After Party with Emily Jashinsky - Vance Smears, Pride’s Downfall, PLUS Obama and the Ruling Class, with Glenn Greenwald

Episode Date: June 25, 2026

Emily Jashinsky is joined by Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist Glenn Greenwald for a wide-ranging discussion on politics, culture, and media. The conversation begins with subjecting Glenn to a clip from “The View” amid the growing debate over U.S. foreign policy linked to Israel. They examine whether criticism of Israel is too often conflated with antisemitism and how public attitudes on the issue are shifting. Then Emily and Glenn explore questions about the future of the MAGA movement beyond Donald Trump, concerns about those in his orbit, and the role fragmented media ecosystems play in shaping what voters know. The discussion also turns to changing attitudes toward LGBT issues and the influence of activist and special-interest groups on the public discourse. Later, they examine patriotism through the lens of the World Cup and critique the political establishment during a discussion about the Obama Presidential Center and the close relationships among America’s political elite. The show concludes with Emily’s cultural analysis of Apple TV’s Widow’s Bay, using the series as a springboard for a broader conversation about religion, technology, modernity, secularism, and the growing interest in spiritual and philosophical “re-enchantment,” and more…   USAFacts: Demand government accountability by signing the open letter for reliable public data at https://USAFacts.org/supportdata   Toups & Co: Ready to give Toups a try? Get 25% off your first order by going to https://toupsandco.com/afterparty , and use code AFTERPARTY for 25% off your first order.   Beam: Visit https://shopbeam.com/AFTERPARTY and use code AFTERPARTY to get our exclusive discount of up to 40% off. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Welcome to After Party, everyone. So glad you're here. Our guest tonight is Glenn Greenwald. Make sure to subscribe. If you haven't subscribed yet, subscribing on YouTube is really the biggest way to help us out. Tell your friends, like, comment. All of that is so helpful. Subscribe on your podcast feed if you want access to our Friday episodes. They're totally free. They just are audio only. So they pop up if you subscribe to the podcast, which is a great way to support the show as well. Also, leaving reviews on the podcast feeds are helpful as well. Now, on today's show with Glenn, we had and as on for the Big 100. And we talked about a lot of the problems that the left has. We're bringing on Glenn, because that's what we're building here at after party, show where we can have fun and poke at, whoever needs to be poked at on any given day.

We have a lot to go over here. Not just by poking at the right. There are some real questions that we're going to talk about. Tim Dillon has declared MAGA to be quote over in massive protests against Jared Kushner in Albania. So we're going to get into some of that with Glenn. But also, some of the excesses that we've seen pride month being targeted in different communities around the country towards children.

The hilarious Obama library celebrations between the Bushes, the Obamas, the Clintons, Hillary's outfit was gorgeous, on point, beautiful, of course. World Cup patriotism, all kinds of fun questions being raised about that. And Glenn, of course, famously hates America. Kidding. But we're going to see if he has some interesting perspective on that. Of course, though, we will be starting with developments in the Iran negotiations. We have a clip from the view. You're not talking about Iran unless you're talking about the view, as you all know, that we're going to get Glenn's response to. And by the way, I said Glenn is our guest tonight. This is a top secret, confidential insight. And that is to say, I'm getting, by the way, right now,

a breaking points team call. That's what you're hearing in the background. Not answering. Sorry, guys. Apologies. They're so desperate to get in touch with me. I can't go a couple hours without hearing from me, hearing my voice. It's very reassuring to the team. But in all seriousness, we do have a lot to get to today. Dirty little secret, though, as I was just about to say, you heard me say, Glenn is our guest tonight. By the time this airs, hopefully I'll be in Brazil, going there for a YouTube thing. So this is technically coming at you on Tuesday evening. So with that said, let's go ahead. Oh, by the way, I should mention I'm going to do a segment at the end of the show on Widows Bay. Just finished a truly ridiculous binge, like a two-day binge of a 10-episode show that was

wildly responsible on my end, but I have some thoughts on what it says about this cultural moment on religion, Christianity, the kind of re-enchantment discourse. So don't miss that. Sit around to the end if you are here for Glenn. Stay. Stay for Widows Bay. Why would you not? All right, let's go ahead. We're going to take quick break and then bring in the one and only Glenn Greenwald. This episode is sponsored by USA Facts, a nonpartisan organization making government data easier to access and to understand. I'm partnering with them on a campaign called the data we depend on. The idea is pretty simple. If the government is going to spend all of our taxpayer money and make massive decisions, it should actually have to show its work. How about that? That starts, of course,

with reliable public data. Government data helps track the economy, spending, and education. You've actually probably heard me citing sources like the BLS, the IRS, or the DHS. But when that data is slow, incomplete, or hard to access, as trust me it often is, lawmakers have less to work with. journalists have less to check and the public has a harder time finding the truth. So if you care about accountability, you can't measure if programs are working or call out failure if the basic facts are buried. USAFax is asking Americans to sign an open letter to lawmakers in Congress. The ask is straightforward. Use data to legislate and fix the data when it falls short. This is not a partisan issue. Whether you want more government, less government, or just a government

that has to show its math, you need reliable facts. Read and sign the letter at usafax. org slash support data. Well, Pulitzer Prize winning journalist Glenn Greenwald is slumming it with us here on afterparty tonight. You can find him on substack at greenwold.substack.com. It's a great follow. If you aren't doing it, you got to follow greenwold. That substack.com.

Glenn, thanks for being here. Thank you for having me. Happy birthday or to your show or whatever milestone we're celebrating. Was it like 10,000 shows or something? Yeah, 10,000 or one. Actually, 100. Wow, that's a lot. I feel like I've been on for like five.

of them. I'm so sorry for taking it. Congratulations. It's obviously a success and I didn't expect anything less. I thought you were going to say I didn't expect it. So here you are. No, no, I did expect it. Good. Well, yeah, exactly, Glenn. But anyway, it's thanks to a great guest.

Like you, of course, for someone with us here on After Party, speaking of which, I know one of the reasons that you keep coming back is that I keep making you watch the view, which I shouldn't say making you watch the view. I think people understand at this point you're a secret viewhead. Like you rarely miss an episode. But in case you missed Tuesday's episode, there was a discussion that just jumped off the screen

as something we needed Glenn Greenwald to comment on. It's a debate really between Joy Behar and Sunny Hosten on Israel. Two intellectual giants in media. Always like a very heavyweight debate. Could be Pulitzer Prize winners themselves. actually someday. Should be. Should be, actually. I've always argued. If the system were fair, we would see that. But all right, let's roll this clip. I want to get your reaction on the other side.

They're upset about foreign wars, and they're upset about Israel. And if you look at it, you know... But don't blame the Jews for that. Blame them. Let me just finish this point. I'm talking about Israel. I'm not talking about Jewish people. I think they're synonymous, aren't they? No, they're not. I think criticism of a government is different than... One visit from J.D. Vance. Yeah, but I'm saying that even if what you say is correct,

they need to take responsibility for what they did. They do. And stop scapegoating and other countries. I think I'd be one thing to capture what you're saying, Sonny, not everyone critical of Israel is an anti-Semite. Correct. And every anti-Semite is critical of Israel, too. So it is a very hazy line because a lot of people.

You can. You can. But I'm saying a lot of people hide behind that. Of course. I'm critical of Net and Yahoo, but I think it is deeply, deep, deep. a cop out to say that the most powerful nation on earth with the most powerful armed forces on earth the United States was solely influenced by this tiny democracy in the Middle East.

