After Dark: Myths, Misdeeds & the Paranormal - Most Famous Murder In Ancient Egypt

Episode Date: June 18, 2026

Millenia ago, a plot was hatched within the highest echelons of Egyptian society which ended with royal blood being spilt. This assassination, known as the Harem Conspiracy, and the following trial would fascinate historians for the next three thousand years... Who was behind the plot? How close did they come to seizing the throne? And what can archaeology tell us about Egyptian society as a whole?Our guest today is Dr. Campbell Price, Curator of Egypt and Sudan at Manchester Museum and honorary research fellow at University of Liverpool. He’s our go-to Ancient Egypt expert and the author of his newest book ‘Brief Histories: Ancient Egypt.’Edited by Hannah Feodorov. Produced by Tom Delargy. Senior Producer is Freddy Chick.Sign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries, with a new release every week and ad-free podcasts. Sign up at https://www.historyhit.com/subscribe.  You can take part in our listener survey here.All music from Epidemic Sounds. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Over 3,000 years ago, in the heart of ancient Egypt, a pharaoh was murdered. Not on the battlefield, not by a foreign enemy, but from within his own household. A conspiracy involving royal wives, trusted officials, even members of his inner court. And for centuries, no one could prove whether the assassination had actually succeeded. Until now. Today we are joined by Dr. Campbell Price to unravel one of ancient Egypt's most chilling mysteries, the harem conspiracy. Who was behind the plot?

How close did they come to seizing the throne? And what can archaeology teach us about the trials that followed? This is the assassination of Ramesses III. Welcome to After Dark. Hello and welcome to After Dark. I'm Anthony. And as you know, Maddie has been. rewilding the meadows of Great Britain and she will be back soon but we will leave her to her task

as we continue with stories and histories from the darker side of the past and in this episode we will be discussing one of the most famous murders in ancient Egypt, the assassination of Ramsey's the Third. And who better, once more to help us than Dr. Campbell Price, who is an Egyptologist as you well know because we've had Campbell on quite a bit on After Dark. He's one of our favorites. He is also the curator of Egypt and Sudan at Manchester Museum and honorary research fellow at University of Liverpool. And he is our go-to Egypt expert. As you know, his newest book is Brief History's Ancient Egypt and he also has a children's book out with Greg Jenner. And there is a new book in the works, Campbell, coming early next year, I believe, and I'm very, very excited about

that. I'll be back on then. How is it going before we get into today's, are you despair yet or are you all right? I'm despairing constantly, you know what the writing process is like, it's a constant internal battle but coming on podcasts like this really are great for clearing and clarifying your thinking. I know. I find it really useful, you know, if I'm stuck

in the writing process, which I am myself in the middle, though nowhere near as close to finishing as you are, but you're writing, you're writing, you're in the world, you're in the world, you're in the world, and then you have to go out into the real world and meet people and it's actually, it's good to have that to do where you're like, okay, and I know you're in the museum anyway, so you have

that all the time. But, you know, for for for me, it's a bit of a godsend sometimes. Right. Let's get on to this assassination. The most famous murder in ancient Egypt, my producers tell me. Who was Rameses the third? And why? It's a name I'm familiar with. Well, is it a name unfamiliar with actually because he's the third? So which of the Rameses am I familiar with? But actually, why does he linger with us today if indeed he does? Well, Anthony, we've got 11. Ramesses is to choose from. Yeah. Right. Okay. So if people have heard the name,

they'll probably be thinking of Ramesses the second, Ramesses the Great. I see. And that's important because Ramesses the Great lives in the previous century to our Ramesses. And Ramesses the Third is something of a fanboy for Ramesses the Second. And a lot of Ramesses the Third's monumental work, some of his battles, many of his children's names and his architectural choices are

directly related to the great Ramesses. So I think we've got to see him as someone trying to get back to this, these glory days of phronic history, when things are already definitely on the slide. And that's what makes Ramesses of the third actually much more intriguing than Ramsey's the second. Yeah, this is a very different time. We're going to talk about some of those things that are starting to unravel. We are in and around 1155 BCE for this particular history, so over 3,000 years ago now. But just before we get into the nitty gritty of this episode,

Ramseys, Ramesses. We were having a brief discussion before we started. It's a pronunciation quabble rather than it being different people. Yes. Or is it? It's a pronunciation thing, and we can't know for sure. The Ramesses, best known, Ramesses is the great Ramesses is the second. actually changes his own name partway through his reign.

Right. So he goes from Ramesu to Rameses. And then Rameses is the one that sticks. So that's why I'm saying Rameses. Right. Not Ramseys. It's very the artist formerly known as Prince of him to do it, although less of a departure, I suppose.

Right, let's get onto this assassination. And before we do, I want to talk about Egypt at this particular time. You mentioned already, Campbell, that we are dealing with maybe not the glorious empire that we might be a little bit more familiar with. We have some difficulties and tensions around this time, 1155 BC. Yes. Geopolitically, this is an interesting time in the Bronze Age. Different powers and balances of power are shifting in the Mediterranean and the Eastern Mediterranean. There are groups like the Sea peoples on the go. So this is a group of island-based people like the Pellissette.

They're moving around, the Eastern Mediterranean, and the Egyptians perceive them as a threat. Okay. So there's the geopolitical stuff. Then there is Egypt's internal dynastic history. Best to acknowledge that first. So Ramesses II rules for the earlier part of the 1200s, BCE. And he rules for 66 years.

