After Dark: Myths, Misdeeds & the Paranormal - Murder In The Medici Court

Episode Date: July 27, 2026

In Medici Florence there were two ways of maintaining power - one was money and the other was murder. Isabella de’ Medici was the believed daughter of the Medici patriarch, a patron of the arts and a sparkling wit. But that meant nothing to her own husband, who murdered her, or her own brother, who turned a blind eye.Maddy and Anthony are joined by Estelle Paranque author of numerous books, including most recently Thorns, Lust and Glory: the Betrayal of Anne Boleyn.This episode was edited by Amy Haddow. The producer was Tomos Delargy. Senior Producer is Freddy Chick.Sign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries, with a new release every week and ad-free podcasts. Sign up at https://www.historyhit.com/subscribe.  You can take part in our listener survey here.All music from Epidemic Sounds.Voting is now open for the Listener's Choice Award at this year's Podcast Awards. Click here to place your vote! Thank you! https://www.britishpodcastawards.com/voting Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Listener, never fear tis I, Dr. Anthony Delaney from the After Dark podcast. And I am possessing your phone or your car radio or whoever it is that you listen to podcasts to ask you to vote for us in the Listeners Choice Award at this year's British Podcast Awards. Ooh, it's that time of year again. You can vote for us while you're folding laundry or learning about mass poisonings or while you assemble furniture and contemplate mutiny, which I would mutiny if I was assembling furniture, or while you're lost in a graveyard that you thought was going to be a shortcut, but now you find yourself in the bowels of hell. Either way, you can simply go to

www.w.com British Podcastawards.com forward slash voting and search after dark. Okay, off you go and do that, and I promise we'll stop possessing your phone. Thank you, love you, bye, bye, bye, bye, bye, bye, bye, bye, bye, bye, bye, bye. In 1576, one of the most prominent and respected women, of Renaissance Italy died suddenly. Rumors of murder spread like wildfire. Was Isabella de Medici the victim of an honour killing? How much truth lay behind the accusations of adultery that surrounded her? And what does her story reveal about gender, reputation and power at the height of Medici rule? Today we're investigating the life, death and enduring mystery of a woman who, whose final days have fascinated historians for centuries.

From the heart of Renaissance Florence, this is After Dark. Hello and welcome to After Dark, I'm Anthony. And I'm Maddie. And today we are discussing a family, well, a specific person within a family, but a family that we've never actually talked about on After Dark before. And I don't know how this is possible. I'm talking about the Medici's and in specific Isabella de Madiichi. And who better to do this history with us,

Then Professor Estelle Peronk. Estelle is a socio-professor of history at Northeastern University London. She is author of numerous brilliant books, including, and I love this title, Estelle's lust and glory. Great title. The betrayal of Anne Boleyn. Estelle, welcome to After Dark. Thank you so much for having me, guys. Or should I call you Estelle a parent-kew?

No, you shouldn't. Okay, yeah. She will not answer to that. Oh, gosh. Mispronunciations of Estelle's name aside, which we were last. about off-mic. We are going to be talking about a woman with a slightly easier name to say, Isabella de Medici. Now, people might have heard the Medici family will get into who they were. We're in 1576 in Florence. She is Princess, Isabella de Medici. Who is she? How important

is she in this world, in this Florentine city, this kingdom? What's going on? Situate us, please. Okay, so first, like, so happy to be here. And I'm going to get a bit intense, so I apologize in advance. But for me, it's a story that is so important because probably not told enough. And let's find out who are our main characters here, especially with Isabella de Medici. I really love Isabella de Medici because she's a patron of the arts, really well educated. And you know when we say well educated for women? Of course, babe.

But at the same time, actually, at the time. it's quite rare. You know, it's not as common as you think. And also I think this, I don't want to make a bit of a competition, but you have a different level of good education, especially at that time. And here, Isabella de Medici, is the daughter of Cosimo, the first, the Medici, Grand Duke of Tuscany, cousin, second cousin of my favorite, one of Catherine the Medici.

Arguably the more famous Padici. Yeah. Arguably, I would say she is with Mary de Medici maybe because that's, and we're going to talk about what the Middachi managed to achieve because it's quite incredible. But Catherine Medici is definitely, yeah, one of my favorite queens ever. And despite the fact that there's lots of dark legend around her and, you know, supposed to she has killed people where she hasn't and things like that. We don't know her on the show yet.

We need to do her at some point. So now we're going to. coming back on. Yes, yes. Yeah, absolutely. You'll come back and do this one. Let's do this episode first. Yes, Isabella.

