After Dark: Myths, Misdeeds & the Paranormal - St Patrick: Pirates, Snakes and Goatees

Episode Date: March 17, 2024

He wasn't Irish. He didn't wear green. There were no snakes. So who was the real St Patrick? How did his myth grow? And how did he invent the goatee?Podcaster and comedian Alison Spittle joins Maddy and Anthony today as we head back to 4th/5th century Ireland. Alison's tour dates (including Leake!) are here: http://alisonspittle.com/gigs/Edited by Tom Delargy. Produced by Freddy Chick. Senior Producer is Charlotte Long.Enjoy unlimited access to award-winning original documentaries that are released weekly and AD-FREE podcasts. Get a subscription for £1 per month for 3 months with code AFTERDARK sign up at https://historyhit/subscription/ You can take part in our listener survey here.

Wendy's Small Frosty is the ultimate summer refreshment. And not because it's cool and creamy and made with fresh Canadian dairy. It's also refreshingly cheap. Just 99 cents until July 14th. It's a treat for you and your wallet. Hello and welcome to After Dark. I'm Maddie. And I'm Anthony. And this week we are hopping across the sea to Ireland for St. Patrick and we are joined on this voyage by comedian and podcaster Alison Spittel. Alison, welcome. Hello, I'm so excited to be here. And if you can't see Alison, she's wearing green and now I feel like I've let the

side down because I'm in this canary yellow. Yeah, obviously I'm more Irish than you. That's what happens. The competition has begun. Do you remember when, well, we'll get into some of this because we're going to, Alice and I are going to tell you the story of St. Patrick as we learned it when we were kids growing up.

But the routine of preparing for St. Patrick's Day in an Irish household, like I always remember that morning of like getting your shamrocks on and finding the green thing that you didn't even know was in the back of the cupboard

kind of a thing. It was just putting it together, basically. It was quite exciting. Oh, it was amazing. And what was in the back of the cupboard kind of a thing. It was just putting it together, basically. It was quite exciting. Oh, it was amazing. And what happened for the rest of the day? You might go into your local town and look at the local man who owns a Bentley and he'll drive down in a parade. There's loads of fake beards.

There's loads of tractors. Hats. Hats, yes. Hats galore. Tractors, yeah. Tractors were a big thing. I'm from rural Ireland. Oh, me too.

Oh, really? So in Dublin, they have the really good parade for the Yanks where they have like river dance and stuff like that. That means there's a bit of a brain drain on the rest of the country. We kind of get the dregs. Yeah, yeah. So we get tractors. Yeah, we get tractors for parades.

Sometimes there's a bit of cross-dressing that goes on in that parade. Definitely. There's always two lads in theressing that goes on in that parade. Definitely. There's always two lads in the town that let them. With balloons. Yeah. Balloons up the top. It doesn't really feed into St. Patrick in any way, shape or form. No.

It's an excuse to do it, right? Yeah. But like, they love a parade, so why not do it? And we will find out that we did not, the Irish did not invent that parade. But we'll get into that a little bit later on. Right, Alison. Yes. Let's tell people the primary school version of St. Patrick that we learn as kids when we're growing up in Ireland and how we're sold St. Patrick as kids.

So we learn that we are in a desolate, I think, west of Ireland landscape. And Patrick has been brought to Ireland as a slave, possibly from Wales. And can you remember what his job was? Shepherd. Yes. Wasn't he a shepherd? Sheep man.

He was just, you know, laying back doing his job and he got kidnapped and brought to Ireland. But he was a shepherd in Ireland, but I think he was rich when he was from Britain what?

yeah he was he's a nepo baby oh wow St. Patrick is a nepo baby cancelled I don't like this guy now yeah no rich

like proper rich this is like when you find out your favourite pop star went to private school well that's all of them I know that's everyone so

but so he comes and then he finds himself on the side of a mountain in Ireland, right? Sheep. I think for like seven years. Has he brought the sheep with him? No. The sheep are there. Okay, okay.

Why would he bring the sheep? You said he was from Wales, and he was a shepherd. Wow. Sorry, Wales. You said he was a shepherd. I thought he'd brought the sheep with him. Oh, no, no. He was kidnapped. He's been brought as a slave. Yeah. You said he was a shepherd. I thought he'd brought the sheep with him. Oh, no, no. He was kidnapped.

He's been brought as a slave. Yeah. And now he's a shepherd. So anyway, we're on the side of the mountain. Well, not a mountain. We're on the side of some rural landscape in the west of Ireland with sheep. And he's fasting. I didn't always remember this, but he fasts for 40 days, I think.

So St. Patrick is fasting for 40 days and he's having all these trippy visions and he's having a lovely time. Very biblical. Very biblical. You must have watched Diary of a CEO. I feel like that's real. Fasting for 40 days and 40 nights. I've never heard of it. I don't know what you're talking about. And then the, possibly the most famous

element of which I'll throw to you, Alison, of what St. Patrick does next, which I think everybody knows about, right? In the banishment. The banishment of the... Ha, ha, ha. What did I say? You were going to say it? Snakes.

He got those snakes out of Ireland. We had a big snake problem. And he was like, nah, man, and got them out. Okay. The image you have right now in your head of St. Patrick banishing the snake, what is he wearing? What does it look like?

