After Dark: Myths, Misdeeds & the Paranormal - The Doctor Who Shocked Victorian Britain

Episode Date: May 21, 2026

What lurks behind the door of Dr. Kahn's Grand Anatomical Museum in Victorian London?Step inside and find out what shocked the public (and medical establishment) of the 19th century Britain so much, that it was eventually forced to close.To take you there today, Anthony is joined by guest co-host Cat Irving, Human Remains Conservator at Surgeons’ Hall in Edinburgh.Edited by Anna Brant and Tim Arstall. Produced by Stuart Beckwith. Senior Producer is Freddy Chick.Sign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries, with a new release every week and ad-free podcasts. Sign up at https://www.historyhit.com/subscribe.  You can take part in our listener survey here.All music from Epidemic Sounds. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Rotting flesh, blackened limbs, genitals ravaged by disease. Behind a discreet doorway on Victorian London's Oxford Street, visitors stepped into a world of wax. Glass cases revealed bodies frozen in decay, skin blistered, eyes hollow, limbs contorted by disease. But it would all end in scandal for Dr. Khan and his museum. But was this a place of medicine? or of theatre, a moral lesson or an attraction built on fear and shame.

As respectable gentlemen filed past these grotesque displays, they're forced to confront not only the fragility of the body, but the uneasy question, is this education or exploitation? After Dark, listeners and viewers, we are going to take you right to the heart of 315, Oxford Street. It's the middle of the 19th century. You're going to be immersed in this bizarre, wonderful, questionable world of Dr. Kahn's anatomical museum. But it is so bizarre, so strange, so horrifying to some extent, that I am not doing this alone. And because Maddie is currently collecting samples in the Andes samples of what nobody knows, I have decided that the only person

to help me through this bizarre world of anatomy is, of course, Kat Irving, human remains conservator at Surgeons Hall in Edinburgh. Kat, you are my guest co-host on After Dark for the next few weeks. Hello, it's wonderful to be here. I feel like I've gone through the looking glass. Yes, now you're part of the machine. Listen, if you're listening or watching these episodes on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts, get cozy, turn the volume up on your speakers or on your earphones, whatever it is,

because these are really Kat's histories are immersive. We are going to be going to some very strange corners of the past. And this is why when I knew that we were looking for guest co-hosts, while Maddie was off, Cat was top of my list. I was like, we need to have Cat in. Because what we're about to discuss and what we have been discussing with Kat, sure, the previous episodes, you can go back and look at those. It will give you a taste of what is to come.

And this particular history is bizarre in the best way possible. Now, before we go into that particular anatomical site in the middle of the 19th century, I'm going to bring us right up to date because I visited Kat in her office in Edinburgh. I've been to a lot of offices. This one is the most unique, I think I can confidently say, that I have ever been to. And so fitting as well, it was like, of course this is. And I couldn't take a picture in there because of the nature of what's in there, but I remember taking a picture of you at the door going, wow, this is such a location that

Nobody really gets to see. So for the listeners, give us a description of what your office in Edinburgh looks like. Well, it's a vaulted basement. It is. So, you know, lots and lots of arches. If you're taller than me, you have to duck at a number of places. And this is where we keep our human remains that are not on display. And so there are shelves upon shelves which contain human remains. And then I have a little desk in the corner. I have two laboratories, which are somewhat dated now. and there I do my work. It looks a bit like you might expect something in a Frankenstein lab, but that is not what I am doing down there. No, no, I can confirm she is not sewing together pieces of random bodies, which is great for everybody involved. I remember at one point,

because there's different little compartments to what is the sweep of your office, and at one point, I remember thinking to myself, we were in the middle compartment. We had two chairs out, and we were chatting away about history and about books and about all this kind of thing, just industry stuff. And watching over us in the background were, what is it, what is it, eight skeletons or something that were just overviewing our conversation. I was like, this does not happen in the history head offices on a daily basis.

It is an experience. But I'm very glad that I got that experience. And if I, you know, I do a lot of public talks. And if I have to practice talk, I give it for the skeletons. So they're my first audience. Do you actually? I do. Stop it. Yeah.

