After Dark: Myths, Misdeeds & the Paranormal - Titanic: The Final Hours (Part 2)

Episode Date: November 4, 2024

Part 2/2. Iceberg, panic and lives changed forever. Loss, survival, and myth-making. Today is part two of the most famous maritime disaster in history.Maddy Pelling takes Anthony Delaney through the tragic sinking of Titanic, from the fateful moment the iceberg is spotted through to what the wreck means today for people around the world.Special thanks to our guest Marnie Wood a cultural historian and a producer on Titanic: In Colour.Voice acting by Lucy Davidson and Stephen Ventura.Written by Maddy Pelling. Edited by Tomos Delargy. Produced by Freddy Chick and Charlotte Long.Enjoy unlimited access to award-winning original documentaries that are released weekly and AD-FREE podcasts. Sign here for up to 50% for 3 months using code AFTERDARKYou can take part in our listener survey here.After Dark: Myths, Misdeeds & the Paranormal is a History Hit podcast.

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Listen to Uncover Bad Results everywhere you get your podcasts. Acast helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. ACAST.com It's 11.40pm on the night of the 14th of April, 1912. In Titanic's crow's nest, Frederick Fleet and Reginald Lee look on in horror as the vast dark shape rushes through the ocean to meet them. Iceberg! Iceberg! They shout.

In the bridge, panic is setting in. First Officer William Murdoch acts fast, ordering the ship to turn hard to starboard. The engines, he instructs, must be cut and put into reverse. Perhaps they can avoid the collision they all know is coming. But it's too late. With a terrible jolt, the ship connects with the iceberg, juddering horribly as a colossal wall of ice presses down on the vessel close enough to touch now. Titanic groans as jagged pieces of ice splinter across the deck, scattering at the feet of the

panicked crew and the curious passengers who have come out to witness what's unfolding. With a final shudder, Titanic frees herself, escaping the clutch of her icy foe, but now taking on water and fast. In just a few hours, Titanic will meet her fate. Over 1500 lives will be lost in the freezing waters of the Atlantic. In a catastrophe, the world will struggle to comprehend. But for now, it's all the crew can do to stay calm. They must keep the situation under control until they know the extent of the damage. Few realize the gravity of the situation. Hello there and welcome back to After Dark.

My name is Anthony and I'm Maddie and today we are embarking on part two of our two-part Titanic special. Now, in part one, Maddie guided us through a history that's known, but one of the things which I found really fascinating about episode one, Maddie, was this description of the interior of the Titanic. And not just that, the people that are on board. It was a real insight into the lives on the Titanic, as opposed to what happens after the crash, which is, you know, devastation. And we're more familiar with that

devastation as opposed to some of the lives and the hopes that were happening before the actual crash occurred. But as you were describing in your narrative just then, we are now at the point that everybody knows about. We have hit the iceberg. So tell us about the impact that's happening on deck and what happens thereafter. Well, there is literal impact. The ship hits the iceberg and it judders. It's this big shake, this almost earthquake that moves through the vessel. It happens really late at night. And through the vessel. It happens really late at night and there are people still around, still at work. There's a skeleton crew on duty that night. The captain himself has gone to his rooms to retire. Most people have gone to bed. They are asleep, resting safe in the

knowledge that the ship is powering safely through to the destination on the other side of the Atlantic. It takes quite a while for people to realise what is happening and that a catastrophe has occurred. I think what's very difficult for people to grasp nowadays is that, especially with all the technology we have and everything, that this would be difficult to happen now because there'd be radar, there'd be communication, there'd be all kinds of things and they would be aware of the conditions that they were going into and even where the big blocks of ice that they needed to avoid were. You know, none of us are naval experts

so this is not casting a Spurgeon. Speak for yourself, you're rude. Yes, you've spent many a year, I'd see. How did they miss this? Well, there's several things to say here because the Titanic, on the one hand, is this bastion of new technology. We've talked in episode one, and by the way, if you haven't heard that, go back and listen to it. You're doing this entirely in the wrong order. So pause here and we'll wait for you to catch up. If you have listened, stay with us. The ship is full of new technology. It's got electricity. People are able to send telegrams back to the coastline. So it's not that it is

using even 19th century or 18th century naval technology, but we still have two men up in the crow's nest who are lookouts, which is to me, that feels like something from the past already in 1912. So that's a kind of interesting thing. And the thing to say about poor old Frederick Fleet, who sees the iceberg coming and shouts out a warning is that he and his fellow up in that space do not have even binoculars with them, which feels so low tech. And I have tried to find out why they didn't have binoculars. And it seems to be from what I've been able to discover, they just simply weren't issued them. They're up in the crow's nest.