Turning into breaking points, apparently, Glenn, over at the view. The reason I want to talk about this is I mentioned J.D. Vance. Of course, Vance was on the show last week and Joy Behar was like, I don't know, I kind of liked them. He was more normal than I expected. He really charmed them. He really charmed those view ladies. Put some sort of spell on them, apparently. But it's actually so similar to, and we're going to get into this in just a moment, I've prepared an absolute barrage of posts about J.D. Vance from some pro-Israel folks on the other side of this that we're going to see. But it's so similar to what J.D. Vance has faced over the last several days and what people like yourself have faced literally for years. If you're critical of Israel being immediately

castigated as an anti-Semite categorized as an anti-Semite, it must be amusing for you, honestly, to see this trickle into a conversation on the view and perhaps reflective of where public opinion on Israel has gone rather unexpectedly. Yeah. I mean, first of all, on the view, I really used to have this, like, consuming contempt. Like, I really did believe that if you commit the most egregious moral sins and crimes, like the most unfathomable and unthinkable, the level of hell that you get relegated to is one where you just watch the women on the view arguing about politics for all of eternity. And I've since kind of changed my mind and I know, like, there's such caricatures that I almost see

them as high camp. And I've really, like, let go. of this like discuss that I have for them and kind of like just appreciated the way that you do kind of a car wreck. And you know, there's a lot to say about that exchange, but the point that you referenced in your question, I think, is probably at least for me, the most interesting one, which is that 20 years ago, 10 years ago, I would even say five years ago, this whole debate about the power of the Israel lobby, the extraordinary and virtually inexplicable influence it has on American politics, but especially on our foreign policy, was one of the most taboo topics there was. The first ever real discussion of it was a 2007 book by Professor's John Mearsheimer and Stephen

Walt called The Israel Lobby. And to say, if you didn't live through that, to say that they were demonized and their reputations were basically destroyed, they were saved by the fact that they have ten years as scholars, is to understate the case. But even for a long time since, nobody wanted to touch this topic. a lot of the people who talk most about it now, like, for example, Tucker Carlson, never once mentioned Israel or the debate about Israel on Fox.

This was a topic almost everybody understood. They were well incentivized to simply avoid. And as somebody who has been on this for quite a long time now, not just years, but really decades, it's one of those things that actually gives you encouragement that now this question that we should have been debating for quite a long time, but that has really been successfully repressed,

has now so exploded that it even enters the most banal and mainstream places like the view where they're having debates about the extent to which you can talk about the influence of the Israel lobby. And of course, the immediate response will be anti-Semitism. That had always been the third rail of American politics. The one thing you didn't want to stand accused of is anti-Semitism. But now that that tactic has become both so overused but transparently deceitful in this context, It's really lost its sting.

You see, like, even when Sunny Hustin was accused of that, she didn't really back down. Like, she was very assertive, like, no, we have the right to discuss it's real. And we won't be accused of anti-Semitism. And that, to me, I can't say that I expected as somebody hoping for this, that I would see that happen so quickly and so drastically, in my view, to such positive effect. Yeah, it's reflected in the polling.

I mean, the fact that it's sneaking into popular culture and daytime television is completely in line with what we've started to see show up in polling, especially among younger Americans, but J.D. Vance has been getting, as these Iran negotiations proceed, things are, I would say predictably in this case, murky, but absolutely hounded by Netanyahu allies. Kind of interesting, by the way, to your point that Alyssa Farrow was like, I'm even critical of Netanyahu in that view clip, which is in and of itself a telling moment. But Vance is getting, I prepared something for you, Glenn, that I think you're going to like. This was prepared specifically for you, by the way. absolutely hounded. And the line of attack is that he is somehow secretly, he has been Tucker

Carlsonified as Bacha, who's been on the show, has coined the term, the Tucker Carlson vacation of J.D. Vance, that he's in lockstep with Tucker Carlson. He's being influenced sort of secretly by Tucker Carlson. A lot of these posts are implying that there's some type of shadowy conspiracy where Vance is being advised by Tucker Carlson, or he's secretly just a groiper like Tucker Carlson all along and now you're starting to see it creep out, but they're predicated on this idea that he's out of step with the president of the United States, which is so funny. It's so funny for so many reasons. I actually just wanted to go through some of these posts. You're going to enjoy this. This is just for you, Glenn. Let's start with Amit Siegel. I'm no professional, but I think I can

spot the signs of a toxic relationship, threats of violence, desperately defending the partner's behavior, cutting you off from your friends, training your resources. gaslighting by most of these measures, Vice President J.D. Vance is in a toxic relationship with the Islamic Republic of Iran. Incredible stuff. I'm just going to keep moving through these. Ari Hoffman, VP, J.D. V.D. Vance on Iran and Israel. Do I think there are people within an Israeli society who would like to turn Iran into Libya, basically a failed state with 90 million people? Probably. And Ari writes, I didn't know Tucker Carlson, was our VP? Continue going. I really do have a lot of these. You're welcome. Laibel Wiener says J.D. Vance is very close friends with Tucker Carlson,

while very close friends don't have to agree on every detail, they do always share similar foundational beliefs. Otherwise, they wouldn't be very close. If you think J.D.'s opinions on Israel aren't somewhat similar to Tucker's, I got a bridge to sell you. He hates Israel and cannot stand B.B. Both Tucker and J.D.'s hatred for Israel is fueled by their Catholicism. Tucker, by the way. The religious beliefs are antithetical to the state of Israel. Just in USA. That's an interesting last name. Vance is morphing into Tucker Carlson right in front of our eyes. that was in response to Vance telling Allie Beth Stucky, quote, if everything is Jew hatred, then nothing is Jew hatred.

Someone who defines themselves as Christian conservative business owner, writing the Republic, says, Vance knows exactly what Megan Tucker and Candace have been doing. He is friends with him. That is why he is this administration's single greatest liability. Don't worry. I still have like five more, Glenn. Oh, good, good. I was definitely not exhausted in my supply yet.

I hope you have like 12 more. That's what of my number that I'm hoping. You're just like injecting this right into the veins. Joel Mowbray, who was at the Foundation for Defense of Democracies at some point, says J.D. Vance, disavowing Tucker would be great, but I'd be happy with much less for now. The Veep just went on with Blonde Tucker to discuss Iran. That's your nickname for Megan, too, Glenn. I've always called her that long before the Israel issue.

She's Blonde Tucker. Blonde Tucker. Nirvana Mahmood says Qatar influenced Tucker Carlson. Tucker Carlson influenced J.D. Vance. The rest is history. Harani, David Harani, my former colleague at the Federalist, says, Vance is just a less honest Tucker Carlson. Once you think about him in that way, it will all make sense. On Patrick Bet David, Jeremy Boring said J.D. Vance must distance himself from Tucker. And then Baccio, of course, said that Vice President J.D. Vance spent the weekend, spent the week telling us how cool it is that the IRGC wants to be friends while calling Israel an ungrateful pariah undermining the United States. Richard Hanania. I don't know about dangers for the Jewish community in response to Vance going on Megan Schrofen.

on Tucker's show, I'm sorry, but something that is uniquely discussing about Vance is how much he legitimizes the worst people out there. Tucker is only connected to the admin because of him. That is not true at all whatsoever for what it's worth, but it goes back to this conspiracy theory about how Tucker's son was working for J.D. at one point, it was connected to him through that point. Max Abrams has been all over this posting, let's talk about the relationship between Vance and Tucker. We know that Tucker personally intervened with Trump to lobby him to pick Vance as the vice president. Vance then hired Tucker's son, who didn't have impressive credentials on any meritocratic basis, also not true. Vance used his position as vice president to try to arrange

high-profile interviews for Tucker as he engaged in various forms of Holocaust denial and constantly disputed that Al-Qaeda carried out 9-11 because it was instead Israel. This is a story about corruption, griperism, and what happens when the drugs of society are elevated to power. And finally, another Max Abrams post, Vance is doing a U.S. foreign policy, what Tucker Carlson did to his show, and what Kevin Roberts did to the Heritage Foundation. But Glenn, I wanted to run these clips of Donald Trump, first of all, giving Vance his full-throated endorsement, and second of all, also being very critical of Israel

in ways some of these same folks, who are very supportive of Israel, have been critical of, that undermine their own conspiracy theories about J.D. Vance. Let's take a look. I'll tell you what. Israel's fighting Israel on too long, and too many people are being killed. And you don't have to knock down an apartment.

house every time you're looking for somebody because there are a lot of people in those apartment houses and they're not all esbalah that i can tell you lord sir you shouldn't let them have any missile i said well what am i going to do i'm going to let sovieta arabia have missiles but they can't have them yes sir can't doesn't work that way you know it doesn't work that way and missiles aren't the problem missiles are they hurt a little location but they don't blow up the planet and i thought j d vets this morning was fantastic. I watched his news conference and from Switzerland. He's a very smart guy.

