After Party with Emily Jashinsky - The Fall of the Gatekeepers: From Schlossberg and the Kennedys, to Bravo Influencers, with Maureen Callahan

Episode Date: August 26, 2025

Emily Jashinsky reacts to the breaking news President Trump has fired Fed Governor Lisa Cook.   Then Emily is joined by Maureen Callahan, Host of The Nerve with Maureen Callahan.  The two take a deep dive into the current Kennedy family drama, how the Kennedy mystique is gone, what’s the deal with JFK’s grandson Jack Schlossberg, and NY Senator Chuck Schumer’s odd appointment of Schlossberg to the America 250 Commission.  Then Emily and Maureen discuss Carole Radziwill’s efforts to stay relevant, and if influencer culture has ruined Bravo.  Emily then takes a thoughtful look into Gen Z longing for yesterday, and why everyone wants to unplug from their phones. PreBorn: Help save a baby go to https://PreBorn.com/Emily or call 855-601-2229.  Masa Chips: Go to https://MASAChips.com/AFTERPARTY and use code AFTERPARTY for 25% off your first order. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hello, welcome to After Party, where we try to slow down a little bit and take in the news with some laughs. And I have no doubt that we are going to have a surplus of laughter this evening because the great Marine Callahan, host of the nerve with Marine Callahan, is joining us. But of course, there was breaking news just around 8 p.m. That's how it goes. Of course, that's how it goes. It's one of the reasons actually that we do a live show at 10 p.m. because these news cycles do not quit. So we're going to get into a quick breakdown of what happened with the Federal Reserve, but I have to say I think the theme of today's show is going to be the, I don't want to say death, it's maybe a little bit too harsh, but the decline of the gatekeepers. Let's use decline.

That's more politically correct. That's sort of a euphemism. The decline of the gatekeepers. And that will be a thread woven from our discussion of the Fed all the way to our discussion of the Real Housewives of New York City. I promise you. I promise you. Trust me. News you can trust. So stay tuned for all of that. Now, before we get to Marine, I do just want to bring in this news that broke again at 8 p.m. I think Trump posted this at 802 p.m. He posted a letter to truth social, firing Federal Reserve,

governor, Lisa Cook. Megan and I talked about it on the Megan Kelly show earlier today in actually great detail about who Lisa Cook is. But Lisa Cook is a Biden appointee who is flamboyantly liberal, has a flamboyantly liberal record. And you can understand that Joe Biden, the man who nominated Kamala Harris, I think sadly, tragically, to check boxes, identitarian boxes, was likely doing the same with Lisa Cook, who actually joined in the chorus and retweeted after the New York Times famously, now famously, infamously, pulled this Tom Cotton op-ed back in 2020. Lisa Cook was actually in the course of people

who said publishing this puts Black New York Times staffers lives in danger. You may remember a bunch of New York Times staffers were posting that. Megan pointed this out today, actually. Lisa Cook was retweeting the Black New York Times staffers or the New York Times staffers that were saying in op-ed of a mainstream political position

from a U.S. Senator put their lives in danger. Okay. So Trump gets rid of it. her. She is under investigation for mortgage fraud. You would not have known that, or you wouldn't have known the details of it if you had just read the New York Times profile of her that focused very heavily on her identitarian traits rather than the investigation itself. And I just want to say, that is kind of insane and a great representation of why the media's biggest bias is not even ideology, it is class, and the ideology is downstream of class. Lisa Cook is under serious

investigation for mortgage fraud for claiming two homes as her primary residence, which is a way to get lower interest rates. This is why Donald Trump felt comfortable axing Lisa Cook, which right now it's worth bringing in this Bloomberg post. They say, this is FOA for everyone out there who can, yep, there it is, it's up on the screen. The dollar weakened against every major peer after President Donald Trump moved to oust Federal Reserve Governor Lisa Cook from her purse, from her post, denting sentiment towards the world's reserve currency. Now, CNBC further reported Congress curbed the president's authority to unilaterally fire a Fed Governor in the Federal Reserve Act of 1913, which states that the president can only do so,

quote, for cause. So what is the cause that Donald Trump is citing in this letter that he posted at 8 p.m? He says, quote, I do not have such confidence in your integrity. This is what he said to Lisa Cook. At a minimum, the conduct at issue exhibits the sort of gross negligence in financial transactions that calls into question your competence and trustworthiness as a financial regulator. This would shift the balance of the Federal Reserve. Trump would likely end up with four conservative members in the Federal Reserve,

actually really Trump picked members of the Federal Reserve of the seven. So why are the politics of this easy for Donald Trump, even as you're looking at the dollar being down, according to Bloomberg's reporting, CNBC's reporting as well. Gold, this is, again, a breaking story, but gold has already shot up based on some of the metrics that we have.

So why would Donald Trump do this? Well, because of the class reasons, because Donald Trump has been saying forever that Jay Powell is hurting families by keeping rates where they are. And so I actually asked Trump, and this is why I think this move today is really interesting when he was touring the Federal Reserve

a few weeks back. he was making this case against Jerome Powell. I was at the Federal Reserve for that, again, now infamous tour of the Federal Reserve where Donald Trump and Jerome Powell walked around in hard hats and Tim Scott was sort of hanging out in the background. And he was talking about how Powell was hurting families with the rate hikes and they had all these disagreements. This was very awkward and very hot afternoon. But here's what Trump told me about Powell when I asked him that.

