After Dark: Myths, Misdeeds & the Paranormal - The Story of England's First Drag Queen

Episode Date: July 13, 2026

Born John Cooper, "Princess Seraphina" was one of the first English Drag Queens. Princess Seraphina was an 18th-century gentleman’s servant who openly embraced her feminine drag persona. But in May 1732, a man named Thomas Gordon robbed her of her clothes and money. The court case that followed was astounding.Today Anthony Delaney takes Kate Lister back to the riotous streets of 18th century London.Anthony's book Queer Georgians is out now in paperback.Edited by Tim Arstall. Senior Producer is Freddy Chick.Sign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries, with a new release every week and ad-free podcasts. Sign up at https://www.historyhit.com/subscribe.  You can take part in our listener survey here.All music from Epidemic Sounds. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Born John Cooper, Princess Seraphina was the first English drag queen, or so historians have said. Serafina was an 18th century gentleman's servant who openly embraced her feminine drag persona. She was a stalwart of the Molly Houses and masquerade Bulls, but in May 1732, a man named Thomas Gordon robbed her of her clothes and money. It led to an incredible, scandalous court case at London's Old Daily, the trial records of which give us an astounding glimpse into the everyday life of queer Georgians. Princess Serafina, England's first drag queen was laid to bear. So here we are. From the riotous streets of 18th century London. This is a very queer episode of After Dark.

Hello and welcome to After Dark. My name's Anthony. And my name's Kate. And today we are taking a little trip back in time to talk about queer Georgians because my paperback is coming out. But not before I've taken over the podcast. Why? Well, do you remember when I was doing my red lipstick exculpades? Yes.

And you said in the comment that you would like to try one on. Do you remember you said that? And now we're going to do red lipstick on After Dark. I've brought it with me. Okay. Are you putting this on me? Oh the god the chaos ensues Wait, are you actually doing...

I'm actually doing... I'm actually... Wait, wait, wait, wait, I'm scared. Don't be a baby. It's for history. Beautiful. It's very red. It's expensive stuff.

Oh my God, I'm scared. Don't be scared. Channel the queer Georgian. Right, give me a m'n-o-o-o-m-m-m- Did I do... It's on your tea. Wait, where? Oh my God, and I can't even see this.

I'm going to have to wait until I finish the whole episode. I think it looks stunning. Oh my God, I'm so scared, but also delighted slightly. We're on theme, though. Well, we are on theme because we're going to be talking about a person who is often referred to, I take a little bit of issue with this, but a person who's often referred to as Britain or London's first drag queen. See, that's perfect.

It's like you all most knew what we were going to be talking about. I might have, didn't I pounced. I'm prepared a little slight of hand for what we were going to do. No, this is the story of the history of Princess Serafina. And Serafina didn't make queer Georgians. Oh. Because she, there is essentially one source. And it's fairly lengthy.

It's the old Bailey trial. but it's very difficult to build an idea of the world around what's being talked about in the trial. So in terms of there being enough for a whole chapter and a book, it wasn't quite enough. But there is enough for a podcast episode. So I'm delighted to be able to revisit queer Georgians

through Princess Serafina and have that link going there. Princess Serafina, whom, what, why when? Give me a date, give me a name. I will give you a date and I will give you a name. It's 1732 when we encounter John. Cooper, also known as Princess Serafina. I can see why they upgraded.

Yes, and obviously they come from a very long, illustrious line of Coopers of barrel makers and whatever else. And I'm sure that was not Seraphina's calling, and hence being another name Seraphina. John Cooper was who Seraphina was a lot of the time. And then Seraphina was somebody who came out for nightlife, for masquerades, for different elements of

entertainment, sex, fun, campery, frivolity, community building. And she has her own

identity. Some people never knew John Cooper at all and only knew Seraphina. So depending on

how you, so if I was only ever meeting you at a particular bar and I was there as Seraphina,

that would be the only way that you would have known me. So, what area of London is this? So Seraphina

lives on the strand, what we now, well, was then called the Strand as well. But it was a very kind of different place. Then it was somewhere that people lived. It was also a very high, low life.

