After Dark: Myths, Misdeeds & the Paranormal - The Medieval Murder of Thomas Becket

Episode Date: March 5, 2026

Anthony is joined by the iconic Eleanor Janega from our sister podcast 'Gone Medieval' to tell the story of the most famous murder of the medieval world - Thomas Becket, Archbishop of Cantebury.How did a bromance between Thomas and his king turn into a deadly divide between church and crown?This episode was edited by Hannah Feodorov. Produced by Stuart Beckwith. The senior producer was Freddy Chick.You can now watch After Dark on Youtube! www.youtube.com/@afterdarkhistoryhitSign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries, with a new release every week and ad-free podcasts. Sign up at https://www.historyhit.com/subscribe.  You can take part in our listener survey here.All music from Epidemic Sounds.After Dark: Myths, Misdeeds & the Paranormal is a History Hit podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

A fire snaps in the hearth. The hall is loud with Christmas feasting, but the mood turns. In Normandy, before a court of armed retainers and watchful bishops, Henry II is pacing. Once, he and Thomas Beckett hunted together, governed together, trusted each other absolutely. Now the king and the Archbishop of Canterbury stand on opposite sides of a question that cuts to the bone of medieval Europe. Who truly ruled medieval England?

Crown or church? Beckett has excommunicated royal allies. He has defied the crown, and Henry's anger spills over. Will no one rid me of this troublesome priest? His cry echoes off the thick stone walls, and four knights hear more than frustration. They hear a call to action.

The most notorious murder of the Middle Ages took place on the evening of December 29th, 1170. Four nights burst into a cathedral. Within minutes, the Archbishop, the most senior spiritual leader in the country, lay dead. His skulls split open before the altar. This was not a Viking raid, nor a foreign invasion. This was a political murder inside the heart of Christianity in England. and at the centre of it all stands a king, Henry II, and the man he once called a friend, Thomas Beckett.

How did all of this come to pass? Today, we're joined by the one and only Dr. Eleanor Janaga to tell the story of the most infamous assassination in medieval history. Welcome to After Dark and the history of Thomas Beckett. Well, hello there, and welcome to After Dark. I am Anthony. And I am Eleanor. Now, Eleanor, as you might have guessed, is not

Maddie, because if you've been listening to us for quite a while, you'll know that Maddie has had a brilliant little arrival in her life, and we are so excited for her. She will of course be back, but until then, I am going to be joined by a bevy of historical heroes, the first of which who could be better than Eleanor, who is going to guide us through some of medieval history's most incredible, thrilling and dark histories. Today's episode is one that we've wanted to do for ages on After Dark actually, and it is the murder of Thomas Beckett, because in 1170, England's most powerful king and his former best friend collided in a battle over power, loyalty, and the limits of authority. Thomas Beckett, once a wealthy, worldly royal chancellor and the trusted right-hand man

of Henry II, reinvented himself as Archbishop of Canterbury and a fierce defender of church independence. But following years of tension over who controlled the clergy, this pushed their relationship past breaking point, and we have four knights that are turning up to Canterbury Cathedral and everything after that changes. This episode traces how a political argument became a killing at the altar and why that night echoed across medieval Europe. Okay, that's enough of the actual work. Eleanor is a co-host on After Dolly. Hi, Atatur. This is so exciting. I was like, Like, let's just do the formal bit. We'll get that out of the way.

And then we can do the fun bit. Yay! Let's gossip about dead people. Let's gossip about living people too, but just not on air. Anyway, so it is great to have you on After Dark because you've been here a million times. The listeners, the viewers on YouTube adore you and why wouldn't they? But you've explained this before. But for anybody who maybe has come to After Dark in the last few months, you have a particular draw to the dark side of history too, right?

That's right. There is just something wrong with me. You're in the right place then. Like, listen, I was raised spooky. You know, I didn't really have any way of getting out of it. You know, I've got this specific thing where my parents are both like the children of immigrants. We're from spooky backgrounds on both sides. So I was raised with a lot of ghost stories, a lot of things of that nature, and I've kind of never got away from it.

So it's one of my research interests and specialties as well, you know. So within medieval history, I do a lot of work on apocalypticism, and I'm currently writing a book about historical ghosts. So basically, if you leave me alone for too long, I will try to find a monster. If you leave me alone for too long, I will haunt people. It's true. It's true. Like, I can't wait to die because, like, I'm coming for all your asses. I am so not afraid to die.

And I wonder if that's something got to do with that, because I know part of your heritage is Irish as well. We've talked about this in the podcast before. We literally come from the same field. It's fine. It's so weird. We did not know each other prior to history, but part of your family and all of my 100% DNA of my family is from essentially the same field in Kenney. It's crazy. Okay, Thomas Beckett.

We're here. Yeah. We're not queer, but that's fine. That's all right. Forgive him that. So why was it that you wanted to start with this particular history? I think this is a really interesting one because Thomas Beckett, I think, is close to a medieval household name. Yeah, yeah.

This is one that really comes up in people's imaginations. And fundamentally, it is a really brutal murder, right? But it combines everything that I really love, propaganda. Again, gossip. You know, and it really does kind of show you the heart of how medieval people think and what that can mean if things go too far. Now, granted, this is essentially a slap fight that turns into a real fight between, incredibly wealthy people, right? This is the province of the wealthy and powerful. Most medieval

people, they're down the field, right? They're with the rest of our ancestors. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? Like, that's what's happening right now. But this is the sort of thing that will eventually culturally trickle down to them, and it has a great deal of meaning. What happens to Thomas Beckett is absolutely awful, but it also ends up generating really good publicity for the church in England. He becomes basically a superstar saint. People start coming. to England from other parts of the continent. And prior to this, they simply would not do that. It's difficult for us to understand now, but England is a real backwater in the medieval period.

