After Dark: Myths, Misdeeds & the Paranormal - Lost Colony of Roanoke: Mystery of England's First American Settlers

Episode Date: September 12, 2024

The colonists of Roanoke Island in the 1580's were the very first English people to try to establish a permanent settlement in America. They completely disappeared. The only clue was the word 'CROATOAN' carved into a tree where they had been. What happened?Maddy Pelling and Anthony Delaney are joined today by Misha Ewen, author of The Virginia Venture: American Colonization and English Society, 1580-1660 and lecturer in early modern history at the University of Sussex.Edited by Tomos Delargy. Produced by Freddy Chick and Charlotte Long.Enjoy unlimited access to award-winning original documentaries that are released weekly and AD-FREE podcasts. Sign here for up to 50% for 3 months using code AFTERDARKYou can take part in our listener survey here.After Dark: Myths, Misdeeds & the Paranormal is a History Hit podcast.

This is the story of one of America's greatest mysteries, the lost colony of Roanoke, and the attempt by the English to establish a colony on the shores of the North American continent. In 1587, 115 settlers vanished without a trace. The only clue they left behind was the word Croatoan carved into a tree. Myths swirl around this history. The truth, however, is complex. But for now, it's 1585 and we're in a secondhand village on the Pamlico River in North Carolina. It's two years before the Lost Colony will be, well, lost.

Englishman John White is sketching the scene before him. The tobacco crop, the field of ripe maize, the low houses, the makeshift chapel and the burial ground. The villagers are eating their meals, talking soberly. He's sketching the tilled earth and the pumpkins that spring bulbous from it, a shock of colour in a land of autumnal greys and browns. But take all of this with a pinch of salt. Although John White is a passable artist, he doesn't have the best eye for detail. For instance, he's given some of the people before him two right feet. Not far away from this sketcher sits his guide, Manteo, of the Croatoan tribe.

He spent much of the previous year living in London in the house of Sir Walter Raleigh and is no stranger to settlers looking to expand their reach in the New World. Now he's returned to act as an intermediary in England's first attempt to establish a permanent foothold on this continent. If we're to understand the mystery of the lost colony, we need to start here, to try to unpick this badly drawn picture of the the way, to After Dark Towers. I'm Anthony. And I'm Maddie. And we've been languishing in these towers for the last, however, many days, waiting for you all to come back and listen to another bizarre or dark history.

And today we are looking at one of the greatest mysteries in history, the fate of the lost colony of Roanoke. And our guest today, and we have long been asking for Misha to be one of our guests, but it's Dr. Misha Ewan, a lecturer in Early Modern History at the University of Sussex and author of The Great Virginia Venture, American Colonization and English Society, 1580 to 1660. Misha, we're so glad to have you at long last. Yes, it's so nice to be here and see both your faces as well. Thank you for inviting me. Not at all. It is absolutely our pleasure. Now, I'm going to ask you to do some very not at all. It is absolutely our pleasure. Now, I'm going to ask you to do some very basic background on this, because for those who may not be familiar with the mystery of Roanoke, so let's leave the

history for a second. What exactly is the mystery? Okay, so as you've already suggested, it does become known as the Lost Colony and the Lost Colonists and this is because in 1590 when John White, who you've already mentioned, returns to Roanoke, so after he's voyaged back to England to resupply, there's been a stay of shipping because of the Spanish Armada in 1588. Elizabeth says, you know, no ships can go, we can't risk losing any of our precious shipping, we're at war. He tries to make his way there by hiring smaller privateer ships, he doesn't manage to reach it, and when he does finally get back there in 1590, there is no sign of any of the colonists. He can see that they've pulled down the houses, which suggests that it was a deliberate abandonment, if you like,

of the colony, that they were not hurried hurried or rushed from the site. And all you can see is sketched into one of the palisaded posts is this word croto, which suggests that, well, he thinks that perhaps that's where the colonists have gone to seek refuge with local indigenous people. The colonists are never found, but within several generations, when English colonists again returned to this region and established Jamestown there were all different kinds of reports about what might have happened to them. Even you know kind of 130 years later when English men are surveying in that area they also hear stories from indigenous people about what might have happened to these English settlers and this continues right through into the 20th century and around 1937

when there's the 350 year anniversary of the establishment of the colony. There are all different kinds of commemorative events. So it's very much a part of the origin story of the United States and particular individuals are kind of picked out from this story as you know, they're mythologised in ways that are quite disturbing as well. Perhaps we might come on to talk about that later. In the story of English America, this is the starting point and there is this mystery which surrounds what happened to the people and the fascination not just since but also at the time of what became of them.