They just don't have binoculars. This is my ignorance now. Is that unusual for this type? Like they would usually have binoculars. I mean, binoculars existed and you know, they absolutely should and would have had them, and so it feels like it's one of the many failings of the Titanic. You know, we've got first-class lounges with little electrical buttons next to people's seats where they can press for the waiter to come over and get them

another drink, why have people in the crow's nest not got binoculars? It's completely bizarre, but that is what happens. And the other thing to say in this moment is that Titanic has been warned that it's passing through an area of the Atlantic, which is full of icebergs. There's an official warning given to them and other ships passing through this lane. They know that there are these objects out there and some of them really are vast and they can do so much damage to the ship. But of course, on the other hand, the people aboard believe that the Titanic is unsinkable. That's how she's been sold to the passengers, it's how she's been sold to most of the crew.

Her designer, her architect is on board as a passenger at this point. Nothing's going to go wrong, surely. Okay. So this is the thing, right? We'll come back to the people on board, the general passengers and what they're experiencing in a minute. And I think that's really interesting to look at that again with fresh eyes, particularly from like an archival perspective. But let's park that for a second. We also have, as you say, the designer, the architect of the ship on board, we have the captain. These are experienced people, they potentially know what this means quite quickly.

So how quickly do they go, right, this is really bad? It does take them a while. In the main bridge, there's panic, of course, when they strike something. But Titanic is designed, she has 16 watertight compartments that four of which can be flooded and they can be sealed off and the ship will still be fine. Okay. So four of them can be completely filled with water. And when the ship hits the iceberg fine. Okay. So four of them can be completely filled with water. And

when the ship hits the iceberg, the hull is torn open and these compartments do start to fill up. But unfortunately, water gets into a fifth compartment and that's simply too much to be taking on. And do we know why the fifth? Just because of the amount of damage? That's exactly it. The iceberg hits the ship at the wrong angle. The Titanic, don't forget, it's going really, really fast, faster than it should be at this point. They're really keen to get to the destination in America ahead of time to provide the best service that they possibly can before the passengers on board and to break records.

And then it's part of their advertising marketing campaign. This is how they're selling it. It's not just luxury, it's speed as well. This is the most convenient and comfortable way to travel. So it hits the iceberg with such force and at such an angle that the tear in the side of the hull is just simply too large and too much water goes in. The boiler rooms also take a hit and water starts to fill up there, which of course, not ideal. Because that's going to stop the ship. Essentially, yes. And that is the engine heart of the room, the boiler rooms.

And people are working down there incredibly hard in these really hot, difficult conditions and suddenly there's water flooding in. I mean, that must have been a truly terrifying moment. And if you're down there, I suppose in the boiler room as well, it's so loud and it's such a sort of busy and chaotic environment and you're so focused on the physical work you're doing, you're not really going to be aware what's happening elsewhere on the ship and you might not have been aware that it had hit an iceberg until it was absolutely too late. So all that's going on. Now, the captain Edward Smith,

who I mentioned in the last episode was from Stoke-on-Trent, shout out to not quite my hometown, but my home county. He has gone to bed at this point. He's awoken by the impact of the iceberg. And there's a really fascinating detail, which is often cited is that in the wreck today, we can see his rooms and the bathroom that was joined onto his suite and the plug is still in the bath, suggesting that he might have been in the bath at the time. I don't like it.

Yeah. That's weird. I didn't know that. It's a weirdly intimate fact, isn't it? So you can imagine this man, you know, he's done a long day shift. He's left his crew in charge. He thought, we're all safe. I can go to bed and relax.

Maybe he's, you know, he's got in the bath. Maybe he's already ready for bed in his pajamas and he just hasn't pulled the plug out yet, but it's, you can see this routine of this Edwardian man, this captain just winding down for the night and then suddenly there must have been the impact and maybe a knock at the door, or he anxiously is getting dressed, running up to see what's happening. And quickly enough now, it starts to escalate, right? So we have Thomas Andrews, as you say, who's the architect of the ship. He's on board too.

Now you've brought the Captain Smith back into us. And we have the five compartments that are flooding. We have the engine room, which is not now really working as it should. Now surely panic stations. So panic is starting to set in with the crew, but of course they don't want that to spread to the passengers. So part of the job now is on the one hand to try and plug the water coming in and work out what they're going to do.

And as you say, Thomas Andrews, the architect and Captain Smith are in the bridge now. They are together. They are trying to make a plan to go forward, but they say to the rest of the crew, it's imperative that you keep everyone calm because they all know that one of the biggest problems with the ship is that there are not enough lifeboats for everyone on board. So they know this. They absolutely know this.