Oh, he's got a big hat on. Yeah. Like a big napkin kind of hat yeah like a bishop-y hat bishop-y hat lovely kind of red beard I would say

red greyish yeah some sort of tunic yeah tunic-y lad and a big staff but like it's a green it's a green religious

tunic right yeah and a big old gold staff big staff this man is a shepherd that's made up mm-hmm and he banishes the snakes

and then Ireland is... Christian. Christian. Yeah. So that... Am I missing anything? He did the whole shamrock thing. Oh, yeah.

Go on, go on, go on. You do that, yeah. He would teach Christianity by showing a shamrock and saying, this is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Yeah. But that was it so that's the Patrick that we grew up with right that's the that's the kind of that's the version

you're taught in school yeah yeah the myth what about the snakes I've no idea is it like a euphemism for like

you know the way Taylor Swift has a load of songs about snakes it's definitely got to do with Taylor Swift Selena Gomez he's in his

reputation era yeah he was in his reputation era. Yeah. He was in his reputation era. He's like, are you ready for it? Bah. All the snakes are gone. Ireland, St. Patrick's Virgin. And they never really said, like, what was the actual problem of having all those snakes?

Yeah. Like, Australia has quite a lot of snakes. And they're still OK. They're still fine. Thinking about how the story is biblical is it meant to be like banishing the snake from the garden of Eden maybe

I think there's that there Ireland was so pagan and a lot of like a lot of like the stuff that like Christianity took on within Ireland was actually kind of based on a lot of pagan stuff. That's probably what you're going to do. But like I come from a part of Ireland.

It's the ancient center point of Ireland. The goddess Eiru is buried there, even though like, you know, goddesses aren't buried. But it's named after Ireland is named after that goddess. I grew up Catholic, but I grew up with a lot of like pagan-y stuff. So like St. Bridget Wells and St. Patrick Wells are like wells that are holy. But back in the day, when you were pagan, it was kind of like a healing well. It was a holy spring. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And sheen in the gigs and stuff. Have you heard of those?

I haven't even heard of those. All right. Well, I don't know how I can describe this in a not safe for work fashion, but she and Linda Giggs are like really rude statues. And you find it sometimes in Brittany and France, but it's on Cornwall and Ireland. And it's basically a lady pulling apart a very large part of her anatomy. Like the part she initially made. And she's kind of laughing. I don't know this at all.

Yeah. So it's quite like that's quite a pagan thing. And she's kind of laughing. Oh, I don't know this at all. Yeah, so it's quite like, that's quite a pagan-y thing. The idea of women and their body parts and stuff being part of life is quite pagan-y. Yeah. And of course Christianity gets rid of it. Oh, Catholicism really stamps that out. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Women are to blame. Yeah, exactly, exactly. Snakes, you know, the Garden of Eden. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly, yeah. So what I would like to do now that we've established that mythological version. Yes. Maddy, you have a picture there

which I'd love to share with Alison. Is it here again? Yes. Where to begin? And this is the earliest depiction of St. Patrick that we have. Wow. And I'd love you to have a look and describe him now

based on what you can see and what we've been told. Patrick is like the red halo guy. And he's gone up to this king. This king does not look happy. Patrick looks a bit like he's come out of a toilet and is not able to flush it because he's blaming someone else. You know what I mean? He's kind of like, it's not me. And he's got a staff and they're both not wearing shoes.

Patrick looks quite humble. And the king looks really really ticked off well you said yeah about the shoes yeah this is entirely relevant where is patrick's staff patrick patrick the absolute chancellor after poking the king he is he's oh my gosh through the um through the foot of your man. Yeah. So this is the earliest depiction of Patrick. And it's... Wow. He asks the king in this story

why he doesn't cry out when he puts the staff through his foot. Is this the king of Ireland? Of a region of Ireland? Is this a mythological fake king? Yeah, it's a mythological fake king. Okay. But it is Irish related because... Okay. So it's a mythological king okay but but it is irish related because okay it's so it's

a nondescript irish king because ireland had a lot of different kingdoms in different so it's it's representative of all of those and he asked the king why he didn't cry out when the staff went through his leg and the king said is because of his now new christian forbearance so he can suffer now because he's a Christian and the pain is irrelevant because, right? Doesn't this tell you? Oh my God. Doesn't this set the tone for Ireland

over the next X amount of centuries? Really, we're trying to sell it to people as well. Don't worry, you won't feel anything when you suffer. How about not suffering? Yes, there is another option that doesn't involve wood through the foot. Oh, my God. You know what I mean?

So it's like this was the thing. He had brought this idea of deliverance, I guess, in a way. Like, I know that's a bit more modern a concept, but he had delivered the Irish people in this depiction from ignorance, from their pagan beliefs, as you have said. Now, the reality is he hadn't at all. The conversion rate was not that quick in St. Patrick's time. And when was St. Patrick's time? So we're talking about the 4th century, and then the legend starts to come around in the 5th century.

And by that point, has there been more Christianisation? Yeah, yeah, yeah. By the 5th century, it's really starting to take off more popularly. In Patrick's lifetime, it's not as popular as we're led to. Christianity doesn't take hold as much as we're led to believe in the kind of myth making that he has. But one of the interesting things about Patrick in this depiction, and there's a really, really practical reason for this, is he's dressed in blue and not green at all. Green is not associated with him. It's kind of like the Coke thing later where Coke, you know, makes red that's not true either but that myth that comes up we have made patrick red because

the green was it suits us better to do so but in the early depictions blue is just one of the most easily accessible colors blue and red and so blue becomes his his color and if you think about it, the early flag of Ireland was blue. So it was blue and gold with the gold harp on. And so that blueness is really associated with Ireland and St. Patrick way prior to greenness. When did he turn green? I don't know exactly when he does. Yeah, I mean, definitely by the 19th century, he's green. When does the Irish flag turn green? The representation of greenness and Irishness comes in in the 17th century. You're looking at flags for battle. It's not a national flag at that particular time.

