After Dark: Myths, Misdeeds & the Paranormal - Ireland's First Witch: Medieval Murderer? (Part 1)

Episode Date: December 2, 2024

(Part 1/2) 700 years ago, in 1324, the first person to be executed for witchcraft in Ireland died in Kilkenny. This is the story of a successful business woman called Alice Kyteler, her servant Petronilla de Meath, and a Bishop hell bent on their destruction.Anthony takes Maddy back to his hometown of Kilkenny to tell the tale.Edited by Tomos Delargy. Produced by Freddy Chick and Charlotte Long.Sign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries, with a new release every week and ad-free podcasts. Sign up at https://www.historyhit.com/subscribe.  You can take part in our listener survey here.After Dark: Myths, Misdeeds & the Paranormal is a History Hit podcast.

Hi, we're your hosts, Anthony Delaney and Maddie Pelling. And if you would like after dark myths, misdeeds and the paranormal ad free and get early access, sign up to History Hit. With a History Hit subscription, you can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries with top history presenters and enjoy a new release every week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com forward slash subscribe. Acast powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend. I'm Jessie Kirkshank and on my podcast Phone a Friend, I break down the biggest stories in pop culture. But when I have questions, I get to phone a friend.

I phone my old friend, Dan Levy. You will not die hosting the Hills after show. I get thirsty for the hot wiggle. I didn't even know a thirsty man until there was all these headlines. And I get schooled by a tween. Facebook is like a no. That's what my grandma's on. Thank God Phone a Friend with Jesse Krookshank is not available on Facebook. It's out now wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to After Dark. Today and next week, Anthony and I are going to be bringing you

the story of Ireland's first witch, Dame Alice Kittler. A warning, we begin this episode with a description of execution. The third of November 1324, Ireland. The streets of Kilkenny are abuzz. The townsfolk huddle together in anticipation of death. Today a different kind of cold is carried in the air, a chill that clings to the bones and tightens in the air, a chill that clings to the bones and tightens in the chest. Into this frigid autumnal light, or what's left of it, steps a woman of the town. She is dragged from her cell, her body bruised and broken. Then, slowly but determinedly,

she is paraded through the narrow streets she knows so well, her feet scraping across the cobblestones. The townsfolk stand on either side of the street through which she is processed. The murmur of their prayers mingles with the silent vapors of their fear which ascends into the gray sky and ominously keeps watch. Soon a great pyre breaks into view, its jagged edges reaching skyward.

The woman is roughly bound to it and the crowd falls silent. A torch is touched to the pyre, and as if by magic its white hot energy is transferred to the pyre. The crackling begins. The wood splinters. Then the unmistakable smell. Flesh. The flames lick at the woman's legs. The woman screams. On hearing her screams, some of those gathered look away. Others stare harder, spellbound by the terror and, if they were being honest with themselves, the thrill of this violent spectacle. How do you look away when you're witnessing history?

Soon, this woman will be little more than ash, a warning to all who would dare defy the church. Listener, here on the streets of Kilkenny, my hometown, we have borne witness to the first known case in Ireland or Great Britain of death by fire for the crime of heresy. Hello and welcome to After Dark, I'm Maddie. And I'm Anthony. And this episode, as you might have guessed, is going to be all about the history of Ireland's first witch, a woman named Dame Alice Kittler. Now this is a story that has its climax 700 years ago, which is generally a bit further back than we are used

to going, Anthony, on this podcast. But this happens in 1324, exactly 700 years ago. We often joke we're not a maths podcast, but we can manage that. I didn't notice that at all. I genuinely had no idea that that was exactly 700 years ago. Okay, well, congratulations to everyone who figured that out before me, which is everyone probably. If we're going to be honest, I only know that because our producer wrote that in our notes. Oh, I can't even see that.

Okay, so we have done a lot of witch episodes, which related, which adjacent, which trial episodes on After Dark. We've done an episode on the Last Witch of Scotland. We've looked at the Pendle Witches with a brilliant guest, John Callow. We even did a two-parter on the Salem Witch Trials, which you can go and listen to after you've listened to this episode, of course. Today, we are in Ireland. This is a history, you might have guessed, that Anthony knows particularly well because Kilkenny is a place very close to his heart, isn't it? Giles Yes. So the thing is, this history is based in Kilkenny in the southeast of Ireland. And it's also where I'm from and where I grew up. Couldn't

wait to get out of it when I was growing up there. But now love going back and it's a great place. It is. And you know, that's a really interesting point. This is a history that Antonio knows really well, because as it turns out, it's not. I know the story of it quite well. And I'll give you a little bit of a rundown of that actually, before we get into the history and the story and the history don't necessarily match up. Now I have to say- Well, we love that.

