After Dark: Myths, Misdeeds & the Paranormal - Mysterious History of Tarot Cards

Episode Date: March 2, 2026

Maddy and Anthony get their Tarot cards read by Melissa Mercury! As well as reading their cards, Melissa tells us about the history of Tarot cards and who is responsible for their iconic design.Find out why Swords aren't always bad and why the Death card can be good news!This episode was edited by Tim Arstall. Produced by Tomos Delargy and Vilde Oksnes. The senior producer was Freddy Chick.You can now watch After Dark on Youtube! www.youtube.com/@afterdarkhistoryhitSign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries, with a new release every week and ad-free podcasts. Sign up at https://www.historyhit.com/subscribe.  You can take part in our listener survey here.All music from Epidemic Sounds.After Dark: Myths, Misdeeds & the Paranormal is a History Hit podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

The beaded curtain whispers as you step inside. The air thick with incense and something faintly sweet like old flowers. Candlelight pools across velvet-draped tables casting shadows that sway like watchful silhouettes. At the room's centre rests a single deck of cards. Its gilded edges glowing as if warmed by unseen hands. You are not alone. The reader sits opposite the table, utterly still, their eyes holding more knowledge than they should rightly possess. With a graceful tilt of the hand, they invite you to sit.

You obey, heart quickening. Your questions hover unspoken. The reader begins, and your future unfolds. A flaming tower struck by lightning. with people falling to the earth. A figure stood perilously close to a cliff's edge, a skeletal figure clad in knights' armor. These are just a few of the depictions found in the famous deck of cards

used by fortune tellers and mystics in their practice of divination, seeing into the future. The origins of tarot cards are clouded in mystery and rumor, and today we'll be endeavoring to shed some light on the subject. Where do these cards come from? Who were the key figures behind them? And what do they hold in store for us? And to help us tell this history of taro

and to give us a reading, of course, we have Melissa Mercury, who's a professional tarot reader. Where are you based, Melissa? Is it in Camden or just North London generally? It's in North London. North London. And you can Google and find out, right?

You can find all your details online. Yes, you can. So it's all there. And Melissa gives tarot card readings. She runs tarot workshops. Ooh, that's interesting. And Pivotal for us gives lectures on the history of taro. Melissa, welcome to After Dark.

Thank you so much for having me. We are so over-excited about this episode. We've been talking about doing this for ages. And what episode was it? Was it the Nostradamus episode when we first said out loud, we need a tarot reader to come in? And we had a big response from listening. Yeah, I know you guys are going to really enjoy this episode as well.

And I've been, so we've been saying, sitting here getting camera set up and getting microphone set up and I've been like, Melissa, what about? And they're like, no, save it for the podcast. And she's had a thousand questions. And I'm like, I can't remember anything. It was like, what day is it, Melissa? No. The first thing I want to ask, because I think this is interesting before we get into some of the history of it. What are the expectations of your clients, do you think, when they come to you for a reading, say for the first time, what are they expecting? And is that something that you feel that the cards do? Are,

expectations and reality different sometimes in what happens? I think everyone's got a different expectation of tarot depending on their own personal background, where they know tarot from primarily as well. So a lot of my clients come in and it's basically like a therapy session. I always say that I feel more like a therapist than a fortune teller. And I think it's just a great space to be able to look at life from a different perspective. So whoever's coming to see me, whether it's their first time or their hundredth time, we always set the expectations at the beginning. But there are a lot of people. We can't deny there's been a big rise of tarot on TikTok and social media where people do come and they just want to know that their ex is coming back, which is absolutely something that I do not dab on.

Please tell me my ex is not coming back. No, no, no, no. It's really a turn up for the books right now. So we have to reframe it. And then we get the obvious jokes where people come in, they're like, oh, Melissa, what are the lottery numbers? Right. But I did actually once know a tarot reader. She was very smart.

She told every single client of hers they were going to win the lottery. And when they did, remember her kindly. So she said that the odds would be that one day she's read for so many people. Somebody will. Yeah. Oh my God, that's so interesting. You said about this positioning as a therapist, but also this positioning as a fortune teller. Just talk to me a little bit about that naming.

Like how much do you actually identify with a fortune teller? Is that something you're comfortable being called? Do you think that's what you're doing? Because that is so tantalizing. So it's an interesting one. And I've been doing Tara for a long time and I do have clients that come back to me. and we have conversations about things where I talk about the future and I say, you know, this looks like it's on the cards for you and let's talk about how you can achieve this and

they'll come back and they've done the thing or sometimes they've come back and they've not done the thing, but the thing was there and they ignored it. So it's interesting. I think personally that we all have our own free will and the cards can just show you what could be and guide and help give that, you know, that confidence boost. So it's a little bit of fortune telling. I don't really see myself as like the fortune teller stereotype. So if you came to me, I wouldn't be a able to tell you, you know, when you're going to get married, if you're going to have children, wait, that kind of thing. But I do know readers who actually absolutely do that. So again, every tarot reader is different. And it's interesting as well, like looking at the ethics of it.

So I personally wouldn't be comfortable with telling somebody, you know, if they're having children, that kind of thing, because I'm not a medical professional. I think personally, I see myself more as a therapist, not uncomfortable with the term fortune teller. And I lean into that when I do a lot of events. So quite often I do like weddings and corporate events and parties and we have it just as a little bit of a fun thing for guests to do. But I realized the power of the cards. So I did a party a couple of weeks ago and the first card, a client turned over for the first time was death, which we can talk about later on. It doesn't mean you're going to die. But he was very freaked out by this and panicky. And so, you know, there is real power in it. If someone comes, you know,

if they believe it, or even if they're skeptical, I've had people come and be very spooked by tarot who beforehand just were not believing in it at all. So it really can be quite powerful. So I think you do have to treat it carefully. I love this idea of it as therapy and sort of you can get out of it what you put in. Like if you bring something to it and you can then open up and have a conversation. I think that's really interesting. Melissa, let's talk a little bit about the history then, because we are going to do some readings today, which again, I'm trying to contain my excitement. I'm genuinely so looking forward to this. But let's start at the beginning of, I suppose, the most basic question. What is tarot for those who don't know? So taro is a deck of primarily 78 cards.