Green badges or pieces of ribbon were worn for St. Patrick's Day from 1680. Now, obviously, that doesn't take over as the national flag at that point, but certainly greenness and Irish Catholicism. Yeah, it's so, yeah. The Catholicism, I keep forgetting. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But also it's easy to forget now because we have so unburdened ourselves or certain generations have of that institution. And, you know, for some people of different generations, it was a useful in some ways institution. But for us, I don't want to speak for everybody of our general generation. It's very much been a break away from that, I think, that we've tried to cultivate. Again, don't want to speak for everybody, but, you know, most people. Yeah, I could speak for me.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I can only speak for me. Yeah. But St. Patrick is still a thing that I would like celebrate. Yeah. Because I look at it as a, because it is soft power of Ireland. Ireland's such a small country that it feels like that's too important a power to let go of.

He's a cultural export. Yeah, definitely. Speaking of which, there is drama in Ireland about who goes where on St. Patrick's Day. Yes. Can you film me on this? Because I'm not 100% keeping up with this. Together, we can probably paste it together. Well, you know the way Ireland doesn't have like a first-past-the-post voting system.

So like at the moment, we have two parties that were involved in a civil war against each other and would never be together, but now are very much together. Their policies are very similar but they have like rotating t-shocks which are like prime ministers that kind of they tag in and tag out with each other so there's kind of really kind of two leaders of the government and the top prize for any irish politician is to give the shamrocks to the american president and it's quite an important relationship between, like American presidents, if they're coming up for a re-election, they'll come to Ireland. Oh, they make such a big deal of the Irish heritage.

Such a big deal. I know like a second cousin of Joe Biden. You do? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I used to work with her. In Ireland, like? In Ireland. And she went to the White House. Did she?

Yeah, she's like, she's really in with Joe. Poor old Scotland got Trump, of course. Yeah. Yeah. It's such a, yeah. And like when Barack Obama came to Ireland, we named the petrol station. We did? No.

And there's a big, huge cutout of him and Michelle, I think. Yes, him and Michelle. Still there? Yeah, still there. Do they like serving the petrol? No. Are they like serving the petrol? Are they like welcoming you in? There's like a small museum dedicated to Barack Obama

and you can smell the gravy coming from the carvery below. Yeah, and the oil. It's just such a bizarre place. Where is it? Moneygall. Moneygall, yeah. So that for me is like

Ireland's relationship with America down to a T. So we do have this like strong, soft power. The other politicians, they go to like China now and everywhere to establish relationships. And I think we must be like one of the only countries with like a worldwide recognized special day. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I can't think of any others really.

Shall we see who real Patrick was then? Yes. So we know what the myth is and we know what's going on there. But these are the facts that we have. So he is 4th century, as I mentioned before. He is a Roman citizen on the west coast of Britain. He has no connection to Ireland whatsoever.

When you say, sorry to interrupt you, when you say a Roman citizen, do you mean that he is a Briton living under Roman rule or that he is a Roman? No, he's a Briton living under Roman rule. Okay, cool.

So he's a citizen of the Roman Empire, let's say. Yes, yeah. Whether he likes it or not. And apparently he did like it. Okay. What we know of him, he's quite happy to be Romano-British,

let's say. There is discussion as to whether or not he is from Wales. We readily accept, I think, that he was Welsh. I think it's more palatable to the Irish. Because there's a Celtic thing there. A Celtic thing, yeah. Right, that's true, actually. Yeah, I never thought it was like that.

And it's likely he was, but we can say West Coast definitely. We're not sure about the Welsh thing, but we can see there is reason to believe that he could have been. If they said Liverpudley, I think the Irish would like it too. That'd be fine. Okay, so there is an idea that his name isn't St. Patrick. It will not surprise you that he did not grow up called St. Patrick. That wasn't the thing. His name, we think, although there's debate about this,

was Maewyn Suckett. Maewyn Suckett. Yeah. But here's the thing to go against that, right? His dad, and he tells us this himself, his dad was called Calpurnius. Calpurnius. Yeah. And his grandfather was called Potius. Potius Suckett. Potius Suckett. Maewyn Suckett sounds like something you would say to someone to go away. Maewyn Sucket sounds like something you would say to someone to go away Maewyn Sucket yeah yeah so what the theory is that Maewyn Sucket

is so Welsh that it doesn't make sense with the names Calpurnius and Poteus because they're Roman names because they're far too Roman

Roman so Romian yeah and then so the theory is it doesn't make sense that those two people or that line of, will call their child Maewyn.

I don't know enough about this period in time to comment on naming rituals, but that's the doubt over the fact that he might not have been Welsh. He is first called Maewyn Succat by Saint Fíoch, who's a bishop of Leinster, in 520. So we're into the 6th century there. So at least... A couple of hundred years later. Yeah, a few generations after he's been alive. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's where that name comes from.

Did you see how quickly I did maths there? And then thought I'd say generations. Your 4th or 3rd or 2nd. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 200 years. And his dad was a clergyman. Rome had adopted Christianity in the 4th century. So he's very much born into this idea of Roman Christianity.

