After Dark: Myths, Misdeeds & the Paranormal - Queen Victoria's Funeral & the Cult of Death

Episode Date: November 14, 2024

Queen Victoria was synonymous with grief and the Victorian cult of death. Yet her own funeral wasn't that at all. Today Dan O'Brien explains to Anthony Delaney and Maddy Pelling how to bury a Queen like Victoria.Dr Dan O'Brien is a of historian of undertakers and funerals in Eighteenth Century England and researcher at the Centre for Death and Society, University of Bath.Sign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries, with a new release every week and ad-free podcasts. Sign up at https://www.historyhit.com/subscribe.  You can take part in our listener survey here.After Dark: Myths, Misdeeds & the Paranormal is a History Hit podcast.

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connecting you to qualified professionals via phone, video, or message chat. Let the gratitude flow. Visit betterhelp.com today to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp.com. Osborne House on the Isle of Wight off off the south coast of England, had long been where Queen Victoria would spend her Christmases. Her beloved husband Albert had helped to design the house, and it had been embellished since

then to reflect the uneasy empire over which Victoria reigned. But after the Christmas of 1900 had passed, the bells had peeled, welcoming the new year, one could sense death lurking in the corridors of the house. The Queen's health was failing. There would be good days and bad days, but her physician, Sir James Reed, knew the end was nigh. Victoria was incapable of walking and her eyesight was fading into blackness. Her prodigious appetite had gone and she'd lost almost half her body weight. Family gathered round, including her eldest son Prince Edward, and her eldest grandson

Kaiser Wilhelm of Germany. Both were there with her at the end, the Kaiser kneeling by her bed and supporting her with his arms until her dying breaths. On Tuesday, the 22nd of January 1901, at half past six in the evening, Queen Victoria died at the age of 81. Fifteen minutes later, a policeman walked down the long driveway of Osborne House and pinned a notice to the gates where members of the press were waiting. Great coats and fedora hats keeping out the bitter cold. Osborne House and pinned a notice to the gates where members of the press were waiting, great

coats and fedora hats keeping out the bitter cold. When they read the notice, they took to their heels and ran back down the hill to the seaside town of cows, yelling the news as they went, Queen dead! Queen dead! But what happened next? How do you bury a queen like Victoria? Hello and welcome to After Dark. Today we're talking about the funeral, you might have guessed it, of Queen Victoria. Now the question is, how do you bury the Empress who became in many ways the living embodiment of death and grief in her own time. The answer,

as it turns out, is a little bit unexpected. To guide us, somberly, through this topic is Dr Dan O'Brien. Dan is a visiting research fellow at the Centre for Death and Society at the University of Bath. His research focuses on the 18th century funeral trade, but really he's an expert of all things relating to the business of death and dying. Dan, welcome to After Dark. We have been waiting such a long time to get you on the show. We are genuinely very over excited you're here, so welcome. Thank you. I'm really excited to be here myself and I think as anyone who knows me

would know that any opportunity to talk about death and I think as anyone who knows me would know that any opportunity to talk about death and the trade is something that I will just pounce on. So it's very much appreciated. Well, you're in the right place today. We're going to talk specifically about Victoria in a moment, but why are funerals and death important to look at and what can they tell us about history? Okay, so firstly, why are funerals important? Well, I think funerals are an attempt to respond to death. You know, this constant ever-shifting world that we live in faces the same challenge.

Death is essentially a string throughout history and every society that encounters death, as we all must, uses funerals as a way of expressing what is most important to it at that time. So I think if you're studying history you can look to a funeral and you can see those elements which people in that moment of crisis are regarding as being most important to them. What are those things that they see as defining them and the times they live in? And I think, you know, I look at all the different funerals I've studied and there are so many fascinating examples of funerals being shaped by people and time and sometimes quite specific moments in people's histories. And yeah, funerals are just a really interesting description of those.

