After Dark: Myths, Misdeeds & the Paranormal - The Real Dick Turpin

Episode Date: January 21, 2024

"Your money or your life!"Those are the immortal words ascribed to this famous outlaw. Terror of the rich. Hero to the poor. Charmer of ladies. The galloping figure on Black Bess. The imagery surrounding him is iconic... but who was the real Dick Turpin? Anthony and Maddy discuss his story in today's episode.Edited and produced by Freddy Chick. Senior Producer is Charlotte Long.Discover the past with exclusive history documentaries and ad-free podcasts presented by world-renowned historians from History Hit. Watch them on your smart TV or on the go with your mobile device. Get 50% off your first 3 months with code AFTERDARK sign up now for your 14-day free trial http://access.historyhit.com/checkout/subscribe/purchase?code=afterdark&plan=monthlyYou can take part in our listener survey here.

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The podcast that takes you deep inside the greatest secret missions of all time. Submit me out of the dark, disappear, bin Laden. You'll meet the people who live life undercover. What do they know? What are their skills? And what would you do in their position? Vengeance felt good. Seeing these people pay for what they'd done felt righteous.

True Spies from Spyscape Studios. Wherever you get your podcasts. November 1734. A winter chill whistles through the Royal Forest of Epping in Essex. Between the prison of trees, about six or so deer-stealers turned housebreakers, led by a local blacksmith, Samuel Gregory, wait silent and strategically spread across the forest floor. Gregory's gang picked their steps carefully as they went. Even the slightest noise could betray them.

Gregory had lately been rescued from the pillory by his brothers in arms, and he was not, he was resolved, about to be captured again that night. Among his number, as they crept ever closer to the isolated home of the widow Shelley, was one Mr Richard Turpin. A butcher by trade and native of these parts, Turpin was a savvy addition to this group of petty scoundrels. Then, in an explosion of shattering wood and violent threats, Widow Shelley was, so the story goes,

bound and tortured by Gregory, Turpin and the others. They wished to know where she kept her money. Once they had that, they vowed they would leave her be. But Widow Shelley refused to speak. That was, apparently, until the notorious Dick Turpin had a diabolical idea. Turpin instructed his pack of thieves to take the widow, raise her from her seat and carry her across the room, giving instructions that she was to be placed in the large open fireplace above the licking flames. Well, needless to say, the widow Shelley soon offered up the location of her vault, and this set of dishonourable thieves fled with the princely sum of £400, just shy of £50,000 or $65,000 today.

In the decades following his eventual death, the ghost of Dick Turpin on horseback was reportedly seen galloping down Trapp's Hill, Loughton, past the old widow's house in supposed repentance, the spectre of Widow Shelley clawing at his back. But listener, beware. Should you see this terrifying spectral sight on Trapp's Hill, it is said to foretell the arrival of a catastrophic disaster. Hello and welcome to After Dark Myths, Misdeeds and the Paranormal. I'm Dr. Maddy Pelling. And I'm Dr. Anthony Delaney.

And today we're going back in time to the 1730s and the story of Dick Turpin. Anthony, Dick Turpin is one of those characters that looms large in cultural imagination. He's reimagined again and again. He's a hero of the Victorian Gothic. He is someone who's much beloved by the 1980s new romantics. There's a disconnect, isn't there, between the man, the myth, the legend. I guess we're going to talk about that. But what does he mean to you? It's interesting that you started that by calling him a character. And I think that's very apt, because what has happened, as you were describing there, is there are two or actually probably several different Dick Turpins. And what we're trying to do today is get to the bottom of who the real Dick Turpin was

and what is this legend this myth that has grown up around him and it's yes it's very specific to the 1730s but that grows and grows over the decades and over the centuries that that we have come to know him today I think as an 18th century historian I sort of think of him as existing somewhere else in a different realm. He's sort of not part of the world that I go back to so much and that I write about, that I research and I spend a lot of time in. So I'm kind of interested to put him into that context again. The 1730s are quite an interesting time in the 18th century in Britain. Can you give us a little bit of context of what's happening? George II is on the throne, is that right? He is, and his wife, Caroline of Ansbach, is influencing quite significantly with her

political links to the first ever Prime Minister, Robert Walpole. We also have the formation of the Society for the Reformation of Manners. Well well that was a couple of centuries previously actually but they're really talking about the moral life of england at this time and they're trying to regulate this what they see as the disintegration of english society due to luke's morals and that's something that is gonna play a part in the story of dick turpin right that he's the sort of antithesis of this. He's a highwayman. He's a criminal. He's someone who exists on the periphery of 18th century society

and doesn't conform to these strictures in terms of morality, in terms of how you're meant to behave and specifically how you're meant to present yourself as a gentleman as well, I guess. Yeah, it's interesting what you're talking about, that idea of a gentleman in the 18th century is because he doesn't meet that mark at all.