Okay, that's interesting because I just didn't know whether or not they were aware of that before they set off or whether that's something they discovered on the spot after the collision. It's an active decision made by the company, by the makers of the ship. They prioritized space over safety essentially. The way that the Titanic decks are set up and as we spoke about last episode, you've got the first class deck and the second and third class decks kind of around it. The idea is that it's a place to be seen. It's not only a place to go and get some fresh air, but the second and third class passengers get to see the first class celebrities walking around. That wouldn't have been the case if the deck was covered in lifeboats.

So they've really sacrificed the potential safety. And of course, the other thing is that they don't think they're going to need them because this ship is unsinkable, Anthony, it's not going to go down. They don't need the lifeboats. If anything, the ones that are there are actually an inconvenience. They are, you know, ruining the view and the aesthetic of this very streamlined, beautifully designed luxury vessel. So the lifeboats are a problem, the water's coming in, and we have to keep everyone calm

and work out what on earth to do next. History has made this world of ours. I'd like to tell you about my show, Dan Snow's history hit, that really explains everything that's ever happened. The origin stories of the cities we inhabit, or of what's in our kitchen cupboards, why we've always been drawn to dictators, the greatest discoveries, inventions and mistakes ever made. For curious stories, check out Dan Snow's history hit, Wherever You Get Your Podcasts. One of the things I love about this is that so often as historians, you get this kind of pushback of going, stick to the facts. You don't know what people were feeling. It's called the history of emotions, babe.

Look it up. It's a whole field of study. Google it. It does exist. But the Titanic is one of the places where you can blatantly get a sense of that. And that's what's in our next narrative. Yeah. So you're going to hear in this next section, the voices of real people who

experienced this moment when it was becoming increasingly clear that something had gone wrong and this feeling of panic is palpable in the written record that we have. This feeling of panic is palpable in the written record that we have. When the iceberg struck Titanic, most passengers were in bed, asleep. And so, to begin with, only a handful realised anything out of the ordinary had happened. Charles Williams, a racket player on his way to New York to defend his title as world champion, had been playing squash until late that evening. He was still in the smoking room, relaxing after the game when he felt the shock.

He rushed out on deck to see the looming shadow of the Berg pass by. Algernon Barkworth, a gentleman from Yorkshire, followed Williams out and recalled afterwards seeing ice powdering the deck. From there he heard Captain Smith telling a group of women present to put on their lifebelts. He went below to his cabin to change. In another cabin below deck, Robert Daniel, a cotton broker from Philadelphia, was working at a stenograph, a kind of shorthand typewriter, when he felt the collision.

Stepping out into the corridor, he asked an officer what was happening and was told not to worry. He went on typing until moments later a knock at his door came, and the same man informed him calmly that the ship was, in fact, sinking. The peace of the night was by now coming to an end. News of the accident had spread, and across the ship passengers were waking up to confusion. Suddenly, we heard hundreds of people running along the passageway in front of our door. They did not cry out, but the pattering of their feet

reminded me of rats scurrying through an empty room. I caught up my daughter, Marjorie, just as she was, in her nightgown, wrapped a white star cabin blanket around her, and started out of the door. My husband followed immediately behind. Neither of us took any of our belongings from the cabin, and I remember that we even left his watch lying on his pillow. We did not doubt for an instant that we would return.

When we reached the second cabin promenade deck, we found a great many people there. I, and all the others about me, did not believe that the Titanic could go down. Then, above the clamour of people asking questions of each other, there came the terrible cry. Lower the boats! Women and children first! Someone was shouting those last four words over and over again. Women and children first! over again. Women and children first! The third boat was about half full when a sailor caught Marjorie, my daughter, in his arms, tore her away from me and threw her into the boat. She was not even given a chance to tell her father goodbye. You too! A man yelled close to my ear.

You're a woman! Take a seat in that boat or it will be too late. Go Lottie! I heard my husband say. For God's sake be brave and go! I'll get a seat in another boat! The men who held me rushed me across the deck and hurled me bodily into the lifeboat. I landed on one shoulder and bruised it badly. Other women were crowding behind me, but I stumbled

to my feet and saw over their heads my husband's back as he walked steadily down the deck and disappeared among the men. His face was turned away so that I never saw it again, but I know that he went unafraid to his death. Another second-class passenger, Nellie Wollcroft, a brewer's daughter from Berkshire, remembered the scene well. Like Collier, she made it into a lifeboat, but the dangers did not end there. She made it into a lifeboat, but the dangers did not end there. We had 70 foot to be let down in the boat, and when we were going down, a steerage passenger jumped in the boat. And our officer, seeing our danger, jumped in the boat and shot the men to keep them from swamping us. And when nearly to the bottom, the ropes ropes letting the lifeboats down refused

to act and they had to cut the rope and we dropped I thought that was my last minute. For Collier clinging to her young daughter Marjorie and still thinking of her husband left on the deck above it was the water that she feared most next. The bottom of our boat slapped the ocean as we came down with the force that I thought must shock us all overboard. We were drenched with ice-cold spray, but we hung on and the men at the oars rode us rapidly away from the wreck. It was then that I saw for the first time the iceberg that had done such terrible damage. It loomed up in the clear starlight, a bluish-white mountain quite near to us. Two other icebergs lay close together, like twin peaks.