And priests were not taking vows of chastity, so they had wives. So this is how there is a line. So they are legitimate priests, but they were allowed to have children. Are there people now who claim that they're descendants of Patrick? Not that I'm aware of. There'll be people somewhere, surely.

Yeah, I guess. That would be a great grift. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or like, yeah, where's the Who Do You Think You Are episode on that? Who Do You Think You Are producers? Get Alison Spittel on and praise her and get back to St. Patrick.

That's all. We'll do that one. But he was a very privileged man, as I mentioned before, or child and later man. He was born to a family who had an estate. They had really gained an awful lot from this Roman influence in Britain. He was educated in Latin family who had an estate. They had really gained an awful lot from this

Roman influence in Britain. He was educated in Latin, one of the ways that we know he definitely was of an upper rank and could read and write. We know this. We have documents that he has, this figure has written. And yeah, then as we say, that's his background. Fast forward, he gets kidnapped by pirates and he's brought by a farmer, purchased by a farmer in Mayo, probably we think. So Mayo's on the west coast of Ireland. And that's where he's brought by a farmer purchased by a farmer in mayo probably we think so mayo's on the west coast of ireland and that's where he's there with his sheep that he did not bring himself wow yeah yeah so that's the that's the kind of that's the gig between what we think we know and what the scholars around saint patrick have have found out it then goes on to talk a little

bit about this kind of colonial idea, because Rome didn't come to Ireland, the empire never came to, I mean, Roman Catholicism did, but the Roman Empire never came to Ireland. So we don't have never, there was trade, but they didn't do what they did in Britain. So we don't have that infrastructure, that Roman infrastructure in Ireland. So when Patrick arrives arrives it's described as a heathen savage land of all these different beliefs yeah I'm really interested in the fact that he he comes to Ireland as a slave who's been kidnapped because that to me feels like absolute Christian propaganda the idea of someone being humbled and coming from the lowliest origins in that society,

that's a very Jesus-esque thing to do. I don't know if I buy that as real. He tells us it's true. Oh, well then. He will be inventing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. Like he's inventing, is he inventing his own sainthood slightly?

Yeah. As the kind of time wears on and he's in a position to to do that but he Ireland at this time is full of about and this is no precise figure but about 100 different factions there could be up to 100 kings they there's a lot of warring going on for land and this is why it's kind of described as savage. But at the same time, there's this hugely rich culture of belief systems, of pagan belief systems, of Druidism, of this Celtic stronghold that's still in Ireland that's being eroded in Britain more generally because of the Roman Empire. Yeah, I mean, think of like Boudicca's uprising and things in Britain. There are still regional tribes that are fighting against the Romans and resisting.

Yes. And that continue to fighting against the Romans and resisting. Yes. And that continue to exist after the Romans have left. And, you know, there's warring tribes in England and warring kingdoms well into the medieval period as well as there surely is in Ireland. Yes. And in Ireland, they're less disruptive, as I said. So, like, they can have that kind of stronghold there

to be like like let's settle we know what this is we're confident in this Celticism this Druidism this Paganism and variations of that by the way

there wasn't one just thing it was a it was a real melting pot of beliefs but Patrick obviously is like no we need to streamline this

yeah and we're gonna we're gonna sort it out and you're gonna believe in one and we'll keep all the things that you like but we'll just make it Christian yeah yeah yeah and it's going to be

now very beneficial to certain higher echelons of society where financially we will gain from this because we've commodified it essentially we've commodified that belief system and what was potentially a bit more democratic in its belief system becomes layered and tiered. Well, it's about controlling access to God, really, isn't it? That you have to go to church.

What you hear in church is in Latin, a language you can't read, that you don't understand, that you have to have a priest. Yes. In order to commune with God in a way that the pagans don't so it's interesting to me about the about bridget and patrick that the way that they explain their christianity is through things in the landscape and i wonder if that's a hangover from paganism and having that relationship with the land and that spirituality that is co-opted by the christians who are taking that relationship between ordinary folk and the land away,

but they're also using it to explain it because I suppose those are the terms people would understand it in as well. Yeah, I think the whole idea of holy water to me feels like a pagan hangover. Yeah, it must be. It must be. My mum will no longer go to church on a Sunday,

but she does have a bottle of holy water. And it's more of a kind of like emergency bottle of death oil. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just to have in case of emergency. And it's just, and that to me feels very pagan. It feels very like, it feels like crystals. Like my generation, I've left Catholicism behind,

but I get crystals for my birthday or people put crystals under a moon. Wendy's Small Frosty is the ultimate summer refreshment. And not because it's cool and creamy and made with fresh Canadian dairy. It's also refreshingly cheap. Just 99 cents until July 14th. It's a treat for you and your wallet. Catherine of Aragon. Anne Boleyn.

Jane Seymour. Anne of Cleves. Catherine Howard. Catherine Parr. Six wives, six lives. I'm Professor Susanna Lipscomb, and this month on Not Just the Tudors, I'm joined by a host of experts to tell the stories of the six queens of Henry VIII, who shaped and changed England forever. Subscribe to and follow Not Just the Tudors from History Hit, wherever you get your podcasts. So he did his little stint in Mayo for seven years and he then went back to Britain, got back to Britain,

where he trained properly to become a priest because he was constantly hearing the word of God and he was constantly hearing what he should be doing. And when he was trained and when he was training in Britain, we don't know where, we don't know how long it took. Yeah. But he's back at home. He was constantly hearing the voice of Ireland in his head saying, come back and civilise us.