That inference of gentlemanliness comes later, as we will see. But there is nobody in the 18th century who would have mistaken Dick Turpin for a gentleman. So it'll be interesting to see how that myth gets layered on top of him. This is also the time, just looking a little bit more broadly, where Chief Tomicici has been in Britain and he has been received by George II, who we spoke about at the outset. And he signed over the area of modern day Savannah, Georgia, to the British. So there is, we have this idea of what's going on in the 1730s at home in Britain, and then in the wider world and how Britain is interfering in many ways in that wider world at this time. So it's a very tumultuous time.

There's lots of shifting, lots of changing going on. But for me, this is one of the 1720s, 1730s are where I often feel most comfortable looking at. These are my sweet spots historically. I prefer a later 18th century, it has to be said. But it's important to remember as well, in the 1730s, that we're still dealing with the aftermath of the South Sea collapse, which is a bubble of financial speculation around the South Sea Company that ends in financial ruin. It's the first kind of financial collapse in Britain, and it has these global effects. And that kind of rocks the foundations a little bit, I think, of how people understand Britain and understand themselves in it. So there's plenty going on in terms of empire, there's plenty going on in terms of politics. And as you say, Caroline, George II's wife and queen,

she is quite a sort of interfering figure in politics. We have the first British Prime Minister in power. There's a sense, I suppose, of a new world emerging. We've had a little bit of chaos. It's turbulent, but there's new light ahead, I think it's fair to say. Yeah, there's definitely this sense of people, of individuals, of nations finding their feet. So it's know, when you think of Dick Turpin, what are the thoughts that come to your mind? Paint the picture of who you would experience, who you'd expect Dick Turpin to be when you talk about him. Okay, so we know he's a highwayman, amongst other things, I'm guessing, but that's the enduring image of him. I can't see him in my mind without seeing him on horseback. him. I can't see him in my mind without seeing him on horseback. I'm thinking a billowing cloak.

I'm thinking some kind of mask, a tricorn hat, very Poldark. I'm thinking quite young. I'm thinking a little bit handsome. He is, we've talked about this already, but a sort of cultural figure. He's a character. He's someone who's a little bit risky. I think about, you know, the catchphrase, your money or your life, which I'm sure you're going to tell me he never uttered those words or never uttered those exact words. We have this sense of him. He has his lines, he has his outfit, he has his costume, he has his trusty horse accompanying him. Are you going to just completely dismantle this for me and tell me none of these things are true? I mean, essentially, essentially, it's interesting because that horse becomes part of the lore and then the horse some listeners may know is black bess apparently and black bess was was who this steed that carried

dick turpin but actually when you start to pick into these things we'll see that there's a slightly different reality going on in the background so my question is when does this shift start why are we handed down this vision of dick turpin as a sub character it starts about 100 years after his foray into the criminal life it starts about 100 years later in 1834 with the publication of will Ainsworth's, actually sometimes he goes by Harrison Ainsworth because his full name is William Harrison Ainsworth. He publishes a novel called Rockwood and that laid all of the foundations for what we understand as Dick Turpin today, which is this dashing highwayman, someone who's really gallant and he's outwitting corrupt

authorities. There's almost like a Robin Hood element to him and he he out he's out witting corrupt authorities there's almost like a robin hood element to him and he's as you say this good-looking man who's yeah and we're rooting for him he's the hero right and that all the all the ladies in the carriages are swooning and handing over their jewels and and gold coins to him you know and that that image is is really enjoying it's interesting to me that it comes from ainsworth so i love love William Harris and Ainsworth. I don't know if you've ever read any of his novels. He was really prolific. I think he wrote like,