Later, I thought, I saw three or four more, but I cannot be sure. Loose ice was floating in the water. It was very cold." By the time many of the third-class passengers made it on deck, there was no hope of getting into a lifeboat. The only option was to face the water they all knew was coming. Swedish emigrant Ernst Persson recalled the panic he and his sister Elna faced before being separated. When Elna and I came up, all lifeboats were crowded. At that time no rescue was found.

We stood together all the time, so we agreed to accompany each other into the deep. But as the boat sunk and the water started pouring over the deck, there was a terrible sight and scuffle, and that separated us. Then I heard Elna saying, Tell Wilhelm and my parents and sisters if you get rescued. saying, tell Wilhelm and my parents and sisters if you get rescued. Then I didn't see her any longer because then we were all washed overboard. I think one of the captivating things about Titanic, right Titanic is that we have such a wealth of these emotive responses that it's not just the Titanic hit the iceberg at this time, it started taking on this much water, the fifth thing started to take on water.

I felt like this, I saw this, I overheard this. It's really small snippets from everyday life in a really heightened situation that none of us ever want to find ourselves in. The one that stuck out to me there was the overhearing the captain saying to the ladies put on your life jackets. And I can just imagine if you were just walking around going, oh, we had a disturbance and... Yeah, that was strange. I wonder what that was.

Yeah. And then you see the captain, you're just like, oh, good, we're fine. The captain. Yeah. But then he says, ladies, good. We're fine. The captain. Yeah. But then he says, ladies, you better put on your life jackets. That's when I'd be like running to Shane going, Shane, by the way, is my husband going, uh-oh, this is not good. Get the dogs.

Do you know what I mean? Like this, this. And can I just say that Shane would have taken all responsibility. He would have brought life jackets for you, for the dogs. You would have not even given it a second thought. You would have rocked upon that ship with absolutely no... We're getting off now. Oh me? Yeah, no, I would have been sold. You wouldn't have bought anything for safety. Genuinely, when I was listening to you before, I was like going, I would have totally bought into this. I would have been like, we don't need lifeboats.

It's not gonna sink. Yeah, honestly. And I would have been like, as long as I can see myself in that nice light, I don't care. You'd have been like, I need more luggage room, Shane. Why are you putting these lifeboats, these life jackets? That's such a pain. Equally, I would have been in bloody steerage. Like, I don't know where the notions are coming from because I would have been a third class Irish passenger, let's be perfectly honest, but you know, anyway, not

to mention same sex relationships in 1912, but we'll skip over those facts. The idea suddenly sinks in listening to those voices or recounting those voices. I can feel the panic. I can feel it starting to mount and mount and mount. Yes. So it's amazing that we do have these records and so many diverse voices, because I suppose that's the thing about Titanic. As you say, there are people in all different walks of life, different social classes across the whole strata. And there's Americans, there are Swedes, there are Irish, there are English people. There are people who've joined in Cherbourg when it stops in Cherbourg in France. There are people from all over Europe and North

America on this vessel. The thing to remember, and we are going to go on to talk about this, is that a lot of the reports we have were written after the fact by survivors, and a lot of them sold those accounts to newspapers. And so you have to think a bit about the filters some of those texts have gone through, how details might have been hammed up, or even how you said there about one passenger overhearing the experience of another passenger. It's very useful to map where people are in the ship. But I wonder how much of that is people reading, oh, I've just read Anthony Delaney's account of his survival. Yeah, I think I saw what he saw. I think I saw him putting his life jackets on his little dogs. So I'll put that in my one. I'm not saying that everyone

actively lied afterwards, but we have to just bear in mind some of the drama may have been injected in later on. I'm glad that you think I might've survived because I don't have such a- I mean, I'm being kind. The dogs would have survived. On the big, the floating door from the film, Shane would be on there with the dogs. Yeah. And I just pushed them off.