So he's an old man when he eventually shuffles off the mortal coil and becomes a full god. And he's managed to outlive no fewer than 12 of his sons. So that creates a kind of a situation where the 13th son eventually inherits the throne. And just power structures are shaken a bit. So there are a series of not very good kings To put it simply After Ramsey's the second He is dynasty 19 and there's a change of dynasty

So there's a new family comes in New bloodline This kind of Araviste A guy called Seth Nacht Who says I'm the king now And it's his son Who is Ramesses the 3rd So we've got to understand Ramesses

The 3rd as a bit of a new kid on the block thinking, right, I need to prove myself. His dad doesn't live very long. Seth Nacht isn't around for very long. So he goes to the blueprint rulebook of kingship, which is, in recent memory, Ramesses II. And that's something to bear in mind. People will remember Ramesses the Second.

He's in living memory. So I don't know. I don't want to force the analogy, but Ramesses the second. is kind of an Elizabeth the second character who rules so long. People associate the whole idea of monarchy with that person. It's difficult, no matter how good you are, to come on maybe later in life after that. So basically that sets the tone for the next few decades in Ramesses the third opens his show, starts his reign in this milieu.

And of course, it's not, like you said there, it's not the same dynasty. So to push that in a... further. And apologies, because I know you don't want to stick to it too much, but, you know, at least with Elizabeth II, her son inherits the throne. And yes, okay, that does happen with Remesies II. But by the time we get to Ramesses the Third, we're into a new dynasty, which prompts another tangent question. Brace yourselves. We'll get back onto the topic in just a second. How many dynasties were there? But your tangent questions are always very good. Not always. So that was something I was thinking would be a good illustration. So I'm glad.

you've reminded me. So Ramesses, the third is dynasty 20, and we have 30 dynasties plus the Ptolemies, right? Right. So we're kind of two-thirds the way through in terms of time and in terms of the numbering of the dynasties. Another point which I think we're going to come back to, which is really the crux of the action,

of the bloody action, is that in ancient Egypt, I don't think there wasn't, well, there was a designated air, like a crown prince it's not this guy is the prince of Wales and we just acknowledge him no no

and I think well maybe it was actually in the more recent years of the British royal family that people died like fairly senior members of the royal family the children died so there were shifts it wasn't necessarily

the eldest son that got the throne so I think that creates a level of uncertainty which that uncertainty really fires the situation that leads to the demise of Ramesses this particular time, yeah, okay. I mean, yeah, you don't need to go back too far

in British monarchical history if you think about the 17th century. We have people who are commoners assuming the position of a king and all but name. But we also have different, not firstborn children taking the throne. I'm thinking about William and Mary, particularly there, and ousting, you know.

so, well, Mary was firstborn, but she wasn't the firstborn son. Anyway, look, I'm just saying you don't actually have to go back that far, even in the British monarchical tradition, to find that this is a strategic position as well as an inherited one. And it's actually only now that it's way less strategic. Okay, so I have here a little passage that was written when Ramesses III was crowned, and it says that four doves were, quote, dispatched to the four-quarters to the four-quarters. corners of the horizon to confirm that the living horace Ramesses the third is still in possession of his throne, that the order of Mott prevails in the cosmos and society. So this is quite

grand. Yeah, typical for an ancient Egyptian. That, I mean, that quotation is maybe from a slightly older translation, but basically the idea is, when the king comes to the throne, he he is the king immediately I don't think the ancient Egyptians really went in for what we would call a coronation in Westminster Abbey kind of style but

I mean you saw with the fairly recent coronation of Charles III there is very very very ancient symbolism embedded in that kind of ritual and you see it there in that quotation there is something about the king being announced in

proclaimed and claiming his right in the four cardinal directions. So there are scenes in temples where you see the king looking like he's doing baseball. And it's basically to hit a whatever you do in baseball, hit a home run. In the four cardinal directions. Not a baseball aficionado. Unlike me, of course. But this idea of the ancient Egyptians are very keen on this. Cardinal directions represent totality.

So the four directions, north, east, south, west. This states your claim. So the state level jargon, the kind of discourse, who knows what people were talking about in the farmers' fields, but at the state level on the temples of the king,

you get these very bombastic statements. Whether or not the king was really so great, whether he was battling or actually performing these rituals is kind of by the by. Right. Okay, I see. Now, although he is no Ramesses II, he's not so bad. I know we're in decline here. Ramesses the third, I mean. No, and I think for some Egyptologists, he is Egypt's last hero. He's the last of the great kings of the new kingdom. So this bracketing of time where we've got Hachipsud, we've got Tupmo's the the third, the so-called Napoleon of ancient Egypt.

We've got Tutankhamun, we've got Akanaten, we've got Ramesses the second. God, there's a lot of big names there. Yeah, that's a lot in a relatively short period. So in a way, Egypt was such a powerful, you know, entity that it was difficult to keep that level of dominance up. And I think Ramesses of the Third did okay.

And interestingly, thinking architecturally, So Ramesses II built this magnificent temple, his mansion of millions of years. So this is sometimes referred to in the literature as a mortuary temple, a funerary temple. It's nothing to do with mortuary rituals or death, really, or funerals. It is to do with the king existing as a god. So this is the key thing. The king is a god. After death, he will be fully socialized amongst the gods.