It is not particularly important. It's the sort of place where French people can just come take over whenever they want, because it's just up for grabs. It's not like the Holy Roman Empire. It's not like France. It's not like all of these big ticket places on the continent. It is a weird little island where they're doing weird little things, right? But Thomas Beckett really helps put it on the map for people.

It helps to make England a destination for people who want to go on pilgrimage. And actually, I think people still probably do a version of that pilgrimage today, right? They will come to his tomb and that's a name or Thomas Beckett or Thomas A Beckett. I remember when we were doing our undergrad, it was always Thomas A Beckett. Oh, I love that. Yeah, it was very dramatic for some random reason. But it was one of the, he's one of the names, as you say, that still pushes through, right? Because there's a shitload of medieval saints that you would forget about.

And there are great stories and they're great histories. But this is one that really pushes through. And I love that you've given us an idea there about like what England was like, right? So there's a kind of medieval backwater. But actually, in some ways, it's when it's at its best. Because it's hodgepodge. It's unruly to a certain extent. And this history feeds directly into that

because what is the relationship at the outset of this before we get to the murder between the church in England, not the church of England, but the church in England and the monarch who is, we'll talk about Henry in a minute, but what is that relationship like at this particular point? Okay, so here we are. We are in the 12th century, bordering on the 13th century, right at the end there, okay? And at this point in time,

the church is undergoing a really big push, for renewal. And one of the things that is happening is what we now call the investiture controversy or the investiture contest. And this is a specific thing where previously, up to this point, kings usually choose who their bishops and archbishops are. Okay. Kings usually choose who their bishops and archbishops are. Okay, fine. I'm with you. And so you will say, oh, look, this very important office has opened up for somebody within the church. And, you know, you put your cousin in there. You put someone that you're good friends with in there because

you know that they're going to agree with you on things. The church hates this. The church hates this one weird trick. But the thing about this is, finally, in the 12th century, the church has a little bit of power. This is going to surprise people

because I think that there is a tendency to think about the church in the medieval period as this all-powerful institution that is really breathing down everybody's necks. That is true from the 12th century. Right. We got to understand, right,

look, the medieval period starts in 476. It's a long old time, really. Yeah, yeah. And the entire time, the Bishop of Rome has been going, guys, I am so important. Like, wow, everybody

look at the Bishop of Rome. I'm going to try and make this a thing. What? And by the 12th century, it's finally happened. You know, they've done it. The skin has worked. You know, it took 500 years,

but they did it, right? And so they kind of celebrate, by trying to crack down, make these legal justifications for why does they're in power? And one of the things that they want to do is they want to put archbishops, especially, but certainly bishops in. That isn't the way England thinks things should be done. Now, granted, no king thinks. Yeah, yeah, of course, of course. It's not popular.

You know, there are, there's all sorts of things going on in France at the time. Like, King Louis is constantly beefing with the Pope about this. They're like, who is going to be a bishop and when? people are getting threatened with excommunication. But England is like, well, here we do things differently. And we're far enough away that we kind of can. You can get away with it because, like, what are you going to do? Getting a boat come up here?

You're not going to do that. So it does mean that they get away with a little bit more. And that is certainly true in terms of the appointment of Thomas Beckett in the first place. But I guess this is a good place for me to ask you a question. Oh, go on. What do you know about? our boy. So again, it is, it is, so yeah, this is, this is good actually because we will come to Henry,

but what do I know about Thomas to begin with? I know that he is a saint. I know that he is, spoiler alert, killed brutally by the end of this particular story. I mean, we're going there. I know that there are knights involved in that. I know that it happens. Oh, I think that it happens in Canterbury Cathedral, right? It does.

It does. That is correct. Yeah. Obviously, I know it's medieval. I don't really know why it happened. I don't really know what. But I do, I seem to vaguely remember that his relationship with Henry, the king, Henry's second, right? Henry the second, got it.

Is at the heart of this. Yes, absolutely. So who is he? Okay. Apart from the king, obviously. Henry the second, I would argue and do argue, what of our best kings actually? actually. Like this whole nonsense aside, like he does pretty well. He is the one who will marry your friend and mine, Eleanor Vauquitaine. Yes. Friend of the podcast. Yes, we've had her on multiple

times. But, you know, he is also ruling England at a time when it is at the height of its powers. So, especially after his marriage to Eleanor, he is co-ruling what we now refer to as the Angevin Empire. So these guys are the Angevans. That's their deal. And so they rule England, obviously. Now, can I just say, just to stop you there, sounds like a pizza topping, an anjuven. I'm just thinking of an anchovy, maybe. I love, also, can I just say that I'm here listening to a medieval expert, and you are sharing these wealths of information. Oh, yeah. And I'm going, do you know what that reminds me of, Eleanor, a pizza? Do you know? And this is my contribution on this podcast. Jesus weft, my ancestors should be. But you're so real for that.

He's just like, anyway, go on. Sorry, the anchovies. No, the end chovies. No, the end. Andgevans. Angevins, the Angevins. She's learning. Yeah, listen, she can be taught. Yeah. The important thing is here, they've got England, but they've also got, you will remember Normandy, that's where the kings and queens of England come from.

All of these people are only and exclusively speaking French. We need to be clear on that. I think that's really good to remind us of that, actually. And that's how French becomes the courtly language for so long. Yeah. So it's like, this man cannot speak English. He's like, he's not about that life, right? But he's also got these huge parts of land down in southern France by dint of marrying Eleanor.

So he controls Aquitaine as well. I mean, Eleanor does it, but like, listen, don't tell him that. So, like, they control more of France than the French king does, which is very funny. And they have bits of whales. You know, they're kind of, like, constantly fighting with the Scottish. So it's just a lot of land. They've got a lot of money, and they are incredibly powerful. And he does a really good job, actually, of keeping these huge contiguous bits going.