Let's just get into the 19th century. Let's get in the mindset here. Do you think it's fair to say that people in 19th century Britain, the Victorians, were obsessed with death? Is that accurate? Paul There's definitely a really fascinating culture of death in the 19th century. Death is visibly much more present than we would imagine it to be now. There are lots of visual reminders of death in one's community. There are lots of different symbols that people deploy, closed curtains, muffled door knockers on a house. If you're affluent enough, you might have a couple of funerary mutes stationed outside your house. These are all really intriguing visual reminders to people in the urban landscape that

death is present. I think what's also really interesting is that certainly at the beginning of the Victorian period, we still have a very interesting moment where people are being buried within their own parishes before the development of those cemeteries in the 1840s and 50s, before the Metropolitan Internment Act in the 1850s drives parish burial out to the cemeteries. And when people are dying in a parish, their bodies are being transported through the parish. So there are those visual reminders of the deaths of those we know and those we might know, but also the deaths of others as well

that we don't know at all. And it's something that's really interesting that we see people writing about at the time, how the commonness of funerals, the frequency of funerals that you see, takes away some of the horror of it. People become desensitized in a way. And I think seeing those things more puts the prospect of death in one's mind more keenly. LW What's fascinating, I suppose, about the funeral of a monarch in particular is you have this pageantry and this very public performance of the state, of the role of the monarch when alive, the treatment of the monarch when dead.

Of course, I suppose any funeral of a royal is a moment of change. We're thinking about the past, but we're also thinking about the present and who the crown will go to next. You have that very public side of the funeral. There's also a very intimate side, a side that deals with the mortality of a human being and the body of a human being. You mentioned there Victoria's coffin and her direction specifically relating to her body, what the coffin would look like and what would go into it. Can you tell us a little bit more about that? Because I think that tells us so much about not necessarily Victoria the Queen, but Victoria the person. Paul Anthony So Victoria's directives for her coffin are

a really fascinating insight into her as a person and her, not only her kind of vision for the future, but also her sense of biography as well. This attempt to encapsulate those important moments in one's life in the space that you will inhabit essentially for eternity to the end. Victoria specifies these items which are to be placed in her coffin by a series of trusted individuals, her dressers, and her doctor.

These represent different importanters and her doctor. And these represent different important moments throughout her life. They are a mixture of jewelry items, various different jewelry items, mementos from different members of her family, from her grandchildren and places she's visited. For example, we have like a little locket with a sprig of heather from Balmoral, which recalls her relationship with that place. We have various different grandchildren remembered with mementos. We also have Albert's. We have this plaster cast of Albert's hand, an item which not only represents Albert, but has been close to Victoria throughout her life. It's something that she used to go to bed

with. It's something that she's been physically close to and goodness knows what happens. For listeners who can't see us right now, I'm pulling such a face here. Sorry, can we just rewind, Dan? She went to bed with a plaster cast of Albert's hand. A plaster cast of Albert's hand. In some ways, I've kind of guarded myself from thinking about what happens there, but I just... Yeah, I was like, I'm not asking any questions about this. I'm just letting that one go. Yeah. Let's just leave that hanging in the atmosphere. Okay. I mean, in that case, I'm not surprised that she was buried with it if she was already having it close to her

person, let's say, in bed. I mean, that's just fascinating, isn't it? And I love this sprig of Heather from Balmoral. Because I suppose that's the other thing that we all know about Victoria, isn't it? That she really retreats to Balmoral for such a long period and disappears from public view. But that places like that and of course the Isle of Wight as well were incredibly important to her at different times and place itself was so significant to who she was as a person, to her experience of being a mother, a grandmother and a wife, but also being the monarch and ruling often from far away from the majority of her subjects. So that's really fascinating. Yeah, the hand thing though, I don't know if I'm ever going to get over

that. I genuinely didn't know that piece of information and I'm shook. It gets worse as well because the coffin in many respects is one of these spaces which in the funeral we know is going to be sealed. And that gives you a tremendous amount of flexibility as to what you want to put in there. Because if you put the right items in the right place in the coffin, no one will ever know. And the brilliance of this is that the other members of the royal family don't really know what's going in the coffin because these items are placed. If we imagine Victoria in the coffin, Victoria sits on top of a bed of charcoal which is there for predictably practically gruesome reasons. It absorbs, takes some of the

