After Dark: Myths, Misdeeds & the Paranormal - Salem Witch Trials: Interrogation & Torture

Episode Date: August 22, 2024

The second part of our story on the Salem Witch Trials. Anthony Delaney takes Maddy Pelling inside the courtroom as unbelievable stories of witchcraft are told and a terrifying power dynamic reveals itself, which ultimately ends in innocent souls being sent to their deaths.The drama is brought to life thanks to the acting talents of Carolina Hoyos, Jessica Reagan and Don Wildman.Written by Anthony Delaney. Edited by Tomos Delargy. Produced by Charlotte Long.Enjoy unlimited access to award-winning original documentaries that are released weekly and AD-FREE podcasts. Sign here for up to 50% for 3 months using code AFTERDARKYou can take part in our listener survey here.After Dark: Myths, Misdeeds & the Paranormal is a History Hit podcast.

Canada may be known for its landscapes and friendly people, but beneath the surface lies a darker side of crime, history, and the paranormal. Since 2017, the award-winning Dark Poutine podcast has explored the shadowy corners of the Great White North and beyond, delivering chilling tales from a uniquely Canadian perspective. Hosted by Mike Brown and Matthew Stockton with over 300 episodes and fresh releases every Monday, Dark Poutine is your weekly ticket to the creepier side of Canada. Listen to Dark Poutine on Apple, Spotify, Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts. ACAST powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend. What begins as a tragic discovery of a female body in a creek unravels a tale of an international kidnapping,

toxic relationships, and a breakthrough that changes everything. There's only three ways you can enter any environment. One is purposeful, one is accidental, and the third way is by the hands of another. Was it an accident or something more sinister? I'm private investigator Julia Robson, and this is Troubled Waters, a Casefile Presents production, out now wherever you get your podcasts. Acast helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com. Hello and welcome to After Dark and part two of our Salem miniseries. Now, if you didn't listen to part one and you don't know what we're talking about, do go back and listen

to that episode right away. If you did listen to it and you're dying to know what happens next, I will not keep you in suspense any longer, but hand over to Anthony for the next part of the story. Now, following Maddie's account of the events that would lead to the multiple trials of Witchcraft and Salem, I thought long and hard about how best to present the different tensions and aspects of those legal proceedings that followed. After all, to a modern listener, these trials are messy and incredulous and insipid. Yet crucially, at the centre of each accusation and trial and death were real men and women. And so in an attempt to get some clarity, I returned to the primary sources. There, I quickly

realized, was everything we needed to tackle this history together. What follows then is a confession, a defense, and an accusation from various proceedings and trials across 1692. Rather than bend the words and experiences of these women to our own narrative will, I present them here as they appear in their original form, so that their words might once again strike fear and pity and sorrow into our hearts. For, I believe, it is only by invoking their names, their deeds and their lives that we might move some way towards discovering their truth. We begin with the examination of Tituba, who we met in episode 1.

She would become a key witness in all that followed. Now, accused of witchcraft, she was examined by Constable Joseph Herrick. At first she denied the charges, but then began confessing and cast accusations of her own against two women, Goody Good and Goody Osborne. Goodwife, or Goody, denoted a married woman. It was used in many ways like we use Mrs. today. What evil spirit have you familiarity with? None. Why do you hurt these children?

I do not hurt them. Who is it then? The devil for aught I know. Did you never see the devil? The devil came to me and bid me serve him. Who have you seen? Four women sometimes hurt the children. Who were they?

Goody Osborne and Sarah Goode. And I do not know who the others were. Sarah Goode and Osborne would have me hurt the children, but I would not. She further sayeth, there was a tall man of Boston that she did see. When did you see them? Last night at Boston. What did they say to you? They said hurt the children. And did you hurt them? No, there is four women and one man. They hurt the children and they lay upon me

and they tell me if I will not hurt the children they will hurt me. But did you not hurt them? Yes, but I will hurt them no more. Are you not sorry you did hurt them? Yes. And why then did you hurt them? They say hurt children or we will do worse to you. What have you seen? A man come to see me and say serve me.

What service? Hurt the children. And last night there was an appearance that said kill the children. And if I would not go on hurting the children they would do worse to me. What is this appearance you see? Sometimes it is like a hog and sometimes like a great dog. What did they say to you? The black dog said, serve me. But I said, I'm afraid. He said if I did not, he would do worse to me. What did you say to it?

I will serve you no longer. Then he said he would hurt me. And then he looked like a man and threatened to hurt me. She said that this man had a yellow bird that kept with him, and he told me he had more pretty things that he would give me if I would serve him. What were these pretty things? He did not show me them. What also have you seen? Two rats. A red rat and a black rat.

What did they say to you? They said serve me. When did you see them? Last night. And they said serve me, but I said I would not. What service? She said hurt the children. Did you not pinch Elizabeth Hubbard this morning? The man brought her to me and made me pinch her. Why did you go to Thomas Putnam's last night and hurt his child? They pull and haul me and make me go. And what would you have done? Kill her with a knife. How did you go? We ride upon sticks and are there presently. Do you

go through the trees or over them? We see nothing but are there presently. Why did you not tell your master? I was afraid. They said they would cut off my head if I told. Would you not have hurt others if you could? They said they wouldn't hurt others, but they could not. What attendance hath Sarah Good? A yellow bird, and she would have given me one. What meat did she give it? It did suck her between her fingers.

Did you not hurt Mrs. Curran's child? Goody Good and Goody Osborne told me that they did hurt Mr. Curran's child and would have had me hurt him too. But I did not. What hath Sarah Osborne? Yellow Dog. She had a thing with a head like a woman with two legs and wings. Abigail Williams, that lives with her uncle Paris, said that she did see the same creature and it turned into the shape of Goody Osborne. What else have you seen with Osborne? Another thing.

