After Party with Emily Jashinsky - Biden Scandal That’s Worse Than Watergate, Demonic Dangers, and Jennifer Welch’s Hateful but Effective Message

Episode Date: October 30, 2025

Emily Jashinsky opens the show with a look at the stunning new reporting on the Biden administration’s efforts to spy on nearly 200 businesses and individuals in what Emily describes as Lois Lerner on steroids.  Emily details the way the DOJ and FBI targeted political opponents under the guise of Trump investigations and argues this is historically unprecedented.  Then Emily is joined by Billy Hallowell, CBN host and author of “Playing with Fire: A Modern Investigation into Demons, Exorcism, and Ghosts,” for a fascinating Halloween-themed episode. Hallowell is an expert on the supernatural and the two discuss everything from Joe Rogan’s comments on the historical facts surrounding Jesus’ life, to the Etsy witch curse on Charlie Kirk, the importance of understanding the spiritual world, the dangers of AI, aliens, and a message for anyone who thinks this is all ‘kooky.’ Emily wraps up the show with an important message on Jennifer Welch and why the Democratic establishment better pay attention. Unplugged: Switching is simple, Visit https://Unplugged.com/EMILY and order your UP phone today! Cozy Earth: Visit https://cozyearth.com for up to 40% off with code EMILY. Masa Chips: Go to https://MASAChips.com/AFTERPARTY and use code AFTERPARTY for 25% off your first order. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Welcome to After Party. Tonight's show is going to be something of a Halloween special. The authors of one of my very favorite books on The Supernatural Billy Hallowell joins us. I've had this book for so long. When we started doing the show in June, I was like, let's get Billy on for a Halloween show. So Billy is going to be with us in just a moment to go through some of the questions that are arising now amidst a pretty obvious Christian spiritual revival in the United States and maybe scratch the itch of some of the questions that you have. Because Billy wrote this great book, called Playing with Fire not long ago. The subheading was a modern investigation into demons, exorcism, and ghosts, and that's really what it was. So I'm going to sort of throw some questions at Billy about K-pop demon hunters, obviously. Etsy witches, because I know everyone can't get enough of that.

And some different things in the news, AI psychosis, lots to come. Before we get into that, I am going to start with the stunning revelations in the Arctic Frost case today. And you're going to have to bear with me on this because I actually want to show documents on the screen as we go through the revelations from the Senate Judiciary Committee and Chuck Grassley that just happened hours ago. I think what we got today were historic documents. I think this is a landmark moment. And I think it demands a new church

committee era, if not a new church committee itself. So let's start actually on that note. On April 13th, 2022, you may remember this. Let me put it up on the screen. In fact, this is a document from the FBI. This is an email from someone at the FBI, a lawyer at the FBI, that said, cases open. Headline. Arctic Frost open. So that's April 13th, 2022. Now, in November of that year, just months later, literally the same week that Donald Trump announced he would run again for the United States, then Attorney General Merrick Garland appointed Jack Smith to take over the Biden Department of Justice's investigation into Trump's retention. of classified documents, and this is key, January 6th.

What we learned today is stunning. It might not be surprising, but it's stunning and it's historic. The breadth of Arctic frost blows the lowest learner scandal out of the water, and I really mean that. This is lowest learner on steroids. Lowest learners politicized IRS on steroids. Today, Grassley and the Senate Judiciary Committee, as I mentioned earlier, released this massive,

of trance of documents containing subpoenas from Smith to, here are the numbers, 163 businesses, and 34 individuals for three things, testimony, communications, and records related to, here's another number, a big number, another big number, 430 Republican individuals and entities, according to Grassley. These documents are sourced actually to a whistleblower. That is another important part of this. They were not given to Grassley by the FBI, and you could practically hear at a press conference that the Senate judiciary held earlier today, you could practically hear the senators pleading in their voices with Patel and Attorney General Pam Bondi to get going on releasing more and more information. And that's important. Senator Johnson actually at this

press conference said he believed that both of those departments, FBI and more broadly the Department of Justice, have been compromised from the inside by people who are seeking to undermine the right. So let's listen to how Chuck Grassley, described these whistleblower documents and the plot essentially that they reveal with S-1 here. I've recently been informed by Verizon that at least 11 members with Verizon accounts were affected. That includes a hard line for Senator Cruz's office and a staffer's cell phone for former

Senator Leffler. AT&T informed me. They challenged the legal basis for Jack Smith's efforts, and Smith back down. Okay. A hard line to Senator Ted Cruz's office. Jack Smith wanted the records for an office line at Senator Ted Cruz, Republican Senators' office. So this is also non-profits, So think of like attorney point USA and close allies. Think of Stephen Miller. Think of Russ

vote. Before they were in the second administration, that's really key to. So it's subpoenas, get this. I'm just going to put this up on the screen actually. This is the document that compiles a summary of the subpoena. So if you're not watching that, what I'm not watching this, what I'm going through is essentially an Excel spreadsheet. That's 21 pages long, at least on my piece. PDF format. It's 197 subpoenas. And you can see going through, this is again, nonprofits like the Conservative Partnership Institute, they are looking for their bank records. They are looking for their subpoenaing places like Bank of America. They are subpoenaing the payroll. They subpoenaing ADP for the payroll information of nonprofits. They subpoenaed, think about this, their contacts

with the media. They subpoenaed a Republican-aligned or Trump-aligned consulting firm, Jamison Partners, for its contact with CBS, Fox News, Sinclair. I know a lot of the people in the groups involved in this. A lot of them are just normal human beings who are here in D.C. to pursue policies as Christian conservatives and would not hurt a fly. But more broadly, this is about the people around the country who support them that were targeted by this special counsel, who you'll remember was appointed actually to, by Merrick Garland, to avoid looking like there was a conflict of interest in the investigation. And this is where Republican senators are going to want a whole lot more information. And in fact, they called for it already. And I'm just actually going to go ahead and

put the subpoenas up on the screen because, you know, when you look at these, when you look at the documents, which I would encourage everybody go to the Senate Judiciary website. I know that's probably not on your homepage. But if you go to the website and look through these documents, you can see the subpoenas themselves. And it just, again, I'm looking at a 1,730 page document right now of the 197 subpoenas that Grassley obtained via this whistleblower. And the breadth of them is incredible.

Incredible. Again, I have a lot of friends and I know a lot of groups that are wrapped up in this. So I'm not going to be an objective and dispassion. source here, but I've covered the FBI, and I have never seen anything like this. Senator Cruz mentioned, and Senator Grassley mentioned just there, that AT&T rejected Jack Smith's subpoena because their lawyer told them it was obviously protected speech by the speech and debate clause. And that is very obviously the case. You may not even like Ted Cruz, and you should understand this is protected speech that was subpoenaed, protected activity,

that was subpoenaed by Jack Smith, who was appointed by a Democratic Attorney General. They asked for geolocation data, geolocation data. Verizon, according to Senator Marshall Blackburn, actually did turn over the investigation, or the subpoena, the materials requested by the subpoena. So there was not agreement between AT&T and Verizon. And here's a bigger point as well. Many people do take as gospel the idea that there was a, quote, fake electors scheme. That is not true.