And, you know, like in the 12th century, that's a pretty big deal because you can't move very quickly compared to now. So it's like you've got sort of a max 30 miles a day unless you're in a boat. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But he does a really great job administering all of this. And, you know, part of that is Eleanor. But, like, that's fine. That's another story. But he's this incredibly powerful guy who's also come to the throne in a weird way.

we've just come out of the period here in England called the Anarchy. Basically, Henry's mum, the Empress Matilda, was due to inherit the throne, but everyone was like, actually, we don't really like women. We don't want to do that. So instead, her cousin's Stephen takes over. Stephen? Not Stephen. Not Stephen.

That just seems a bit every day, Stephen. Like, what's Steve doing here? Right? Stephen's going to kill the vibe. But, like, Steve, it's like a race. He gets here first. He gets the crowd on his head. How many King Stevens have we had?

I think just the one. Surely. Because it's like stupid name. Yeah, sorry to all the Stevens. My best friend as a child was Stephen, and I actually do quite like the name. So my best friends of Stevens. Yeah. But it's just so on, I mean, you know, it's not very kingly.

Yeah, you know, it is quite funny. It's like how if you look too closely at German emperors, a lot of them are called Carl. And it's like, what's Carl doing here? Yeah. And the answer is like, rule. ruling an empire, I guess. Yeah, sorry. So Stephen's doing very...

So Stephen undercuts Matilda. Yeah. Yeah. And basically they end up at an impasse. Like, Matilda's got a court, Steven's got a court, everybody's ruling different bits. And this ends up going to Henry because Stephen's kid dies and they're like, I guess we don't really have an air.

And so Stephen makes Henry his air, right? So Henry's also got this real chip on his shoulder because he's like, bro, we just got control back of England. So he wants everything to be just. so, and does a good line in that. And that involves his relationship with Thomas as well, because when the Archbishop of Canterbury dies, he's like, bra, I'm going to get in my good friend. Vanessa Feltz. Exactly, right.

No, nothing touched to do with Vanessa Feltz. So this, right, so they're friends prior to the really good friends. Yeah, and this is a weird one, right? Because Thomas comes from relatives. He's a London boy. Okay. London wide boy. It's really cute. If you go over, it's near gutter lane, there's like a little plaque on the side of the

building where he was born adorable. We love to see a Thomas Beckett plaque. So, but he's coming from a family of merchants. Okay. You know, obviously, like, Londoners are quite well to do. This is kind of like the burgeoning middle class at the time. But obviously, usually archbishops are drawn from royalty. Some kind of dynastic background, yeah.

And now he's a very silly young man. by all accounts. He and Henry go hunting all the time, like they're party boys. They are drinking. They are carousing. So when the office opens up, Henry's like,

aha. Here's the thing I'm going to do. I'm putting my boy Thomas in. I know that I can trust him. I will be able to control him well. He's going to look out for the interests of the crown as opposed to the church.

And you might say, like, well, Eleanor, why do we even care about that? Like, it's the church. Like, what is they going to do, like, say, pray less? Yeah. But the church is a huge landowner. Of course. So they own about a third of the land in England at the time.

So it does mean that there are kind of like knock on effects for how taxation works and things like this. Where does the money go? That's like the constant question. If you were to cast these two men in a period drama, who's going to play them? This is such a good question. Just because I just want to have the visual. Okay. So I feel like for Henry, we need someone kind of like, he's by all accounts, like, quite handsome. He's fairly tall. That's why it's going to be your issue with actors. So it's like Jacob Allorty. Yeah. He's tall, right? He's tall. Yeah. We'll throw him in. And then for Thomas, he's also similarly like, ooh, people were like, oh, he's like a bit handsome. But we want like a kind of like a shorter king. We want like, you know, somebody who has sort of. And we want like, you know, somebody who has sort of. And he's like a bit handsome. But we want like a kind of like a shorter king. Okay. We want, like, you know, somebody who has sort of a good vibe, but could at any moment become a nerd.

Okay. Who's intense enough? Oh, it has to be intense. No, I think this, I'm going to stick with my gut instinct on this. You know, I'm so sorry, I can't remember his name because I think he is one of the best actors of this generation, actually. I'm saying that officially now. What is Sir Shironan's, is that her name? Yeah.

What is Sir Shironan's husband's name? The Scottish guy. Him. Yeah, he's good. Put the name in the, put the name in the, Mr. Shirsharo. Yes. Yes.

Yeah. Yeah. When you were talking, I was like, yeah. Okay. No, this is good. He's in slow horses, right? Yeah. We love slow horses.

Yeah, I only got into it really late, but like, yeah, it's, I do love it. Jack Loudon, producer Freddie has filled us in. Jack Loudon. Jack Loudon. That's one. Okay, so, yeah, this is great. So this is what we're talking about, right? Important stuff, important tangents.

Listen, listen. So these two lads are, Jacob and Jack are getting on perfectly well. Yeah. They have a lovely time. They are vibe. off each other, they are now at a point where because Henry is in power, he's like, I can extend my, it's quite savvy, actually. Yeah, it's strategic.

Yeah. And Henry is the king of this stuff. I mean, and also the king of England. But, you know, he's really good at kind of understanding where power lies and how to push it. The trouble is that the church at this point in time, you know, like they've did it, guys, like they're in control of everything. They're also doing a period of kind of crackdown. And these happens sort of, I would say, like, every 150 years or so in the medieval period.

Like we have, you know, someone will come in, they'll reform the church. 150 years later, the monks are all jacking each other off again. And then you got to, like, come back and then be like, stop doing that, right? So. I wasn't sure you said that. I was a little bit like, did she say it? I was just looking at her going, did you say that? You know who I was when you invited me on.

Yes, she said it. Listen, it's fine. So basically, in the 12th century, we're having, like, one of these big crackdowns. And big parts of this are, like, this is when it becomes official. They're, like, seriously, guys, no getting married. Right. Like, it takes until the 12th century to really be like, I'm serious, you can't have a wife. They are, like, basically doing a lot of kind of legal points around things about, like, where money goes.