Mr. President, if the rates are hurting families in the country, why let that keep going for another eight months. Why not just fired the chairman now? To do that is a big move. I just don't think it's necessary. And I believe that he's going to do the right thing. Okay. Not so true of Lisa Cook, who was not spared Trump's acts, despite many people seeing this as a violation of a norm. Now, the unitary executive theory that Donald Trump, Russ Vote, his Office of Management Budget director and others espouse. This was part of Project 2025, the much, the very frightening Project 2025, of course, and I'm saying that was sarcasm. If you're not watching, maybe that doesn't always come through. But to be clear, the much derided Project 2025 was making this argument that

many conservatives have made since the Nixon administration, which is that independent agencies have spiraled out of the executives control, the executive needs to control these independent agencies so that they are responsive to the democratic process, the lowercase D democratic process, and not just operating on the whims of bureaucrats who are not elected and who are actually ignoring electeds who are saying, this is my policy. And so all of these different battles that are going on, yes, are part of a, I would say, legitimate, conservative, reasonable conservative philosophy. I always like to ask when something like this happens, a few question. So is it legal? We'll see. This is probably, I mean, this is going to go way up in the court

system, but I think Trump has a pretty good argument here. Is it actually a norm? Is this actually a norm? I think in this case, yes. Now, in the case of the John Bolton raid that we've been hearing is, you know, the sacred violation of a norm for so long, John Bolton cheered the violation of those norms first and all of his allies cheered the violations of those norms first. But is it a good norm? This is a good norm. Is breaking the norm significant or is it merely novel? I don't know that we have the answer to that question yet. I'm obviously like many people watching the markets very closely. We're going to see what Trump does with Powell. As Trump said, his hesitance. Remember when the bond market got a little yippy back in the spring to put it in Trump's words? It got a little yippy.

That's when he pulled back from some of the tariffs. Well, Trump pays attention. It pays attention. to these things. So we'll see what happens and how this plays out over the course of the next several days, maybe even several weeks. Again, a lot unknown as of right now, which is why what we're seeing with the dollar being down as this news breaks is quite interesting. And I said that the theme of today's show would be the decline of the gatekeepers. So how are we going to take the Federal Reserve to the Kennedy family, to the Real Housewives of New York City? Let's bring a Marine Callahan, who will be with me on this journey as we weave from point A to point Z. Marine Callahan is, of course, host of the nerve with Marine Callahan, also on MK Media.

Marine, thank you for being here. Thanks for having me, Emily. And I have my cocktail here, as I was instructed by your producer. I have a little vodka tonic. Vodka and topo chico, if I'm being honest. I'm a snob when it comes to seltzer water. And congrats on your show. Congratulations on your show. Thank you for having me. Thank you. No, likewise. Congrats on your show.

Thank you. I'm so excited to have you here tonight. Cheers. Because, Marine, you cover the things that I truly care about. And I really mean that. I'll take you at face value, Emily. I do really mean that. Yeah, I can't click off of your stories. I just keep going. That's the hope. Yeah, you're real. Yeah. No, I just keep going. But I do, I mean, so I was trying to think about tonight's show, and the Fed news broke around 8 p.m.

And there was a splashy new New York Magazine deep dive into the Kennedy family today that I know you're going to be talking about on your show tomorrow. So folks should make sure to subscribe if they haven't yet over there. And to me, what stands out, even the elevation of Jack Schlossberg to reportedly the chagrin of some members of his family. We're going to get into that. Some members of family are also very upset with the current health and human services secretary to whom they are related and have championed in this ascent over many decades, Robert F. Kennedy Jr. What does it look like to me? It looks like the death of the gatekeepers or the decline of the gatekeepers. And some of those gatekeepers really struggling with the power that is slipping through their fingers and they've sort of started to realize it. And I think that might be the theme that we talk about tonight, Marine. So if you're game, I would love to start with F1. This is the New York Magazine cover of the Kennedys. This is the New York

magazine's cover story on, it's just the, if you're listening to this, it's a picture of, it's a vintage picture of all of the Kennedy children who go by G3 with JFK in presumably Hanna's Port in the 1960s. And it says, of all the Kennedys, inside a family in existential crisis. So, Maureen, again, I know you're going to talk about this on your show, but I do just want to get your reaction to the story. I had no idea this was dropping and plan to talk to you about Jack Schlossberg tonight. So it took me a little bit off guard. I was like, this is the best timing ever. But before we get into the weeds too much, what did you make of it? Well, it's interesting. You know, it's not to worry because I'm actually, on tomorrow's nerve, we're talking about the third and final episode of CNN's JFK Jr.

your documentary. So if you want to hear the real story, come over to the nerve. I saw this piece, and I, first of all, it's way too long. If you want to talk about the death of the gatekeepers, I don't think the Kennedy family is what we're talking about. I think we're talking about legacy mainstream media. This is the cover of New York Magazine that the Kennedy family is an existential crisis. It's over. It's been over for a long time. And this whole premise of this piece, It's like, who's in charge over there? They're saying that RFK Jr. and his Maha movement and aligning with the Trump administration is the thing that's going to bring them down with a footnote being one Jack Schlossberg, who just is having what I believe is a complete and clear mental breakdown on social media. He's an embarrassment to the family.

Caroline has been excised by many members because of her son's antics, because he's an embarrassment. Now, we're talking about a family. JFK, former president the first, you know who we're talking about. As written about in my book, Ask Not, did many, many terrible things to women. And I'll just name check two off top of my head. Statutorily raped a 19-year-old White House intern who was a virgin after getting her drunk, after her first day of work on his wife's marital bed, Jackie was out of town. Or committing Jackie to a mental institution against her will when he was,

when he was only a senator because she was so upset that her husband wasn't coming home every night. And, you know, she was kind of angry about it and he didn't want to deal with it. And so he shipped her off to get three electroshock treatments in the span of a week and never once visited. I could go on. The original lock her up. Yeah. And then Ted Kennedy, who left a young woman to die in three feet of water. Okay, so finally the American public has woken up and it said, we don't revere this family anymore.

You know? You're full of miscreants and reprobates and people who have raped and murdered and left women for dead and institutionalized them, lobotomized one. So I love the, I love the tone of this piece, which is just like, do we think it's the end? Yeah, I mean, they actually asked that question. And to your point about the tone, the first quote that I pulled up from the story I wanted to ask you about is this line, the family has always stood for more than itself. And in its inability to contain the damage to its legacy, as it transforms into something vulgarized and deformed, it still does.

Let's just pause right there. As it transforms into something vulgarized and deformed, it has always been vulgarized. It has always been deformed. But what's interesting is that I think, Marine, social media and the dispersion, you know, as there's just more Kennedys, because the line has, you know, populated over the course of several decades,

has left it completely out of their control. They used to be able to bury a lot of the stories that you just talked about, which went on in the 1960s. And honestly, the media went along with it. They wanted access. They loved the Kennedys. And a lot of the stuff just didn't get reported. Or if it did get reported, it was like, nobody cared. I don't know.