So there was a lot of aristocrats living around the Strand. So you say that sounds posh. Yeah, yeah. There was. And there was a huge, you know, stately homes around there. But there was also then dive bars. And there was a big Molly presence, which mollies are men who have sex with other men in the 18th century

or one of the type of men who have sex with other men. And they will congregate around certain areas in the Strand. There was a Molly house on the Strand. just down one of the side alleys that's still there today. The Molly House is not there, the building's not there, but the alley is still leading down

as you go towards the river. So there's a real mix of life and high and low cultures happening there and they're intermingling in really interesting ways. And the first encounter that we know of John Cooper

as he is that particular night on this night that we encounter him is that he is having a drink and he is out of, of a night. But we'll get to all of that. That's the details from the trial and we'll come to the trial at some point. But this is a London, this is a time that

is experiencing a lot of sexual openness in some ways but also then danger on other sides. And that happens with gender as well. We see a lot of gender play and masquerades and other things. And I know you spoke to Dr. Mike Cubsa recently on

your podcast and she has a book about masquerades recently. And And so this is all kind of coming together in and around the strand. And there's loads of characters, shall we say, around. For anyone that isn't aware of the history, can you describe to me what a Molly is and what that subculture was? Yeah. So we have an idea that mollies are a certain type of thing, which is men that had sex with other men. And that's true.

But what I found in queer Georgians is that wasn't the only type of man that had sex with other men. So we have the cock queen, for instance, in, uh, Queer Georgians, that's the first time that the cock queen has appeared in a book. And the cock queen was a man who had sex with other men, yes, but the cock queen was far more domestic in his sex life with other men. The molly is very specifically more public. And that comes into, so seraphene is a molly without a shadow of a doubt. Right.

Because it comes into this idea that you are in bars, that you're maybe in fields, cruising grounds, certain areas that you know you're relatively safe, but bear in mind your life is on the line here since the 16th century you could, a man having sex with another man could and was put to death in 1726, so we're in 1732 here, but in 1726 there was a very famous Molly trials

from Mother Clap's Molly House that ended in two specific hangings of Molly's there, but 40 men were arrested initially. So we then live in memory. Oh, absolutely. These, Seraphina will have known what happened at Mother Clap's. And probably some of the people that Seraphina knew

will have been acquainted with people who were at Mother Claps, right? Because these are communities that cross over, that you don't stick to just one Molley House. You can do the tour of all of them. And she will have known probably, or she will have known

or she will have known people who knew people that were at Mother Claps, Molly House on that February night in 1726. One of the really interesting things about the Mollies is that it's not just a word for a man who is sex with a man. There is a culture and a community of men

having sex with men at this time. And that is a really important thing to understand and to recognise that they're not hiding away in the shadows. They're being careful, but they're also surprisingly visible, I find. It's a real strange dichotomy. And I even struggle to get my head around this, because I say on one side, people's lives are literally at risk and are getting hanged at Tyburn.

And on the other side, people in the general community know Princess Serafina for dressing in women's clothing. Wow. And the association is that if you're dressing in women's clothing, you're probably having sex with other men. Now, we know today that that's not necessarily as clean cut as that, but it's certainly the implication that was around in the 18th century. And so, yeah, there's this visibility. And we'll see this in the trial when we come to it in the kind of second half of the chat that we're having now, where Seraphina is very much acknowledged, seraphina as opposed to John Cooper, is very much acknowledged in this community and even in communities beyond.

queer communities. And I think let's talk about the name maybe for a second in terms of that idea of community. So Princess Serafina, there's a, you know, a fantastical element to that. There's the kind of diva hood. There is the hierarchy that comes into the community. You see it come into the Molly community. So some other names that we have. If you think about keeping in the back of your mind now, there's the hierarchy in this community. So we have dip candle Mary. So these are just some of the example names we know from the trial records. Dip candle Mary was a candle maker. Obviously, his name's not Mary. but this is what we have. We have Orange Deb.

So Orange Deb, Deb was an orange cellar in Common Garden. Then you have the Duchess of Camomile. So she lived on Camamile Street in London. So there's always a link to what they're doing or who they are. And then we have Princess Serafina. Now, there is a hierarchy there of who these people are and what, you know, and it doesn't mean they're from money because they're not. Like, you know what I mean?

Most of the, Amali is usually a working class man. So, and also to, I see this online on TikTok sometimes and it annoys me a little bit where they, they say that these are men who are trans their gender identity and have become trans women. That's not the case here. That's not what we're looking at. There are trans histories in the 18th century. They're featured in the book. But what this is is more a history of cross-dressing, a history of drag and a history of female naming that doesn't always have to carry along with clothing. So to some of these men, you could meet Princess Serafina out.

