exactly. Also, if everyone's been ill, all of the implements in the kitchen that we used to make this have just been sat there for anyone to tamper with. I mean, I'm not saying Eliza didn't do it, but I don't think this would necessarily stand up in court today. I think like that blackening of the silverware is interesting.

Okay, you have me thinking there. I don't know what this man is doing. that like whatever performance he's decided to carry out as his one-man show for the Edinburgh fringe fine, that's great but it is elaborate

and I don't understand what's going on but the knives and forks are weird that that's gone black Okay so Mr. Marshall who has mentioned is test of the doctor

he is the family doctor he comes he's called he does his own tests and again we're like hours if not a day or so after this has happened now he claims that he recovers

half a teaspoon of arsenic from the leftovers is half a teaspoon worth, not literally something he can scoop up. Yes. Granddad's put this in. I don't know why he has, but granddad's put this in. Because this is not, this doesn't seem. They'd all be dead.

They would all, all be dead. Now, Eliza says the dumplings were not to blame because that's her speciality, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. She doesn't want her dumpling rep to be besmirched. Instead, she says it's the milk that went into the sauce. That's the issue. She says, it was bad milk. I don't know what happened, but it's made a bit.

everyone's sick. But this is kind of what I'm saying. This seems like the more likely version, like often go for the most likely thing, right? Like, what's most likely to have happened to here? Well, that sounds most likely. If the milk was off to normal people who haven't got a skewed sense of smell, surely that would instantly make you go, disgusting. There's a world in which the milk was just rank. They consumed it and instantly thought, oh God. Yes, true. It was an instant reflux thing, at least for dad or whatever's name is Robert. But obviously, Eliza has no power in this household. She's the lowest common denominator as the cook. She's accused of

murder. There's the evidence that there was arsenic in the house. And according to the very respectable family doctor and the grandfather, that was in the food, even though it's a completely unreasonable amount to find. And by the way, arsenic being in this household not unusual at this time. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Also, there's, you know, she's been going in the boys' bedroom. She has. She's pretty dodgy. That equals murder. It's obviously a crime that's worth killing someone over. So she is arrested and she goes to trial at the old Bailey. That's crazy. That is wild. Land a Viking longship on island shores.

Scramble over the dunes of ancient Egypt. and avoid the Poisoners' Cup in Renaissance Florence. Each week on Echoes of History, we uncover the epic stories that inspire Assassin's Creed. We're stepping into Feudal Japan in our special series Chasing Shadows, where samurai warlords and Shinobi spies teach us the tactics and skills needed, not only to survive, but to conquer. Whether you're preparing for Assassin's Creed Shadows or fascinated by history and great stories,

Listen to Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hits. There are new episodes every week. You had no one to speak up on your behalf in this moment. If you were accused of something like this, then, you know, or you were accused of stealing something. something or of sexual impropriety in a household, that would be you out on the street. You don't get a second chance. And in Eliza's case, this is going to take her potentially all the way to the gallows.

It's incredibly serious. And I do feel sorry for her in this moment. Yeah, I do. I mean, you're going to the, I mean, she will never have imagined herself being in the old Bailey. Like, this is a place that she would even be able to imagine, let alone expect to find herself. This is where she is. She, we know from previous episodes, that there is no defence offered here.

So by this time, there could have been. So by the time you get into the early 19th century, there were such things as lawyers that would be appearing in court for you. Not for people like Eliza. She's not availing of that. Yeah, and exactly said the whole trial hinges on oral testimony, right? Pro and against her in this situation. Most of the oral testimony is coming from her employers

who all believe that she has poisoned them. Trying to kill them, yeah. And, you know, this is a moment when 200 plus crimes can end in the death penalty. This is the, you know, the bloody code is still very much in existence. So this is a really serious moment. It's not looking good for her at all. However, the case brings huge public attention. And the majority of the working class public believe Eliza is innocent.