And so you need a building in which to celebrate this. So Ramesses the second makes this massive mansion of millions of years. Ramesses the third comes along and thinks, right, we're going to have a carbon copy of this pretty much. And so Ramesses the Third's temple is one of the best preserved temples in all of Egypt because of chance there was a massive Coptic Christian community lived there. And they plonked their houses around the ancient walls. So inadvertently, although they hated the pagans,

they saved Ramesi's temple. So Rameses is the Third's temple. So when you want to get a sense of what might a temple have been like in really ancient Egypt, Ramsey's the Third's one on the West Bank of Luxor is your best bet.

It is the place you go. You know, and this is terrible. I've never been to Egypt. I was about to ask you that before. No, I've never been. I should go. Yeah. And this is one of the problems

with hosting this podcast. Do people come on and I'm just like, I need to go now to sub-Saharan Africa and explore that civilization. And I'm just like, where am I going to get the time to do all of this? And the money, not to mention. But yes, you can write on the plane. It's useful.

It's more of the money than actually probably realistically of all the traveling I want to do. One of the things of Ramesses III's, the thirds, which we might come on to, you know, he's got a fair bit of statuary. You can now see that shown to great advantage in the Grand Egyptian Museum. So this only opened fully last November. Yeah. So in terms of, you know, if you're a fan of museums, I know a lot of people who have been saying,

I'm going to go to Egypt, I'm going to go to Egypt, I'm going to go to Egypt. And they've been waiting to the Grand Museum is open. So it's open now, so there's no excuse. Come here, tell me this. Again, tangent. How much does it cost to go to Egypt nowadays? Oh. Like a flight.

Not accommodation. We can sort that ourselves. Well, with the current political situation, I'm not sure. You can get a flight from Manchester. You used to be able to, for 350 pounds. Okay. Return. Yeah.

So it's not absolutely extortionate. And when you're in Egypt, it's fairly easy with some good advice to live cheaply. And Egypt is a wonderful place. So if you've not been, consider going, now is your time. Little to do. Now probably isn't your time, actually. Well, no, well, yes. When the jet fuel runs out.

You didn't realize you were going to come on here to sell Egypt to people, did you? No, I'm sure. The Egyptian tourism industry will be getting in touch with you very short. Thank you. At least I can do. Now, we have this idea that he is not all that bad, that he has some grand ideas about building this temple that you mentioned. Yeah. That some people are going, you know what, things aren't going great, but this is in terms of.

But there are some people who are like, we need to get rid of this guy. Yes. So there is some rumbling. Yes. And is this not just because of the economic struggles that are in this particular phronic era, but in general over a few generations, but is there anything particular that he's doing that people don't like that they're turning on him specifically at this time? It's difficult to see him doing anything that other kings aren't doing.

He seems to kind of, as I say, stick by the rulebook set by Ramsey's the second. But one thing we do know is we have a really, well, unique insight into everyday socioeconomic reality in the workers' town. that services the building of the tombs in the valley of the kings. So if you imagine you've got the king in the palace and he's probably moving around quite a bit, as is traditional in other monarchies of more recent times. So he's doing his progress.

There's not much actual evidence for how he lives his life, but the people who are building the royal tomb in the Valley of the Kings are stuck in one little village, which one sits abandoned eventually, not that long after the death of Ramsey's the third, all that stuff is left and all their notes and all their tombs and their chapels and their houses are preserved. So that is a really valuable insight into what is happening then.

So we have an unusual insight into labour relations. This was the PhD subject of my PhD supervisor, It's something I've heard a lot about. So you have the gang who work for the king, or not directly for the king, for the vizier, who is the top guy, the prime minister, if you like, and it is the vizier's responsibility to organize the people and to make sure the people are paid.

Because they are living not in a lush, arable environment, they're living on the edge of the desert in order to build the tomb, which is in the desert edge. So they are in a totally artificial and supplied, state-supplied environment. So if you don't have enough bread, you can't go and buy some bread, you've got to bread and water brought to you. And so we know through this very detailed documentation from the town, it's called Deer El Medina in modern Arabic, the village, the village next to the Valley of the Kings. we know that things get so bad that rations, the supply of rations breaks down,

and there is the first recorded strike in human history. Oh, I didn't know this. Is in the reign of Ramsey's of the Third. So think about how important that is to modern political history. Yeah. And social history and, you know, of this country, the first time people say, hang on and they say no to power, we're not doing it.

We're putting our tools down. And they go and they protest. and the vizier says, okay, right, I'll get you some stuff and carry on. Because it's so embarrassing. Yes, yeah. The king's tomb. It's not just they're building a motorway.

Yeah. They are building the tomb of a god. And if you stop building the tomb, you're compromising the full deification of the king. You're questioning that authority. You're questioning socially in terms of belief systems. It's a big deal. It starts to become bricks and mortar.

Well, I mean, not bricks and mortar, but it starts to become a piece of a thing rather than a belief system. It's just a human construction then. So the divine goes out of it almost. Indeed. So you can go and visit the Tomb of Ramesses III at the Valley of the Kings now.

It's been known since the very early days of Egyptology, what we might call Egyptology. So, you know, the 1700s. So it's been exposed for a long time. It's a big thing. So it would take a lot of effort to build. So you can just imagine walking through it at some point.

the sculptors and the masons downed their tools and said, nope, not doing it. So that's a very brave thing to do it. Radical, yeah. Imagine. So we have that unrest at one part of the social scale. And then I have this idea, which I don't know the ins and outs totally of, but the idea of the conspiracy of the harem or the harem conspiracy. So that sounds interesting in itself.

Again, I don't know the details, but I just want to. the impression that it gives me. It sounds like this is going to be very female-led, that it's going to be, again, and we'll talk about this, and you'll correct all the things I'm getting wrong, but it also sounds that it somehow is quite domestic in a way, because we're talking about harem in terms of wives and houses and homes and family units.

