After Dark: Myths, Misdeeds & the Paranormal - Were the Princes in the Tower murdered?

Episode Date: March 19, 2026

It's one of history's greatest mysteries - 'what happened to the Princes in the Tower?' In 1483, young Edward V and his brother Richard were awaiting Edward's coronation. But next thing we know, they vanished and their uncle Richard III has taken the throne. So what happened?Eleanor Janega guides Anthony through this episode, with a special guest appearance by Eleanor's 'Gone Medieval' co-host Matt Lewis! 'Gone Medieval' is History Hit's medieval history podcast. Check it out if you want to find out more!Edited by Hannah Feodorov and Anna Brant. Research by Phoebe Joyce. Produced by Freddy Chick.You can now watch After Dark on Youtube! www.youtube.com/@afterdarkhistoryhitSign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries, with a new release every week and ad-free podcasts. Sign up at https://www.historyhit.com/subscribe.  You can take part in our listener survey here.All music from Epidemic Sounds.After Dark: Myths, Misdeeds & the Paranormal is a History Hit podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Looking for more shady and sinister stories, sign up to History Hit. You can join us to explore the tragic life of the Bronties or discover the chilling story of Burke and Hair. Plus, with your History Hit subscription, you'll unlock hundreds of hours of exclusive documentaries with a brand new release every week exploring everything from the ancient world to World War II. Just visit historyhit.com forward slash subscribe to start exploring the past. Two boys are on their way to bed in the Tower of London. They hold hands as they make their way up a spiral staircase. A sound makes them jump and look back together in fright. But nothing is there. Not yet.

And yet they have been stalked by growing on ease in recent weeks, have felt the walls closing in the windows darkening. These two boys, these princes of England are in trouble. Very soon they will have vanished into the tower's stone walls. Their clothes, their belongings, everything will disappear without a trace. This is history's greatest coal case. What happened to the two princes who disappeared in the tower? The 12-year-old Edward V and his nine-year-old brother, Richard of York,

were taken to the Tower of London to await Edward's coronation after his father's death. Next thing, the princes are gone. Just disappeared. And their uncle, Richard, is suddenly crowned King Richard III in their place. But did Richard kill them? Did somebody else? Did they flee and live long lives abroad and then return to England for vengeance? For centuries, historians have fiercely debated their fate.

Today, here on After Dark, we will solve the mystery of what happened to the princes in the tower. Hello there, and welcome back to After Dark. I'm Anthony. And I'm Ellen. And today, we are going to be solving. Yes, solving, Alan. We're going to be solving one of medieval history's biggest myths or controversies or debates. And, well, first of all, I'm going to let you describe what it is we're going to be solving.

But this, we have people in different camps on this particular. So people even on the history hit team in different camps. And we're going to, it's obviously we're hosting this. But you're also going to hear from our brilliant colleague, Matt Lewis, who is also your co-host on Gone Medieval. And Phoebe, who is our researcher on After Dark. Phoebe is, has also had some stakes in this. She works at the Tower of London, which is not researching for us. So we're going to be hearing a few different opinions and viewpoints on this. And then we will make the definitive conclusion.

You don't need to look any further for your, for your outcome of this particular mystery. Tell us what the mystery is, Eleanor. Okay. Today, today we are talking about the princes in the tower. And now I hear you cry in your soul, Anthony. Yes, go on. Which princes in which tower? Well, now, I'm going to say this as well.

Am I being pedantic here? Am I missing something? This could be very me, actually, now that I'm saying this out loud for the first time. There weren't princes in the tower, technically. Well, potentially. There was a king and a prince. That's correct. So whoever the Victorians, right, did they package this?

Listen, it's sentimentality is what that is. And fundamentally, if you call them the prince is in the tower, then like the entire thing, it's just like you're agreeing that he oughtn't to have been king. That's my point. Yeah. That's my point. Right. We're going to delve into all of this.

But do answer your own question because which princess, which tower? Okay. So you've already slightly answered the question. question because our wonderful researcher, Phoebe, works at the Tower of London. We're talking about the Tower of London. Right. Oh, yeah. You love her.

I love her. I've given that away already. Wow. Listen, we simply love to see her. She has been around for quite some time by the time we approach princes getting into her. She was originally built by William the Conqueror when he arrived in London because it turns out people didn't really like the Normans had just taken over there. They're going to hold themselves in safety.

Yeah, basically. So it's like you have to have a big castle so that you can go out and take on any rebellious townspeople as and when and also intimidate them a little bit. Sure. At various points in its life, it is a palace where the kings do live. But by the time we are creeping up to the end of the medieval period, it's more like a jail. Because we're right on the verge of Tudorland here, right? That is right. So we are just getting into the early modern period. A lot of other castles have been built in the means. time that are more luxurious, more comfortable. When the king is in London, he's usually staying in houses as opposed to in the tower, because by this point in time, it's not so much of a worry that the angles will rise against him,

you know, these sorts of things. And you use it more for high-profile captives ordinarily. It's not like a prison for like Bob who stole a sheep. Bob. He needs to leave those sheep alone. And actually, you know, they don't come. much more high profile than the heir to the throne and the spare. That's right.

And that's who we're dealing with here. So we've got technically Edward V. Yeah. Edward's... Not a prince if you follow the line of inherited monarchy. Exactly. So he's 12, right? And he's there with his little brother and his little brother is Richard of York,

who is nine. Okay. And what has happened at this point is their dad, who is Edward the 4th, dies. Yeah. He dies in 18. April 1483. He is 40 years old, which is not a good innings. No, even for people, people have this misconception, right? That was like, well, they live to be 23. That was great for the day. That's not really how that was working. No, an average age,

I hasten to remind everyone. The way that you get average age is you take all the ages, yeah, and you put them together, and then you divide by it. And at this point in time, and indeed, up until we invent vaccines, infant mortality. So everybody, everybody usually dies. You get 50% of all children die before the age of two. So this is dragging that number. So it drags it right down. So it drags it right down.

So people tend to live usually into their 60s, oftentimes further. Yes, yeah. And you will hear people in their 80s, in their 90s. Oh, yeah. It's not usual to be living into your 90s in the late medieval, early, an early modern period, but it's not unheard of at the same time. Yeah, everybody knows somebody. Yeah, exactly.

It's not that word. So 40, that's not a good innings. He's being cut short, yeah. Yeah. So, like, that's unfortunate because this creates a power vacuum, right? Just in the way that 40 is not a good innings, 12 isn't a great age for a king. To be raining. No.