We love that. Yeah. Yeah. It was interesting. And it was interesting from like being at the Kennyman, it was interesting to see that come together. One thing I will say before we get started, though, I have to give a shout out to one of my very oldest friends, Alison Mooney, who listens to this

podcast religiously, particularly when she's on her evening walks. And she has been banging onto me for a long time to do an Alice Kitler. She's obsessed with Alice Kitler. And I'm just like, I'm sure we'll get to it at some point, but here we are, Alison, this is the episode. And Alison is from Kakeni too. And so this goes to show how present this story is in Kilkenny. It's still, Kittler's name, Alice Kittler's name is probably said every single day in the centre of Kilkenny. And we'll get to all of that. So the story goes

that there was this powerful land owning lady and she lived in the centre of Kilkenny, which was a medieval town at the time. It later became a city, but at this time it's a town. And she was, we're not quite sure how in the story, accused of witchcraft, something about dead husbands. I hate when that comes up. All the time. So she gets accused and then she's taken to a prison, some form of prison, either on Parliament Street is where I thought it was, in a prison there, there's a jail, there's a courthouse still there now, although it's not the one from medieval times. Although retellings vary when it comes to that location. Anyway, she's held captive in a prison after being paraded through the streets and she magically escapes. And this is where that kind of witchcraft element comes in, that

she literally has disappeared. And you know, there were guards, standing guard, but somehow Alice disappears. That's the story that we kind of have. Alice's house is still there in this very centre of Kilkenny. It's now a pub and a restaurant. People go there all the time. It's like one of the number one stops for tourists. If you go in, there's an absolutely petrifyingly awful wax figure of a witch inside. And it really kind of feeds into that thing. But look beyond that tat, and sorry, Kittler's, but it is a bit tatty. But like- The Irish tourist board is just absolutely freaking out right now. Anthony's just absolutely condemning this pub in Kilkenny.

We're so sorry if you're the landlord of this pub. You should definitely go to Kittler's Inn. And yeah, it's called Kittler's Inn and there's no Kittler family there now. We're trading on Alice's name. It's one of the cornerstones of tourism in Kilkenny, but the history is, I think, even more fascinating. So we're going to get into the history, but we've obviously started sort of at the end of this story. You've just sketched out for us at the opening there, Alice's death or execution. Or is it though?

Oh, okay. We'll come back to that. Don't worry. Don't worry. Don't worry. I love a mystery. Is she, though, in the modern day in Kilkenny and the surrounding areas. Is she seen as a hero? Is she someone who is remembered fondly or is she someone to be feared? You talked about the horrendous wax work of the witch. Is she still a figure of fear as well as fun? No, she's a figure of fun and heroism, I would say. That's how people see her today. She's a kind of a matron of Kilkenny. People definitely respect her. They think she was hard done by. They think the machinations of authority and colonialism as it was, which

is tricky for the 14th century. But yeah, no, she was a victim of patriarchy of all kinds of different things, which again, we'll get into. But that's no, she was a victim of patriarchy of all kinds of different things, which again, we'll get into. But that's how she's viewed. But there may be a different interpretation to that as we get through this. It'll be interesting to see what we think. Yeah, I'm really intrigued. And you've given us a real taste of what's to come. Let's now try and get a little bit closer to the history because as you've mentioned already, the story and the history are somewhat separate. There is a distance between these two things. Let's get to the 14th century in Ireland

now. If we were to be transported there right in this moment, what would we be looking at? What does Ireland look like in this moment? GWB Well, the political landscape in medieval Ireland, it has come through a particularly tricky time. If we're looking at the 14th century, when this history is set, then we have the mixing of the Anglo-Normans, the Gaelic Irish. Assimilation has begun between those two groups, which were previously quite factious but not now. Well, there's still some tensions remaining, but what you're finding is the Gaelic Irish are now moving into some of the Anglo-Norman castles that were erected when they first came over.

So there is an assimilation, there's cross marriages happening. My own family, the Delaney family, came over in the Norman invasion of Ireland. So this is a lot of the great Irish names. I'm not saying that mine is a great Irish name, but a lot of the great Irish names are from this period. You'll find that they have Anglo-Norman roots. She's French, ladies and gentlemen. She is French. She is originally French. The Anglo-Normans brought with them this idea of stone structure castles, which start to dot the land. So they're changing the landscape.

And we also have to factor in that the English crown has shifting interests in Ireland at this time too. So there's those three competing factions, but very important to this story, as we shall see, is also the influence of the Church. And thus it ever was in Ireland, I suppose, until relatively recently. And the tensions that the Church is inflicting on the three factions that you find in Ireland. So the Church at this time has significant power. The Anglo-Normans, in terms of their belief system, they've very much incorporated the cult of Irish saints into their beliefs. They are fully on board with St. Patrick's, St. Bridges. The communities are

shaped along the same kind of organized church in terms of how they celebrate the church, how they interact with the church. And it's under, at this point, the primacy of the Archbishop of Armagh. Yes. And so the tensions really start to come when Pope John the 22nd, there's always a John, he comes to the papal throne in 1316 and he's very anti-heretical. His policies start to come far more strict and he wants to see throughout Christendom more strict moral codes put into place. And this then starts to have an impact in Kakeni. We've got this land that's changing. There are different power structures and literal stone structures being put in place. We've got the Gaelic Irish themselves, we've got the Anglo-Norman invaders, and those communities are starting to mix and intermingle in the ways that you've set