I'm remembering them all now because they're all. all different heights and sizes and, you know, the plethora of humanity there before you. And they are such a, there's such a ready audience. Like, it makes sense that you would do that, actually. Yeah, they're very appreciative. Yeah, I'm sure they are silent, but they're taking it all in as they would. Now, listen, we are going from your anatomical situation to Dr. Khan's Grand Anatomical Museum. We are, as I said, in the middle of the 19th century.

We're going to go straight in and then we'll pull back a little bit and give some context. If you and I were walking down Oxford Street, we came to number 315, And we go in through this door. What is a typical visit like to this particular anatomical museum? Well, there are lots of things that you can see there. You will see, you know, like if you come to Sojourns Hall, you will see body parts that have been preserved in jars and fluids. You're also going to see those at Dr. Kans.

He's got a number of those kind of jars showing human remains with lots and lots of different conditions. You're also going to see models, beautiful wax models, which will show the body at different stages of dissection, show some horrible diseases. You're also going to see things that you might not expect. So from 1857, he has what's called a Hector-Delf, and that's actually a living person.

Oh, I didn't realize it was a living person. So there is a crossover with the kind of freak show that, you know, I know that you've talked about in the past and actor dark. Let's linger on that for a second, because I had heard that there was a Hedreder Delph, and we'll talk about what that means in just a second. but I didn't realize there was living people. That seems to be the only living person that he has.

I looked this up, this particular, and there are drawings of this particular heterodev that you can see online, and I was really interested in what the breakdown of the language was in terms of heterodalph, and it basically means an opposite brother, an opposite man. Yeah, it's effectively heterosexual, you know, different.

And then Delph, sibling, brother. Greek words. If you could describe what this, I did not realize this person was alive. If you could describe what the Hedredelth was, so if we are seeing this person, this poor boy, actually, what would we, what condition was he living with? He has, it seems to be a form of conjoint twinism or supernumerary limbs. Again, we're not certain. So, you know, he has a young male body and then coming out of just below his. his diaphragm, is another lower torso and then another pair of limbs smaller than the, shall we say,

the main lower body. So he has these extra legs. And you may not know the answer to this because it might not survive in the archival material. Do we know if he had use of those extra limbs or was it an appendage that was not used? This is a really interesting question. We don't get so much of a description of that. But from similar conditions that I've read about, there is some use. So at Surgeon's Hall, we have an example of a supernumerary limb, a third leg, as it were, that was removed from a man in his 50s. And it's a really sad story. You know, effectively, his parents thought this was a punishment from God. So it was only after they died that he was able to get this leg removed. And he'd been kept hidden away so that people wouldn't see the shame until this

point. But there's a very interesting report from the doctors who first examined him. And as well as the extra leg, he also has an extra penis. I knew you were going there. Sorry. Somehow I just knew it was going to go there. And the doctor's right that it will respond at the same time as the first one, but it doesn't produce. Whoa. Yeah.

Okay. That is something we have never heard on after talking. Oh, God. Right. It's such a sad story. It is. It is. Really, really want to just bring home that, you know, these are people.

And that's the thing that, you know, through collections like ours, you get these insights into what people's lives must have been like and it must have been so hard. And here's the thing actually to take from that in one sense. It's very easy to get caught up in the graphicness of the anatomy part of it, which, you know, you're anatomist, that's fine. But it's also that thing. There was a secret around this man's life and he couldn't deal with it until his parents died. That's heartbreaking. It really, really is. That he's hidden away.

Yeah. So that's the heterodealth that we have. or as it was termed at the time, that we have at this particular anatomical museum. But we also have the Venus model. Now, this is intriguing. This was one of the stars of the show, right? Not a real person, though, in this case. No, this is a wax model.

And this was based on a style of wax model that was produced first in Italy in the 18th century. So the first model was a man called Clemente Sussini. He works in Florence. And you can still see Clementius Sucini's models. There are some in Las Becola in Florence, in Vienna. There's even one of his anatomical venuses in the Science Museum in London. So, you know, they're still about. But effectively what you have is a beautiful woman.

And she's reclining. A lot of these models have jewels around the necks, sort of pearls or beads. They have very beautiful hair. Sometimes it's braided over their shoulder. And they're relaxing on a cushion. And they're laid back. The head is reclined. Their lips are slightly parted.