They just can't see a world in which she's done this. And, you know, thinking back to those class tensions that are taking place, there's that whole idea of pushing back against the people in charge and asserting yourself as a working class person like never before. and the sort of resentment about that oppression and what that looks like and what your future might look like. Yeah, they know firsthand what it's like to occupy that space in those households and how they're treated and how they're viewed and how they're a lot of the time viewed with suspicion. And that having these servants is a sign of your place in society, but it also then injects this on ease into your very household where you're supposed to feel most at ease. And it really looks like this is part of that tension unraveling right before everybody's eyes at the old.

daily. Yeah, exactly. And, you know, from the other perspective, if you are an employer of servants in your household, we always talk about this when we've done these episodes on servants who commit crimes. There is someone in your house who might murder you. Yeah. But that's pretty frightening. So this captures

the attention of middling people as well for the exact opposite reason that it does the working class people. So what happens now? And I think this is just so shocking, but unfortunately so familiar to us today, is that the Turner's really start this smear campaign, both within and beyond the trial itself, right?

So we've already heard about Eliza potentially going into the boy's bedroom, the son of the household and the apprentice. We now hear Robert Jr., the son in that room, talking about how Eliza came in maybe more than once. She was inappropriately dressed. In some versions, she's naked. She's exposing herself to the boys. She's getting worse and worse.

She's being sexually suggestive with them. So they are absolutely shaming her. Yeah, smearing her name, trying to spread this idea that she's kind of, you know, and thinking back to the depiction of her femininity, right, she's kind of the absolute opposite of an ideal female in this moment. She's not polite. She's not respectable. She's sort of voracious in her sexual appetites and possibly dangerous.

I mean, and you say shaming her. Here's the thing. If she did go in looking for a candle, you know, okay, she might have been wearing a nightdress or whatever. That's not unheard of. People are doing that. You know, that's not a weird, weird thing to do. Okay, Charlotte may not approve of it, but it's not the worst thing that could possibly happen morally in the house. There are so many different versions of this. They're right. Like, there's a version in which potentially Eliza is having a consensual sexual relationship with one of the boys potentially. And, you know, fine, good luck to her. There's a world in which it is not consensual. And we don't know, you know, Eliza has no power in that household. Let's not forget. And there are two boys who are 17, 18 years old with more power. Certainly Robert Jr. knows the sun. We don't know what's happening there. We don't know she's being coerced into

something. Maybe she never set foot in their bedroom. Maybe this is all lies. Invented in the same way that to me at least appears the arsenic is either planted or invented. I mean, it sounds like it's a conspiracy theorist, but it's all very, very strange. But one of the things which I suppose is good at least, and we are left with a little bit, is that Eliza does offer a defence of herself to a certain extent. I mean, it's good in that she says her truth. She speaks her truth, whatever that is, whether we believe it or not. She says, you know, she ate the food as well, that she became sick, but also that she

warned Robert, the son, not to eat the food because the rest of the family became sick. So he actually didn't get sick. Robert's out there saying, she's horny. She keeps coming into my bedroom. And she was like, Robert, don't eat this. I'm saving you. Everyone else is sick. Don't get poorly.

So screw Robert, first of all. Now, this is genuinely tragic. So think back to the fact that Eliza is one of ten siblings, but nine of them died. You know, she's born out in the West Indies and her parents eventually make it back to Britain with her, this one surviving child. Her parents are present at the trial. They're called Elizabeth and William. And William, this honestly breaks my heart. He submits a written statement about his daughter's character saying,

when a good person she is that should never do this. and the court refused to accept presumably because of his social class and standing him because let's be honest they've already made up their mind about her Yeah but they don't refuse to hear bloody random Roberts saying that

she's wanton or whatever Exactly And Elizabeth even says This is the mother of Eliza says That Eliza she confirms Eliza became ill after eating the dumplings So they're trying so hard To protect their daughter

They're offering all this evidence They're saying she's a great person The one person that we haven't heard from much, though, is Eliza. And we do have her words from the trial. And this is what she says at the old Bailey when she gets her moment to stand up. She says, I am innocent of the crime. I am not guilty. I wouldn't hurt a hair on anyone's head in a family, much less poison their food.

Do we believe her? It's hard, isn't it? Because, I mean, that's what you'd expect her to say. But it doesn't mean it's any less true. I mean, honestly, the way the family have behaved, good luck to her if she did poison them at this point. Yeah. I don't think that she did. I don't think that's a great account of oneself at the trial, but what else can she do?