Isabella, basically. And I think what's very interesting about the Midiichi family is that here we're going to travel back a bit in time because you set up in 1576 what we're going to talk about. But to understand, and I think it's very, very important here, the Midiichi is a family of bankers in Florence. And they were, you know, I have. hate to say this, you know, saying that ambition is not good, but extremely ambitious. But you have to understand at that time, everyone is ambitious.

The one who loses are just not going to say they're ambitious because they're lost. I'm sorry to be. And how you get power, you get power with money and murders. And there's a lot of black legend ransomedity. Most of it is kind of true. But I think we can also say that lots of it is also amplified. because when you're a winner that should not have won because you're a banker, you're from the low classes

and you manage to grow, you're not really liked by the other nobles family. So like I think that, you know, of all the kind of reputation they have, I'm not saying that's not true. Absolutely not. I think there's not like, you know, if you look at the evidence and the archives, you can say, it's still, that's kind of true. It's there, it's there. But at the same time, I do believe that it's massively amplified.

And I think that's it is very interesting. For our case, I just want to explain to you that Cosimo de Medici is very influential, very powerful. But the problem is, you're never truly powerful until you make the right alliances. What I'm trying to say is that you can't sit on past achievements or what your family has managed to get for you. You have to consolidate what you have or better to make sure that it grows. And I think that for Cosimo, I really like Cosimo and I'm going to tell you why. I mean, I'm going to tell you why.

It's not how I really like him. You might as well. You're here. You might as well tell us why. We're listening. There's not. There's no. I mean, the way I said it with the line, I was like,

there's a crush here. Now there's no crush. Not with this one. But what I want to tell you is that I, the reason why I know Cosimo a bit well, I don't know if I can say that. He's been dead for 500 years, but I'm still going to say it,

because of his letters with Katham de Midechi and I'm going to tell you something a bit sexy here I know after dark I think we can say sexy stuff after dark absolutely as well that's acceptable Catherine Domeny is going to tell Kossimo her cousin the things that were not working in the bedroom

with her husband and some of the letters we have where she says what she had to do and how Henry the second's mistress is going to help her get And so we have Isabella, the daughter of Cosimo, Cosimo who's very close to his cousin who is Queen of France. So the Medici managed to get two queens on the, you know,

two of their women in a way on the French throne. So Catherine de Medici later on Married a Medici. But they have very, very strong people in their family. Cosimo is one of them. As I said, the Grand Duke of Tuscany is not a small title. And he wanted to consolidate. He wanted to get more power, more ambition. So he's going to marry Isabella, his daughter, and he loved his daughter.

We have something very weird here. Yes, I mean, this relationship is really interesting, isn't it? It's very interesting. I mean, I think just to remind the listeners as well that Italy in this moment is not a unified entity. It is all these different kingdoms. And there is political power is all to play for. And that's been worse for 60 years between France, Spain, well, all in Roman. empire and in Spain as well.

Like, as you said, very divided, very complex with different powers. And there's a sort of race to get more power. You know, it's a really kind of intense moment. But this relationship, I mean, I think the Medici is so interesting because they have, as you say,

these really powerful, strong women in the family. They do. And yet the relationship between women and power and how well or badly the men around them take that does vary in their stories. So I'm really interested in the fact that her father, Cosimo, is supportive and, I think it's fair to say, protective of her. Is that right? So, okay, I love that you said that because that's one thing that I love about that story. I love, first of all, that Isabella the Medici, as I told you, very well educated, that comes from your father.

Like, I'm sorry, or your mother, obviously. I'm not trying to say, you have mother, nothing. But in terms of giving her the permission to become educated in the access. You have to have kind of one of your male relatives to be highly supportive of you. And not only that, I think with Cosimo, what touches me, personally, because I really love these stories of, you know, father and daughter that are very strong and they have a strong bond. Because he, he did a few things. First of all, he ensured her education that was at very, very high level. So what I want to tell you about this is like, not only Isabella de Meiji herself is very intelligent. She's definitely the favorite.

That's going to be a problem. that we're going to discuss. The favorite amongst her siblings. Yes. She's definitely the favorite. He loves her too. It's very clear. Even in the, yeah, in the evidence we have, they have a very strong bond.

He really loves her. And you could say he favored her on so many levels. And we're going to explain how far he went because he did something very unusual for the time. But what I thought was really also interesting is that for Cosimo, I felt like when you've read the sources, I feel like he's trying to match. His cousin, who's cousin? You know, he's thinking, my cousin is Queen of France. I want us, our family, to be at that level of education. I don't, do you see, do you see what?