What do you make of that? It never got reported. And in fact, you know, Ben Bradley, who was then at the Washington Post, considered himself one of JFK's best friends. And, you know, he would always be up in the White House residence with his wife. having dinner and drinks. And Jack would be hitting on Ben's wife when he wasn't having an affair with Ben's wife's sister who wound up shot in broad daylight in DC, go figure. And what did Ben Bradley do with those, what did Ben Bradley do?

He helped. He helped get rid of the documents. He, listen, everything, so the media, which was composed mainly of, you know, white men from Ivy leagues who felt that Jack was one of them and they wanted Jack to love them and they were so swept up by his star power and charisma. They were all complicit in it. They were all complicit. And the other part of that line in the New York mag piece

that I love is the family has always stood for something other than itself. Really? Well, I believe Rees Wiedeman is the author of that piece. Rees, I think you meant to tell us what exactly that was. Yeah, that would be great. Actually, I feel like not enough people know about this, Ben Bradley.

Meyer story because it's insane what Ben Bradley as he was was he EIC at the post of that time. I don't know if he was EIC, but he was very high up. So this insane murder mystery happens in Georgetown. It's all very bizarre. But Ben Bradley, by his own admission, Ben actually kind of helped clean up the crime scene. And I believe, again, Marine, correct me if I'm wrong, by his own admission, they took some of that stuff to Langley. That I didn't even know about Ben's involvement. I think it's in devil's chessboard.

Okay, I haven't read that one. But, you know, to your point, flash forward decades later over at ABC News, run by Rune Arledge, 2020, is about to go live with a two-hour primetime expose about Jack Kennedy and Bobby Kennedy's involvement in Marilyn Monroe's death. And like 30 minutes, I think, Emily, before that was to go to air, Roon pulled it. And it's never been seen. Nobody knows where it is. I'm sure it was burned. I'm sure it was burned. I'm sure it was too. Well, let's get to Jack Schlossberg because he's actually this, if people haven't been following, you know, as we're in the middle of this Kennedy nostalgia burst, because we have the American love story coming out, which actually I think, and you may know more about this Marine, I wonder if that actually in and of itself was started by the TikTok and Instagram interest. And it seemed to me like that actually came first, the social media interest from Gen Z in JFK Jr. And Carolyn Beset came before the American Love Story treatment.

I feel like they picked up on that. I feel like Ryan Murphy is in the zeit guys picked up on what was happening on social media with those two, which is also completely insane. And I know we'll get into it and is now making the, the movie and the pop shots from the set have gone viral. On top of that, we have the CNN docuseries that you've been covering about the life and death of JFK Jr. So in the middle of this nostalgia burst, Jack Schlossberg, who is the son of Caroline Kennedy, has been trying to become a serious force in the Democratic Party to varying degrees of success. This was him making fun of

Melania Trump's letter to Vladimir Putin recently, S-1. In today's world, some children are forced to carry a quiet laughter, untouched by darkness around them, a silent defiance against forces that can potentially claim their future, Mr. Putin. You can single-handedly restore their melodic laughter. In protecting the innocence of these children, you will do more than serve Russia alone. You serve humanity itself. Such a bold idea transcend all human division and Mr. Puth.

And you, Mr. Putin, are fit to implement this vision with a stroke of a pen today. It is time. What am I saying? This make no sense. Please be more specific, Ms. Melania Trump. So, Marine, that's just weird. What did you think when you saw that? I didn't watch the whole thing.

He just, he doesn't interest me that much. I think to me he presents as just to me he presents as somebody who probably has a drug problem probably has some untreated or undiagnosed mental illness somebody who is probably and this is the worst of all a failed actor extremely jealous of his cousin patrick schwarzenegger who's just coming off of the white lotus any young actor's dream casting none of that makes sense first of all milania trump isn't even a blonde with like a bob with an anna winter bob like bob like Like, he has no, there's no logic is basically my point. There's no through line there. And there's something really misogynistic about the way he talks about women and women in the public eye. And he tries to level himself up by taking these really cheap broadsides at them. You know, that's a letter that Melania Trump wrote to persuade Putin to end the war in the interest of the children of Ukraine. I don't even. and believe she mentioned the ones that he's kidnapped.

But, yeah, I mean, I think Jack should keep going. I think he should keep going. This is clearly a winning strategy. Well, he was just appointed by Chuck Schumer to the America 250 commission. Oh, well, Emily, I take it all back. I take it all back. Chuck Schumer appointed him to some bullshit committee. What am I thinking?

Right. Yes. This is actually the America 250 committee, Marine. What did they do? God only knows. presumably they will be focused on YouTube and Melania Trump impressions. Let's take a look at this. This is actually Chuck Schumer appointing Jack Schlossberg to the America 250 Commission S4.

I am so proud to appoint Jack to the America 250 commission. He doesn't know who the fuck he is. Of how we celebrate our great 250th birthday. Why am I putting Jack there? We know that Donald Trump will try to aggrandize the whole thing and make it part of him and his ego. There's no better. person to push back on the new jack. And a Kennedy would never.

Trump will want to take that 250 cake and just stuff it in his face in the face of his billionaire friends. You'll be there to stop him. Thank you for this honor. And to quote our founding father, I am young, scrappy, and hungry, and I'm not going to throw away this shot.

He does look kind of hungry, Maureen. So he's being cool because he can like quote some lyrics from Hamilton. So that's a real, yeah. I mean, um, he's, he's, He was recently hired and then summarily, I believe, fired from Vogue. They hired him as their political correspondent during the last election cycle. And he contributed video, not really writing, but video such as an interview with, I believe

it was Tim Walls and David Letterman. And the question was, do you guys consider ketchup a sauce, like a condiment or like a veggie or something insane. Like he's not bright. He's not well. He's not, and he's not funny. Again, the worst of all, he's not funny. So yeah, let me put this on the screen

because it's rather interesting. This is his YouTube channel, which I pulled up. So he's got 11,000 subscribers posted 41 videos. And if you scroll down, I mean, some of the videos are right, but a lot of them were talking, you know, two and a half thousand views, six and a half thousand views. And he gets one in, you,

you know, 10, 17, 10. I think he's had some, yeah, that are up on 41, whatever. We don't need to, like, do a YouTube measuring contest at this point. But he's, again, a Kennedy with people in the mainstream press who are still, like, drooling over the prospect of talking to him or publishing him, I guess, until the ill-fated vogue attempt and the DNC attempt as well, which didn't go well because he said that he wanted to be unscripted.