She is very constrained by the ways in which these trials come about. Presumably, she's not given that much time to speak. No, I mean, all of this will have been over in 30 minutes, total. You would need to stand and be like, it's not me, I didn't do it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it needs to be really straightforward. Exactly. So she does what she needs to do, but I just don't see it. I just don't see that it's there.

The only thing, and this is fanciful, so therefore I don't even think this is real. The only thing that's in my head is, if there was something going on between her and the sun, and she then gives all the rest of the family this poison, they all die, he doesn't. And she's like, oh, you don't eat that. Again, it seems very fanciful. It's very period drama-coded. So therefore it feels like it's not real. But I'm just putting it out there as a potential option where...

But don't forget she gets ill herself. She says she gets ill herself. Or her parents, who are not there, say she gets ill. herself again presumably they see her in the days afterwards maybe maybe either way i think i'm still team eliza but i'm just saying for the sake of argument there is a world in which that's a story there's no it's not black and white here no i do think there is a gray area but i think the way that she's treated and it's so tied to her social class her lack of power the fact she's a woman you know her sexuality all of these things yeah no i still i don't see i think the way this is unfolding is

ridiculous yeah yeah definitely and it does unfortunately unfold in the worst way possible So the judge, who is known as a hanging judge, so someone who loves a little bit of hanging, is called John Sylvester. Also famously misogynistic, biased against women. Love that for him. He says the worst. He condemns her to death.

And there are some suggestions in some of the commentary around this case that he actually colludes with the doctor, Dr. Marshall, to emphasise that evidence of the arsenic being there more so than is maybe relevant or truthful. So, you know, interesting. But, I mean, Eliza never stood a chance anyway. So here are the judge's words. He says that these persons were poisoned appears certain.

I think, like, first of all, the bat, no. Each of these persons ate of the dumplings and were all more or less affected. More or less affected, doing a lot of heavy lifting there, I think. But also not all, because Robert wasn't. Robert Jr. Exactly. And also, nobody died. The poisonous ingredient was in the dough alone. It was observed that the dough appeared dark and was heavy and, in fact, did never rise. Well, first of all, dumplings don't really, like, they're stodgy, they're not, it's not puff pastry guys.

Like, are these men who are like, never been in a kitchen, never made anything? And they're like, suddenly I'm an expert on dumplings. Is this master chef? Like, what's coming on here? Awful. The jury deliberates for 30 minutes, and they come back, and inevitably, they say that she's guilty. And she is sent to the gallows. She's hanged on the 26th of July at Newgate Prison. Land a Viking long ship on island shores, scramble over the dunes of ancient Egypt and avoid the Poisoners' Cup in Renaissance Florence.

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This is written in a pamphlet that is all about Eliza, you know, a classic early 19th century pamphlet that tells the story from birth to death of a criminal, along with the picture that we discussed earlier. that's from the same pamphlet. So William Hone absolutely has skin in the game here, like he's wanting to sell copy. But do you mind reading the words? Because I think it gives a sense of this event. So William says, I got into an immense crowd that carried me along with them against my will. At length, I found myself under the gallows where Eliza Fenning was to be hanged. I had the greatest horror of witnessing an execution and of this particular execution, a young girl of whose guilt I had grave doubts, but I could not help myself. I was closely wedged in. She was

brought out. I saw nothing, but I heard all. I heard her protesting her innocence. I heard the prayer. I could hear no more. I stopped my ears and knew nothing else till I found myself in the dispersing crowd and far from that dreadful spot. Now come on, William. William's getting paid per word. Calm yourself down. You went to see someone getting hanged. Like, let's not try and. Also classic 19th century man of like, I didn't want to see the execution of this really cute young girl, but I was forced along and everyone else was going and I thought I should probably go for moral reasons. And as a legitimate journalist, I got dragged along against my will. I was just, I popped out for some milk and I just got along to this. So we have her death

in this moment where she's supposedly protesting her innocence. I mean, that's again, not unusual. People get up on gallows and, you know, say, I didn't do this, well, blah. I'm going to God, you know, all that stuff is kind of. what you would expect. Again, tragedy creeps in, though, because we know from our various episodes on body snatching that the law at this time was that if you were an executed murderer, and she's executed for attempted murder.