Again, you know, they are deciding the church is supposed to be able to appoint archbishops. Basically, it's like real captain bring down stuff. Like, I mean, probably a good idea not to let priests get married because the issue was they were just like giving their kids like the church when they died and it was like that's a recipe. The word nepotism comes from, right? Exactly. Remember that from undergrad. Yeah. So it's like, this is a big issue.

Now, what, you kind of hinted at this already, but we have archbishops usually coming from fairly elite, dynastic families. We have, it's a power structure as well as it kind of. an ecclesiastical thing, of course. But what is the role of an archbishop at this time? This is a great question because archbishops, so when we say archbishop, it means you're more important than a regular bishop. Right. Okay, so in the Archbishop of Canterbury, in particular, he's the highest member of the church in England. Right. Right. And so what you are going to be doing is overseeing matters in ecclesiastical court, which is a thing. Okay, and ecclesiastical courts, a lot more busy in the medieval period than they would be now.

because there's all sorts of things that come down to being like ecumenical matters. That's like Father's Head. Yeah. You're like that. That would be an ecumenical matter. Exactly. And so, you know, basically, you know, a lot of things, if it isn't troubling specifically the king's peace, you go to church court about it.

Right? It's like, you know, things like adultery, things, even sometimes like murder. Sodomy? Yeah, sodomy. Absolutely. These are the sorts of things you're going to go in and they're going to say, you're very naughty 10 Hail Marys, like, get out of here. Even like previous to this, usually the church did oversee things like murder.

The church would be like, and the kind of like the thing for murder was you had to make it right with a family. Right, yeah. And that was kind of like the big thing. So there is like an actual legal responsibility. They also are going to be the point of contact with Rome. I see. Ah. Oh, so this is really important.

It's really big. It's really big. So when Rome needs to put out new decrees about stuff, like especially, new matters about, like, who can get married, etc., etc. They're going to write to the Archbishop, and they're going to be like, listen, here's the deal. And this is what you need to do. He will be going back and forth to Rome a lot.

He's going to be the one that is essentially the papal envoy without being a papal envoy. So you're supposed to really be the guy. And it gives this other center of power, and this is why it's dangerous, I suppose. And this is why Henry, on the surface of it, is being quite smart in appointing his friend, because it gives this other centre of power that's not the king in England. And that centre of power is linked to another massive centre of power, as you've just been saying, in Rome.

And there are worlds in which this person could, if they were so inclined, challenge your authority, I suppose, or the ways in which you're trying to go about things. And again, this is why appointing Thomas, good old Tommy, is a great idea. On the surface of it, this ain't ending in a horrendous murder on the floor of Canterbury Cathedral. So what starts to happen? Why does this? Where's the tension? Unfortunately, Thomas wakes up one day and decides to be a nerd. He decides like, what he gets religion.

He has a little road to Damascus moment. Like the minute he becomes Archbishop, he's like, actually, can I just surprise everyone? I love the church. I'm into this. I love it. We need to crack down. Like, I am the Pope's boy. He's got like a number, he's got like a number one foam finger.

He's hold it up. He's like, church, church. Okay. So I have a question about this because what, do we know what kind of roughly age he is when he becomes archbishop? He's in his 40s. We can only ever know rough ages for medieval people. We never know when they're born. It's like vibes.

So I'm just wondering like if it's a bit of a, you know the way sometimes you see these weird progressions in people? I'm thinking a certain podcast presenter that is very broie and has. ventured into kind of toxic masculinity that was kind of some sort of pseudo therapist totally unqualified to be as such. But there's sometimes this bro culture, and you've

kind of been describing a bit of bro culture, right? Sometimes that starts to manifest into something far more staunch. And so what we see with Thomas is that he's like, actually, I love a rule. Yeah. Suddenly,

I am all about the church. I don't care about my relationship with Henry the second. Oh, does he just abandon him? He's just like, yeah, well, whatever, I wouldn't do that, right? All of this kind of comes to a head in the year of our Lord 1164. And Henry attempts to bring something out that is called the Constitutions of Clarendon. This is a very smart thing that he's done. And essentially what he is doing is some legal decrees to limit the amount of power that the church gets to have in England.

Okay. He's like, let's draw a line under this, baby. Like, that's cute. Like, you're the archbishop. I see you've got some land. I love your architecture. That is so nice for you. Lovely stained glass windows.

But the thing about that is you can keep all that in the church. Hello, I am the king and you are not the boss of me. Yeah. He's expecting Thomas to be like so true bestie. Yeah, this is what we planned. Go off, go off. And Thomas is like, no. That is not how this works.

Can I ask a question here? Yeah, of course. Do you think that that is, conversion, as in Thomas, I know it's impossible to know this, we're going too far back, but I'm just interested to know what your instinct is on it, that he is gone all in on the religion and he's like, yes, I'm here first. Or is he going, now I've got some power? It's so difficult to say because I think that to a certain extent, you know, what Henry was thinking when he put him on the throne, he says, like, oh, here's some guy who's just like a shopkeeper's

son. This is something that they would like gossip about him. So he's always going to be in my He's going to be so thankful that he's reached these lofty heights. I mean, we call bishops the princes of the church. Yes. So this is the most power that anyone could ever think to get. And he thinks that Thomas is going to be grateful. It's very possible that Thomas is like, yeah, who's the shopkeeper's son now, bro? You know, it might be specifically a clash of characters about the fact that he's always been in this position.

But it's also very difficult to know with medieval people because they are always constantly on the verge of having a religious moment. Right. You know, we have to understand that these people do genuinely believe this stuff. Now, granted, are there huge incentives for them to believe in these things? Yeah, absolutely. But we do live in a world where both these men are Christians. Yes. Like, you know, they believe the whole shebang, right?