Did a great job. You know, when I look at the Democrats, I call them the Democrats. They're dumb, the Democrats. One of them thought it was World War 11. She said, World War 11. She bet World War II, you know about that, but this is one of their potential leaders,

Ilhan Omar, and then I watched somebody like J.D. or Marco. What a difference? I said, what a difference? What a difference. What a difference of brain makes. Glenn, is there any significant daylight between Donald Trump and J.D. Vance that would actually supply these theories with substantial evidence? There's so much going on here. So I hope you'll indulge me with a few points. Well, first of all, thank me for compiling all those tweets because that was a real public service. Yes, I had seen almost all of them because, of course, I'm obsessed with this meltdown because it gives me such schadenfreude and pleasure to watch.

People have forgotten that when the never. Never Trump movement first emerged in 2015 and 2016 came in coming from the Republican Party. It was composed almost entirely of neocons and Israel loyalists, people like Bill Crystal and that crowd. And one of the main early causes of the never Trump movement was that Trump had given an interview in 2015 where he was asked about the Israeli-Palestinian situation. And he said we have a lot of business we have to do in the Middle East. And it's crucial that we resolve the Israel-Palestine conflict with a two-state solution.

The problem is that we've been way too pro-Israel and have lost our credibility to negotiate. We have to be much more even-handed between the Israelis and Palestinians. And that's basically satanic for those neocons. And that was one of the very first things that caused them to be alarmed by Trump was this issue. He obviously backtracked that a lot during the campaign, made all kinds of very pro-Israel statements, were it was worth the aid citizens. but I'm just saying that illustrated an instinct to the smarter neocons that Trump wasn't as instinctively reliable and trustworthy on these issues

as most Republican and Democratic presidents had been. But even looking just in the past week, the difference between Trump and Vance on this issue is that Trump has said things about Israel infinitely more disparaging than anything that J.D. Vance has gotten close to saying. I think one of the probably the most extremes example was something that he said after one of those cups you showed. where he started saying how Israel has been too indiscriminate and it's use of violence.

They're blowing up apartment buildings filled with innocent people because they think someone from Hezbollah might nearby. And then he wanted to say, given how reckless they are with human life, I think it might actually be better to give the fight against Hezbollah and entrust that to Jalani, the head of Syria, who has been a lifelong al-Qaeda commander on whom the United States had a huge bounty up until he became the president of Syria. So he's basically saying not only is the IDF or Israel and the IDF, inhumane when it comes to the treatment of civilian life, they're so inhumane that I actually think a more humane job in this war would be prosecuted by the longtime al-Qaeda leader who actually was associated with ISIS and his fight against Assad.

I can't even conceive of a world in which an American president says that about Israel. And yet that's something that Donald Trump said. And the problem for people who are trying to focus us on Vance is, is twofold. One is they don't want to lose influence with Trump. They still hope to be able to manipulate and influence him back onto their sides. They want to avoid criticizing him by pretending this is somehow all J.D. Vance on his own. Right. Like a Mark Levin. But the other issue is, you know, they're really looking to see who the inheritor will be of the Maga movement. And they kind of see this is between Marco Rubio, who they absolutely trust way more to be pro-Israel for good

reason and then J.D. Vance. The thing I think is so interesting here, like part of this, everything that collage of that incredible meltdown, that freak out that you showed me, part of it is strategic. You know, I was just talking before about how Mearsheimer and Walt were viciously and in this very enduring away attack because they were the first serious scholars to elevate this question of Israel's excessive influence. And ever since, every time that issue makes some kind of an advance where somebody with even greater influence is embracing it, is advocating it. You see this full-on attack. They did it with the Democrats like Rashida Taleb and Leon Omar who kind of smuggled that into the Democratic Party. But then the most vicious one of all was

what happened to Tucker Carlson because he clearly is, if not one of, if not the most, one of the most influential influencers or journalist or pundance, whatever you want to call him, in conservative politics where the Israelis have thought they were locked in safely with the conservative movement forever. Now you have someone as influential as Tucker Carlson aggressively questioning that. Same with Candace Owens. But now what you're seeing is it's elevated even further still to the vice presidency of the United States. Like it doesn't get much higher than that. And the presidency. And so all these people, really the presidency, but they're pretending it's only J.D. Vance because now it's at the center of the Oval Office and the White House. So part of this is just strategic.

Like every time it advances, we have to do something to make clear to people that you're going to pay a huge price if this is something that you embrace. But the other part of it is this denial of reality. So it's like, why would J.D. Vance start questioning the influence of Israel and the problems of having the U.S. to support everything Israel is doing? Is it because Tucker Carlson is some kind of like hypnotic force, Machiavellian force, manipulating him on a puppet string behind J.D. Vance is kind of ironic since they take so much offensive to that. When you say it's the Israelis doing that to American politicians and then they embrace that same theory of. this puppet master. But the reality of what's happening is the reason why all these people who never previously talked this way are now talking this way is because everything that happened in

Gaza and everything since the censorship measures inside the United States, the gobbling of media outlets by Israel loyalists have opened huge numbers of people's eyes toward the reality of the true face of Israel and the U.S. relationship to it. That's true for J.D. Vance. It's true for Tucker Carlson. It's true for Megan Kelly. It's true for the majority of young conservatives under the age of 50 to say nothing of millions of democracy. The world has changed its mind on this issue. And instead of admitting that, instead of grappling with that reality, what they're trying to do is always imply that there's kind of malicious motive, obviously Jew hatred,

anti-Semitism, racism, bigotry being the primary thing they attribute to people. But they're also trying to imply that there must be some weird conspiracy happening in the dark because what else could explain somebody coming to these conclusions when in fact these conclusions, whether they like it or not, are now what a majority of the world understands and thinks about Israel and the U.S. relationship to it. Yeah, I think like a John Podwitz, for example, or Max Abrams, like actually genuinely believes, too, that the heart of J.D. Vance is anti-Semitic, whereas they would, I think in many cases, if J.D. Vance said what Donald Trump said about Miriam Adelson's loyalties, it would be over. Like, it would be a week-long cycle about how he is an out-and-out anti-Semite along the lines of Ilhan Omar's all about the Benjamin's post. It would be exactly like that.

But I genuinely had to explain to two, I think, decent, smart people who were pro-Israel in the last few weeks, that the New York Times reported Marco Rubio's preference was not to get into this war either. And I think that little bit of information honestly didn't penetrate a lot of the pro-Israel circles. It's not just JD. It's not just JD and Trump. This particular war in Iran, as we can see from the deal that's been caught. was not something that most of the administration was really excited about. And there you go.

I mean, this is where it's ending now in June, apparently of 2026, after four months, a deal that people are really unhappy with. And they now say, well, it's a straw man to insist it would have involved ground troops or billions of more dollars or more and more weeks. But the best response I've seen to that is, well, you could do two more weeks of escalated air strikes and just ensure that the missile supply is totally down, keep the pressure up, and make sure that everything is bombed to smithereens, which of course involves the risk of losing more American troops, as we already lost 13, that would involve the serious risk of

escalation. So no wonder everybody's unhappy with this. But not just that. You know, there's a reason why this war with Iran hasn't happened, despite the Israelis wanting it for 30 years, despite a lot of presidents or people in high office in the United States national security system, believing that Iran is this grave threat, we aren't shy about starting wars. We start wars more casually than people change their socks. And if there's a reason why we never did this with Iran, it's because they're a very large and serious and formidable country that understands since 1979 when the U.S. and Great Britain and Israel lost their puppet regime in favor of this Islamic Revolution

that they were going to use their full force to try and dislodge that regime. They've been planning for 45 years on how to prevent that and how to defend themselves. And Iran is filled with extremely smart people. Like the political class is much more educated than the American class. These are people filled with PhDs and all sorts of very high learning. They have a lot of military skill from the wars that they fought, from the region that they understand. And what they have demonstrated, yes, we can go bomb Iran. We can go bomb Iran and we'll have air supremacy and we can bomb what we want.

But they can also inflict immense damage, not just on the Strait of Hormuz by closing it. They can destroy the energy and gas infrastructure of what we call our Persian Gulf allies, which are really the vicious, repressive Arab dictatorships of Saudi Arabia and the Emirates and the Bahrainis and the Qataris in a way that will absolutely cripple the world economy. They did it only to a very small extent. So, yeah, you can go ahead if you want and bomb Iran more. they're going to do is they're going to destroy more and more energy facilities in the Persian Gulf, which they are easily able to do with drones. And what President Trump said that really got weirdly ignored because it's actually an incredibly important factor to consider, but no one

knows how to address it, is that the reason why we saw oil prices elevate, but not so severely, like apocalyptically to $200 a barrel or $300 a barrel, is because we've been draining the world petroleum reserves around the world, but those are running out. And in three to four weeks, he said, and I believe that, I've heard this elsewhere, that those were going to be gone. And if this war wasn't resolved, you were going to see oil prices, not going to $120 a barrel, but to $200 and $300 or worse, and you're going to have then global instability, $8 to $10 a gallon at the gas prices heading into the midterms. It's totally unsustainable.