Harry. It goes upright like a man. It has only two legs. Did you not see Sarah Goode upon Elizabeth Hubbard last Saturday? I did see her set a wolf upon her to afflict her. The persons with this maid did say that she did complain of a wolf. She further say that she saw a cat with good at another time. What clothes doth the man go in? He goes in black clothes. A tall man with white hair, I think.

How doth the woman go? In a white hood and a black hood with a topknot. Do you see what it is that torments these children now? Yes, it is goody good. She hurts them in her own shape. And who is it that hurts them now? I am blind now. I'm Maddie. And I'm Anthony. And if you haven't listened to episode one, like I say, go back, listen to it immediately. We're about to get into the trials. We've just heard some of the testimony being given and

there's some of the questions put to Tituba, the character that we discovered in the previous episode. Anthony, I have to say, I say, we've covered so many different witch trials on the podcast. We've done episodes on England's worst witch trial, we've looked at the last witch of Scotland, we've looked at the Pendle witch trials, Bineford witch trials. Salem, for me, feels like something of a different beast, and not just because it's taking place in America. It's moving parts feel slightly different here, I think it's fair to say.

Yes. And because it's somewhat later than some of the more famous, let's say 16th century witch trials, we are left with far more documentation and primary sources than we are in other witch trials. And I think that's one of the reasons it endures, because we have these voices coming from the past. They are sometimes badly recorded, sometimes difficult to read, but nonetheless, these voices, these people, these experiences start to bleed through the archive. And you mentioned in episode one about it's very easy to narrativise these proceedings.

And because we have all this primary documentation, I think that feeds into that. I think it does. And whilst we have to remember that even the primary sources, these recorded conversations during some of the trials, will be subject to their own narrativizations, their own private tensions, private prejudices in the moment that they're recorded. It's the closest, I suppose, that we get to the voices of these people and that's just so tantalizing. Before we talk a little bit about Tituba's experience on trial and how these accusations spread. Can you just give us a sense of the overall shape of these proceedings? In the last episode, we left with Titchuba

being named as a witch and also two other women, Good and Osborne, being named in the village. And suddenly we're at the moment of these women are now on trial. They're not just being accused, they're actually being tried for the crime of witchcraft. And there will be consequences. And they have to now try and save their own lives, try and defend themselves. So what's happening? How does this work legally? How does it work in this community? Well, you make a really clear distinction there. Things that happen in the community and things that happen legally. And both of those things unfold here. So what we see is that before there is a formal trial, there are some informal hearings. And those hearings are taken place

within the community. And this is before the actual trial. But in June 1692, a special court of oyer and terminor, which means to hear and to decide. I love that detail. Oyer meaning to hear and Terminer mean to decide. That came to Salem to hear the cases of witchcraft in a legal setting. And I'm going to give you an overall, we're going to skip ahead here. I'm going to give you an overall view of what those proceedings and those legal and community proceedings look like. But then we'll rewind back and we'll look at some of the

individual testimony from those. But I just want you to have the context of the overall events before we get into the details. So the first to be tried was a woman called Bridget Bishop, and she came from Salem, and Bridget was found guilty, and she was hanged on June 10th. So by June 10th, 1692, people are dying for these accusations. So we've moved from that cold winter into spring, summer, and now people are

already starting to die. So, you know, we're moving relatively quickly here. Thirteen women and five men from all stations of life. And that's really important. It doesn't necessarily happen in other witch trials, but these are people that go from the working poor outsiders to people who have a more established, more authoritative position within Salem society. They follow Bridget to the gallows on three successive hanging days. So there are five people hanged on the 19th of August. There are eight people hanged on September the 22nd and one man is pressed to death then on september the nineteenth.

This all comes to a head and then the court is disbanded by governor william phipps in october of that same year. What before it's disbanded there's gonna be some names here. There's going to be some names here. They're not going to come up in our stories because we're going to concentrate on the victims a little bit more, but it's useful to have a reference point for them, I think. So bear them in mind if you can, but you're not going to need to know them in detail. The court, when it happens, is presided over by Chief Justice William Stoughton, and it's made up of magistrates and jurors. Now, the law did not operate at that time on the presumption of innocent until proven guilty. If you had made it to trial, then you were presumed to be guilty. So these women that are coming for, and men of course, that are coming before these young girls, they are already assumed to be guilty because they've made it to trial.

Now we've touched upon some of the accusers. There is a core group of accusers that we discovered in episode one. They are all girls and young women. They're aged from between nine to 20. So we had Betty, Paris and Abigail Williams in the previous episode. But now I'd like to introduce Mary Daniel. And let's just park Mary Daniel for a second and we'll come back to the role she plays a little bit later in this episode. It included, as I said, members of prominent village families and the working poor, but also involved in these proceedings are enslaved people and servants. So people that wouldn't usually be given much weight inside a courtroom suddenly have a role to play here. Now, we talked about a type of evidence in episode one, but the three types of evidence

that they were looking for in these trials were, first of all, a confession. Now, you might think to yourself, well, they're not going to get that. But as we're about to see, they do. And as we have seen with Tichuba, they do. People confess to witchcraft. And we'll talk about why that might be in a second. They then want the testimony of two eyewitnesses to the acts of witchcraft that they are supposedly experiencing. Now, we know that there are a group of girls and young women aged between nine to

twenty involved in this. They can easily corroborate their evidence. So that's kind of ticked off. They've got that covered. And then for a time, we have what you explained to us last week, Maddie, spectral evidence. This is the evidence when the girls were afflicted having their fits. It's an unseen entity that comes and assails them. And this apparition is supposedly the apparent witch. So this is what gives us the scaffolding for the trials to unfold. LW. It's interesting to me that you say people are accused from all walks of life here, all strata of the hierarchy in and around Salem. Because we do see that in some of the European

witch trials. I'm thinking about the North Beric witch trials where accusations go right up to the king's cousin, I think it is. But of course in those cases, once you get those accusations climbing up the ladder, once they get to those top rungs, they peter out and people shut it down. Because of course the upper classes cannot be accused of this and that wouldn't do at all. And it's fascinating that at Salem, because maybe it's such a closed community, it's so isolated, it's so cut off geographically but also in terms of its very strict religious identity, that these accusations are allowed to almost run riot, that they move from household to household. They're sort of spreading like wildfire really, just to mix my metaphors completely.