I mean, don't quote me on this, but many, like maybe 30 plus historical novels. Yes, he was turning it out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he loves, he loves an 18th century criminal. So the other person

that he novelizes is Jack Shepard, who's another highwayman and criminal who famously escapes multiple times i can't remember how many times from newgate prison but ainsworth kind of you know takes this and plays with it i if you listeners if you haven't ever picked up an ainsworth novel do so they are great fun they're beautifully illustrated and they're sort of a forerunner of dickens in a lot of ways i think i mean they maybe don't have the literary quality but they have that sort of

immersive world and he's always even though he's writing in the 1830s he's always looking back to the 18th century or sometimes even earlier he writes novels about lady jane gray and the tower of london and all that but there's this he gives us i think that 18th century world that we love to imagine that's populated by highwaymen and pirates well if he does and he does then he's obscuring some of the more realistic facts because we are left so profound was his work and so much did he produce that we're left with his version of events which which is, of course, novel, which is a novel, which is fiction and is not necessarily based on any of the facts. So let's look at some of the facts that we have regarding Richard Turpin. And that is that he was born in the best month to

be born, which is September 1705. Why is that the best month, Anthony? Because I was born in September too. Not in 1705, mind. And he was the fifth of six children. So this is a relatively big family. His father was named John and his mother was Mary Elizabeth Parmenter. Now, his father was a publican, but had been a butcher. And that's the route that Turpin initially took. He trained as a butcher and he did an apprenticeship and that was the route his life was going to take. And he married in 1725. He married Betty Millington. She was a maidservant. Now, the interesting thing about Betty's status there is it also gives us a link to his status, which as a butcher, a butcher actually could have been quite an affluent

position depending on where you are. If you're, especially in London, there's actually quite a good living to be made in some cases. But for the Turpins, it seems that it, by the fact that he's marrying a maidservant, it does seem like they are more along the lines of the working poor, that it's living month to month, day to day, week to week sometimes. So you can see that there's a world of poverty in which maybe not acute poverty, but poverty nonetheless that's lingering over some of this story in the first part of his life. What's striking me about what you're saying here, Anthony, is that this is quite a normal start in life. He is not necessarily affluent. He's not living in dire poverty. His father comes from a respectable trade or two trades, you know,

being a butcher and then a publican. I suppose if his father's a publican, he's growing up in a world in which he's seeing lots of different kinds of people pass through that space pass through the tavern or the inn that his father's running and i wonder if that has an early effect on him in terms of wishing for more than he has feeling a pull to go elsewhere to travel to get out of that circumstance and i wonder if when he marries Betty, there's a feeling of being restricted in some way. I'm putting this onto him, but I just, I wonder from what we know about him, we know, even with all the mythology stripped away, that he is going to, his effect in the world is going to be felt very widely. And this feels like quite a small and ordinary start.

very widely. And this feels like quite a small and ordinary start. I agree with you. And I disagree with you in that I love that idea of him growing up in a, in the pub as being formative. I think it would have been, I'll come back to that in just a second. I'm not convinced that he would have had aspirations beyond Essex had his life panned out any differently other than him being a butcher. I think he would have been relatively content to stay there. I think that waywardness and that travel lust or wanderlust, whatever you want to call it, might be a little bit part of the romanticization that happens in the 19th century as opposed to what he would have experienced himself in the 1730s. That's not to say that he didn't travel because he absolutely did. And we'll get

to the reasoning behind that in a little while. But something has happened. And I think you're right. I think the pub might have been the locus for this. Something has happened where he has fallen in with this crowd and Gregory's gang, basically. And it's worth bearing in mind that Turpin's not the leader here. He is just one of the gang. He's not calling the shots. He just goes along with Gregory, whatever Gregory says goes. Gregory is the leader here. So I think that also starts to unpick some of the Turpin lore straight from the beginning. He's not this leader. He's not this charismatic leader of men. He's just essentially a petty criminal. And in the opening, we see that he's going to