But these people who are single-mindedly obsessed with Israeli interests want the Iranian government shattered for Israeli interests, and they don't care about anything else, including the world economy. but President Trump has to. Right. We're going to take a quick break. We'll be right back with Glenn Greenwald. All right, everyone, let's talk about what's really in your makeup. Most of us spend so much time worrying about what we eat, what we drink, how we take care of our families.

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We're still here with Glenn Greenwald. The eastgreenwold.com, blogzer prize winning journalist front of the show, of course. And Glenn, I needed to get your reaction to Tim Dillon, formally declaring, quote, MAGA is over. Let's take a listen. Vance knows that MAGA is ending. And I think it ended with that UFC fight. I think that was the last party MAGA was going to throw.

You had motocross, you had UFC fights. That was a fun party. But it's the final. I think it's the final party. Here's the thing. They don't know it yet. In the same way that when Hollywood did that Imagine video, they had no idea that they were on their way to being like,

relevant and hated. They were just doing this video that they thought in their, in their, you know, sunburnt brains was going to help. And it was actually the finale for the idea of celebrity in this country being like something that's respected. We still are obsessed with the idea of celebrity. We actually like to pump them up and then tear them down. Well, and Tim actually got into sort of MAGA corruption as he talks about a lot, and there's a story popping off in Albania right now. I think we have some of this, actually, where people are protesting really hard. It's now the Flamingo protests over the planned development of a bunch of land, where Jared Kushner's affinity partners is an investor in it.

You posted on X. Jared Kushner's corruption and profiteering from U.S. policy directly. shapes has no parallel in its magnitude and brazenness. He and the Trump family are showered with billions in new personal wealth from the exact Persian Gulf dictatorships most affected by their decisions. Now, CBS News has more from Albania. They say thousands of Albanians have taken to the streets of the country's capital to Rana for 21 consecutive days in protest sparked by concerns over Kushner-backed luxury tourism development in an area rich in natural beauty. Anger over the construction plans for the historically protected Pishmoro Narta area on the country's coast have expanded into a wider movement against alleged corruption in the Albanian government and the

country's ruling elite, Kushner President Trump's son-in-laws among a group of investors seeking to build a luxury tourism complex on Albania-Sazan Island and along the country's Adriotic Coastline, early planning documents revealed by CBS News, show the project could involve 800 guest rooms and suites, luxury villas, of course, a casino, a water park, and townhouses and apartments. The reaction, or the article that your post was in reaction to was actually a repost of a New York Times article from not too long ago about how Kushner is still raising funds for affinity as he has negotiating deals in Iran, in Gaza, all over the world, really. Whitkoff has been negotiating with Putin and Zelensky as well.

So I guess I think what Tim Dillon is touching on is that people are starting to get the bread and circuses sense from UFC. And when you juxtapose this like UFC fight with also the family enriching itself from crypto ventures, foreign investments, it does start to look a bit hollow, right? Yes. Well, I think a lot of the commentary about J.D. Vance and about Marco Rubio, as kind of we alluded to earlier, is very much focused on the question of who will be the air to the, what, whether you call it the MAGA movement or the America First movement, I think they're going to try

and get away from MAGA, which Trump himself said is just a cult of personality. That's just whatever I believe, that's what MAGA believes by definition. but the America First Movement, and I think one of the reasons why J.D. Bands, who no one has ever accused of being such a kind of honest and passionate believer in causes that he's willing to sacrifice his own political interest in pursuit of them, one of the things he's obviously doing is looking at the landscape, and he sees that within the Republican Party, skepticism toward Israel, is becoming a very dominant position, or at least a very significant one, especially among younger Republicans whose energy you need in the nomination. And I think one of the reasons he's being so

open about what he's saying about Israel is because he understands that Maga, as it exists, with Trump as this dominant figure, with all this excitement around him, is starting to crumble. And a lot of ways, you know, being on the political stage for 10 years will do that. And I think part of what he's doing is looking at how he can become the inheritor of what comes next, as opposed to Marco Rubio, who's perceived as much more of a traditional establishment Republican. As for Albania, you know, the thing that first prompted my interest in the story, I don't know if you saw this, but Ivanka Trump gave this interview that was maybe the most out of touch Marie Antoinette moment that's ever happened since the 18th century where she was like, I was on a boat and we stumbled into this private island. You know, she made it sound like she was canoeing with her husband and kids and they just found a boat and they hiked when in reality they were on this gigantic mega yacht of one of Jared Kushner's, you know, billionaire friends.

And they met the prime minister of Albania because they had their designs on. this beautiful natural island that is untouched and has been for so long. And she was facing like, I'm on a journey to find the meaning of life. And I've concluded that the most fulfilling human existence is to develop theme parks and waterslides and casinos and high-end luxury resorts on this like beloved Albanian island. But we're going to do it with architects who have such integrity in the land that they're uncompromising. And to their great credit,

that people in Albania look at the things that we're seeing that we kind of just swallow and accept for, a reason that I think are interesting and worth considering, but they're not. They're like, no, we're not allowing gaudy Trump self-interested exploitation of everything beautiful in the world for their, you know, gold, ostentatious aesthetic to exist in our country. We're going to protest and demand the right to protect what is ours and what is beautiful from this kind of incursion. And unfortunately, the same thing is happening in the United States, but to a much greater extent, as you just alluded to, and for the most part, we seem to be relatively content with it, or at least certainly not angry enough to do anything meaningful about it.

Well, I was going to say post-Soviet countries actually recognize oligarchy pretty perceptively because, perceptibly, because they've had a lot of experience with it. And here, I'm thinking, you know, when Trump is no longer president, or actually if Democrats win the House, let alone the Senate in the midterms, subpoenas on this sort of thing are going to be flying. at Epstein, the crypto stuff, the affinity fundraising from the Saudis, from the Emirates, the developments in Dubai, in the UAE that are actually currently happening as these negotiations are happening as well. That stuff, I mean, I wonder if after the midterms, this explodes with the American people. Yeah, so it's interesting. I did this Jubilee program, this surrounded

format last month in Los Angeles, where you know, sit in the middle and you're surrounded by 20 people different views and I was surrounded by 20 Maga adherents and these were like the hardcore deadender types and the thing is like I don't think a lot of people realize with this show they don't actually just get like random people off the street they get like most of these are like tip talk influencers want to be YouTubers you know one of them that was in my debate actually just got hired by the DeliWire because he's like a young black kid who's a fanatical Israel supporter so surprise surprise that DeliWire was like hey he seems good in any event you know these are people very plugged in they come with all their talking points they want to

watch Ben Shapiro and Sean Hannity every day. And when we got to the part of the discussion where I was advancing the claim that the Trump administration is considerably more corrupt than the Biden administration. And obviously, I thought the Biden administration was corrupt. I'd cover the 100 Biden stuff and a lot of other things. And I was focused on all the things we just talked about, you know, the Jared Kushner Fund and the hundreds of billions of dollars in the Saudis, but also World Liberty Financial, which Trump set up four days before the inauguration and inflowed huge amounts of Eparati

money. Trump kids with all their government contracts and Pentagon contracts and Israeli connections. So when we got to the part about the corruption issue and my argument that the Trump administration is considerably more corrupt than the Biden administration, and I raised all these issues that we had just discussed, you know, the huge amounts of billions pouring into Jared Kushner's headstrong from the Saudis and Trump set up the World Liberty Financial four days before the inauguration and he had huge amounts of Amirati money flowing into it, basically building a personal family fortune based on the sovereign wealth funds

at the very country whose decisions in the Middle East they're most affecting, like as close to a legalized bribe as you can get, but on a scale, 100,000 times bigger than whatever 100 Biden did,

the people who were there who were there to defend Trump, it wasn't like they came knowledgeable about these issues but somehow willing to defend them. Almost none of them, despite being helped plugged in politically there, had even heard about them,

had even been aware of them enough to even talk about it. And it made me understand and realize that, although I'm a huge fan of independent media, obviously, have devoted my career in a lot of ways to building it up and defending it. One of the things that has happened is a result of all these different segregated places that you get information from is we're living in multiple realities. You can pretty much go somewhere and only hear what you want to hear. And because they're Trump

supporters, the news they consume doesn't even talk about these stories. And the fact that we no longer have a centralized set of institutions or media outlets that we trust to tell us things that we ought to know. That's the reason why these issues, these scandals, though so much larger than anything in terms of corruption that I can remember in my lifetime, hasn't gotten nearly the attention that they really merit. Yeah, I had the exact same experience while I was watching this around it. It was kind of staggering how, I mean, I don't know. It was even surprising because you would think they would have ready-made responses to some of that. Like, everyone's done it, blah, blah, blah.