It's got four suits much like a deck of playing cards. You've got your cups, your pentacles, your wands and your swords. So four different suits representing different areas of life. They all run from ace to 10. So it's kind of like your life's journey. Cups is your emotional journey. Wands is your kind of like your energy, your creativity, your passion, the journey of that. The pentacles can either be your kind of home life journey or your career. And then you've got the swords, which is, again, ace through 10, all about your mental health, how you communicate, and your intellectual pursuits. And then you've got much like a regular playing card deck, the court cards.

So in taro, you've got an extra one. You've got pages, knights, queens and kings. And then what makes them different from a regular playing card deck is you have what we call the major arcana. So what we've just described is the minor arcana. And then the other 22 cards and the 78 card deck are the middle. major arcana. Now, these really symbolise sort of the big archetypes that you might meet in life. They are running from card zero, which is the full, all the way through to the final card 21,

which is the world. And it just really looks at what happens over your life and the people that you might meet. So we've got very familiar archetypes like the emperor and the empress. And then we've got things like, you know, the death, tower, the lovers, all of the big moments that really just symbolise like the ebb and flow of life, the big changes that you might encounter. I love the complexity of this immediately. And obviously it's a setup that's very familiar to you, Melissa, and you work with it all the time. But it's so different from just a playing card deck.

And there's so much kind of meaning. And I suppose so many historical layers built into that as well. And we're going to talk a little bit about the different types of decks and where they've developed and all of that. When can we pinpoint when tarot first begins? Is that possible? Does it have a starting point? So I believe that the first Harry deck was created in 1425 by...

That's very specific. It is very specific. So it is, again, there's like lots of different evidence from lots of different places. The kind of clearest evidence is that it was created by the Duke of Milan in 1425. The French stake their claim to like a little bit earlier, but there's no hard evidence of that. But the idea was that he wanted something to commemorate a family celebration. So he commissioned a fabulous scholar and artist to create a deck that ended up being 22 Christian virtues and temptations. So it's interesting as well to look back at the first tarot decks and go, okay, there are some religious aspects here because especially as things have evolved over time, there has been almost a little bit of fear from certain religious groups of taro.

But looking all the way back, it feels like that is the first deck that was created. And he kind of started a trend for the aristocracy in Italy. after he created his deck, and then there was another deck that came out, the Visconti Faza deck to commemorate the union of two families, all of the nobles seemed to jump on board. And it was the in thing, if you were wealthy, to get a card deck commissioned for a relative for celebration. And they were very kind of ornate, they were very pompous in a way, actually. The cards were intricate. You had, you know, gold leaf, Lappas Lazzuli, really kind of fine artwork on them, and no expense was spared. But at the time, it was actually a game.

Yes, I was going to ask this. Was this to do with divination and fortune telling in the broadest terms? Or was this just entertainment? Was there an overlap? At the start, it was entertainment. So it was almost like a game of trumps or there was a version that I've heard of that seems like an early version of cards against humanity where you'd literally deal cards to your opponent. And if you liked the person opposite you, you might use the cards to write a nice poem about them.

If you didn't like the cards dealt with you or the person opposite you, you could completely roast them. That's interesting that they're already. being used almost as prompts. You say to write a poem and things like that, they're already a starting point for a conversation or a different kind of artwork as well. Around an individual. Yeah, so interesting. It is. And it's a strange thing to talk about, because we're talking about how excited we are to have this done. And what strikes me is that there would have been excitement around these first playing entertainment things as well. And it's just interesting that inheritance, that kind of the sentimental inheritance that we have across

centuries of going, this is something exciting. Now, I know it doesn't necessarily apply to everybody because you just said about some, you know, reticence in certain religious quarters over different periods of time. But that kind of inherited excitement still is with us. And, you know, it's, it's interesting that it has that legacy. When do we see it come to British Irish shores and how has it changed by the time it gets here? So the first acts were in Italy in the 1400s. It took quite a while for the UK to actually pick up on it. And the first instance we can see of that is 1909, which was the Wait Smith deck. So again, you've got like 500 years between the two almost.

That's really surprising. I thought you were going to say the 18th century. Just instinctively, I was like, this is very 18th century, this is what the... So it's not until the 20th century. Wow, that's so interesting. That it's that late. Yeah. Let's talk about some of the proponents of Tara, I suppose,

and some of the more interesting and odd characters that crop up through this history, though, because we have certain figures, don't we, who are important in its story. I'm thinking of Antoine Cor de Gabela. Is that correct? I'm sure. I think so. Yeah, yeah, yeah. In 1781, is a French priest, I believe, who is involved in the story of Tarot.

So who is he and how does that play up? So he had lots of opinions on lots of different things. And he had ideas that Tarot came from Egypt. but there hasn't been any sort of concrete evidence for this. There are a few people that kind of got on board with the Egypt background. But again, there's not been anything coming out of it that is solid evidence from it.

And that sort of makes sense, right, that if it's been sort of born in Europe, but it's sort of othered and a bit sort of quote-unquote exotic, that it's classic that, you know, that ancient Egypt would be a place that inheritance would be drawn from or, you know, sort of fictionalized, I guess. And it is interesting that there is this idea that it's almost like this magical inheritance as well,

that it's coming from the power of the ancient Egyptians and that somehow infused through. But what exactly was Antoine doing that has situated him in the history of taro? Or is it just him making that link between Egypt that's solidified his name in the history of the cards? So there were a couple of other people also interested in this. And I think that it comes from the fact that playing cards themselves, obviously go all the way back to like the 800s in China. But the tarot deck itself is more closely based on the Mamluk cards, which probably did come out of like, you know, the Egyptian regions.

And so that's probably like the closest link to it. And at that point, you know, you had things like polo sticks and cimitars instead of like wands and swords. But there's just, I think there's always been like a great fascination, you know, for ancient Egypt, like the gods, the deities, their way of life. They were obviously also completely fascinated with the idea of death and life. and so it's not a bad place to look. Yeah, yeah.