That has been misrepresented by the media and the idea that it warranted a criminal investigation, let alone one of this scale and scope, is ridiculous. And I didn't agree with it, by the way, at the time, and I don't agree with it now. But what senators who were surveilled were debating was obviously protected activity, obviously protected. activity and you should want it to be protected activity. If you ever think that it needs to be protected activity, which you may at some point. And even if it was not protected, the scope of the subpoenas released today is damning and completely intolerable. What actually happened was similar to 1960 in Hawaii. And if you haven't read Margo Cleveland on this, she has a great piece over at the Federalist. And I think it was from a couple of years ago at this point. But here's actually a document

Margo pointed to in that piece. This is in the congressional record. It's from Patsy Mink of Hawaii on December 13, 2000, using the 1960 Hawaii precedent, which would be called, quote, fake electors today, that is in the Kennedy Nixon election, essentially what happened was similar to what happened in 1960 in Hawaii, what happened in 2020. So a pending lawsuit charged that Georgia had certified votes that were improperly cast. So GOP electors met to cast their votes for Trump to keep the legal battle viable. There was chatter, as you see, in this Mink congressional record, document from Democrats about doing something similar with Florida in Bush v. Gore. Again, I didn't agree with it. Didn't agree with it then. Don't agree with it now. And I'm saying all of

this as someone about that, someone who thinks that, thinks that about all of this, somebody who thinks that one of Trump's gravest political errors was talking the way that he did after the 2020 election. And listen, Time magazine obviously itself reported on the objective rigging effort. my former boss, and my boss at the time, Molly Hemingway, had an exhaustive book called Rigged on all of that. But, you know, I didn't like then. I don't like now the flirtation with voting machine, speculation and all of that stuff.

And I thought all of that was an error. Even so, this was not criminal. It was not criminal. And it certainly did not warrant subpoenas on his Grassley put it, nearly the entire Republican political apparatus. So Trump-aligned consultants, people like Andrew Sarabian, and their contacts in the press. Conservative nonprofits that probed election integrity,

Trump advisors like Stephen Miller, Russ Vote, and their groups, documents released from the FBI to Jim Jordan yesterday. Check this one out. I'm going to put it up on the screen in case you haven't seen it yet. This is insane. This is insane.

This is from Monday, September 12th, 2020. It is an email from one FBI email address to another. Lots of redactions on it, by the way. This was turned over from the FBI to Jim Jordan. would love to see it without so many redactions. But basically it's accusing Ed Corrigan of the Conservative Partnership Institute, who is a great person. They're saying he's pro-Pooten and anti-Biden.

Why would the FBI care if he's anti-Biden? That's a great question. They say, a colleague somewhere somewhere, consider what Corrigan is doing, quote, treason. They believe that Corrigan is building up infrastructure to train people for the civil war. Again, this is Bluonon. blue and on low IQ bullshit with the force of the FBI behind it.

It's completely insane. And what this suggests is that someone on the right was informing on Ed Corrigan and others at the FBI's encouragement. You see at the bottom here, blank thinks that blank would be willing to talk to the FBI. This is Hoover-style disruption of protected political activity. That's what it is. Seeking to undermine the right by bankrupting it with lawsuits. So the punishment is the process. Fementing division with informants and then fishing for crimes.

So if you're upset about things like the NSPM 7 and planned Trump surveillance of left-wing groups, you should be upset about this because the scope is almost unfathomable, apart from the fever dreams of democratic lawyers. As with Russia collusion, media double standards that downplay, ignore, or lie about the story are just going to radicalize the right. They are. This is historic. It's the defining scandal,

the Biden presidency, I should say, and it's worse than the Biden age cover-up. It might be connected with the Biden-age cover-up that the man who ran on restoring civility and norms and decency ended up with the lowest-learner scandal on steroids in his own lap. Was he making the calls? I don't know. That's what senators are going to call a lot of witnesses to testify about as long as they control the upper chamber.

So we need more information about this. We need redactions removed. And we need a new church committee, frankly. We need a new church committee. So on that note, it left me almost speechless as I was scrolling these documents today. It's just completely insane. Completely, completely crazy stuff. And to not see this blanketed all over the media, even though, again, CBS,

contacts with political consultants, likely sources, phone records were targeted in this probe. Like I said, it's Hoover-esque. So for this, though, I'm going to look something up here on the media. I am going to use my up phone by unplugged. I'm going to do it for secure search segment. So it's a way to search for whatever you need the answer to while knowing your personal information stays personal and private with no data mining and hidden trackers. you can understand why for a journalist who is reading the stories here about Jack Smith subpoenaing media contacts with consultants, like I said earlier, sources, that might be a little bit interesting.

Okay. So what I'm going to do here is look to see if the FBI has released any information about this Arctic Frost revelation yet. Okay. What has the FBI said? I definitely prefer to be using secure search when I'm looking on the FBI's website. Again, pretty understandable. Pretty understandable. Okay, so there's nothing on FBI.gov about it yet, but there is FBI documents that were released, as I mentioned, the Ed Corrigan ones from a couple of days ago. So that's really helpful to know because I would want to, in the segment, include a statement from the FBI if they had put out a press release. So this has been secure search using my up phone by Unplugged. So if you're ready to take back your digital privacy, even if you're not a journalist, you genuinely never know how this stuff is going to be used. It just builds up and up over time and creates an even more detailed picture of who you are. So visit Unplugged.com slash Emily and get $25 off a phone case with a purchase of a phone.

Learn more and order your Up Phone today. That's unplugged.com slash Emily. Great timing for that ad, by the way. Right after a segment about wildly improper FBI surveillance of people's phones and their phone records. Now for the segment I've been waiting for months. Let's bring in Billy Hallowell. Billy is the author of one of my favorite books on The Supernatural, Playing with Fire, A Modern Investigation into Demons, Exorcism, and Ghosts.

Billy also hosts a great podcast that I'm actually just going to. to have him plug right now so that you get even more enticed. Billy, thank you for being here and tell people where they can find this podcast. Most excited about, there are two. One is called Quick Start. It's a daily news podcast at CBN. But the other one that I really love is called Into the Supernatural. So good.