We don't know what we're doing with ourselves. Tame us, Patrick. Put us in our place. Yes. This has taken a turn. So off he goes back to Ireland to put us in our place

and he's known as the holy boy the holy boy now he says that about himself though I'm the holy hello I'm the holy boy

and I'm here to sort this out that is giving me the ick it's creepy right yeah yeah yeah no absolutely not and he sends a letter that says

or he gets a letter in his dreams that says the Irish need you. Oh my, oh my. Yeah. And he's saying this himself now. So, you know, like he's got a bit of a complex. That's the word.

Thank you, Alison. Yeah. The savor complex. Yeah. Yeah. So he's coming back to sort us out. And was he like, there's loads of churches that claim that like Patrick, there's a lot of it's quite it's quite franchised patrick was like subway sandwiches there's a lot of him about there's a load of church there's one

by my parents house in ireland oh wow i used to wander up there there was one day when i was about no i was older i was probably like 10 wandered up the hills on my own again in the middle of nowhere now this is so it's you know bleak times but beautiful but bleak and went up to the ruins of what is supposedly St. Patrick's Church couldn't have been time wise it doesn't make sense but that's what it supposedly is and was rooting through the ruins and when I looked up thought I saw about I don't know, maybe 20 red eyes underneath the trees that were around. Legged at home, nearly swore, legged at home. And then I was like, Mom, I think I just saw loads of like devils or something.

She was like, or they could have been the goats that live in that field. I was like, they were the goats. They were definitely the goats. Yeah, yeah. That makes more sense. But yeah, there's those churches everywhere. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Big time. There was a, I think it might have been a yeah big time there was a i think it might have been a protestant church it was a ruin in my village and there was a grave with like four big fists coming out of each corner i think it might have been someone that was like a unionist or something i presume with the fists but i thought when i was a kid and i don't know why i thought this but i thought it was muhammad Ali's grave he wasn't dead at the time I don't feel like that but I was like

it's obviously a boxer and it must be Muhammad Ali because that's the only bundle I can think of wait what county are you from Westmead

I thought Muhammad Ali was buried in Westmead and before he even died they've just prepped that grave now because he's asked to be laid to rest in Westmead

he wants to be laid right in the middle of Ireland. Well, yeah. Oh, yeah, you're from the heart of it. The heart of it. Wait, isn't Bridget supposed to be from around there? Kildare. But there's the same Bridget's Well near where I live

and the goddess Eru is buried like one minute away from my village. But yeah, yeah, it's quite a little bit pagan-y. Shall we hear some words from Patrick himself? Oh, yeah. As long as he's not calling himself the holy boy. I'm a holy boy. It's me, Patrick, a.k.a. holy boy, a.k.a. patron saint of Ireland.

It's like his rapper name. Yeah, exactly. That's it. Right. Here we go. Okay. This is from Confessions of St. Patrick. It is translated from Latin, obviously, because he didn't want the likes of us to be able to read it. Right. Here we go. Okay. This is from Confessions of St. Patrick.

It is translated from Latin, obviously, because he didn't want the likes of us to be able to read it. Of course. So it says, my name is Patrick. I am a sinner, a simple country person. God love him. Is this me? Wait, don't get too involved just yet. And the least of all believers.

So he's the least of them all. He's very lowly, very humble. I am looked down upon by Manny. My father was called Porneus. He was a deacon. His father was Potius, a priest. His home was near there, and that is where I was taken prisoner. I was about 16 at the time. At that time, I did not know the true God. Now, just just to interject there some accounts say he was already christian because his father was already a deacon and then other accounts including his own and he contradicts himself at times other accounts say i had no faith no christian faith and then i got it because he is so you know there's myth building, yeah. He's making his own kind of thing.

I was taken into captivity in Ireland along with thousands of others. We deserved this because we had gone away from God. Back to the suffering. Uh-oh. Yeah, I think that. Are we going to be rounded up?

I think we, yeah, yeah, yeah. What, are the pirates going, like, do you believe in God? Yeah, you. Get in. Yeah, yeah. Thousands of you. And did not Yeah, yeah. Thousands of you. And did not keep his commandments.

Okay, so he is saying the commandments were there, but. We would not listen to our priests who advised us about how we could be saved. The Lord brought his strong anger upon us and scattered us among many nations, even to the ends of the earth. It was among foreigners that it was seen how little I was. I don't think he means diminutive. I mean, he's not like fully formed because he's not Christian. So he's on this, I mean, that's a very short excerpt there from what is a relatively long tract about himself.

And he's making himself seem as lowly as possible, basically. As humble. As humble. As humble. Yeah. Yeah. It's a little bit like a. Why is he doing that? I think it's a little bit like a feminist hipster.