But there wasn't even a recognition of that. Great point. Two more things. Oh, by the way, everyone should read the Isaac Saul piece at Retangle, where he goes through, like, it's incredible. It's so detailed. He goes through a lot of these deals that we've seen over the last year and a half. But there are two more things I wanted to get to with you.

Glenn, let's first start with a tour of the country's Pride Month, because last week we covered the San Francisco Giants' debacle. And I was reading Andrew Sullivan's recent post on this when we were covering it about how polling among actually Republicans, independents, even Democrats a little bit, but is going down on the questions of the morality of same-sex relationships and gay marriage. And what's interesting is I'm just to have the control room kind of shuffle through these. It was hard to confirm all of them, but they all involve video and images from lives of TikTok. So bear with me, there's Pride Month in Nebraska. where you can, the first things that, the first thing kids see when walking into Gear Library in Lincoln, Nebraska is books telling them that they can be transgender. There was the Gardner, Kansas Police Department.

They are official vendors for the Gardner LGBTQ Pride event. The event encourages children, according to the lives of TikTok, to bring money to hand tips to adult men dressed as women performing provocative sexual dances. In Colorado, there was a pride display inside of a children's, I think it was a museum in Denver. that was promoting transgenderism to children. In Michigan, in Gross Point, there was the public schools hosting a family-friendly pride event at an elementary school where half-naked drag queens dance provocatively for children while taking cash tips, certainly not the first time

that we've seen any of this, Glenn. But the reason I put this question to you is that there's a lot of conversation about, and this is Sullivan's theory, but the T's are behind the dropping support for the LGBT community. I also think it's the Tees plus, sometimes this focus on children. I don't think any of these cases that we just went through our exceptions.

I think this is very widespread. And I think it shows up in people's immediate communities and gives them material concerns about their public school districts or their public libraries. They don't like it. And I have to imagine that's translating into some of these polls. Yeah. So I agree with that theory that it's like to just be as reductive as possible. The way you put it, the way Andrew puts it.

Like, it's the teas that are causing this. But I don't, by that, I don't mean that it's the crusade for equality for people who are transgender or their dignity that is to blame. I'm very, you know, wary of the fact that, you know, if you're somebody who was or is in a marginalized group, the way that, you know, people who grew up when Andrew did or when I did being gay meant you couldn't marry, you couldn't have any recognition of your relationship rights, you know, all kinds of horrible things in the 80s. someone gets sick and their husband, their partner, their spouse had no legal rights to even be involved in the process. They were excluded by family members who, you know, just terrible things like a complete lack of legal rights. It was real marginalization.

And there's a tendency once you get your rights to then say, okay, let's draw the line here. We don't need any more controversies. And I want to be careful that at least I don't do that and say, oh, who cares about these transgender people? We already want. I don't think it's. I'll just add really quickly, Andrew's point from the polling is also that. Americans, these same polls that are finding declining support, also find that Americans broadly support, significantly support protections for transgender adults. Exactly. Exactly. So this is what I

think is so important is I genuinely believe that Americans are not hateful. I think Americans are very decent. I think we have overwhelmingly this kind of live and let live attitude. We're not interested in being involved in and controlling one another's personal lives or sitting in judgment. I mean, of course, it's like a kind of entertainment that people get, but I'm saying like our overall ethos is not to hate people, people understand that there's a huge diversity of different kinds of people who they respect. And what I would go back to is, you know, in the early gay rights movement that I became involved in like high school, college and law school. The idea very much was there was no sense that, okay, there's this sentiment that, you know, homosexuality is sinful or that it should be criminalized, and therefore we ought to go and demonize the people who think that or criminalize them or censor them because there was no power to do that.

The only way that the movement ever was going to succeed was by engaging in debate and discussion with people and finding a way to make them persuaded and comfortable. And that happened because people started to realize, oh, actually, that teacher that was so formative in my middle school was gay, or that uncle that I beloved, or my younger brother, it turns out they're gay. And now I see this demonization is false. And that's what led to the evaporation of these kind of demonized themes that made people more open to it. It was just sheer persuasion.

And one of the ways that happened was by assuaging people's most primal fears. So for so long, they were told, oh, gay people are coming for your children, and their child molesters. And by only, you know, the game movement was always very careful to avoid any suggestion that it was focused on anything other than how adults live their lives.

Because as a father, I know now, and I think everybody understands, people are extremely protective of their children. Like, if my kids go to school and come back, especially when they were younger, and I feel like they were propagandized by a teacher, you know, putting political or social ideas in their head that were kind of, you know,

I get very kind of defensive and angry about it. If it's sexual in nature or, you're trying to circumvent parental authority. That is going to enrage people in ways that, you know, I don't think can be understated. And here, the trans movement and the gay movement in a lot of ways has deliberately done that. And what I want to, what I want to mean up by that is the following. And it's not just in the gay movement that you see. This is a important dynamic that I think is very underrecognized.

When you have a political movement built on social justice and emerging from that are all these very well-financed institutions. It becomes like a professional, it becomes like a profession, like an industry, you know, anti-racism groups, swimming in tens of billions of dollars, feminist groups, but also gay groups. These gay groups are extremely well-funded, gay people have a lot of discretionary income. You know, you have the HRC and glad. So what the North Star of the gay and lesbian movement was always the legalization of same-sex marriage, which for so long people thought was like unattainable, impossible. But it was always like, okay, if we ever get to that point, that really is fully. equality. 2015 happens, Obergefeld, the Supreme Court says you have to honor same-sex marriage. Okay, we won. Full-scale equality. Time to close up shop. No more need for these, you know,

movements because now we won. They don't want to close up shop. They have huge buildings. They have, you know, endowments. They have very high-paying NGO salaries. It's their identity. It's their career. And so what happened after 2015 was they started searching for ways to create more social resistance to justify their existence. Trans adults were not sufficient. People are fine with trans people. They always have been. Like if the person down the street is born a man and wants to live life as a woman, very few people are actually going to care or be bothered by it. So what they started to do was look for ways that kind of made people the most upset on purpose, which is like the opposite of real activism where you want to win. We're going to put human beings with penises

inside women's prison by having them identify as women. And also we're going to put, you know, teenage boys to compete in football and other contact sports with your teenage daughters. And we're going to incessantly talk about your trans kids, your trans children who can become trans at the age of five and seven. And so it was like purposely done to provoke anger and resistance to justify their existence. And by doing that, and then by linking it to the broader gay and lesbian movement that had already won, it created a lot of backlash and resentment, especially because it was combined

with a lot of heavy-handed tactics of censorship and forced and obligatory speech, which people hate more than anything. And that resentment that they purposely cultivated is now undermining and reversing a lot of the advances that so many people for so long worked so hard to have won, and it really disgust me. The point about the power dynamic, I think, is really, I just want to emphasize that. I think that is really important to the Americans who have the liver let live ethos, a lot of whom are Democrats or independents, it does start to look like the bullies have switched sides, like the people who are who they saw as the bullies are now the bullied, and that's powerful for a lot of Americans. Before you run, I did want to get your take on the World Cup

Discourse, Glenn, the North American World Cup discourse. There are Europeans crossing America, sometimes I think these things are fake, but going to every Taco Bell and Buckeys and Waffle House that they seem capable of entering. And there have been some interesting reactions. One, it is now being juxtaposed, I think, with as we approach the Fourth of July in the United States, elite media downplaying celebrations of the Fourth of July very intentionally. Let's listen to one person from the UK. I don't think this even had anything to do with the World Cup,

but it is reminiscent of many of the reactions to people who have been here during the World Cup. One person from the UK looking at American houses and the prices. Does anybody in the USA want to adopt me as soon as possible? Because look at the price of an American house versus a British house. This is an average house in England. 400,000, three bedrooms semi-detached. Look at it. It's nothing special.