So that's kind of like, especially because of all the wars, because of everything that's happening in Italy, they really want to show that Italy can or the Dutchie can be a main player. And I think that's very important here because it impacts her as well and who she's going to marry because her father wanted. it and then what happened next? Because it's so crazy the relationship she's going to have with her on this band. Do you think there's a world in which Cosmo evidently thinks very highly of his daughter

and he sees her value in terms of educating her? Do you think there's a sense in which he sees her as an investment? Because she is a commodity to be traded on the open market in terms of marriage. When you're women, you always are. That's why I think it's crazy when you talk about noble women. I've had that discussion with so many people and I'm going to get intense again but like that really annoys me

when we say that noble women had an easy life when really all the evidence and I'm sorry to say it's not because yes you're not going to be afraid of not being able to eat that is true you're going to have a bed you're going to have a roof over your head all is fine but the way you're treated you can be I'm sorry to say it's sold

but in a way you're sold you can be shipped away you're 12 or 13 sometimes you have to sleep with someone who's 50 and disgusting and smelly and the scrutiny on your body and how it works and then you have to give birth and you're so and it racks your body

I'm sorry I'm just think about all these young men the fear of it it's different for his I mean she's still like he loves his daughter at the same time he wants to advance the name of a Medici

and he's going to make alliance with the Orsini's who are in Rome, a very, very important noble family in Rome but he doesn't sell her to someone old, disgusting, he thinks about it and he sells her to someone who's slightly one year younger

than her. And they are young at this time, right? Yeah, they're 30. Early teams. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're quite young. Which is normal at the time, obviously. But here, what's unusual is when they are almost the same age. Catherine admitted she had the same, she was the same age as her husband. And I feel, I feel for these women,

I feel like the relief when you say, oh, that's not a disgusting twat. I can just say, oh, that's going to be good. I mean, if it's not going to be good, at least I don't have to deal with this because we know that they, those, this couple didn't consummate the marriage until a few years later.

And I think it's normal because at this age, maybe, you know, like, it was a formality, rather than anything intimate, of course. Yeah, yeah. Can I just check because you've already mentioned some move? I know we're going to get into this a little bit more, but you mentioned about Isabella being the favourite.

Yes. But what she's not is the air? No, she's not the air. And so what is the relationship there? How is she seen by her siblings, particularly the male heir? Is this a source of tension even early on or do we not know? I think, yeah. So we do have some evidence of tensions.

And it's very good that you said. She's basically between two brothers. And the eldest one, I think it's because of what his father is going to do, and we're going to go into that, that created a bit of tensions. Also because I think he's, you know, you have to think about, we talk about these people, they're dead, right? But they lived. And there's one thing that I really disagree. And please come at me for it because I will fight it to the end on this. It's something that really annoys me

when people say as a historian is still like you always kind of put modern ideas into the past first of all you can only read the past with the time you live in that's one thing the Victorian didn't have the same you know way of reading the past we don't have the same way of reading the past

but secondly I do kind of disagree in some ways a human being is a human being in 1500 and is a human being in 2026 your rivalry the importance of your personality and how you're going to act. We can't know for sure, right? We can't because we went there.

And I can't, you know, I can't interview Francisco and say, how much did you hate your sister? But from the evidence we have, it's very clear that there was something. And also, I think there was a clash of personality. From what we know, we have, Isabella, someone, you know, extrovert, giggly. From what we know, right, again, we went there. But from the sort of visible socially. Yeah, she's a patron.

She's a patron. She loves the arts. She's outspoken. For women as well, I think she might have been a bit annoying. And in fact that her father let her be who she was, right? And love that. And him, Francisco is reserved. And I feel like he's almost, so I don't think he really enjoyed that kind of outbursty personality of his sister.

But also you can imagine that he feels. felt I'm there. You seem to put all your energy and time on her. Why not me? You know, again, like here, I'm going into maybe a bit of psychology, but I really think that if you look at the sausage, you see this. You just, me, just my reading is maybe to amplify it a bit because I feel like I could almost see the dynamic and how they would have clashed. And for a long time, it was not a problem because as long as the father is there, it's kind of a buffer for everything, you know, between everyone. So you set the scene one. for Heiastel. We have Cosimo

the father really sort of keeping the peace for now. Yeah. He's elevated his daughter. He's given her an education. Yeah. Yeah. And then we have Francesco who whatever you're reading of the archive there is clearly some kind of tension and some jealousy. I think that's jealousy. I think it's very clear.