LW This doesn't often happen to me on After Dark, but I actually have goosebumps. And it's not just because we're changing from summer into autumn. But I think this is such an interesting story. It has so many mysterious elements and so many different types of history coming in here. We've got the history of colonization. We've got, as you say, this kind of myth-making around early America. You referenced the Spanish armada and things happening back in England. So let's get into some of the concrete history that we know. We know that the Lost Colony, as it's going to go on to be called, is founded in 1587. But there's a previous failed colony from 1585, two years earlier as well. So why are the English trying to build this settlement, this stronghold in this part of North America in this moment, Misha?

Misha Yeah, so I guess the backdrop to this is, you know, by this point, almost a century of English exploration, if you like, in parts of North America, so much further north in present-day Canada, seeking the Northwest Passage, but also in what we now think of as the eastern coast of North America, which was coined Virginia by Raleigh, but also parts of Newfoundland as well in Atlantic Canada. So they have been going into these places, trying to establish settlements in search of natural resources. they are encountering indigenous people and hearing different kinds of stories about you know gold and silver mines and

tin mines and and they're thinking about the ways in which they can exploit the natural riches of this region. But importantly for the English at this time the Chesapeake region and Roanoke and what will later become Virginia hasn't yet been claimed by another European power and that's really important because obviously they don't really want to have direct conflict if they can avoid it. But you mentioned the Spanish armada and this is obviously occurring against the backdrop of the Reformation and rivalry between what is now Protestant England and Catholic Spain and this sense in which if they can get a foothold in the Chesapeake first,

which is thought of by other Europeans as being a tactically advantageous spot, but also rich in natural resources, that from this point, the English can begin to expand their New World Empire and begin to counter Spanish influence in what was then the Caribbean and parts of South America. When they go in 1585 to 86, I guess what's a little bit different from what comes later is that at that point they're only sending boys and men. It's very much

a military garrison. They are obviously kind of making exploratory missions whilst they're there to try and survey the land and like you say, white produces all of these drawings, both of the people, but also the plants and the animals in that area. But when they return in 1587 with this much larger group, including these family groups, women, some women who are pregnant as well,

there's much more of a sense of establishing a civilian colony. That's actually very new and unique for the English in the 16th century and is obviously what will then become the model for English settlement in the 17th century. There are lots of ways in which Roanoke creates a blueprint for what will come later, even though it isn't successful in the way that English colonists would have liked. Let's put some of those characters back into that settlement then. Two that you've mentioned so far are Matteo and John White.

Can you tell us a little bit about both of those people? So John White is from London. He is employed by Raleigh because he has a range of different skills I guess that he can bring to this colonial venture but primarily it's to record what he sees as Maddy's already mentioned both the people, the kinds of settlements that they encounter but also the flora and the fauna as well. He's married, he has a daughter, several grandchildren, a son-in-law, and they join the later colony in 1587 with him. Manteo, like Maddie said, has spent some time in London in the household of Raleigh.

He has been informing them about the region, acting as a go-between, but also this real sense that at this time there is knowledge exchange between Indigenous people and English colonists, this kind of two-way relationship. And he then returns with them in 1587 back to the region. And the idea is that he can help to broker good relations with the local Indigenous population. He's also joined in London by another Indigenous man named Juan Cheezy who also stays on the strand at Raleigh's property and they're involved in later with helping to produce different texts and kind of create these very early guides if you like for colonists about the kind of the language, the customs, the culture of the people, something that they can use when they go back to these parts of North America to establish the colonies. Should we be surprised, Misha, that the indigenous people who just described that they're looking to