No. So we're going to need some form then, based on my bit of knowledge about the early modern kingship, we're going to need some form of a protectorate, I'm imagining. Yes, that's right. Okay. And so into that gap steps their beloved Uncle Richard, who we will know probably best as Richard the third. That is right.

Okay, my Richards get a bit shaky sometimes, but yes. And he's like, my lovely lads, my two little nephews, what better place to keep you both safe? Safe. Uh-huh. Before the inevitable coronation of Edward V, but in the Tower of London. And we...

But of course they're 12, so they're going to be like, okay. But here's the thing. I think this is really important to remember, right? Because we've spoken with this. They're not both princes. In this line of succession business, Edward, Edward V now, has automatically, the moment his father took his last breath and his heart stopped beating, even without the coronation, he has become the king.

But there is a solemnization that has to come with that through the coronation. So in order to make that official, the oils have to be placed on him in strategic places and all the kind of thing. So yes, he has passed one threshold of kingship, but the holy, the divine element of this kingship has not yet occurred. When Richard says, we're going to the tower, boys. Exactly. And I know now that seems very silly to us, but it is very serious to them at the time. you have to have the anointing, you have to have God recognize it, or it hasn't happened. It's not real, yeah.

Yeah, exactly. So we do need this coronation to take place. So originally, this coronation is meant to take place on the 4th of May, 1483. When does dad die? A dad died in April, right? Oh, that's quick. Yeah, well, it should be. It's ordinary to do that because you need a king.

Yeah, and you need it to be solemnized. It's like, you just got to like get the thing. You have to, the thing about monarchy is that it has to perpetuate itself, less to vacuums occur. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you need to say who is going to be in charge. England is a unique place in that the king is always getting killed and all kinds of weird things are happening. That usually doesn't happen in other countries, but England's just wild. Yeah.

Like that. So, listen, this is a country that has lived through the anarchy. This is a country that is very recently gone through some civil war. You know, there's been some light takeovers by certain queens and things like that. So we do see basically the line of succession get messed with occasionally. So it's very, very important in an English context to get this done as quickly as possible. So we're supposed to have it on the 4th of May. And then Richard is like, listen.

Mesh, May. What about like, I don't know. I'm just feeling really good about like the 22nd of June. Oh, okay. What about the 22nd of June, guys? We're on the verge of better weather. Listen. The gold's going to look shinier.

We'll have a garden party. It's going to be great. But then it's funny because then like that just doesn't happen. No, perfect. Good. It's wild that that doesn't happen. And instead, Richard the third is crown king in July. And away le prince.

Well, well, and such as the age old question. But now we have this, this man who, was not next in line, but I do think that's really important what you're saying about the idea that this line of inheritance that is supposed to be unfolding for the last few iterations hasn't necessarily gone how it should have gone anyway. Yeah. So in some ways we're in usual territory despite the fact that in the long span, it's quite unusual that this is happening. Oh, absolutely. I mean, it is unusual anywhere else in Europe. Anywhere else in Europe, Everyone would be like, what are you talking about?

In England, it's like, yeah, I don't know, things got really crazy for a while, and we made some different decisions. Now, usually military force is involved in that. Yes. But I hasten to add that, for example, with the anarchy when we have a disputed king, essentially he gets there. Stephen gets there by just getting crowned first. Stephen's back. Steve's back. Back again.

Oh, my God. Oh, cut that out. Don't let anyone know I'm making M&M references in the year of our 2020. No, I did it already. Okay. All right. My seven-year-old nephew loves Eminem, by the way. Oh, God bless.

It's really strange. Listen, the kids, you know, the aughts are back. I don't know how that has happened. You've seen the low-rise jeans. I have, yes. It's happening. So when Stephen gets to be king, it's because he got the coronation first. And ultimately, two things can be true.

You're supposed to become king if you're the eldest son of a king and you're alive. That's true. Yep. But also, whoever gets their first wins. Because God has designed that that person, even if it's not the bloodline, God has said, it's him. Yep. And it's very often a him most being.

I'm going to be so for real with you. That is correct. Yeah. Yeah. Like, so, you know, it's weird for anywhere else, but not so much for England, right? Right. So we have Ricky two. No, he's Ricky three.

Pretty Ricky. Keep it in. It all the matter. We have Ricky. three on, not Rocky three, Ricky three, on the throne. And he has weasled his way in there. All the recordings will be very sad that I use the word weaseled. I'm sorry, but I'm just using it for narrative effect.

So that's one of the people that is now in place. What has happened to the other two co-stars, our former king slash prince? Wow. End of episode. Thank you for watching. Basically, like, where are they? Yeah, where are they right now? We don't know.

They should be in the tower. They should be in the tower. Last anybody heard they were in the tower. Yeah. The last time they are seen. Okay. Is in the kind of late spring of 1480? Okay.

Now, is anybody asking where they are? Yes. Oh, good. Some people are like, hey, where did those kids go? Do you remember those two? Where did those guys go? Do you know, if he see Edward and your man, what's the other fellow's name? And, you know, we're still asking this question.

A lot of people are still looking into this. There's a lot of ongoing investigation. Of course, my darling Matt Lewis, my co-host, has Four History Hit done a really great episode that is called The Survival of the Princes in the Tower. You've got Philippa Langley, very famously heading up the Missing Princes Project. You've got people around the shop looking for them. Still looking for them now, like in really active terms. Yeah, absolutely. You know, people are sometimes digging up skeletons in the tower. You know, there are debates about whether or not some bones that we think might be the princess should be DNA tested. You know, this is a hot topic.

Yeah, still. And it's Channel 4 documentary. If we were able to do this one, that's going to be more cameras are going to be on that. Absolutely. You know, if that DNA testing ever happens, you can be sure there's a documentary crew that's going to be there watching it. Completely. You have, it's a tragic tale. right? It's like children have died or if you don't believe they have, maybe they haven't. But in terms of that haunting, they need to be dead to haunt. So in that strain of thinking, they're there and their children

and it's all very tragic and so tragedy manifests itself in haunting. It makes sense in that context. But do we know anything about those final... They've disappeared, sure, okay, we can say that with confidence, but what were they doing before they disappeared? How were their lives unfolding? Were they being treated as, was Edward being treated as the heir at that point? What's the story?