And I co-host that with Jen Lilly, who's an actress, which is kind of wild. And we talk all about supernatural things through a Christian lens. And so you can find it on YouTube or wherever podcasts are heard. Jen was in Supernatural, wasn't she? Like literally the show. I think she might have been. She's been in everything, so she might have been. I don't even know. I don't even know. But Jen is incredibly smart. She knows theology so well. And I think it would surprise people. I was like, oh, who's this actress who's talking about deliverance and, you know, healing and all this stuff. But that show into the supernatural has been such a blast to do. Well, I actually want to start with that, because you wrote Playing with Fire a couple of years ago. And I recommend it to people all of the time for like a really, incredible, clear-eyed glimpse into, or glimpse at the sort of scriptural perspective on some of these really, really fascinating, complicated, and dark issues that does not dabble needlessly in the

macabre. So on that point, Billy, this is all started, it seems like more and more people are realizing that this is interesting to the American public at a level it hadn't been before. I feel like you were ahead of that curve. Tell us what you were picking up on then and what you're seeing now. Yeah, you know, it's interesting. I was picked. up on the fact that culture is out of control. It is crazy. And I wrote this book in 2020, and as I was working on it from 2018 to 2019, I was thinking, why are so many churches not talking about this topic when you've got Hollywood talking about it, right? You've got every single October since I can remember, and going back to the 1970s, movies about

exorcism, movies about all these sort of like church topics and evil. And you've got Hollywood talking about that, and you've got a lot of Christians and churches not talking about it. So one of my motivations was sort of like, okay, let's go in and look at this and see what is actually happening, because if these things are real, which as a Christian, I believe they are, then we need to understand them. We shouldn't be walking around pretending it's not happening. And so I started noticing those patterns, and now you flash forward to 2025. And I think there is no doubt for all of us, watching the events that continue to happen, you know, Charlie Kurt's death down the line, that evil is a very real thing. And we're seeing it in front of us. And it is shocking to some

many people, and they wonder, well, where is that coming from? And so for me, it was sort of that quest of trying to understand, well, where is that evil actually rooted in coming from? Right. Evil is not obviously just a character trait. It has supernatural roots. And on that note, let's roll this clip actually of Joe Rogan talking to Constantine Gissen on a podcast last week about Christianity. This is a good place to start because I think it'll help us lay a foundation for the rest of the discussion. So we can go ahead and roll S4 here. And Christianity in particular is the most fascinating to me because there's this one person that everybody agrees existed that somehow or another had the best plan for how a human being should interact with each other and behave and was the best example of it and even died in a nonviolent, like it didn't even protest died on the cross supposedly far since. Like it's a fascinating story.

Right, but it's a historical human being too, though. It's a historically documented human being. That's where it gets weird. Because there's a universal depiction of what this human being was like. That doesn't seem to vary that much between all the people that knew them. That gets weird. A couple of things there, Billy. It is weird.

It is weird. And when Christians dominated American culture, it wasn't depicted as so weird because kind of everybody believed in it. But now we're sort of in the negative world as Aaron Wren describes it. And it appropriately looks very weird now. And the cry story is a supernatural story. And I feel like that's such a hurdle, understandably, in this like peak modern period for people to get over

when they've been sort of conditioned to see the world in this kind of antiseptic way, where everything is just, everything is, you know, kind of boring, to be honest, Billy. So tell us just as you have been doing the podcast, as you've had this book, Are you encountering more people who are thinking like Rogan? Absolutely. And I think what has happened. And I don't want to oversimplify it, but I think one of the big things is that for years,

we've been telling all these young people, you know, Gen Z, I'm an elderly millennial, right? So for me, I'm on the upper end of the millennial scale. But for Gen Z, they were the first generation after millennials that really were brought up with relativism. It was sort of like, believe whatever you want, think whatever you want. You know, there's no real objective truth. It's just sort of like your own. it's just sort of like your own whim.

You do whatever you want to do. And that has proven to not work. And so you have all these young people who were brought up until they're 17, 18 years old, and they've tried everything and none of it's making sense. And they're looking out at a crazy world. And they're like, wait a minute, there has to be a real answer somewhere. Where is it? And with that, I think that's why we're watching so many young people discover the Bible,

discover Christianity, because they're looking for an answer right now after being lied to for so long. And so I'm encountering that. I'm seeing that. I just, the other project I just worked on, and I would love for people, if you go to supernatural movie.com, Oh, yeah, this was good.

Yeah, documentary about, which I know you saw, I'm called investigating the supernatural miracles. And so I spent the year looking at miracles, which is kind of the other side of evil. And spoiler alert, we are doing a follow-up called investigating the supernatural angels and demons,

and that will come out in March, looking at the other side of this. But I have been steeped in sort of looking at these supernatural topics, and I think a lot of other people are opening themselves to it because they're recognizing that we're not living actually in this really boring material world. We're living in a world that is filled with a spiritual battle and we're actually watching that play out in front of us.

Right, and you certainly don't have to be crazy to believe in any of that as, you know, this. There's actually in your investigation on the supernatural, the documentary, there's scientists that have really fascinating, stories and perspectives who didn't want to believe, many such cases, Billy. Let's talk about Charlie Kirk because his wife, Erica, is giving a speech actually on campus right as we are speaking. But F7, if we put it up on the screen, this was a Wall Street Journal report that said sales of Bibles soared in the weeks after the fatal shooting of conservative political

activists and author Charlie Kirk. There were 2.4 million Bibles sold in the U.S. in September, a 36 percent jump over the same month of 2024. According to the book tracker, Sir Canna BookScan. It marked the biggest month of Bible sales so far this year. Now, when Charlie passed away, it became known. Megan Kelly herself heard this, that after Jezebel published its now infamous Etsy Witch story about how they paid witches on Etsy, which, by the way, is quite a thing. We can put F4 up on the screen. This was a profile of Etsy witches in the week from shortly after Charlie passed away

that reported they've had a, quote, serious rebrand in the last few decades. Gone are the days of being social pariahs. The expansive and multidimensional depiction of witches in pop culture has brought with it a more positive view of witchcraft. So they are all over places like Etsy. And what became known to the public is that Erica Kirk was so disturbed by this story. She had people to pray over Charlie the night before his death. There was one of these spells, you know, seemingly as a joke, but this stuff really isn't that funny. When you have a kind of supernatural lens on saying that they wanted Charlie's head to pop off, something to that extent, Billy. So talk to us about, you know, this, this, these are what,

30-somethings, Charlie and Erica Kirk, millennials, not elderly millennials like you, Billy, but people who were raised to really distrust anyone to anyone who kind of talked like that. but we've heard reports of exorcisms from priests going to record levels. There does seem to be a more obvious or more overt reckoning with the spiritual battle in the public. How did you react to that timeline? You know, the timeline, I'm not going to lie, gave me chills, right? The timeline gave me chills. I think there are a couple of things here.

You know, one of the things that strikes me about the Bible is a lot of people who are skeptics, They might say, or even for Christians, they might assume, well, the Bible probably says that witchcraft and psychics and all these things aren't real, that that doesn't matter, don't worry about it. That's not what the Bible says. The Bible says it's real and don't engage in it. It is real and don't play with it. We see that throughout scripture, and we can talk about some of the possession stories,

but in the Old Testament in particular, practicing those things was punishable by very severe retribution, you know, and so you were not supposed to be doing those things or engaging in those things. It's not denied. It is very real. And so when I saw the story about Charlie, I was, and when I saw Megan confirm some of those details about people coming the night before, you know, I thought to myself, I don't believe that evil can touch a Christian, right?