And even if she wasn't in her female glad rags, she would be presenting to John to everybody else, but you would call her Princess Serafina because you know her. And you're maybe Diff Candle Mary or you're maybe Orange, Deb. So you'd say, how are you going, Deb? How are you going, Serafina? Like that kind of way. And that continues.

I had such a brilliant conversation with my lovely late friend, Paul Grady, who was when he was in the drag scene, and he was Lil, you know, everyone knows Lily Savage, but to the lads that he was hanging around with, he was Lil. And every time I met one of his friends many, many, many house parties called Vera. I don't know what Vera's name is. It's Vera. But that's not the name that is on his government documentation.

And he, you know, he lives his life as a man even still. And I think it's really important to remember that drag has that history, cross-dressing has that history. And female naming rituals within the queer community, or what we would now term the queer community, has that ritual too. So they are referring to one another. It's why we would still often among gay men go,

oh, she's in or she's here. It's just camp. It's a way of belonging and it's a community formation. So that's what we have here. There is a community and that it's just, what was that like to exist then and like to be so open that you're calling each other by nicknames and like it seems so dangerous.

But also like these names are affectionate and they're fun. and there's a performance to them as well. Yeah, it starts to be the real modern definition of camp, right? Where there is a real ownership and power in these things, despite the fact that, and it becomes camp because we actually know that the men are very power less realistically when it comes to it, because they are faced, as I say, with proper consequences.

Their lives are at stake here. What was it like? It was, it's hard to say, because the documentation that we have around Molly Houses specifically is very one-sided. We don't get men

who are going to Molly Houses leaving and I just remember that I've got your lipstick on. That's fine. We'll just keep going with that. But we don't, we don't get... I've got really used to it already. Have you? Yeah.

I can, I know it's not suiting me. I know that. You don't need to put it in the comments. I beg to differ. Okay. But we don't have records from men who went to Molly Houses

themselves saying this is what happens when I go to the Molly House and I have a lovely night and I meet your man and I have a bit of a smooch in the corner and we might even go next door to have sex. We don't have that. What we have is journalists who infiltrated the Molly House in the 1720s, 1740s. We have a few different instances. We have people who are involved in the Society for Reformation of Manners who have infiltrated who are trying to stamp out vice across London and England more generally. So we have people who are adverse to this way of life infiltrating and then giving accounts. And they, They are very derogatory accounts. They are damning accounts. They are trying to make these people out to seem like they are the worst of the worst. And actually, the legacy of that continues. And today, you know, you see what people talk about like drag queen story time and how that poses a danger to society, to children, to families, to all of this kind of thing.

And actually, it's just somebody in a frock reading Aladdin in a library. Do you know what I mean? Like, and calm down, Phyllis, you'll be grand. So it's, it is a community for. formation and we keep using these ideas of it being open. And it is. And this is where the tension for me always is. It's open. But only if you're part of it or near it. And the people who are part of it and near it, if you want to look for the queers, if you want to look for the Mollies, look for the sex workers. That's they live side by side. And they are informing each other's

businesses. They're helping to form protection, camaraderie, wider community. You will find in this particular instance that Seraphina gets into female dress, I think for the first time because female sex workers put her into it. Archer, that was a service that was being offered like right up to the 90s. I don't know if sex workers still offer it, but certainly the welcome collection has this huge collection of what we're called tart cards, which were put inside post boxes and the phone boxes right up until the 1990s. And one of the big services that seems to be offered is, is what do they call it, sissification. I think it was called at a time, which was like dressing men up as.

Oh, I didn't know this. As women. Yeah. Yeah. So it's fascinating that it would be sex workers that would. That there's a legacy to it. That might be a legacy that's never been recorded. We have another example.

It's in the book again of this in the 19th century in New York and Mary Jones, who is also Peter Soali. And you are getting more into a trans history there with Mary Jones. She lives her life a lot of the time as Mary Jones. She is put into female dress for the first time by the black female sex workers that are around her. And she becomes part of that community. She becomes a sex worker. But there's also a protection element involved

that if there's more men around, even if they're the Mollies and something goes awry, then there can be a level of protection happening if they need them to get them at the Mali house or whatever. So there is a community exchange happening there and camaraderie and kind of allyship, I suppose, we would call it today. Was Princess Serafina selling sex? Is that how they've come to the record?