So we have this landscape set up. We're going to go to an ad break. And when we come back, we're going to talk about what happens when Cosimo is removed from the picture. Okay, Estelle, Cosimo dies in 1569, and Francesco, his son, succeeds him as the Grand Duke of Tuscany, right? Yes. At this point, Isabella has been betrothed to her husband. In 1558, yeah.

Yeah, so she is, as far as Francesco is concerned, taking care of. She's moved into the household of another man. What's going on? So that's a thing that's so interesting. And that's the thing that is so unusual is that when she married Pablo Orsini for the alliance between Rome and France, I want you to understand how important it is. In 1559 is the end of the Italian wars that lasted for easily 60 years, if not more, because it started with France and you know how French people are.

We couldn't possibly comment. You know how French people are. Yeah, you can say that. You know what I'm They can be very difficult But anyway So what's so different So what happened is that

This first I think we need to talk about their husband Because Pablo is very young When he marries Isabella But also I'm not going to say Cosimo regrets it I don't think there's enough evidence To say he regrets it

But let's look at the facts And we can make our opinion He's obviously Thinking there's something off And the thing that where he thinks it's something off is because he found out that Pablo had lots of debts and it's like, what a minute. If I send you my daughter, you're going to get a diary.

What are you going to do with that money? Are you going to take care of my daughter? You're going to just bloody spend it all, right? So that was one of the first concerns. With Pablo, so basically what was happening is that Isabella didn't go live with husband. She stayed with her father. That is very, very weird, very, very, very, very. usual. And Madi, you mentioned something about him being protective. I think that's where we have

this protective kind of side of him. So he wanted to keep her in his household. Yeah. Okay. Some people would say that was because he wanted to keep the money and to give it the way he wanted to Pablo. I would say there was probably something else. Pablo is a very interesting character. He's a military commander. So he goes on military missions. It's not because the big war is finished everything is at peace as we know it almost never ends in the 16th 17th century and so you have he goes away a long time and he visits his wife in the midiichi villa where casimir lives so he comes i think i found it weird how the dynamic she barely visits him in rome so it's like the dynamic is very off that's where i thought francesco the eldest

brother is like what is going on either she's marrying to the Orsini family and off you go or she's not married so I think I think it was to give Isabella some liberties to let her be the woman she wanted to be to and almost it shows that the alliance was political before being anything else can I just check what age are they now in what when they married or By this time when... Well, they're 20, 20, 23. Okay. So, they're early 20s by now.

So 10 years-ish after they... After, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then he's going to die, as you mentioned. So when, to answer your question, when he dies, then Francisco is there. And he's inherited this sister who won't leave. Off you go. Yeah. You go with your husband.

You get out of my hair. Spoken and set up very well, I think. Isabella's sort of social and cultural power. As you say, she has... she has this visibility and this standing. But ultimately she exists in a patriarchal society and she is under the patriarchal care of her father, quite literally,

the her pater. But then also her husband, but not really. And, you know, which domestic sort of male power system is she existing in there? We're not sure.

And then now she's sort of inherited by the brother, but not really this. Is this, I mean, how unusual is this? It's so unusual, but also it shows you one thing, though.

what we discussed, that when you're noble women, you're so at the mercy of your male relatives. You're just passed back and forth. So you aren't. Basically, a man has to control you. And you're lucky if that man has your best interest at heart, like for Isabella, the dad, Cosimo. And you're way unlucky if it's Francesco who just wants to stop this,

wants you to live your, you know. But in a way, like, not to defend him, but at the same time, what was he supposed to? He couldn't really. put like just let her do whatever she wanted in some so it was a bit of a of a difficult situation yeah yeah yeah like her sister you have a husband he's going to come to visit you in my house that sounds yeah and i suppose with francesco as well you know he he he is he's inherited the dukedom right like he needs to be seen to be in charge of its household and charge his family

he can't have any kind of ambiguity over no it's true it's true at the same moment i just i just i just It just feels to me how precarious your situation is as a noble woman. And again, she's not, I mean, it's not that she's unhappy. There's no evidence that she's unhappy with him, with Pablo, her husband. But there's no evidence of happiness either. You see, I mean, like, it's very clear that he's doing his stuff. She's doing her stuff. Well, you spoke as well about, you know, one of the main valuations that was placed on a woman

would be to bear children for her. husband. And Isabella very sadly does suffer several miscarriages before she does have a healthy child when she is 29 years old. Yes. So I suppose is there a tension there? Is it fair to say not only are this married couple not necessarily living under the same roof with any regularity, but also there's this struggle to produce an air within that. Does that come into play in terms of how Francesco sees the marriage from the outside, how Isabella's feeling about it? Absolutely. And I think we don't like, again, you know, as a story, we also have to look at the personal stuff because that's something that's going to impact your decisions.