But I do think that timeline, true evil. Now, that doesn't mean you can't be oppressed or you can't struggle in oppression is when evil's trying to push in on you or put ideas into your head. A Christian can't be fully possessed, right? Like we see in movies and in scripture. But it did make me wonder. I mean, what kind of person, and the outlet, I'm not even going to name the outlet, obviously, you might have, and I might have missed it. No, no, no, it's fine. I mean, it was Jezebel, right? They obviously, interesting name, right, considering the biblical character of Jezebel, that they would go out and that they would actually think it was appropriate. And they had sent, they've since pulled the story to, you know, hire witches on Etsy to put a hex on anyone is disturbing. And it's not funny and it's not a joke. And so I don't know what to make of the timeline, but the timeline did give me.

me chills. And it's just, look, no matter where you stand on this, the severity of trying to hire witches to go after somebody to harm them or, you know, do something even minimal to them is very disturbing to me and heartbreaking. And it's not something that we should take lightly. Yes. I'm really glad that you address the theological question here because obviously the Bible tells Christians put on the full armor of God. And there's scripture to the effect that Christians cannot be affected, influenced by, which is, casting spells at the same time other people can be. So is Tyler Robinson somebody who's affected by that? I don't know, Billy. Is that possibly one way just theologically to square the circle?

You know what? And I think a lot of people are going to have a lot of different views on this, but I would actually say yes. I mean, this is the interesting thing. Human beings have free will, right? You have free will. And I don't know what the alleged shooter got himself involved in. all I know is the act of what happened to Charlie is one of the most evil things that I think any of us have watched happen. We all saw it. I can't unsee it. I would love to unsee it.

I wish it didn't happen. But when somebody does something like that, I believe many times they are dealing with a situation where they have encountered a demonic force, a demon, they're doing something that is evil. They've been influenced in some way. So to your point, it's an interesting dynamic to consider that the person perpetuating a crime because of evil and free will could actually choose to do something to harm someone,

that person may be protected. And I know this sounds like an oxymoron. The demons can't get to that person directly, but that somebody else could, hypothetically, get to them as a result of compromising themselves in that way. So I think, theoretically, there's an argument to be made there. And I don't know, again, what happened in this circumstance. I do know that I have spent two months now

trying to make sense of it and trying to unsee it. Like I think we all have. It's been an incredibly painful and difficult situation, but one that is important for us to be talking about, obviously. Yeah, no, I agree, even though it's, it is so hard to talk about, speaking of media coverage that I think reflects the mentality, you and I have been discussing this sort of casualness. And maybe there's a, there's something darkly intriguing about witches or there's something that falls into the broader self-help category and people kind of longing to find some, some way to make sense. of a world that seems senseless so often. This is a recent article, just the last couple of days, from today.

So NBC, its headline was, are witches real? It goes on to say, in fact, in fact, you might be surprised to find out that witches are pretty much everywhere. You just may not be aware of them. In real life, however, witchcraft is much more focused on rituals, ceremonies, and the changing of the seasons. Those are just a couple excerpts from this, Billy. Let me ask, do you agree with today?

day. That witches are pretty much everywhere. You just may not be aware of them. What is a witch in 2025? Are we surrounded by witches? Oh my gosh. I mean, you know, I don't know a lot of witches personally, but there are people out there who practice witchcraft. And I think here's the thing. This is the most important thing. Do we have the numbers on it? There may be people who self-identify, but a lot of people will say, well, I'm wikian and I'm, you know, it's white witchcraft. It's good witchcraft. Look, the Bible says there is no good witchcraft. So you may think that you're engaging in something that is positive and good, there are many people out there who do practice these things. And I would actually argue, look, there are psychics, there are mediums.

Does that mean everybody claiming to be a psychic or a medium actually is able to do that? And what I mean by able to do that is they've actually encountered the demonic in some way that is given them, quote unquote, power? No, not everyone, but there are a lot of people out there. This is why you drive down the street and you see psychic mediums. You see tarot card readers. There are people engaging in this, and that is a form of witchcraft. And so it does exist.

You know, do I think they're everywhere? No, but they're in a lot of places. And look, the most important and interesting part, I shouldn't say the most important, one of the most important, intriguing parts of the Bible is Ephesion 6. And I never really thought about this until I was working on playing with fire. It talks about a spiritual battle that human beings, and I think this is so interesting in light of what you and I talk about for a living in news and media, that human beings are so fixated on this battle between, you know, me and you and people and full.

and blood, but that the real battle is not between people. The real battle that exists is actually a spiritual one. It's between good and evil, and it pours over into our world. And I think right now, that's not a new problem since the beginning of human history that has happened. We're watching, though, I think that issue really expedite. We're really feeling that good and that evil pull on our world right now, and we're seeing the revival happen. And we're also seeing things like what happened to Charlie Kirk, which ironically sparked revival in so many ways. So there's a lot to unpack there, but I think that is really important for people to understand what the real battle actually is. Well, I always loved that the topic of your book was playing with fire, because it

personally just made me reconsider the way that I engaged with some of the content. Like, I was always fascinated by, as a lot of people, especially as a lot of women, are fascinated by true crime stories, but particularly when you get into like the supernatural, things, like stories. I love them because they often reveal great history that doesn't get told anywhere else, like ghost stories. If you go on a ghost tour in a city, you'll often get like better history than if you go on a regular history tour, but I don't do those anymore, Billy, because I was persuaded by your book playing with fire that you really are doing just that when you kind of dabble or think too long, too hard about the, maybe the romance of

the darkness. And I'm curious if you could just, you know, baseline for people who are maybe like me, just sort of at the time, normies who consume a lot of that type of stuff. You know, a lot of people are super flippant about Ouija boards, as you've written about fascinating history of the Ouija board itself. But there's just a kind of flippancy that we've been conditioned to approach these questions with and a romance that we've been conditioned to approach these questions with. How should people think of them? Is there something truly unsafe about dwelling on those topics? No, I love that you asked that because I used to be like you. I mean, years ago, even growing up in a Christian home, I was really intrigued by all these things. I watched all the movies.

I never played with a Ouija board because I was always told, you know, growing up in a Christian home, don't do that. But it was something that intrigued me deeply. And I think actually, probably there was some spiritual element to that because I knew I wasn't supposed to do it, but yet was attracted to to those things, but came to a place of realization that you can open all sorts of doors. There's a reason that the Bible talks about not engaging in these things. The Ouija board, the history of the Ouija board is absolutely wild. When I was working on the book and I was going through that history, I thought to myself, there is no way this is all true and real.

And I'm pulling things up from the New York Times and the Washington Post, and I'm reading this history from the 1930s. And back then, the way that newspapers talked about talking boards, which is a Ouija board, it was fascinating because there was much more of a belief in it back then. Now we've turned this into a parlor game. I was at a kid's store the other day, and there were regi boards that were pink, and they were really, they looked pretty. Right. They're targeting kids, right?