I'd be like, go on. You're fine. Shane would be like, sorry, I'm sorry. Yeah, this is too much. You're acting a bit weird. The dogs are the problem. Yeah. Right. So we have the panic starting to mount now or the realization that what's about to happen is potentially catastrophic. And even the passengers are starting to realize that now. Let's talk about the lifeboats in a little bit more detailed then, because we

have only 50% of the passengers are going to even potentially have access to a lifeboat. So is that sinking in? What are the crew talking about this right now? What, how do we plan for this? Okay. So everyone knows that there weren't enough lifeboats on board. So on board there were 20 lifeboats, I think half of what it should have been. These boats could accommodate 1,178 people, which is,

as you say, just over half the number of people on board. The other thing that comes in in this moment, because when people start to get up on deck and to get into these boats, obviously there's a rush as people try to get on them. There's get into these boats, obviously there's a rush as people try to get on them. There's panic and people are afraid and they want to get off the vessel and they want to secure their place. One of the protocols that's put in place is this idea of women and children first. That's something we see replicated in the 90s film. It's something that I think a lot of people associate with the Titanic. So that's something that's happening. And a lot of the accounts that we get are from female survivors whose husbands

stayed behind by choice because that's what the staff instructed them to do. Some of those men did go on to survive, but many didn't. And so you've not only got this moment of panic when the ship is about to go down, but you've got this wrenching of families apart. You've got women and children getting into the lifeboats, if they're lucky. We must say that most of the people who get on the lifeboats are first and second class female passengers who have male family members who can advocate for them and push them to the front of the queue and maybe slip someone some cash and whose social status means that they're important enough to get into one of those boats. So it's not all women and children on this vessel who are being offered that space.

But it's this incredibly tragic moment and we see these individual stories coming through here. So we have Isidor Strauss, who is one of the co-owners of Macy's department store, who's a millionaire and his wife Ida are on board. And we heard a little bit from her, she's talking about the flowers in episode one and the sort of glamour of the ship when she gets on. They actually refuse their spot on the lifeboat because they don't want to be parted. And they're represented in the 90s film, they're the old couple on the bed as the water is coming around them. And I find that incredibly touching that they chose to stay

together. I think I would do that they chose to stay together. I think I would do that. I think I might. If it was a case of either being split up or... It's incredibly hard to know, isn't it? In that moment. But that really speaks to me, that moment between Isidor and his wife Ida. Benjamin Guggenheim, also a millionaire, he is still dressed in his evening where he hasn't gone to bed yet when the iceberg hits. He comes up on deck, he sees people getting in the boats and he decides that's not for him. And he declares that he and his valet, by the way, he says, are prepared to go down like gentlemen.

We don't know what the valets take on this was. He was probably thinking, are you joking? I'm like, I am not paid enough for this. I don't, I'm happy to be considered not a gentleman. Put me on the live. I'm like, I am not paid enough for this. I don't, I'm happy to be considered not a gentleman. Put me on the live. Yeah, I'd like to live please. Who's recording that, that we're happy to go down as gentlemen, because it's like-

Again, this is anecdotal evidence. These are people who are hearing these snapshots and you start to get this mythologizing of moments and one of the myths, and it's, I mean, it has truth in it, but I think it has had these mythological layers put onto it, is about the Ships Band led by Wallace Hartley, who is the violinist on board. And we know that they played in the first-class lounge, really almost until the very end. And I grew up with a professional violinist mother and have been in the pit of many an orchestral concert and

show. And I can tell you that absolutely is the camaraderie amongst musicians. And I can totally imagine the band going down with the ship. I mean, they had very little choice. And we'll talk about Wallace Hartley later because his violin becomes this iconic object associated with the Titanic and we are going to see that again. But I just want to come back to this idea of women and children first, because I think it is so remarkable and it says so much about very early 20th century culture and understanding of gender politics of what it meant to be a woman and interesting women and children, it's sort of elevating and literally preserving this idea of motherly women and all of that. Some motherly women. Some, unless you're really poor, in which case you can just stay in

steerage until the water gets to you. But it also says so much about masculinity in this period, that men are expected to, as Guggenheim said, go down like gentlemen. They're expected to just step aside and say goodbye to their families and goodbye, darling, good luck. Don't forget, so many of the men, especially in second and third class, have converted what little wealth they have into jewelry, into cash that they've sewn into their coats. There's a few men who do this. The women folk get in the boats and they go down not only and tragically die, but all of their income, their wealth goes with them. For a lot of the families in second and third class, it's a really significant amount of money to them. That's the funds that they're going to use to

start a new life. The meager wealth that they'd amassed in England, in Ireland, wherever they were from, converted into jewelry and cash. One of the people who did this was Harvey Collier, the husband of Charlotte and father to little Marjorie Collier. It's really reminding me how disposable working class people and working class men are in terms of these global events. I'm thinking Titanic, but then I'm also thinking two years later at the outbreak of the Great War, how many working class British men were sacrificed and Irishmen were sacrificed. As cannon fodder. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. It's almost like preserve something else, but yeah, you know, it's not hugely revelatory, but it's just a reminder. Yeah. And they're sort of sacrificed to this idea of honorable masculinity.