Widow Shelley's house, who's, you know, a vulnerable older woman who lives in isolation in essentially the countryside. And these are the types of people initially that he's targeting, along with Gregory's gang. So this isn't some, you know, moral quest that he's on. He's not stealing from the rich and giving to the poor he is he's targeting along with gregory as i say he's targeting specific people who they view to be vulnerable and i mean i said in the story at the beginning that he took 400 pounds or they took 400 pounds from that specific theft but there are some accounts that say it was little more than three pounds so it's you know again

what's part of history and what's part of the folklore but whether she had three or whether she had 400 pounds they were going to rob her because that's what they were doing so it's not this huge organized thing he's not a dreamer he's not a he's not a dashing figure he is a criminal what's also interesting about his targeting of the widow living alone who's vulnerable is that this crime isn't taking place on the road we think of him primarily as a highwayman and this is taking place in a domestic space he's invaded i think as well that i mean there's so much brutality in the way that he tries to put her on the fire. He does put her on the fire. It's very dark. It's very scary. It's very violent. This isn't the figure that we necessarily know. Tell me some more about the gang that he's part of

and how his life with them unfolds and how he becomes this notorious criminal. He finds himself with Gregory's gang, as I say. That's actually relatively short-lived, because as soon as they break into Widow Shelley's house, there is a manhunt, essentially, which brings me to the next part of the story. Dick Turpin and his gang were wanted men. Soon, one by one, his accomplices were rounded up and brought to justice for a spate of crimes, including their violence towards and theft of the widow Shelley. Turpin, however, somehow managed to evade capture. While hiding out in Epping Forest, Turpin then fell in with another man, Thomas Rowden. Together, the pair undertook several rather boring highway robberies, gathering mere guineas for their troubles. In time, Turpin went on to work with the infamous

criminal Tom King in a similar line of work, but in early 1737, King was killed as a result of a scuffle over a stolen horse. There are some who claimed that it was Turpin himself who fired the fatal shot. Alone now, Turpin returned to Epping Forest to take cover. He had become so notorious, however, that on the 4th of May he was identified by a servant, Thomas Morris. Morris was feeling particularly heroic on that day in May and wished to claim the £100 reward offered for Turpin's capture. So he tried to apprehend him. But Turpin was slippery and once again escaped. Before he ran, however, he made sure to shoot and kill Thomas Morris.

It was at this point that Dick Turpin decided to escape to Yorkshire. Once there, he changed his name to John Parman or Palmer, but his penchant for crime went with him. He hadn't been in Yorkshire long when he was taken up for the very daring crime of killing a rooster. Imprisoned now, John Palmer wrote to his brother-in-law asking for help, but in an extraordinary and unclear turn of look, his writing was recognised as that of none other than the notorious criminal Dick Turpins. His story regarding his alter ego unravelled now and his identity was quickly revealed.

It was thus discovered that no longer content with Fowl alone, Turpin had also recently stolen a horse and a foal belonging to a man named Thomas Creasy. He would be tried for this crime. And so, at the Assizes holding at the Castle of York, John Palmer, alias Palmer, alias Richard Turpin, was indicted for stealing a black mare and a foal at Welton in the County of York. When the judge was readying to pass sentence, the prisoner was asked why a sentence of death should not be pronounced against him. Turpin replied,

It is very hard upon me, my lord, because I was not prepared for my defence. Turpin, however, was found guilty and sentenced to hang. We'll see you next time. Breakfast wrap, biscuit or English muffin sandwiches, small seasoned potatoes or small hot coffee. Choose two for $4 at Wendy's. Available for a limited time at participating Wendy's in Canada. Taxes extra. Catherine of Aragon.

Anne Boleyn. Jane Seymour. Anne of Cleves. Catherine Howard. Catherine Parr. Six wives, six lives. I'm Professor Susanna Lipscomb, and this month on Not Just the Tudors, I'm joined by a host of experts to tell the stories of the six queens of Henry VIII,

who shaped and changed England forever. Subscribe to and follow Not Just the Tudors from History Hit, wherever you get your podcasts. I love that it was handwriting that caught him out. That he's caught for killing a rooster imprisoned in York and that it's the handwriting. I think I'd read somewhere that it was his old teacher back home where his brother lived who saw it and thought, I know that handwriting, whether that's true or not. I can't believe that's true, but I've read that too.