So this is actually very dangerous, because what are you doing is you're opening up doors to really the demonic realm. You think you're talking to the dead. You're not talking to the dead. You're talking to the demonic. And so that may sound funny or weird to people, like, what are you talking about? but I can tell you there are so many credible stories. I cover some of them in the book of people who have opened up Pandora's box by engaging not just in the Ouija board, but tarot cards. I know plenty of former psychics who have become Christians and left that world and they will tell

you that they thought they were helping people. They thought that they were actually, you know, helping people connect with their dead loved ones when in reality they were communing with the demonic. And so, look, even watching really intense films all the time on these topics, it can open you up to all sorts of struggles and issues. And so we want to be careful with that. You know, there's no room for darkness if you claim to embrace the light, right? And so if we love Jesus or look, maybe you're not a Christian,

but even if you're not, do not engage those things because they are very real and they are very dangerous. Well, Billy, you and your work have encountered many people who were not Christians until, and maybe some of the hyper-rationalists, people who believe in like capital S science, which neither of us believes is incompatible with us. our faith, but people who never would have seen the compatibility there, sort of maybe hostile in some

cases, who have had these encounters and their minds have changed. Am I wrong? Or have you encountered just those types of cases? You are not wrong. I mean, there are so many people who actually become Christians as a result of dealing with evil. It actually becomes this weird evangelistic tool for people where they, you know, they, I mean, I can think of one woman, and I believe I've shared this story with you in the past. I know you've read it in the book. Her name was Amy, and she was a nurse, and she was working in a hospital. She thought she was a Christian, and this is interesting. And I don't know what was in her heart at the time, but she was a churchgoer.

But she ended up getting sick while working on a shift at the hospital. And long story short, went home, thought it was a bug. But she couldn't even walk in a straight line. And within a couple of weeks, lost her mind entirely, was brought to the hospital, brought to mental institutions, lost her job. And she ended up being consumed with wanting to end her own life. and was dealing with, she was basically possessed essentially. This story just is so wild to me.

The way she describes it is at one point she was so desperate with these thoughts in her head of ending her life that she sat on the like the window sill. So picture facing inside of your house. She sits on the window sill and just drops herself out of a second story window, hoping to die. And to this day, Amy is wheelchair bound because of this. But while she was hospitalized, a woman came and performed a deliverance. which is a healing. It's sort of like an exorcism over her. And she was completely healed of the

demonic issues that she faced and now is completely clear-minded and healthy and is sharing her story. So there are people like that who their experiences have actually brought them to faith. That is so interesting. I have more questions for Billy. We're going to take a really quick break. And I would say non-Christian listeners, stick around because there'll be even more for you right after this break. First, though, if you know that feeling like when you find the perfect gift, the one that people actually use every single day. That is cozy Earth. I love their bamboo pajama set. Unbelievably soft, lightweight, and cool to the touch. It is that rare mix of cozy and breathable, so you just never overheat, which are so important. It's become a go-to for

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Fire and also host of the podcast, well, host of two podcasts. The one, if you're especially interested in what we're talking about here, it's called Into the Supernatural. It's super, super fascinating. Billy, thanks again for coming back and talking to us. Let me put this article on the screen about Halloween. This is a big spread in the New York Times today. Have Halloween decorations become too scary? That's the headline. The skeletons are taller, the witches seem to be more lifelike, and the blood and gore is more plentiful.

Billy, have you noticed that as someone who, again, like as a journalist, covers the darkness and supernatural, and particularly you're busy around Halloween time? Have you noticed this at all? Oh, my gosh, it's, yes. I think one of the things, even walking around my own neighborhood that has been so disturbing to me is the size of the decorations, the look of them, the intensity of them.

It's almost like the reverse of Christmas. And it's ironic because a lot of people joke that, you know, once the clock strikes midnight on October 31st, the Christmas decorations are coming up. But yet what is leading up to that is some of the darkest stuff I have ever seen. And the last five years I've really noticed it. But the last two years, I've thought to myself, why are we putting those giant skeletons,

but really the really terrifying bloody things that we're seeing? And I actually was walking. I do a prayer walk every morning, and so I'm walking through my neighborhood, and I'm praying, and I'm looking at this stuff, and I'm thinking, five years ago, this stuff was not in my neighborhood. It was not there. I did not see it. Maybe one or two houses, but the fact that it has become so prevalent, we have to ask ourselves,

what is it about blood and gore and these evil images that so many people want to see? Is it really fun? Like, what is it about this? That in any other context, we wouldn't be okay with it, but because it's Halloween, we're actually putting this stuff in our front yard. So I would actually argue, yeah, I think it's become more terrifying. And here's the interesting thing about it. It almost reflects what we're watching happen in the culture. The culture has devolved in such a way that we have people who actually rejoiced over the killing of Charlie Kirk. I mean, think about this. Things that we are watching

happen in culture, there's a lot of good things too. Don't get me wrong. There's that Ephesian 6th battle. but we've devolved in such a way that I think our Halloween decorations actually reflect what is happening spiritually in some strange way in the country. So yeah, I think it's incredibly disturbing. I don't understand why anybody would engage in it. Yeah, the sort of dark rising as the light rises, I guess I was talking to a friend earlier today, Billy, and she said something really poignant that it feels like the veil has become thinner in recent years. And I don't know, Theologically, I haven't thought that much. I just had this conversation a few hours ago. I don't know Theologically if there's standing for that.

But it does, I mean, why? That'll be my question to you. Like, why do you think we're seeing more blood and gore just in Halloween decorations and then in the culture broadly? Yeah, you know, look, I mean, human beings have a history of doing strange things. And, you know, evil is not a new issue. I think we've seen, especially in the last 100 years, the things that have happened from the Holocaust down the line. But I do wonder, and I'm going to get a little strange here, so bear with me, everyone. Let's do it. Let's do it. You know, I do wonder, the vow was pretty thin when Jesus first came. If you read the scriptures, you read the gospels, that vow was thin. We see Satan himself tempting Jesus. We see all of these people being, Jesus, what was you doing? He was healing people of disease, but he was also healing people of possession, of demonic spirits that had overtaken them. It was not just mental illness. They were overtaken. And so I have to wonder, I don't know.

when the end of days is. I don't know when we talk about the biblical end times. I don't know when that is. But if it's true that we're always marching toward it, hypothetically, if it's not that far away, and I'm not saying, I'm not date setting or saying it's happening tomorrow, I'm just saying it, I have wondered, is the veil feeling thinner because we're approaching a time when Jesus will return again for his second coming? I don't know. I've thought about that and I've wondered, I think there's an argument to be made. But I do think regardless of that piece, the end times piece, the veil does feel much thinner. And I think to your point, you said this earlier, there's a clarity that did not exist. I have had people call me who are not Christians who have said something is going on spiritually in this country. They even sense it, those who do not believe necessarily. And so I think we're feeling that more than ever. And it wasn't just Charlie's death that happened way before that. I mean, look, we're living in an arrow where people are being assassinated. I mean, it's insane. And that's happened before in American history. But showing up on a college campus to see. speak. This is stuff that you and I would do or have done, right? Showing up to speak or debate

that that could mean your death. I mean, so yes, it is thinning, and I think we need to be aware of that, and we need to be clear-minded and clear-eyed as we really try to process and understand what's happening. For non-spiritual people, what does it mean that the veil is thinner? Because I realize we're probably tossing that around, and if someone comes from a non-faith background, that might not make a ton of sense, Billy. No, I love that. Yeah, Christianese. We want to be careful not to speak in languages people don't understand. You know, I think it means that good and evil are becoming easier to see and discern and understand that it's becoming easier for us to turn on the news and see an event like what happened

to Charlie or some mass shooting and to say something's not right about that. That's actually evil, right? That's an evil that is not normative. It's not something we would see from a human being typically. It's something otherworldly. Or we see something that is good and we can see, okay, that points to something that is godly. right? And so that val thinning, I also think means that the battle that I described before in Ephesion 6, that we're actually watching that a little bit more unfold in front of us. And so for a non-believer,

that may seem strange and they may just say, well, there's good and bad and people make good and bad decisions. But I think, you know, we have to understand that this is becoming more apparent. And I think we're seeing, and this is the other part of this, stranger ideologies and thoughts become mainstream. I mean, you look at New York City and what New York City is very likely, about to elect and how that is going to go. I think we're watching these worldviews clash like we've never really seen before, and I think we're going to see more of that. And so that's all part of that veil thinning. Oh, that's interesting. Yeah, like with a clarity. That's super in a contrast. So actually, that's a good segue for me to try my theory out on you, Billy, for why we see darker