Do we know? So kind of, but the trouble that we have with this entire story is there are camps. Okay. On either side that feel incredibly strongly about this. And also a lot of what we tend to hear happens afterwards. So it'll be people who are reporting at a report. move of decades. And oftentimes also the way people talk about this is in a particularly politicized context. So the way that most people come to know the story or anything about

Richard III is usually via Shakespeare. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They'll have an insight through that, right? And Shakespeare obviously is writing for the Tudor Court very specifically. And so he's writing plays that are going to delight the Tudors and what justifies them being on the throne. But the fact that Richard the 3rd was a very naughty man indeed, and he deserved to be overthrown. Yes, essentially. So we do have ideas about what was going on at the time, but they mostly sort of come from later, shooter propaganda type sources. Exactly.

Would you say, I know this is a small bit of a tangent, but I think it's probably worth exploring. Would you say that one of the reasons this particular story or history persists is because of Shakespeare's intervention? I mean, you know, it's compelling in itself. But then it has this, a version of it, includes stage life with this. And then it's Shakespeare, so it's a pretty big deal. I think so.

Yeah. I think that we really can't discount that. And I think that also, you know, we've got him to blame for the way that people just want to kiss and make out with the tutors all the time too. Yes. Or like some of the most uniquely awful people in history. It really has to be said. So there is this kind of reification and lionization of the tutors from this period.

that is directly linked to Shakespeare. And now, like, I'm like, love Shakespeare, hate the Tudor's simple ass. Do you know what? I'm not even a big fan of Shakespeare anymore. Wow. I used to be. I used to be. But I'll tell you what happens to me after a while.

If somebody, I'm like this in the 18th century with Horace Walpole, for instance. If somebody gets all the headlines from a particular era, I really, my brain just starts to sideline them a little bit. Okay. So you're like a Marlowe guy now. Yeah. Like, just because it's like the underdog is a little bit more appealing or the lesser known thing. You're just trying to be cool.

I'm just, what about 12 night, dog? If I was trying to be cool, is this what would be happening in my life? Yeah, like, listen, yeah, all the cool kids. I've gone all the wrong ways about this. Yes, no, I love it. I have a description here from an Italian diplomat called Manici. Am I saying that right? Yeah, Manici.

Sure, why not? And it is about the disappearance of the prince is in the tower. And he is saying, and these are his translated words, obviously, the two princes were shut up in the Tower of London. Again, this is after, this is retrospectively applied. And day by day began to be seen more rarely behind the bars and windows. Is that a, is that a dubious description? Yeah, I'm suspicious of that, just the bars and windows thing.

Anyway, until at length they ceased to appear altogether. Now, there's probably elements of truth there, right? Already, there is a suspicion that they have been done away with. The elder prince, slash almost king, as I have learned, from those who knew him was afraid that he would be murdered and kept repeating his confession daily thinking death was at hand. I mean, it's very evocative. That's a 12-year-old boy you're talking about there. And you're pulling on heartstrings because a scared child is a, you know, that's like we're not monsters. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And okay, so what I would say here is it isn't weird.

First of all, it's not weird that the princes are in the tower. You usually go to the tower when you are getting ready for your coronation. Right. Like listen, this is what the Normans do. You go and you are very particularly saying that you are a part of this unbroken succession of kings even if it's very much been like it's done been broken a couple times already. But you go to the tower first, you prep and then you go over to Westminster Abbey. There's a big procession through London.

You go to Westminster Abbey, Abbey, Bada boom. You're the king. And the magic words are Bada bada bada bada bha, boom. Right? From what I remember. And then God goes. And then then you're done. He's our guy.

This is fantastic. But it is weird that this whole thing just becomes like very truncated. You know, it's like, well, where are the princes? They are being kept very particularly in a tower at the time, which is called the garden tower. Sounds nice. Looks over the white tower. We call it the bloody tower now. And is it because of this that we call it the bloody tower?

Partially. This is also where like a lot of condemned people will then be sent. not that the princes are condemned in any formal sense. Yeah. And is it, is it true to say at this point? Because we know that there was decent accommodation at the tower for a higher class. You know, I'm not saying like not overly luxurious, but it was okay. Yeah, it was fine.

Is it the same at this moment of time? Listen, probably the garden tower is nicer than what most people in London are living. There you go. See, yeah, yeah, it's not a palace, but we're good. It'll be fine. It's got a roof. Yeah. There's a fireplace.

Yeah. You'll be, yeah, it's okay. You've got some food coming into you here and there. I also have the very famous, of course, image that is way, way, way later, 1878. Oh, it's, oh, the Victorians. They love it. The Victorians. Look at that hair.

That is very Hoxton hair now, isn't it? I love their little black outfit. I know, so do I. Is that supposed to symbolize mourning, I'm sure it is? Yeah, it is. It's like, because their dad just died. Yeah. And look at, that's the other thing to keep in mind.

Like, it's got to be like, you know, again, this is a 12-year-old. year old, right? And your dad just died. And now it is alleged that you're also in fear for your life. Yes. That's a lot for a kid. And he has a lovely bevel on that step. And the lovely blowout hair do. I know. I wish. And they're holding hands and they're kind of, I mean, they're where they absolutely probably never would have been, which is these are the two boys. Obviously, we're talking about. They are, they're standing on a stairway that's. curving up into an on-scene. Now, it's very reminiscent of what you would find in that kind of a structure, but the boys

are not hanging out on that staircase. No, listen to me. Also, if you go and you visit the Bloody Tower now, which everyone should do, love, oh, I just love the Tower of Lung. But the staircase is really tiny, you know, like, granted. It looks quite big there, yeah, yeah. You know, like, ungranted, this is like tall people problems. But every time I go up those staircases, I have to, like, put my hand on them so I don't bonk my

noggin. How tall are you? Six one. You're taller than me. and sixth. Same height as Jesus. That's what my granddad just said. You know, listen to me.

That's how we make them in Kilkenny. Yeah. Yeah. Actually, people are quite short in Kentucky generally. But in my family, it's not. My family. Yeah. Yeah.

Right. So we don't know what happened to them, but people have theories. And so now we're moving into the theories part of what happened to these two little boys. The first one, it was Richard who done it. Yeah. Grow up. No, you're saying no to this. Listen to me.

This is a busy man. Yeah. He's got things to do. Can I just ask, when they say that it was Richard who donna, do they literally mean Richard's own hand? Like a lot of people say that. Yeah, like there will be like things where it's like, oh, yeah, he went in there and he knifed him or he smothered them or whatever.