And they're jockeying for position within that world. So I can't say for certain, but I also wouldn't take up. either of those things off the table. Because from what you've said then, it seems that both things are so intertwined that would actually be impossible to really answer that because they are coexistent in their minds.

Exactly. Right. Like, it's a modern conceit that you can separate the two things. It's like there is no taking this out of religion for medieval people. Yeah, that's so interesting. Now, we're still, we're at a point where Beckett's pissed him off,

basically pissed Henry off. Sure has. And he's thinking, right, I'm now dedicated to the church. Henry's, I actually really admire that from what you've just said about Henry because of trying to consolidate his power over the church. Because it, however some people, and I'm sure they did, especially within the church power structure, saw that as maybe overstretching or tyrannical or whatever we want to, words we want to put on it now. If you are a ruler and if you are trying to expand your territory and have this, you know, it's not absolute monarchy yet. But like if you want to start laying the seeds of what will eventually blossom into that, this is the way to do it.

My power is all powerful. It reaches everywhere. It's in every corner of this kingdom, including in those, you know, almost palatial. And I mean, bishops had palaces of certain descriptions. So it makes sense. And I think if you're going to be a king, you need to be trying to do that, whether it's morally right in our own modern ideas kind of irrelevant. So I would imagine then when he gets as that type of king, who is, I don't want to say obsessed,

but who is using power as a way to legitimize his position, I'm imagining he's not going to take this pushback from his old pal very well. No, not at all. Right. And I mean, similarly from Thomas's side, now that he believes all this stuff, the church kind of can't let this happen. Right, because if what the church is saying is, no, actually, you have to take us really seriously, we're the most important people in Europe. Really, the Pope is the boss of everybody. Yes. Right.

You can't let the constitutions of Clarendon go through it. Right? Like, that has to, has to be stopped. So, you know, this is just like, we're at loggerheads here. Neither of these men are going to give up on it. So what happens as a result is Thomas just dips. Oh, he goes. He runs.

He runs. Right. He is out of the country for six years. Now that's interesting because, yes, now that you've said that, I'm like, oh, yeah, there's an exile. But I would have assumed it was an imposed exile, but no, it's a self-imposed exile. Yeah, he gets out and he goes to Rome. And so, and like, this is the thing. Like, he's like, dad, Henry's being mean to me.

And, like, so he just goes, he just is talking to the church and he's like explaining this entire thing. He does a good line of bouncing between really virtuous monasteries as well. Okay. So he's, like, doing a big tour, like, he ends up at Clooney. He ends up in all of these places where, like, the monks are working overtime. You got to understand, again, in the 12th century, it's just like the monks are going for it. This is the time when we've got, like, enemy of the podcast. I'm declaring him as such. Bernard of Clairvaux. So, or Bernard, depending on how you want to say it. Bernie. You know, who the cute dogs are named after. We love the, love the dogs, hate the saint. Yeah. But, like, motto for life, you just get a t-shirt, a t-shirt with that on. So true. And he is like doing a big crackdowns. And this is kind of the milieu that Thomas has now steeped in. So it only makes it worse. Right? In England. Yeah. And so basically he is just bouncing around hanging out with all these monks on the continent. And they're like, yeah, like your king is bad and also sucks. Would you like to get more radicalized? I was literally, this is the word I was thinking of. It's like it's radicalization. But also in terms of him, it's smart in a way. Because it's also a long term goal branding. where he's like, I am around these people.

I am in and out of these, you know, you're talking about like kind of top-notch monasteries and he is showing himself to be one of their number as well as then kind of experiencing this type of radicalization. It's really interesting. And I think that that is really key to understanding all of this because when he shows back up in England in 1170... Okay, we're back, yeah.

So he comes back. And everyone's kind of surprised. They're like, oh, you're back. You don't need to be here now. Because everyone understands that this is a really tense situation that could turn violent. And so we have to understand from Thomas's standpoint, he is kind of tempting fate, right? This is an interesting point, right? Because so he is and he will become a martyr, right?

Like we're like, again, flash forward. But it is weird to have. have a high medieval, we're in the high medieval period here, like right in the middle of it. It is weird to have a high medieval martyr, right? Martyrs of the church, most of them come from like the late antique period. It's like when we still got Romans around. Like ordinarily to get martyred, you got to get martyred by a pagan, right? You need to be like someone who's like, I am preaching to the people of Pomerania and you got to get got by like a Germanic pagan.

Is that where the dogs come from? Yeah. Okay. It's important. More dogs. My God. So there's always a dog. So you've got to get killed by like the Umeid Caliphate in Spain in like, you know, the year 800.

You know, like it's got to be like that. It is weird and difficult to get martyred in the 12th century because we've mostly Christianized most of Europe by this point in time. Even the Vikings have given it up. It's basically just Estonia. Systems in place. Yeah. And so who's going to kill you? Yeah.

Right. Like that's weird. But it's still something that Christians aim for because like that's a hot ticket. If you get killed for your faith, that's straight up to heaven, right? And you've got to understand that, like, all you got to do is go look at a medieval hell fresco. See who's in hell. Like, see who's in the hell mouth. See who's in hell.

And it's always guys who have crowns on their heads. It's always guys who have papal tiaras or bishops tiaras, which is what they're called. Tehrer. Yeah, it's not necessarily like a mitre. It's a tiara. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's real cute. And so there is this understanding that these incredibly wealthy and powerful people are more likely to end up in hell.

Right. Because worldly power is corrupting. They get these things through violence. It is very often thought that people who are within the ranks of the church are actually hypocrites. So this is a kind of sweet deal. So it's like, yeah, if you really believe this stuff, like really believe it, even if you get killed, you're going to be fine. Yeah. The one-way tickets there.

Now, you talk about him coming back, right? And this is obviously a turning point in the history. And we are now galloping a little bit more. towards the inevitable shutdown of his life. But you pinpointed 1170. Yeah. But the king's not in England. No.