scent away, it kind of cleans everything. And then beneath Victoria there's essentially like a cushion layer that fills the coffin and these items are put below the cushion layer. So we have those mementos, we have the hands, we have little sort of robe that belongs to Albert as well. But at the very end there's a final instruction and the final instruction is where we kind of go beyond all of this kind of biography and an attempt to to capture the known elements of oneself. When we get to the the element which is I suppose slightly scandalous in some regards, which are the items relating to John Brown. Obviously if we think of John Brown's relationship with Victoria, there's a vagueness there which has kind of over time has kind of

fed into lots of speculation. And Victoria leaves this special direction that should be performed essentially with as few people knowing about it as possible. So the help of Dr. Reid is enlisted and when everyone else has kind of gone away he places into Victoria's hand the wedding ring of John Brown's mother, which John Brown gave to her, and an image of John Brown as well, a photograph of John Brown, and a lock of his hair. So these items sit essentially in Victoria's left hand. There are some items pertaining to Albert in her right so we have this kind of really interesting duality of one's experience in life, one's kind of lived experience of different people, different places,

different moments, some of those known and some of those fascinatingly unknown and these are all kind of brought together in her vicinity in the coffin. I just, I think as elements of Victoria's Funeral goes, this is really interesting because it's quite an intimate level of kind of funerary performance, but it was really necessary to her. These were instructions that she gave. She trusted them with people that she knew she could rely upon. They're really moving moving aren't they? It's yeah they are fascinating because it's a way to kind of as you said before in a funeral where you have this kind of very national sense of a monarch you know in a state this is quite

the opposite this is a person and this is a person's life and it's also a person's reflection on their own life you know those moments, those memories that were important to them and those things that they want to keep closest to them. Those things are going to decay with her body in the coffin and they're the things that she wants to, I guess, physically take with her. In case you haven't heard, in the U.S. it's a presidential election year. We're going to hear a lot of, this is America. No, no, you're all wrong. This is America.

But on American History Hit, we're leaving that to the rest of them. Join me, Don Wildman, twice a week, where we look to the past to understand the United States of today with the help of some amazing guests. Let us introduce you to the Founding Fathers, guide you through the West Wing of the White House, and shelter you on the battlefields of years gone by to find out just how we got here. American History Hit, a podcast from History Hit. This is an ad by BetterHelp. What comes to mind when you hear the word gratitude? Maybe it's a

daily practice or maybe it feels hard to be grateful right now. Don't forget to give yourself some thanks by investing in your well-being. BetterHelp is the largest online therapy provider in the world, connecting you to qualified professionals via phone, video, or message chat. Let the gratitude flow. Visit betterhelp.com today to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp.com. I suppose as a monarch, her body is the central point of focus for everyone in terms of the funeral and in terms of afterwards and being able to visit that gravesite. Even though

she is buried with Albert, of course, she's not going to be buried with John Brown. There's something so moving about her mortal remains being left with those items that evoke those physical presences of those men. The combination of all of that in the coffin is a space where without getting too gruesome about it, she will decompose and become at one with I guess, at one with those items. And that's a really, I think, a really powerful and moving thing. And it's a little bit, maybe not subversive necessarily, but it's a very private and pointed act by Victoria to do that and to include John Brown in those, in that space, I think. It's fascinating.

These things are so intimate, as you've been saying, Dan and Maddie, and they pull at the heartstrings slightly, which is the whole point of history in many ways. You hear these little details. But on the flip side, Dan, we have the state funeral, right? We have what everyone else is supposed to see and what everyone else is supposed to feel. And it's been a while since there's been a state funeral. So can you just talk us through what Victoria wanted from this, how she envisaged this state funeral going in terms of what our subjects are seeing? You're right. It is. It's, you know, it's 64 years since the state funeral. So it's

a yawningly long gap of time. And this means that basically, in some respects, you're presented with the opportunity for a blank canvas, an opportunity to do something different, to break from that multi-century run of very predictable, heraldic state funerals. And Victoria is quite clear from the outset that she wants a funeral which she perceives as being a soldier's daughter's funeral. She conceives this idea that her father is a soldier, so she wants what she perceives as being something very different. In real terms, this is a complete break with some of the expectations for a state funeral that we might have if we look to the previous examples. You don't have large processions