Okay, so that's no, no, I don't think so, although it's very difficult and we don't know for 100% certain that sex was happening in Mali House. It's always been presumed even in the scholarship in the 90s and early 2000s, it was like they're having sex, they're having sex in there, they're having sex in there. And we there are accounts that say they are, but they're all coming from the adversarial sources. So you have to question why they might be trying to get that shut down. That said, we do know that people were. having sex out around the back of these places, that were rooms in these places. Some of them were actually not in bars or taverns. They could be behind a shop. So we think that probably was

an element of sex going on there too, but they also talk about marrying. They also talk about like, you know, love relationships, love matches that are having. So it runs the whole gamut of what those relationships could be. She's a messenger. She's a message. Molly Messenger is how she's often framed. A Molly messenger. Yeah, what does that mean? Yeah. She's sometimes referred to as a Molly Cull.

So often 18th century sex work, you'll find the Cull as the customer. The customer. So he is referred to, John is referred to as a Molly Cull. He's carrying information. Is he some kind of a pimp potentially? Ooh, okay. But we don't think that he is selling sex himself. Right.

But he might be forming some kind of a pimp. situation or he might just be making links. He's definitely going between establishments and he's definitely working between different molly houses. There's nothing in the archive to suggest that he himself is selling sex, but he's adjacent to the industry, certainly. So then how does Princess Serafina slash John Cooper end up in the records at all? Is it a busted Molly house? Is it, they're not arrested for selling sex? What are they doing? How do we even know about this person? Yeah, you shouldn't. actually. And had Serafina had her way in some way, you wouldn't know about her at all. But I think it says something about, it is a trial, but it's not a trial of Molly House.

And I think it says something about the fact that it was Serafina who brings the trial. Oh, hello. Is why we know about her. That does not happen anywhere else. And it's why even though we only get this one glimpse into Serafina's life in queer history, it stands out because she goes, I ain't afraid of no ghosts. I am taking this man, Thomas Gordon, to trial for a particular thing.

So shall I give you a bit of a backstory as to how we get to the trial? Okay. So we have Thomas Gordon, and it is 1732, as I say, and Princess Serafina is kind of known in the entertainment part of London. She's in the Strand, as I say,

not too far from Covent Garden, local character, local, local, local, local, local, local class dignitary, Princess Sarapina. And Thomas Gordon comes into one of her local boozers. And they're chatting away, chatting away. And it's we ours of the morning now, by the way. And they, you know, Sarapina's in male clothes, by the way. So she's John at this point. Okay.

And they're like, shall we take this conversation elsewhere? Oh, I know what that means. I know what that means. And so they go to. Mugget Ovalteen and some Tiddlywink. Yeah, except they go to a field because they're going to a cruising ground. That's not what I would do. That's well, you know, I mean, this is one of the things.

I'm just like, I can't be outside, lads. I can't be outside. You're like, now you're a princess. Fair. Well, I definitely would have been some form of, princess would have been my side. Actually, I will say this is very telling, but there are, I don't think I've ever disclosed this on After Dark before. in my little queer coterie

my female name is the Duchess there you go I love that that's an exclusive for after dark but it feeds very much into she's going to want her comfort it does doesn't it well no I'm kind of with you

that I've had sex in fields before and it's not I don't recommend I'm trying to think if I've had sex in a field and I'm from rural Ireland and I don't think I have it's just it's not what it's cracked up to be but then if you are having the kind of sex that can get you hung

you're going to have to find your place. You're going to have to find somewhere, right? You can't just be, you can't be taking this person back to your mothers. Yeah. No, no, you're definitely not doing that. And so they go off together. John and Thomas Gordon go off together to, we think to have sex.

Why else are they trying to find a private spot together? I know you shouldn't speculate. But I can't imagine that they're going in to have a bit of fun fun. Talking about the cost of eggs, are they? No, no. But it doesn't happen. Because once they get in to wherever they're going, Thomas Gordon turns on John Seraphina and says,

take off all your clothes. No. I'm going to give you some rags, but I want your clothes. They're better than mine. And Serapina's a bit like, are you well? Like this is not why we came here.

What's going on? And I will point out, again, we're talking about this quite loosely, but actually there are parallels between a lot of ways in which gay men, even today are what is very crudely termed gay bashed, where they're entrapped, basically. Yeah. And the homophobes use it as a way to take out their homophobos.

So Thomas Gordon takes, asks Seraphina on dress. She does. She does. John does. And hands over the clothing. And then Thomas says, if you tell anybody about this, I will say that you tried to bugger me. And therefore, your life is instantly at risk because you will, you can die for that. You can be hanged for that.