And what? Are you, Kings barely like, they don't know how to cook, G. Like kings don't know how to do anything for themselves. And granted, he's not. he's not a king, but he was a duke. You know, this is not an individual who is used to getting his hands dirty. Yeah. And I mean, I suppose within this, you could say, well, he really wants to do your way with

the princes. Okay. Like, I can see, I can see that. And, like, this is, like, the best way to keep it down. Yeah. But, like, also, by the time you've done away with them, who care? Yeah, like, does it really? And actually, in some ways, the fact that it was done at the hand of the king who is now

on the throne kind of legitimizes you being there. despite the fact that it was quite gruesome and everything, but such as the struggle for a throne, I suppose, if you were to look at, I mean, again, I'm just using that as an argument because this is obviously a 12-year-old boy that we're talking about. And even in the context of, you know, childhood is not exactly understood in the same ways as we understand childhood today, but the 12-year-old boy is still seen in terms of being a child, right? That's why they would have needed a protector in order to, if he had been crowned. So we have then this idea that Richard killed him. You've hinted at this already, but

let's drill down into it a little bit more. Why? Why is that a useful theory to be out there? Well, it explains why Richard becomes king, which is really weird. There's absolutely no reason that he should have become king. Really. Now also, we have this theory crop up kind of almost right away. So we have a narrative written by a guy called Thomas Moore. Oh, I've heard of him. You may have heard of him. You may have heard of him. Now we're into the tutors. But he writes a history of Richard the 13th century. So it's like from 1513 to 1518 and he's like, Richard killed those kids. Okay. And that's where it's spoken aloud. So we have the Italian going, I'm really worried about these kids. They're looking really scared and we're seeing less and less of them. That's

certainly is true, right? But the first person ever kind of speak it forth into the world is Thomas More. Oh, I didn't know that. He's the first person to put those in England, right? To put those bits together to go, here's your complete narrative that you might have been missing some of the details, but actually I can fill in the blacks. Yeah, because the rest of it is kind of gossip. Sure. So we've heard from the Italian, it's also true that the Spanish are gossiping about this. So Diego de Varra, he is the Spanish ambassador. to the English crown and he writes back

in 1486 and he's like, yeah, Richard killed those kids. Right? Like so people are gossiping. And 486 is important, right? Because by,

this is me delving back into my mind a little bit now. 1485 is the start of the Tudors on the throne. Am I right? So it's still starting to link this idea of that murder by Richard

to the Tudors for the Tudors' benefit. It's still within that time frame, even though it's quite quick after their disappearance and after Richard comes to the throat, it's still, if we're using that as a time frame, we're now into the tutors.

Yeah, absolutely. And listen, this is when it gets all twisted. You've got Shakespeare, we've already talked about it. During this, like much is made of the fact that Richard the 3rd, according to them, is a hunchback. Yes. We do know that he had a spinal problem. Yeah.

When we found his body, that checks out, but it's like not all of that. And you got to understand that for medieval and early modern people, you bring up things like this in order to discredit people to say that they're evil. There's this idea that beauty means that one is aligned with God. Right?

So, like, you know, anyone who is like beautiful it's because God just loves them. It's a perfection thing. Exactly. I mean, we still have it today in some ways. We don't link it to God so much, but it does equal... Virtue. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Right? So there's this idea that, like, he is uniquely unvertuous by dint of having a spinal problem. And because that is socially how things work at the time that's kind of believable. Yeah, yeah. It feeds into their belief system.

And you've pointed this out a couple of times when we've been lingering in the medieval era while you've been in, and I really love this, about how easy it is for us to dismiss those things as, well, that's clearly bullshit or that, God, how horrendous is that? And this doesn't, this, this goes against everything we know on our values. But in terms of their value system,

we cannot underestimate how much. much sense that would have made for them. And I think that's important for us to bear mind. Yeah, it is really one of those things where it's difficult, you know, we can't see air because it surrounds us, right? It's very difficult to understand that you're within a culture when you're within it. You think that's just how things are. Yes. Right. Yeah. Yeah. We're not questioning this at this particular moment. Exactly. I have, not only does he say that Richard is responsible, Thomas Moore, I'm talking about here, not only does he say that Richard is responsible, Well, he actually gives a description of the murder.

So where he's gotten this from now, God, we have names. I'm just saying them. Okay, I'll read it out and you can tell us how much to ignore. Miles Forrest and John Dighton. I'm assuming. Yeah, sure. D-I-G-H-T-O-N. Listen, don't ask me how to pronounce English names.

I have no idea. No, I'm Irish. We all have excuses. About midnight, the silly children, oh, the silly children lying in their beds came into the prince's chamber and suddenly bundled. them up among the bedclothes, be wrapped and entangled them, pinning them down by force into the feather bed and pressing pillows hard onto their mouths, that within a while, smooered and stifled, I presume that's some kind of relation to smothered, right?

Yeah. Their breath failing, they gave up to God their innocent souls into the joys of heaven, leaving to the tormentors their bodies dead in the bed. Hmm. Drama. Yeah, very dramatic. Yeah. Very dramatic. And also, like, somewhat believable.

So within this, we've got, like, on Richard's Orders, right? And also, it's been alleged, the reason we have kind of, like, names, right? Yeah. That, like, some people eventually confess to killing this. So, interesting point here, right? Like, we've got these named names in Thomas Moor. Yeah, I'm surprised to see this. We got this Miles Forrest.

We got this John Dighton. We've got another guy, completely different guy, Sir James Tirol, and he's like, yo, I killed a couple. Some princes may have been murdered. By under his instruction? Yeah, basically. Yeah. Okay. So that.

When is that? Do we know when that confession happens? Is it during the tutors again? Bingo. Yeah. So it's like, again, this is just sort of like, it's all shaping up the way the tutors need it to shape up. you know, and like quite why one would confess, like perhaps under some duress. Yes, yes.

Or to just gain favor, to align themselves more closely with Henry the 7th, like all of the above. But it's there. We do actually have a confession then. Yeah, we do. And I think that it is interesting and worth considering because there is one. We can never know necessarily. We don't know how exactly or why. You know, like there are reasons that people do things.

Could he just be literally in terror for his immortal soul? Yeah. Yes. 100%. It's just as legit as anything else, right? And like literally, the way that you're supposed to deal with things, if you've murdered someone, one of the big things that priests will say to you, if you want, like, any chance of absolution is that you have to confess.

You have to, like, confess and take on whatever it is you're going to have to face, right? And is it him that names Miles Forrest and John Dighton? This is an interesting one because, yeah, he's the one who points the finger. So this is the exact opposite of who will rid me of this meddling priest, right? This is like, hey, Miles and John, what's happening, guys? Can I get you to do some light regicide? So, yeah, like, he's naming names. This is how we get these names.