Right. That's kind of like this kind of going, I actually read all of this kind of. Yeah. Ladies, let me explain to you. Yeah. How you can be liberated. I also used to be a little bit shit like you. Yes. And now I look at me now it's

interesting at the end there at the end he says what was the bit about it was among foreigners that i discovered how little i am and i wonder if that's a sort of persisting thing in irish culture not to discover how little you are obviously um but in terms of that when we've talked already about migration to other parts of the world and like there's something about irish culture becomes very sort of crystallized and celebrated especially in places where irish people have migrated to i'm thinking particularly in america and that there's so much fascination with and celebration of that culture. And almost on a scale that you, I mean, obviously St. Patrick's Day is huge in Ireland,

but it's also huge in other parts of the world, maybe more so in America. And I wonder, yeah, if there's just something about the Irish culture and Patrick here kind of the beginning of it in some way that you have to go somewhere different and be the other in order to appreciate what you have and then it becomes like your thing even more you make a really good point there because when i lived in ireland i wouldn't cross the road to watch an irish band i would just be

like they're there that's fine yes now i live in london and not only do i watch irish bands i buy their merch i want them to do well you know so i think you are right there is a kind of thing of having to leave your country like for instance they call it irish street food and it's just come to london yes so basically i'm trying to think what that's gonna be what i guess yeah i'm not gonna say it i'm not it's okay we're with two Irish people and we've given you permission we've given you full permission I promise is it potato based?

so there's an element of the potatoes that's okay yeah you haven't don't worry no no no but no tell them what it is

tell them what we're exporting now so Irish street food is basically foods foods that you would get in petrol stations in Ireland oh my god so chicken fillet rolls

so that's a French baguette cut open with sliced chicken fillet, breaded chicken fillet. Is that a big Irish thing? Breaded chicken and rolls. Yeah. Yeah. Big thing. Curry chips,

but it has to be a specific curry sauce. Oh, that's one of them, right? Yes. The one out of the packet. Yeah. The one out of the packet.

It's horrible. What else do we have in Ireland? You get a little mini cardboard book cut out Obama and Michelle. I would love that. If I was doing an Irish market street food thing, I think I would call it Obama's and put a little apostrophe. Obama's street food. It would be the stuff that you would get in a petrol station. And then you get sued by the actual Obama. Absolutely.

But TikTokers, they're going mad for it now at the moment. There's loads of places popping up where they're doing Irish food. And charging a fortune for it. It's actually just a baguette that people have when they're hungover in Ireland. Do you like them? I don't like them. No, I never liked them. They're not my gig.

Never liked them. Breakfast Roll is another one where they put a whole fried breakfast into a baguette we've done so much with baguettes we really have

not our native food no we didn't know what to do with them we're like Vietnam you know you get given baguettes and you're like

I'm making it my thing I don't know what this is for so I'm just sticking out sausage that's like Irish ban meat once he arrives he does not eat a chicken breakfast roll.

He moves around preaching as you would do. And he talks about the gospel. He converts hundreds of people. Hundreds of people isn't that many. So this is what I'm saying. You know, we're not talking an entire nation being converted at the same. I mean, realistically, it's probably thousands of people. If you were to watch the spread of where he goes,

because we have an idea of where he traveled. But this is the very beginning of Christianity in the fourth century. You can only ask someone to the map. The Roman Empire is still, obviously, becoming Christianized itself, but they're still present in Britain, the Romans. This is early.

Give them a break. Yeah, yeah. Hundreds isn't bad. This is like a left field question. I just want to ask, when did St. Patrick become canonized? When did he decide that he was a saint? And to become a saint,

you also have to have miracles. We know about the snakes. That's probably the one that we know about. You'd think that would be enough. That's quite impressive. No, you need three. Okay, go on, go on. There's only a third of the way there.

I did not know these, so I'm going to read them to make sure i'm getting them right oh wow it is recorded that patrick resurrected 33 dead people okay that's better than the snakes wow it is right that's an army and this is kind of crucial to the storytelling in one of the cases it was a daughter of the king two daughters rather of the king of dublin who had died and he said he would bring that daughter back, those daughters back to life. But he said, I'll only bring them back if you, the king, gets baptized into Christianity. Wow.

Now, that's not a red flag. Wow. Yeah. I don't know what is. Do you like your kids? Wow. That's a creepy sentence. Anyway, the king.

I love the way you're judging me, but not Patrick. Like, you know, he's the one that did that. The king kept his word anyway, and the king was baptized. But it's, you know, it's all about this, like, I'm going to Christianize this and the Christianizing kings as well, you know. It's a bargain. Yeah, I'm making those inroads into power. It's like when Scientology get a big celeb and they're like, yes.

This one, I have a feeling you're going to like this one. I'll read this as it is. No, wait, is it higher or lower than The Snakes and The Resurrection? I think it's going to appeal to a different audience. I don't think we can compare them. Okay. One day, a thief stole a goat that had belonged to Patrick.

Now look, I don't know where he got the goat from. Don't ask me details about that. Well, he's a shepherd. He's already down with the sheep. I don't know. But it's goat, not a sheep. Okay. And that's important.

I mean, is there that much difference in terms of administering care? You'll see in a minute. Oh. Sorry, sorry, I'll be quiet. Somebody steals the goat. They eat the goat. Oh no. Because, you know, hungry.

Yeah. Patrick finds who this person is. How does. Because, you know, hungry. Yeah. Patrick finds who this person is. How does he find, how do you think he might find them? I'll tell you. He doesn't resurrect the goat inside the person, does he? Actually, I don't know the ins and outs,

but either way, he hears the bleating of the goat from the stomach of the man. No. Yes. And he goes and he says, right, this is not, I'm going to perform a miracle to always mark you as having stolen this goat. And so a beard suddenly appears on the man's face, which is where they say the term goatee comes from.

Drop it. No. Done. It's done. Oh my. There is nothing better than that. Oh my. Yeah.