out. So we have an interesting, quite diverse, potentially quite tense society already. And then you've got the influence of the church and you have this new pope coming to the throne. ready, and then you've got the influence of the church and you have this new pope coming to the throne. Do you think it would be fair to say that Ireland was seen as being on the edge of that religious kingdom, in terms of the religious control over that changing community? Is there a sense that the church needs to claim this land, claim these people? Not necessarily any more than it would anywhere else. But is Ireland seen as a special case? Is the church's power seen as more paramount and more important there than it would be, for example, in England or mainland Europe?

Paul Matz I think it's a good question because the modern perception of religion is often in terms of the divisions that occur later, right? That we're more familiar with working in the 18th century, say, where there's even divisions within the Protestant religion, let alone between Catholics and Protestants. We don't have that type of religious division at this point. And actually, no is the answer. Ireland isn't seen as a bit of an outlier, which it is. It becomes later religiously. It becomes a kind of a very traditional Catholic stronghold and sometimes so traditional that it goes against the wishes of the papacy.

One of the reasons we know that it's not such an outlier is because of the arrival of a bishop that's about to be very important to this particular history. His name is Bishop Richard de Ledred. Now, if ever you're wondering how to pronounce that, because it's written in the very Frenchified way, but the Anglicised version is Leatherhead. So that's how you know it's de Ledred. He is appointed the Bishop of Ossery in 1317. So remember Pope John the 22nd has ascended in 1316. Richard is appointed Bishop of Ossery in 1317. So we're moving relatively quickly here. Ossory, just to bear in mind, is mostly what is now the areas of Kilkenny and Leish. Kilkenny particularly is in the southeast of Ireland. So it's a relatively small town

county in the southeast of Ireland, but very powerful. Even then it was a very, very prevalent, and at some point at Kilkenny becomes the capital of Ireland, even over Dublin. So every Kilkenny person will tell you that. So it is a really important place. Yeah, I never knew that. That's incredible. Yeah. And that's why Kilkenny is known as the medieval city now. It is still retained so much of its medieval history, probably more so than anywhere else in Ireland, I would imagine. I haven't done my survey on that, but just off the top of my head, Cookenny would be the place to go if you're looking for artifacts of medieval Ireland.

LW – Right in if you're an Irish listener and you live in a better medieval city. KM – If you're from Sligo and you think it's better, let me know. But he is known for his zealous adherence to Pope John XXII's advice and his strict catechism. His arrival introduces this into Ireland. LW – This doesn't bode well, does it? We've got a zealot arriving, someone who's extremely religious, into a community in which the church is certainly an important, if not growingly important, power within that. But this is a story about a witch. There's a woman at the heart of this story. What is the status

or the statuses of women in Ireland in this moment? I'm saying statuses, plural, state I, statuses. Who knows? Because I imagine women's experiences are hugely varied depending on geographically where they live, in terms of their social class, their religious standing, and many other factors. So what was life like for a medieval woman, someone like Alice Kittler? AC So there's two divergent ways that we can read this. And so often the popular idea of women in early Ireland in pre-medieval and then medieval Ireland is very much strong warrior women actually. And we see this in the literature an awful lot. We have warrior queens like Maeve for instance, who supposedly led an army.

Shout out to my cousin Maeve who listens to the podcast. Shout out to your cousin Maeve who's now leading an army. And she was supposedly the wife of a weak king. She dominates him. She's a real strong person. Eamour is another warrior who is from Ulster. She's very similar, but she offers kind of a critique of the warrior code amongst the Gaelic Irish and it demands that heroes uphold their honor at whatever cost. And Eimear is kind of the voice of reason within this, but of course being a woman she is ignored. So we have on one hand, here's the women in literature, very strong warriors, this kind of Gaelic

Celtic goddess type woman almost. And I feel like we need a whole episode on that because I'm here for Ema being the voice of reason and not being listened to. That's, you know, all these men sacrificing themselves needlessly in the name of honor. And she's like, lads, come on, be sensible. Maeve, on the other hand, is mowing them all down with her imaginary swords. But in reality, women very rarely feature in the annals of the time. reality, women very rarely feature in the annals of the time. When I say they rarely feature, I mean they very rarely show that they have such power as are contained in this literature. So the law texts show that there were no, as far as we're aware, female politicians

or military leaders whatsoever in Ireland at this time. The women had no legal capacity independent of their husbands or their fathers, as you might expect. We've come to expect that in medieval law. Certainly in the 14th century, yeah. Certainly. And women are actually placed in a category of people that are defined as legally incompetent. Oh, God. Come on, tell me who are in this category. Well, children, enslaved people, people who are mentally unwell. And they are often, the women are often seen, however, despite those categories that I've just given you, the women are often

seen more alike to an independent adult son, but whose father is still alive. So almost like they're waiting in the wings for nothingness, you know what I mean? So it's like the uselessness of an heir. That's the kind of implication. Yeah. So people who wield no power, no official power in society. So in the stories, they can be warrior queens, they can be strong willed, they can be having an impact on the world around them. But in reality and in the legal system, that is not the case. I mean, I'm not surprised, but it's a bit depressing, isn't it? And I think one of the things to keep in mind when we're looking at this gendered idea of medieval Ireland, of 14th century Ireland, is that we're very early in the history of