Okay. I mean, it's something in a piece of history that we feel like we have nothing. It's something at the very least. And as you say, it's worth kind of considering. I'm going to move on to the next theory, theory two. And that is apparently that somebody else killed them. Who? And might that somebody else be, Eleanor, and why?

Okay. So one of the big names that we get in this is Margaret Beaufort. Okay. Big one. Big one. So she's Henry the 7th's mom. She is. And the idea here is that maybe she wanted people to not like Richard.

Yes. Well, yeah, because like it benefits the shooters. Yeah, exactly. It's like she's trying to make this claim for like this obscure branch of the family, like from Wales. Yes, yes, yes. Please calm down. You know, like, and she's trying to be like, oh, I think Henry the Salon, sure became. This is her exact voice.

Yeah, exactly. That's what she sounded like. Yeah. So like, so basically. the idea here is that somebody else has done it to make Richard the third look bad. Right. So that everyone will go, damn, bro, you sure did kill your nephews. Oh, right?

Okay. Right. And so like, now here's the thing about it. We don't have any evidence from the time. For this. For this. No, this is just like a vibe. This is a vibe.

And it's partially a vibe based off of Philippa Gregory's fiction. Right. So this is. So then that that must. mean it's relatively recently taken on real legs, then I'm sure there was probably snippets of it around because potentially those rumors informed, Phil, but when she was researching and writing that piece of fiction, but now it's taken a bit more mainstream, maybe, or spread it around. Listen, I love it.

It's quite modern. It's like a women in men's fields. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, like women can murder, Princess too. We call it the girl bossification of history on that to die. That's right. That's right. Yeah, exactly.

So, you know, like this, we, this is a very new theory. It's kind of fun. Okay, I'm going to come out and say, I don't buy it. I know. That first one I'm a bit like, okay, there's stuff there. Like, that there's either a murder committed on Richer's orders, not by him, not at his hand. But there's something in that. Okay, so we have Margaret.

I'm not buying that. So we can conclusively rule her out. Okay, exactly. How do you feel about the Duke of Buckingham? I am only very familiar with the 17th century and onward Duke of Bookingham. him. So, well, okay, so this one in particular is Henry Stafford. Okay.

Again, he's, yep, got some relations to the throne. Pretty distant. He had been aligned with Richard, okay? Okay. But then he does like a light coup against him in October 1483. And he decides that he's going over to Henry the seventh claim to the throne instead, right? So the girls are fighting. as they always are at this period of time.

So the question is, did he turn on Richard? To frame him. Yeah. Like, could he have killed the princes for Richard? Oh, for him. And then be like, oh, yeah, like, actually, it was like him. Right? Like maybe he was trying to do a meddlesome priest.

Which is what we're calling it here after. I, um. Is it what? Did you confess? No, I mean, well, I mean, the thing is like, he gets killed in November 1483 because of the whole coup thing. Bookingham does? Yeah.

So, okay. So he's not, he doesn't even. Yeah. Like, so, I mean, so it's kind of like a nice one to pin it on because it's like, well, he dead anyway. That's exactly where my suspicion is coming from. Yeah. It's like, and they're like, oh, yeah.

Like, woo, I bet that he did it. Okay. Because then it's like, well, you can't even be mad at me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because, like, I already killed that guy, right? You can't question that. You can't look into, okay. Yeah.

And, like, he is also kind of, like, a very distant relative of Margaret Burford. So, like, maybe there's like a whole, maybe it's a whole thing. Okay. Could be. Links into it. It did, you know, I'm, again, I think it's a little, I'm going to, like, no, we can rule that out. Conclusively put one of those stamp pictures over this and say, discredited. Like a name, name, name.

someone else probes not. Okay. Okay, now we're on to theory number three. And this is where our good friend Matt Lewis comes in. We're going to hear from Matt. In just a second, it'll be like you're right back at Gone Medieval. But this theory is the no-one-did-it theory and that they weren't murdered at all. Hi, Eleanor. I hope you're enjoying a moment away from the Gone Medieval Dungeon.

I can see you've got the devastatingly handsome, incredibly witty and incalculably wise Lord Anthony there with you. I've almost finished my purchase of 100 copies of queer Georgians, just waiting for Anthony's verdict on this question, really. Can I sum up my position on the princes in the tower in a couple of minutes? No, I cannot, but here goes. I think both survived Richard the Third's reign and challenged Henry the 7th for his crown.

He cast them as Lambert Simmel and Perkin Warbeck, and we've fallen for his lies ever since. There's plenty of evidence to at least suggest their continued existence beyond 1485. There's no actual evidence of deaths, at least from 1483 to 1485. There's a bit of hearsay and some gossip, but that's not admissible evidence, as anyone who starred brilliantly in a crime drama will tell you. If Richard was going to kill them, he had to tell everyone they were dead to prevent them from being a threat to his throne. Otherwise, he killed them for no gain at all. In the 1490s, crowned heads of Europe recognized the younger of the princes and

the Tower as the rightful king of England. We more often call him Perkin Warbeck, but the point here is that I don't believe kings would say you can pass off a common boy as a king. It would tarnish their own sacred majesty and open the door for someone to do exactly the same thing to them. No gain would be worth that risk. Much of our image of them is affected by romantic Victorian portraits of them, looking off in different directions, wondering when the murderer is due. Is he late? Yeah, Edward asks young Richard. Even the dog gets in on the act for crying out loud. There's plenty more to think about, but my time is just about up.

Anthony, take good care of the Queen of Gone Medieval. I have every faith that you'll reach the correct decision. Now, do I hit by on these books or not? Lightman of blackmail. That is the most compelling argument. Listen. Listen. The amount of references he got in there.

He must have been on my Wikipedia page. He got crime drivers, got queer Georgians, not to mention personal flattery, which I'm... My man can research. I fall for it. That's every single time. That's my boy. I will say this. There was one particular point which he said that I went, oh, that's interesting.

That deserves a little bit of a discussion between you and I here. We're going to have to pick this up with Matt as well, just for balance to get Matt in to talk about this. the idea that if Richard had been involved, even if it wasn't at his own hands, but had been involved in the disposal of the true air, that actually might benefit him to let people know that he was dead. How do you think that stacks up? Well, I mean, I think that that is an interesting point. But fundamentally, he also just doesn't ever offer an explanation. He's just like, damn, that's crazy. Anyway, I'm the king now. Like, there's a There's never any discussion about like where the princes are, right?

So does he ever say anything after? He's just like, wow, that's crazy. Where'd those guys go? I used to know. I used to know. Well, I guess if no one's around. Yeah. If no one wants to be king, I guess I'll be the king, I guess.