Talk to me then about the first, again, if we can know, professional tarot reader. Is there someone that stands out in the timeline that going, ah, it's that person starts to see that there's an industry here? Yes. So if we look at the timeline of it, you have tarot very prominent in the Italy in the 1400s, 1500s.

It then shifts across to France. And that's where the fortune-telling aspect really starts to pick up popular. popularity. And in the 1700s, there was a really fabulous man called Jean-Baptiste Alite, and he went by the name Etienne. He spelled his name backwards. So again, we're adding layers of mystery to it. So he took his last name. He spelled it backwards. He was known as E.ete. And he essentially wrote a book, which was how to entertain yourself with the deck of cards. And that ended up being a book about using Tarot for fortune telling. So he was the

first one that we've got on record. And again, this wasn't until like the late 1700s. where he saw the potential of the cars and started really just kind of like, you know, seeing their meaning, seeing their depth, and then using them to read fortunes for other people. And he got like quite famous. He was quite sought after. So he was probably the most popular tarot reader at the time. And then after that, there started being more prominent figures who were also like celebrity readers back in the day. What's striking me, Melissa, is that in the history that you've mentioned so far, there's a lot of men actually in this history.

And I don't know if it's just a preconception that I'm bringing to this, but I always associate Tara with sort of more female experience, particularly today it's kind of popular on social media, not exclusively with women, but I think there is a sort of skew towards that maybe. Were you surprised looking at the history of this that it's so connected with men and women too, of course. I don't want to write them out of the history,

but was that a surprise for you? I don't think so, to be honest. I think, again, it's like it's of the time and they probably had the tools to be able to, to create it. There might have been things that women were doing similar behind the scenes that we just don't know about. But the person that, like, I really credit for changing tarot, like, two of them really, were Marianne La Normand, who was the next famous tarot reader. And then Pamela Coleman Smith, who illustrated arguably the most famous deck in the world, the Wait Smith tarot deck from

Britain in the 1900s. But it is interesting because I think nowadays, when we think of a tarot reader, that is kind of an archetype of normally sort of like an older white lady who's got like kind of a sense of mystery around her sitting in the corner of some shack somewhere or like a circus tent doing tarot. So it feels like in the media anyway, it's largely women doing the actual tarot readings. And I like what you're saying about, you know, maybe women were doing this for centuries anyway, but just not in a way that was recorded and in space, domestic spaces or, you know, off at the court in a way that wasn't documented in the same way. Tell me a little bit more about, you mentioned Marieanne there, who is, you know, is she another 18th or 19th century person who, you know, changes,

is the history. So she was around just after a TA in sort of like the late 1700s. And she had a like a boudoir in Paris. So all of this was kind of coming out of Paris in like the late 1700s, early 1800s. And she had a whole host of clients from all around the world. So like Zah Alexander I was one of her clients. Napoleon's Josephine was one of her clients. Her most famous prediction was that Napoleon would actually lose the war. But she had people coming from like, you know, from Britain, from Russia, from all over for her tarot service. is. And the way she set herself up, I think, quite a lot of, again, tarot that we see in the media and the way that tarot is done today comes from her influence because she had what

was described. I've actually got a quote from one of her clients. Please read it. She had lots of people, but there was an extract in Lady Shelley's Diary. She was a friend of the Duke of Wellington and she met her and when she walked into the room, Shelley was firstly very surprised because Le Norman asked her for her date of birth, the first letter of her name, the first letter of her birthplace, her favourite animal, a colour and a number. So all of this stuff that I personally don't think would have really helped in a tarry reading, but it's creating a sense of mystery. It's creating, like, you know, the pageantry of it. It's making it into a bit more of an experience. And Shelley actually wrote in her diary, you know, after about a quarter of an hour of this mummery,

during which time she had arranged all the cards in an order upon the table and made an examination of my head, suddenly she began in a sort of measured prose with great rapidity and distilled. distinct articulation to describe my character and past life in which she was so articulate and successful, even to the minute particulars, that I was spellbound at the manner in which she had discovered all she knew, and it was like she had done a full-on examination of my head. Wow. It's this idea of seeing the inner self. Yes.

Of being able to strip away the societal layers that one puts on. If someone holding a mirror up to you. Yes. Yeah, yeah. And actually getting a, getting a, it's quite dangerous in a way. in one sense, or I don't know if danger is the right word, but in that they almost know more about you than you know about yourself, that they're able to show you this and have access to this.

So it's, and for an 18th century person or early 19th century person, that's potentially, depending on how much you're investing in this, in terms of your belief system, that's potentially earth-shattering, I would be said. I'm really interested as well in that account that you just read, Melissa. The way that Shelley comes into this is skeptical, and she refers to it as mummery, this idea of it being sort of farcical and it's a performance and all of that. And she leaves not a sceptic and she's amazed by what's happened.

How much pushback was there in the 18th century to fortune telling like this? It wasn't something that was welcomed by everyone, right? And there were bands and sort of scandals that surrounded it sometimes weren't there? think it had a really mixed reception. So, you know, in some circles, like the aristocracy, it was the done thing to do. So all of her friends probably would have gone to Gats Harrow readings and the word would have spread. But there definitely was a hesitation to it. Like Marianne-Lormone's own family really didn't like what she was doing. And all of her stuff was actually burnt. So when she passed away in 1843, her last remaining family member burnt all of her belongings. And so there's

really not much trace of her. So disappointed. We know that she did read with like the ITA deck. So they were very closely linked. But I think as well, what's interesting, if we go back over time, there were obviously card bans, but there was one point in Italy where lots of forms of, like, gambling and games were banned, except Tarrow. So at the time, because Tarrow was associated with the upper classes, the more wealthy, again, the aristocracy, the royals,

it had like a precedence. It was, you know, more kind of, I don't know, more like maybe intellectual than some of, like, the other card games or the forms of gambling. So when everything else was banned, at some point this was still allowed. Okay, that's so interesting, isn't it? Because it has that aristocratic connection or popularity that it's allowed to exist. We know we are heading towards a reading here.