It looks almost orgasmic. Sure, sure, yeah. But then she has a wax panel on the front of her body that you can remove. And then you can look at her internal organs. And you can often take those internal organs out, you know, made of wax right down to teeny tiny wax fetus, which is, you know, there in her uterus, which is absolutely no external sign of. Right. So these are, they're beautiful. They're very idealized anatomy.

God, even the anatomy is idealised. Absolutely. You know, this does not look like how you see the anatomy in a dissecting room. If you're actually opening some. So, you know, it's not anatomy as you see it in real life. It's a map to what you will see. But a very sexualized map. Yeah, I was going to say, one of the things that I don't think I fully appreciated with this

is that actually there's a cover for the internals that if you approach this at first, there can be a top over the stomach, I'm guessing. And often, you know, if you see one of these models in a museum, that will be laying to one side. You'll see that. It will be open. It will be open. You don't have been taken off because otherwise it's, you know, it's just a woman who looks like she's just had sex lying there on a table. If you have that covered over.

The point is to see those wax organs inside. Those idealised wax organs. Absolutely. And what is in the back of my mind, and maybe I'm drawing false comparisons here, but it's probably just worth flagging it as you're talking about these. wax figures of women, idealised women in these semi-sexual poses that are open. It's the 19th century. I know this is the 1840s and 50s, but actually you can't help jump ahead a little bit to the Ripper cases later on

where you get this mixture of gore and violence and sex where women are concerned. It's just a very interesting, I know it's a generation apart, but there's something in that, I think. about taking a woman apart and almost to that kind of essence of what's inside you. Yeah, yeah. It's very disturbing, actually, when you see it in that case. Right. One of the questions I have then, as you are describing this and you're describing what is inside these doors. And, you know, they're being advertised. Anybody can, well, I'm assuming anybody can go, but what kind of audience is, are you and I just rocking up off the street? Is it just medical professionals? What's the audience for this? Well, that's really interesting because, you know,

certainly Dr. Kahn's isn't the first of these type of museums. You know, there was Raxtrose Museum in the 18th century that was there for a little while. That closes down. Then you actually get somebody who takes one of these anatomical venuses to a pub in Soho in 1825. And effectively, in that pub in Soho, anyone can go and see her lying there. And it's really popular. But the newspaper reports, you know, again, because of this sort of sexualized nature, they're not so popular.

So we get, under the pretense of imparting anatomical knowledge, this filthy figure, the property of Wormorio Esknoe, is exhibited. So, you know, it's disapproving. Is this the one in Soho? This is 1825 in Soho. And they go on to say, it is a large and disgusting doll. So, you know, we're getting that kind of idea that this is not proper. Yes.

But people go and see it and we still get further cases. like this. So, you know, we get Signosati in the 1840s, and some of these museums will not allow women in. You know, they're just for men. And then even amongst the men, some rooms, the ones which will show certain STDs, venereal diseases, are just for medical people. Right. So there is a distinction between who can go where, gendered distinctions, intellectual, education, distinctions, depending on what all of these different organisations have and hold and what their collections are. One thing I want to ask about that pub in Soho in the 1820s, first of all, it's interesting that it sounds to me like it was a French person who owned the, it's a French surname,

right? So obviously in the 1820s in England, Frenchness is not derogne necessarily. So there are two things to disapprove of there. Yeah, yeah. But then the other thing that strikes me is that, okay, it's in a pub and it seems inappropriate that that kind of an exposing is happening there. anyway. But it also says something about, so that's the gender side, but let's talk about the class side for a moment, because I wonder if to a certain extent the disapproval is this isn't for everybody's eyes, actually. This anatomical literacy should be reserved for certain people. You know, it's more complicated in that, but do you think there's an element of that in there as well? Oh, I definitely think there is, it's not right that certain people know about these things.

You still see that today, that there are certain museums that hold anatomical collections and you can only going to see them if you are in the medical profession. So, you know, there is that, still we do see that. Obviously, it's surgeons hall. We allow everyone in. Speaking of who's allowing who in and how far into this whole situation you can go, Dr. Khan, in this specific case, in his anatomical museum, he's in charge of this. Who is he? Well, he's a German doctor and we're putting doctor in scarecoats there. Right. There is no, that he ever got a medical degree and that will become very, very important later on.