And that is part of that story. I wonder if that's part of that fanciful myth making as well. I don't know. But that that was definitely around in this in the 18th century. That was certainly contemporaneous, whether whether it happened or not is unclear. What is occurring to me, as you were speaking, and as you were telling us that part of the story is just how complicated his capture becomes and the way that his life falls apart and the way that he is caught out it's so hard to unpick and decipher who did what how is he actually identified how is he actually caught also the fact that he's in york is interesting to me that he begins his life of

crime in essex and ends it in york And we know that one of the big myths about him is to do with Black Bess and that he rides all night from somewhere close to London, all the way to York in order to hang out. I think it's with the mayor of York or something, supposedly. And when the next day he's wanted for this crime, he says, I have an alibi. Of course, I couldn't possibly have committed this crime. I think it's a murder that he's wanted for this crime he says i have an alibi of course i couldn't possibly have have committed this crime i think it's a murder that he's wanted for in london because i was in york and it's impossible to ride from london to york in one night whether that's true i mean it's very unlikely to actually have well any mary pelling basis

let's get into some of those facts or well, supposed facts in a little segment I have decided to call Turpin true or tripe. Now, listeners, Maddie has not heard cue music for cheesy game show. Maddie has not heard or seen these questions. I am going to set up with a question as to whether or not something Turpin has done, apparently. And you need to tell me whether you think that's true or tripe. Now, bear in mind that some of what you might think is tripe is kind of based in truth. So some of these might be a little bit unclear. So play along at home. See if you can figure out which is true and which is tripe. Okay, five questions. First

question is this. Dick Turpin made a concerted effort to steal from the rich true or tripe maddie i've given you a clue about this one a tripe that is absolute tripe he just stole from whoever he wants to and one of the reasons we know this is he's stealing chickens that said the the mare and the foal that he steals that is that those are you know indication of status and wealth. But generally speaking, he's stealing guineas on the road. It's quite, when you think about it, quite pathetic. It's not this accomplished, savvy, charismatic highwayman.

It's just a petty criminal. So that one is absolutely tripe. Right, question number two. Oh yeah, this one's interesting. Turpin evaded capture for so long because he hid out in the Netherlands for a period of time. True or tripe? Ooh, I'm going to say tripe. I think he seems like someone

who is involved in crime at local levels very much in England. I can't see him going to the Netherlands. I'm going to say tripe. So there is a period between 1735 and 1737 where he disappears slightly and we don't really know what happens. Now, as historians, we know that it's not all that strange for somebody of the working class to disappear from the archive for two years. In fact, that's not that long a span for somebody to disappear from. It was later suggested that there were contemporary reports from the 1730s that he had escaped to the Netherlands. So that's why he was the only member

of the gang that had not been caught. Now, I tend to agree with you, though. I don't think he was in the Netherlands. I don't know where he was. Nobody really seems to. Epping Forest comes up again and again. But certainly in the 1730s, it's being reported in the press that he might be in the Netherlands simply because he had become so notorious, even by that point. So he was famous. He was making the news. They were already starting to build, you know, I spoke about the real myth building starting in the 19th century, but it was already starting in the 1730s. And I think, I personally think, I agree with you. I think that he, why would he have gone to the Netherlands? It doesn't, how would he have gone? I mean, he could have gone, he could have made his way. Of course he could, but it just doesn't ring true. And I think you're right about the localness being a big factor there. Next question. Question three, I think.

Oh, you know the answer to this one, too, because it's been in the story. But let's do it anyway. Dick Turpin never killed anyone. He just took their belongings. Tripe. That is tripe. He definitely killed one person because he definitely killed the manservant who tried to take him for the reward. And he possibly killed one of his fellow thieves. Those are the one slash two that we're very aware of. There may

have been others, but certainly he killed the manservant, which again, highlights this idea that he is not stealing from the rich and giving to the poor. He is attacking the poor when necessary and he is killing the poor if he feels he needs to do so to escape i think you said earlier as well that he potentially killed a fellow gang member at some point and you know i'm thinking of the old parlance there's no honor amongst thieves and i to me that absolutely rings true that the life that he's living on the edge of society and it's it's quite a sort of itinerant life and he seems to be moving from crime to crime and living hand to mouth it seems very plausible to me that that would fall apart in an instant and those those