One of the things I found really compelling, so I'm going to have to give it the same weight in this. In the earlier thing is we suddenly got names. We had the people who potentially killed the princes and the tower in. Theory 1. It's a lot of tease. Now we have more names that Matt mentioned there. We have Lambert Simmel and Perkin Warbeck. So these are people we can trace in the archive. Why are they not? Or, well, why in your mind are they not the prince is in the tower? Well, listen, Perkin Warbeck, he's like, hey, what's up? It's your boy, Richard of York. Right. So he's pretending to be the younger fella. Yeah. And he's like, hello. It's me.

Thanks very much. Do they turn up together or separate? No, separately. Separately. So they come to, they come back to England through different routes, sometimes through Ireland, sometimes over from the French lands. And he comes in and he claims that he is Richard of York, which I think is an interesting one. I think it's interesting that he's the younger one.

Yeah, that he's the younger one and not. Yeah. So that's quite interesting. Then we also have Lambert Simnel and he is specifically connected to an uprising in 1487. He doesn't say he's a. Edward the 5th. Okay. He's not coming here and saying, hey, what, it's your boy, it's Edward the 5th, I'm here to become the king. I'm the king. So what's he doing then? Listen, who doesn't enjoy a light uprising? So it is, it is some form of a coup uprising type

situation, well, an attempt at that. But he's not, so who says he's Edward the 5th then? Matt. Which, I mean, that's compelling. I'm compelled, right? But at the time, is that even saying it? No, no. Oh, what? Yeah. So it's like, this is kind of like something that we're coming up with now. Oh. And so some historians now argue that he wouldn't have had the backing that he had, were he not?

If he didn't have that. Exactly. But we don't have somebody at the time saying, your man there that came in, that's actually, so he's not saying it himself. Nobody at the time is saying it. This is something that historians, and I can see why. I can see what you're saying. Because it's a fairly successful uprising. And yeah, and he has the support and who is this person.

is a nobody. But what's also interesting is that it's happening in 1487. So it's not a direct challenge to Richard at all. No, this is a challenge against the Tudors. So, yeah, I think that there is this big differentiation here between Perkin Warbeck, who's like, tis I, Richard, right? And Lambert Simnel, where now we're thinking maybe there might have been something behind it just because he was able to generate a service.

a certain amount of action. But also fundamentally, people don't like them tutors. Yeah. So, you know, it's kind of like fun to poke at them. I still think, though, no, well, yeah, I still think that if Lambert Simnoe, the second one, had been Edward, that we would have something contemporary go, even if it was a way of explained, like written down to say, of course, yes, he's calling himself Lambert Simmel, but we all know in Gloucestershire that this is.

is the actual Edward the fifth or whatever. I mean, it's odd that there's this random man showing up being like, Uprising, let's go. Yeah, weird, but it doesn't necessarily spell the return of a missing king to me. And also, let us be so for real. Of course, like there's some random uprisings. Who the hell is Henry the 7th? Seems like you could just have an uprising.

We've had a whole generation of random uprisings prior to the 1480s. Like, why not? Why not like one for the people? It's just another one. I'm like, oh, so you think that regular peasants can't have an uprising? Come on. I love peasant uprisings. Isn't there something as well about the prince's mother sending his sisters to Richard?

Yeah. And so this is like a good question. It's like, why would she do that if she thought he'd killed her sons? Yeah, this is what I'm, yeah, yeah. And this is, so this is feeds into the idea that. They must have survived because she would never have sent. But I guess it's true. Two things can be true at the same time.

Well, it's like, listen, the girls aren't going to, like, let's be so for real. We are here in the 15th century. Girls can't inherit the throne. Yeah. So we're, and actually what she's doing potentially is ensuring their safety by putting them into the center of power. Everybody look at them. Yeah.

It's like also the worst has already happened, right? Like, here's my daughters. They're over there. There isn't really the same threat to their lives. This isn't, you know, three monarchs later when we have Mary, right? You know, this is, you don't really let women inherit the throne of England yet. Yet. So the danger's just not the same.

It's just not the same. And is it weird? Yeah, but courts weird. Yeah, of course. It makes sense. Yeah. It's like, I mean, the whole thing is a nest of viper is one way or another. The best that you can say about any king is that they're dead, right?

Like, these are not nice people. It is psychotic. Yeah. It is, it's really dangerous. There was a psychosis in the idea of a court. The most dangerous place that you can ever be is at court. Yes, absolutely. So, you know.

Yeah. And so it would make sense, even if she did think or know that, again, that's actually, now that we're having this conversation, it's a very modern take to go, say she even did suspect that Richard had had some way played a part in killing her boys. It wouldn't be that weird for her to go, well, let's make sure that doesn't happen to the rest of the surviving part of the family and that we still have a. place in this new reign. And so girls, off you go. You're going to be our family representatives there now. And it also then adds legitimacy to Richard. And it shows that there's this peacefulness that is between the families, etc, etc.

Exactly. And more to the point, like with this also, it's saying I'm not a threat. Yeah. Like, I'm not going to blow your spot up. I'm not doing anything. Just please be nice to the girls. Can you get them some advantageous marriages? Yes.

Like, no threats over here. We're good. Yeah. You know, so there's multiple ways you can read that. Right. Final, this isn't really, well, it is a theory, but it's potentially some evidence, but it is a theory as well. There have been two sets of skeletons, am I correct? Two sets of skeletons found in or around the tower.

Some people believe one or the other are the skeletons of the princes in the tower. Discuss. Yeah, okay. So the first set of skeletons we find come from 1647. They're rebuilding a staircase in the white tower. And they find a wooden chest 10 feet underground. And it's got two skeletons of children, but are clearly, clearly children.

Okay. Right. Now, come to understand, please, though. This is something to understand. Like, yeah, that's maybe a bit weird. This is also happening during the reign of Charles II. Right. So we have the restoration of the monarchy.

We're back on the throne. And he's very seriously hoping to be like, oh, prestige, prestige. Like, isn't it important to have a king? Wouldn't we all agree? You need a tiny spaniel. You need a king. You do lovely black long locks. Yeah, you need to have all of these things, right?

And so he too much kind of like pomp and circumstance says these are the princes and they are interred at Westminster Abbey, which is the traditional resting place of many monarchs. I see. Right? So, you know, like, Lizzie one is in there, et cetera, et cetera. So he gives them so, okay, just let's recap on that. So I have the timeline correct. Did you say 16, they were discovered first in 1647?