Halloween decorations and why there's been an obvious true crime slash supernatural boom. It gets called true crime sort of as shorthand, but it really has a lot to do with also ghost shows, demon shows, supernatural shows, booming right now. And my theory is that because it feels real. And for people who are saturated and bathed in the virtual, which is real, but often feels, there's a difference, right? We use virtual to distinguish from real because, you know, we sort of just instinctively see online as different from offline. It's all real. It's all reality. But there's there's so much more friction to online activity and discourse.

And so when you're saturated in that, you seek out things that to you feel immediate, urgent, and real, because it kind of gives you that jolt of being part of the human race and reality and feeling connected to something. It also, I think, gives you a sense of purpose. You're thinking about something deep and real. And so if you're kind of just, I think it's especially powerful for women who are getting married later and having kids later, or if not at all. And it's a way to kind of feel like you're involved in the human condition. So that's my theory, Billy. And I want to ask you about AI psychosis because there's so many stories.

Actually, just today, this is an Axios report, F9, that's out about how open AI. just this week, updated chat GPT's default model to better recognize and support people in moments of distress. The company says it worked with mental health experts who train the bot to de-escalate situations and steer people to real-world help. The work focused on psychosis and mania, self-harm and suicide and emotional reliance on AI. Character.a.I also said today that it will remove the ability for users under 18 to engage in open-ended chats on its platform. This is a stat that Axios said, according to OpenAI's estimates, around 0.07% of users active in a given week, send messages including possible signs of mental health emergencies related to psychosis or mania. That amounts

to actually 560,000 people showing signs of psychosis or mania according to the numbers, if you actually crunch them based on how many people are using the platform billy. So you wrote this book before playing with fire before the LLM boom took off. How are you thinking about all of this? You know, I'm incredibly cautious about all of it. You know, I think when it comes to AI, here's the deal. You don't want to get lost in the dust. You have to be aware of it. You have to know how to use it.

I know a lot of people who are saying, I'm not going to use AI. I'm not going to engage in it. You know, okay, fine, you can say that all day, but it's part of our lives. And we have really, I mean, from a Christian perspective, if you want to get the Bible out to people, it can help you translate it. There's a lot of good things that AI can do. But on the flip side of that, the fact that people are becoming addicted to AI, that they're getting in relationships with AI.

They're looking to AI for all the answers. I think the biggest danger of AI is, yeah, those strange things, the fact that people can get sucked into it mentally. All of that is important and we need to pay attention to. But the bigger thing is that it creates a laziness in a lot of us. It can do so much for us that the danger to me in a culture that already is so dumbed down, confused and loss is that now you have this tool that can allow you to be more dumbed down, confused and lost by just giving all of your sort of attention away and saying, hey, do this

assignment for me, write this article for me, think for me. We need to be thinking deeper. We don't need some machine thinking for us. Now, that doesn't mean we can't use it to help us, right? I find ways to use it to make my life easier all the time. You know, menial tasks that would have taken an hour that can take two minutes, great, but we have got to be discerning about how we are engaging in using this. And also the other piece of this, who controls the AI, right? It's like it's this force we don't know. Like, who owns each AI tool? Well, they're all owned by different people. What are those people believe? What are those tools being trained to say? Are there biases that we need to be aware of in all of this? Yeah, the answer is yes. We need to be very aware. And I think a lot of

us are very happy to just log on and use it and not think twice. But I'll stop there. I mean, there's a lot to unpack. And I think there'll be even more in the, you know, months and years to come. Well, there's a lot of debate in Christian circles, and I know you're up on all of this, Billy, about the potential for demonic possession via large language models is something that John Daniel Davidson, Rod Dreher have talked about. Again, you've written about this even before LLMs were a thing. What do you make of that potentiality? Yeah, I mean, again, this is going to sound crazy to non-believers people who don't believe. It's going to sound nuts. but the demonic realm actually uses technology very often. This is something that showed up in a lot of stories. I've actually had a personal experience with this in my own life

where you see technology being manipulated or used. There are stories that we've encountered even with police officers who have gone on the record talking about the fact that their technology has been hijacked in certain situations by the demonic, that they've heard voices, they've experienced things through technology. So now that you have a technology, I mean, think about this.

that can think, right, for itself, you know, if you're Satan and you're the devil, the enemy, the goal of Satan is to kill, steal, and destroy and confuse, so why would you not use a tool that can actually communicate and talk to further those actions on the human population? So I actually think there's a lot there to be concerned about, and I have no problem considering and assuming the fact that AI and other tools like it would be used to try to dissuade people and push them away from the truth. Again, it sounds crazy. People are going to be like,

what is he talking about? But the reality is we know other technologies have been used in that way, so it would not at all shock me. And I would throw out there, I don't even know why I'm going to say this because it's going to open a Pandora's box. Let's do it.

Let's do it. We're having a conversation about aliens right now in our culture, right? And I find it incredibly fascinating. I've gone on blurry creatures and I love those guys. You know, a lot of other shows will talk about this.

I don't believe for a second we're dealing with aliens. I don't believe for a second we're dealing with real extraterrestrial beings. What we're dealing with is a demonic realm that wants to convince people it is something else. And what's so fascinating is that people are willing to believe that, oh my gosh, there are aliens out there. And I don't mean to insult people because some people feel free to disagree with me. That's a fair argument. They are out there.

And really what you're seeing is a demonic realm that is trying to trick people into believing it's something else. So I don't doubt for a second people are seeing things. I doubt what they think they're actually seeing. What, so that's very interesting. What makes you think that? And actually, it was going towards the question I was going to ask you, before you even broached this topic of aliens, which was what is the kind of screw tape letters is really great on this.

And it shaped the way that I think by C.S. Lewis, obviously. But what is the kind of material, I know that's a weird way to put it, but how would satanic, demonic forces, materially kind of influence, whether it's an LLM or the world in a way that makes us see aliens or that's intended to make us see extraterrestrials when it's actually sort of a trick. Yeah, okay, so this is like, I mean, again, Pandora's box being opened here, there are a couple of different theories on what demons are, right? I think the most prevalent, I don't think, I know the most prevalent theory is that they're

fallen angels. They're angels who have decided not to follow God. There's also the Nephilim theory, which you won't get into. But let's say they're falling angels. You can Google that, everyone. You can Google it. Yeah, it's a whole thing. But, you know, fallen angels. Now, what we see in the Bible is that angels are actually able to show up, in fact, in different forms.