So I assume her body would be legitimate as going to the anatomist slab, I guess. To prevent this, her parents, her parents who've lost now their 10th child pay, They have to borrow 14 shillings and sixpence to pay the executioner to get her body back. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just find that so sad. They have a wake at their house, which lasts five days. Oh, well.

And even in death, the crowds are so interested in this case that thousands come to see her. So she's becoming kind of working class martyr. She's absolutely a martyr. Yes, she's a martyr for the mob, essentially. And she becomes this figure of, you know, the oppression of the upper classes. the police force at the time police I'm using that term as anachronistic but the authorities at the time try and

stop the crowds from getting in to see the body that's how much power she has now the funeral happens after these five days of the wake 10,000 people turn up including women from all across the city who wear white whoa we love a bit of drama

good I like that I mean this is cinematic here's your period drama I think this is incredible it's debated for years and years and years afterwards is it an example of a miscarriage of justice and class prejudice or did she get what she deserved in the context of the legal system at the time was justice served because she had tried to kill the family i don't think she did it i feel that she didn't but are we getting sucked into the working class propaganda of this moment in this wider movement of feeling hard done by that resentment the resistance maybe i'll tell you what did it for me what made me go i don't know what's going on here, but it's not that. It's that granddad's testimony here. Like, I held this thing at a 45 degree angle to the sun, which was coming in at a 40. And I was like, I blew across it twice. Yeah. Like, what are you talking about? You fool. Like, stop it. Stop being so extra. Like,

it's too much. It's made me a little bit angry, actually. Yeah. And I think as well, this case has this really intimate personal setting and then it has this kind of wider societal setting. And we don't really know a lot about the people involved in the case beyond this. point. So what we do know is that in 1829, so just over a decade later, Eliza's father is described as being heartbroken, still living in London. But he's absolutely broken by this, as you can imagine the mother is as well, Elizabeth. The Turner's, though, the Turner family, who are poisoned or so-called disappear from public view. But we do know that the grandpa, Haldebart, is declared bankrupt in 1825. Stop, granddad comes back. Okay. And he's declared back. How old was he

in 1815, that he's bankrupt by 1825. So, like, till 10 years later, he's not that much of granddad. People were having babies young in this moment. So he wasn't that old in 1815 then. Yeah. Okay, interesting. I mean, declare bankrupt. I don't wish the man ill, but, like, I don't know.

It's just all a bit weird, isn't it? And it's weird that we know a bit about him. And he, for me, is the sticking point. I'm just like, all right, you're still lingering around there. Yeah. And it just then it begs the question, like, what level of control had he over the house? as the most senior male. You would imagine that control may have passed to his son or whatever, but he just never

know. Clearly, his words had an effect in the case. They shaped the direction that it took very, very quickly. I think I had a picture of a much, much older doddery old man in my head, but now that you're saying 10 years later, he has to be declared bankrupt. That means he probably wasn't like that at all. So I don't know. He's suspicious for me in this.

I don't know why. Why would he would frame her, but like... Bigs question as well, what was the financial impact? on that family, that household, post-trial. Were they pushed out of their house? Did they lose their job? Yeah, what was the impact on that going? Probably unlikely.

Yeah, yeah. It just seems like a strange detail, the bankruptcy. Yeah, especially when we know so little that that's the detail that does survive. Yeah. It's like, hmm. Yeah. So what do you think? Did Eliza do it or not?

Let us know. I was like, who are you talking to? The camera. Okay. She's talking. We're currently making a podcast. Yeah. But it's also on YouTube.

Yeah. Yeah. she looked over there and I went there's nobody over there she's lost the run of herself no it's a camera do you want to wrap up yeah I will because I feel like

like I should because I just let you carry the weight of this one because I lost so apologies for and are you feeling less sick or more sick actually I really do my tummy is cramping now not because of this I just think it's where we are in the day look it's fine I only have another six months of this

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