European witch trials here too. They're often very politically motivated in this early period, in the beginning of the 14th century. Remember keep this in the back of your mind because it does become relevant later, I think. The Knights Templars are found guilty of witchcraft just before this history unfolds in 1314. And it's one of the first cases, the case of Alice and those associated with her become one of the first cases of witchcraft in Europe that is so gendered. So we have the Knights Templars being accused on one hand throughout the rest of Europe in the 14th century, but Kukeni kind of changes that dialogue ever so slightly.

I'm Professor Cezanne Lipscomb and on Not Just the Tudors from History Hit we do admittedly cover quite a lot of Tudors, from the rise of Henry VII to the death of Henry VIII, from Anne Boleyn to her daughter Elizabeth I. But we also do lots that's not Tudors, murderers, mistresses, pirates and witches. Clues in the title really. So follow not just the Tudors from History Hit, wherever you get your podcasts. So you've laid the land out for us in terms of Ireland in the 14th century, but let's zoom in a little bit to Kilkenny. You've said there's a high street, there's a prison that still exists today, possibly not the medieval one. There's a great pub. Tell us what the town, the city looked like in the 14th century though. What could we expect to see there? And how big was it? I mean, you mentioned that at one point it was the capital. So is it a big place? Is it influential?

It's not a big place, but it is influential. So we have relatively small population. Dublin always remains the biggest population in Ireland, then Belfast. Usually that's the relationship there. But Cookenny becomes, because of the growing power of the bishops of Ossory and because of the strong concentration of Anglo-Norman families there, it becomes a real concentration of power, of wealth, and of influence. And later that leads to it being designated as the capital. It's a relatively rich town. There are plenty of merchants. There's a lot of trade coming in through and from Kukeni. The trade in wheat, barley, all that kind of thing is pretty popular. It grows throughout the following few centuries. This is a place where you can make money. It's known as a great spot, even in the medieval

period of hospitality. Kilkenny is a place that you will want to stop off on your journeys, but it's relatively small. So I think that's one of the, I suppose you could look at it as the Oxford of Ireland almost. So that's kind of the vibe. That's interesting. That's kind of what I'm imagining. So it was, what you're saying is it's small but mighty. I feel like the tagline on the sign as you traveled on your little cart with your horse into medieval Kilkenny would have said, size does not matter. That would have been the vibe. Yeah. I like small but mighty by the way. Kilkenny County Council, get onto that and

put that on your signs. That's quite nice. You're welcome. And I will take my cut of that. Thank you very much. But by the way, I don't work for any tourism board in Kilkenny, but I would say get out of Dublin, go to Kilkenny. It's such a great little spot and the history that's there. Again, I think I've spoken about this a million times in the podcast, but it's why I think I fell in love with history. You're passing by these ancient medieval ruins just in the street. It's incredible. It's really a great spot. LW – Okay, so that's Kilkenny, small but mighty town that it is. What about Alice Kittler herself? Because she's a resident of this town. We know potentially what the end of her story is, although

you've hinted that might not be the end of the story. Give us a flavour of who she is as a person and where she sits in this society and this growing wealthy little but very important place. She's important in this important place actually. She's born into a wealthy Anglo-Norman family. This is where we'll find this throughout this history, some of these dates and details, because this is so long ago, become a bit sketchy, but we think she was born around 1260. Now bear in mind that the Normans had arrived in Ireland a century prior. So by now they're very well established. It's not like

Alice's family are a new family. This is very much, you know, she's part of the establishment at this point. She becomes known and is known, she has a reputation in her own time, I suppose, for her business acumen and her independence. Now, we'll talk about that independence a little bit later, because female independence is often accrued through marriage. So let's bear that in mind. And we'll talk about her husband's plural in a moment. She eventually comes to manage her own money lending business, which is hugely successful. And this gives her that agency I'm talking about, but it also gives her more significantly still wealth. She is famous. So let's talk about this. She is very famous

for outliving, well, outliving for probably outliving for husbands, maybe she only outlived three, but she certainly had four husbands. So, I mean, I love that for her. And when I get into it, but it's interesting that already that distance between historical fact and story is creeping in here. Is it three husbands that she outlives? Or is it four? I think that's something we need to sort of put a pin in and hold on to as we go through the episode. Because that is really interesting. And I think it speaks to just the distance of time between us and this, this event. So okay, hit me with the four husbands. What have we got? Okay. I won't name them all because we'll just end up listing and there's other people that come into play because of the husbands. So I'll outline the important ones and just give you the beats of the others. Yeah. So the first husband, this is an important one. So let's remember him. His name is William Outlaw. I beg your pardon? Outlaw? I know a good name, right? Outlaw, yeah.