They often look like people, even though they don't really look like people, they will show up. And so you see these stories and you think, oh, that's really interesting. You know, the Bible says you might entertain an angel and not even realize it. You might think it was a person, right? So we know that angels can present themselves in different ways. And when you look at, you know, UFOs, and I am not an astrophysicist. But I do interview one in my next documentary, and we do address, so in investigating the supernatural angels and demons, again, you can go to Supernatural Movie and we'll have more information on that

film as it gets closer. We will address aliens and talk about this. You know, it's interesting. Where are all the spacecrafts? Where are all the physical items? They don't exist. You know, people will say, oh, they are out there. Well, none of us have seen them.

We've not touched them. You have people saying that they've seen things in the sky. They've encountered creatures. We have people, I'm talking about that, but we don't see any physical manifestation. of that. So it seems to be a very spiritual thing, but here's the other thing. And this is so interesting, when you're looking at the encounters that people have, and I would encourage people to go and Google this and look at it with aliens, suppose it aliens. They mirror 100% the experience that people have with possession that they have with the demonic. It is the same exact,

it's terrifying. Nobody has a good encounter with aliens. It doesn't happen. They're literally mirrors of one another. And so there are a lot of other things that we could talk about and unpack, but some of those things seem to really point to, okay, these seem to be the same spiritual beings showing up as dead people when they're not, showing up as aliens when they're not. And again, the whole goal is to confuse people. And that's really all that it does. Let me ask actually, because this reminds me of the question, what do you make of the idea that modernity feels so fake in a way that we are kind of ensconced in these increasingly virtual bubbles where we talk to people on social media more than in person,

and we work on laptops connected to the internet in lieu of many in-person meetings and the like that might be attracting us to some of these conversations more. Does that drive with what you've experienced? And is there something about hyper-modernity that is creating, as you mentioned, this Ephesian Sixth battle? Because actually, since I mentioned screw tape letters, a lot of that was reaction to the brutal and vicious

technologies of World War I that just completely unleashed the worst of humanity. Yeah, I mean, think about the fact that we are, and look, there's beautiful things about having laptops and connection. I don't leave my home studio ever, so like I can't sit there and say, this is terrible. I mean, I'm in my home studio right now all the time, and I do everything from this room, which is amazing. But I think the thing about technology that should cause all of us to pause and think is that we have more tools right now than ever before to be connected to see people like

You and I are right now every single day, more tools than ever, and yet we have people more confused, lost, depressed, angry, alone than ever before. There is zero reason why people should feel lonely. If these technologies can actually replace adequately, which they can't, the human experience, you know, hanging out with somebody, being with somebody, then we wouldn't feel that way. And yet our culture continues to struggle with these things, drug addiction. I mean, all of these things have actually worse. in recent years as the technology has increased. And so I think there's something to that. And when you

talk about Ephesion 6, the battle, right, that so many people assume is flesh and blood, well, all of the political battles we have, they've intensified because we are in our silos. We are in with the groups of people online that we agree with. And we don't really want to deal with the people we don't agree with. We watch news networks. And that's fine to a degree. I want to be aware, though, of what the other side is saying. A lot of us are not. We're watching only one side, our side. And so it's actually, the technology is actually fueling the belief that the real battle is between flesh and blood when it really is spiritual. It's a distraction almost if we're not aware of it. Philly, I'm saving the biggest question for last. What is your message, but I know you've

thought about it a lot. What is your message to the sort of normal American who maybe was baptized as a kid, thinks that, you know, having listened to us for the better part of the last hour, we sound kooky, like crazy people and we are in, lost in the sauce. What is your message to them about, how would you persuade them, Billy, to think maybe a bit more and to open their mind to the possibility that a lot of what people believed actually until the last like 100 years wasn't as crazy as they might think. Yeah, I love that question. You know, the thing that I've actually reflected on a lot in the last year as I was working

on this miracles documentary was, you know, we talk about miracles like there's some wild crazy thing. And sometimes they are, right? Sometimes they seem so otherworldly and unbelievable. But when you look outside your window and you see a tree or an animal or you look in the mirror and you see the eyeball, the eyeball is like an insane computer chip. I mean, the way the eyeball operates, if you don't know about it, Google it and look at it, you know, creating images, sending it to your brain, processing,

the entire human body, every part of it is a miracle. It's absolutely insane that you and I are conscious right now, sitting here talking, and there are hundreds of people right now watching this probably, you know, able to see and view it and hear it. I mean, our hearing, every single thing that we take at face value is some simple, you know, oh, this is just the way it is. It's like, no, these are actually literally miracles. and the chances that all of these things happen by accident,

that it all just snapped out of nowhere is virtually zero. It couldn't happen. And so I would encourage people who are questioning or confused or they think we're just nuts. I would encourage them. I was telling somebody this the other day who was struggling with this. They're like, well, I don't know if I want to pray to Jesus. I don't know that that really matters.

And I'm like, well, what do you have to lose? Like, what do you have to lose to take a step back and say, okay, God, if you're real, I'm going to pray to you. And if you're real, show me that you're real. give me a sign that you're real and give it a couple of weeks. Pray to God, see what you get. But I would just encourage people to look around them and actually examine the things that are there because those things, they are miraculous and they are incredible. And I could go on and on. But to me, that's the biggest appeal. Like prove to me that this is all some sort of mistake.

And I don't think anybody can actually prove that. And any rational brain would say, no, no, no, there's something more going on here. You know, Billy, this brings us full circle to the Joe Rogan clip we started talking about, where he discusses the historical documentation of the historical Jesus. And in fact, if you read Case for Christ and many other works of apologetics on this, the documentation, believe it or not, and people who are, you know, even more in the academic weeds than you or I, Billy, have looked into it and walked away saying actually historical evidence, substantiation of the resurrection itself.

once you accept that, everything changes. Everything changes. You don't get to change the Bible. The Bible changes you. And it's so, so powerful as soon as you kind of get over that particular hump. Yeah. Well, and that's the thing, right? You know, getting past ourselves is really difficult sometimes. And that's why I encourage people, if you're unsure, ask God, he will open your eyes if you're truly open and you're willing to understand it. It's okay to have doubts. We all have doubts. I still have moments of out where I have to say, okay, God help me understand this, right? But actually taking that step and asking and seeking it, I believe that you will find it if you truly have a heart that is open to it. Oh, Billy Hallowell. I've been looking forward to this one literally for months. The book in this case

is called Playing with Fire. The podcast is into The Supernatural, also investigating the supernatural. Go follow all of Billy's work. He is the host of CBN News. He is a columnist at the Washington Times, and you can follow him on X at Billy Hollowell. You're at Billy Hollowell on Instagram too, aren't you? I am. Yes, I am. Billy, thank you for being here. Thank you. It was a blast. Such a blast.