And of course, the DNC didn't want the idea of Jack Schlossberg unscripted, not sticking to the talking points, running around the country. But he's apparently going to do more trips in his van around the country talking about Democrats and all of that kind of stuff. It's almost perfect, though, because this is who the Kennedys, to your point, this is who the Kennedys have always been. And when you take away the post-war media environment and you put someone in a 2025 media environment, it's just there's no varnish at this point. They try, but you know, I don't know what they're thinking. Jack Schlossberg is rolling around town in what looks like a murder van, frankly. And that's on brand. Yeah, Ted would be proud.

Many of them would be proud. Yeah. Women, if you see Jack Schlossberg in the wild, run. Other way. Do not get in the van. Don't get in the van. Don't get in the van. So let's get into some of the RFK

junior stuff from this New York Magazine profile. And honestly, just in general, this was my favorite part, I had missed this, but my favorite part of the New York Mags story, Maureen, was Maria Shriver writing a poem to her family on air during her brother's podcast. Did you see that one that happened? No. Again, I, I, the Kennedy's, Maria Shriver's another one where, you know, she's constantly, showing up on the Today Show, wearing so much gold jewelry that it's clanking and making all kinds of noise as she's trying to spout her latest self-help platitudes. And I love self-help. Who better than a woman who is married to a guy who is having an affair with a maid for years and years and years and their son is practically being raised in your home. And it takes until he's about

between age 12 to 13 to be like, Jesus, this kid's got a carbon copy of my husband's face. I want advice from you. That's exactly right. And so then she published earlier this year a book of poetry. And I got it, you know, because this is what we do with the nerve. We take all the hits. We take all the hits. And it was so terrible, Emily, so terrible.

And, you know, she's always out there spreading joy and self-actualization. And her face like froze that way. Like her face looks perpetually really angry and bitter. It does. It does. I mean, what's your favorite celebrity poetry book, by the way? Mine is Jules. Oh, that's interesting. I have a soft spot for Jule. Oh, big time. Me too. Celebrity poetry, I'd have to think. I think that's like a pretty rarefied genre. It is, but sometimes that you get a Maria Shriver who comes along and writes something truly funny.

Now, the Jewel poetry book, I have a soft spot for her as well, but it is kind of funny. I mean, she was very young when she wrote it, but it's kind of funny. Yeah, yeah, you know. Who among us. Exactly. But there's a lot of good celebrity poetry out there. I would bet Matthew McConaughey is a great poet. Matthew McConaughey.

He's a spoken word poet. He's a book. He's great. He's got a new book coming out. But he should be doing slam poetry. Well, that last book made stupid money. Didn't that make, like, an incredible amount? Everyone I saw in an airport for like five years was reading the Matthew McConaughey book.

That book was like a runaway bestseller. It shocked me. Shocked me. Who knows? He doesn't present as a reader. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah. But a poet, he does present as a poet.

A stoner poet. Yes, which is actually the best kind of poet. But in this piece, there's a lot of, it opens up a little bit of a window into the strife that's, you don't really even need to have the window cracked open on over Bobby Kennedy and how the family has tried to cope with, by the way, they supported him through a lot of his, like, wacky environmental activism, some of which has aged very well. I mean, I say wacky, but some of it has aged very well. And the family was supporting him throughout all of that. Now he is the Secretary of Health and Human Services. And they say he's changed beyond the pale to the point where they just can't get along with him anymore. This is going

on and on in the story. I mean, it becomes the heart of this New York Magazine story on Bobby Kennedy Jr. or on the story on Bobby Kennedy Jr. becomes the heart of it. Is this the nail in the coffin marine or was all of this already there? It just, they sort of have used this as a way to kind of formally break apart more. It's just the Kennedy's being as vicious and viperish as they always have been and they know that their legacy is in the toilet. You can tell because they've now gone after one of their own publicly, which before you would never, ever, ever do. No matter what somebody did, rape, murder, lobotomy, whatever, you keep that stuff as all good Irish Catholics do within the four walls of the family home. And so this is number one, how you know they're

panicked, panicked, panicked. Secondly, this piece opens valorizing Ethel Kennedy as the long-suffering mother of, you know, 38 children. Ethel Kennedy was a terrible mother and a terrible person. It is well, documented. So that made me laugh because the the false framing of her in this way is meant to basically imply that Bobby by aligning with Trump killed his mother. That's what did her in. And the thing about that as well, again, is sort of like now you're going to, for me, as I wrote about in Ask Not, my issue with Bobby and why I can never really get with him is the way he treated his second wife. Yeah, oh my gosh. Wound up committing suicide. And he, and he was with Cheryl Hines at the time, and those two

were tormenting her, tormenting her. He made sure she had no money. He was coming for the kids. She was going to lose everything. When she died, he made a big, big staged funeral. All the media was there. He was sure to be shot grieving at the casket. And one week later, he calls up the cemetery and has his wife's remains. exhumed from the Kennedy plot and moved 700 feet away, buried alone on the side of a hill facing traffic. So, you know, that to me is the worst thing, Bobby's done. That's not even to get into the diary entries and the like. The sex diaries, yeah.

Yeah. Marine, just before we go to break, I do want to ask you kind of a 30,000 foot question, which is what it's been like for you to report on the Kennedys for so long now, what, you know, just like what reaction? Do you ever hear anything from them? Is it ever hard for you? What's it been like? They're sort of notoriously, they work behind the scenes. They do. Trust me. Like they, they do. It's been extremely gratifying, Emily. And I'll tell you why, because I've been reporting on them for a very, very, very long time. And ask not was the culmination of all of that. And I spent about three years really deep in research and reporting for this book. And I overwhelmingly hear from people who say to me, I grew up in a house where the Kennedys were revered. I revered the Kennedys. I thought I knew everything. Oh, my God. I knew basically nothing. The Kennedys are terrible. This is the real, I call it reconsidered history. You know, this is the real story. And when a CNN puts out garbage like they've been putting out this summer, lionizing JFK Jr. as a great

guy. Oh, whoops, he killed his wife and her sister in a plane crash. A plane he never should have been piloting in the first place. That's just a footnote we're going to gloss over over here. And people are sick of it. They're sick of it. And this New York magazine piece is a very toothless attempt to try to get in on that conversation, but you can't go in like just waiting up to your ankles in the water. You got to go all the way in or otherwise get out. Oh, Maureen, I love it. We're going to talk more about that CNN series that you've been covering after the break. And And before we jump to the break, I just want to leave everyone with one quote from Jack Schlossberg to New York Meg. He says, it's not me of his online persona, quote, it's a character based on an algorithm controlled by giant companies.