collaborate with colonists, this maybe isn't the narrative that we understand from our modern perspective. I'm assuming that that's not a blanket case across all of the indigenous tribes living in the areas that are being colonized by the English and indeed by the Spanish. But is this an unusual situation or is this something that's being cultivated by both sides, if you like? CK Yeah, so definitely not unusual, definitely being cultivated by both sides, but I think also there's a spectrum, isn't there? So a spectrum in terms of, I guess, how consensual sometimes these journeys are, these relationships are. I think what historians appreciate more today than perhaps we did a few generations ago is that this is also occurring against a really complex backdrop of indigenous politics and different rivalries and things that they are seeking

from brokering relationships with different European groups, ways they might advantage their own political groups versus others. And there is a pattern as well of the English bringing these go-betweens back to England with them and that's something which also continues into the 17th century as well. It's something that we see recurring again and again, this sense of collaboration both on producing new texts and knowledge about the so-called new world and also using them on the ground as well to help broker these political relationships with local leaders but also acting as interpreters as well. But I do think that we do have an appreciation now that sometimes this is also coming about

through the motivations of Indigenous people know it fails, do we know why? Well, as I mentioned before, it's very much a military garrison. So it's populated by men and boys, and it's a very violent colony as well. So it's led by Ralph Lane, who goes on to massacre and kill one of the local leaders, a man named Wing Gina. So relations with the local indigenous people completely breaks down, which is counter to their plans because they think that they need to have good relations with local indigenous people in order to broker diplomatic relations but also to use their knowledge about the region and the local resources that

they're planning to exploit. So they decide actually the English colonists that Roanoke isn't a suitable location for a settlement and when they return in 1587 the intention is that they'll actually make their way much further north to the Chesapeake, but they're dropped off in Roanoke kind of against their will and their plans, and that's how it unfolds from that point. Have you ever imagined what it would be like to see the newly built Duomo towering above you in Renaissance Florence. To feel the spray of Caribbean waters on your face as you sail into the pirate port of Nassau. I'm Matt Lewis, host of the Echoes of History podcast and if like me you want to get a taste of time travel into the worlds of Assassin's Creed, join me every week as we explore the

real life stories and events that inspire the locations, the characters and the storylines of this legendary game franchise. We'll be talking to historical experts to uncover the secrets of the past before stepping into the animus to delve into how these moments are recreated. So whether you're a history fan, a gamer, or just someone who loves a good story, Echoes of History has something for you. Listen and follow Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by HistoryHit, wherever you get your podcasts. Right, so we have this contextual information around what the colonizers are doing here and what's happening on the ground and the relationship they have with the Indigenous

people. But let's get a little bit more into the detail of the lost colony of Roanoke. And Maddie is going to give us a little bit more detail. It's 1587 now. Once again, we are with John White in the middle of a settlement in what is now North Carolina. It's a dark night on Roanoke Island and he sits by a small fire in the middle of the doomed English colony. Up to now he has been a bit part player, watching and sketching from the sidelines,

documenting progress and considering his part in the New World. But now he's the leader of a whole new operation. Around him, almost a hundred souls all fated to become the lost colonists are sleeping peacefully. But don't picture them slumbering inside log cabins as later illustrations would have it. Instead they're huddled in crude lean-tos made from the bush and gathered together for warmth. As White sits frowning into the fire a cry breaks out in the dark and for a moment a smile crosses his face. Because with that cry new life is heralded, his granddaughter

has just come healthy and screaming into the world. And her arrival marks a significant turning point for those who've made it to this far offshore because she is the very first person to be born to an English mother on this entire continent. She will even take its name, Virginia, Virginia Dare. When all is lost and gone, her name will linger on, and the myths around her will grow and grow and grow. Right, so this, Misha, this is the trip that gets lost. Who do we have here? And what would this

group of people have looked like? What's different about this? They're quite an average bunch of people, in a way. So John White lives in London, his family live in London, and evidence would suggest that most of this group are known to each other. So, you know, lots of them share the same surnames, they attend the same parish churches. The group is mostly from the city of London, they're not kind of widely dispersed as you do find with the settlement of Jamestown much later for example. There are brothers, there are cousins, there are husbands and wives, some have children, some of the children are left behind in England with relatives, some of the children are brought with them, including some very young infants. And in terms of their social status, they are sort of