But also, we know that miscarriages can impact massively your mental health. It can make, you know, it can really break your heart and for a long, long time, something that's something that you'll never probably recover from fully. And I think here not forgetting that about her and the dynamic with her husband is very, actually very important. because we also know that it's the woman is always blamed right it's always the fault of the woman what is she doing that she should not be doing what is she i think this is something that's maybe started to change in our conversation about women in the past actually and i can remember growing up watching you know tv shows are great often male historians and the phrase would be and she failed to produce an air and i know i think the language around women's fertility in the past and in the present um is is so important and i think i think estelle you're absolutely right to to to be to bring in that human element and also to to highlight what an impact that would have on these women and the men around them on a political level as well as a human level. You know, these were such important events and losses and successes.

You know, it was hugely important and it's often invisible in the archive. And often, but that's why it's, I think it's our role as historians like to try to also understand with what we have. it's okay to have an interpretation, right? It's okay as long as you can, first of all, you open if someone dismisses it because they found something else, then you're okay with it, right?

You should not get it. Yeah, absolutely. But also, like, that's what we should be doing anywhere to bring our own kind of analysis. But for me, it's very clear from an outside point of view that the marriage is clunky. That's something that's not really working. And for Isabella, I think we should not forget as well.

The death of her father is a huge loss. And she, honestly, she must have known that her brother would be like, well, now your life is going to change. And Pablo, it's almost this. I don't want to say he's a stranger, but it almost is. They don't, you know, like living with someone and seeing someone from time to know, it's not the same, right? So I feel like when they live together, he was still going away a lot.

He had lots of affairs. everyone knew about his affairs. And here is the double standard that is going to happen. We don't even know, do we? If it is double standard. We don't even know. I hope she did.

I hope she did. Let's not talk around it. We'll say what it is. I love that you describe the marriage as clunky. I think that's a lovely descriptor of this because it does feel like the parts are not kind of moving together. But within that, as you say, there's loads of infidelity going on with

with him, Pablo, which by the way, iconic that is called Pablo. And then we have insinuations. Yes. That she might also have been playing away. Well, yeah, me, I would, honestly, if you, if, I would be keen to believe in that relationship. So it's with a cousin of Pablo because he was more round. You have to, so we have to understand here.

She sent away to Rome to live with her husband. Her husband keeps doing what he's been doing for, you know, which I almost want to say fair enough, you know, for the last 10 years, 11 years, he's going away. As I said, he's a military commander. So he goes away. There's this man who's here maybe, I mean, okay, the evidence we have, let's just discuss it.

We have one evidence. It doesn't name, it's all we have. It's him, the cousin, who said that he had an affair with a married woman who came from Florence. That's in the archives. So, all right. I mean, it doesn't name her. But then, who else?

Yeah, it is something. It is something. I mean, I'm not 100%. I think the ones who do want to believe it is because they don't want to believe what happens next. And what happens next for me is very clear. Interesting.

Okay. So we will never know. know, from the archive alone. For sure, yeah. Whether this was a romantic relationship or not. No, I don't think we have letters at all. So that's the problem, right? We don't have letters.

And that is one of the, I think, fascinating things about being a historian. When you come across those gaps in the archive and you have to interpret them without filling them in and posing questions, I think that's what's so exciting. But we do know what happens next. And that is that. Oh, that's crazy. age 33 on the 16th of July 1576 Yeah

Isabella is found dead Is found dead after washing her hair I mean I'm sorry Yeah that doesn't happen I mean she's 33 She's not slipping and falling in the shower No And there's a report

Okay so okay we have a problem I mean that guys I don't need to tell you two are historians You understand what I'm saying this is something very private right you're in your part of your house like we can call the bathroom and you're found dead your husband came back and you're found dead you know he was away for a while he comes back you're dead he's in the house is in the house yeah okay let's stop let's stop fuffing about when people say and they said it's natural cause i'm like what there because because come on, who dies like this?

Like just after Washington? There is an argument that maybe she just died, right? Like, is that some people do interpret it? How is it even possible? I think we need to stop being crazy. Personally, the fact that we have an ambassador reporting that she was actually killed by her husband when he found out that she had an affair with his cousin,

we have an ambassador saying that, do you know who shut it down? All this. story. It is a scandal. Do you know who shut it down? It's going to be his family. Francesco. Oh, it's her family.