I can talk all I want about something super serious, and I'll show you the numbers. It doesn't work. Just find that quote to be profoundly sad. More with Marine, right after this. First, I want to tell you about pre-born. And over the years, I have been clear. I'm not just pro-birth. I am pro-life.

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she is get this, twice as likely to choose life. So amazing. Pre-born is trying to save 70,000 babies this year. So don't just say your pro-life. Live it. Help save babies and support mothers today. Go to pre-born.com slash Emily or call 855-601-229. That's pre-born.com slash Emily. Marine, that ad in a weird way reminds me of how the religion has been completely sucked out of the Kennedy family. It's none of that anymore. You just never see them around any religious motifs talking about anything. It's like all but gone. And that was at least as a pretense, a pretty hefty part of their earlier image.

I like it, though. At least it's honest. That's true. That's true. Again, we are joined by Marine Callahan. You know Marine Callahan. She's the host of The Nerve with Maureen Callahan, also in MK Media podcast. So make sure to go over there and subscribe if you are not already subscribed.

Also make sure to subscribe here if you're not already subscribed. Don't be ridiculous. Now, Maureen, I am a huge Real Housewives of New York fan, and you have done a lot of coverage over the years on the Real Housewives of New York, but recently you have zeroed in on former Real Housewives of New York City housewife, Carol Radzwell, who is a pretty simple. significant part of the new CNN docu series on John F. Kennedy Jr., where they are really massaging history, and I'm eager to get your take on this, but Radswell is going a little bit viral

for some comments she made about RFK Jr. on the Kara Swisher podcast. This is like my nightmare blunt rotation, Marine. I know. I'm right there with you, Emily. Let's go ahead and roll S5. I mean, he really made his mark going, being an anti-vaxxer. That was his whole thing. My feeling is like he had exhausted everything he could possibly write and talk about on the environment, which I think always was his true passion, at least when I knew him. And then like, okay, it was almost like a money thing. So how are you going to switch?

And now you're going to write 10 books on pharmaceutical companies and vaccines. And that just became like, it's almost like a, to my head, it's like a business move. A grift. Agree. Yeah. So that's insane to me, the idea that this is a business move when all you can write about right now is climate change and you'll get your books sold literally anywhere that they hawk books like that. But, Marin, maybe I'm to, I'm being uncharitable towards Carol. What do you make of that accusation that RFK Jr. pivoted to vaccine safety for the sake of kind of making more money after he ran. and other things to write on the environment.

Well, it's not a very sexy topic, number one. Number two, I remember when that book was being published. And I tried to get an advanced copy of it, which any publisher always wants. It's very hard to sort of pierce through in the culture these days with a book. And they were like hiding it. It was like they were ashamed of it.

Like the real Fauci, the real Anthony Fauci, that book, like they were trying to bury it, you know. Times have since changed. I find it, I just don't think Carol is very bright and I don't think she does the reading because he's not making a ton of money as a cabinet appointee. He's not. And number two, she's like, oh, this was just a cynical ploy to get money and attention. He had nothing left, says the woman who for the past 20 plus years has been feasting on the

dead carcasses of JFK Jr. And I don't know if you knew this, Emily, but they were family. Yeah. It's come up once or twice. She was married to JFK Jr.'s cousin, which made John Kennedy, Jr., who she knew, that was her cousin, too. And then Carolyn, who was married to John, she was also Carol's family. So they were sisters, really. But she doesn't want to belabor at that point. She just wants to make sure you know that they were family. You know, I think she also, this one, you genuinely don't hear her talk about it. I think she also was friends with Galane Maxwell and has tried to downplay that recently,

and Marie New haven't let her off the hook on that one. Well, yes, you're so right. Like on the other, so one of our troublemakers emailed me and said, hey, like, do you remember who took Carol's author photo for what remains? And I said, no. And I went and grabbed my copy and looked and lo and behold, Emily. It was Galane Maxwell. The photo credit on the book jacket.

It's unbelievable. So on that point, Radzwell is, she appeared on Watch What Happens Live recently, trying to get back in the good graces of the Bravoverse. That is very interesting. Maureen, what do you think the plausibility of that relationship actually being mended and then maybe growing into something different or growing into something bigger again is? And is that what, whereas any of this, like what is her strategy right now? Like, what is Carol Radzal Will doing? She's out promoting the docu series. So she's obviously involved with CNN and the promotion.

She's not laying low. That much is clear at this point. No, she loves fame. She pretends that she doesn't. Like, her drag is as a public intellectual. Okay. But she, I think, is trying to, you know, she's also on the show, on the nerve we call Carrie Bradshaw,

like our favorite Sprightly 900-year-old heroine. And I think of Carol Razzwell as like our favorite sprightly 700-year-old influencer. Like she's off in the south of France right now being fabulous, subsidized by whom I have no idea. There was a time after Housewives, I don't know if you remember this, Emily, but this is like where the off-screen melds with the on-screen and it's so great. She was so desperate for cash. She was just my opinion. She was hawking like her used underwear on Poshmark. And then she was selling a neckline.

that had as its charm like a vibrator, I mean, Lee Razzal will would never, would never. You'd think, and yet the modern Kennedys tell us that this is all very chic and very, you know, liberal and good. I mean... It's funny because I think Carol, I pause it in tomorrow's nerve, you know, the morning she's been doing,

Lowe these many years has really been about her expulsion from the Kennedy family. Once they all died, that was it for her. They have no interest in Carol. They can see a fame horror like her coming a mile away. I do think though your theory is probably right. There's talk that they're trying to recast yet another iteration of New York City. Right.