I mean, why was the king being in England? Especially when he has all this territory that you have talked about. Now, tell me what that actually means in terms of why he's away and how he's controlling England in this particular moment. And also, if Thomas comes back because Henry's away. or... Yeah, it seems like part of what is happening here is that Thomas is like, King's not here.

Like, and you know what that means? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Am I right? And so he's like, well, I'm going to come back into the country when it's not going to provoke a direct confrontation with Henry. I see. Henry is in Normandy.

Lovely. Lovely for him. Nice place, yeah. And this is because, you know, he's got all sorts of stuff to deal with, right? Like, he's constantly beefing with the French king. Uh-huh. He's got a lot of lands to administer.

And also Castle Normandy is very nice. Yes, you get to film there all the time. I don't. I get sent to Yorkshire. Well, look. We'll stew. We'll cook something up. We're going to cook something up.

Look, listen to me. But anyway, he's there and he's having a lovely time, yes. And he's having a really wonderful time. And this is kind of not unusual. You've got to understand that when English kings write anything at the time, if you make a big decree, if you write a little letter. One of the first things they have at the top, it's something called an oranga. There you go.

We're getting real nercy. This is like real medieval people hours. Okay, go amazing. I love it. I love it. So what you do is you declare all your titles up front. Yeah, yeah. And so it always says, the first thing it will always say is Rexanglorum, king of England, obviously.

And the next thing it will say is at Dux Normanorum and the Duke of Normandy. And then at this point in time, he's like, and Ducks Aquitonorum and things like that. And it just keeps going on and on and on. So you got to understand that being the Duke of the Duke of. Normandy is almost as important to these guys as being the King of England. They control more land in France at this point in time than they do in England. I mean, it's a big, it's bigger. It's bigger than England.

And it's incredibly wealthy. It's where they're getting a lot of money from. So he's just got to be down there quite often so that he can really rile up King Louis. It's very important. Presence is key, right? You need to be there or else you could lose the territory. We call it parapetiticism. Always.

Obviously. It's like, I'm down the pub. I'm talking about parapeticism. I think that was my first word as a child. I remember. It's a wonder that you didn't become a medievalist. I can't believe it. Oh, yeah.

I used to. Yeah. Anyway, look, that's for another day. So, like, he is down there in Normandy and he's having Christmas court. Literally. It's literally December. Yeah. Yeah.

Oh, Christmas. Christmas court. So we're talking about, we're setting it up. And, like, down there, really nice little castle. You've got like these great tapestries on all. the walls. We got huge fires. He's just like popping it out. And he's just partying. Cozy.

Like that's what you're supposed to do. Like, yeah. If you're going to be a king, you might as well. And I can't stress how much, like, in the medieval period, Christmas, that's like a month. It begins, like, the first day of Christmas is December 25th, guys. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then it goes from there. And then you got to do all 12 days. That would make January so much more bearable. It really does. And then you wouldn't have to do your tax turn. They wouldn't make you do your tax turn then. No, they would never. They would never. Because they're like, no, babe. It's like, you've got, you've

got to keep going until candlemas. That's in February. I love candle. The word candlemas. So, like, so he's like set up and here's the thing. He's kind of like trying to just have a nice time, right? He's got these tensions with the French king. And then word comes to him that Thomas is back in England and he's like this guy. Guess who's back? And he's like, this is not the headache I need right now. Yeah. Right? I'm trying to like, I am trying to, A, have a nice time at Christmas. Yes. B, I'm here to annoy the French king. Yeah, I'm not in England mode right now. No, no, no, no. And so, like, don't remind me about England. I'm being a fancy lad.

So then comparing and contrast with Canterbury. Canterbury is a very important place. Yeah. I mean, it's still a very important place. Like, let's be so for real. But it is the seat of church power. And they're having a very different kind of Christmas, right? You know, like, don't get me wrong.

They are, they do still have big parties and things like that. It's just that, like, you're going to be more austere because you're the church and it's not going to look particularly, you know, festive. As fancy. In the same way. Now, Canterbury is still very important because it's the seat of the church, but it's not as important as it is now or will subsequently become after the...

Because of this. You know, so, but basically, you've got to also understand that one of the things that exists at the cathedral at that point in time is a huge community of monks. Okay. Oh, okay. Henry, the 8th, will take care of all of that. And he also will destroy Thomas Beckett's tomb. But, you know, we've got, like, a huge complex of monasteries.

So, like, here we go. We got Thomas, and he is just, like, pious maxing. Like that. Yeah. And he's just like, he's given it the big one. And so that's what's going on. So we have these two guys, right? Like, and everyone's kind of, like, excited to see Thomas back.

They're like, oh, wow. Like, look, you know, he's back. Like, we're going to get some action around here. That's kind of cool. And Henry's Furious. and the thing about the courts in general is there's just like a lot of guys around. Yeah, there's just guys around in the area. There's hot nights.

Hot nights in your area. All right? Like, that's what's going on. That's what's going on at this point in time. And so there is always just a lot of dudes around. And knights are going to come to court a lot of the time, more specifically, when they are not the most important member of their own family. Oh. Because if you're the most important member of your own family, your people have their own castle.

So you're there. So you're there, right? So if you're number one son, number one son is going to inherit all the land under the system of primogeniture, which the Normans bring in. So you're going to inherit the castle in Essex or whatever. Second son, probably going to join the church. And then, you know, maybe he's hanging out at Canterbury now. Who knows? Third son.

I'm free, guys. So, like, and if you're from one of the fancier families, you can then, like, maybe make your way to court, right? So one of the things that you're doing when you're at court, right, A, is you're living a comparatively nice life, which you wouldn't be able to do at home because there isn't enough land for you. But you're also trying to make a name for yourself. Yep. Right? And so what you want to do is come to the attention of the king for a big heroic deed. Yeah.