Then you have a look at the American houses for the same size. This is pretty much the exact same price. Look at it. Detached, four bedrooms. And look at the size of that. If that house was in the UK, it would be worth millions. So what are we doing in the UK? What are we doing?

You can barely get a house here. You have to live in a cardboard box for your first house. Now, two more things. Seattle Times has a big profile of some World Cup fans, one of whom's name is Lefkowitz. They write, it's hard for Lefkowitz to imagine enthusiastically cheering against their opponents because he thinks Trump is tarnishing what it means to be American on the global stage. It's not how I expected to feel about the World Cup.

He said a few weeks before the tournament. I still want the U.S. team to win, but everything that goes with that, I'm conflicted. Now, Matt Taibi did a little bit of a roundup of some of the media coverage. He wrote, in the run-up to a 250th birthday to be held with Donald Trump in the White House, anti-American chic is everywhere. He was comparing this to Tom Wolfe's radical chic. He says, as if the same history that was cheered for preceding Obama must be knocked for also preceding Trump. A Unitarian Church in Nantucket is canceling its Fourth of July celebration of

protest of a recent Supreme Court decision. The Seattle Times is writing about locals, having mixed feelings about cheering team USA with Trump in office. And USA today denounced our quote unquote hateful and greedy nation. It's all keeping with the rhetorical own goal known as Trump wraps himself in the flag slash Trump supporters view themselves as patriots slash therefore America sucks. But Glenn, you famously hate America and moved away. So I wanted to ask you specifically, is this all elite media nonsense? I thought terrorist attacks against the United States. That's how much I hated. I didn't just move away. You know, I think there's a lot going on here that is so interesting.

Like, first of all, you just have that, you know, complex that all human beings have that the grass is always greener on the other side. Like, haven't you had that experience where you go visit a country for the first time and you're just blown away by everything that's different and immediately think it's so much better and start admiring it so much? I think there's some of that, right? Like, you live in London. You live in Berlin. Suddenly you're in, you know, suburban Texas. And things are so different that, you know, you know, you're in. you see the parts that you immediately would love but overlooked because you're on vacation as well

where things are always fun you don't have stress everything's positive and optimistic i think part of it is that i think they're part of it that i think is a little bit that that serves me a little bit which i think americans especially the ones who yell the loudest about our cultural superiority actually have a kind of inferiority complex you know we i mean the reality is it's that europe's culture European culture and Chinese culture and Russian culture are a lot older than ours, have a lot more along the, you know, way, cultural achievements and a lot of fields. We also have a lot of achievements that other countries don't have but culturally I think we've always felt

kind of looked down upon like oh they have the Eiffel Tower and Notre Dame and we have the Waffle House and you know whatever and so to see some foreigners coming and saying oh my God I love the Waffle House look how amazing Costco is they have all these different flavors it kind of plays this American insecurity that like oh yeah see see we do have a great culture

even the people who are coming from Europe are admiring what it is that we're saying and like ultimately at the end of the day These are, it's all very anecdotal. But like, like, I think part of what I kind of like about the World Cup, and I think this is really at the heart of it, is it stimulates a kind of nationalism in its most benign and almost even, like, noble form. You know, it's like you root for your team, you root for your country, which really is irrational. Like, why would you care if the U.S. soccer team wins or loses or any, any, it makes no difference in your life. But it's kind of like a sense of, you know, national.

community that has no real harm to it. It's not malicious, but it's like a sense of unity, which especially these days is so lacking. And I think people crave that. And that's why the World Cup and things like at the Olympics, whatever, have become things that resonate so much with people because you get to unify around your country, around the place that has most influenced you, but in a way that doesn't feel ugly. And I think that's what's so off key about people saying, oh, I'm embarrassed to be American because I have Trump. Like everybody hates their government, everybody hates their political leaders one time or another, but it's still your country, it's still the place where you belong, it's still where your family and community and

everything important in your life. And there's nothing wrong with simultaneously disliking your president or even hating him, but still feeling pride in the place that kind of created you. And I think like at its best, that's what these kind of events do. National Socialist Glenn Greenwald. No, okay. Yeah, it's easy to forget the American Standard. of living, by the way, as it compares to the rest of the world. Part of this because of the empire, so that's a separate conversation, but it is sort of amusing to be reminded of the standard of living in the United States compared to some other, like, honestly, Western countries that Americans often do think of as, like, luxurious, wonderful,

charming places, and they are. It's just a very different lifestyle than the American one where you have detached garages and guns, and you can say whatever the hell you want, for now, at least, without the police knocking on your door. Right. I mean, but like, there's a very different. always two sides to everything. Like nothing is free in life, right? Like, so you live in a suburb, you have gigantic amounts of like flavored Doritos of every single time you can imagine by going to Costco and you don't have to take public transportation or walk because everything is done with cars. And there's kind of a freedom of that of like consumerism. But at the same time, we have like

an obesity problem because nobody walks anywhere and people go and consume enormous amounts of shit food that clogs their arteries. And, you know, so every culture, has kind of something to offer and something to take away. Like, I think the only universal law of the world is balance, and, you know, every positive thing has a cost and vice versa. And I think that, that too, is a lot of what you're seeing. Like, you can look at American culture and say, oh, it's so lowbrow and it's this and that.

But obviously, people who come here kind of look at it with envy because it offers things that even if they want sometimes and not always, they just don't have. Well, maybe I can up your patriotic. sentiments by playing a couple of clips or just showing you a couple of clips from the beautiful opening of the Obama library, a moving and patriotic occasion, of course, in Chicago where the Obamas, the Bushes and the Clintons, the warriors for the American people were able to congregate and celebrate together. Let's take a look at a video that was posted from this stirring celebration

of President Obama, hosted by President Obama. I got something for you here. All right. Before we, our mint exchange. Thank you. Thank you. That's a pretty color on you. Thank you.

I just saw that new portrait of you and Barack with the collage. Yeah, the artist, Indi Jekka Crosby. It looks in LA. Where did you grow up? I grew up South Shore, so south of here, maybe about 10 blocks. 10 blocks from here. And I love this. This looks so great. Yeah. Yeah. Is that University of Chicago? That's the University of Chicago right there. Milly and Sasha were born at the University of Chicago. Oh, they were. They were. They were. They were. A lot of good stuff happened here in your life.

So have you played that little golf course over there. That's where I love. So cute. Two, one. Everybody right at me. Three, two, one. Thank you. Excellent. And Glenn has no chill. So in response to Michelle Obama, describing that as a joy, saying she got to spend time with Joe and Jill, George and Laura, and Bill and Hillary. Barack and I will always be grateful for your constant friendship and support of our family over the years. Glenn, you got mad, and you said the widespread liberal rehabilitation and embrace of George W. Bush, and then their whole circle makes a complete mockery out of everything

they pretend to believe. Everything they say about Trump now is what they said about Bush and Cheney. Then, hard to argue with that. But did you see Hillary Clinton's outfit? It was like, the spring, like it was for March. She was in like a raincoat and a rain hat and it was a sunny day in Chicago. Just, you know, there were so many charming touches from our oligarchs that I don't understand why you weren't feeling the warmth. You know what? I could probably like do your show for two hours just by talking interrupted about that horrific clip to which you just objected me, which seemed like it went on for a very long time. But I will say like the only point I will make is that, don't you find it kind of shocking

the way it's now completely normalized that American presidents, when they get out of office, when the whole idea was to avoid like an imperial presidency, construct these gigantic monstrosities, these like tributes to themselves that would make a Roman emperor blush. Like, I understand the idea of having a presidential library

as like a historical archive. Like you put it, you know, on some, like, part of some floor of some university or research. University of Delaware, like Biden, because he can't raise any freaking money. Right. Well, that's the other thing.

It's like these things get godier and godier and just like more self-of-fate promoting by the moment. And they're done because these presidents serve, you know, the richest interests in our country with their policies. And in return, they get drowned with all kinds of, you know, millions of dollars to build these monuments to themselves. Like, why do we have every president in every city now with a, I mean, do you see that Obama thing?