You know, I'm sure that, that many of the men, particularly in third class, class You know would have liked very much to survive and to get on a life bit not necessarily expensive women and children I'm not saying they were climbing over them, but you know, there was that History has made this world of ours. I'd like to tell you about my show, Dan Snow's history hit, that really explains everything that's ever happened. The origin stories of the cities we inhabit, or of what's in our kitchen cupboards. why we've always been drawn to dictators, the greatest discoveries, inventions and mistakes ever made. For curious stories, check out Dan Snow's history hit, Wherever You Get Your Podcasts. So we're at this moment on deck where we've got incredible panic, we've got people rushing to the boats, we've got these difficult decisions being made and from here on in it really is chaos and horror essentially. In almost no time at all, Titanic went down, her bow plunging into the water and her stern

at first rising high into the air before snapping and diving beneath the waves. In a few moments, the world's largest ocean liner disappeared into oblivion. It was now past 2am on the 15th of April, and alone in the water, surrounded by dark and silence, the handful of lifeboats still with living passengers aboard, bobbed, waiting for rescue, most too reluctant to row back to search for survivors. At 4am, a ship that had heard Titanic's distress calls arrived on the scene. From her deck, the crew of RMS Carpathia were shocked by the scene that greeted them. Half-frozen survivors shivered in lifeboats, and, strewn across the ocean's surface, was wreckage and the frozen bodies of the dead. One by one, cold, exhausted, traumatized, Titanic's surviving passengers were pulled from lifeboats and brought aboard.

When the Carpathia arrived at New York on the 18th of April, she was met with crowds of thousands. News of the disaster had arrived before her on American shores, and everywhere the curious craned for a better view. On the quayside, reporters' bulbs flashed and their pens clicked and scraped, as each clamoured for an interview with Titanic's Lucky Hue, before racing to get their story in print. print. It's such an indication of the modern

setting within which the Carpathia arrives in New York, that the news has arrived before the Carpathia arrives, because actually, you know, this has been a long time for the people who have been in the water, who have been rescued. But relatively, it's a short period of time in terms of how news travels. And it also feeds into

the technology that's on board the Titanic that the news can travel that quickly, because obviously the SOS signal has been sent. But this is when the myth making starts, right? earnestly starts straight away. And it's interesting that America is the home of that because the hope people were coming to hasn't necessarily materialised. LARLEY Yes, although other opportunities for these people start to rear their heads. Yeah, I mean, it's really interesting, isn't it? You know, we think of the modern press today potentially as being a little bit predatory, you know, searching for these interviews, pushing the boundaries of these people, especially

on the Titanic who have survived incredible trauma. It was only a few hours ago that they are, or days ago at this point, I suppose, that they were in the water, in the lifeboats. They've been pulled up. They don't know what's going on. The disaster happened in the middle of the night. So already think about people's sleep patterns, how exhausted you'd be, how absolutely confused. of the night. So already think about people's sleep patterns, how exhausted you'd be, how absolutely confused. And when the Carpathia docks in New York, it's carrying not only the survivors, but many of the bodies of the dead. And there are further rescue missions to go back and recover some of those remains. But it's a hugely traumatizing scene for people coming off the ship, but also people at the dock side seeing that some of the survivors, and it's not all of them, but it is a surprising number

really, do talk to the press. A lot of that is actually because of a reason that we've already discussed. A lot of the men of their families, the breadwinners in a lot of cases, have gone down with the ship. They are now dead. Many of them took their belongings with them or belongings were left in the cabin in a moment of panic and they've lost what worldly goods they had. And so a lot of the women and the children that are left do have to make a life for themselves in this new place. They can't afford to go back across the ocean and would you want to get in a ship having just experienced what you've experienced? They are paid to talk to the press. In the case of Charlotte and little Marjorie Collier, a fund is set up where they speak to the press. The press then asks for people to send money into them. Along with the written account that Charlotte gives of her experience of being aboard, there's

this photograph and it's a really famous photo. If you haven't seen it, just go and Google it, Charlotte and Marjorie Collier. It was taken within days of them arriving in New York. And, to describe it to us, because I think you can see the trauma written across their faces. It's a remarkable photograph. It really is. We have a woman, Charlotte, on the left-hand side of the picture as you look at it. And then you have Marjorie, the child staring directly at as she's on the right-hand side. They are on a swing bench on a porch, which is saying something about domesticity, the life they hoped to come with. There's also a slight space on the swing bench to the child's left, which is indicative of the father that should have been there, that isn't there. On Charlotte's lap, there is, what is that, a flag or a blanket or something?

But it definitely says the white star line, the famous star. So obviously that's there. I find it really interesting that Charlotte's looking away from the camera. She's looking kind of to her right. And then Marjorie's looking at us directly. It's quite haunting, actually. And their houses, we would recognize, like, it just feels like a very sad, obviously, enough domestic scene.