There's a sense of unruliness here that nobody is following, I suppose if you like, the rules of how to accuse witches and who could be accused. This just feels like chaos. This is just everybody making these accusations. And of course, the other thing to say here is that the people making the accusations are, as you say, predominantly, if not exclusively, women and young girls. And that feels so insidious. And as we talked about last week, it's so hard to access this late 17th century mindset. And we think about Salem today, our perception of it is very coloured with modern ideas of feminism and the reworking of the witch as a resistant figure. And I think there's maybe a temptation to expect the women in this story to come together and to act in solidarity against the religious

male leaders in the community, the men who were in charge at the courts. Because of course, whilst these women are giving evidence, it will be the men who are making the decisions, who are on the jury, who are in charge, who are sat in the magistrate's seats, all of that. But actually, that's not what we find. And it's so difficult to understand that from any perspective, but I think particularly from our own moment, it feels like someone's told the story wrong, almost. How could this possibly be? It's frustrating. Well, talking about retellings, we have Tichuba's testimony. Now, let's chat a little bit about what we discovered during that and how that in itself is a retelling of something that we are not expecting because what we find

here is a confession. Is that one of the things you're talking about? Is that one of the things you find confusing or unexpected in this case? No, not that she confesses. That's something that we see again and again. And we know that Paris beats her on at least one occasion. She is tortured into confessing. And that's absolutely in line with what we understand.

I think what I find so hard to get my head around here, and it's not unique to Salem, it just feels so prevalent in this case, is women accusing other women seemingly without prompting in the written records? Of course, what we're not seeing here is the violence, the terror that's going on beyond the page that we're left with. But there's something about, okay, she admits to being involved, to being approached by the agents of the devil in the testimony that we heard at the beginning here. But then she is also naming other people. People, it must be said, who have already been named by Abigail and Betty, the young girls in

Paris' household. But here she's reiterating that. She's latching onto that story. Is it to save herself? Is she being fed these lines? Is she being told? We know from other trials that actually when we read transcripts of confessions and testimonies, that often the questions are so leading that you might get on the page a witch saying, I flew off on a broomstick, met with the devil and danced in the forest. But actually in reality, that might look like under torture, someone saying, did you ride on a broomstick, fly through the air and dance in the forest? And a woman under torture is saying, yes, to make the torture stop. So I think it's an interesting sort of gap there between the testimony that we're left with and the reality of the

situation. The other thing to say about Tituba's interrogation there, it's so interesting that she is examined, she's cross-examined before the official trials start. I think you said earlier, there's a first woman who is put on trial and it's not Tituba. Bridget Bishop. Bridget Bishop. And I wonder, is that because of Tituba's status in the community? Is her testimony taken less seriously than the other women?

Is it just an administrative situation? Well, she confesses, doesn't she? So there's no need to try Tituba. She's confessed. So it would be a waste of court time if we were to put her in front of the jury because she's already said, yeah, I did it. So and therefore she can be saved, of course, because she has confessed. But you talked about some of those leading questions. Let's look at some of those questions that Joseph Herrick asks Tituba. He says, why do you hurt these children? Not do

you hurt these children? Now she even then says, I do not hurt them, but he is going in as if going, well, you do. So why do you do it? And then it's so interesting because he goes, did you never see the devil? As opposed to did you ever see the devil? And who have you seen? They're all like, and what did you say? Why do you hurt these children? It's just taking it for granted. And what he's doing is he's queuing up Tituba to fill in the blanks, and he's leading her the whole way through this. And Tituba, it's actually a real testament to Tituba's imagination and her knowledge and her wisdom about what one might expect from a witch at this time. Because what she starts doing, and maybe we can look at some of these things is she starts ticking off a list. This is what I saw. You'd expect this from a witch.

I saw a yellow dog. There was two rats actually. One of them was red. One of them was black. What did they say? They said you need to kill the children. So she starts giving us what we need to confirm witchcraft. Oh, here we go.

Here's the evidence from one of the witches themselves. She is utterly, utterly compelling. But she's been given a narrative framework from Herrick with which to condemn these other women. I think just as a side note to that as well, it is imaginative, but it also something that always strikes me about witchcraft evidence is that often instead of saying, you know, I saw a 20 ton dragon flying through the air, it's the objects and animals of the everyday landscape. It's the broomstick, it's the cauldron, you know, normal items in anyone's kitchen in this period. It's dogs, it's rats, normal animals that

would be running around the streets. It's never, I don't know, a purple hippopotamus or something. Like it's always very, very specific to the place they're in. I suppose it comes down to this idea of reality being altered in some way and the familiar is bewitched and changed and these animals suddenly take on a different dimension or a different sort of salience. That is in and of itself so terrifying and of course that's the foundation of every horror film and ghost story, that the everyday and normal is changed in some way. And you can see why people would find it so scary. Who is overseeing this? Who is asking questions? Because it's not simply Tituba in a room with one man. There's an audience for this. There are more people involved.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Despite the fact that this isn't the official trial, there is an audience. So she was, Tituba was questioned on the 1st of March 1692. So remember the trials don't begin until June 1692. And we have people from the community overseeing these interrogations. The first person involved was Jonathan Corwin. Jonathan was about 51. He was a wealthy merchant and he was related to one of the other questioners on this committee, which we'll come to that in just a second.