No. That's not how the night was supposed to turn out. That is not how the night, and whatever kind of, you know, charms Thomas had turned on for the first few hours of their conversations. Sneaky bugger. He definitely wanted to go a little bit more. He's Robin. Robin the Molly's. After that, Robin the Mollies.

So he does that. They've swapped clothes or at least Rob Serfian's clothes. She does have clothing on, just not her good male clothes. And she's wearing male clothing. They come back in to a more central location. and despite the warning that Thomas has given Serafina, she immediately says, come here, this fellow's after robbing me clothes.

I don't care what he's threatened me with. You guys need to take him out because he's taken Michael Close. And you have to remember, you be like, clothes, why is she freaking out about clothes here? They don't own very much in the 18th century. It's a completely different world, isn't it? You might own, like, one item, outfit of clothing and then another for Sunday best. Absolutely.

And it is the most, the thing you spent probably the most, the most money on is your clothing. So he's not probably looking to wear the clothes just because they're a bit better. He's probably looking to sell the clothing and get himself a bit of money or we don't know what he was going to do with it. In fact, when you're looking through the old Bailey records of the time, one of the things it's most likely to be stolen his clothes. Absolutely.

And this is why it's a very kind of regular thing to do. And I mean, you have to remember, bear in mind, Serafina's coming in now into town again, right? And she's going to be, she's going to be on or near the Strand. She's going to be around people she knows. And as a result, that can work in her favor, and it can also work against her. I have an account of what people would have known Serafina before. So she's arriving in behind, they come in back into town together.

People see her. This is what they think of her, right? If they know her. She would go around with her accomplice. They picked up two men who had no money, but however, they proved to be my old acquaintance. This is somebody talking going, I knew these two men that they picked up. One of them has been transported for counterfeiting masquerade. tickets and Tother went to the masquerade in a velvet domino and picked up an old gentleman

and went to bed with him. But as soon as the fellow found that he had, that he had been got by a man, he cried out murder. So we know that Serafina has a reputation for for same-sex activity. Some people will view that one way. Some people may be more accommodating, especially if they're part of that community. But we have that impression. Nonetheless, when you she discloses this, first of all, then you get two men who are like, okay, I'll get your clothes back for you. So they chase after Thomas Gordon. And they run him down and they try to get him. It gets all a little bit. There's a lot of drink involved here now, by the way. Because it's late, late early morning by this point. It is. And the two lads that are chasing are drunk,

Thomas has had a few drinks. Sarah Feene has had a few drinks. Nobody's thinking particularly clearly here. And everyone's running around the, the, the, the, the, the, garden area of London, the Strand area of London trying to get these clothes back. And so it does become a bit of a melee. People are hiding here. Have you seen this fella? Have you gone to, they're all running after each other. The two lads that initially say that they'll get Thomas for Serafina, they're like, Seraphina, I'm too tired. I'm not doing this anymore. I need to go home. It's been hours. Yeah, I can't be running around after this fella. And they just abandon her and leave her to herself. And so now she's wandering the streets

looking for more help, trying to find Thomas Gordon again, can't find him. She comes across two other people, two other men, and just like, here, lads, this guy called Thomas Gordon has taken my clothes. Actually, she doesn't know his name of this one, but this random man that I was talking to in the pub has taken my clothes. I need to get them back. It's a big deal. And they're like, you're a bugger, we're not going to help you. And they get quite violent with her as well. So I think they push her to the ground. They may be like, they put a, they're very violent with her. I can't remember the exact details, but she, she is harassed and she is, she is assaulted essentially as she tried. to get herself some help.

And so that kind of ends the first stage. Doesn't get the clothes back. Doesn't get the clothes back. No, that's actually kind of vital. It doesn't get the clothes back. And it's all very far school. It's all over the place. But Seraphina goes home with the lesser clothes on her.

And she decides that evening that she is not going to let this lie. that she's not going to let this. And it's remarkable for the 18th century. She's not going to leave it at this. She is going to pursue this with the utmost power of the law. And we will discuss what she does next after this break. So just recap in here. So Princess Serafina, clothes have been nicked by a Scaliwag.

Scaliwag has run off. Everyone's drunk. Benny Hill music is everybody's running around the strand trying to catch this person. Eventually they get away. But Princess Serafina thinks the hell. you are and what brings a case against him? Does she find him again? What happens?

She does. It's kind of, again, this, we talk about community, right? Yeah. And she goes around, describe, the next day she gets up and she's like, he's not getting off this. So she gets up and she's like, I'm going to tell people who may know him, who might have encountered him. And lo and behold, they're like, that is a man called Thomas Gordon.