alliances that were built in order to survive in that world in order to overpower other people to take advantage to commit those crimes that those those bonds between those particular men are not going to last the test of time or even a little bit of stress yeah he this is i think that's the perfect way to sum it up there is no honor amongst thieves in this particular case and in many cases i suppose but this is a real example of it's every man for themselves. They're together when it suits them. But he's, you know, we've heard how he's running between different criminal gangs or different individual criminals, and he's scraping this existence together. And what we don't know for sure, what is fascinating is why he turned to crime. We would imagine it may have

something got to do with poverty, but actually, was it? Was it just something that he enjoyed? Was it just something that he felt compelled to do? That's unclear in the archive. Okay, second last question, and we're getting through our Turpin quiz. The actual charges of horse theft against Turpin were invalid and just used to hang him for something. So the charges were invalid and they were just used to hang him. True or tripe? Oh, now, given the centrality of horses

to what we know about him and what we think we know about him, I'm going to say, I'm going to say tripe. I'm going to say that the horse theft, it has to be part of his story. It has to be. Well, this kind of is true-ish in that, yes, he did steal a horse from Thomas Creasy in Welton on the 1st of March, 1739. Well, that's what he was charged with, actually. charged with actually but the crime was actually committed in heckington in august 1738 so the charges are therefore rendered invalid because the charges are incorrect you know i think that speaks as well to the complicated sort of essence of his story and the fact that even when he's when he's been in prison

and then they discover who he is there's so much confusion around how to how to nail him for his crimes and the fact that he's in york when he's committed most of the crimes elsewhere especially in the south it's there seems so much sort of imprecision in getting to who he is what exactly he's done and it's that is fascinating that even when he's being tried for those crimes, even when he's being charged with certain offences, that they're not even correct. That it's so difficult to get to the truth of what he's done. But he had stolen horses.

He had stolen horses, absolutely. So that's why it's true-ish. But apparently, had he been a little bit more defence-minded, if he had admitted to doing to stealing the horses okay there probably would have been another trial but it certainly might have gotten him off the hook for that specific place because he wasn't in welton on the first of march 1739 so there may have been a way out for him there but he wasn't thinking that way okay final one and this one is one you've alluded to before. Did he, in fact, take the famous ride from London to York on Black Best, that overnight ride that you spoke of earlier?

I do think this is tripe. I want it to be true. I want it to be true. Now, I think I've read somewhere before that his horse was maybe not even called Black Best. That's true. That he, I mean, he clearly made the journey to York at some point. Did he do it on one moonlit night speeding along on Black Best? No, I'm going to say it's tripe.

It is tripe. The legend goes that Turpin undertook this journey from London to York to try and get to York before he was discovered for some of his crimes in London. Give himself an alibi, as you had rightly said earlier. That's a trip of some 200 miles, apparently. Apparently, he took that journey on Black Bess, who was his faithful mare. They did that. Black Bess didn't exist until the novel, Ainsworth's novel in the 19th century. And apparently he made that journey in less than 15 hours.

So that just could not physically have happened apparently it would have taken you'd need to be changing horse every 10 miles to achieve that and he just didn't do that obviously he wouldn't have had access to that many horses and it's just it just would have been physically impossible to do it during that time but what i find particularly fascinating about that and the legend that surrounds that is there are so many inns and pubs even now today on the route that he supposedly took that say well this is where dick turpin stopped on his midnight journey to wherever he was to york and he stopped here for this if he had stopped in all of those inns somebody has written it would have taken two days or something let alone 12 hours for him to get to where he's going

so basically that very famous story is no more than that just a story that is one great pop crawl though that is a particularly interesting pub crawl yeah but no it's it's so interesting that none of this is true, essentially. None of what we know of him is true. The other thing to say here, and this isn't necessarily connected to the sort of the sexy mythology around him, but just that his history gives us so much insight into travel in the 18th century. We think this is the era of the new turnpike roads where local communities, local authorities would raise money to maintain their portion of the road. And often, I think there was a town on the London to Bath Road that

was notorious because they had all fallen out in the town and no one would agree to pay for the maintenance of the road. And so if you're passing through, your carriage would be going along a relatively well-maintained smooth road and suddenly you'd go through this town and it would be a nightmare people's carriage wheels were falling off and it was you know a real disaster but you get this kind of this new network of roads and the country is connected in a new way and i wonder if that mythology around him racing up to york if that isn't part of this broader idea of the roads connecting places like never before and bringing with it, I suppose, an anxiety that people who are doing bad things in one place could escape to somewhere else and get away with it. And obviously in Turpin's case,