And these, remember, are the proceedings prior to the establishment of the court of Oyer and Terminer. Next up, we have Thomas Danforth. He's 68. He's a large landowner and he is sympathetic, surprisingly, to some of the accused witches because he will have known a lot of them. Think of some of those older women that have been accused by these young girls. He is a contemporary of them as opposed to knowing the young girl so he has some sympathy towards these witches and later Danforth will go on to question the manner in which. Some of the official or in terminal trials are conducted so he's an interesting character on this but it's interesting to know that there is potentially somebody on. But it's interesting to know that there is potentially somebody on the supposed witch aside on this questioning committee. And then we have Jonathan Corwin's relative brother-in-law, John Hawthorne.

He again was a merchant and he encouraged those accused to confess. And he kind of took on the hardline prosecutorial role so he would say look if you confess to this then that your best chance of surviving later if there is a full on trial and he is the great great grandfather of the author nathaniel hawthorne who wrote the scarlet letter amongst other things and that nathaniel hawthorne changed his the spelling of his surname to distance himself from John Hawthorne, his great-great-grandfather, because he was so ashamed of his role within the Salem witch trials. That's so interesting because I'm pretty sure I've read a Hawthorne short story once about a witch's Sabbath, which takes place in a forest and is written in the language of the 17th century, which is fascinating. So he's obviously interested in his ancestors' involvement, even if he was ashamed of it, that's fascinating.

Okay, again, I think it comes down to maybe we have a perception of the witch trials as being young and vulnerable girls on the one hand, being accused and making the accusations, and that's complex in and of itself. But then up against them we've got this committee of men, you know you said here we've got Jonathan Corwin who's 51, Thomas Danforth is 68 and John Hawthorne is 50. These are older men in the community, they are powerful men looking down upon, interrogating, dragging through the dirt, questioning, undermining the women mostly who are coming before them. But of course, it is more complex than that. In the case of Danforth, as you say, I don't know if I would go so far as to say that he's sympathetic,

but maybe he is aware that this is getting out of hand and he wants to do things right and he sees some of the treatment of those accused and the legal proceedings and maybe the holes in those legal proceedings are subjected to, the violence, the leading questions, and he does have a problem with it. And I think it emphasises that point that we spoke about in episode one, that this is a community of settlers, people who have come in from all over and against the odds, against the weather, against their constant conflict with the Native American tribes who've been pushed off the land, the constant struggle against crop failure, against disease in their livestock, all of that. They're struggling against all of that, but they're also struggling against each other. This is a community that has huge tensions. There are neighbourly disputes.

People have differences of opinion. Everyone is passionate about their stance in the world. This is a religiously fanatical community. But within that, there is nuance. There is misunderstanding. There is disagreement. And we're seeing that come out in terms of the accusations themselves, but also in terms of the investigators, that nobody can agree on the right way forward. And even nobody can agree on the right way to defend themselves. So with Tichuba, we saw a confession. And realistically, all that amounts to is a defense for her. She thinks that's the best defense she can offer in order to save her life.

But it's not the case throughout. And to illustrate that, let me introduce goody Martha Corey. The following account of the examination of Martha Corey comes to us from Deodat Lawson, a British-American minister living in Salem during the witch trials in 1692. Lawson attended the proceedings. Throughout, he references Martha Quarry as Good Wife See. On Monday the 21st of March, the magistrates of Salem appointed to come to examination of Good Wife See, and about 12 o'clock they went into the meeting house,

which was thronged with spectators. Mr. Noyes began with a very pertinent and pathetic prayer, and Good Wife C, being called to answer to what was alleged against her, replied, I desire to go to prayer. This was much wondered at, in the presence of so many hundred people. The magistrates told her they would not admit it.

They came not here to hear her pray, but to examine her in what was alleged against her. The worshipful Mr. Hawthorne asked her, Why have you afflicted those children? She answered, I did not afflict them. Who did then? I do not know.. Who did then? I do not know. How should I know?

The number of the afflicted persons were about that time ten. Vis four married women, Mrs. Pope, Mrs. Putnam, good wife Bibber and an ancient woman named Goodall. Three maids, Mary Walcott, Mercy Lewis at Thomas Putnam's, and a maid at Dr. Griggs. There were three girls from nine to twelve years of age, each of them or thereabouts vis Elizabeth Paris, Abigail Williams and Anne Putnam. These were most of them at GC's examination, and did vehemently accuse her in the assembly of afflicting them by biting, pinching, strangling, etc.

And that they did in their fit see her likeness coming to them and bringing a book to them. I had no book. The accusers affirmed she had a yellow bird that used to suck betwixt her fingers, and being asked about it, if she had any familiar spirit that attended her, she said, I had no familiarity with any such thing. I am a gospel woman. This title she called herself by. And the afflicted persons told her,

Ah, she was a gospel witch. Anne Putnam did there affirm that one day, when Lieutenant Fuller was at prayer at her father's house, she saw the shape of Goodwife C praying at the same time to the devil. They were poor, distracted children, Martha Quarry countered. No heed should be given to what they say. Mr Hawthorne and Mr Noyes replied it was the judgment of all that were present that they were bewitched. And only she, the accused person, said they were distracted.

It was observed several times that if she did but bite her underlip in time of examination, the persons afflicted were bitten on their arms and wrists and produced the marks before the magistrates, ministers and others. And being watched for that, if she did but pinch her fingers or grasp one hand hard in another, they were pinched and produced the marks before the magistrates and spectators.

After that, it was observed that if she did but lean her breast against the seat in the meeting house, being the bar at which she stood, they were afflicted. Particularly Mrs. Pope complained of grievous torment in her bowels, as if they were torn out. She vehemently accused said C as the instrument and first threw her muff at her, but that flying not home she got off her shoe and hit Goodwife Cee on the head with it.

After these postures were watched, if said Cee did but stir her feet, they were afflicted in their feet and stamped fearfully. The afflicted persons asked her why she did not go to the Company of Witches which were before the Meeting house mustering. Did she not hear the drum beat? They accused her of having familiarity with the devil in the time of examination, in the shape of a black man whispering in her ear.