What exactly is it? Well, you're right. This is probably the defining moment of Ramesses III's life is his ultimate leaving of it. So the word harem is problematic in Egyptology because as so often the terminology we use is not based necessarily on the terms the ancient Egyptians might have used

and it's got this rather unintended and unfortunate association with Ottoman Turkish culture where women are blocked away and I don't think the ancient Egyptian court let's call it that. The court was quite like that. We have other evidence for slightly earlier than Ramsey's the third of women in the north of Egypt

in a very good agricultural area, the Fahum, basically managing a major textile business. So it flips any idea of these women are sealed away and they're not allowed to talk to anyone and they're attended by Unix. Actually, they're running a pretty impressive if not industrial

certainly production centre anyway so it's more complicated than the women of the harem are being locked away but you're right there's a domestic situation develops which related to something we said

before you know there is usually a designated air but as you said you know there's an element of strategy over inheritance So if you've got, so imagine you're an advanced, a year, imagine you're a king of advancing years and you've got several living children, sons,

and you think, well, the oldest one is not that great, or the one by the most royal mother, that's probably how we should think of it, is not the best, someone else who I think could do this better. you must make your favourites known or you make your, you know, choices or or proclivities known. That creates resentment for the mother of the intended heir, or the one who's overlooked to be the next king. Because if you are the queen mother, for one of a better term, that is great status. Yeah. Yeah.

You want to be the mother. And it's your function as well. and in a society that we're talking about in previous episodes, that values usefulness. Then for the queen to, or mother, but the queen in this instance, to produce the air is very useful. Yeah. She has fulfilled a big function in that society.

Yeah. And then that's been taken away from her. Yeah. And there is something always on the fringes of any discussion like this. There is some religious metaphysical consideration where... I am going to make this analogy. Yes, I'm going to do it. So later there is the selection of the sacred apis bull.

So this is a manifestation of the god Ptah, who's in the north of Egypt at Memphis. And kind of like the Dalai Lama, there's only one living at any one time. And the bull is a god incarnate and is worshipped and is asked questions and just lives a life of luxury. The bull's mother is also worshipped

because she has literally sired this young bull so there is something almost when a king becomes king his mother if she wasn't already becomes by association

of divine nature so you could see there would be a motivating factor here so Ramesses the third lives quite a long life he is coming up to a very important point in his reign, year 30, which is traditionally the time you celebrate

a Hebb Said. And Hebsed is a kind of festival of renewal. We might say Jubilee, but it's not like, you know, barges on the Thames and street parties, although there may have been street parties for the elite. So there seems to be a lot of organizing happening at this time. And this is when some people, and I say people, not just royal ladies, but people in the court, decide this might be the time to bump off Ramesses III and put in place our candidate for the next king. Oh, so it wasn't even a case that Ramesses III was going, Jim's my eldest son, but I don't love him very, he's a little, he needs a bit of help, but also we have Mark over here and I prefer him. So I was of the assumption that that's what was going on, but no, this is the court deciding we know who our candidate is.

Yes, I think it's more as you suggest. So there is an heir apparent who does become the next king. Spoiler. Ramsey's the fourth. Surprise, surprise. But there is another candidate who may, for whatever reasons, lost history, may have been more popular. And so there is a move in the palace. And by palace we can almost pinpoint this.

When I'm talking about this history, you've got to imagine, as probably quite easy for a historian, these kinds of things must have happened a lot. We only get an insight into some of them where there's documentation. Usually in ancient Egypt, there is no documentation. There's a handful of other people where it looks like an assassination. it becomes quite common in the Ptolemaic period where the Ptolemys are just back-stabbing, bloodthirsty people. People are kind of more aware of that, right?

Because there are historians recording it. Yes. There's not a tradition of that usually. What we have for Ramesses III, and it is an absolutely astonishing survival of a historical document, there is a list of perpetrators in this. Haram conspiracy, although let's drop the word harem. This

attempt on the king's life for modern antiquities dealers it was such a big piece of papyrus. They cut it into different bits and sold it to different people, but now we can we know, we know, based on the handwriting and the context and the

contents, we know that it's one document and this is, it's not really court proceedings, we do occasionally get court proceedings a bit later in Egyptian history, but this says a list of the culprits and what happens to them. Okay, well, let's start with some of those culprits. I have two main people here that we will unpack in a little bit more detail.

Wait, is she a culprit? So, Taiye, am I saying that correct? Yeah, we don't know for sure. I would say T. T. T. T, I, Y.E. And she's the Queen of Egypt.

a secondary wife to Ramesses the third Wait, queen of Egypt Is she the queen of Egypt? No, not really So the queen, there's no word for queen is king's great wife

So there tends to be only one Great King's wife at any one time And she is the top wife So she would be called the queen So this is not the queen It's a secondary wife Right, right

So she is a secondary wife What does it mean to be a secondary wife? I'm presuming you're still quite lauded, you still have a bit of influence, you probably have your own court that's around you. What are the limitations there? Oh, that's a good question. I think you don't get the public recognition on monuments.

Right. So you don't have that potential divinity if you're providing the air or whatever, okay? Yes, unless the first great royal wife, great king's wife dies, and then you get a promotion. That happens in the reign of Ramsey's the second because he lives so long. There are several great royal wives. So the average expectation would be, yeah, you live a life of luxury, no doubt, and you have perhaps children with the king. But those children, well, those children just hang around.