And he seems to have exhibited certain of these kind of things in Germany, toured them around and again, touring these kind of collections has been going on since the very end of the 17th century, you know, with a man called Guillem de Nouve. But, you know, he comes to London

and in 1751 he opens up his anatomical and pathological museum. Right. And it's really, interesting because he seems to have a genuine desire to impart anatomical knowledge. Yeah, there seems to be two things going on here, that there is access to information. And as we will see, women are allowed into some of these places, as long as they're paying, of course. Yeah, some that often the women would be, they would have certain days for the women.

And there was actually a Madam Capstan's that was purely for women. Oh, okay. Yeah. And on the days that women were allowed into these places, certain of the models would be covered up or hidden away. So women are allowed some knowledge. Yeah, some knowledge, not the same kind of knowledge as men. No, heaven for friends. Absolutely not. That's not where we're going.

But if there's a question over his doctorhood, and we'll talk about those distinctions in a minute, probably what there isn't a distinction about is his business acumen, right? That this is a man who is trying to, even from the outset, even if he is trying to educate whatever, he's also trying to make money. He's definitely trying to make a living from this. You know, he's got.

to get something back. Yeah, he's not... Because, you know, if he wanted to be an anatomist in a medical school or in a private medical school, he could do that. Just head on up to Edinburgh. There's loads of people waiting there to do that. But that's not what he's doing. That's not what he's doing.

He has his museum two shillings to get in. It's not making enough money, so he drops the price to one shilling in the hope that that will get more people through the door. Okay, so he's adapting his business model depending on the ground. Yeah, and that's it. that you can see that kind of, let's say the evolution of his business model. Let's say that that's what it is.

Right, one thing, when producers Stu were talking to me about doing this episode, I was like, one question I will definitely have for Kat is I need to go through the formalities of all of these different names for the profession.

And I think Khan brings up a good point at which for us to discuss that. So what you will hear often, when you're talking about early 19th century specifically, is that we have physicians, we have surgeons, We have apothegries, and we have then kind of cowboys on licensed practitioners, whatever. The quack doctors. That's the word I was looking for. Now, let's just walk people through this because it's very easy to get confused with all of these things, like what the distinction is, how formally qualified these people are or not. Let's start with physicians specifically. If it is, let's say it's 1850, we're here and I say I am a physician. What does that actually mean? Have I done anything to qualify as that?

Very, very good question. Usually a physician is somebody who has been to university, a university-educated man. And of course, they are all men at this point. Yes, yes, yes. Yep. So it generally does indicate that there has been some kind of university education. Okay. However, as with Dr. Khan, there isn't really anything to stop you just saying you're a doctor. You know, there is no framework which really supports that. And then you have to surgeons. Right. There is a distinction between the physician and the surgeon. Absolutely. And Surgeons Hall, we are the Museum of the Royal College of Surgeons of Edinburgh. And we have been responsible for making sure who is a surgeon in Edinburgh since 1505. Oh wow. So that's regulated. So, well, they were making sure that unless you were a fellow of that guild and it started off as a trade guild, so you had to be a member, unless you were a member of that guild earlier, on you could not practice surgery in Edinburgh. Okay.

So there was a bit of regulation there. Can I just check here before we go on to any of the other categories? Barber surgeons, surgeons. So they start off as barber surgeons. I see. And effectively that's because barbers were the people who had tools. They could do that cutting business earlier on. And even, I mean, certainly you see this in Edinburgh,

even when you have the incorporation of barbers and surgeons, there's still often a distinction between who's doing barbary and who was doing surgery. So, you know, while a lot of times you got people doing both, by the time we get into the 17th century, there does seem to be a distinction between who is cutting hair and trimming beards and who is cutting a leg off. Thanks very much.

Exactly. But the thing about surgery is that you didn't go to university to learn it. You learned it by apprenticeship. So you signed an indentia with a master that said, you know, how long you would be with him for what you would do. So, you know, there was a whole range of stipulations about, you know, not starting fights and not going with loose women and all these kind of things. There was a whole array of things, behaviors you had to follow while you were indentured to your master. And then you would be examined and then you could practice

surgery. Right. So you don't have to have gone to university. So in that sense, if we're talking about the distinction between the physician and the distinction between the the surgeon, would you say that the physician is a little more gentlemanly? The physician is certainly more gentlemanly. There's a wonderful illustration from the 16th century that I like to use to illustrate this where you see the physician in a long robe. He's wearing glasses. So again, indicating that book learning thing.