he doesn't get away with it, but I just wonder if that is part of that idea. And also love the idea that normally you'd have to change your horse multiple times in order to get to York. And Black Best becomes this sort of super, not superhuman, super animal who is as much a myth as Turpin himself. And that she's this kind of mythological beast that takes him all around committing crimes. Yeah, it's also really interesting if you consider what an actual highwayman would have had to do to commit some of these crimes. A horse is really necessary. And roads, as you have said, those two factors are present in some way in Turpin's story. Although there is a theory that he got to York by ferry, which is an interesting one. It's not as exciting.

It's not as exciting, just a placid ferry journey up to York. It's interesting because the highwaymen would have had to be aware of these roads and particularly some of these bad roads that you're talking about, where carriages would have had to slow down. They would have had to know who was traveling at what time. That's why these certain towns are an interesting port of call for highwaymen, because they're hearing who's travelling and when and who's travelling together. And often they would have had more than one of them on horseback. So somebody would have come out in front of the horse-drawn carriage, stopped them in their tracks,

and then another highwayman would have gone to the window of the carriage and demanded the takings. There could have been other people as well who were stationed behind the carriage and who were circling around. So you're talking about gangs of highwaymen here, actually, in reality, more than you're talking about this lone individual, because actually, the practicalities of doing it wouldn't really have allowed one person to do it on their own. And Turpin has some of the ingredients. He has the horse, even if it's not Black Bess. He has this mythology surrounding the roads. But what we're seeing is that he's taking guineas from people who are just passing on country roads, essentially country roads in Essex, on country roads, essentially country roads in Essex, rather than this kind of triumphant,

daring do personality that we've come to know in the 19th century. I'd be interested to know why you think, you're good with this kind of thing usually actually, you'd be interested to know why you think, why in 1830 was it necessary for Ainsworth or whoever else to romanticise this figure of the high women, particularly Dick Turpin? Well, there's a huge interest in that period in looking back to the 18th century, and in particular, looking back to the turbulence of it. So the Gordon riots in 1780 get sort of romanticised and we see them appear, I think it's in Barnaby Rudge, Dickens' novel. And indeed, Jane Austen mentions them, they're appearing multiple writers of that period in their works I imagine I mean Ainsworth looks back at all kinds of historical figures but

he is particularly drawn to men in the 18th century who are ripe for romanticization who behave badly in some way so that's that's kind my, that's how I imagine he's attracted to Turpin. And it's interesting to me that Turpin has all these afterlives and all these reinventions because he meets quite a human and grim end, doesn't he? He does.

It's kind of his last final adventure. So let's hear a little bit about that. Now the following account comes straight to us from the 18th century and is retold here word for word as its intended Georgian audience would have read or heard it. The morning before Turpin's execution, he gave three pounds ten shillings amongst five men who were to follow the cart as mourners with hat hatbands and gloves, and gave gloves and hatbands to several persons more. He also left a gold ring and two pair of shoes and clogs to a married woman at Brough that he was acquainted with, though he at the same time acknowledged he had a wife and child of his own. He was carried in a cart to the place of execution

on Saturday, April 7th, 1739, with John Stead condemned also for horse stealing. He behaved himself with amazing assurance and bowed to the spectators as he passed. It was remarkable that as he mounted the ladder, his right leg trembled on which he stamped it down with undaunted courage, looked round about him, and after speaking near half an hour with the Topsman, threw himself off the ladder and expired in about five minutes. His corpse was brought back from the gallows about three in the afternoon and lodged at the Blue Boar in Castlegate till ten the next morning, when it was buried in a neat coffin in St. George's Churchyard, without Fishergate postured, with this inscription, J.P. 1739 R.T. aged 28. The grave was dug very deep, and the persons whom he appointed his mourners, as above mentioned, took all possible care to secure the body,