I mean, this is the problem with royal children that are not in the direct line of succession. That have a job, yes. Modern echoes of this issue in the UK. you then have to kind of keep yourself to yourself but if you're ambitious I think you're well connected enough as seems the case with this conspiracy to make things happen

and this is what T does she takes matters into her own hands and based on that documentation that we have she seems to be the ringleader of what can only be described as a coup yes I think that's the word right That's what we're looking at here. It's a coup.

Now, I love this idea that T is a political figure and that she is working those ties, whatever they might be, whatever courtly machinations that she's going on with, that she is positioning herself, and she's using these networks to position her son, who is not supposed to be the heir, because she's a secondary wife. So tell us a little bit who is he?

and tells a little bit about him. So this guy, Penta Warrett, is the son of T. And he is in this courtly milieu. He, well, we don't know really what agee is. He's not a toddler. He's not a child. He's probably, you know, a teenager or on the cusp of adulthood in ancient age. Okay.

A viable alternative. I see. Because remember, we're into year 30. of King Ramesses the 3rd. So Ramesses the 3rd has been on the throne. He's been around. He's been around. So he must be quite old. Yeah. So quite legitimately, this

son could be in his 20s. So T wants to position him over his half-brother who is ultimately Ramesses the 4th to be the next king. And so she enlists the help

of other people at court. And this is where this document is very useful because we have a whole list of the people that were involved. Oh, go on. Who does she get? Because this is no small matter. This could as soon as she starts mumbling this or whispering this, that could be the end for her. But

to a certain extent, for a while at least, okay, we know that Ramsey's the fourth becomes Ramsey's the fourth. So this is going to ultimately fail in its desire. But who does she get on board at this point? So there are the people closest to the king

That's what you want to do if you can just try and assassinate a king She gets the people closest to the king So they clearly don't like the air for whatever reason Yes there must be some motivation Here that's that's also a good point And there must be a lot of politicking going on That we will never know about So the people closest to the king

Are those who are regularly in royal service For want of a better term The butlers The people who are literally giving him a drink are the ones who are most effective to, you know, bump him off. So there are a number of

high officials who must have direct contact to the king. You must be very important to be in that position. You know, it's not an ordinary foot soldier or a scribe, but as you say, if you're Queen tea and you speak to the wrong person and they report you to someone else, you're for the high jumpites.

suspect. So the plot clearly develops quite quickly because a large number of people are implicated. So there are dozens of people. So she must get, I mean just back projecting from what we know happens, she must be quite charismatic.

Yeah, I'm imagining so, yeah. And the one she's the pentuerre who she's trying to maneuver into position, he must be viable. But yeah, it doesn't work out in the end. No. But we do get a very dramatic assassination in a very dramatic setting. So you had mentioned, you've already, you've teased us with the idea that there is a 30th anniversary jubilee slash not jubilee occurring the Hebsed. Yes, Hebsed, yeah.

And this is, this is going, this is part of the celebrations are going on. So we're celebrating 30 years of ramble. Some people are celebrating 30 years of Ramesses the third. but this is where the assassination attempt, or the coup, as you've been calling it, it rings very coup-like to me, this is where this is supposed to be enacted. There seems to be planning around the time of the Jubilee, not Jubilee, the Hebb said, because it seems he lives into past year 31. Okay. So there's something has happened, perhaps an attempt has happened, who knows. but the first attempts don't seem to be physical.

They seem to be using black magic. So there are magicians involved who take, you know, this is known from other contexts where you take an image of someone you want to do harm to and you do things to the image and you hope that that's going to have an effect on the living person. Remember, we're talking about the king of Egypt

who is the ultimate conduit between humanity and the gods. So maybe metaphysically he has got protection that the conspirators hadn't thought of. So ultimately, up until fairly recently, the last 15 years, it was assumed that Ramsey's the third had survived the attempt and the documentation related to people who were caught trying to kill him. But as I say, with ancient Egypt, in some cases, quite astonishingly, we've got the tombs of the people. We've got these accounts, detailed

documents about what happened. In Liverpool World Museum, there is a belt, one of the most beautiful pieces of ancient embroidery with Ramsey's the Third's name on it. So we've got his clothing. Oh, it's from the time. It's not just like merch.

No, no, it's not merch. It must be from his time. And we have his body. So not only do we have the stories, the documents, the monuments, the history. We have the people, the protagonists themselves, those that were allowed and were treated to the full ritual of mummification. So Ramesses the third's body was examined. Previously, it was assumed he had not died of violent death, but this maybe sounds a note of caution about the reliability of some of these examinations

that it was only recently that CT scans, which themselves can be, you know, not entirely reliable, the CT scan data showed he'd had his throat cut beyond reasonable doubt. And lots of biomedical people have looked at it and it does seem to be clear.

He was, you know, given the chop in the bloodiest way. So he also had one of his toes chopped off. Right. I mean, you could survive that now. Yeah, I think, but a blood. But having your throat cut, yeah, you're not coming back from that. So what then happens, I mean, the plot must be discovered pretty soon because immediately Rameses the fourth seems to take the throne.