They affirmed that her yellow bird sucked betwixt her fingers in the assembly and order being given to see if there were any sign, the girl that saw it said it was too late now. She had removed a pin and put it on her head, which was found there sticking upright. She told her she had covenanted with the devil for ten years. Six of them were gone and four more to come. She was required by the magistrates to answer that question in the catechism.

How many persons be there in the Godhead? She answered it, but oddly. Yet there was no great thing to be gathered from it. She denied all that was charged upon her and said, You cannot prove a witch. She was that afternoon committed to Salem Prison, and after she was in custody, she did not so appear to them and afflict them as before. I think this is a more recognisable, modern feeling reaction to the accusations of witchcraft. So let's start at the beginning. Who is Martha Corey? She's a really interesting woman.

She is a married woman, so hence goodie or good wife. And she is married in Salem village to a farmer and a watchman called Giles, Giles Corey. She being his third wife, she has what we believe to be, although it's really difficult to make this out for certain in the archive, but she is believed to have an illegitimous mixed-race son called Ben Oney. And Ben lives with Martha and Giles, but the Quarries are members of the Church and that comes with a certain standing and a certain respect within their community. And she has a reputation for attending church regularly. She's there, she's known to be godly before all this happens. And you see, and I love this about her because it gives us an idea into, we talk about the idea of belief.

And certainly people believed in witches. And I think probably Martha believed in witches too. But what she does do at the beginning of this whole thing is she expresses scepticism at the claims of the girls and that the devil was amongst them. She just wasn't sold. She says at one point, doesn't she, you can't rely on their testimony, they're just children. She calls them distracted. And of course they are distracted, but they're also distracting. That's the whole thing they're trying to do. They're trying to distract people around them into believing these things. And her husband Giles attends one of these early hearings that's

being conducted within the community. So this is before the June trials. And he told, and this is kind of so annoying, isn't it? I mean, annoying doesn't cover it, but he told the others that his wife was skeptical. Now, can you imagine what those girls hearing that somebody who's relatively well respected, a member of the church that she Martha Corey has doubts that she's skeptical about whether or not they can believe. So guess what happens?

I feel like Giles should have absolutely kept his mouth shut. Shut your mouth Giles. Just go home and be quiet. Go look at the things. See what you're like. I mean, look. It's really frustrating. And they are, in some ways, they are brave to go against the grain and stand up and say, this is nonsense. This is not right. You're taking the words of children at face value. This is silly. But it feels, even accidentally, it feels provocative that Giles walks into those early hearings saying, nah, this is not happening. Just be quiet.

I wonder if it says something about the idea that the wheels hadn't come off just yet, in that by speaking up, you didn't necessarily feel that you were going to be targeted. feel that you were going to be targeted. You know what I mean? That actually there was still room for dissent at this particular point. But that quickly goes because within days, Anne Putnam Jr. Guess what? She sees the spectre of Martha Quarry. And then so do Anne Putnam Sr., Mercy Lewis, Abigail Williams, and Elizabeth Hubbard. Remember, you need two witnesses. So we suddenly have four or five that say, yep, Martha Corey, she's involved. Can't believe she didn't believe us. But now look what happens. Let's just think for a second about the fact they see the specter of Martha Corey.

These are multiple witnesses saying, and this goes back to this idea of spectral evidence, that the devil is taking the form of other people and that they have given him permission to do that. And multiple people here are saying that they have seen not Martha Corey herself, but a faded spectral version of her. The devil has borrowed her form and is moving around Salem doing his evil work using her form. I mean, it's frankly ridiculous. But it's so interesting that so many actual people are saying that this is true. It is incredulous to us. But this tension between belief and skepticism, I'm so fascinated by this, and you know you and I have spoken about this before, because there is this acceptance that

everybody just believed, and that it was part and parcel of everyday life in the 17th century that witches existed. But I think we underestimate the skepticism sometimes and that we don't account enough for that. That's not to say they wouldn't believe those witches, but they needed more evidence. But as I say, it just gets used against them. So it's a very dangerous position to take, right? Well after Dark Listeners, we have an introduction to make on today's podcast and the person we'd like to introduce is probably somebody you already know and if you don't you should get to know his podcast and that of course is Dan Snow, host of Dan Snow's history hit. Dan, welcome to After Dark.

Hey guys, well it's a great honor to be on the podcast, particularly because it's now such a behemoth, it's such a juggernaut. I'm very excited. Are you enjoying being part of the History Hit family? Oh, we absolutely are. It's been such a joy. And early on, it was so nice to borrow presenters from different History Hit podcasts and get to know everyone a little bit, get to know everyone's different approaches

and perspectives to history. And I think, Dan, we're gonna talk not about our own podcast here, but about your podcast. And the thing that I love and have to admit to you, I have been a real genuine listener of your pod for many years, not to out you on the age front here, Dan, but I really have been genuinely a fan. And one thing that I love in terms of that perspective, the angle that you bring, is that it's so you make history so relevant in terms of what perspective, the angle that you bring is that it's so you make history so relevant in terms of what's happening in the headlines right now. Is that just your perspective on history, Dan? Is that just how you see the past and present and how they

interlink? Thanks, Maddie. Yeah, I bet you've been listening to it ever since you were in primary school. Of course. My passion, I came from a family of journalists, but I always loved history. As you say, history is urgent. History is the reason that we got too much carbon in our atmosphere. It's the reason that America and China are eyeing each other up in the South China Sea. It's the reason that Vladimir Putin thinks Eastern or all of Ukraine is part of Russia. All of these things, which are affecting our lives, those of our families, loved ones, children and their children and their children,

all of those things are deeply rooted in our past. So my passion is those episodes where I take up something that we're seeing today, Ukraine, the fervor of the American election, Brexit, Taiwan and Middle East, Israel, Palestine. And I try and look into the deep history. So that is my passion. Having said that, I also just love banging out an episode on Francis Drake or Florence Nightingale, you know, the great narrative stories. I like doing both. I've always wanted my pod. I've never wanted to pin it down. I think like you guys with your podcast, you actually wanted to find yourself as widely as possible because it

just makes it more interesting for us when we go to work. But one of the things that works really well, I think, on your podcast, and if they're after dark listeners who don't listen to Dan's podcast, do because one of the things we share in common is this broad view, but really bringing in, as you're saying, Dan, individual narratives to help locate those histories within people's lives and within the lives of people who are listening today. And what kind of narrative drive do you think mostly appeals to you when it comes to history? Because, you know, we can all do facts and figures, we can all Google. But what is it about those big sweeps of narrative history that really gets your interest piqued? Well, you said it better than I could do, I think, really.