And you've given us an overview there in the beginning about what some of the cards mean. But I just, I'm going to go through some of the cards and we can talk about them individually. When I say, you can tell us about them individually. So you talked about the major archauner. initially and that there's 22 cards. Is that correct? Yes. Okay. I don't know what a major arcana is. What does that mean? Where has that come from? And what is that telling us? So those are basically like the bigger archetypes, the bigger life moment.

So this would have been what makes a tarot deck a tarot deck versus a playing card deck, the ones that the Duke of Milan added back in the 1400s. But essentially in tarot is anything with a dirt in front of it. So if you're new to tarot, you're trying to learn the cards. That's a really good. Anything with a that in front of it is a major arcana card. And They're the ones that are most commonly used in TV and film and also for writers and creatives they can be used to help advance the plot along in their own works. Interesting. Okay.

So you've got the major archana doing that. And then you mentioned as well the minor arcana. So these are 56 cards. And these are the ones that are divided into the four suits, right? So we've got wands, cups, swords and pentacles. And I'm really interested in the fact that these all represent kind of different aspects of your personality. Is that fair to say?

Different aspects of your life? Absolutely. Yes. And another way of looking at it would be linking them to the four elements as well. So you've basically got like earth, air, water, fire in there. And then that links into astrology because you can see again, like it's, it gets very complicated and deep, but there are astrological links to the cards as well, whereby if you look at the cards, each of the major arcana and some of the minor arcana each have a

different star sign associated with them. If you go really, really deep, each one's got a different placement. So I'm not, I'm not an astrologer by any means, but some people will look at this card and be like, oh, you know, like this is Gemini and Mercury or this is, you know, this is something in your fourth or fifth house. You can get really deep and layered into it, but I prefer just to keep it a bit more simple. But another way of looking at it as well is I see tarot just as the human experience. So whatever you're interested in, whatever you like, you can almost apply to tarot and you can almost learn through that way as well. So one of the things that I picked up on when I was first learning tarry years and years ago and was also at the time working in a sales job where

we were forced to do like the 16 personalities Maya Briggs test when we started the company to be assigned our groups and everything. There are 16 personalities. There are 16 court cards in the tarot deck. You can assign each of the court cards to one of the, you know, the Myers-Briggs 16 archetypes of people. And there have been like, you know, books and debates had about which one suit, which best. So whatever lens you're looking at tarot through, you can always find more based on what you're interested in in everyday life. And it's interesting that we are doing that kind of putting people into, not boxes, because it's not limiting. I think it's more expansive than that.

But we're trying to categorize things and make sense of things elsewhere in like the corporate world even. And yet the cards have been doing this for centuries. I find that really interesting that it's sort of human compulsion to do this. And this is what I think is really funny. We've spoken about this before. It gives you a key to contemplation and to self-contemplation and to go actually. wherever you think this information is coming from, perhaps it's even coming from within yourself. And it's going, actually, what do I think about that?

Where am I in my career? What is this? So I can see why you're talking about this kind of therapy idea because it gives time for reflection and then making choices based on, but as you say, within your own free will. Now, let's talk about some of the individual cards. So again, these will probably come up in reading. So we'll have a little bit more knowledge once it happens. start with the fool card, Melissa.

If the fool card comes up, what does that help us to know about oneself? So the fool is card zero in taro. It's the very, very, very beginning. And it's just a very kind of like, again, you can see it through two different lenses. I think it's a really exciting card because doors are opening, you know, the world as your oyster. It typically shows a person with a dog in like a little backpack about to jump off a cliff. And you might look at them and think, oh my gosh, they're so foolish. But their arms are thrown open. They've got quite whimsical clothing on in pretty much most tarot decks. And it's just like freedom. They're free to make any choices, mistakes as well. But they don't have any restrictions or anything holding them back. Again, like it's the start of a journey. Sometimes it might mean there's a whole lot more to learn. But it's being open to the experience of things. So that's the fool. Tell me about the magician. This is card one, right? It is. Yes. So the magician is a fantastic archetype. Because if you look at the magician,

the magician card, you'll notice that in front of them, they have all of the suits that we've mentioned. So the magician actually has access to the wand, the pentacle, the cup and the sword. And it's like, they are limitless in their approach to what they can use. They've got that infinite thing across the head, right? The infinity symbol of our present across the head and the card. And it's a very, it's a very empowering card. So with the magician, it's really showing that the person who's having the reading has all the tools that they need already inside the. them at their disposal. And it's just figuring out how they pull it together. So again, that

infinity symbol, they're an infinite number of different combinations of the way a person could use their skills. And it's just having that confidence to go out and do it. With the magician, I quite often say, it's quite cheesy, but the only people that don't have imposter syndrome, actual impostors in life. So with the magician, it's kind of almost like, you know, fake it to make it energy, have the confidence to go out and get things started. It's card one. We're just at the beginning again. We're initiating something here. We're creating. Wow. Now, This will be one that people are very aware of for right or wrong reasons, and that, of course, is the death card.

Dun dun dun dun. Indeed. So, as a lot of people probably will be aware, death doesn't actually mean death when it comes to tarot. There are some decks actually where death is relabeled rebirth, especially in modern decks because people can be, again, like, quite scared of the image. And what I really like about this card is I see it is almost like, again, the rebirth or the butterfly moment.

It is uncomfortable, but it's necessary. And so when death comes up in a tarot reading, it's really pushing you to go and do something sort of bigger and greater and different to what you've already accomplished. So it's kind of almost like you're coming out of again, a cocoon. It's a butterfly moment. But if we look at the card, some of the clues are there. So the sun is setting, but it's going to rise again the next day.

And also we know by the numerology of it, this is card 13. There are 22 cards in the major Arcana. So we're nowhere near the end. We're just about at the halfway point. So again, it can look quite scary because obviously in most decks it's a skeleton on a white horse. Like it's quite a striking visual. But it's just a real reminder, you know, that something has to end. And quite often this comes up if someone's going through a breakup and they're processing, you know, the big changes that come with it.