He is a wealthy merchant. So remember I said there was a lot of trade going on in Kilkenny. So he is one of the people that is right at the centre of that. But would you trust your business to a merchant whose name was Outlaw? I mean, if you're a medievalist, tell us this. Did the word Outlaw mean what it does today? Did it mean a criminal living outside of the law? Because if so, that is fascinating. Where has that surname come from? Because I've never come across that as a

surname. I bet you it must be something to do with the French translation from an original Norman name, right? It probably has nothing to do with it. It probably means like a horseshoe or something. Yeah. I've no idea. Freddy, Google that. Producer Freddy in the background, Google that and see what comes up. I don't know. But I have a feeling it must be a French translation that's just been anglicised, right? L Bear in mind, actually, because in one sense it's a good thing to remember, bear in mind a lot of what's happening here will be conducted through Latin. A lot of the source material we have here

is written in Latin because they come through ecclesiastical courts. So this is also worth remembering in terms of spellings and names and iterations because again, we're going to come across it in a minute. Some people have more than one name and they don't join up and it doesn't make any sense, but we know it's the same person, but the name doesn't match at all. But there's William anyway in the first instance, the husband, William Outlaw. William and Alice have a son who is also named William. Alice's son William becomes a really important ally for Alice throughout her entire career. He is there throughout and he is instrumental in how she is perceived and her reactions

that she makes as things start to become more and more tense. And that's harking back to the status of women, right? That even though Alice is from an important family, she's at least her first husband, and I don't know what's still to come, but she's married well, she's married a respectable merchant, she has her own business lending money, but she still requires the status and protection of the men around her, whether that's the husband or with William Jr., the son as well. Yes, the legitimacy that men afford her, I suppose. Afford is probably a really good name because William Senior dies, as we've been hinting, and Alice is left then with

a sizeable inheritance, and this is the beginning of her wealth accumulation. So after William Outlaw's death, Alice marries again. This is where the money lending money comes in. He is a money lender from County Tipperaryary and she also amasses his wealth when he dies prematurely. Now bear in mind that William Mouthlaw and husband two, they have died prematurely. Even for the 14th century. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's questions being asked here, but even at this early point, questions are being asked, but nothing legal, nothing ecclesiastical just yet. But more wealth is passing to Alice, but as I say, suspicions are increasing. The second

husband's family at this point did say, apparently, this was recorded later, so it might just be very convenient for those who were against Alice to say this, but at the time they were accorded a saying that she had quote, taken his life by magic means. So just, just keep that in the back of your head. So there's already this idea that the deaths are not only unusual and premature, but that she is somehow responsible. Potentially at this point on the death of husband number two, there is already suspicion. Or so her later accusers, Alice's later accusers would like us to think. Yeah. They're trying to build this picture. So husband number one, dead. Husband number two, dead. We're moving

on to husband number three, a wealthy landowner by the name of Richard Deval. And Richard also dies. And she is suspected, Alice in this instance is suspected of practicing quote sorcery to sap his vigor. And the problem here is, and this is interesting again, Richard already has a son also called Richard, keeping up loads of Richards, loads of Williams. So Richard, Alice's third husband has also got a son called Richard. And he is a little bit like, hold on, some of that money would have been mine. Like calm down a little bit there because she's not my mother. So she's gotten some of that because she was his wife. Obviously, I still get the majority because I'm the heir, if I'm Richard, but it's being divided in

a way that, you know, it shouldn't have been. The narrative that's coming out here, and again, I'm bearing in mind, as you say, that these accusations of witchcraft that are creeping in are being levelled at her later on. But there's this sense that she's using magic. And I think it is gendered. I mean, we know that men and women were accused of witchcraft. But I think in this case, you know, sorcery to sap his figure, there's a sense that she is undermining and cutting down in the prime the masculinity of these men around her. She's a woman who is already visible in the society, she's prominent, she is herself wealthy, she's amassing more and more wealth

and power through these husbands who are then dying. I think there's a sense that she's a frightening female figure in Kilkenny, or people are seeing her as a problem when these men are dying in the way that they are. There are certainly wealthy heirs who see her as a problem, yes, because she is at the very least, let's say, at the very, very least, she is dividing their wealth and therefore accumulating her own substantial wealth through all of these marriages. LR And she's upsetting the structure of society that is based around patriarchal inheritance, that wealth, land, property goes from father to son, and she is making that wealth side-step away from those family trees. So she is a real sort of risk to patriarchal hierarchy,

I guess. There's a fourth husband, isn't there? Who's he? There is. There is a fourth husband called John Le Poir. And John comes down to be one of the names in Kilkenny that remains really popular alongside Delaney and Brennan, and although Brennan's not Anglo-Norman, but Le Poir is, and LaPuer is now power in Kilkenny and you'll find that name everywhere in Kilkenny. But John LaPuer is her final husband. Now he again is a nobleman with significant assets, but by now Alice's reputation really has started to sour and she has opened herself up to numerous accusations. This is where Maddy, we have a little bit of a discrepancy. Well, not as to whether or not, because obviously he dies at some point. We're talking about John, the fourth husband now.