47. So even before Charles I was beheaded in 49, they're discovered. But they kind of just mingle around there while the Republic and the Civil War is all happening. Listen, we had better things to do. Yes, than worry about these two. We were busy doing witch hunts. We were sliding castles. There was all sorts of things.

Knocking Ireland to pieces. Listen. Okay, lots going on. As you say then, Charles I second comes back. There is this restoration of the moniker. They are restored with no new hindrances on their powers. But we have started to see the push forward of parliament in a new way and the birth of in some ways modern party politics starts to emerge at this time.

But in order to still shore up this idea of monarch. you're saying that what he does is, yes, those are the two boys. And now we're going to infuse them with the regal dignity that they were denied in birth. And it gives me an excuse to have some pomp and circumstance again. And aren't I a nice guy? Like, I'm worried about like, oh, these ancestors. Yes, yes, yes. I have like these sensitivities, right?

It's a nice little bit of propaganda and it costs him nothing. Yeah. Like for the price of a tomb, you can get all of this. And you can say what you want because in those days, you're not going to be looking for DNA. Nobody's going to be like. And it adds up narratively. It makes sense. We found the skeleton of two children down some stairs in the tower.

Who else could it be? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So in 1933, we took another squizz at the bones. Yes. And we seemed they're like from around the correct age. Oh, they are? So there has been testing done on those ones.

Early, early. Yeah, I know. I know. I know. You know what I'm saying? You know. So, like, somebody smelled them and we're like, yeah, it smells old. And we haven't done any DNA analysis on them.

On that set of bones, nothing. No. So it's just kind of like, you know, vibes. Yeah. Right place, right time. Charles the second said so, you know, whatever. Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. Now, here's the thing. We got another set of bones. Right. Now, I have been confused around this because, yes, there is another set of bones. When are these found? These are found in 1789. Oh, another revolutionary year.

Mm-hmm. Okay. And these are... God, is there just loads of bones of kids hanging around the Tower of London? Listen, these are not from the Tower of London. Oh, where are these? These are from St. George's Chapel in Windsor, which is where Lizzie, too, is buried. Yes.

Yeah? Okay, so they're there. So they're saying they were transported. Whereas, like, that's kind of like, it is one of, like, the familial resting spots. You know, that is the sort of place that you might go put some bones. Yeah. You know, if you're feeling guilty. Yeah.

Yes. If you're feeling bad. You might be if you've killed two people. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So like that is, that's a place. That's a place.

And these are found because like some workmen are doing a job and they accidentally break Edward the fourth's tomb. And they're like, why are their two coffins of unidentified children in here? Oh, wait. They were in with their dad. Oh. Okay. Didn't realize this.

That's weird. Right. So there's two unidentified. I don't know if they would have been. being able to tell that they were boys at that particular moment in time. But we got, we got two little skeletons of kids in with Edward the fourth. Yeah, that's weird. It's weird.

Yeah. It's a little bit weird. Strange. And what do we, do we know anything about that? Was there a complete genre? The royal family don't want you to like think about it. They're like, please, could you just leave these skeletons alone? You're being weird.

Oh, so there's no, on those two particular ones. Mm-hmm. Mm-mm. So, like, this is, the point is like, we're still kind of debating this. And the thing that is sort of like keeping us from doing that. is the modern royal family, I would argue correctly is like, Jesus Christ, like, leave these remains alone. Yeah.

Right? Like, for the sake of a mystery, could we just, like, not let these skeletons rest in peace, right? And so, that's where we're at. So maybe there are bodies. Charles William, unlike Eleanor. Listen. I am willing to be part of this testing process, because I'm. I'm a nosy, nosy person.

And he's like, do it for the plot. Yeah. I'm like, okay, I get the ethics and I really do and I get it. You are right. I will admit defeat. I will also admit an insatiable curiosity around trying to know something. But no, I get what you're saying. And as I say, you are, you are right.

You are on the right side of this. That's compelling to me, though. Oh, it's compelled me, though. I was a little bit compelled when you're talking about the two that were found in the tower, but now I'm more compelled. I'm more compelled by those ones. Are you? the ones in the tower because

the tower, it's like all sorts of people were living there. Yeah, true. For hundreds upon hundreds of years. And loads of people were killed there. Yeah, and it's like, it's weird or like, who are these kids buried in with their dad? It's odd. I think I know the answer to this now.

I think I've solved it. Well, okay, so do you want to hear my take? Yeah. Okay, look. I don't exactly know, but one thing I do know is them kids did. Yeah. Okay. And part of what makes me say,

this at the very least is even the version of this where we accept that Perkin Warbeck and Lambert Simnel are the princes. Sure. Involves the boys being smuggled out of the tower in the middle of the night by well-wishers. Yeah. Okay. Here's my thing. When I babysit my nieces and nephews.

You've tried to escape with them. No one is like, damn, we better get those kids away from Eleanor right now. Because I fear for their lives. Why, like, if everything is just like completely copacetic and like completely above board in the Tower of London right now, why are we smuggling kids out of there, homie? Like, why do we even need to think to do that? Yeah. If everything's fine.

Oh, that's a good point. This is a key piece of evidence. It's like, okay. And very almost basic. Yeah. In a good way, I mean. No one, but like no one talks about that thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Like, so, you know. Yeah. So, like, smuggling them from what if everything is fine? Yeah. If everything is fine and these kids grew up to be, you know, like leaders of varying rebellions, et cetera, et cetera. Why are we smuggling? Like, you would just be like, okay, yeah, there they are. And also, like, in two Matt's point about, like, what would the kings of Europe have to gain from this?

Well, in the first place, they're the kings of Europe. They're the king of England. They're like, kings of England. That's a king. Oh, yeah. That's a king. like they pick a new king every five minutes over there like they're like he's not talking about me yeah right like and then also a big bunch of the people who are kind of supporting the pretenders so for example

perkin warback he has support from the dukes of burgundy the duchess's aunt and the duchess is like oh yeah for real that's my nephew she hasn't seen him since he was like three okay you know and she's also like the richest woman in europe and people don't like the tutors yeah they don't like the tutors. So it's kind of like, yeah, like, I've got money for that. Like, go annoy the tutors. Like, that'll be, this is going to be funny. Let's see what they do. Right. It's just rich people stuff. It's like rich people's sports. Sure, sure. And she's not a queen. It actually doesn't call anything into question. But equally, she, maybe she sees the, look, I'm total conjecture on my part, but like, you say she's not a queen and she's not. And so she's like, yeah, I got the money to do this.