of members of the judiciary or privy councillors or various other figures of state, all dressed in black morning robes. It's very impressive, but it's not what Victoria wants. She wants to break from this and have something which in essence is a giant military procession. It's visually a more colourful prospect. There's not so much black here. We don't have lots of people in black morning robes. We have the colour of military uniforms, the reds, the blues, the greens. In addition to that, she's quite clear that she wants a funeral where the main colours, if you like, will not be your

blacks, your greys, but will be purple and white. And purple and white are colours that signify purity, they're colours that signify royalty. They are a really clear break from that expectation of a culture of black mourning in both the spectators and the performers in the funeral. And it's really interesting how those instructions are then followed through in every different element of Victoria's funeral. We see large amounts of purple used. We see a break from, for example, using black horses even. You know, we have these sort of cream-coloured ponies that are used instead. It's small little touches that transform this from being what could have been a rather fearsome, if rather traditional black parade into something which is, I suppose in some ways more representative almost of a Jubilee procession. You know, lots of

soldiers, lots of regal purple, and lots of really, I suppose, elements that we now, looking at state funerals, we've just had one reasonably recently, we'd look at that and we would see that as being quite similar. But this is kind of the point where some of that begins. And I think that's what makes it fascinating because Victoria is really breaking from that tradition, that sort of expectation. So Dan, let's take this step by step now in terms of the beginning of this funeral story, I suppose, this funeral journey. It is a literal journey. We begin with Victoria's body. We know that she's put into the coffin and we know now some of the objects that are placed in there with her. What happens to that coffin next?

Because it is quite the journey, isn't it? Jason Vale It's an amazing adventure. I often think one of the nicest things about Victoria's funeral is you have this multi-stage adventure that tells you so much about Britain at this time. We begin essentially on the Isle of Wight. And the Isle of Wight is a place that's so important to Victoria, but problematically it's so distant from where she needs to be. So in order to get her back to Windsor,

we have this multi-stage journey. On the very first most stage, when we've decided that we're going to have a funeral at which the military are, the very centre and the very heart of proceedings, is essentially a naval convoy across the Solent back to Portsmouth. And to just imagine this for a second, we have the yacht Alberta with the Queen's Copping at the very back of it, visible to all as it passes by, passing between two columns of naval ships, essentially two straight lines of naval ships

forming this really impressive avenue through which the Royal Yacht passes. And as it passes through this avenue of mostly Royal Navy ships, but there are some Portuguese ships, there's a couple of German ships, there's a Japanese ship too, these ships are making their own individual tributes and salutes. The soldiers stand on deck, they present arms, they reverse arms, there are minute guns going, so every minute you'll have the sort of thud of guns as these ships kind of line the route

back to Portsmouth. And this is a really important display of military might, but it's also an opportunity for the Navy, you know, that sort of very important element of Britain's kind of state machinery to put itself at the heart of the funeral. You know, had this been a land procession, there would be no opportunity for this. So they really seize this moment to be at the heart of things. And it's interesting because this is one of the few elements of Victoria's funeral procession that can't really be adequately spectated by the common person. You know, they're back on land, they're waiting in masses on land for this to arrive. But this is one of those elements that gets reported in the newspapers by people who are on the vessels, people who are kind of trying to work out what's going on. It is fascinating to see those little

kind of spotlights as this convoy passes towards land. this amazing quote in front of me here. It says, the yacht was preceded by six torpedo destroyers, moving black and silent like dark messengers of death sent to summon the queen. I love it. Yeah. The interesting thing is that so impressive is this, that you get souvenirs afterwards, which depict the procession. I've seen a giant painted depiction of, again, these rows of ships with the convoy passing through the middle. And you get a sense that it's something that people see not only as a mark of respect to Victoria but also as a demonstration of Britain at this time. At this moment when Britain has been left rudderless, if you like, by its loss of a monarch, we have this reminder

that actually this is a strong country and there's lots of jingoism there. I think we get a fair bit of that as we go throughout. But eventually she does arrive on land. We've had the first stage of her funerary journey. That was a naval stage. We now pass on to the second stage. So she has a little overnight stay. And then after, when the morning comes, it's time for Victoria to embark on the second stage