middling kind of people. So some of them, like John White's own son-in-law, are skilled. So he's a stone carver, for example. And I guess they would have tried to recruit people who had some kind of useful skills. So they might be carpenters, for example, bricklayers. So they're not the kind of lowest people in the kind of rungs of society, but they're also not gentry. They're probably not landowners either. Scholars think that perhaps several of them might be Puritans and that might help explain some of their motivation as well. I think certainly they're Protestant, so I guess there is a sense in which there is a religious motivation here, that they're kind of going to the New World to settle this colony, to help supplant Catholic Spain's influence in the region. So we do know a fair bit about the makeup,

we know all of their names, we know that about 17 of them are women, this from an English point of view is completely novel in this time. We haven't had so far in English history groups of women being part of these colonial ventures and I think that is interesting because it obviously suggests that there is a sense of creating a permanent stable society. It isn't just going to be extractive, although it will be extractive and exploitative as well, but this sense in which they are very much trying to replicate English society. And of course, you need women to be able to do that through giving birth to the next generation, as Elinor Dev does when she gives birth to her daughter, Virginia.

I love this idea, Misha, that it's a community who are all based in London originally, and they're sort of transplanted almost as a whole to the New World, which is fascinating because, as you say, in later settlements, it's very much not the case and you get people drawn in from all different walks of life and different racial identities, different classes. So there's a real melting pot of people to better and worse effect really. Just thinking about the mystery and knowing what we now know is going to happen to this colony, or at least we know that something happens even if the details still evade us, that there's something slightly claustrophobic about the fact that everyone probably knows, well certainly by the time they

arrive on the American continent, everyone knows each other and people are already expecting children, they've brought children with them. It feels like a very closed off world and that seems quite frightening to me. Do you think that was the case? Do you think there would have been this element of claustrophobia? G. You can imagine it's really intense because as you say, these are people who are already known to each other, but they've made this long journey whilst some of these women are already heavily pregnant too. And now that you sort of raise that issue, it makes me think about how traumatic it would have then

been for the families and communities left behind in London when this entire group of people just disappear from their lives as well, because in a way it was so concentrated and that is very different from what becomes later. Obviously through the 17th century much larger numbers of people take part in colonisation in their thousands and thousands but there is this sense of it being much more widely dispersed. It must have been really frightening as well and a real sense of vulnerability because the group did

include, yeah, pregnant women and children who would have been less able to defend themselves if that was necessary. And I wonder if that has added to this sense of mystery and the reasons why they have been mythologised because of the presence of women within this group. I wonder if it would have come about in the same way had they not been there. But I think that has contributed. I think gender is a huge part of this story and the ways in which it has been mythologized and race as well, actually. So how quickly did things start to go wrong then?

What was the turning point? Was it a collection of things that happened? Certainly it starts to unravel. But how does that happen? I mean, in some ways, it's quite undramatic. You know, they just think we're going to need more supplies, you're going to have to go back to England. But they see this as something which will be relatively straightforward. You know, the ships will be returned within a few months, everyone will still be there. And yet it's the change in political context in Europe which really creates the disaster

and this two-year delay in being able to return. So it's hard to know what then happens on the ground. I think as someone who studies later colonisation in North America, I can imagine that they ran out of food very quickly. If relations with the local indigenous people had broken down, they might have been unwilling to trade food with them, but they also just might not have had enough food. You know, a bad winter and a bad harvest can mean that you don't have enough for your own people, never mind to share with these newcomers. There could have been outbreaks of illness and disease, although we know it's quite a healthy site. They would have had access to, you know, kind of fresh clean water and like in Jamestown,

where there were lots of issues with very brackish salty water, but still, you know, a whole host of things. And also if you do have women as part of the group who are becoming pregnant and going through childbirth, you know, many of them might have died in, you know, from childbirth complications. So you can imagine that maybe after a year or two, the number of this group could have been depleted, very weakened anyway. Even if the supply mission had made it back quicker, how many colonists would have still been healthy and alive at that point anyway? LR You mentioned, Misha as well, this racial element. We know that John White initially has this one person, Manteo, with him as a sort of go between maybe as a figure who can speak to everyone in that local area, including the colonists, and