And it is him who says, it is he who says, right, all of you, people, I've suspected you, you're now going to be tried for these crimes. And you can imagine killing a God king, regicide in ancient Egypt. It's a pretty serious matter. It's not a minor misdemeanor. So in this transcription, not of the court proceedings I say,

but as I say, it's a list of the people, the dozens of people. If you were lucky, you got to take your own life. Yes. I've seen this in other, it's a punishment that's almost gifted to you in a way to punish yourself in many ways. But I just want to go back to one thing, Campbell, which I think is so utterly fascinating. And I think it's when historians come together on these things and they work on vastly different time periods, it can be so enlightening because what is striking me as as, as, as, as, as, as, just mind-boggling for me, it works on the 17th, 18th century, 19th century,

is that we would know, right? We would have all of these things. But it's fascinating that it took a CT scan to definitely say that this person, I mean, I'm sure there was theories, I'm sure that people thought maybe, but then there was also theories that he survived. And so like the fact that something so seismic can happen,

but that the documentation does, doesn't always draw it together in a really, you know, conclusive way that is satisfying for a modern consumption audience-driven thing where we're like beginning, middle and end. That presents possibilities, yes, but of course frustrations, but then, you know, it's why we hear so many times in the media about different discoveries linked to ancient Egypt, because there's still so much unknown that there's still so much one can find. It's very rare that you're like, well, we found something brand new about the Civil War. No, because they were writing it down at the time.

We know exactly what, you know, I'm talking about the 17th century civil war in England. So what we know is that there was a conspiracy, and we're going to get to the document that tells, and you've already hinted out that tells us about that conspiracy, we weren't for a long time sure that there was even a murder. Yeah, you would just think he died in actual death and the next king came along if you hadn't had the document. So let's talk about that document then, because that's going to be quite a, it sounds like a very exciting. document if you are an Egyptologist or any kind of historian. It's not a court proceeding per se. No.

But tell us what it does show about this particular event. So it lists the people involved in the conspiracy. So you have the royal wife tea. You have these high court, not high court, court officials who are of high status. You have the butlers, there's whole band of butlers. involved. But then, and this is the really creepy bit about it that I love, they are punished. These people are punished,

of course. So killing a king is dreadful, of course, and the king's son, because let's remember Ramesses the fourth is the son, the biological son of Ramsey's the third. So someone's killed your dad. You might want to look into that. Yeah, you're not happy with the people and you are now the fair. so you're going to do something terrible to them.

So some people, decorously, are allowed to take their own lives. The chief culprits, it's not made absolutely clear what happens to them, something terrible. But then there is a lower rung of kind of accomplices that have their, and this was not uncommon, I think, for fairly serious crimes. They were sentenced to having their nose and ears cut off. So not only is that not great for your health, but it's also a visible marker of you have done something really bad. But they were left alive. But they were left alive. So you're then literally marked for life as having done something really terrible.

So that's bad. But then the really creepy detail is in the document that lists the people, it talks about. people and sometimes it deprives them of their names which is really a really kind of kicking the culprit when they're down and in some cases the names have been changed so there was a guy whose name meant ray the sun god sun god ra or ray loves him his name was changed to ra hates him it's not the kind of name someone would ever have and it's just i find that just really quite chilling your whole identity, not just your body, because you wouldn't be allowed to be buried conventionally,

but your name and essentially part of your soul is damned because you've done such a terrible thing, you can't be allowed to exist. And intriguing part of all this, you might wonder what happened to paint or wear it, this lad. A potential other pharaoh. So again, pinch of soul, here because it's difficult to say

for sure because of the process of mummification changing the body so much. But we have Ramsey's the Third's body. Sure. And we have in the same cache of royal bodies found at the end of the 19th century, an unidentified man wrapped in a ritually unclean

goat skin. Ooh! Who, it seems, genetically, is related to Ramsey's third. So he's been given a burial but not given a not a proper burial. Not done the whole ritual. And again there's this really creepy sense of okay we're going to do

something with him. You would expect for really capital crimes and we have other evidence for this. Not only are you executed in a terrible way for example by being put on a spike and allowed to just die your body is burned. So the whole concept of cremation is total anathema to an ancient Egyptian. You need your body

to become a sark, a divine ancestor being. So if you're burned, that's terrible. But in a way, there's this sense of humiliation that this man, if indeed it is pent aware, is wrapped in this way. He doesn't seem to have been treated

in the way you might expect. A prince of the blood should be treated. So that's kind of creepy. Another weird, maybe not so weird, But fitting echo of this story is that when the body of Ramsey's the 3rd was found and was unwrapped, let's be clear, these people are being unwrapped, the bandages are being taken off them by inquisitive people in the 19th century. When Ramsey's the 3rd is exposed, a writer in the 1920s, someone I'm quite interested in a South African painter called Winifred Brunton,

is making sketches and watercolor portraits of the people while they were alive. So she's making the mummified dead set for their portraits. She's imagining what they must have looked like when they were alive, which is a very subjective business. And they all look quite chocolate boxy, like Caucasian Europeans. AI of its day kind of.

Yes. AI reconstruction thing of its day. Yes. Which is of great interest to me of late. But Winifred Brunton says, in a very popular book, kings and queens of ancient Egypt, she says,

there's a look of real rage and hate in this particular guy. Well, she did, they would have known about the Hiram conspiracy, so-called, at that time, but they didn't know about the body, the examination of the body. And so in her very popular book,

she has her watercolor miniature painting reproduced and then she has the pretty gruesome face of the mummified body and there is good evidence I've found that suggests that the producers at Universal Films in 1930 for the 1932 film used that as the model of the Boris Karloff the ultimate vengeful mummified body and they used that as the model and so it's not just knowing that there is this mummified ancient Egyptian

is because someone has said, God, what a look of vengeance and hate and disappointment. She says he's got a look of disappointment. Wow. So that just gives me a bit of a shiver. And it clearly, in some ways, helped make the image of that

moving mummified body popular. Right. Well, I've got an image. Ah, you've got an image. Would you like to see what that looks like? Oh, okay. What am I looking at here now? Right, so is this, right, listeners at home, this is not a visual medium, so I should describe what I'm looking at and be less shocked. I have two images actually, as I scrolled down. One is of an image of a pharaoh? Yeah. I don't know if it's Ramesses. I'm presuming it's one of the Ramesses, whether it's, Three or four, I don't know. Looks quite young, so I'm imagining maybe four. He's wrong, he's wrong. Difficult to see.