He lives here, get the magistrates involved. and let's take this to the old Bailey. Yeah. I mean, I'm sewing that up very neatly narrative. So there is a court case then? There is a court case. It takes place on the 5th of July 1732. And this is the world famous old Bailey.

This is an open. There's one side of the courtroom open at this moment in time to stop disease spreading through. Like you could go to the old Bailey and die from catching disease. So that's why the side of it was open. It's not the same building that's there now. But it is in the same thing. place, more or less. And these are packed events. And something like Serafinas is going to be a

particularly packed event because there's a bit of scandal involved. There's cross-dressing going on. There's what we might call drag. There's same-sex activity. But she brings the case. She's looking for retribution against Thomas Gordon. So her, you know, sexual activity, her her livelihood, her lifestyle is not on trial here. Would you get in all the other Molly cases? She is pursuing somebody else because they've taken her goods. And he is, the potential outcome for this for him is transportation probably at this moment of time to America rather than to Australia as we more stereotypically know transportation. But so, you know, stakes are high for this man for Thomas Gordon.

He will probably be regretting right now stealing this stuff. Presumably then, Princess Serafina, like they must just be thinking like my sexuality and my cross-dressing have nothing to do with this. I was just innocently in a field with Thomas Gordon at two in the morning and they stole my clothes. I think this is probably that very point for me is the most fascinating thing about this

because it's really hard to know. What is he think, what's John Cooper thinking? What's Princess Serafina thinking? Are they going, I live my life like this all the time. Yeah. There's no big deal here. Do they not think it's a big deal? Do they just not think that this is going to get brought up or like somehow become a factor in the case?

And I wonder, and this is speculation, but to look, it can speculate as much as you want. I wonder if living on the strand, living near Covent Garden, living near Soho, you're in a bubble. Are you in a, is it possible to be in a bubble? Yeah, I think so. Yeah, I think so.

Yeah, that's my instinct on it. You forget that the rest of the world isn't necessarily like this. And you know the raid happened in 1726. You know that. But actually, I'm surrounded by people. Again, remember, again, it all links in. He came back from, I think it was Lester Fields,

or one of their local fields. He came back from the cruising ground and immediately approached people to say he's Nick Mustafa. He's Nick Mustafa. And we were in an intimate situation and he's Nickma stuff. So he wasn't,

and he does find retribution because of that, but he's not necessarily expecting it. So it's interesting that he goes, why would I not bring this? Yeah, yeah. This trial. Like I would imagine there was a lot of people

who went, I am not putting my head about the parapet here. Yeah. Which is why Princess Seraena, and it's very princessly, right? It's very, it's very, it's very aristocratic. It's very entitled in a brilliant way of Serafina to go,

of course I'm going to pursue this. I don't imagine that that is how the court case turned out, though. I'm going to guess that Princess Serafina's sexual activities does become a feature of this case. Yeah, the sexual activity becomes a feature of the case. That quote I mentioned to you earlier about, oh, he was with somebody else at masquerades and concealing identities and then taking old men back and,

then they're finding out that it's a bloke and blah, blah, blah, that comes up in the trial. So Princess Serafina's sex life definitely comes up in the trial. But when you're dealing with these histories and you have these adversarial sources, one of the things for me is to try and read between the lines to see what you can make of the actual lives. And we've been talking here about, did he have a network? Did Serafina, was she protected to some extent, was she really well liked? And I think that's actually what the trial record shows us

because there are loads of they get loads of witnesses in on both sides, right? But there's a few. That in itself is interesting that witnesses were willing to come forward. Yeah, they came forward. And again, because you mentioned this and I think this is actually really key as well,

these aren't unusual trials if it was just, he stole my clothes. Yeah. That's not unusual. The seraphina element is unusual. But, and that's why it becomes a star attraction trial and why we were talking about it in 26. But like I've got some quotes here

if you'd like to hear them of what some of the witness statements said. So like they're a bit kind of all over the place and just you know some of them are a little bit more condemning because do remember they are in public. They can't be seen to be

supporting this necessarily. But this is from Mary Poplitt, a woman called Mary Poplitt. And she keeps a pub called The Two Sugar Loaves It's on Drury Lane And both Serafina and Gordon were known to drink there So this is These are her, well, as close to her words as we will ever get

Of Mary Poplott, right? I have known Her Highness a pretty while That sold Sold She calls her Her Highness Listen to the pronouns We're mad about pronouns in 2026 Listen to this

She used to come to my house from Miss Mr. Tull, she. She. So it's Her Highness and she. Yep. To inquire after some gentlemen of no very good character. Now there, she's hedging her bets there. So there's a few mollies hanging around the two sugar loaves, if not exclusively, there's definitely some.