notwithstanding which, on Tuesday morning about three o'clock, some persons were discovered to be moving off the body which they had taken up. The mob, having got sent where it was carried to and suspecting it was to be anatomised, went to a garden in which it was deposited and brought away the body through the streets of the city. In a sort of triumph, almost naked, being only laid on a board, covered with some straw and carried it on four men's shoulders and buried it in the same grave having first filled the coffin with slacked lime so the line presumably is to hasten the decomposition of the body yeah is that right yeah to make it just not

worth stealing basically okay so that's that is interesting to me because that tells me that he is someone whose body might be worth stealing is that because he's famous is it because he's a criminal he's been executed as a criminal is this something they're particularly worried about when it comes to Dick Turpin? There's two things to explore here, I think. The first being that he was financially able to try to guarantee that he wouldn't be, his body wouldn't be exhumed or wouldn't be taken straight away to be anatomized, because that was very often what happened to criminals,

unless they could pay the fee to the hangman or to the authorities to say, no, look, I want to be buried. The second point to make here is we do see this strange worship almost of Turpin. This is from a source in 1739. So this is happening straight after his death. And it's telling us that he's being exalted amongst some of these people, that they're carrying him triumphantly. They use the word triumph through the streets. And it does say that there's something happening in the contemporary mindset where they're saying, actually, this man went against authority and we're

with him because of that. And there's this folk hero status that's already coming in straight after the gallows. Now, that's not that unusual, as you and I know in straight after the gallows now that's not that unusual as you and i know often on the gallows people do take on this i don't know it's almost imbued with some bravery or some heroism and the fact that apparently he hangs himself he takes the leap he doesn't need to be shoved off a cart or so he usually hangman would have moved a cart and he would have dropped but in this account it's telling us that he made that leap himself see the other person in history that we know who does that is guy fawkes and i'm not saying that guy fawkes didn't do that or that dick turpin didn't do that but i wonder if that feeds into this narrative of him being a kind of folk hero and that he's daring to the last um

for anyone who's ever been to york you can of course go in the the york castle dungeons the the old prison cells that he would have most likely have been kept in when he was awaiting his execution there's also his grave in york but anthony truth or try is it you're using my game show against me maddie is it his grave possibly probably not certainly the the marker is much much later but there is a wonderful historian professor Professor James Sharp, who has done some research into this and thinks that it's very, very unlikely that the grave visible today is the actual point where Turpin is buried. Just because, and this is so, sometimes we overlook the most straightforward details when we're looking at these histories. It's very unlikely that a convicted felon would have been buried in a marked grave so they wouldn't necessarily know especially because they were trying to keep his body under the ground because people were

trying to take it it's very very unlikely that it actually would have been marked in a way that was able to remain so for hundreds of years afterwards so So it looks to me like, and it feels to me like that, that particular spot isn't the spot, even if it's in the vicinity. And even if it's, because often, you know, convicted felons were buried in mass graves or sometimes they found spots

near consecrated grounds. So maybe he's in and around there. But yeah, it's unlikely. I haven't been down there obviously i haven't tried to dig him up i don't know but it feels to me that that would that seems unlikely i think that ambiguity when it comes to getting to the heart of who dick turpin is and where he is now i think that's a perfect place to end this episode i would love to think that he is buried there and i've been to that grave site multiple times, actually, as a student.

Tell us why you were there, Maddy. And if this doesn't sum up why Maddy is one of the co-hosts on After Dark, nothing does. So, listeners, before we started recording, I did admit to Anthony and producer Stute that we, I did take my now husband to Dick turpin's grave on one of our very first dates that wasn't the main activity of the day i don't know it's the only one you've told me about but yeah we were both students in york we had to walk by it to get to the restaurant we were going to so we did we did stop by and i think yeah he's signed up for a life of standing by historic gravestones ever since so yes that that's that but if you are in york listeners do do go and go to the grave it's

whether dick turpin really is there or not i think it's it's a really tangible piece of york's history and it's well worth it's well worth a visit thank you very much for listening to after dark myths misdeeds and the paranormal you can follow us along wherever you get your podcasts as you presumably know if you're listening to us please do leave us a review we love to hear that you're enjoying the show but more than this it helps other people discover us so please please go and do that if you've enjoyed today's episode. at Wendy's. Available for a limited time at participating Wendy's in Canada. Taxes extra. Welcome to True Spies. The podcast that takes you deep inside the

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