of her journey. And again, this is a really interesting insight into late Victorian, early Edwardian Britain at the time, because Victoria has to travel on a train and a train becomes involved in the funeral procession. If we think back to George IV, you know, kind of William IV, there are no trains at this time. You know, the previous funerals that we're looking to never have the possibility of a train. But here in Victoria's funeral, we have this incredible railway journey all the way back to Victoria Station. So she's going from Portsmouth all the way to Victoria. And as she travels along this route, there will be people there on the verges, on the bridges, everywhere they can find a space to spectate the train as

it passes through. Now there are some opportune places, this is a steam locomotive and in coldly practical terms that means there are parts of its journey where because of the track and because of the the heights it has to travel slightly more slowly and that affords you a better look. Interestingly a lot of the stations along the line are closed and they're reserved for local dignitaries. So if you're a local dignitary, if you're a little bit higher in terms of status, you can go and watch from a station as the train passes through. Dan, is her body visible on the train? Like if you were going past one of the slope things, is it like a see-through carriage? Have they thought about that or are they purposely concealing it?

I don't mean her body, sorry, I mean the coffin. So she finds herself actually in a converted saloon car that she had actually used in life, and it was specially equipped for the purpose. So on the inside, they've taken out the tables and chairs, they've created this beer in the middle, a sort of a table, if you like, a platform that the coffin will stand on. And there are little kind of seats in either corner so that four people can kind of keep vigil over the coffin as it travels.

I'm not entirely sure whether you would have had a great view of it as it went through, but I think what's really interesting is that at a funeral where we have expressively no lying in state, this funeral train becomes a sort of lying in state, a sort of mobile lying in state if you like, for the members of the public who have been robbed of this kind of expected opportunity, you know, that moment passing the coffin. Here the coffin sort of passes them. And I think what's really interesting, you know, from a funerary perspective is here we

have a funeral train. And this is at a time when coffins were quite frequently transported by train to different locations. People would transport coffins as cargo if a common funeral needed to be transported to a different location. But here we have a monarch using the railway, using that new technology, which I suppose by this time wasn't terribly new either, but was a useful technology. In case you haven't heard, in the US it's a presidential election year. We're going to hear a lot of, this is America. No, no, you're all wrong. This is America. But on American History Hit, we're leaving that to the rest of them. Join me, Don Wildman, twice a week, where we look to the past to understand the United States of today,

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Dana, I'm just looking at a photograph that I've got in front of me of the funerary train. I can see some of those details, those decorations that you've been speaking about, including – I don't know why this is tickling me a little bit. It looks like right on the front of what is a very Victorian-looking steam engine, it looks like there's a crown, which is quite a fascinating idea. I love what you're saying about what is still, as we enter the Edwardian era that's about to become, still a very modern piece of technology and a real symbol of British industrial might and advancement. That it's transformed in this moment to something involved in a state funeral, something that's very

historic, that's often looking backwards and evoking often very medieval or Tudor or Elizabethan elements. Here we've seen something from the forefront of technology and aspiration to the future. I find that transformation absolutely fascinating and the train's involvement generally just not only practical, but very, very interesting in terms of its symbolic meaning. So Victoria is on the train. She's come from the Isle of Wight. We've had her on a boat.

We've had her on a train. Is she going to get to Windsor now? Does she go to London first? What's the next stage of this journey? Cause it seems it's fairly epic so far as you've said, but surely there is going to be a conclusion to it. So our next stage, our third stage, is the stage that we would probably expect. If you're hearing about a royal state funeral, you're thinking, that's going to be a royal state

funeral. There's definitely going to be a procession in London. And again, what's really fascinating is this is a procession in London that far from what we might expect, you know, procession from maybe a royal location to a church or the place of lying in state to a church, this is a procession between two train stations. This is a way of bridging that sort of really practical gap between Victoria Station from Portsmouth and Paddington, which takes you out to Windsor. So our starting point is really practical. We need to transport a coffin. We need to transport a coffin with a full ceremonial complement of soldiers, horses, guns, that

sort of thing. And we need to essentially follow the most feasible possible course from Victoria Station to Paddington. There are loads of really interesting accounts in the days preceding this of the preparations. We hear of a city dressed entirely in morning black and really only really populated by the signs of workmen hammering, the signs of vehicles arriving, stands being put up, and these stands are a really kind of fascinating element of the funeral because there are various different groups along this route who have the means to create these little tiered stands to watch the procession from. They might be military groups, they might be associative groups, they might be local businesses.