sort of negotiate those relations. But that peacefulness, that collaboration doesn't last very long, does it? There is tension between the colonists and the Native Americans in that region, right? LR Yeah, and I think this also is just a recurring theme into the 17th century as well. There are always violent skirmishes and there might then be periods of peace and negotiation and trade, but quickly violence re-erupts and it's usually English aggression, sometimes making incursions too far into Indigenous lands, for no good reason attacking Indigenous people, killing them. And I think even when the Jamestown colonists return in 1607, so this is 30 years later, you know, the local people haven't forgotten who the English are.

There are lasting memories and impacts of this earlier period of violence and how that would have played out in the mystery of the lost colony. You can imagine that there would have been lots of local groups who would have been very unwilling to give shelter to these colonists, even if they

were by that point mostly women and children. They would remember the earlier violence of Lanes settlements in 1585 and 86 when lots of indigenous people lost their lives. So they have little reason really to provide shelter and protection to these English settlers. And you mentioned violence there, Misha, and we know that one of the settlers was killed very early on in the settlement by an Indigenous American. And then John White and Manteo are some of the people that lead this retaliatory raid that goes terribly wrong because they end up killing the wrong group of indigenous Americans. And that then brings more violence their way. John is sent home to London to look for reinforcements. He leaves in August 1587. And this is just barely a month after they've arrived.

But he then can't get back to the colony. So what is it that keeps him away for so long? And why can't he get back to the colony. So what is it that keeps him away for so long and why can't he get back to them? So it's Elizabeth's order that no ships would be allowed to return because of the Spanish Armada. So in order to try and get round this, what John does is hires two smaller pinnacers to try and make his way across, but he can't. And then he does manage to get there in 1590. Again he's had to hire three smaller ships and this is after you know really begging Raleigh as well for Raleigh's support, for him to provide shipping and it's when he makes that return in 1590 that he realises that the colony has been abandoned and finds this carving on the post that might suggest what's happened to them.

And this, of course, is where the mystery comes in. It's 1590 now, three years after he left to get help, and John White has finally returned to Roanoke. The story of his return has the logic of a nightmare to it, a jumble of confusing signs and traces, and ultimately a feeling of helpless dread. On the 15th of August 1590, White and a small crew rode a boat through shallow inlets towards Roanoke Island. As night fell they tied the vessel up near the shoreline and waited for the dawn before setting foot on it. In the dark hours they saw smoke rising above the treetops. The group in the boat sang hymns hoping to hear voices answering them through the dark and confirmation that the colonists were there

and well. At daybreak they went ashore and headed for the spot where White had left the colonists three years earlier. On the way, they saw footprints in the sand and a tree on top of a sandbank with the letters C, R, O carved into it. White took this as a secret sign of some kind. Finally, around a corner they saw the colony itself, or rather the desolate remains of it. All of the houses had been knocked down. Detritus was strewn everywhere. There was no sign of life. A tall perimeter fence had been built around the houses from giant trees. On one of these, a word had been carved. It started with the same three letters as they'd seen before, but this time it went on. C-R-O-A-T-O-A-N. Kroatoan.

That was it. Nothing more than footsteps and smoke and marks on a tree. This was all that John White could find so far from home in search of a group that included, let's not forget, his daughter and granddaughter. What must he have felt? What had happened here? And where had the lost colonists gone? Sorry, now, hold on, hold on, hold on.