It's like this gigantic. I've seen it in person. It's disgusting. Yeah, it is atrocious, but it's also gigantic. And it's like, you know, the Roman emperors would, like, build a bust. And, like, I guess some of the crazier ones would, you know, take up more space with, like, some more grant, but not a gigantic skyscraper. And yet that's happening now. And then they host it and they host themselves. And then they are like, welcome to the, to the tribute to myself and my own greatness. It's so antithetical to what the ethers of our. country is supposed to be, that it's bizarre that it's now just totally normalized. It was funny to see them looking with pride over the University of Chicago campus and discussing their ties to the University of Chicago because there's beautiful Gothic architecture over at the University of Chicago that was funded by John D. Rockefeller, which is a fascinating Gilded Age 1.0 versus 2.0 comparison, where then it was sort of shameful. Like, Andrew Carnegie

was eventually shamed for some of his deep anti-labor activism as a, you know, enormously wealthy person and started, you know, doing these, giving tons of money away. But that's not to rehabilitate Andrew Carnegie. It's just to say that we do have a sort of different ethic right now for the ultra wealthy and powerful, where at least then they wanted to be seen as people who were genuinely creating beauty and value. And Obama built this, like, monstrosity that towers over. He built Mordwar towering over the south side of Chicago. It is so garish. It is so ugly. And it seems like it's intentionally garrish and ugly, but it has like a basketball court in it and was funded by super rich people. Like it should be shameful, but instead they're really proud of it.

And I doubt the next presidential library to which we're going to be treated, which is the one from Donald Trump. It's saying unlikely that that's going to be more subtle and more humble. I think it's going to take garrishness to not necessarily a new level, but a quite different form of expression. But they will be mad about that. But the Obamas will be mad about the Obama. in the Bushes and the Clintons will have all kinds of unkind words to say about the Trump library. But what he does is just force their bad ethics to their logical extreme and make them confront themselves in a mirror. And it's on a different scale, of course. But I've always thought that was the

main function of Trump is although, this is always my biggest breach with the left from the time Trump got here was the idea that he was some sort of radical aberration or unprecedented departure from the American tradition when to me he was nothing more than just a much more blunt and honest expression of what had come before him in a way that they used to disguise and predify but that he doesn't bother

which I actually find kind of more not necessarily refreshing but more productive because it opens people's eyes to the reality of our political system but that's why the Bushes and the Obama's and the Clintons find him so contemptible not because he's different than them

but because he's more honest about what they are I think that's totally right. Glenn Greenwald, greenwold. Greenwald.substack.com. Thank you for being so generous with your time today. Always great to see Emily. Thanks for having me. I think we all remember those days in our early 20s where we could survive on four hours of sleep and caffeine. It just doesn't work anymore. We all know it. Now, if I personally don't get quality rest, I'm dragging for days, maybe even all week. But I don't want a sleep aid that leaves me feeling like knocked out or really groggy. I just want real restorative sleep. That's where Beam Dream comes in. Dream is made with a powerful blend of all natural ingredients.

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again, what is, I think it was a 10-episode show. Not great, not great. A little bit of an indictment on the way that I spend my time between Saturday and Sunday. But it was a fascinating show that I don't think is getting enough attention for the cultural commentary that, from my perspective, at least, is very, very intentionally advancing. Now, Stephen King, This show is considered to be in the Stephen King vein. The director himself has talked about how it is an intentional sort of homage to Stephen King. King posted just a few days ago, Widows Bay is good. Maximum pleasure guaranteed is even better.

It's like Hitchcock came back to do it one more time and Tachiana Maslani is so good. The play of emotions interface is incredible. She goes from comic to terror in an instant. So basically just putting that there to say Stephen King gave Widows Bay his endorsement. And it is intentionally an homage that has some homage to draw. and other important cultural touchstones around the way as well. I saw this interesting post from Jack Posobic on Monday, who said, yes, everyone was right.

Widows Bay is phenomenal. Lovecraftian New England horror is back with a dash of office humor at that. Matt Walsh was one of the first people I saw to pick up on the show. This was probably a month ago. He posted a really positive review of Widows Bay. And I took what Jack said and just wanted to, push it a bit further because if you've been plugged into this big Christian discourse right now on the re-enchantment of the world, which is kind of itself pulling nut, kind of, it is totally

pulling from Max Weber and other thinkers in the 19th and 20th century who were responding to rapid mass industrialization. It goes actually in some ways to Marx, who talked about everything, what's the quote from Marx? Everything holy is profane. Some of this is pulling at threads of like deep anti-industrialism on the left, but also the way the right has kind of reacted recently to what seems to be a Christian revival, at least in some quarters. New York, for example, some Catholic masses are thriving, some Latin masses are thriving. Overall, it looks like Catholicism still on a decline in the United States. Evangelical churches are gaining some young folks as well. You'll remember that mass revival that happened at Asbury in Kentucky just a couple of years ago, too. But I would actually say, and I put this up in response to Jack, this is a surprisingly reactionarying show, and not, I don't mean that in a pejorative sense at all. It's dealing specifically with Puritans. So the show, if you haven't seen it,

if you don't want spoilers, I'm not going to spoil anything significant, certainly not endings or anything like that. But if you don't want to be initiated at all, into the plot, then you might want to tune out. But it deals specifically with this sleepy island. Think of it, I don't think they ever specify, but like being off the coast of Maine or New Hampshire or Massachusetts, the Red Sox are invoked. So maybe it's off the coast of Massachusetts. It's constantly comparing itself to Martha's Vineyard. And it's dealing specifically with the heritage of the Puritans. And it then deals very specifically with the sense that a supernatural curse has been put on this island, which is.

made it impossible for the island to thrive going back to puritanical crimes. Now, puritanical times, colonial times. And what seems is that it seems in the show that the curse is kind of dormant in some ways, although still existing in others, but then reasserts itself as the plot picks up. You have this technocratic, Matthew Reese, by the way, from the Americans, who's married to Carrie Russell, or still with Carrie Russell. I don't know if they're technically married. But anyway, Matthew Reese is fantastic in the show. He's a great comedic actor. And I think that's surprising to some people, but I feel like he was actually, you could see some of that in the Americans and some of his other work as well. But he's this kind of technocratic mayor who's connected to the island, but he's not a native.

He has a son. He's a widower. And he's trying to turn the island basically into Martha's Vineyard. He's trying to make it a tourist destination. He's trying to attract tourists to the island. And fascinatingly, he starts to pick up a little bit of traction. that's where the curse starts to reassert itself. And you learn along the way the origins of the curse, which again, it's going back to Puritanical times.

And it's interesting because Max Weber, in his famous essay where he talks about the, I think it's like the demagicking, if you translate it. I think I saw Rod Dreher, who I'll talk more about in just one moment, talking about the German and English translation once. This is the quote from Weber's essay from, I think this was 1905. has been cited on the almost sterilization of Western culture, thanks to industrial, large-scale capitalism.

Weber wrote, that great historic process and the development of religions, the elimination of magic from the world, which had begun with the old Hebrew prophets, and in conjunction with Hellenistic scientific thought, had repudiated all magical means to salvation as superstition and sin, came here to its logical conclusion. the genuine Puritan even rejected all signs of religious ceremony at the grave

and buried his nearest and dearest without song or ritual in order that no superstition, no trust in the effects of magical and sacramental forces on salvation should creep in. And again, the story is dealing specifically with a curse dating back to the Puritan era that was really attempted to be squashed out by the Puritans themselves, as Weber really sees this being. a time where the demagicking, the disenchantment of the world, as most people refer to it now, is starting to take really, or manifest in a really obvious way in the West. And now Rod Dreher wrote Living in Wonder, which is a really wonderful book on this topic. I can't recommend it enough.

But he wrote that, man, a year ago, I think it came out, maybe a little bit more than a year ago. And it's basically all about this disenchantment discourse. Why is it that there seems to be a revival on the one hand of paganism, the occult, right? You see the Etsy witches and you see interest in tarot cards, serious interest in tarot cards, and astrology and psychics seeming to increase at the same time as some young people seem to be increasingly interested in traditional lowercase O Orthodox religion, some cases actually uppercase O Orthodox religion. Rod himself is Orthodox and has written a good deal about this. But in Living and Wonder, he tells the story of someone named Jonah, who he says is a, quote, trained scholar of religion, who, quote, and I'm going to read some long quotes from Rod here, bear with me, because I think this is very interesting in light of Widows Bay.