Because we've all gone blind from that. Yes. He's just sort of, you know, there standing upright, not examining patients. He's just kind of standing there. Whereas you have the surgeon sitting nearby in, he's wearing a short robe because, you know, being practical to do these sort of things in a long robe. And he is sawing off a leg and he's a much more practical person. So this is the early distinction between physicians and surgeons. So that's, you know, we're talking sort of 16th century here.

Very early distinction. Yeah. Yeah. But 19th century, the surgeons are trying to, you know, make sure that, you know, that they're better regarded. So that kind of thing is, you know, they're trying to raise their class. And you can see this. Anyone that's been to Surgeons Hall, we are in a very, very grand, neoclassical building. That is really trying to make a statement going, look, we're important.

We're legit. Absolutely. We are legit. So, you know, that building is part of that trying to get that in. And in the beginning of the 19th century, this is when you're starting to get a lot more surgeons also going to university. It's not compulsory. Yeah. But they are doing that.

You are getting that kind of crossover. And we get a man called Thomas Keith in 1845. He will do a lot of good work on the surgery of variotomy, which is removing the ovaries, so gynecological surgery. But in 1845, he apprenticed to James Young Simpson, who you might have heard of as the man who discovered chloroform as an anesthetic. And Thomas Keith was said to be the last surgical apprentice in Edinburgh. So, you know, that's about this time.

Yeah. So, you know, you're still not getting that kind of surgeons as qualified medical men until, you know, we're getting that transition around this point. And isn't it interesting that, like, two questions are now binging in my head. Is it interesting that now the surgeon has gone above the physician? Absolutely. But, you know, a consultant surgeon will usually be Mr. or Ms. That was going to be my next question.

Is that because of this? That's he harking back. to, you know, these days when you weren't a qualified doctor. I love shit like that. Right. Okay, so we have our physicians and we have our surgeons and then the mixture of the two of them as we get on into the 19th century

or the line becomes a little bit more blurred. In my head, an apothecary is always a little bit more like a modern-day pharmacist. Yeah. Correct or incorrect? Absolutely. But you also get a bit more of a blurring because you have surgeon apothecries.

Oh, right. who are doing, you know, a bit of surgery, a bit of prescribing medicine. Say in a village or something where you have to be a bit of everything. And in some ways you could maybe think about them as like the way we think of a GP, something you would go for if anything was wrong. And again, you've got to remember for a lot of time, you know, physicians you would have to pay. So they would come to people's houses and they would, you know, they would visit people home, wealthy people at home, you know, people who had money.

And then they might out of charity, goodwill, do things in hospitals. where they would see the poorer members of society. Do you know, in Ireland you still have to pay for a doctor? So like if you go and you have a sit-down thing, it's like 70 euro for every thing you have, yeah. And like if, so I know this is years ago, but when my granddad was dying, a doctor would come to the house and you would have to, older people get it for free,

but there is still this kind of expectation that you'd slip them 50 euro or something if they've come to the house. So that's still very much there. I will say this. If my GP ever tries to cut my leg off, they'll be hearing from me, but that's neither hearing or there. Okay, so physicians, surgeons, apothegries,

unlicensed practitioners slash quack doctors. Quack doctors. This is where Khan's starting to come into it and this is his world. Yeah, so you've got to imagine that you've got to pay for a physician, you know, you would go and get something a bit cheaper. And of course there's mistrust, you know, it's not quite this sort of scene as being the same kind of profession as we would see it nowadays.

You might not get the treatment that you want. So there were a whole range of medicines that you might be able to buy, effectively snake oil salesmen, that people that would be selling things that would sort you out or allegedly sort you out. Sounds very wellness industry nowadays. Allegedly. I feel there is a lot of crossover.