But I wonder if she's like, well, if we can put them, put that guy on the throne then, but then if we get some actually legit rich blood in there, we can, we can get rid of that. Yeah, like then they're beholden to you and that's all yeah, yeah, quite fine. I don't know who killed these kids or if they simply died. I think that also like one way I would think about it is perhaps they simply died of neglect. They just didn't survive the tower. Yeah, they just didn't survive the tower. Maybe they just weren't treated particularly well.

This is a common way that royal people die when they are under custody. Oh. Right? Oftentimes they're not out and out murdered. They just die. They just die because they're just not being treated very well. These are young kids in an incredibly stressful situation. Their father has just died.

Apparently they're going around saying they're in fear for their life. It's the bloody 15th century. If they get a bad cold, they're just going to fall over and die. I actually just think they're not treated particularly well. Okay. That's kind of like my personal pet one. I don't know that anyone went in there and smothered anyone, but I think those kids are dead. I'm going to agree with you.

I'm so sorry, Matt. Matt, you're so wonderful. Now you only need to buy 50 coffees of queer Georgians. I agree with you. And you know what has there are two children in a tomb with Edward the fourth. I think that's what it has to come down to. And one of the reasons why I'm buying into your theory there of whether or not they were killed, per se, as opposed to just died, would make sense in that their bodies were somewhat honored by placing them in the tomb with their father. And even if they were killed, it's still an honoring of their status, their position, but still going, yeah, I see what you could have been, but I'm going to say they were murdered.

I am. That has to be them, doesn't it? I mean, I don't know. To me, it seems compelling, right? To me, it seems compelling. And like, listen, I want to be clear. I'm not one of these people who is like, and Richard III is a really horrible man, bad man.

Like, let's do all of that. And this is more particularly because I think that all kings are bad, A-Cath with a K. And I think that fundamentally the position of Royalty is a violent one. Yes. That is that is a result of a monopoly on violence. And all kings are terrible people.

Yes. All kings murder dozens, scores of people, whether it's in warfare or that guy stole a sheep or, you know, what have you. I don't find the prince is more compelling than any of those ordinary people that we will never hear from. Yeah. So even were these kids killed, I don't think that makes him necessarily a worse king than anybody else. You know, there are terrible monarchs all over Europe who are doing absolutely abysmal things constantly and we don't bring it up. And it is, as Matt pointed out, a result of this ridiculous kind of tutor and Victorian sentimentality that we dwell on this story the way we do. In many ways, I feel about Richard III, the same way that I feel about King's.

Stephen, he got there first. Yeah, sure, sure. And that makes him the king. That's the name of the game. Exactly. Didn't make it to the altar. Didn't get the sacrificial, we're not sacred. Didn't get the consecrational oils or whatever.

So it's, yeah, I see. It's a way to be king. Yep. It's a legitimate way to be king what he does, what Richard the third. Or if he does. Or does it. Yeah, sure, exactly. If he does that.

I don't know. Like, I think the only way we're really going to get closure on would be if we do DNA analysis on either of these skeletons and it comes up conclusively to be then. Otherwise, there isn't a way to solve this. And I also think that, like, as historians, we have to become comfortable with that. You know, we don't get to have an answer to everything. No, we have to meet these stories and histories where they are. They don't need to work for us.

Still, though, Charles and William, if you want to, send me a WhatsApp. Get at us. I'm not a medievalist. Sound off in the comments. can we come over? I just want to talk. I feel like Catherine and I would get on. Now, listen, I think do away with the monarchy.

I don't understand it. I'm Irish, obviously, and I do think it's a form of psychosis that monarchy is. That said, I do feel like I get on with Catherine. She's lovely gowns. She has really nice gowns, doesn't she? I bet you she's good crack. And I know she might not seem it in the work, but I bet you she's good crack. And I feel like I could bring the crack out in her a little bit more.

Like. Based on nothing. Okay, come down pub. Yeah, exactly. That's what I mean. And like, just let's sack them all off and we won't go there. Listen. Listen.

You'll go over to the West of Ireland for a while. Just, you know, we don't need to, we don't need to bring all the entourage and everything. I mean, you probably do for your safety. But you'll be grand. It just, I don't know, I don't know. It's, it's, but nonetheless, they remain a compelling institution. Here we are, 26. And they are headline news still in the same way that, that this is happening in the 15th century.

And so, you know, we're having a lot of conversations right now. And my second book feeds into this. But we have a lot of conversations right now about the survival of their monarchy. I see no clues, despite any personal Republican meetings that I might have. I see no clues right now and this day, the 27th of February that we're recording this, 2026, that the institution of monarchy is in any real danger. I think we are on the verge of seeing what will look on the surface of it like radical reform in the next generation. but there will be a king after Charles.

William will be king unless something, you know, totally unforeseen or catastrophic happens. I don't see it going anywhere. I don't think that like any of the current princes are getting knocked off. No. No. And if they do, you know where it comes. Right.

That's unsolved. That one then. People can stop talking about this now. Listen, you know, we're fine. We're done. Do you wish they would as a medievalist? Are you a bit like, oh, I'm done with that. one. Well, I guess my thing about it is I don't get it because again, I don't care about kings.

I like regular people. I think Lambert Simmel is more interesting if he isn't a prince. Sure, sure. Well, I mean, that is insane. That's my take. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, like, I mean, I'm much more interested in everyday people. Again, ACAB with a K, all kings are bastards. I don't want to know about them or care about them. And I don't feel the need to stick up for them because... They don't need anyone to stick up for them. They're fine. They're fine.

They're absolutely okay. Right. On that, we will leave you to it. Thank you for joining us for this world-changing discussion. The medieval field. You're welcome. The medieval field is now our peace that this mystery has been solved. Those boys are in that tomb with their dad.

If you've enjoyed this episode, you can go and actually watch the conversation on YouTube. We have our YouTube channel go over there. You can come and see me. on my social media channel, Anthony Delaney History. Eleanor, where can they find you? Dr. Eleanor Yonaga. So you can hang out with us there. Leave us a five-star review wherever you get your podcasts on both Gone Medieval and After Dark

because it helps people find us and discover us and hear more problem-solving the escapades that we take part in. Write to us at After Dark at HistoryHit.com, particularly, do you guys do this Gone Medieval in case? Yeah, absolutely, yeah. You can get us at Gone Medieval at HistoryHit.com. I see a pattern. It's crazy, isn't it? It's like we work for the same production company. If you have any subjects, topics that you would like us to cover,

then you can get in touch on either one of those there. And we will have our producers go through them. They look at them and we talk about them as well. So they may well make it to air. I will let you go. Thank you. Have a good day. Have a good night.

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