And I'm sure she would like to paint herself or possibly be in the running as like a grand dom of the new iteration. Well, this is where I wanted to go next because I know we have a lot of people who watch the show for politics and, like, serious cultural conversations. And I actually have always defended Bravo as part of a very serious cultural conversation. And Emering, you have always framed it that way as well. And I think actually we probably disagree a bit on Bravo. But there was this fascinating exclusive that Kelly Ben-Simone, who is a Real House of New York City star from when the show first started, to star,

where she talks about the second iteration, like Roney Next Generation, of the show, which was an abject disaster. Ben Simone said about that reboot, quote, nobody cares about someone's influencing career. And in the kind of Bravo fan world, there's been a lot of conversation about how influencer culture has kind of ruined Bravo, or at least really changed Bravo. Two things kind of happened at the same time, influencer culture and cancel culture. And you take someone like Ramona Singer, who's out in the Hamptons, partying with Trump fundraisers, and then down at Mar-a-Lago, like actually hanging out with Siggy Flickr and other, you know, Trump supportive reality stars and honestly politicians,

that becomes untenable for Bravo when you have canceled culture and nobody, like everyone suddenly says that your reality stars must be heroes, not anti-heroes, though they were literally always anti-heroes. The show was always, they weren't aware, but my perspective on it is it was always sort of a critique of them. They were always the butt of the joke. And it was really important to cast people who didn't know that they were the butt of the joke. But if you're an influencer, you have to be, you have to be in on the joke because you're peddling shit. You're on the show to sell whatever on Poshmark. Maybe you're used underwear on Poshmark, more likely some like dumb candleline or whatever it is. And it's just this really interesting, I think, arc of what media has done not just to reality TV, because

it's reality TV is relatively new in and of itself, but to the way that we relate to people on screens. I don't know, Maureen. Well, the problem too, though, Emily, with reality TV is, and I was a huge, huge fan of those shows for a long time. They've gotten so dark, and they've had cast members most recently who they've been trying to excuse and keep around a guy who's admitted to domestic abuse, domestic violence of his wife. But what I think happened is, you know, once you're in the reality TV world, you learn very quickly how it works. You learn very quickly what they want. You learn very quickly.

Even if you look at the way people hug on TV now, they do the soap opera hug, right? It's never like hugging somebody face-to-face chest on. It's always like the side-by-side head. So you can see both expressions at once. You become, they become actors. And they are in a way, like, they are talents in that way, but they know exactly what story they're going to do, what conflict they're going to pick up and what they're going to leave off screen and on screen. And so what you get is a version of reality that is not true reality. Those early days were great because you had people who had no guile and really didn't know what they were doing. And then they get a look at themselves.

And, you know, you see by season two, by season three, they've got a better hair colorist. They've been to the plastic surgeon. Got a better husband. They got a better husband. The wardrobe's been upgraded. And it becomes this, you're in the machine. And what happened with the second version of Roney was they cast people who had no preexisting relationships to each other whatsoever. So you have no stakes.

If a friendship of longstanding is on the verge of breaking up, as often happens on these shows, that's real stakes. That's high stakes. If a marriage is about to break up, if a business is about to break up. But if your biggest problem is you're having trouble shipping out your eyelashes from your big, expensive multi-million dollar loft downtown, it's boring. Nobody wants it. And none of these women were willing to put anything real about themselves out there.

That is so true. Last question, Marine, do you think they're going to actually bring it back? There's rumors that it's just going to get axed. But are they serious about really trying? I think they can try it. I don't know if you can ever recapture that lightning in a bottle. again. Completely agree. I wonder if Rad's will is auditioning in a way. Oh, I think her whole life has been one long audition. She's ready for her close-up, always. We're actually ending it on a,

I think, a very profound note, what you just said, because the melding of the two mediums then becomes reality. And it changes all of our realities. So Marine, obviously, host of the nerve with Marine Callahan. Make sure you subscribe. I've been looking forward to this one. Thank you so much for in here. Thank you so much for having me, Emily. It's great fun. I loved it and basically just monopolize it for my personal questions to you and Marine, which could go on for another six hours. So I'll let you back to your evening. All right. I hope to see you soon, Emily. Sounds good. All right, before we get to, man, I just have to keep going. That was so interesting. So I'm going to have more thoughts on that right after this. Did you know, all chips and fries used to be cooked in tallow up until the

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And it just occurs to me that I should beg you for your support. No, I'm kidding. We're grateful for everybody, of course. and it's just been a blast these first couple of months. So thank you all. I really have been looking forward to having Maureen here, partially because I'm fascinated. And like I just mentioned,

I did monopolize that a little bit with my personal questions because I could just keep going on and on with Maureen. She knows so much. She's such a treasure trove. She's a fault of fascinating information. But I actually want to put this New York Times article up on the screen from today. about how, or just from the last couple of days, about how Gen Z is, quote, resurrecting the 1990s.

We end up talking a lot about generational differences on this show. And part of the reason for that is because I actually think it's one of the least appreciated, the least appreciated parts of our politics and our culture. And it's not like there aren't a million headlines about Gen Z and millennials every single day. But what I mean by that being underappreciated, the storyline being underappreciated, is that these generational markers are happening faster and more furious than they ever have in human history. So a generation of 20 years, let's say, or 30 years, 300 years ago, the generational differences were not as significant as, you know, the fact that, let's say, my brother is four years younger than me.

He had a completely different experience with smartphones and social media than I did. I got into high school, what, 2007? So he got in the high school 2011. Kids had smartphones in high school in 2011. I didn't have a smartphone until I was in college. And what was on those smartphones in 2011? Twitter, Instagram, social media, Facebook. All of it was there.

And that is just a hugely significant change. Well, what about people four years earlier than him, eight years earlier than him? Well, they're on TikTok. And TikTok completely changed the advertising industry. It completely changed everything. Changed everything. And it's not been here with us for a decade. So one of the reasons that I like to focus on these stories

is that they are just so, they're happening so fast and furious that they're creating these really salient, rigid differences between generations that I think we forget how quickly some of this stuff has happened. So in this story about Gen Z, I'm actually going to put it up on the screen. We don't need to look at Jack Schlosberg's YouTube channel anymore, although he is technically a millennial.

He's my age. He was born in 1983. But here is the New York Times article. They say, Working Together, the author who engaged in a survey, says, working together, we explore Gen Z's views of pre-digital cultural products, media, hobbies, and traditions. The resulting analysis done last year found that members of Gen Z appear to be mining the past to enrich their present lives, especially by fostering a greater appreciation. for offline living.