Yeah, yeah. You know, take this vitamin and all your problems will be gone. Heights, allegedly. I need to stop naming brands, yes. Yeah. So exactly that kind of thing. And these people were, you know, they would have advertisements and places, you know, selling you things, especially if it was certain kind of conditions that you might not want to go and see a doctor about,

that there might be a little bit of stigma, you know, and so there might be adverts and toilets about things that you might be able to get. Oh, so we're talking about venereal disease here. We are. Okay, let's talk about that because let's talk about venereal disease. Because to a certain extent, Khan is capitalizing on this idea of taboo that's surrounding. Browns venereal disease or STDs or STIs, as we might call them today. And it is, as you say, there's this idea that you're going to find out about treatments in toilets, in public toilets, or there may be discrete places that you come across this information.

But here we are at 315 Oxford Street, pretty public, pretty out there. Okay, it's behind a closed door. But he is putting on display the impact of venereal disease on the human body. and he, I guess you can tie that up as being educational and to a large extent it might very well be, but also he's saying, and give me my shilling now. Yeah.

Before you can see it. So how does that part of the display work in terms, is that the real draw for people or are people absolutely mortified by it? Well, there seems to be a lot going on. You know, he's definitely trying to educate people and these things are not talked about very much. So people are fascinating. You know, there's several layers of the fascination.

First of all, the fact that we don't really know what the inside of our bodies look like. We were talking about this on the walk. We were walking over together. And you said something about you will never see the, unless something awful goes wrong. Yeah, it's a bad day if you're actually seeing the inside of your own body.

So, you know, the fact that, but it's so important to you, know, the fact that the things that are going on inside me are the reasons why I'm waving my hands around like this and the words are coming out of my mouth, you know, the thought processes, you know, the complex, Hulmonal soup in the way that that interacts with everything.

This makes you who you are. But you'll never know us. You have this black space inside of you filled with these things that you probably never see and don't understand. And so you can understand why people are fascinated by that. And then, you know, that you have these things that go wrong that people aren't talking about. And maybe you're coming to a place like this and you get to see it.

You know, you're getting to learn about these. things that get hinted at, but aren't really spoken about out in the open. One of those things, which I've never come across this before, is spermataria. Spermataria, involuntary or excessive discharge of semen. Now, don't clip that and use that in any way for my show reel or any kind of thing. But that is, it's interesting, right? Because, yes, we can laugh about it bodily functions. We all, you know, whatever.

But at the same time, well, first of all, that's not a condition, right? That's something that was kind of just made up in the 19th century. I mean, there's a lot of, they also have somebody, there's a model of the head and face of somebody who practice oninism. What the hell is that? Masturbation. Oh. You know, so that's the other thing, that there is a moralistic twist with all of this, you know, the idea that, you know, again, the Victorians, you know, we're not talking about this, but absolutely do not do it. Yeah. Oh, wait, I think I think I've seen this before. There's the figure of a man and there's a head and it's normal and then there's another

head of the same man but now his tongue is protruding and he's got some swelling maybe around his eyes or something. Is that linked to that? This is the kind of thing that we're talking about. This idea of it's just like you do that, see what's going to happen to you. Right. Yeah. So you definitely are getting this kind of moralistic, you know, element to all of this.

So how is the establishment? dealing with these kind of places or Kahn's place in specific because we know that there is a there's an interaction with the Lancet, right? Oh, absolutely. We all know what the Lancet is, but for those who may, let me just in case

we don't all know what the Lancet is, the Lancet is a medical journal, still around today, I think. Still around today. And it is the benchmark, right? Yeah, I mean, it was founded in 1823 by a man called Thomas Wakely. And his idea was that you have something

that's readable that you can present medical information from, so people can educate themselves. And he thought that by education, you might avoid some of those quack doctors and their snake oil. He starts off with a brief, which is effectively what the Lancet is all about. And they're very, very positive. So he opens in 1851, and they say, we paid a visit and were much gratified

with the collection of anatomical and surgical curiosities. Amongst the most interesting that deserves approbation, is the anatomical Venus, which takes to pieces for the purpose of exposing the general anatomy and the relationships of the various viscera. All together, it is a splendid collection, and a great deal of general information is to be obtained by visiting it. So this is really, really... That's a five-star review. Absolutely. You'd want this on Trip Advisor, wouldn't you? Absolutely. Put that in your posters. Yeah. So what goes wrong then? Well, you know, we talked before about Khan and his business model. Yes.