So goatee. I mean, I'm a female. It's probably made up. St. Patrick invented the goatee i mean i'm a female that's probably made up saint patrick invented the goatee told you he was a hipster wow that's beautiful that's that's saint patrick's but there's not only three miracles if you were to go back and do some googling he has he's with the three he's qualified oh he's qualified listen this is why he got assigned to limbo because he had so many miracles like He's like, we need to give him a territory of his own. With his goatee.

Yeah, yeah. Oh my God. And isn't it a thing as well that we never did have snakes? We never had them. We never had them. They were never in Ireland. Oh, come on, you must talk like adders or something. No.

Isn't it so? No, no snakes. There is no evidence that there were ever any snakes in Ireland. So that's what you were saying earlier, though, about this kind of biblical thing. It's not a real thing. Yeah, I mean, I'm still getting my head around the fact that there are any snakes in Ireland. So that's what you were saying earlier though about this kind of biblical thing. It's not a real thing. Yeah, I mean that's, I'm still getting my head around the fact that there are no snakes in Ireland. That's bizarre. I think there are quite a few native snakes in Britain. Yeah, which always

surprises me because I'm just like, where are they? Yeah. Have you ever seen a snake? I've seen an adder or a grass snake or something at least once. Stop. Yeah, well it's in the wilderness of Britain. It's when you have dogs, walking with dogs and you're constantly going drop it, drop it to everything.

I also, this is so random, I saw the chrysalis of a death watch moth, is that what they're called? You know from the film poster, Silence of the Lambs? Yeah. I saw one of the worst thing I've ever seen on the planet, of anything I've ever seen, horrend planet. Anything I've ever seen. Horrendous. If you listen to this, pause and Google it because truly a horror.

Yeah, I was going to ask you. Massive, massive, massive. So, okay, so you've done the no snakes. So there are other, presumably other myths about St. Patrick that we need to bust because it seems to me that his story is full of a lot of self-important inventions, maybe? Alison mentioned at the top of the episode about the shamrock.

The shamrock is a much later addition to the story. It's used just allegorically. It's not an actual part that he tells us about because he never did it. That's amazing. So we know there was no snakes, no shamrock. Wow. He didn't wear green. Wow.

So I don't know what you're doing today. Oh, I feel like such a fool. So embarrassing. Such a fool. Most of them wore blue. Which actually, mind you, I like green and blue are my favourite colours. I'm good, I'm covered. You're a true Irishman.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he instantly recognises an important figure. It was later, around the 7th century, where there was a movement to make him the patron saint of Ireland. And now he's regarded as such. Because he was the patron saint of Ireland and he was the patron saint of limbo. Until the Pope was like, that don't exist anymore. So he's been downgraded.

He's the patron saint of Ireland and a few other things. But doesn't that make sense? Yeah. That Ireland, the patron saint of Ireland would be linked to limbo. Of all things. Talking back to the make sense? Yeah. That Ireland, that Patron of Ireland would be linked to limbo of all things. Talking back to the suffering and the penance. We love it. But I mean, being patron

of limbo, that seems like a big responsibility. Also, not a desirable job. No. But like it's like being boring. Yeah, and a bit miserable. But a bit like being God in limbo. Do you know what I mean? Like, if God's heaven and the devil's hell, Patrick's over limbo.

That's like, he's one of the three. Quite a big deal. Good for him. But you wouldn't be thrilled on a Monday morning. On a Monday morning in limbo. Any day in limbo is probably not great. You wouldn't be thrilled to go to work. No, no.

It's a weird job. Yeah. Does that mean he gets stuck in limbo all his life then, if he has to oversee it? He can't work remotely. I imagine if you work in limbo, it's like being the night manager in a hotel yeah football on a small yeah yeah yeah god it's making me anxious i don't like it it's too it's too unpleasant so that's kind of the the relationship with patrick i mean we've talked

about st patrick's day at the start like what how we experienced st patrick's day as kids and it's kind of it's fun but it's not marketed it's not marketable for us as locals but in America, like it's huge I think Chicago dyes the river green like it's huge like the New York parade is bigger than any parade in the world It's absolutely huge

Chicago is a big thing there's also like colleges they have to close down some campuses and colleges, I can't remember where in America because of St. Patrick's Day, because it's such a crazy day where people let go and they drink like Mike's hard lemonade. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And go mad.

Yeah, it's just, it's become, I don't know, it's become such a thing of Irishness that is originally not Irish. And I mean that in so many different ways. St. Patrick is not Irish, technically. The St. Patrick's Day parade is not an Irish invention. That's an American invention coming back to Ireland. Yeah, that's coming back. That was an export because of emigration. Yeah. And when did that come back to Ireland? In the way that like, when did Ireland go, right, we're gonna, we're getting on board with this parade thing

well from what I recall the first St Patrick's Day parade is military linked was in America and was celebrating the Irish in America there and it was just a way for people to celebrate home and to remember home but we didn't start doing it until the 20th century so like much later it's quite a lot later. Now, the first parades are localised. They're small. They're for groups of people that know one another. It's kind of like getting together a street party kind of a thing.