When he dies is a little unclear. We get some instances where he has already died before suspicions start to come on to Alice in any real strong and official way. But in other retellings, you hear that actually know they're starting as John is starting to fail because he has a family, he has other family members that are accusing Alice, I have another quote for you, of bewitching him to his grave. And he is suffering apparently fits, hallucinations, and people say that they have gone to visit John and that they have, in fact, seen the devil beside him because Alice was a sorceress. So this is what you're dealing with. Again, caveat, this is all recorded after the fact of her being prosecuted, but this is what we're left with.

LAREEE I mean, you definitely wouldn't want her as a daughter-in-law. Let's put it that way. And I think if you were the last husband, John, you would be feeling a bit nervous. Definitely. But I mean, I suppose there's no real evidence. Is she just incredibly unlucky? Unlucky in love? Who knows? But it's about to go south for her, isn't it? Let's be honest, you can't have four husbands that die before their time and inherit a load of wealth and money from each of them, piss off all of their relatives and live to tell the tale in this historical moment. I feel something is coming for her. I'm Professor Cezanne Lipscomb and on Not Just the Tudors from History Hit we do admittedly cover quite a lot of Tudors, from the rise of Henry VII to the death of Henry VIII, from Anne Boleyn to her daughter Elizabeth I. But we also do

lots that's not Tudors, murderers, mistresses, pirates and witches. Clues in the title really. So follow not just the Tudors from History Hit, wherever you get your podcasts. It may be one thing to piss off the relatives, right? But I'll tell you who you don't want to piss off. The Church. off the church. Bishop Richard de Ledred is on a mission. Rumours of Dame Alice Kittler's supposed diabolical abilities ripple through Kilkenny, filling taverns and doorways, spreading from market stalls to quiet lanes. They call her a sorceress. A witch.

What's more, her own stepson, Richard Duval, is leading the charge. Duval claims that Alice is no ordinary woman, but one steeped in dark arts. He insists she's a mistress of potions and spells, drawing power from shadowy realms. He speaks of charms and talismans, tools to seduce and manipulate her husbands, bringing each one of them to an early death and passing their fortunes on to her. Bishop De Ledred, a man with no tolerance for what he calls devilish arts, is captivated by these allegations. In his records, he writes that Alice had sacrificed animals in secret rituals to summon demonic

beings. It's said she used powders, strange enchanted powders, to seduce her way into wealth and influence. And then there was her familiar, of course, the spirit that served her supposedly summoned by her own hand. Others said they'd seen Alice sweeping her hearth in a strange circular motion, each turn of her broom part of a ritual to summon unseen forces. They say Alice possessed a potion or ointment that kept her youthful and beautiful. Daledred is more and more obsessed, calling her a sorceress and a witch who has employed the power of evil spirits to multiply her riches and cast down her enemies.

As the bishop continues to investigate, accusations, stories and lies blend, blurring the lines between rumor, resentment and fear. Confusion and distrust abound, but one thing is certain. Kulkeni streets are alive with talk of Dame Alice Kittler, the woman who dared to defy and who may, it is whispered, have wielded powers no one truly understands. Oh, Alice, I feel like things have gone south for her very, very quickly. The other thing from the narrative that you just set out there, Anthony, is that the bishop is absolutely loving this. This is everything he's dreamed of. Presumably, he's ambitious. He's just taken over as the bishop of Ossory. What was it in 1317. There's a new pope to impress. So you can find a witch

and sort her out. That's fantastic. Great for the creator. And you can see how all these elements, it's like a tinderbox, isn't it? All these resentments, all these fears about Alice and who she is and what she's done and the power and the money that she's amassed and all these pissed off relatives, that has all ignited and he has leapt on it. You said a little bit about him at the beginning of the episode, but can we hone in on him a little bit more because I fear he is going to be Alice's downfall, but he strikes me as a particularly obsessive and particularly interesting character in the story.

He's definitely the antagonist in this story. Yeah. We think he was born at a similar time to Alice actually around 1265 ish and he lives until the second half of the 14th century. He is, as I said, Bishop of Ossory. He's actually an Englishman who has no connection to Ireland whatsoever. We think he was from Somerset as it happens. Well, there's a town, a leatherhead town in Surrey in the south of England. I wonder if there's any connection there. Who knows?