And it's very emotional. Or if someone's leaving a job and starting their own business, this could be a sign, yes, go for it. we're kind of cheering you on. Okay. Talk to me next about the tower. Okay, so this is the real big bad. So death is nothing compared to this one. Wait, this is the real big bad. This is the real big bad.

Don't want this one. Well, I think the more you say that, the more it is going to come up for you. I actually do have a client who comes to see me once a year and they get disappointed if they don't have the tower because they like the chaos. I think, again, it depends on your personality. So if you're drawn to a little bit of chaos, it can sometimes be a relief to see it, I guess, in a way.

But the tower is quite often, it's out of your hand. So the transformation is happening. It's going to be something that feels very disastrous. Basically in the card, you've got lightning coming down, striking a building. There's fire. There are people jumping or being pushed out of a tower. And it's structural collapse. So this would probably be like, you know, you get fired from a job.

This could be, I don't really talk about, like, tarot for predicting death. But if we were going to, it would be this one. And it looks pretty violent. It does. It's quite alarming. It could be somebody like cheating on their partner. It could be, you know, having like a car accident. It could be a company collapsing.

Structural collapse. Yeah. Sort of your life is, yeah, I'm going to give that back to you. But it's softened in a way. So like both with death and the tower, the cards that come after them, respectively, temperance and then the star, they're cards of healing. So tarot kind of like life goes, here is something really, really awful and here is like something to calm it down. And we don't not get that, right?

Like that is the story of a life. Yeah, yeah. When we look back over anyone's life, it's downfall, it's building back up, it's healing, it's difficult. That's what life looks like. On a stereotypically, and you're going to tell me a little bit more about this, I guess, but the lovers, is that what I think it is? You're like, what do you think it is? Well, like, for me, I'd just be very obvious with it. than say, like, is it like about love, about, you know, if you're single, maybe it's

about if you're already in a relationship, it's about that either working or not working. Am I wrong? So it can be about love. But I think it very much depends on the context of the situation. So, for example, if a client comes to you and the whole reading is all about, you know, like their career, if the lovers comes up in that reading, it's not going to be suddenly we're going from talking about next steps into your career to you're going to meet the love of your life.

They might just be in that boardroom over there. Yeah. But instead, for me, the lovers, again, when we're coming back to, the idea of tarot and astrology is more aspects of the star sign Gemini. And it's thinking about the duality in life. And the lovers is really all about, you know, how you make decisions if you show up and you're prioritising your own needs or if you're, you know, making sacrifices for somebody else in life. So it's asking you to look at your decisions and see if you're picking what's right for you or if there's maybe a little bit of people pleasing going on. And really just

thinking carefully, if we go back to the origins of like the lovers card in the, the weight Smith deck from 1909, which is the one most people know, if we look at it, it's actually Adam and Eve. Interesting. Rather than it being like a very, again, like it's a biblical story. Everyone's got their own version of what they think it means. But it's more about the choices like temptation. Are we going to take the apple or are we not?

Rather than like the relationship between the two. So that's how I see it. Of course there are readings where people will come in and they're asking about love and the lovers comes up and they get so excited. And as a reader, you kind of can't be like, oh no, it doesn't actually mean that. and not going to be happy. You're not going to find your person. You're like, I see a lot of misery here.

So it can mean love. It really can do. But a lot of the time, again, context is everything. It can often represent like difficult choices ahead. Interesting. So let's talk about the final one in this list anyway that we're going to talk about. And this is the hanged man. This, again, seems pretty ominous to me.

I'm guessing that there are going to be more complex and nuanced interpretations of this. Yeah, so I'm going to actually find the card. I want to show you the card and see what you first notice about it. Because again, the tendency is to panic when we see this card. But I actually think it is quite a beautiful card. And I'll talk about why. I love talking to an actual anxious person about the tendency is to panic.

So suddenly I start panicking. I'm like, oh, my God. Yeah, deep breaths. I'm trying to find it. He doesn't want to come out. He doesn't want to see you. Oh, that's fine. Yeah.

that's okay but like the hanged man is a card that normally like in the tarot cycle anyway when you talk about it you kind of have to talk about death because it is the card

that's before it so it's like the calm before the storm almost and it's really a time to take stock of what has been going on in life for you and like when we look at the card there's like a halo of light

around the person's head they're suspended upside down from a tree they have this beautiful halo of light of gold around their head and it's being forced to see life from a different perspective

So there's no doubt hardship about it. But actually, like, we relate the kind of the circle of light above the head to the crown chakra opening. So it's awareness. It's self-awareness. It's going upwards and, like, getting into something that is going to be better than where you are now. But again, like, death is the feeling of, first of all, we have to, like, shed the skin or, like, release something in order to be able to build onwards and upwards. And quite often, again, like, we look at the hanged man. They obviously didn't get themselves into that situation.

So quite often, like, with the tower energy, it's something that's been forced upon. you but what comes next will be a better chapter essentially but it can it can look quite intense. One thing I want to ask is about this deck. This is the 1900s deck that we're looking at now, isn't it? This is the 1909 deck and this is I've got over 100 tarot decks and this is my favourite one of all time. I mean it's so beautiful and it's so of the artwork is so of the moment that it's produced and it has kind of echoes of the Preraphalites in there but also some art new vaux elements. Like it's so gorgeous. How similar is that to the decks that have come before? Was this a huge innovation in terms of the depiction of some of these figures? So this deck was created in 1909 by

Arthur Edward Way and Pamela Coleman Smith. So it was a collaboration and one in a long line actually where we see the man dictate what he wants on the cards and then the women having the creative freedom to come and put their own kind of spin on it. But Pamela Coleman Smith actually was incredible. She illustrated lots of different children's books that she wrote. She had a women's magazine that was championing women to be writing and creating. She actually was a set designer. She worked with the Lyceum theatre company and did quite a lot of their sets, their props. So she was really into theatre.