Yeah, it's really striking. I've actually never seen this before, but it's so interesting to see that either blanket or flag or whatever that is, the white star line just draped over Charlotte's lap. So one of the claims that the white star line had was that it gave every passenger a woolen blanket with its logo on. And this was, you know, one of the sort of luxury things that you would get when you went aboard, no matter what class you on. And this was one of the luxury things that you would get when you went aboard, no matter what class you were, you would get one of these. And I think you've picked up there, Anthony, on so many of the elements of this photo that tell us just how

staged it is. And I think the first thing to say is that the absolute horror in their faces, I mean, Charlotte, the mother, as you say, she's looking away. It's like she can't bear to be perceived, really. You can see the shock and the confusion and terror still on her face and little Marjorie looking straight at us. That looks genuine to me, but there are these very carefully choreographed elements that are really meant to show off, I suppose. The white Starline logo being there, it almost is sort of saying, you know, we're still taking care of the survivors. This wasn't our fault. We still want to get our brand out there.

Charlotte looking away, but then Marjorie looking into the camera. Don't forget they're asking people for money. What better way than to have this little girl who's just lost her father looking directly down the lens at you, the reader of the newspaper. It's a really haunting image, but I think it tells us so much about those layers of narrative that are starting to be added, whether the survivors are choosing that or not. Other people are now taking control of the story. Let's talk about, well, there you go.

Let's talk about taking control of the story. Legacy. What are we left with? How does that legacy start to get built in the immediate aftermath of this disaster? Because it's with us today. So almost immediately after the Titanic sinks, there is an inquiry set up and it becomes really clear soon into this inquiry that there have been failings. So the insufficient number of lifeboats obviously comes up as an issue. And also the fact that the ship really did ignore the iceberg warnings for the region that they were sailing through, pretty crucial stuff. The inquiry actually led to the change in maritime laws. So

after the Titanic, it was a requirement to have enough lifeboats for all the passengers on board, which seems so rudimental. But it's incredible that it took this disaster for that to change. That's bizarre. Also, it led to the creation of the International Ice Patrol that monitors iceberg movements. Pretty important. It really did change the maritime world, maritime lore in meaningful ways. We, of course, get these celebrities that emerge from the stories as well. You've got people like Charlotte and Marjorie Collier, and you get this sort of canon of passengers that people often bring up and refer to and you see them again and again in TV documentaries, you see them in book retellings of the event. These specific individuals that have really stayed with us because they wrote

down their account later on or because thinking back to the Guggenheims and the Strausses as well, that decision to stay on the ship and give up their lifeboat place for someone else becomes really remarkable and passes into myth, I think, in a lot of ways. I just want to talk about Wallace Hartley. He's the violinist, the leader of the band on board. He did go down on the ship and his body was recovered several weeks after the sinking actually from the wreck site. It was brought back to the shore for a funeral and 40,000 people lined the route of the funeral procession. And of course he wasn't famous beforehand, but it's because he went down because he was part of the band that went down the ship and that narrative had already

taken hold that by the time the funeral comes around, people really understand his sacrifice and want to, want to mark that. His violin survived though, and was found in an attic in recent years. It was sold by the auctioneers, Henry Aldridge and son in Wiltshire in 2013 for £900,000 and get this inside, there was an inscription that had been put there as a present by Hartley's fiancee wishing him good luck. As the band leader. You've seen it. In the last couple of, during this summer I saw it. Yeah, it was really- In Belfast?

Yes, in the Titanic Museum. It's part of a new part of the exhibition and it's really striking that and the life jackets. They are the two things, well, there's one life jacket that's covered in blood and the violin and they're really, really striking. Of course, the Titanic has come back into headlines really recently because there was a submersible of the Titan in 2023, which ended in further disaster. And there is talk now about what should be done with the wreck, how it should be handled, how it should be preserved, if it should be preserved, it should be left where it is. What are your feelings on that?

I can see both sides of the argument and I can see why people become so interested in this and why they'd want to go and be in proximity to it in some ways. I think because it's literally frozen in time, it is so tantalising and because it's frozen in a moment of panic and disaster, but also of opulence and hope, that human story that's preserved down there, you can see why people want to get close to it. Having said that, I think there's been so much work done now and there are so many projects online to do this, to recreate all of the spaces and to repopulate the ship. There's huge research being done on some of the lesser known passengers in third class, for example, who experienced that space who either survived