But it's the fact that it's the greatest, they're the greatest stories ever told. Like, the best stories are true stories. And then as well as these incredible kind of dramatic arcs that touch the lives of everybody, it's the human beings within them. It's the fact that we know enough about what it was like to be Archduke Franz Ferdinand as he drove through the streets of Sarajevo that day. We kind of have a pretty good idea of what was going through Kaiser Wilhelm's head as he mulled over the big decisions and Tsar Nicholas as they mulled over the decisions that basically plunged the world into catastrophic war and condemned their own families and their

own regimes to oblivion or worse. So it's just those, as you say, the individuals being caught up in it is so fascinating. So it's telling the big story and then cutting back and reminding everyone that there are families and humans driving these events and becoming caught up in these events. Thinking about some of those stories that we have in Comandan and some of and humans driving these events and becoming caught up in these events. Thinking about some of those stories that we have in common, Dan, and some of those human elements that drive us all, I think, to tell history. The thing that I think we share is a love of stories and history set on ships. Now, we have covered so many ships

on After Dark and they're always the most popular. We've done The Bounty, we've done HMS Terra, recently listened down to your episode on HMS Wager. I say listen, I ran to that. I have never downloaded anything quicker in my entire life. But for After Dark listeners who do love a ship story, can you recommend any episodes on your pod or indeed episodes that are not set on ships, but that people absolutely need to hear. So yeah, H.M.S. Wage that you mentioned, that's just a story that you couldn't make up. Shipwreck and mutiny, murder, an astonishing escape story. And that's true of episodes, for example, on Mutiny on the Bounty, Captain Bly on the

Bounty. I quite liked a recent one. Was Scott's expedition to the South Pole, was it actually sabotaged? It was definitely let down by, well, perhaps incompetence on the part of many people involved, but was it actually maliciously sabotaged? That's the big question. That's a huge one. But if people want to get away from the ice and the water, the desert and the mountains are available. So I've done a series on ancient Egypt recently and a series on the Inca in the Andes, which was an amazing experience. I got to walk the Inca trail through the Andes and just

explored a civilization I knew nothing about. Well, you heard it here, folks. You can get your news and your olds from Dan Snow's history here, wherever you get your podcasts. And honestly, you will not regret it. Download every episode right now. Canada may be known for its landscapes and friendly people, but beneath the surface lies a darker side of crime, history and the paranormal. Since 2017, the award-winning Dark Poutine podcast has explored the shadowy corners of the Great White North and beyond, delivering chilling tales from a uniquely Canadian perspective. Hosted by Mike Brown and Matthew Stockton with over 300 episodes and fresh releases every Monday, Dark Poutine is your weekly ticket, Amazon, Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. So we've seen people defending themselves now against some of these accusations, and

it's so interesting that Martha does do that and that she denies flatly any involvement. But the accusations don't end there, do they? And in fact, they continue to grow. So tell me what happens next. Well, we spoke about Mary Daniel when we were talking about the accusers. And so we're going to come to Mary Daniel now and focus on her accusation, which came very late in these proceedings. But the record of her accusation tells us an awful lot about what accusations looked like and the details they included. Here follows the deposition of a Rowley teenager, Mary Daniel, offered against 77-year-old Margaret Scott. Rowley was located near Tisalem, but the accusations had by now bled from its borders.

Mary Daniel's words were initially recorded on the 15th of September 1692, before being presented to the court a month later. The testimony is hurriedly recorded in now fading black ink, which time has vaguely browned on age-stained paper. The hand rises and folds in elaborate cursive loops, the sound of the pen on the parchment still scratches silently. Within the loops and lines of these scratches, history was made. Said deponent testifieth that upon the second day of the week last, Towards night I was suddenly taken very ill and went to lie down on a bed, soon after

which there appeared to me the shape of some woman, who seemed to look and speak most fiercely and angrily, and beat, pinched, and affected me very sorrowly. I cannot positively say whose shape it was. Ye next night after I was taken very ill again all over, and felt a great pricking in ye souls of my feet. And after a while I saw apparently the shape of Margaret Scott, who, as I was sitting in a chair by ye fire, pulled me with the chair down backward to ye ground, and tormented and pinched me very much. And I saw her go away at ye door in which fit I was

dumb and so continued till the next morning. In some of the fits I had afterwards I was senseless and knew not what I saw, who it was, what afflicted me. In one fit, upon the beginning of it, I saw Good Wife Jackson and Widow Scott come walking into the chamber with their staves. One of them came and sat upon me so I could not stir. Good-wife Jackson I saw no more, nor know if she did me any harm. In another fit I saw Scott in the room who afflicted me in being speechless. I continued so until I went to the said Scott, who, rubbing me by the hand, I had the liberty of speech again as formerly. The last fit I had was upon this last Sabbath day, in which I saw the shapes of four women or five, of whom widow Scott was one. The rest I knew not, nor knew that any did hurt me unless said widow Scott.