I don't know, but you never know. It could well be some connection there. And as I said, he was given ossuary in 1317. He was consecrated in Avignon and arrived in Ireland in September 1317. So things moved relatively quickly. But one thing to point out here, and I think it's kind of interesting in terms of context, in terms of the Knights Templar timeline, remember I mentioned those before and I thought it's a bit weird to bring this in, but the

Grandmaster Jacques de Molay is burned as a heretic in 1314. So just think if Richard is in France the three years prior, we don't know exactly that he was, but there's a possibility that he has had some kind of a contact with these satanic heretical accusations that have been floating around the Knights Templar in France. So he will definitely be aware of them. So this may not be his first brush with Satan as he sees it. And listeners, if you are interested in the Knights Templar, we did do an episode with this may not be his first brush with Satan as he sees it. And I suppose seeing what it can do for your career, how it can deepen religious belief, religious power in this moment.

So he may have been in some proximity to that on the continent, but he comes to Kilkenny. What's his role there? How's he received? Well, he's no crack whatsoever. He's not received very well. People are not delighted to see him coming. It sounds very kind of banal in this context, but he really is into his Latin hymns and he's very much sticking to the letter as far as John the 22nd is concerned. And he sees the Latin hymns as a counter to, as he says, these vile secular songs that are

rife in Kilkenny as he sees them. And he's pissing everybody off. He's pissing all the town notables off. So for instance, a man named Arnold Le Poir. Now bear in mind, that's the surname, same surname as Alice's fourth husband. So Arnold Le Poir is absolutely not enamored of the bishop. And they had so much tension between them that Le Poir is actually excommunicated for protecting heretics, namely Alice eventually. But I would point out here that in that tension between Le Poir, Arnaud Le Poir and Kittler and Richard, Le Poir is siding with Alice. And it's interesting to know that Richard tells us, because the accounts we have are mostly Richard Ledred's accounts of what happens to Alice. He's telling us all the steppe families are against Alice, but there's a world in which Arnold is definitely related to John LePoir, Alice's fourth husband,

but he couldn't very well be his brother. He's definitely at least his cousin, but he could very well be his brother. And he's siding with Alice. So it's just interesting to introduce that piece of doubt as to all of this information we're getting is coming from Richard, and we don't have Alice's firsthand accounts of these things. MS. Yes. And what you're painting here is actually a division, not so much between Alice and everyone else in Kilkenny, but actually between the church and specifically this new bishop and the people of Kilkenny, the fact that he is insisting everyone sings serious Latin hymns rather than popular folk

songs and things like that. He's obviously a real killjoy and he's obviously come in as an outsider to a community, a very tight knit, prosperous community and laid down the letter of the law as it were. He has some level of unpopularity. And that is interesting that actually you're introducing here an idea of Alice having some allies in the story. And that's quite exciting because I really want that for her because so far you can't convince me that she's done anything wrong whatsoever. Will Barron Well, Alice had allies, believe me, she was not short on an ally. And actually, one of

the strongest she had was a woman called Petronella the Meese. So Petronella is a loyal maid of Alice's. She lives in her house. They're thought to be extremely close. But bear in mind, this is all coming to us from the account of the bishop who was very anti-Alice. So these relationships were all being set up from the bishop's point of view. But their close relationship makes Petronella a prime target for the bishop and others who are suspecting Alice of sorcery because they think Petronella can help with their investigations. And what we see emerging is this idea that Petronella is part of Hitler's Coven. And that Coven includes five or six very prominent people from Kukeni. I won't name all the names because it'll just

get too confusing. But there are a lot of big Kukeni names in there, as well as, interestingly enough, you have all these really important people. You have Petronella, who is a loyal mate. And then you have Petronella's daughter, who is either named, depending on your source, as Sarah or Basilia. And Basilia is a translation of royal as well, which is quite interesting. But Petronella and her daughter and others are seen as part of this coven. It's interesting that you say this version of events is coming to us through the bishop. It seems to me there's a fear being picked up by him, felt by him about the confidence

between women. You've spoken about women's status in the 14th century in Ireland, that they didn't have power and that really their power was drawn from the men around them. If they stepped out of line, if they stood a little bit too tall, they would be torn down by the people around them and that the men would be upset by this interruption or just disruption of the hierarchy and the patriarchal nature of the society they lived in. This absolutely speaks to that, that Alice is a well-to-do person. She's respected. She has these high status, at least middling status husbands, and yet she puts her trust and her friendship in a maidservant, someone who's socially far below her. Of course, there would be that intimacy there within the. And that's something that continues right up until the beginning of the 20th century,

really. The relationship, the closeness between women and the female servants in particular that served them and worked underneath them. So it's not unusual, but I think it's interesting that that's such an important element here, that that friendship is such a big part of the case. So why is Petronella, and I love these names, by the way, Petronella and Bacilia, brilliant. Why is Petronella so key to this story? Why do we know anything about it? Because presumably she would otherwise be lost to history. Jason Vale As I'm listening to you talk particularly

about those gendered aspects, I'm wondering that myself. And it makes for a great story, right? Let's set the history aside a little bit. It makes for a great story where we have these two women at the center of power conspiring against these powerful men. But what's irking me a little bit actually, and we'll see this as we go through, but we've already seen tastes of it already already is actually the people that Alice is relying on for most of her support in this case are really powerful men and they give their support very willingly. They very much rally around Alice. The pillars of Klockeni society are rallying around Alice, not the bishop. So the bishop is leaving himself as the outlier, which is kind of interesting. So that begs your question even further, I think, Maddie.