It's her family. It doesn't want any scandal. It doesn't want to know anything about it. And here, for me, everything falls into place. She didn't have an affair. It's a question of honor for Francisco's family. Pablo lost his mind because his cousin is also assassinated after that. It's not like he survived.

Oh, well, that's a coincidence. By who? someone in the family presumably right and so would they have died of natural causes both of them

that sounds great and do you want me to go like even crazier in the story I do well on the 11th July 1576

someone else is killed Leonora di Toledo Na Medici who is the wife of Pietro di Medici who is the brother

of Isabella so her sister Her sister-in-law is killed by her husband because she had an affair. What's the time difference? Five days. Ah, here. Wow. Two, well, two Medici women.

And do you know why the difference is like, so, what's so interesting is that, Francisco is saying that both of them died of natural causes. Well, of course he is. And he said that Pietro didn't do it. But Pietro is going to be forced to admit it because Eleonora di Toledo is from very powerful family in Spain. And she is going to say, so Spain is going to get involved and say, huh, excuse me here. What happened?

That was going to force Pietro and Francisco to admit that she was murdered. But they're going to say she had, and to be fair, on that one, she had an affair. Like we have, I mean, we have evidence. Like, I mean, it would be very hard to dispute it. Okay. So we have two women being killed by their husband. Yeah. And one completely covered up because her own brother.

Because he doesn't want the scandal. Because he's already embroiled in one closer to home. Yeah. What is so depressing. I mean, there's many depressing things about this story. But is that you mention Isabella's sister-in-law who is murdered and her family stand up for her. And, you know, not only because they care so much about the rights of women, but also because of the political alliance has been troubled in some way by the murder.

And their family has been dishonoured. They did stand up, but you know what happened next? That Pietro still then worked for the Spanish ambassador, ended up working in Spain. So I feel like the life of a woman, even a noble woman. There are no consequences. No, there's no really consequences. And for Pablo, there will be nothing at all.

And if it doesn't show you here that the lives of women, noble women or not mean absolutely nothing. I don't know what else does. Particularly, you know, you think back to Isabella's relationship to her father, Cosimo, and the value that he placed on her, whether as a political tool or as his beloved

daughter, or maybe both, I mean, can be both. But, you know, the fact that she goes from that to her own brother who's taken the place of her father in her family set up in terms of, you know, his social standing, all of that in terms of his power. and that her own brother just dismisses that and says she wasn't murdered.

I'm not going to look into it. That's so interesting that you say that because, you know, when you look at what happens and how it's covered up, right, natural causes, this is not a scandal, nothing happened here, look away. I really believe that if Cosimo had been alive. It would have been a different story. That would not have happened. Oh, I think Pablo would have been.

would have been killed by Cosimo's men. I do not see Cosimo being like, yeah, natural causes. Do we have any details about the death scene itself? Well, yeah. The crime scene. That's a thing that's interesting. Again, you know, what always interests me in the archives is that we obviously have to be, in a way, we have to be cautious because the source is a source, obviously,

even if it was written, you know, a few days after or something. But you also have to look at the motives, right, of the person writing it. And I'm not saying that ambassadors are the best ones because they have their personal agendas and they have political agendas. But sometimes they are the ones who are going to listen to Servant, they are going to want to know. They're just like very much big gossips. You know, they're very interesting to listen to. So what we know, right? Like from an ambassador that must have talked to servants, he wasn't there, right?

That's another thing, right? We need to be clear. Hey, if we were in the jury, I don't think that Pablo would be, I mean, it would be very hard. We wouldn't need to get the servants to step in and, you know, ask what they. So, but from what we know, she was found on the bathroom floor. The ambassador says that she had been strangled by her husband. So probably I think that for an ambassador to know that or there's no blood. Okay, that's the thing.

There's no blood. So she didn't sleep on the, you know, on something. There's no blood. I'm presumably if she's been struggled not to put too final point on it, but there would be marks on her body to maybe show that. And I think that's what happened. There were probably marks around her neck. And I think, okay, maybe it would, I mean, not to defend it,

but maybe it was a crime of passion. You know, I think it was really, oh my God, well, I was aware you were doing my cousin. How could you, you know, done. But what I think is interesting is that her sister-in-law was also, were actually smothered in bed but equally

these are deniable ways of killing someone if you smother someone like you say there's no blood there's no no mark on the body so therefore for that one we know like almost for sure

like he admitted it I think he admitted it I'm not saying he didn't do it but I'm saying like he maybe thought he could have got away with it and maybe that's what has happened here as well I think Pablo is absolutely

absolutely thinking that but what I think is it because again everything I'm telling you is from one source what would have been the advantage? What would the ambassador would have getting out? Like maybe you could say, honestly, let's think about it.