I have seen her several times in women's clothes. She commonly used to wear a white gown and a scarlet cloak with her hair frizzled and curled all around her forehead. And then she would so flutter her fan and make such fine courtesies that you would not have known her from a woman. I have never heard that she had any other name than the Princess Serafina. Wow.

I just think that is one of the most remarkable things I've ever read in any document. In a court. In a court. She's like, I didn't know she had another name. No. She will have known she was a character, but she's also saying she's quite passable as a woman.

Look how comfortable she feels as well, talking about that. I'm just not even blinking, not even flinching. She's going in and out of these establishments, dressed in female attire, very attractive female attire by the sounds of it. She's got her hair did.

She's out for the night. But we also then, behind it, there's a not very good character of this man that she's looking for. So we get this idea, again, of being in some way involved in a sex trait

where she's either linking people up or she's, it's not 100% clear, but she's looking for certain people of not very good character. Okay. But Mary Poplitt is there to tell her side of the story.

Completely unashamedly. Completely unashamedly. And probably she saw, and I just love that too. Because you can imagine it now. Fling open the door to the two sugar loaves. Mary's behind the bar. She sees Serafina coming in

and she salutes her, she's like, Your Highness, you know what I mean? You can see it. You can hear it. You can hear the clamour. And she's part of the, I think this to me says,

she's part of the furniture there. Yeah. Yeah, and it suggests a friendship and a camaraderie. And again, that bubble that we're talking about, this is obviously completely normal to Mrs. Poplin. It's totally normal to her and to Mary Robinson, who testifies that the Princess Serafina would borrow fine clothes from Mary Robinson's dressmaker to wear to the pleasure gardens,

a Kalamanco gown, a smock, laced pinners, and she just kind of oozes positivity around Sarah. She's like, she looked great. Yeah, she does this. She uses my dressmaker. She might only hire it. She can't afford to buy the clothes. She's just hiring them.

But she gives her a few quid here and there. And like, so for me, yeah, there's, there's a lot of talk about actually he's a bugger. And you can't trust him. And spoiler alert, Thomas Gordon is not found guilty. Oh, no. He gets off. And, you know, and it's because of the gender play that comes into it and that surfing is seen as a as a disreputable part of London society.

But behind all of that, I just, I'm here with Mary Robinson. I'm here with Mary Poplitt, all the Marys, as another Mrs. Holder, she's the keeper of a nightseller. And she says that her, she was, it was her place that they were drinking on that night. And she said, they started drinking at 2 a.m., started. And they had three pints of Huckleham buff, as we call it. That's gin and ale made hot. gin and ale made hot

Oh my God So we talked about them being drunk Yeah, very drunk You know Now Mrs Holder is on Thomas Gordon's size She says he's honest That you know We've never had any problems with him

But Serafina would come To my cellar With such sort of people The court asks What sort of people Why, to tell the truth He's one of the runners That carries messages

Between gentlemen in that way the court replies in what way she says why he's one of them as you call Molly Culls he gets his bread that way to my certain knowledge he has got many a crown under some gentleman for going of

sodomiting errands oh that's interesting but don't you just get I find this one so tantalizing because you're like you're almost invited into the world for a couple of nights to be with these drinks you see what

they're drinking. You see these women behind these bars, women, by the way. You're noticing how the women are always there. How they talk to each other. Yeah. And they're supporting where they can and then probably turning up to, like these are business women

as well, bear in mind. They're running these pubs and these taverns. So it gives you this ecosystem of people that are working really bloody hard to survive. Women, what we would now understand as queer men, cross-dressers, as they would have referred to themselves at the time.

It is a tantalizing glimpse behind a history that we should never have known. And it's just, you're almost invited in. You know what they're drinking. You know what they're saying. You know they're in the corner. You know that John and Thomas are in the corner there together and, you know, such and such and such one has an eye on them. And it's so, it's only glimpses.

You're snatching archival glintzes and it's so frustrating. but I kind of love it. You're just peeking behind the curtain a little bit. Do we find out what happened after the trial? Disappears. Disappears. It's one of the, you find it an awful lot with Molly trials.