Rowley, August 4th, 1692. Mary Daniels swore the truth of the above written evidence to the jury of inquest. September 15th, 1692. Mary Daniels swore the truth of the above written evidence to the jury of inquest, September 15th 1692. It strikes me that as with Abigail and Betty, now we've got Mary Daniels, another young woman, making accusations about older women. And I think there's something in that, right? That it's young, unmarried, generally teenage girls making the accusations about women who are older, who are married, who are widowed, in some cases who are really quite elderly. I wonder if there's something there, almost

an attention seeking or maybe an exploration by the young girls of their bodily autonomy, of their sexuality, of their place in the world and their value in the world. I suppose as well in a Puritan community like this, married, perceived godly women hold a relative amount of power, relative of course to the men around them, and that these young girls who are seen as tempting, as distracting to the pursuit of piety, and who aren't yet settled in homes of their own husbands, and don't forget that Abigail and Betty were fortune telling to see what the husband might look like at the beginning of the story. If there's not something there about the power of women, the youthfulness of women as being actually something of a curse in this community, as something that girls need to explore, that

they feel is oppressing them in some way, how they're perceived, and so they attack the women who are more comfortably fitted into the society that they're part of, and that they flip that on its head. It's the older women, the married women, the widowed women, who become the enemy generally. Well, it's interesting to juxtapose that female tension with the tension then with the patriarchal authority of the men that are involved. Because remember, we have moved on now to the court of Oyer and Terminer. So this is the actual trial. This is actual evidence that's coming forward into the trial. And we spoke about the members of the community that were overseeing the first hearings, the kind of informal hearings, but now lives are at stake.

So this testimony from Mary Daniel takes on so much more weight. But the men that are overseeing this particular trial are Nathaniel Saltonstall, and he's 53, so very much around the age that a lot of the local men who were hearing the things first were. And he is a town clerk and he's been appointed to his role in the trial. Now he resigns within a few weeks, supposedly in disagreement to some of the cases, and he's critical of the trials after his resignation. So it's so interesting that he feels that he can't enact justice from within the trial that he has to leave. So again, we're looking at this thing of contemporary disbelief and contemporary doubt and contemporary worry and fear over some of the accusations that are coming forward from some of these younger women towards, as you were just pointing out, some of the older women.

And he's not the only one, because Samuel Sewell is also one of them. He is 40 and he's a merchant and a printer, so he has a good standing in the community as well. He goes on to be the only judge to express remorse for his part in the proceedings. So we see something that's changing once the actual trial starts taking place. Rather than this absolute belief in what's going on, we have voices of dissent now, who are not necessarily being accused, but who also do feel, in Salton Stalls' case, at least, that he needs to distance himself from the proceedings that he can't dissent from within. And then we have William Stoughton, who was 61. He's a politician who had served in the Massachusetts Bay government from

the early 1600s. So this is Stalworth. He's Lieutenant Governor of Massachusetts Bay from 1692 until his death in 1701. And he is the Chief Justice. And he is key here because he is the person who is very happy to heavily rely on what you have told us about before, Maddie, spectral evidence. So he thinks the spectral evidence is key and that it is enough. So even at this stage in the proceedings, which are quite late on now, and you use this and that it is enough. judges presiding over this case, the men assessing the claims and meeting up punishment, there is this disagreement. Everyone is now at everyone else's throats and no one can really decide what's going on. But I just want to go back to the accusations that young Mary Daniels makes,

and specifically who they're against. Because we haven't heard Margaret Scott's name yet, and this is, did you say she's 77 at the time that she's accused? That's quite elderly by 17th century standards. Who is she? She's not from Salem, right? No, she's not from Salem. She is well known in Rowley in her own community, but she's well known for probably all of the wrong reasons. So there had been rumors of witchcraft that surrounded Margaret Scott for about 20 years in her community. So this may not have come as a shock. She's an obvious person to call out. Yeah. Now she's poor. She's an elderly widow.

She has been reduced to begging. I think what you're seeing here is that the picture is all building up to show that she is an outsider in the community and very much in line with some of the more traditional witches or accused witches that we see in other trials beyond Salem, where it's an outsider, it's somebody who's on the margins of society, somebody who's old, somebody who's widowed, and Margaret Scott very much fits that brief. And I'm going to guess from that description of the accused that the accuser, Mary Daniel, occupies a different place in that same society in Rowley. She does, but you might imagine that she might occupy the same kind of position as Abigail Williams or the like, but she doesn't. She's a servant. Well, we think she's a servant.

Again, the documentation is a little bit sparse here, but she was 19. We know that. And she, of course, needs some support in these accusations. And maybe bizarrely, she gets it from some of the accusers in Salem. So Mary Warren and Elizabeth Hubbard back up Mary Daniel's accusations, even though they're from different towns. But they say that Margaret Scott is one of the people who's afflicting them too. But interestingly, Margaret Warren and Elizabeth Hubbard are also servants. So it's like the servant cabal coming together and making these accusations. So you're right to point out that there's a class distinction between Margaret Scott and Mary Daniels, but it's interesting to see what

that distinction is. And under oath, both Warren and Hubbard affirm that they saw Margaret Scott not only afflict them, but afflict Mary Daniel too, so they're backing her up. LW It's interesting that there is that solidarity. And I think, again, from a modern perspective, we can maybe have a tendency to think about servants as being the downtrodden or the oppressed within the household they worked in. Because they weren't part of the same social class as their masters and they were in a position of servitude, that was inherently terrible to them. I'm not for a second suggesting it wasn't, but I think as well we need to remember that there's a sense potentially that a lot of servants had of loyalty to the household that they were in.