Okay, we don't know. Inean anyone, but. Okay, yeah, yeah, sure. You're right with Kate. Yeah, sure. He's a hero. Okay, so we've got that and it seems to be holding a receptacle and looking directly at it.

Is it on fire? Is there smoke coming out of it? I'm aware that the last time we spoke about a receptacle, there was a heart in it. So I'm just bearing that in mind. So that's, that's, that's, top image. And then we have this what would be stereotypically referred to as a mummified

body who has been unwrapped. Yes? Partly, yeah. Partly. Oh yes, I see the hands and yeah, okay. And the face is is this who you were talking about? This kind of vengeful, disappointed looking face.

Hmm. Right. So this, so this we think is the bottom images Ramsey's the third. we think do we know the top is it also Ramesses the 3rd? Yes

Okay So this is image and reality in a way So that's what the Egyptians wanted you To see on the top And then this is what we left to us And that is actually the body How do we know it's Ramesses the 3rd?

Well he had been reburied His tomb had been robbed A couple of centuries Well maybe less than a couple of centuries After his death And he was moved And was put in a kind of shoddy

secondary use of a coffin originally his coffin must have been probably gilded wood or solid gold and on the outside of that secondhand coffin is a text that says this is the body of Ramsey's the third that'll do us

that pretty reliable historical document but as you said he's not entirely unwrapped so you see his hands are kind of padded like he's wearing gloves or mittens and there is a shroud or a kind of scarf at his neck

and that was used in the Boris Karloff, 1932 Mummy film. Okay. But it really is, yeah, not a pleasant image. No, no, it's not. But you know what is striking me even beyond that? And again, it relates to unpleasantness in many ways. I'm looking at the contrast of, as you said, what they wanted us to know and what we have.

and you know, often I'll decry the Victorians quite lightheartedly on this podcast. But sometimes it's warranted because actually what we end, it's so tricky, isn't it? Because here we are, if that was on display somewhere, I would probably go and see it

out of curiosity. I certainly would have had in the 19th century. There's no point in trying to layer over modern sensibility with that. Yes. In the 19th century, we would have all been there because this is what we would have been curious about.

But it does, we still try to honour the wishes of the dead, don't we? And we still try to uphold some of that respect and give them what they wished for. And really it just strikes me that they have, and we have, I suppose, robbed that from these particular individuals. And I know there is an awful lot of conversation around the display of bodies and remains and from, from. from ancient Egypt. But that's a very striking example right there where it's, I don't know, I suppose in one sense, there's two lessons from it, right?

On one side, you're going at the end of the day, these people are people in terms of how we relate to them and, you know, ashes to ashes and all that kind of thing. And then on the flip side, it's, but it's not how they were viewed in their own day. And it's not how they saw themselves. It's not how the people around them saw them. and we've literally unraveled that dignity that they were afforded. It was meant to be afforded them, absolutely.

It's tricky, isn't it? You're right. And I think that's a point worth making. You know, it's like, I always say it like a kid at a birthday. Like you give them something wrapped up and you've got to unwrap it because there's something inside I want to see. So you can actually see Ramesses the Third's body in Cairo in the National Museum of Egyptian Civilization.

in a very quiet gallery. You can't take your phone out. You're not really meant to speak. So it's a certain ambience, but you can see that. It as it is. As he is in that photo. But equally, you know, the whole process of trying the assailants and the conspirators was to try and punish them

for doing something bad to him and for, you know, compromising his. dignity and killing him. So the idea seems fairly clear in phronic texts and imagery that the body of the deceased, the sach, is meant to be radiant and bound and gold-covered mask and not exposed in that way. So it's difficult to get around that at that period the mummified dead were meant to be put in a coffin and buried underground and not disturbed for want to a better term. So by ancient Egyptian belief, the king or whoever is deceased lives through the other image. So it's nice to juxtapose them because he's got his name there.

He's shown as ageless. It's not that he's young or old. He's just ageless. He's God. And that's how he was believed to exist. But also we have this extraordinary case in this case in particular where you have the historical legacy, this uncanny survival. of the body, and then the historical document that describes the people who bumped him off. So it kind of triangulates to making a really intriguing story, which I think is more intriguing

than Ramsey's the second, because you get something of the kind of motivations of the people. Something is, you talked about the desecration of his body in his own time through murder, which I think is actually really useful for us to think with. which led me to think about, I'm always fascinated by this idea in more early, modern and modern times about disbelief when there is just this widespread thing of going, this is what people believed in, be that witchcraft, be that, you know, again, I'm talking about the 17th century, say.