Now, I saw this story in the New York Times and found it really to be an important landmark because I went on Ezra Klein's podcast last year. And we were talking about the new right and some of the differences between the new right and the old right, what's driving young conservatives to this new conservative brand, what's driving them towards MAGA, what's driving them towards MAGA, what's driving them towards,

what a lot of people on the left would probably describe as reactionary politics. I think that's probably accurate on some level. But it's a bigger conversation that we started last week about why young people are flocking to Latin Mass in the Catholic Church. Why are young people going to more traditionalist services? And it's in some ways because this just description here pre-digital culture, you can see it. You can see it. Never before has, has any generation had so much access to videos of their parents, pictures of their parents, of their grandparents? Just think about that.

To the world, to geopolitics over the last 100 years. That stacks on top of itself. I've probably mentioned this bitterly before, but music nerds, let's say you're, you know, in your 60s, music nerds in your 60s, rattling off, you know, everything that they were listening to when they were 20. I'm like, man, yeah, you could listen to all of that because, you know, mass production and mass music broadcasting had been around for 30 years at that point, 40 years at that point. And it stacks, it grows. And so if you are, you know,

millennial or if you're Gen Z, you have, what, nearly a hundred years of this going, of this to work with. And that does heighten the sensation of nostalgia, of course, because you actually just have more to look at. And the pictures that we've preserved for some really good reasons are rosier ones, right? And we all know rose-colored lenses, we get it. All of that is, all of that is real. We also have some really ugly pictures from conflicts, from the Great Depression, from civil rights, and all of that. But when I was on Deser Klein Show last year, I was thinking, you know, I said this. Gen Z is binging nostalgia videos. Binging nostalgia videos are binging videos of what it was like to be in high school in the 1990s or 2000s on YouTube and TikTok and whatever else.

And I remember some people asking me for proof of that. And I was like, talk to, talk to Gen Z. Ask them if they're doing it. They are. And part of it is that it's fascinating. It's even interesting for me to see what high school looked like in the 1990s, though, or in the 1980s, I should say. Because in the 1990s, it looked really similar to what it looked like to me in the 2000s. And that is just so different now.

These things are changing so quickly that if you were in high school in the 2010s, the 2020s look so, so different in a way that that didn't have. before. But now there's just so much content to watch, to pine after, to learn from. I suppose you could say in a good way, but it's quite interesting that Gen Z, and this New York Times piece has some numbers on it, say that they have a lot of problems. Like why go to CDs, why go to vinyl, why go to physical books, why go to board games? This is a time saying consumer trends suggest that many members of Gen Z yearn for a taste of the pre-digital era. Why would that be? Well, the story also cites surveys, a 2020-3 survey conducted by the Harris poll in partnership with his research team, the author's research team, found that 80% of Gen Z adults, people born

after 1997, were worried that their generation was too dependent on technology, 75% were concerned about social media's impact on young people's mental health, and 58% said that new technologies were more likely to drive people apart than bring them together. As a researcher who specializes in the psychology of nostalgia, I was struck by one finding in particular, the author writes, 60% of Gen Z adults said they wished they could return to a time before everyone was plugged in. 60% of Gen Z adults said they wished they could return to a time before everyone was plugged in. That is a profound indictment on the world that our children are inheriting

because there is no mass movement right now to make that experience possible. There are some people who have written, John Hyatt obviously covers this closely. There are some people, Claire Morel, others who have written really good books on this topic for phone-free childhoods, for example. But there has been no reckoning about. anything as it pertains to genuinely changing the way that these that that we relate to each other, that the world works and how these technologies have been integrated into everything for adults, right? There's a lot of talk about kids, but Gen Z is not five years old. Gen Z is not eight

years old. We're not worried about Gen Z getting their first iPad at this point. We're beyond that. Gen Z's in the workforce. And they wish they could go to a time before everyone was plugged in. Majority of them wish they could go to a time before everyone was plugged in. And you know what? That comes with a little bit of credibility because they didn't live it, but they're seeing it. They're seeing it all around them. And they're seeking it out.

They want to know what that looks like. And this happened, if you lived through it, it happened so quickly, were frogs in the proverbial boiling pot. One day, you didn't have, I mean, maybe you had a beeper, or you had a Blackberry, but one day, basically, or one decade, you could go on vacation, and your office would have to ring you at the hotel

and leave a voicemail telling you to call, and you wouldn't get that until after you came back from the beach or after you were out on a hike or whatever. Now, how hard is it to put your phone down for a hike? when the best news or the worst news of your entire life is just a split second away at any given moment. It is just the dopamine refresher of pulling up your phone and checking those notifications. And it could be, again, the worst news of your life, it could be the best news of your life. Someone you love, something could have happened to.

Randomly someone could have discovered you, offered you a better job, offered you a raise. Those are the things that we get in emails. Those are the things that we get in Slack messages. Those are Facebook, Instagram, all of those things are always at a moment's reach in your pocket. And we barely think about the way that's rewired our brains to constantly be faced with crisis, chaos, let alone the implications of the globe shrinking to the point where you are bombarded constantly with images of paris or. or propaganda from the other side of the world, and then asked, because of the way the algorithm, reshaped our political discourse,

to have an opinion on it. And that's where I want to just return to this Jack Schlossberg quote from the New York Magazine article we were discussing with Maureen Callahan on the Kennedy family. Jack Schlesberg, Gen Z Kennedy burgeoning icon. He's being tapped by Chuck Schumer for the America 250 commission. He's started his YouTube channel and is vanning around the country, He has had some formal affiliations with Democratic campaigning that have reached varying degrees of success.

Anyway, he's doing something that's deeply weird. His persona is deeply weird to the point where even members of his family have been uncomfortable with it. And here's what he said. It's not me. It's a character based on an algorithm controlled by giant companies. I can talk all I want about something super serious, and I'll show you the numbers. It doesn't work. Whether he means it to be or not, that is a very profound insight.

It is McLuhan-esque. It echoes Marshall McLuhan very, you know, in a way that the famous, the medium is the message, right? It echoes that in a way that we have just completely missed. But this really picks up on it. So Marshall McLuhan in 1964 wrote, it's important to finish the quote because it often gets used by like dumb PR keynote speakers who are saying, if you're doing this on Vine, it has to be short. Oh, okay, thank you. The medium is the message.