And I think I'm right in saying that in Mary Daniel's case, the master that she serves, the household that she's a servant in, belongs to another minister of the church, right? So here again, we've got someone possibly with an agenda, a religious agenda, and Mary Daniel is upholding that. Yeah, absolutely. And she's almost filling in a template that has been, I mean, let's be honest, Rowley knows what's happening in Salem, right? This news is spreading. This is not just containing itself to the few people that are involved in the Salem trial. So she is acting upon a template that's already been laid down for her. But again, as I said, Margaret Scott is one of those people who is already

identified as being outside the norm within that community. So, for instance, Captain Daniel Wycombe, who's a or Wycombe potentially, is a resident in Rowley, and he had thought that the widow cast a spell that stunned his oxen and it made it impossible for him to harvest his field. So this is all very, very traditional stuff. And these accusations are coming from within Rowley. It then turns to whether or not Scott confesses or denies and she chooses to deny. But she was held for trial because had she confessed, she probably wouldn't have gone

to trial, but she denies it. So she has to go to trial, which, of of course leads then on the 22nd of September, a week after the court heard Mary Daniel's deposition. Margaret Scott was hanged on Salem's Gallows Hill, along with seven other accused witches. They were Anne Puditter, Alice Parker, Mary Eastey, Martha Corey, Mary Parker, Samuel Wardwell and Wilmot Red. It was the last of the executions for 1692, as public opinion began to turn. After the deaths of 19 men and women in Salem, the Superior Court, formed to replace the Witchcraft Court, did not allow spectral evidence as a form of evidence in these trials.

This belief in the power of the accused to use their invisible shapes or spectres to torture their victims had sealed the fates of those tried by the court of Oir and Terminer, but the new court released those awaiting trial. They were pardoned and did not face execution. Finally, after a series of lies and hurt and pain and accusations and death, the Salem witch trials were over. With the witch trials at Salem, I struggle a little bit with understanding what the stakes were for the people making the accusations. And I think realistically these are all individual people who

are accusing and who are accused and who are sitting in judgement and investigating and denying and all of that. Everyone is an individual in this community with their own unique perspective on the people around them, on the reality of nature and the supernatural, on religion, all of that. I think it almost goes on a case-by-case basis, but I'm thinking about, I suppose, obviously the stakes for the people who are accused are huge because many of them do end up dying. But one thing I think I would love to look more into and understand more is how other people benefited from these trials in other ways. Thinking about some of the accusers, especially the young girls who maybe bolster their own position in society. I would love to know what happens in the lives

later on of the children like Abigail and Betty Parris. Abigail Williams and Betty Parris, are they understood to have just made these terrible accusations that were baseless and meaningless? And are they considered responsible for ruining people's lives and taking people's lives ultimately? Or are they seen with a renewed godliness in their society? And then as well, when we look at some of the juries and the committees that are formed by these powerful men in these communities, so many of them are merchants. And presumably being on these committees are great adverts for their businesses, that they're seen as participating in civic life, protecting the people around them from

witchcraft and the devil, but also so many of them are printers. There's quite a few, I think, that you've mentioned who were printers, and I'm wondering if they are printing material relating to the trials and if they're actually making money from them. And it just seems to me that everyone's stake in this game is completely different. And that that's part of the reasons why it's maybe such a mess. I think the biggest tip I could give anybody who wants to know about what comes next is to read Stacey Schiff's The Witch's Salem 1692, because briefly what we discover there is that actually people who are associated with the prosecution in these cases and the accusations become quite tainted with their associations, that it's very much not seen as godly and it's a mark against

them. But we don't have time to explore all of that in this episode but read stacey shifts book is very good and so thoroughly researched it's interesting to see how. Sure there's no legal commitments for what happens for the users but there is certainly some social. Issues that arise for people who are involved with this later on so that's that's. But I think possibly one of the best ways for us to leave this two parter is with the denials of those people who went to the gallows in Salem in 1692. There's nothing more powerful than their words, I think. And there is a memorial on the site now to these people and what they endured. As a way out, we'd like to leave you with their words, and maybe it gives us something to think upon for our own times too.

If it was the last moment I was to live, God knows I am innocent. I am an innocent person. I never had to do with witchcraft since I was born. I am a gospel woman. Well, burn me or hang me. I will stand in the truth of Christ. The Lord above knows my innocence, and that the great day will be known to men and angels. I petition to your honours, no, for my own life, for I know I must die. My appointed time is set, but the Lord, he knows it is that. If it be possible, no more innocent blood may be shed. Thank you so much for listening to this two-parter from After Dark. We hope that you've enjoyed coming with us to Salem to think about these witch trials. We have so many episodes on witches and other supernatural occurrences and their historical contexts, and indeed

a range of other topics that you can find wherever you get your podcasts. We also love to hear from you, we love hearing about your thoughts on existing episodes but also your ideas for future episodes. You can get in touch with us by emailing afterdark at historyhit.com that's afterdark at historyhit.com. This chapter at Salem has been a very dark one in American history. If you're interested in discovering more about American history specifically, including more positive stories as well as those darker ones, then check out our sister podcast, American American history hit, posted by Don Wildman. Canada may be known for its landscapes and friendly people, but beneath the surface lies a darker side of crime, history and the paranormal. Since 2017, the award-winning Dark Poutine

podcast has explored the shadowy corners of the great white north and beyond delivering chilling tales from a uniquely Canadian perspective hosted by Mike Brown and Matthew Stockton with over 300 episodes and fresh releases every Monday. Dark Poutine is your weekly ticket to the creepier side of Canada. Listen to Dark Poutine on Apple, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. ACAST powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend. Welcome to Sincerely Sloan presented by Uninterrupted. I'm your host, professional tennis player, wife, parent, and entrepreneur Sloan Stevens.

As an athlete and as a person, my journey has had a lot of twists and turns, from moments of adversity and doubt to unimaginable triumph and satisfaction. Throughout the season, I'm joined by some of the biggest names in sports, entertainment, culture, and a few members of my tribe. Our conversations keep it real and push it past skin deep. We reveal the perspectives, routines, and products that allow each of us to show up at our best. Join me on my journey of self-discovery and many, many laughs along the way.

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