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who I think just puts a lot of cogent, thoughtful research into breaking the theology of these topics down. So I was really excited to have him. I know I've mentioned that a couple of times that should give you a flavor of just how excited I was to have Billy on the show. This, by the way, for me, tonight is a literal after party. I was at a Halloween party right before I came here. And it was, it was great. It was Edgar Allan Poe themed. So I only had one beer. So that'll give you guys some comfort, I assume. And why did I do that? So I don't sound like Jennifer Welch. That's why I only had one beer. Because, listen, when you podcast as much as, you know, the average podcaster does these days, and believe me, I know this, you, if you are not at least like,

like sort of careful to not wander in absurd directions. You're just kind of talking. Sometimes you're working your thoughts out in real time. You could end up sounding like Jennifer Welch here. Let's hope that this clip I'm about to show you from Jennifer Welch was a wandering thought and not a deeply held one. I have my suspicions. Let's roll this.

Look at this clip of a wine mom at the No King's Mark. play the clip. What his name was? Charlie Kirk, ma'am? Yeah, him's horrible. Horrible. Charlie Kirk is horrible? Yes, I'm glad he's not here.

Why would you say something like that, ma'am? Because he was horrible on the campuses, the college campuses. Horrible person. You know what? I do the exact same thing. Would you be glad if I would die? Maybe. I'd have to think about it.

So Jennifer Welch is watching this clip, which I think is from Caitlin Bennett. And she's laughing. Liberal podcaster, here she is. Here she is. So listen up, Democratic establishment. You can either jump on board with this shit or we're coming after you in the same way that we come after MAGA.

Period. Okay, so Welch went on to call Charlie Kirk some insane names, but you get the gist of it there. There's a lot to blame the media for in this case because they've built up Charlie into being, like, objectively a racist, hateful bigot. And the examples, Megan has done an exhaustive point-for-point rebuttal

of all of these examples about what he thought about the Civil Rights Act and what he thought about affirmative action and the like, basically being what so many non-racist, black conservatives have thought for years and said for years just happened to disagree with the left. And you'll get branded in Uncle Tom. And if you're white, you'll get branded. racist. So some blame to go around here that people like Jennifer Welch and the women that

know King's rally that Welch was talking about on the I've Had It podcast. I think it was like the news edition of the I've Had a podcast on Tuesday. But Welch is popular and she is increasingly popular because she gets what the average Democratic voter wants in general, right? now. I'm tabling the specific example for just one moment. What Jennifer Welch does is like a Tea Party blogger trash the Democratic establishment and rightfully so at every single term. And her willingness to do that on new media platforms where they aren't worried about access or advertisers or the like. her willingness to hammer politicians on A-PAC. It is often glorious to watch.

And I can't imagine how satisfying it is if you are a Normie Democratic voter to finally see Cory Booker, for example, be confronted by someone like Jennifer Welch. Because you know who's not going to do that? It's not going to happen on NBC. Not like that. The way she talks about Hakeem Jeffries and Chuck Schumer in that clip that I, If you continue watching it, it's very long. If you continue watching it, she goes off on Schumer and Jeffreys.

And that puts her an advantage just in the marketplace. I don't think she's doing it on purpose. I think she genuinely believes this. You may know her, by the way, from that show that was on Bravo for a while. It was called, like, Sweet Home, something like that was about her and her co-hosts on the I've Had a Podcast. It was a total flop. And I think rightfully so, but it's been parlayed into the I've Had It Podcasts. and now this major political influence,

because Welch is popular. She is very popular in social media. The podcast is regularly viral, does have a lot of listens, gets really big guess. I already mentioned Cory Booker, but there have been many others that they interview and go viral for interviewing.

And a lot of that is because the appetite is clearly, we've talked about this poll all the time that came out over the summer that showed Tea Party levels of dissatisfaction among Democrats toward the Democratic Party. That was the same, that level was the same, for Republicans towards the Republican Party around the Tea Party era. And establishment Democrats are still not reckoning with it.

They still don't understand what that means. They're out there doing wraps or whatever the hell Hakeem Jeffries does on your average Wednesday. And people like Jennifer Welch are capitalizing on that. So she has correctly picked up on that and reflected the sentiments of your average Democratic voter when it comes to sort of smashing the corrupt corporate party establishment. And she talks that way over and over again, frames it directly as I did, basically, over and over again. That part is good. What is not reflective of your average Democratic voter, though some, don't get me wrong, I'm sure some, you just saw that.

No, King's woman, say that she was basically say that she was glad Charlie Kirk died, that Charlie Kirk was shot. But again, seemingly like a normal woman who is out on the sidewalk with a sign talking to someone with a microphone doing a man on the street, Jennifer Welch is channeling in the clip that I just showed you a lack of discipline rooted in pure hatred. That is someone who is governed by their hate. and their hate. I mean, Welch is constantly slamming. She lives in Oklahoma, red state people as racist, bigots, et cetera. That's, when that gets to you, you end up saying things like this, laughing at the woman saying she was glad Charlie Kirk was assassinated and then smearing the guy who was assassinated as a hateful bigot. I think this was a mistake for Jennifer Welch, to be honest.

I think it was a mistake. I don't know if it will cost her anything. She's mostly gotten headlines and viral stuff from conservative social media people at this point. But I think it reflects from her a sort of a lack of kindness and a lack of compassion that is ugly to see no matter who you are. I mean, there have been some people on the left who very openly said after the assassination of Charlie Kirk, they were surprised by the ugliness that came out of their own side. And even people like on the left left, they haven't all gone so far as to say that it's equivalent, the left and the right, or that the left is worse than the right.

Not all of them have. Some of them have, to be sure, but not everyone. But if that's true, and I think Welch and the woman who was just interviewed in the Snow King's video, and Welch going viral for this, by the way, well, I think that shows there's a dehumanization that is never, ever, ever good, never, ever, ever, ever. And so Welch is smuggling this ugliness into the liberal discourse with the packaging

that is anti-establishment in a way that gives her an advantage in the marketplace. A lot of people find Welch appealing because she says exactly what they're thinking about the Democratic establishment. And what people should be saying about the Democratic establishment. I know people that really like Jennifer Welch, and sometimes I'm watching these clips of her with, like, Corey Booker, and I'm clapping and I'm laughing because they're hilarious,

and the Democratic establishment is terrible. So it's great to sort of watch them get theirs. But clips like this show, you know, that is a very, is a very ugly sentiment. It's a very ugly way to think about your fellow Americans. And I hope that it doesn't continue to be smuggled into that sort of appealing package of the angry Normie Democrat because I know what a market there is for that right now. And if people's only options are the Democratic establishment or Jennifer Welch laughing about the death of Charlie Kirk and a woman saying it was good and then kind of agreeing with that woman and demanding Chuck Schumer and Hakeemper's, agree with that woman.

Woo. Things are going to get worse, if that's the case. All right. Thank you so much for tuning in to tonight's edition of After Party. We have a happy hour coming up on Friday. So submit your questions to Emily at devil make caremedia.com. I look forward to reading those and taping them. I read them live every week. I don't look at them before I read them.

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