So why does Petronella start to figure so prominently? And I think it's that proximity, isn't it? Because we can talk about Arnold Le Poir, who we saw was against the bishop and who gets excommunicated because of his stance with Alice and against the bishop. But he's not going to be able to say what's going on inside Alice's household. He's not going to be able to give an insight into the private life of Alice and what's going on behind closed doors. And that's where I think it becomes really gendered because Petronella can have access to that domestic, intimate, private sphere. And what's happening in there is what's of the utmost

interest to Bishop Ledred. So let's talk about some of the accusations then that are made because there is evidence and you know, we're using commas around that. There is evidence brought against her, isn't there? So who are these witnesses that come forward and what is Alice actually accused of? Well, the bishop tells us that the evidence that comes forward comes from her stepchildren and that they include quote, satanic relics. And apparently she used these relics in rituals. And these were supposed to point directly, of course, to her involvement in witchcraft. And Bishop de Ledred's records mentioned quote, bones and powders, supposedly involvement in witchcraft. And Bishop Dele Dredd's records mention, quote,

bones and powders supposedly found in her home. So here we are back in the home where Petronella can attest to this happening, as well as a vial of dark, thick liquid that he described, that the bishop described as a potion of enchantment. So these are the artifacts that are fueling the case against her and solidifying, as Bishop de Ledrede sees it, of her portrayal as a malicious sorceress. It seems to me, though, that finding bones, finding powders and finding any kind of dark liquid in a medieval house would probably be quite easy. I imagine those items were knocking around. It's fascinating and very predictable

that these are then brought out as the main evidence of witchcraft. We have this situation where Alice has drawn, well, I was going to say drawn attention to herself, but I think she's had the attention drawn to her by all these husbands dropping dead. I suppose there's a world in which she has murdered them, in which she's poisoned them. You spoke about the last husband having hallucinations and fits. That could very well be the result of poisoning or that she's making them unwell in some kind of way. There is an argument to be made that she really is killing them, though not by witchcraft.

Or she could be completely innocent and this is just the 14th century, people die and they die young and they die regularly. Maybe she's just unlucky. But she's made enough enemies throughout these events to come up against her. Now the bishop's become obsessed and he can see all kinds of religious and political advantage for him in accusing her. Is she going to be put on trial? Will the people of Kilkenny allow this to take place? Well, before we get to answer that, I just want to recap for you some of the players that we have in motion here. We have Alice, of course. We have Alice, who is being primed

to be accused of witchcraft in a formal capacity now. We have Petronella, her course, we have Alice who is being primed to be accused of witchcraft in a formal capacity now. We have Petronella, her maid, in the household with her, who the key antagonist in this history, Bishop de Ledrede, sees as the key to giving evidence against Alice. We have Alice's son, of course, William Outlaw Jr., who is standing firmly by his mother. We have the fourth husband, either mortally ill or dead, depending on which source you come across. And this is bringing the huge amount of interest towards Alice. And you have Arnaud Le Poir, one of the stalwarts of Kilkenny's civic authority authority siding with Alice against the church. And these are the tensions that are coming into play before we get to this trial that you're talking about, Maddie. But to find out about that trial, you're going to have to join us in episode two.

Well, I, for one, cannot wait to hear what's going to happen in this story. And I'm a little bit nervous that Petronella is going to betray her mistress. I don't know. I'm edging towards that. I'm feeling nervous for Alice, but that is coming in episode two. So thank you for listening to the first part of this mini-series of After Dark. If you've enjoyed this medieval tale, then you must immediately drop everything else that you're doing and go and check out Gone Medieval from History Hit. It's one of our sister podcasts, hosted by Eleanor Yarnagar and Matt Lewis.

They are totally brilliant. So go and check that out now. If you want to get in touch with the show, as ever, you can suggest episode topics for us to cover. You can tell us what you've been enjoying, what you'd like to hear more of. The email address is afterdark at historyhit.com. ACAS powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend. I'm Jessi Kirkshank and on my podcast podcast Phone a Friend, I break down the biggest stories

in pop culture, but when I have questions, I get to phone a friend. I phone my old friend Dan Levy. You will not die hosting the Hills after show. I get thirsty for the hot wiggle. I didn't even know a thirsty man until there was all these headlines. And I get schooled by a tween. Facebook is like a no. That's what my grandma's on.

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