That's what they looked like. Whereas now, obviously, it's a huge national and international thing, particularly in America. Do you get the impression sometimes that there's an idea of almost, I don't want to say taking the piss because it's not taking the piss, sometimes that there's an idea of almost I don't want to say taking the piss because it's not

taking the piss but like undercutting by turning up in our St. Patrick's Day parades where we go here's a tractor here's a man that has

a donkey and a dog on the back of the donkey and you're just walking in parade and it like we know what we're doing it's not foolishness

it's undercutting it in a real Irish kind of way we're not trying to turn the rivers green we're trying to have a laugh yeah we're in on the joke we're to turn the rivers green. We're trying to have a laugh. Yeah, we're in on the joke.

We're in on the joke. Yeah, I think that that's it, definitely. It's the kind of thing of like, are we performing Irishness to America when we do stuff with St. Patrick's Day? I do feel like as an Irish person, sometimes I do perform Irishness to whether it be America or English people.

My dad's English. And I have such a like weird relationship between England and Ireland. Like even when you were like, oh, can I guess? And then you were like, I don't know if I can. In the back of my head,

I was like, say it. And it's fine. You know what I mean? It's not even, March makes you think about being Irish and what it is to be Irish. And we've such a long complicated relationship with ourselves it's so interesting and St Patrick's Day brings that out brings it

all out and it's a real celebration but also thinking of it in that way of it's for people who are not in Ireland who are Irish actually for me I don't know about you Alison but like I feel so much more Irish when I'm not in Ireland because it's almost obviously it's the default in Ireland but actually there's so much more pride involved and there's so much more want for Irishness when you're not in Ireland. As Patrick says. As Patrick says, yeah.

But it does link, right? Tell me this, if people want to go and celebrate St. Patrick's Day today what would you recommend they go and do? Oh, wow. What did you think I was going to ask? I thought you were going to ask me what events we're on.

I was like, I don't know. I want a full catalogue of events in everyone's area, around the world. Go. Well, I know that there's St. Patrick's Day celebrations in Trafalgar Square. And that always makes me kind of like happy that we still have that amount of

soft power. But if you want to celebrate St. Patrick's Day, what would you do? I want the shamrocks back. I haven't had those for years. Obviously some Irish street food has to be on the path. Chicken fillet rolls. Chicken fillet rolls. Some curry chips, I think. Watch an Irish film. I think

like The Commitments is good or The Van or that's what I do I do watch Irish stuff that's a good idea listen to Sinead O'Connor yeah

like oh she's the real patron of Ireland to me yeah yeah yeah like I love her but with like if you look at like how small Ireland is

the actual kind of like cultural footprint we have is massive I think that's real power we never had like an empire or anything like that we don't have like i go to such beautiful cities around the world you're looking at stuff and it's all gold and gilded and then you're like this is incredible and then you think of it in the historical context and there's there's a part of me of ireland where i'm like we don't have that yeah and it feels good but that's why I had to

move out of Ireland as well but I don't live there now yeah Alison just as a way out how are you feeling about St Patrick now that we know what we were taught and what we learned and what we've discovered here today about the kind of differences between that reality and and or invented reality because he may have invented some of that reality as well totally I'm a big so I'm a big lapsed Catholic but I'm culturally like Catholic if someone brought up a snake I'd be like oh just put you know put it

and so Bridget is still my favourite always was it's kind of confirmed to me that Patrick's always been a bit milk toast there's no actual you know apart from the snakes thing there's no actual drama know apart from the snakes thing there's no actual drama of patrick he's not giving yeah he's he's the ed sheeran of snakes for me which is like really big name recognition done some good things but i'm just like i just find other people a bit more interesting

that are smaller it's definitely more interesting than saint patrick yeah without a shadow of a doubt without a shadow of a doubt yeah he's shadow of a doubt. Yeah. She's the one. Yeah. Oh, do you know what I would recommend actually if you want to celebrate Ireland? Come see me on tour. Yes. Alison, where can they see you? I have a show called Soup.

It's going to be in Soho Theatre the week after St. Patrick's Day. I'm on tour in all around Britain. So come along, see me. I'm in Glasgow, Edinburgh, Bath. Oh, a place called Leek. Are you from Leek? I'm from Leek.

You're not from Leek. Are you actually? This is so weird. Oh my gosh. What? Well, it's not selling well. Yeah, Maddy, get onto your family. I beg you, put the word out.

It's about six people in Leek. I have to take like two trains and a bus to get to Leek Somebody in Leek buy Alison's tickets with a love card I'm financially like ruining myself by going to Leek It's not It's definitely a laugh maker Oh my gosh

Well not anymore, Maddie to the rescue I'm crying Oh god Well listen, we shall leave it there. Alison, thank you so much for coming and chatting to us about St. Patrick. And yeah, book your tickets to go and see Alison as your St. Patrick's Day gift to yourself. Why not? Absolutely.

Especially if you live in Leek. Come on, guys. Oh, big time Leek. Leek is going to be the spot now. Everyone's going to be going to Leek. No one has ever said Leek this much on a podcast. Oh, my God. Is it spelt like a vegetable?

Yeah. I'm excited. Yeah, it'll be good fun. It'll be good fun. It's a the podcast I know I know oh my god is it spelt like a vegetable yeah I'm excited yeah it'll be good fun it'll be good fun it's a pretty town yeah okay oh is it yeah lots of fancy shops maybe I should go

cafes what's the best because every town I go to I look up historical things about it because I love history like what's the one thing about leak

William Morris lived there for a while wow there you go oh my gosh okay that's cool right we're going to keep talking about

William Morris and other bits and pieces but thank you so much for listening to After Dark follow us and leave us a review because it helps other people

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