That's exactly what McLuhan was talking about. No. McLuhan wrote, the message of any medium or technology is the change of scale or pace or pattern that it introduces into human affairs. Now, this is the important part that doesn't often get quoted. It is the medium that shapes and controls the scale and form of human association and action. It is the medium that shapes and controls the scale and form of human association and action. What does that mean? It means that when Marine was talking about how people now hug each other on reality television,

cheek to cheek, instead of just normal bear hugging each other, they're still giving each other hugs, right? But the hug itself has changed because they're doing something for a camera. Now, we are all constantly living our lives aware that there are ring cameras on every doorbell, that there's CCTV on every corner of every city, and that you are being photographed all of the time. And that, again, like photography, very new, was a moral panic in and of itself when it came out, but it's escalated so quickly. And when Schlossberg says, it's not me, it's my online persona,

it's sad because it is also clearly him. It's also clearly him. And this is the way that he's choosing to interact with the world. And he says it's being governed by an algorithm, which is being governed by a company. And that is completely accurate. That weird Melania Trump impression that we played earlier on the show that Jack Shlossberg did in an attempt to undermine the Trump administration who he disagrees with politically, why did he do that?

Because it's a character based on an algorithm controlled by giant companies. In other words, if I didn't have to get my message out on a digital casino platform, I would not be doing this. I would not be donning a bizarre wig and doing a hackneyed impression of Melania Trump

that is not tethered in reality and doesn't actually make a point, right? Like he didn't attach any satirical point to it. He was being weird for the algo. That's what it was. Because as people try to figure out what the hell he's talking about, what he's doing, what is what happens?

Well, that's what gets amplified. It's the intrigue and the mystery and the WTF. So that's where we're heading. And why, maybe I should have said this at the beginning of the show after we, you know, spent dozens of minutes talking about the Real Housewives. But this to me is, you know, it's late August in the first year of Trump's second presidency. And I just really think what we're beginning to see right now is a world without media. We're seeing the media adapt to life without media gatekeepers. We're seeing power brokers adapt to life without the same level of control.

had over the American people, they had over the culture. And think about Gavin Newsom right now. So social media is the key medium for political discourse that Schlossberg is mentioning. So Newsom's message is now being totally reshaped by that medium itself. So what Gavin Newsom is doing would not exist right now without Twitter. And this is where it gets very, very meta. He is campaigning for the algorithm. But in his campaigning for the algorithm, he is commenting on Trump's campaigning for the algorithm, right? Nobody is better with the algorithm than Donald freaking Trump. And Gavin Newsom's campaign right now is a comment on Trump's algorithmic brilliance.

And Trump obviously posts the way that he posts, right? He reposted his famous Cinco de Mayo tweet recently. I think he does it like every year on single de Mayo. One of the greatest tweets of all time, bar none, hard to beat, except for his tweets about Robert Pattinson and Kristen Stewart's relationship. and I mean not just the best Donald Trump tweets. These are the best tweets of all time. Goaded, no question about it.

He had so many thoughts for Rob Pattinson, and he had to share them publicly. He didn't seem to have a private channel to get to Rob Pattinson, circa 2012. So this was the best that he could do. He offered Rob Pattinson a lifeline, and Pattinson apparently took it from the future president of the United States.

These are gold, incredible tweets. If you haven't seen them, you need to look them up. But that's communication for the media. right? You used to be 140 characters, now it's 280. Do you see how the vehicle itself has changed what's being said? It's not just that you're sending the same message in a different vehicle, it's that we are being changed by the vehicles. What we're saying, what we're doing. We are hugging differently. We are living differently. And that's where AI being inserted into our lives in a way that feels undemocratic and inevitable, just as many technologies have been over the years. we haven't kept pace with how significantly that's changing. I mean, there's just a BBC story today about how YouTube had smoothed.

They'd run an experiment with YouTube shorts where they were smoothing with AI, people's faces and wrinkles in their clothing and all of that. So are people just going to be walking around and wrinkled shirts in the future? It's great news for me. Probably not great news for society and my friends who care deeply about people not wearing jeans on airplanes. But seriously, think about that. If you live your life for a camera because you work on Zoom, are irons going out of business?

Is that what we want? You know, if we start interacting with each other more and more that way, I mean, it's kind of a silly example, right? But AI itself has already changed, it's already changed us, whether we like it or not. It's changed the way that we think about the world, it's changed the way that we see the world, it does autocomplete of sentences and ways that

that are changing the language that we use, the words that we speak, and very mindlessly, and it's intentionally mindless on our behalf. So when I read that Jack Schlaasberg quote today, and I was thinking about talking to Marine, who follows Bravo very closely, and Bravo is a very big part of millennial culture, millennial meme culture, whether or not people

even watch the shows, watch the shows. When we were talking about, when I was thinking about that, I just, that is the theme of today's show. Donald Trump is firing people from the firing governors of the Federal Reserve. And the people are pan, the power brokers are panicking. The American people will probably be split on it. That would be my guess. It's not the political disaster crisis that everyone said, everyone would have said it would have been, you know, 1995. Why is that? Well, it's a low

institutional trust and the gatekeepers have lost their power. And we're changing them and they're still changing us. It's just an interplay back and forth. But this is a life in the middle of a revolution. And sometimes I think we just lose sight of that. And I really wish the real houses if New York had never been rebooted. It's a tarnished the legacy of a great show. All right, on that note, I better get out of here.

As a reminder, you can always email me. Emily at double make care of media.com. I'm probably going to give a bunch of emails saying that today's show. was to gossipy. I'm sorry. We'll get away from the gossip later. But sometimes we learn a lot about our culture through the stories of powerful people, famous people. We learn a lot about ourselves. We learn a lot about the media and about technology. So thank you for hanging in there. I loved it. I was fascinated by everything Marine had to say. Make sure you subscribe over at The Nerve with Maureen Callahan. Make sure you subscribe here. Send an email, Emily at devilmaicaremedia.com.

Hope you've been enjoying the show live or maybe over breakfast next morning, maybe on your run. We are here at 10 p.m. Mondays and Wednesdays. We'll see you back here on Wednesday with more after party.