Maybe the ambassador was working for someone that didn't like the, you know, the midichi, didn't like, and wanted to really create a scandal, really want, or maybe didn't like the Orson is and, you know, in Pablo and wanted to really say, oh, your wife was this. So that's the things that we will never know. However, like, for me, the details that he came up with, means to me. What I'm saying, it indicates to me that that person must have talked to someone who was in the household because like the details of the bathroom, the details of the strangulation, why would you come up with it in your letter of reports? Do you see what I mean? I might have

crazy. It makes sense, right, to think about it. I have a question still. We talk about the fact that Pablo is rarely present in their marriage, that he's away such a lot that he's having. he's having his own affairs. Yeah, absolutely. Which is normal for a man. Yes, it's normal for a man. And it is very reasonable, I think, as you have suggested, that he would still, despite this disconnection between him and his wife,

still be angry that she had had an affair. It's totally different. Yeah, yeah. Because of this issue of honor and respect and all of that. So it's not that I don't buy that he killed her. My question is, is there a world in which Francesco is involved in her death? I think that's a very good question. Now I'm going to answer you completely

like as he's true I'm going to answer you there is no evidence now I would also say like what is the what would be the like to be there are some there are some people that are thinking that Francesco was involved

or would have ordered the murder of his sister bring me the evidence what evidence are you have what we have like in terms if we just do the timeline of facts all right we don't look at anything else what would Francisco first of all would wait that long

to kill his sister. I do not understand. When she's in the house as someone else because he could have murdered her before. And also it's a few years after, right? So why during that period

there's nothing happening? The second, when the husband Pablo comes back from one of his military campaign and he learns a potential alleged, you know, affair that means that matches.

The fact that his cousin dies sometime later, that matches. I still do not see Franchisca. What I would say for Francesco I do not see what he gains about having a sister killed. He doesn't get more money, doesn't get anything. If anything, he has to hide the scandal.

So why would you want to be involved in that? And he hides, he did it. He completely was like, natural clothes. Like, yeah, mate, you do whatever you want. We don't have, like, letters where he's sad, but we don't have letters where he said, yes, she's dead. So I do not see his involvement. What I see is someone who knew maybe that what she was doing,

disapproved it, thought, well, their husband is going to deal with it. The husband has dealt with it. Let's make sure it is not a scandal for the Medici and Ossini's. We already have another scandal with my... And basically, they must... You know what they must have thought? These women, they can't keep it for themselves. They're hard to get...

I really think when you look at, you know, how these women were seen, they're really worth seeing like, oh my God, you have no respect for yourself. You have to have a lover. it's horrible. It's, you know, and I do not see Francisco in terms of evidence. No, I do not even see the motives, to be fair. Maybe, you know, maybe there is.

If you find it in the archives, please, you know, put the research out there. But I do not see it. We're going to zoom out when we come back after this break and just talk about how this has impacted or what it tells us about honor systems and power in these states more generally. when we come back after this break.

Right, so what can we garner from this history of style? What do you think this is telling us? I mean, you've been really upfront, I think, from the beginning to say, don't think that noble women were having a lovely time in lovely dresses. That's one of the really key takeaways here, and then it's so true. What else can we infer from this particular history? For me, what it shows is how precarious your life is, how very little control you have.

And it actually shows something much bigger is that personally, I think that then you understand why women, when they can get power and get their heads on power, why they do so, and how cleanly they get with power. Well, that's, you know, when you just look at these two women, you know, and Isabella especially, it's a big example of not just conjugal violence, not of like an affair or not an affair. it's part of the patriarchal system where you not only upon, but you depend entirely on your male relatives. Now, I want to tell you something, because I think it's very important. When you look at other women of power at the same time, you have Elizabeth I, who's Queen of England, and she no longer has male relatives, so she and she's in full control,

and then you understand why she doesn't want her husband. I'm sorry to say, I'm not saying that that, Obviously, it's not what happened that would have made her change her mind or made her believe that she didn't want an husband. But all of this is very part of the same ecosystem. Same with Catherine Medici, when her husband died, she doesn't want to marry. Maybe because she was in love with him. I believe she was in love with her husband, which is very rare. But you understand things.