In the depth, actually, in terms of the artwork, can't you? This sort of theatricality of it. Yeah, so a lot of it was inspired by Shakespeare. So actually, like, some of it is of the time, but a lot of it is also taking inspiration from, you know, centuries ago. But what I really like about this deck, she created like a whole new system. So before this, the tarot cards had been a little bit more just like a deck of playing cards where, you know, like for example, the minor arcana, like the five of ones would have just been like five sticks in the line. But she actually decided, you know, let's make it easier for people to read. Let's create a story because let's add layers. Let's add depth to it. And she took a bit of inspiration from the

Sola Busca tarot, which was in Italy and around the 1500. So they'd started to illustrate some of the cards. Like, for example, they had the three of wands and the three of swords, like one with the head with ones through it, one with the heart with swords through it. And she took inspiration from there, and we can see that in the cards. But it was her and our thread would Waits Innovation

to actually go, let's make this more universal. Let's make it so people can actually, you know, take this into their own hands and see what's happening and use it to tell a story. And again, it's that very meditative process of accessing those layers and spending time with the cards and thinking about your interpretation. as well, which I love about this.

I think it requires a lot of introspection. And actually in our digital world today, it requires you to stop and really spend time with them and think about where you are, what your perspective is. I think that's no bad thing. I think that's a really useful thing. Yeah, and it's interesting to see that now and how that maybe is different now than it was in the 1500s

or what we were talking about in the beginning. But Melissa, I kind of wanted to do. know a little bit, if you don't mind, a little bit more about your involvement in these readings and how that kind of presents itself for you? Because, you know, do you have to, as a practitioner, do you have to put up safeguards for yourself when you're doing this a lot? You know, you talk about different atmospheres, so sometimes you're in a club or sometimes you're whatever, and that's maybe a different type of thing. And do those atmospheres lend themselves to different types of readings? How do you move through the practice in those different spaces and how

how does it impact you? I think it's very different for every person that comes to see me. So I always think that no two readings are the same. And in a way, I guess I'm a little bit of a camele when I'm doing readings and the language I use will mirror whoever's sitting in front of me. And it's just about making them feel comfortable, actually. I'll normally always offer a choice of tarot decks as well because I think, again, like I don't ever cold read people, but I think it's interesting to see what decks people use. And then again, like, they have their own. personality is the tarot deck. So some might be a little bit more comforting. Some might be like quite blunt, quite harsh. And so it's kind of having an extra person in the room. I'm working with

the client. I'm also working with the energy of the tarot deck. And the reading is sort of a collaboration between all three of us. So I always lead the reading. But again, no two clients the same. I have people that come to see me for an entire hour and don't say a word. Some people, again, like I'll explain that I'm not doing a psychic reading. Some people don't even tell me their name because they like to challenge me. Okay. Some people will come in and quite often, if someone's going through a stressful time and they've always relied on tarot, they'll see it as a comfort.

So sometimes people will come in and they'll be crying before they've even sat down and done any cards. So it really depends on what the person's carrying. A very memorable event for me was, I did a Halloween party a couple of years ago, which was in a bar. Everyone was dressed up for Halloween. Everyone had had a few drinks. And I was just doing tarot readings at the corner at my little table.

and a man came over who didn't, not that there's always a type to have tarry readings, because everyone is welcome, but a man came over who didn't look like, you know, the typical client I'd get. And he sat down, pulled over cards and like turned over the cards,

justice and judgment came up. And he burst into tears and said, I've been cheating on my wife. And I wouldn't ever, the client sat down from it, I wouldn't ever insinuate, especially with that combination of cards that they'd been doing something like that.

But he saw it as like a confessional. And then we, you know, we spoke through it. I don't give any judgment. And again, I would never say that to somebody without them proffering that information. But he felt better after he left the table. But he was just so shocked by it. Like, again, he was quite skeptical,

was just coming over after getting his drink at the bar. And suddenly, wow, like... And can I ask, in a situation like that where he proffers this information, and you're saying that you would never have come with that, you know, you would never have gone. I think this means that you are choosing on your wife. Nonetheless, are there two layers to a reading

where you are, there's information that you're happy and willing and you feel it's, you're responsible for giving and other information that you're like, in the context of this reading right now today, I'm just going to hold back that 5% because it's not life-changing it's and whatever else, but if I were to communicate that now, that could cause tension or it could cause upset or whatever it is, do you have to balance that or is it your responsibility to go, here it all is, and this is what I'm seeing and this is what I'm reading. I think I'm normally quite honest. And again, like, if it is something that's big or difficult, I'm not just going to drop a bombshell on someone or have a conversation around it.

But often with readings, I've learned that if there is something like if a tower moment or a death moment comes up, people are already like even just subconsciously, they're expecting something like that. So if someone's coming in, for example, and they're having a really bad time, like they might have just lost their job, they're not having a great love life. And they come in and every single card on the table is incredibly positive, but they are having the worst time of their life. it's not going to be a realistic reading because things aren't like that and things aren't just going to magically change. So I think it's all about helping a person understand what they can do,

like what actions they can take to be able to take some control because with tarot, yeah, we could just sit around and tell people this is what's happened, this is what could be happening. But it's great to actually give somebody the tools to say, hey, if you took this action,

this action, this action, you might be able to get a different outcome. So it's giving solutions. Now, Melissa, Are you willing to read our cards for us today? Yeah, of course. Do you want to go first? No, I want you to go first.

Okay, I'll go first. Have you had a tire reading before? I did once at a party, but I'd had quite a lot of champagne, so I don't really remember it. I don't think I took it that seriously. And to my great shame and regret, actually, because I really am super keen for this now. Amazing. Well, welcome back.

Thank you. Did you have any questions you wanted to ask the cards today? Oh, gosh. Well, I suppose at the moment, this episode, in fact, is going to be the last episode that's going out before I leave, maternity leave. So I guess I'm a little bit curious about what is in store for me in terms of that experience. And, you know, I'm stepping away from my work for a little while.