or didn't survive. Do we need to disturb it any further? That is the gravesite of hundreds of people. I don't know whether we need to. With the technology we have today, I don't know whether we need to with the technology we have today. I don't know whether we need to go down there. And I certainly don't think it should ever be raised to the surface. One word which I want you to explain a little bit more about before we finish up, because we're hurtling towards the end, is titaniacs. What on earth? So this is something that Marnie Wood brought to our attention. The TV producer that you heard from in episode one and a good friend of mine. We worked on Titanic in Colour, the documentary

for Channel 4 together. One thing that she came across, and I think this is really key to the legacy of Titanic, is the community of people, professional and amateur, who are so passionate about its history, about reconstructing the spaces of the ship, the experience of the passengers. You're going to hear from Marnie now talking about how as a TV researcher, she dipped her toe into that world and had to navigate it. It draws up really fascinating people and really, I think, speaks to the testament of how important history is to us today. important history is to us today. Marnie, when we worked together on the documentary Titanic in Colour, and you were doing so much research for that and bringing all these different stories and all these different threads together,

something that you came into contact with and something that I became aware of was the absolute vastness of the community of researchers working on the Titanic from professionals to amateurs. And I love that the amateurs who do the research, incredible research actually on the Titanic, are known as titaniacs or my personal favourite, titanaracs. I love this. So can you just give us a sense of who's in this community? Because it seems to me that this exists around this particular ship, this particular history in a way that we don't see this for other moments in the past. So who's in this community and why do you think people are drawn

to the Titanic specifically? So we've got people from literally all corners of the world in this titaniac community, all ages and people who have been drawn into the subject through all sorts of different avenues, but I think a huge unifying factor is without a doubt the James Cameron film. There are websites dedicated to learning about Titanic and they go in all sorts of different directions from arguments about how many rivets exactly the Titanic had to conversations about people's relatives and their anecdotes and how that fits into the Titanic canon. We're obviously talking about a ship that's got thousands of people associated with it, not only within the passengers, but within the people who constructed her and

designed her. And this just gives you so many avenues for research. I think this is the reason that Titanic and amateur research matches up so nicely, is because if you were to take this as a legitimate academic pursuit I think it would be almost impossible not to get pulled down some of the rabbit holes that seem to constantly emerge when you touch this subject. Marnie, when you were researching for Titanic in Colour specifically you had to do a lot of work trying to trace items, auctions, as you say, filtering through all of this information online. But you actually made an original contribution to Titanic knowledge. You did track down someone really important. So tell us about that moment,

because I remember you, I think you sent me a voice note about this when this happened. And it was so exciting. So tell us your contribution. There's a story called the Bambino story that was already associated with Titanic. When I was working on the Titanic documentary, I was instructed to try and find people who had a direct connection to a Titanic survivor or someone who had a tangible Titanic story to tell. And all sorts of people came out of the woodwork actually, and I was already mid-filming. I think about nine o'clock at night, I got a call about a 90-year-old lady based in South Hampton called Pauline. And Pauline's dad, Robbie, was actually a waiter on the Carpathia, the rescue ship that comes

in the early hours of the following morning. The Bambino story is concerning a small baby that was rescued during the chaos of that morning. It was really cold, obviously, that night, and the baby was frostbitten, it was cold, and the story goes that somebody on the Carpathia had announced to pop this baby onto a hot plate basically in the kitchen. The baby is in a kind of toasty baker, wrapped in lots of blankets, and it thaws out and eventually is reunited with its mother. So it's a lovely story with a happy ending. I phoned up Pauline, who was an incredibly sharp 90-something-year-old lady, and she just started telling me about her father, Robbie Purvis, the waiter on Carpathia, who rescued a baby and put the baby on the hot

plate. What we didn't know until speaking to Pauline was the veracity of this story because it's a story that's floated around but no one's been sure where it's come from. So it was really lovely to marry up what Pauline was telling me with something that we've kind of already heard rumors of and it's such a compelling story. Robbie's 19 and I just think, you know, what an amazing lad. You know, he probably saved a baby's life and he was only little himself. We showed Pauline footage of her own dad in 1912 and that was obviously a really poignant moment. Well, thank you for listening to this two-parter covering the history of the Titanic on After Dark.

We are also of course part of the History Hit Network and we would point you in the direction of Dan Snow's History Hit, which covers an awful lot more of the maritime history, some incredible stories and histories on there too. And a special thanks to Marnie Wood for joining us as the guest on this episode. The documentary Titanic in Colour that Marnie worked on is available on Channel 4 Catch Up Now, as is another series that Marnie and I worked on together called Queens That Changed the World. So go check that out.

As ever, we want to know what you thought of this episode. Please let us know on afterdark at historyhit.com. Of course, if you have any ideas of topics or subjects that you'd like us to cover on After Dark, then you can also email us on afterdark at historyhit.com to let us know. ACAS powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend. Who is the dad? For years, a Canadian lab promised people the answer. It's obviously legit. It's a DNA company.

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