Oh, right. I'm seeing where this is going now. And now, allegedly, we have the phrase, you know the phrase. Something like, oh, okay, I'm going to butcher this, but you can correct me? Something like, can somebody rid me of this damn monk or something? Oh, I love that. It's who will rid me of this meddlesome priest? That one, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's really good. It's really good. Like, this is alleged. Yes. Alleged. And probably not. Yeah, it's like, it's very like, I want pictures of Spider-Man, you know, or like whatever. You know, so he's like, he's just giving it the big one. And as far as he is concerned, he's just blowing off some steam.

Yeah. He's blown off some steam like around his head. Like, ugh. And, you know, like, and he's basically like, I hope something that happens to him, you know. But that isn't necessarily a call to action, except for a couple of dudes. Good two. The 29th of December. Listen, no one is saying that knights are the smartest guys, right?

Okay. Like, all of these boys have CTE, right? They're just like. C.T. You know, when you get hit in the head all the time. Oh, right? I'm not that kind of a doctor. Awesome.

So, you know, like, they're costly on horseback. They're getting hit in the head all the time while wearing a helmet. I am not saying that these guys... No, no. Yes, I understand. You're not putting out a new theory. Great. So, you know, they're at Christmas Court, and they're like, guys...

Here's an opportunity. I have a plan. Mm-hmm. And so, like, they get on their little ship. They sail over to England. and they arrive at Canterbury on the 29th of December. Now, again, let us recall how Christmas works. This is the fourth day of Christmas.

Yeah. So it is, what is it? Five golden. Four, it's four calling birds. Do they have four calling birds? How many nights are there? They are the four calling birds. Oh, oh, that's what's up.

Okay, that's what's up, right? So they show up. And the thing about this is, people are like, oh, this is a huge surprise, and they just rush in and killed Thomas. I feel, and the generalized position of most medieval historians is like he saw this coming. That Thomas did.

That Thomas did, right? And knew he was about to be martyred? Yeah, most likely. Okay, okay. So he is in the cathedral itself at the time. Right. And in run these four nights, and they're like, oh, you're a little bitch.

like I can't believe you don't love the king. This is verbatim, right? This is where they're like, says, here you're a little bitch. What do you got to say about that? What do you say to that? And Thomas is like, this is literally a cathedral. Sir?

Sir? Sir? But this is one of those things where the sanctity of this space is that you do not enter in this way, right? We are breaking social norms by doing those. 100%. You're not even supposed to be coming into the church with weapons.

Armed, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, listen to me. Also, you know that when you go into a church, right, people are able to claim sanctuary. Yes. Even if they're a criminal, even if they've done something terrible, they're allowed to go into a church. And essentially what's going to happen with that is a priest is going to be like, babe. Yeah.

I don't have time for this. Like, let me explain something to you. And then they're going to explain that you've actually got to go give yourself up or you'll never go to heaven. Right. But it is theoretically possible. The monks are like, Thomas, don't do it. Oh, babe.

No, like, come on. like run back into the monastery with us. We will protect you. Thomas was like, I'm not going anywhere. Do you see what they just said to me in my own house? I don't, like, I'm not the jerk here, right? So he is like refusing to leave. And the knights just lose it.

Like they just lose their little minds. And they stab them up. They stab them right up. And most importantly, end up cutting the top off his head. Like a little hat. And the brains, well, somebody says the brain spill. right? Yeah, and it's like, it is gory. I mean, medieval people love it. They're like

there's blood everywhere. Like, the head is off the top and they collect all of the blood because that's what medieval people like. They're collecting all this immediately. They're like, rags. Yeah, they're like, we've got to like get all of this stuff up. And the knights are kind of like

oh Oh, oh. Nobody even officially sent us here. They're like that. This is escalated quickly. I don't really know what to do, right? They run off. The monks, meanwhile, are like, oh, our beloved Archbishop, who is, like, so, so real and good. And one of the big things that happens when they're dealing with his body is they discover that underneath all of his rich, aristocratic archbishop

robes, because you've got to dress the part, right? Yeah. He's wearing a hair shirt. Of course he is. Yeah, right? And it's like, and so he's like, oh, actually, I mean, I have to do it because of the, but I am so. Penitential. And, yeah. Babe, I eat the. You know, I eat vegan, I wear the hair shirt, like, and everyone is like, oh, bro, bro, is this a martyr? This looks very like a martyr. And so, like, basically immediately. Really quickly, right? Really quick.

And because, like, obviously, they're like a quick go tell the Pope. They're running off to Rome. And this is just like 100% we've got a saint on our hands. There is nothing you can do at this point in time. They push the same button. They really, and this is the thing is that. I argue there's no way that Henry knew about this. Because Henry would know that.

Sure. Henry would know that. He doesn't want to turn this guy into a scene. Well, and this is the pivotal point. You have been setting this up the whole way through this episode that Henry is actually quite smart. He is power-focused. He knows strategically what he has to do.

The strategy doesn't always work out, but he knows what he has to do to put those pillars of power in place. And one of those things would be to, to, if you are that way, if you are minded in that way, one of the things to do would be to placate the church rather than put it into supplication because that will make a pushback, make it start to, you know Rome is going to push back. And so I agree with you. I hadn't even really thought about it before whether or not he had actually known about this as a, as an instruction, or he had meant it as an instruction. But I think you're absolutely right. You're an expert,

so you would be. But it is, it is. it is important to put that in, I think, number one. And then number two, to know the reason that it has to be that is because it ruins his whole plan. This, the killing of his old friend and archbishop now, or former archbishop now because he's dead, ruins his plans to take power in the way that he had. This is what ends his plan.

So he would never have done that knowingly. He is just too smart. And he would know that this was going to happen. But on the other hand, my boy pivots real fast. He's like, Oh, wow. Because he knows. Yeah.

He knows that this is like, he's in too deep. And so one of the first things that he does is he's like, dear Mr. Pope, I'm so sorry. I actually love your gowns. Yeah, it's like I thought, ooh, okay. Right? So, and like the wheels are in motion. He becomes a full-fledged saint within three years. That is wild.