Yeah. He's not making the kind of. money that you want. And he takes the collection on tour and yeah, so it goes to various places in the provinces. Provinces, I'm talking about places like Manchester and Sheffield. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. What they think of as the provinces. And so people are seeing it and then he returns to London. He has a couple of different locations in London. Obviously that, you know, that first one, a bit too expensive. Sure. You know. I can imagine primary estate. Exactly. And so, you know, yeah. He's still not making what he wants.

And he sells some models to a company who are known as Perryan company. Okay. And they make it out that it's a family business. Their name is Jordan, not Perry. Oh, so much edge on that? Yeah. Effectively what they're doing is they are selling those kind of quack remedies for STDs that, you know, that we were talking about earlier.

And so they think that if they have some of these models, that they can use that for teaching. people. It legitimizes what they're selling, yeah. And so Khan gets a bit of money that way. And then he effectively goes into partnership with them. Right. He's going into partnership with them. He's using his models so that he can educate people about venereal diseases. He's giving lectures. And then you exit through the gift shop and you can buy some of parian co's remedies. So he's going from this fairly educational basis. And we talked about the heterodelf earlier. The heterodelf only is born in 1857. But one of the things Khan does is use the heterodilf, use this young boy to talk about the fact that

maternal impressionism, the idea that things that you see you while you're pregnant cause these kind of birth defects. Joseph Merrick. I mean, Joseph Merrick is born, what, five years later? And they were absolutely convinced that this was down to things that his mother had seen while she was pregnant. She had seen an elephant crush a man. Yeah. But in 1810, In 1557, Kahn is using the Heterodev to say, that's bollocks. Oh, yeah. Khan is doing that. Kahn is doing that.

One of the things he's doing is talking about embryology and things like that. He's showing that this is not true. So there really is this tension and dichotomy between what he's doing because he is educating. He is right in some ways, but then he's exploitative in other ways. Absolutely. And this is where the Lancet kind of goes, we're not having that. I see. You know, they're really, by 1857 and his partnership,

with Perry and Co. They come along and they refer to it as that den of obscenity. Oh, wow. So now we've gone from five-star view to a one-star review. Absolutely. This is a very, very, very different language. They say, disgusting and immoral, depriving the mind of the ignorant and unwary. Oh, dear. Yeah. And I would just like to quickly do a shout out here. To the ignorant and unwary. Not to the ignorant and unwary. Not to our library and archive assistant Robin Frickster Patterson, who basically was the person who went and scanned all these issues of The Lancet for me when I was researching these a couple of years ago.

So he did an absolute, I mean, he's amazing at just magically making articles appear anyway, but he did physically go through old 19th century issues, issues of the Lancet for me, getting these out. So thanks, Robin. That is, it's interesting to see the switch, right? Going from five-star view to one-star view, because what it does is it shows,

as so many people were in many ways, that Khan is trying to eke out of living in a city, or in a country as he's up and down the country touring this. That is, it's difficult, right? It is, you are having to hustle, you're having to have side hustles, you're having to be a million things. We can all identify with those kind of things today. But it is him trying to find a way to survive. And yes, I think when I was looking at some of these details, there is definitely a drive to educate.

And I also was kind of thinking, you know, he's letting women in to some of the spaces, some of the spaces, that other people are absolutely, not. Yes, they have to pay, but there is access there. So there's something there too. But by the time it comes to the kind of end of this particular museum, it does start to smell of exploitation and desperation, actually, to a certain extent. So what happens in the end? So we know it gets closed. Well, it kind of just passes over to Perry & Co. Right. Yeah. So we get a thing, you know, we talked before about the difference in medical men. In 1858, we get a medical act which says that in order to be a doctor, you have to be registered. I see. Can's not doing the admin. Khan can't do that. And he applies. And they kind of go, yeah, and they go, we've got no evidence

that you practiced. And so he ends up leaving the country. And we kind of lose sight of Khan. And Perry and Co. take over the business. And you can imagine at this point. We're in to essentially freak show at this point. Yes, absolutely. But then another thing happens. So 1858 we get the Medical Act. The year before that, so 1857, the same year that the Lancet are referring to this as a den of obscenity, we get the Obscene Publications Act. Ah. Yeah. So now what are we able to describe to advertise these things?