But here's the thing about this. I take that to mean good things. Yeah. Because what, the Mollies were not looking to be caught. They weren't looking to be legally recognized. They weren't looking to make history. They have. And that's why queer Georgians exist because they didn't.

did make history in many ways, across different iterations across that whole long 18th century. But they were just trying to survive and enjoy their lives. And so when they disappear out of the archive, it is my hope that that's what happened to them. They just went back to their lives. Serafina. I don't think Serafina disappeared just because her name came up in the old Bailey. She's certainly not dragged in front of them again. Her name doesn't come up again.

So I hope she went back to the Duchess of Camel Mile or A and other Duchess of Camelmael. I hope she went back to Diff Candle Mary and Orange Deb. I hope she went back to them all. And I'm actually, equally we don't know what happened to Margaret Clap, the owner of that Molly House. I always hope she, for some reason I have it in my head that she got in a boat and went off to America and opened up a Molly House there.

I have no archival proof of that. It's not very likely that that happened. There's a good chance that Mother Clap died. but Serafina definitely lived and she definitely went on to have some bit of a life afterwards anyway. So I'm hoping she gave them hell for the next few decades.

I hope she got some nice new clothes. You can guarantee she did. She was hiring them from that dressmaker. He was like, oh, Jesus, John, I'll give you a barrel if you give me this dress or whatever it was, whatever. And then what are these messages? What are these molly-called messages?

What was that culture? What were the messages that were being brought back and forth? And she's earning her bread. Sarapina's earning her bread that way. And it's just one of these, as you say, local characters, staples of the West End in 1732. Here she is. She is giving you a glimpse into this life that she's,

she is thriving. Yeah. She, I can't help but feel like she's thriving. She's found a way to not just survive to thrive in these amazing clothes. But to have the confidence to bring that case and to allow yourself to be spoken about and to introduce those witnesses who have no compunction at all about talking about you in your chosen pronouns and referring to you as your highness.

And it's a real glimpse into a world that perhaps we wouldn't have got otherwise. And I think it's a real thing to say that the legacy of gender play, gender nonconformity, that there is an idea that there is more than this and that has a history and that that history is complex and nuanced. and it's not black and white and it's not what we needed to be today

it's what it was back then and we have to meet it where it was in the time, in the 18th century and we have to work towards uncovering that history it doesn't have to work for us that's why I always say when I'm talking about these histories but it is yeah I just I'm rooting for Sarah Fina

and John the whole way through because for me it's a success story I don't know how it ends but the fact that she goes about her life that's a success story for an 18th century, Molly, we'll take it. I think so. Anthony Delaney, thank you so much for being on your own podcast.

Thank you. I'm glad that I turned up and I did my job. I nearly finished it off then by saying, thank you for coming on betwixt the shoots, but it's not my podcast. It's everybody's podcast, but it does get confusing, doesn't it? And you know what's really weird? I mean, you're having this now because you're promoting the book. It's weird when you host a podcast and then have to go on podcasts.

Yes, very weird. And you're the guest and you're like, oh, I have to do different things now. Yeah, the dynamics are strange and peculiar. Yeah. Do you want to finish it or should I finish it? I think you should see us out today. You've steered the ship today. Okay.

Okay. Well, thank you very much for tuning in to After Dark. You have been absolutely fabulous. Anthony, if people want to know more about you and your work, where can they find you? On the Strand in London, dressed in a glamorous, no, they can find me at Anthony Delaney history. It never in a dress. I don't suit it, sadly. But this lipstick, yes.

Is it still on? It is, of course. Is it still on? Of course it's still on. famously, it lasts forever apparently. My God. And if you want to know more about me, you can listen to me on Betwix the Sheets,

the History of Sex Scandal and Society, or you can find me at Dr. K. Lister on the social. I'm going to, before we go, I'm going to have a look at this so I can give my reaction to it. Oh. I have been sitting here for the last 45 minutes to an hour talking seriously about history with these lips. I think, well, so if I.

Yeah, but they look good on you. Oh, lads. As if I needed, as if I needed, after sitting here for an hour, as if I needed to tell you I don't look good in a dress when this has been there as tested the whole time.

I've gotten used to it very quickly. I forgot I was there. Yeah. I think it looks fabulous and it was on trend for the theme. It was on trend. Your highness. Listen, go and do your other bits and pieces

that you have to do for the day. Get you a wet wipe. Yeah, get me a wet wife. Thanks very much. Lads, I shall see you again on the next episode of After Dark. You know.