Yeah, yeah. Because, you know, especially around this point in time, the church is really cracking down on who can become saints. It used to be like, oh, we've got our local guy, Jeff. And everyone's like, oh, yeah, we love Jeff, St. Jeff. Like, you know, the— Jeff of the Stones. Yeah, like, and then the church is like, whatever it takes, baby. But again, we've got centralized power now.

So finally, they're like, no, you have to go through these particular processes and procedures. You've got to show miracles. The monks are all like, oh, bra. I was so hungover, but then I went into the church where Thomas was, and then I wasn't hungover. anymore and the church is like miracle. Did you hear that? Because they're diluting his blood as well. They are putting blood, his blood into water and people are either putting it on themselves or some people are drinking it. Yeah, people are drinking it. People are kissing the skull cap. Oh yeah, the cut off skull cap. Yeah. The tomb that that Henry the 8th destroyed. God, I hate that man. It was incredibly cool and it had this two-layered system

where the body was kind of in a stone sarcophagus up top and there was a bit underneath that you could go lay under the body and be like, oh, Thomas, please be thinking of me so that you could kind of like be in proximity to the saintliness. Yeah, and like the best chance possible of getting a miracle. Intervention, yeah, yeah. So like absolutely incredible stuff. So Henry sees this and he's like, okay, what we are going to do

is we're going to get out ahead of this and he's going to be like, actually, I loved my boy Thomas. Like, it's crazy. Look at all the pictures on my Instagram with us together. And he's just like bringing him back and he's like RIP, you know, like this is 100%. His memory reel is going off now. And pilgrims are coming from all over in order to, as you've already mentioned, get hold of this blood. Right?

So this is like, people love relics. The thing about relics is the idea of a relic is it's more likely that you're going to get divine intervention if you're in contact with a relic because the saints are already in proximity with God. Sure. Right? And God's got a lot on his plate. Yeah. God love him. He has, he's busy. And so it might be easier to get hold of a saint who are standing next to God and they can be like, oh, God. I've got this one. Like, can you, could you just like do my boy real quickly, right? And so essentially one way of thinking about relics is it's thought that it gives you a direct. connection to that saint who's in heaven. Yeah.

So if you're like drinking the blood, if you're touching the skull cap, if you're laying underneath the body. You might as well be in heaven whispering in his ear. A hundred percent, right? So people start coming from all over Europe in order to be in communion with these relics. Yeah? Yeah. And Henry sees an opportunity.

Because it's not just ordinary people. Ordinary people do come. And, you know, ordinary people in the Middle Ages, they do travel a lot specifically on pilgrimage. Yes. because like your landlord can't tell you you can't go on pilgrimage. Yes. So it's like one of the only things they can't do. Yeah, exactly.

And it's like everybody likes traveling. They like to getaways and they're like, England. Going to England. There's some blood on a floor somewhere in Canterbury. You heard it. I mean, yeah, because like I'm just pretty adventurous. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I'm going to England.

Well traveled. Yeah, exactly. And so Henry's like, listen, I am also going to really promote this because he immediately starts seeing pound signs. his head, right? And he's like, oh, people are coming to Canterbury, is it? He rebuilds the castle at Dover in some style, because that is like one of the big places that people come. And so if you are a king or a nobleman and you want to go to Canterbury, you're going to go and you're going to stop at Dover first. And he's like, and I've got like my own relics and you can come stay here. And so it

ends up actually elevating Henry's profile as well, because he's. He's contrite, and he's saying, look, you know, I will help you on your way to Canterbury. Yeah, like, and also, because you're coming to Canterbury, right? Like, you're, you're going to come to. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, everybody's coming to Canterbury. Like, and so it ends up putting England on the map more than it was previously. Right.

Because they've got their own little bona fide saint. This is a destination now. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. So as a finishing point then, and as a place to kind of exit out of this, do you think this murder sets. the roadmap for what's to come, it seems to me that it does, what's to come over the next two or three, four, five hundred years in terms of the relationship between the church and

the state. Is that one of the conclusions that we can take from this particular history? Oh, absolutely. And I mean, like, God bless those little knights. This is the exact opposite of what they wanted. And four people, it's only, it's mad, isn't it? It's only four men that's only four men that did that. Yeah. And it basically ossifies the position of the church as more powerful in effect because it backs Henry into a corner. He's done the best that he can with it. He manages to turn it into a little destination. He's going to make some money off of it. But he has to back down from everything that he's attempting to do in terms of the church. And also it's kind of a warning to other kings as well.

They're like, ah, well, you saw what happened with Henry. Right? So it really gives the church a very powerful position in the end, from which it is impossible to back down. Henry does the best he can with it, yeah? But that's like trying to, you know, this is a silver lining. You can't put the genie bucket. No, you can.

You can. And so it just is basically saying that the church is going to win these things, and the church is correct. Because say what you will, it doesn't matter how annoying an archbishop is, you probably shouldn't murder them in their cathedral. And on that note, that's a lesson for you all to take into everyday life.

So I don't know about you, but like that is a good start to our partnership over the next month on After Dark, right? Oh, I believe so. I'm so excited to be here. I've got lots more dead people to gossip about. The sexual tension has just been unbearable.

They'll be talking about it for eons. Thank you for watching After Dark and listening to After Dark. If you don't know, we also have a YouTube channel. You can go and find us on YouTube now where you can watch along as well as listen to wherever you're getting your podcasts. One thing which we never do is tell you where to find us. You can find me at Anthony Delaney History on Instagram. Where can they find you, Eleanor? Dr. Eleanor Yonaga at Instagram.

So there you are. That's where you can find us. We will have more medieval mischief for you in the coming episode. Stay tuned for those. Thank you so much, Eleanor. I'm so glad that you're with us. And until next time, Happy listening.