Another case is also for me that work on a lot is Mary Queen of Scott. And what's so interesting for me is the Gies family, so a French family, the geezes are very different for the 16th century from any other noble family I've worked on. Why? Because in their family, they are truly equals, men or women. It's just that you play different roles. Women are sent to get alliances and they are. You don't want to. Not my problem. You have to do your role. But you are under our protection. You are on your, we're still part of the same family. There's kind of like you would have never had a geez. If, you know, if Don, they had killed. married, Mary Stewart.

I really believe that this would have find a way to send an assassin. He would have been dead. Like, you know, because there's, they would not have been like, oh, natural cause. You know, like whatever she was doing or not doing, that would not have been even entering their, you know, their mind. And so here we have a, I just feel like it shows you how difficult it was for women to be in power, for women to be intelligent, for women, to have a life. And so it really shows you like the patriarchal society how it worked and that you could be a winner for a long time if you had the right male relative behind you or, you know, next to you or whatever, by your side or how everything could flip. Because you know sometimes I think, because people can say, but why did she have an affair? If she did have an affair.

Why would she make that decision? Well, first of all, good for her. I was going to say, Maddie, you and I were connected. Good for her, right? But also, I really believe that, is that really the question? Like, why did she? Yes, why was she killed, more importantly? Yeah.

Estelle, before we wrap up, let's claw back some of Isabella's life then, because we've spoken about her death. We've spoken about how her life was controlled in all these different ways by men. Her choices, her body, so much of that was taken out of her control. let's leave with a slightly different vision of her then tell us something about who she was at the sort of the height of her powers how you would like her to be remembered and why she was important in history outside of these circumstances and outside of these men yeah absolutely

well what I like from the sources we have about her I think she's someone who has lots of fun to be around she's clearly someone who cared about people around her Like she's done lots of works with convents, which is the same as most of the women, the Medici women, were highly, you know, involved in that pattern of the arts. So obviously she kind of pursued what the Medici had done before with Michaela, with, you know, even Leonardo da Vinci. And so here a love for, I think, you know, we tend to lose that. I'm very scared, actually. I'm just thinking about it because when you think about Isabella, I think someone who really appreciated a good piece of art.

And I think I'm a bit scared sometimes, we might be at risk of losing that with the museums. We have the heritage places we have because they're so important. They're not just connections with the past. The connections with humanity and how we appreciate and how it makes us dream or makes us want something more for ourselves. I think a good painting can completely inspire you to do things for yourself. And I think Isabella was someone like that.

And I do love a good story about a father and daughter. we have others in history. Like I'm thinking about Chaucer's, you know, with Alice Chaucer. We've got like Donington Castle by her father and everything. I'm researching one of those relationships right now. And it's really nice to work on. It's really interesting. I mean, maybe because like I love my dad to bits and, you know,

the time I'm a weekend collage and so. But I do love him to bits. And I know my dad would have been such a protector, you know, at that time if he still is. But, you know, what I mean? I don't really need protection. Can confirm. But I love that story as well What it shows us about the daughter she was

And I love the fact that all the reports She was joyful She loved life And I think if someone loved the arts They obviously love life Because it's such a connection with the humanities And not only she loved that She was paying for arts to be created

She was so passionate about this And I think I wish we would remember that about her I think if she had lived longer She would have became a huge pattern of the arts She was in correspondence with Catherine the military So who knows? Let's not forget that, obviously during that time, I mean, 1576, we have lots of religious civil wars in France. So, you know, like, it's not the best time.

It's a dangerous time. But people who could find beauty in such dangerous times, I think they need to be remembered for that. I want to read the archive that is Catherine de Medici and Isabella's letters. That's something I'm going to go away and do, I think. Estelle, thank you so much for coming on. This was so fascinating and a really interesting, difficult, challenging and actually quite enlightening history. Beyond the sort of the headlines, I don't know that much about them, Adichie. So this was really, really interesting.

If people want to find more of your work, where can they do so? Well, mostly on Instagram nowadays because I think it's one of my favorite platforms. 26, we all have to be there. We all have to be there. I come do TikTok, so you won't find me on there. I tried. I left. You left?

Yeah. Anthony, make me feel better about myself. I opened it, looked on it, realized I was not 20 years old, and decided that wasn't for me. Fantastic. Estelle, thank you so much. If you want to hear more stories

about the Medici or Italy in any century, then you can get in touch with us at afterdarkthehistoryhit.com. Don't forget to leave us a five-star review wherever you get your podcast.