I am no expert in 16th century settler culture in America, but this doesn't seem that mysterious to me at all. Your man's gone for three years and he comes back and this relatively small settlement is no longer where he left it. I mean, this is very early days. We're not even into the 17th century when things start to be maybe a little bit more formalized. So they just got up when they left, surely. Misha, help me. So, I mean, there are different theories about what might have happened. So in the early 17th century, the Jamestown colonists hear from Chief Powhatan, who is a local leader and the father of Pocahontas, that his people had killed all the colonists. But they also

hear reports that indigenous people are claiming English ancestry. Late in the 18th century, people report seeing Indigenous people who have grey eyes and this must mean that they also have English ancestry and they report having grandparents and great-grandparents who read books and were always waiting for Vali's ship to return. I think probably what most historians agree on now is that possibly some of the group was dispersed, might have been absorbed into local indigenous communities, most likely if that happened it would have included women and children, but if there was another outbreak of conflict, you know, the men would likely have been killed. But then

how you square that with, I guess, the physical evidence that the houses were pulled down suggests that maybe the group did choose to leave, as you're kind of thinking, and kind of move around trying to seek shelter, but any number of things could have then happened to them, really. GER Now, as a historian of graffiti, I have to ask about the carved word, Croatoan. Why do you think it is carved? Is it carved by the colonists? Is it carved by someone who has wished them harm? What can we glean from this tiny piece of evidence? CK Well, the word is both the name of a place, but also the people that inhabit that place.

So I guess the clue is that this is where we have gone, we're seeking shelter with these people. But you know, it could also as likely mean, you know, we're facing a threat from these people and this is why we've had to leave. I think these letters were clearly left for John White and it does make me think about the fact that his son-in-law was a stone carver. So you do wonder whether the husband of Eleanor Dare might have actually made this carving himself. But equally, I mean, you will know from your work that, you know, they would have had tools at hand. Anyone really that was survived at that point could have made the carving into the wooden post. It would have been a fairly, I guess, soft material to work with as well, so it probably wouldn't have taken too much force or skill. But yeah,

I mean, I think really the mystery, or the reasons why it has been mythologised, I think is because this sense in which for a long time, and even at the time, English settlers wanted to hold onto this idea that some of them them had made it and that from 1587 onwards there has been an English presence in North America and that this happened earlier than Jamestown and it happened even earlier than the pilgrims, you know, right back into the 16th century. That kind of wanting to stake a claim right from the 16th century that there was this English presence I think is one of the reasons that it's become such a myth and such an origin story for people in the US and historians as well, you know, still fascinated by it and what might have happened to the

people. But today, there isn't much that remains in terms of archaeological evidence. And actually, archaeologists have really struggled to find where this site might have been, which obviously could provide lots of clues about what might have happened to the settlers. That's fascinating. And I really like that insight of it benefits the colonial narrative for this to be more of a myth than potentially it might have been. And part of that myth making right is Virginia Dare, this very dramatic name. Can you tell us a little bit of what we know about her, But then the myth that's grown up around her too.

Yeah, I mean, so you've already said, obviously, she's named after the region. She's the first English child to be born in North America. But we don't know what happened to her, whether or not she survived. But she looms really large in American culture, particularly in the 19th century and into the early 20th century, she appears in lots of works of fiction in 1937 when there is the 350th anniversary of the settlement and all the commemorative coins which are minted and stamps. Eleanor and Virginia, that image, well you know an imagined image image of them features quite prominently on these creations. So they become very much a part of the visual culture associated with early English colonization in a way that is particularly unique. So I guess the only other figure that has become so mythologized and whose image has been reproduced

to the same extent is Pocahontas. And I think it's you know it's for similar reasons it's about this sense of establishing an English identity in North America, one which is is feminine and pure and Christianized as well importantly. And I guess the birth of Virginia, what it symbolizes is the birth of a new English America, but one which is explicitly white as well. And I think that's important, you know, this desire to have established this white, settled community right back in the 16th century that continues obviously until today. Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it, that even today she, the idea of her is kind of perpetuated by white supremacists really. And she's become

this kind of anti-immigration symbol, which of course is incredibly ironic. Her family were immigrants to that country and yes, she is the first English born person potentially in the American continent. But we talk a lot on After Dark about how stories from the past are kind of emptied of their original context and used in new ways. And I think we absolutely see that. It's so interesting to me that you kind of make the comparison now or the connection with Pocahontas. And you mentioned earlier that her father, Pocahontas' father, is involved in this story and he really is in that history. Would it they have been a similar age, Virginia, Dare and Pocahontas? And has anyone written