There are also some really fascinating locations where these stands end up. There is a description of some stands being arranged on top of the marble arch, because obviously marble arch finds itself on part of that route between Hyde Park and Edgeware Road, where it has to go up to Paddington. So it's really an opportune location. It's also, to my mind, a slightly scary location. I'm not sure why I would want to be kind of perched on a stand on top of Marble Arch, but it would give you a really good view. And I suppose the thing that we have to consider here is that people are starting to think about how this space is going to be used. How are these normal London streets going to be transformed into a theatre of death? Because that's what's coming. People know that as soon as that

coffin arrives at Victoria, but that procession is going to begin. That place will be transformed. And the decorations in that space also have to fit within the new expectations of what this funeral is going to be. Traditionally, if this was a big ceremonial or a state funeral, we'd be hanging everything with black. We'd be hanging shop windows with black, we'd be hanging the lampposts with black. But here we have something quite different. There's lots of purple, there's lots of white, there are lots of evergreen plants and wreaths of various different evergreen plants. So the space that these people are inhabiting, that they're sitting in stands or standing on the street is being transformed into a funerary space. The funerary, I guess we could

call it bunting, informs people's expectations of what's about to happen. It transforms that familiar street into something unfamiliar and spectacular. Is there a sense, Dan, that people are excited to get close to Victoria, even though of course she is deceased? Because that's a concern, isn't it, in the public towards the end of Victoria's reign that she's not very visibly present in people's lives, that she goes off to these far-flung places like the Isle of Wight, like Balmoral, and that she's just not seen in public. So is this an exciting moment where that is rectified, where people feel that they can finally have that proximity to her?

Is that an element of what draws people out onto the street in this moment? MW I think there's definitely a sense within the crowd that this is going to be a moment of proximity and closeness, both to Victoria and also to her children as well, you know, the future. And I think there are some quite fascinating descriptions of the crowd and crowd members in those moments before, where they anticipate that the funeral's coming. They've heard the, maybe the first blast of the minute gun to indicate that the coffin has arrived. And they know that the funeral has begun. But at the same time they're quite excited. You know, there's a sense of anticipation that this moment is going to be passing them.

We hear of people, you know, 60 deep in some areas. There are people who climb into trees and there's a really fascinating description of some people who've climbed into some trees to get a view near Hyde Park. And the people on the ground start to provide food and drink to the people in the trees because they've been up there for so long. And there's this really interesting sense of camaraderie and that it was described at the time that these people liked it because it broke the tedium of waiting. I think to some respects this is people's opportunity for an encounter with the Queen, even if in some respects it's the avatar of the Queen in the form of her coffin, you know, and her regalia on top. There's still a sense that this moment is going to pass right past them. And it's interesting that people describe

looking at the faces of various different people in the morning party of having that sense of connection. Sometimes the members of the party don't look back at them, but they can see them close and they can see the emotion in their faces. And I think it's that sense of attachment with people in a moment that gives the funeral a real sense of a poignancy. I wonder if there was any 1901 equivalent to the Holly and Phil scandal that rocked the United Kingdom just a couple of years ago. scandal that rocked the United Kingdom just a couple of years ago. So we have what's going on in London, and we've seen the journey that she's made from the Isle of Wight. And then my notes say this, Dan, my notes say, meanwhile in Kilkenny, which is where

I am recording this episode from right now. Meanwhile in Kilkenny what? What is happening in Kilkenny? So one element I find really interesting about this, we've been talking about people who are in London at the time, people who are in London waiting to watch the funeral and the sense of connection that they had with the moment. But there's a really fascinating element of the funeral experience that's going on all the way around England and then beyond into the empire. In Kilkenny at this time, there's

a memorial service. And what's fascinating is that memorial service in Kilkenny is essentially a proxy funeral. It's an opportunity for those people who can't be present in that moment to mourn Victoria, to go to a space together and to mourn together as essentially subjects of the Queen and people who miss the Queen and want an attachment with that moment. I find these little memorial services really fascinating because they are moments for people to acknowledge what's going on elsewhere. When you hear how some of these places are decorated, you have a sense that people bring funerary hangings, so places are kind of hung as if they're in mourning.