What are, is that going to impact how this business is disseminated? Information about the business is disseminated? Yeah, well, it's not only that because the obscene publication act, I mean, you say it, it makes me think of like people who are disdemean. distributing porn. You know, it sounds like it's due with pornography. But in the Victorian period in 1858, this is not, 1857, this is not just about porn. It's also about things that promote conduct inconsistent with public morals, which is a very different thing. Very Victorian thing. Very Victorian thing. So you've got to imagine that they're able to basically frame it as if, if you go along to Kahn's Medical Museum, and it still is called Karns.

Perry and Co. are not changing the name. They're still having Dr. Khan, you know, giving it that air of legitimacy. If you're going along there and effectively it's like saying, well, if you've got an STD, it's all right, this is what you can do about it. That's almost promoting the kind of behaviour which is likely to get you a venereal disease in the Victorian imagination. And that, according to the Obscene Publications Act, was not acceptable. It's a no-no. Yeah, yeah. And so you also get things.

Like there's one point when the Lancet says maybe the Society for the Suppression of Weiss should go and look at Dr. Kans. Yeah, exactly. And so in 1873, because of this, and you know, this has taken a while. I was going to say that's almost like a generation later. 1873, 1873, some of these models are confiscated and prosecution takes place. And we get Mr. Collette, who is the head of the Society for the Suppression of Vice, flagredly in contradiction to this act, he says, can I have the pleasure of smashing these models myself?

And so this happens in court. Oh, he does it in court. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. And I mean, these are anatomical models. And I mean, I know you follow me on Instagram. You know how much I love a good anatomical model. I have spent a lot of my time on holiday going to look at these very kind of models.

The Times noted how elaborate and how expensive these models would be at. the time. Yeah. And they're getting smashed. Actually what a waste. That just, it just breaks my little heart. Yeah, yeah. It breaks your Gothic little heart.

It does. It is, it's such a fascinating snapshot. And this is why I just, this is not somebody I'd known an awful lot about. And when I was researching for him when I knew we were doing this episode, I googled him, as you generally would, just to see what's out there. And the answer is not very much at all. Absolutely. It's not something that is just slap bang in the middle of the internet.

And you know, I think I went on YouTube to see if there's anything there just to see what's in the public sphere. There's not very much about him and this particular museum. No, we get some snapshots through publications. You know, there is a publication. You can find it digitally at the Welcome collection about the Hedredelph and, you know, what he said about that.

And you get this kind of progression through the Lancet, but it's just fleeting. Yeah, yeah. It gives this idea that, you know, this idea that he's coming from Germany, traveling up and down the country, then leaves. And I think comes back at some point, but that transitory thing has also meant

that he's spread out archivally and slightly lost. I'm sure there's probably more sitting in archives somewhere across the world. But it's such an interesting snapshot of a moment in time and this kind of moralizing around one's body, even the internal part of one's body and how that's being policed and who gets to see it and how women don't get to see it. But nonetheless, it's women's anatomy that's being bared in this Venus model, which is in pubs or in this particular place.

Like it's exploitative, but it also seems to be educational. But at the same time, the people who are saying that it's exploitative are also exploiting it in their own way for other ends. It's just so very Victorian. And it's such a great little stories. I'm so glad that you've brought us this particular one today, Cap. What I told you, I told you this is going to be like completely immersive. And we're going down dark alleys of the 19th century, as we will continue to do, not just the 19th century. If you've enjoyed this episode, and I know I have, this is why we thought up of After Dark.

It's just such a, oh, we love all this stuff. Then leave us a five-star review wherever you get your podcasts. Did you know, we are also on YouTube. So you can go and watch us, have this conversation there, if you're not already on our YouTube channel. You can find me at Anthony Delaney History, if you'd like to follow me on social media. Where can they find you? At anatomical cat. I see what you did there.

Bring it all to the people. Guys, until next time, go back and listen to cats, older. episodes. What? We have, about boogie candles. I remember that. That was Osuries. That was the Paris catacombs. Paris catacombs. And there's other episodes. No, that's it. That's the only one I've done once. Yes. Yes. We've recorded about broken hair and done filming. Oh, we haven't. Oh, yeah. Go watch that. That's good. That's good. Yeah. Yeah. If I say it on myself. Anyway, that's enough until next time. Happy listening.