a book that puts the two of them together because I need that book. Well, there are certainly fictionalized accounts that when I was doing some of the research for coming on this podcast learned that, you know, Virginia Dare has features in these these kind of romance novels where, you know, John White can't choose between her and Pocahontas. So it's interesting the ways in which these women have been cast together because of their connections in this earlier moment. They are incredibly symbolic for how English people at the time imagine this colonial project. So Pocahontas, it's about we are going to convert the indigenous people. We are going to quote, civiliseise them and that's what she

represents for them. I guess Eleanor and Virginia on the other hand is this is the work that our English women are going to do, they're going to go, they're going to give birth to the next generation, they're going to spread our language, our customs, our religion. Women's images, women's bodies are doing all kinds of work for the colonial project, and that is both Indigenous women but also white European women. I think it's so fascinating thinking about the reality of maybe what happened to particularly the women like Eleanor and Virginia. I suppose the reality is that they maybe died of starvation, that they were killed, or that they were consentingly assimilated into local communities, indigenous communities.

And it's so fascinating to me that if that was the case and they were absorbed in that way into a different culture, what they represent today is so at odds with that. And it's such a fascinating tension and that gap between the reality of this history and the storytelling around it, that grey area that's so hard to access and it's so hard to filter truth and storytelling, that's so tantalising. Do you think that's the reason why we return to the story again and again, that these lost settlers, the reality of what happened to them, the stories that we tell about them, it's so compelling? Is that it? Is that what draws us in? I think one of the reasons that this story continues to fascinate people is because it does open a window into all different kinds of hopes and anxieties that both the settlers had at the

time but also ones which continue to fascinate but also concern Americans over several centuries, and particularly around relations between white European settlers and Native Americans as well. And I think that is very much at the heart of this story, you know, whether or not the colonists might have integrated and whether, you know, and whether integration was possible at the time as well is obviously a key concern. I think one of the reasons that people are so interested in this story. And as Maddy was saying, it's there's this tension between the

fiction and the fact or the few facts that we do know, I suppose. Can you tell us a little bit about the dare stones? Apparently a message that was left by Virginia, which is dubious in its origins, I believe. Yeah, and actually, and it's interesting that these stones first appeared in 1937. So the same year that you know, these coins are being minted, these stamps being created, you know, the play The Lost Colony is staged for the first time

down at the site. So there's a real kind of cultural fascination at this time. Several local so called, well, some of them are real historians, some of them are kind of pretenders essentially, kind of keep discovering these these stones that tell this very elaborate story of what happened to the colonists. Much of them are revealed shortly after as being hoaxes and fakes, there's about 48 of them in total, but there is still a huge question mark over the first stone whether or not it could be genuine.

Some people have inspected the language and the handwriting and say you know it seems very much of the time it seems to be genuine Elizabethan English but I do wonder myself you know how difficult it would have been to forge something like that you know if you have some grasp on Shakespearean English and a little bit of imagination. It's really hard to say and I think historians understandably are not keen to kind of stake their reputations on really trying to get to the truth of this because I think it is problematic in a way it goes back to this issue of you know why are we so fascinated with wanting to sort of establish that you know these people survived and there have been white Americans in America since the 16th century, so I think it's just become so complex, so complicated, and so embroiled in white supremacy and anti-immigration rhetoric and anti-native feeling and sentiment as well, particularly in the 19th century that I think

yeah it's troubling really to think about the ways in which the kind of myths have continued to expand and change. I think some of that fascination nowadays is more to do with, I guess, trying to understand the history of colonisation itself, the archaeology of the site and what society would have been like and the lessons that that might have for the wider understandings of colonisation in the 16th and 17th centuries. Misha, thank you so much for taking us back to the Lost Colony and really digging down into those myths, the history and those gaps in between that are so fascinating and that keep us coming back and returning again and again. Thank you also, listener listener for spending time with us today on After Dark, you can access our entire back catalogue wherever you get your podcasts. And don't forget to leave us a five star review. It helps other people discover the podcast and helps us grow which is

no bad thing. See you next time. Transcribed by https://otter.ai you