It kind of creates the sense of being in the space even if you can't be in the space and equally at the same time it serves a secondary purpose which is that if you're in a community this big event's happening you want to be attached to that event you want to be part of it but you also want to act to your your local. You want to be better than the people down the road. And so we do get a lot of kind of really interesting attempts for people to snatch a bit of local loyalty and some bragging rights over neighboring towns for the number of people that attend, for the number of people that participate. I remember there was a particular example. Lots of wreaths were sent to London by various different towns and cities

across the country. And there's a really interesting report about Northampton sending a wreath for Victoria and 20,000 people coming to see this wreath. And it's like this singular wreath carried the hopes of 20,000 people. It's a fascinating story because I think it says more about the town and how the town wanted to be seen necessarily than the moment itself. Now, ultimately, this journey that Victoria is on is going to come to an end though. I'm fascinated by what you're saying, Dan, of all these people going on this spiritual or metaphorical journey with Victoria up until this point, even if they can't be there in

person. They are enacting something of this journey that her body is taking. But it is going to come to an end. So tell us what the last stage of Victoria's funeral is and where she's laid to rest. Jason Suellentrop So Victoria's funeral travels all the way out to Windsor. And at Windsor, we have the funeral, but the funeral is not the end of the story. The funeral is essentially the ceremonial end of the story. Several days later we have her burial and what's really interesting is that when you think about going to places and seeing royal burial sites, we think of Westminster Abbey. In more recent times we might associate George's Chapel at Windsor, another place where Queen Elizabeth II

is there. There are lots of other members. Victoria is interred in the Frogmore Mausoleum, which is this fantastic mausoleum on the Windsor estate. And it's this final, essentially very private place of resting where she's reunited with Albert. And in some respects, it's quite beautiful because she has this grand ceremonial. The grand ceremonial concludes. And at that point, I suppose the very public element of the state funeral is concluded. And then a short time afterwards, we have this very close, very sort of private ceremonial in which her body is finally

interred, is finally reunited with Albert. And kind of, I guess in some respects that journey is closed her journey from the Isle of Wight back to her beloved ends and it ends in the company of the people who are closest to her in life. In some respects it's really quite touching because we've had someone who is both a person but is also an identity and with those two funerals, they're kind of the two ceremonies if you like, the funeral, state funeral ceremony, and then the burial ceremony several days later, you have an end of both of those stories. You have an end of Victoria, the Empress and Queen, and Victoria, the person who ultimately has planned this funerary journey to accommodate for all elements of her character, the elements that people know and the elements that she knows. You're talking about endings there, Dan. You're talking about the ending of her life, of her reign, and of how people are perceiving it. But it also strikes me based on some of your descriptions that we might be entering into, well, correct me if I'm wrong, but we might be entering into the

correct me if I'm wrong, but we might be entering into the end of Victorian concepts of death and dying particularly here as well. You talked about a lot of colour, you talked about a lot of foliage, purples, you know, almost not quite celebratory colours, but at the same time, it's a lifting of a mood. Do you think that's an accurate way to describe the kind of culmination of Victoria's funeral and her death? Yeah, I think it definitely is. I think there's, to a very significant extent, Victoria's funeral marks acknowledgement of where funerals at this time are going. This move towards reform and restraints and an attempt to put personality at the centre of things, to identify with those things that we see as being most important in our life. And I think this is something which has been happening throughout the kind of the 1870s to the 1890s and beyond. Because Victoria's funeral marks

this very significant shift away from those kind of expectations of heavy black and sombre mourning, we have a, you know, if you like, a funeral which is representative of something more personal, I suppose. And I think it's curious because it's an ending, but in many respects it's also the beginning of a new way of thinking about death. And a way that will in itself be subject to significant change over the decades that follow. But yeah, it's a really interesting start. Listen, do yourselves a favour if you're listening to Out of Dark. Go and find Dr. Dan O'Brien on Instagram because the content, I repost a lot of it because I just, you don't see it on Instagram

very often and it's just some of the most beautiful history of death related imagery videos. You need to check it out. It's really contemplative, but at the same time, full of history. history of death related imagery, videos. You need to check it out. It's really contemplative, but at the same time, full of history. So go and check Dan's Instagram out. Leave us a five star review wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps other people to find us.

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