He says, Jonah cautions me to be careful with the concept of reenchantment. People are religious by nature, he says. What modern disenchantment has done is convince people that Christianity is false and empty, which has opened the door for the popularity of psychedelics, UFOs, tarot cards, and all manner of occultism. It's no longer fringe enthusiasm. For example, the University of Exeter announced in 2023 that it would offer a postgraduate degree program in occult studies. It's not so much that the modern world has become disenchanted

as that it has become de-Christianized. That emerging, the emerging forms of post-Christian religion, Jonah says, will provide plenty of opportunities for ecstatic spiritual experience with none of the ascetic discipline, epistemic rigor, and doctrinal depth of the true faith. Jonah doesn't fault people for wanting a deeper experience of God, as he did as a bored young evangelical,

but he strongly warns, against seeking enchantment for its own sake. If you summon the devil and his servants and ask them to dazzle you, they will come. Now, I think I asked Rod when this book came out, I interviewed him back at Unheard on undercurrents about some of his Protestant versus Catholic and Orthodox theories which I may disagree with over the course of the book.

But it's an interesting point that he's making here with Jonah. He says at the university where Jonah began his doctoral program, he fell in an occultist community and began to participate in rituals, often incorporating psychedelics. Eventually, he began to have visions. and communicate with demons. On a number of occasions, they entered his body, sometimes against his will. For a couple of years, Jonah thought he was being initiated into special knowledge, into noses,

with a group of elect who had been chosen by the gods as their acolytes to enlighten humanity. Those early experiences of visions were genuinely beautiful and truly meaningful. If they had not been, Jonah would not have been seduced into slavery. Behind this idea of morally neutral psychedelic enchantment was the most satanic evil possible, Jonah now says. the final part. I have no excuse for it, but I have to say that I have been primed, had been primed by these ideologies over the years to explain away all this to my family and friends as it's just nature, it's beauty. Why is that significant in light of Widows Bay? Well, you see again, this technocratic mayor who doesn't want to believe that some silly Puritan-era curse on the island

could actually be real, right? Gentle spoilers ahead. He's daring. He's daring. to stay in haunted locations, and he kind of gladly does it and ends up with particular experiences. And actually, even psychedelic, this is a bit more of a spoiler, but psychedelic mushrooms come into the picture at one point. And interestingly, all of this is so on the nose. If you have been following the enchantment discourse in especially Christian circles, but also in circles that have dealt with the legacy of the new atheists. So people like Alex O'Connor, cosmic skeptic on YouTube who have waited into these debates have been hearing about all of this. And so it's hard for me to believe that Widows Bay is not intentionally situating itself in the

context of this big conversation. And it's a really interesting conversation. If you're hyper online, you may remember that some of like, I think it was a lot of people who watch breaking points were horrified when I did a segment after Charlie Kirk's assassination about the Jezebel Etsy Witch article on. how people should not be messing around with this idea that you're going to pay some etsy witch to put a hex on Charlie Kirk and I was saying very clearly I have no idea whether it had anything to do with it just that these supernatural spiritual forces are real and that was treated by a lot of people who are hyper secular and understandably so by the

way because we do live in a very sterilized world where ancient supernatural ideas this is also big part of the UFO discourse, ancient supernatural ideas have been sort of looked at as outmoded and totally out of step with where modern technology has put us. That right, we've kind of learned better than supernaturalism. That supernaturalism is very much this magical conversation of the past. And as we progress, I'm using that word very intentionally, as we progressed technologically, which can sometimes be regression, very obviously, we are seduced into the idea that the material world is all that actually exists

because progress means more and more explanations. That is to say, everything that seems weird or supernatural will eventually be explained by science because people believe in so many cases that has been true. And by the way, it has been true in certain cases over and over again. We don't treat illnesses the same way

that we used to, and it would be foolish to suggest otherwise. But I think it would also be sort of foolish to dismiss the supernatural concerns that people have had going back to ancient times, pre-religious times, but then of course religious times as well, or pre-Serve Judeo-Christian times, but then post-Judeo-Christian times as all completely ridiculous and foolish. Actually, some great scientists throughout history have had ideas that are mocked now by hyper-secular people and often premiere unbelievable with just from Briley has done a really good job of this, interviewing people who are very high-level

scientists who ultimately have determined that there has to be more than the material world, and they look to Christianity, look up some of those issues, those episodes if you're interested in this issue. But anyway, all of this is to say, it's the fascinating, Widows Bay is this fascinating story of somebody who's fundamentally grappling with coming to terms, or let's just say, it's a fascinating story of a technocrat who is very interested in material gains. coming to terms with the evil that can be invited into the world and that can affect the material world in ways that moderns are not accustomed to. And I'm surprised that the show hasn't gotten more commentary as a sort of entry into this genre. But it really is. It kind of forces

us to juxtapose the supernatural and the ancient with the hypermodern and our desire for material progress and material gain. So it's a really, really interesting show. I can't recommend it enough. I will say it wasn't super satisfied where it leaves off in season one, but again, it has been renewed. So we'll see what happens. But even, I mean, so on the nose that there are psychedelic mushrooms involved in this, because as Jonah told Rod, that can be a sort of entry. Now, a lot of people and a lot of my friends, by the way, who are deep into this issue of legalization and therapeutics of psychedelic therapeutics would disagree with this, or maybe they would agree with it in limited terms, but that can be kind of an entry point for supernatural forces.

But I think the reality is there's some darkness in this world that can't be explained by anti-supernatural material explanations. There will ultimately never be satisfied. Devil's Best Trick by Randallivan, I have behind me on the shelf. That's an excellent book if you're also curious about this. There are many cultures around the world. And even some, by the way, that are are not weird in the acronym sense. Western educated individualists. I forget what the Diaz and the weird. But that are like Mexico is a good example.

There are places that are fairly modern in Mexico where people still see the world through this lens. And there are places around the world, of course, where people still see the world through this lens. And it's not nearly as controversial, but for the modern American or the modern westerner in general, it's hard to come to terms with some of this anti-material, some of the antimaterial forces or the non-material forces

as we encounter them, inevitably as human beings. And I think what we're going to look back on is like the last 100 years as ultimately an aberration, where we decided we could explain everything with science. And ultimately, much of the public goes back, either this is going to happen and there are going to be two forces, I think, that rise simultaneously. neopaganism and neotrationalism or this religious revival, and I think we're already seeing that happen. And that's going to be a more, I think, interesting place than the anti-material, at least a more honest place than the anti-material versus material or the pro-supernatural versus anti-supernatural camps that people have sorted themselves into over the last 100 years, as some of this technology has.

has increased exponentially at a hyper-novel rate, as Brett Weinstein and Heather Hying would say, in ways that have left us reeling. Understandably so, and very uncomfortable with supernatural explanations because there's just such a sterile, antiseptic world that we spend every day of our lives in. And we have so many more cures for disease, we have so much access to better medical care and so many material comforts that, you know, for some good reasons, we will look less to certain supernatural forces and the like. But I think, you know, increasingly there are people who have a non-ideological agreement that it's sort of foolish to dismiss the reality of supernatural forces. You can say that that's crazy. And I welcome the mockery. I welcome it. By all means,

bring it on. But I think this is where we're going. And I think Widows Bay is a really, really, really, really interesting window into or illustration of how many people come to, it's of course hyperbolic, but a really interesting illustration of how people come to encounter this reality all around us in a time where the world has felt sterilized and like it's progressing towards a purely material world. This is one of the big divides between the tech right and the new right, or divides in the new right between the tech right and, the traditionalists, which is that the tech rate tends to be effective accelerationists, E. Ackers, who generally believe that we can have an emerging of man a machine and that we can be

eternal. We can put our brains into AI, live forever, why not? Why shouldn't we? It's kind of our responsibility to follow technology where it goes. And people who say, whoa, transhumanism is anti-humanism. So so much interesting stuff to come. And I just felt like Widows Bate had to have been an intentional commentary on all of this, given some of the specifics that it grappled with. So that's going to do it for us tonight on our edition of After Party. As always, Emily at Double Makecare Media.com is where you can email me. By the way, this week I discovered some emails in my junk mail folder from a long time ago. So if you emailed me recently and I didn't respond, expect maybe listen to Happy Hour this Friday because I'm the beginning.

going through those as well. Thank you so much for tuning in, everyone. Please remember to subscribe. If you haven't yet, we'll see you with a happy hour on Friday and then back here on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts on Monday.