So maybe what that might feel like and the direction that might take. Okay, that is a big question. Let's have a look and see. I want you to shuffle the cards for me. It doesn't matter how good you are a shuffling. I want you to physically handle the cards and put your energy into the deck. Just until it feels right. Quite hard to shovel because they're so large compared to a playing set.

I'm bad at shuffling. Yeah. They are lovely to handle them. They are so beautiful. Okay. Do I give them back to you now? Yes. Do you want to go from the top or do you want to cut the deck?

Oh, I'll cut the deck. There we go. Fabulous, which part are we using? This one, I think. Excellent. Let's have a look and see. Okay. You've got really positive cards. Oh, okay. That's a relief.

Really lovely cards. The production team is cheering to start a sight. Yeah, there you go. Wow. So that's a baby on a horse. That is a baby on a horse. That is my future. He's going to be a horse rider. So you have quite a lot of horses actually coming up in this.

But looking at it as well, it feels like, actually like within yourself with the six of ones coming up. This is about you actually knowing that like you're in a good place. It's all about celebrating your wins. And so whether that's within work or like outside of work, it feels like actually there's like harmony within yourself. So, you know, obviously having a baby is a huge thing. But looking at the cards, it feels like you are well equipped to handle it. What I would say is quite interesting is looking at the energy that comes up. We have the night of warns kind of coming up in the center here for your energy right now. Like you kind of just want to get on with it.

Yeah. Like the Night of Ones is very much like fiery. They're passionate, they're creative. They're quite fast moving. And so it's almost like, you know, you kind of just want that part over and done with. Yeah. I think that's exactly right. That is how I feel.

Wow. Okay. So that's the Night of Ones. Where do we go from there? So we've got the sun at the top. So I would read this, the one at the top as your kind of like conscious energy or your like mindset. And the one at the bottom is like your subconscious energy or like what's going on kind of like heartwise. Okay.

set is just very positive. I love the fact that we actually have the son, which has a very carefree small baby on it. Yeah. This is great. It's actually one of only a couple of cards in the deck that has children on it. So sometimes tarot can be quite literal as well, which is wild. That's freaking me out a little bit that that's come up, to be honest. Wow. Okay. But what I really love about this, again, this is why with tarry, you can't read, like, a person you have to read the cards. You know, like, stereotypically, if we're doing a tarot reading, we'd look for more of, like, the maternal, like, parental figures. But actually, you've got, like, some of the youngest energy in the deck. So it feels like actually it's almost like you're getting ready to

relive your childhood in a way as well. Like there's just a very sweet about this. Like a very playful energy coming out. Obviously you'll have all the concerns. But the sun is just a really vibrant, beautiful, optimistic card. This is honestly lovely. This is so nice. Okay. So what about talk to me about the night of sorts of. If you're saying that's the subconscious. Yeah. So this is am I actually a psychopath underneath? Well, no. So this is the only one where there's like little bit of tension going on and this is the anxiety so with swords in taro sometimes they are associated with just feeling a little bit off again like this isn't something that you're letting kind of come out so people wouldn't know it if people look to you they wouldn't be like oh my god

your bag of nerds or anything like that but it's just again like interestingly like having these two nights coming up it just shows that you kind of like have the energy just to get on with it but it's just a reminder as well like with the knight of swords coming up in the subconscious just because again it can be quite fast and quite frantic it's just saying like slowed out Like whatever's going on right now, we just need to slow down and take time with it. Well, that's nice because this is the last week of work for me. So I definitely need to slow down. Okay, finally the King of Wands.

So the King of Warns coming up as the final card is like what's coming in next. And what I love about this, obviously, like, again, it's massive upheaval. But the King of Wans is actually incredibly stable. So you've got a very stable card. And what I like most about this, I don't know if you can see there. But not the King. Can you see what's down in the corner? Is that a little lizard?

It is. It's a salamander. Do you know why salamanders are so magical? No. Two reasons. So first reason, they can withstand some of the highest temperatures of any creature on the planet. So this is really just showing that obviously, you know, you're going to go through like a massive change and your whole life is going to be turned upside down in a way. But you've actually got everything that you need to be able to withstand that. Okay. And then secondly, salamanders are regenerative. So if a salamander loses its tail between some rocks, it can grow a new one. So it's showing that there's this whole new side of you. you know, that's coming out after this as well. So obviously King of Ones himself doesn't look like that transformative, but the Salamander is all about a different side of you evolving from like the flames essentially. It's like Phoenix from the Flames energy. Nice. I'll take that.

I actually will. I love this for you. I love this for me. And it's confidence. It's like it's strength. It's confidence. It's also a reminder as well just to lean on the people in your life as well. Because while the King of Ones and the Salamander aspects represent you,

there's also a part of this that can represent, you know, like your wider family, your community, the people that are here to support you during this process. Yeah, yeah. You will be changing nappies. I don't know if that's in the cards. But yes, I don't. Your cards will all be nappy related. Wow.

That's amazing. This is honestly, this has made my day. This is so interesting. And feels so, you know, we can talk about the cards sort of coming up because they're meant to or whatever. But I think it just is so useful for thinking about your own personal circumstances and where you're going. I honestly think this is so interesting.

Plus, there's a baby on a horse. Yeah, there's a baby on a horse. So there we go. Wow, Melissa, thank you so much. You were very welcome, and I would definitely feel positive about this. Again, you've got some of the most cheerful cards in the duck coming through. Wow. Go me.

God, this is where I got loads of dire. It must be so dark. So, is this your first time having a tarot reading? No, this is my third time. Once, very similar to Maddie at a party, which I was in the corner of a room. I don't really remember. The second was much. more in depth, it was an hour long, but I was saying this before as well. I don't remember it,

but I remember being very glad that I did it, but I have no memory of it at all. So that's a strange position. So I'm intrigued. Okay. So we're approaching this from different perspective this time. Did you have any questions you wanted to ask the cards? I think let's go with career. I think let's look there. Over to you. Shuffle and put your energy in and just let me know when it feels right. Don't watch me do this because I can't do it. This is pointless to say to a YouTube team. Wild levels of show.