I know your answer is going to be we don't know and that there is no evidence. But I'm just curious as to the idea of disbelief in these societies. there's nothing is there there's nothing to point us towards people going oh my God look they're doing they're doing the sacking again

well do you know there there are some sources that talk about that have a a sceptical tone to them so you do get texts that say

well lemmon carpidem live for the moment because you know no one's coming back from there the beyond so there is a

certain note of Yeah, gosh, all of this, it always reminds me of the Terry Pratchett book Pyramids where it's all of this investment in the afterlife of the king pyramids of dead kings, which might drain the economy. And who knows maybe part of the reason Ramesses, the third, presided over a kind of weakened state was because so much wealth went into the valley of the kings. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You know, there could be a corollary there. There could be a connection. So I think there was skepticism, but you cannot imagine, of course, there wasn't modern scientific knowledge where people would say, ah, you're just talking rubbish, I know the truth. There must have been, yeah, some healthy social skepticism that might have thought. Descent or, yeah, yeah, social dissent, you know, not, not. I'm not going along with this. But I'm also not unsettling the whole societal balance that has been created at the same time. Yeah, I mean, witness the strike.

Because would you strike against a living God if you really believed he was a living God? See, this is, yeah, this is, yeah, yeah, yeah. What is the, we're told they believe that in real terms. But what does their belief, what do the real terms of that belief mean? How does that manifest itself? Like, I mean, you know, there's been a lot of times. talk recently in the media about the divine right of kings, which doesn't exist in England, although people still think that it does to a great extent. But that's not how we are told

that the king rules now, or even if he does rule technically. But even in the time periods, even the 17th century, let's say, there are people who are just like, oh, why are you talking about? It's just a man on a chair. Like, you know, but this is far more of a modern. or just pre-modern mindset that we're coming into here. We can't compare those two things. But I'm just always, you know, again, if you talk about Salem and this belief system that people are caught up in again, 17th century, I know, and apologies for drawing these comparisons, but there was always people, despite the big swell of belief and much going,

what are you doing? Yeah. And it's just, I'm fascinated by that because I think those voices, they'll always really be, they're often missing from the record, even in the 17th century. or 18th century. But I just think there would be such an interesting counter to some of the things that we take as absolute. Yeah, and I think it is very important to nuance these big monumental beliefs, especially with Egypt. Just on the train down, Anthony, I was reading a book by the great Egyptian author, Nobel laureate Nagib Mahfus. It's called A Drift in the Nile. And there's a line in it, he says, it doesn't surprise him that ancient Egyptians believe the king was a god, but it seems far-fetched that the king himself would believe he.

was a god. So there is a healthy skepticism I know amongst my current Egyptian friends about big concepts. So you've got to allow people in the past the same leeway or the freedom to be a little bit outside the standard strictures of... That there's variation somewhere. Yeah, there is variation. And I wonder with the death of Ramesses III whether, I don't know, because... Because it seems like there were attempts made through magic.

And if you didn't get a successful outcome, whatever side of the debate you were on, you might wonder, am I doing something wrong? Are the gods genuinely protecting him and keeping him alive? Or once you'd bumped him off, he can't be that divine because I've just killed him. Yeah. And it is that thing as well going, we're going to have to finish this episode at some point, Campbell. But there is that idea of going, okay, step one appeal to the gods because he is one. And then step two, I'll just do myself.

Yeah, there must have been that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's an interesting climb down. I was trying to go there. Okay, listen, one question which is off topic entirely. Let's leave poor old Ramesses to himself. If there was, I love these hypotheticals. I don't know why I'm asking you, but I'm just genuinely curious.

If there was an artifact or a document or something that you understand and that your colleagues understand to be missing or destroyed or gone, that you're like, if we just had that one thing, that one piece of material culture, that one document, whatever it might be, that could fill in a gap in the archive that you just cannot get to grips. What would you want to bring back? Oh, that's a tough, tough, tough question.

I mean, related to... I won't say something about everyday life, the life of the common man, right? Sure. Because that's... We need more information on that. But equally, there are so many intriguing characters. you would love the same level of detail as that conspiracy papyrus for I don't know what's

happened to hat-chip suit for example my favorite pharaoh yeah or I don't know like other people that lived at what seems to be a historical critically moment maybe it wasn't historically critical but the discovery of those papyri albeit chopped into pieces shows that there are documents. There is essentially the diary of a pyramid builder known. So these things are out there, whether they await discovery under the sand or they're in museums

and just haven't been identified. That's the thing that intrigues me most. I think that's still possible. But something that was of comparable, intriguing detail to Eurameses, the third papyrus. Yeah, yeah. I'd just be on the hunt, I think.

If I was an Egyptologist, I was like, I can't rest. I'm going to have to find some of these things. Look, I'm going to stop holding you ransom to my random foibles of information. Thank you so much for taking us through that it's just, it is really thrilling to find something that almost step by step as much as you can in ancient Egypt takes you through. And this is why historians love prime resource material because it takes you back in time. Yeah, yeah, for sure. If you are sitting in front of that document, which I never have, of course, but like for the people who have, that's going to transport you. That's time travel as close as we can get.

It just really brings these things. It makes us feel something about these things. And I think that's what really appeals to people about history. Right, I'm going to stop rabbiting on. Thank you so much for listening to us. I hope you enjoyed this episode. I think there was so many fascinating and intriguing questions and thoughts that have come from that. If you have any other ideas for episodes that relate to ancient Egypt or, or in fact,

anything else. You can let us know on AfterDark at HistoryHit.com. That's AfterDark at Historyhit.com. You can find me at Anthony Delaney History on Instagram. Campbell, where can they find you? At Egypt MCR. There you go. Find us both. Follow us along and you'll get more lovely history pieces there from either the 17th century for me at the moment or Camel just Veronica Egypt. And until next time, as ever, happy listening.