I said, don't watch me do it. I'm not looking. Because now look at the energy you're making me put it into the cart. No, I'm joking. I'm joking. Okay, okay, I think we're there. And then I need to have them, right? If you would like to, we can go from the top.

It's whatever feels right. Whisper. I don't know. You're scared. Look at that. Okay. Okay. You also got the King of Ones. There's something in this room.

Clearly. So looking at it for you, again, I actually really love this, because the way that you're showing up in terms of your energy, you've got two kings as well, which is a fantastic sign of, like, you know, like of confidence in yourself. But the King of Pentacles is incredibly grounded, incredibly secure. And so it's saying, you know, however you're feeling right now, you can be really proud of everything you've achieved.

So there's something here whereby the King of Pentacles, you know, has done the time they've put the effort in. And you've built really solid foundations. So whatever comes next, which we'll talk about, because we have an ace, I love an ace. But whatever comes next, it feels like you've got the opportunity to either build on what you've done directly or go down a rabbit hole and try something different and possibly have both at the same time. So there's definitely something new coming in for you in terms of career. And we'll talk about it when we get there. But right now, we have the eight of swords showing up. So don't panic with this one, because I know it again.

it's probably the most stressful looking one on the table. It does look quite stressful, yeah, yeah, yeah. But, you know, it's somebody between some swords, they've got a blindfold on, but they're not coming to any harm. And the key with the eight of swords is all about digging deeper and using your intuition. So if there's something you want to do career-wise, and it doesn't feel like it's perhaps the most logical step. It might not be in line with exactly what you've done so far.

It might be a little bit of even like a risk. But it's saying go for it. It's trusting yourself because the very, very worst case, again, you've built up a really good reputation. you're very established over here is the King of Pentacles. So if you did want to take like a side quest, it feels like it's there for you. This is so you.

This is, I'm really seeing you in these. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then again, like mindset, we have the King of Wands showing up. So again, it's that whole like resilience, but again, the Salamander analogy where you're open to change the flexibility of it all. And it's also thinking as well, like, about the people that you like to work with

and how you inspire others, because sometimes with the King of Wands, there's almost a sense of, like, leadership or mentorship here as well. So it's thinking about who you reach out to, who you connect with who else is involved in the process. But there's expertise here. And then down in like the subconscious of the heart area, you have the very cute Nine of Cups card actually, which is like your own personal fairy godparent who's here to grant all your wishes. But what I really like about this card being down in the subconscious is if there is something that it might sound very silly, but there's a dream or there's something that you've always wanted to achieve and you've never gone for it.

Maybe it's too scary to go for it. it's having the confidence to do it and the time might be soon. Oh, wow, okay. Time might be soon. Right, that's interesting. Because out of all of them, I'm not saying we're leaving the podcast,

but you have the new job card coming in with the ace of pentacles, which is coming in out of the blue. And so it feels like, again, this could be like a sideline or something else that you're doing because, again, you're so established in how you were showing up as the King of Pentacles,

which is fantastic, that this card actually could be a new door opening. And the way I see the ace of pentacles, it's like a seed, and you need to plant it and nurture it and water it. But at the moment, like, again, this could be anything that you want it to be. How are we feeling?

This is going to sound like maybe a strange word, but maybe it's not a strange word for you, but a lot of that feels logical. I think I'm constantly on a side quest, constantly in various forms. And there's... There's always a new project for you. There's always a new project,

because I used to be an actor before I did my PhD. I still am an actor. And so it's like combining those worlds is an ultimate kind of goal as to what that's going to look like and there are, you know, some things that are bubbling away and have been for years.

And so there's sense in there. I see what you're, I see what it's telling me. That's good. Do you know what this one was about? The kind of like the big dream like down in the subconscious that almost feels too scary

to voice out loud. I've literally been saying to people that I came across a, I have a goal that has happened in the last month that I literally said to somebody yesterday, I can't tell you about it because it'll seem silly. But I think I might know what that is. Amazing.

Yeah. Yeah. That's all good. Wow. Give it some time because it's here for you. It's my 10-year plan. I love that. Oh, even before that.

Okay. Yeah. Yeah, it's part of a 10-year plan. But yeah, it's there. Like you say, because of the position of the cars, it's bubbling away just below the surface, this one. Mm-hmm. This has been so interesting and so useful for thinking of our own lives. Yeah.

And, like, just so. contemplative, actually. And I mean, I'm going to go to you again and I'm going to do an hour at some point. Amazing. It is really interesting and it's about that thing about taking stock and showing up. And all of that vocabulary is part of therapy speak and is part of all of that. But it's also about being present with yourself and then just tuning into those things and asking questions and helping yourself find answers and paths through it. And I don't know about you, but obviously, you know, for doing the reading, we've set the studio up slightly differently, and we've lowered the lights and all of that.

But I do feel that this experience has been a sort of an energy shift in terms of, I feel like I've been sort of, this is going to sound really therapy-speaky and kind of wanky, really, but I feel like I've sort of been held in this nice space to do, and taking the time to do this. So thank you for that. Yeah, thank you for having me. That's properly special. I think maybe, if you're up for it, we should have Melissa back once a year.

Yeah. to like just do this as a little touchstone thing as a, I like it. I have the producers of like, why is Anthony now producing the show? But I don't know. There's just something about it. There's just, yeah, thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you.

Well, go and find Melissa, wherever you want to Google and search. Are you on social media as well, Melissa? What's your hand-gled? Yes, I'm on Instagram at Mercury Tarot. Okay, Mercury Tarot. Go and look that up and book in with Melissa because that was, it was actually, as we keep saying, it's just so grounding, so very calming. and just a really lovely experience.

Thank you so much as ever for watching and listening to After Dark. We will see you on the other side with not Maddie beside me. I know. It's so sad. I'm coming back. Yes, she'll be back. She'll be back. I'm not going forever.

It's so weird. It'll be short time. We'll fly by. All right. Take good care of it while I'm gone. Okay. We'll see you soon.