Algorithms + Data Structures = Programs - Episode 155: Don't Hurt Yourself (with C++) with Jonathan O'Connor

Episode Date: November 10, 2023

In this episode, Conor and Bryce conclude their conversation with Jonathan O’Connor and chat about a plethora of topics: multiparadigm languages, Ratfor, airport lounges, Meeting C++, code::dive and more.Link to Episode 155 on WebsiteDiscuss this episode, leave a comment, or ask a question (on GitHub)TwitterADSP: The PodcastConor HoekstraBryce Adelstein LelbachAbout the Guest:Jonathan O’Connor in 1988 joined Glockenspiel, a small Irish company. C++ had no virtual destructors, but it did have a coroutine library! I spent 2 years teaching C++ and OOP. In 2000, he switched over to Java. But by 2010, he started 7 wonderful years writing in Ruby. In 2016, he returned to a completely different C++, where one never had to see a pointer if you didn’t want to. These days he is helping to make the world a better place writing C++ code for LADE GmbH, a company building electric car charging infrastructure.Show NotesDate Recorded: 2023-10-18Date Released: 2023-11-10Jonathan O’Connor Meeting C++ BioRatforSoftware Tools by Brian Kernighan and P.J. PlaugerADSP Bingo BoardMeeting C++ Conferencecode::dive ConferenceIntro Song InfoMiss You by Sarah Jansen https://soundcloud.com/sarahjansenmusicCreative Commons — Attribution 3.0 Unported — CC BY 3.0Free Download / Stream: http://bit.ly/l-miss-youMusic promoted by Audio Library https://youtu.be/iYYxnasvfx8

I believe I was an employee of Adobe for about two days at the same time as Sean Parent was an employee. Oh, cool. Yes, because I joined a small company in the middle of the 90s, whose name escapes me. And they were a subsidiary of Aldus who made Pagemaker. And their CEO had spent a year climbing mountains in South America. And that's when they did a deal

to join with Adobe. But it was more a takeover than a joint merger. Welcome to ADSP, the podcast, episode 154, airport lounges, meeting C++, CodeDive, and more. It's interesting, though, because when you were mentioning C++ being a multi-paradigm programming language, that got me thinking about, you know, I do think it's like a fundamental thing to C++'s nature. And it's sort of hard to put our finger on exactly why, what is fundamental about it. But I think that insofar as multi-paradigm languages go, I think that C++ is almost without a rival. Like there are other languages that do other things a lot better than C++,

but C++ has ability to let you do what you want and combine different paradigms, different styles is sort of unmatched. And in fact, I think some could even make the argument that it is really the only multi-paradigm language. No, I mean,

multi-paradigm to the extent that c++ is but like i could list off to you like 20 different ones that support two paradigms really well like scala is a great example it's functional but also object oriented but like the the unique thing about c++ is like the multi and multi-paradigm the n is much greater than two you know know, is it six? Is it seven? Is it 10? You know, who knows? I think that one of the key things that about C++ that makes it successful is that C++ lets you almost seamlessly combine very low level and very high level code that you can do things that are very close to the metal. And maybe you're not doing them directly, but you might be using something that somebody else wrote, some library that somebody else wrote that's very close to the metal. This sort of gets to C++'s performance mission. And that you can take

those things that are like very low level pointers, you know, hardware things, all the nastiness and unpleasantness that we have in the world of systems programming. And you can wrap them up in abstractions, and then you can deal with those abstractions at a very high level. You know, and it's like, think about some of the code that I was writing today for this algorithm I've been working on. And it's just that mix of, you know, I have some places where I'm, you know, hacking on pointers. I'm casting stuff around. I'm, you know, there's undefined behavior, there's all sorts of unpleasantness. But then that's boxed up and encapsulated and then I can use it in a very

functional way. And I can use it with some very high level algorithms and I can use it with generic programming and I can use it with some object-oriented abstractions. And that's really what makes C++ successful and sort of unique, is its ability for you to do the low-level stuff, to do the systems programming stuff, and also use higher-level concepts and ideas and paradigms. And also to be able to not just do, you can take a bunch of different libraries or a bunch of different APIs,

a bunch of different system interfaces, all of which may have a different style, may exist at different levels of the abstraction. And you can work with all those at the same time in the same program. Like when I was writing code today, I was using Cub and Cuda, which are very low-level things. And at the same time, I was also using the C++ standard library and Thrust, which are very high-level things.

And it was very seamless for me to interoperate between those two. And it was seamless for me to, in the places where I needed to, to drop down to a very low layer in the stack in the places where I was like, I really don't like care that much to just be like, all right, I'm just going to like use like a stood vector here. Like, that's fine. Like, I don't need,

I don't care about the specifics of how this memory is allocated. Like, I don't need to be programming c style here i just need like i need this part of the code to work and run and i can just like create a stood vector and use it right here alongside all this other you know low-level garbage that i'm doing while you were talking there about doing that and switching around, I thought of why C succeeded ahead of Pascal. I had thought of another reason,

and this will please you, Bryce. C has the preprocessor, Pascal did not. And so with C, you could, with the preprocessor you can generate, like if macros, you could, with the preprocessor, you can generate, like, if macros, you can generate code. Similarly, templates did that for us in C++, which meant that we didn't need reflection as much for a long time. And Pascal didn't have that ability. Yeah. And especially when you're doing systems programming, the preprocessor,

the C preprocessor is such a powerful and useful tool. When you're dealing with different platforms, different compilers, different implementations, like, yes, I know it has lots of problems, and I know it has lots of foot guns, but especially if you look

at the era where C came out and the early days of C and C++, the preprocessor is an incredibly innovative and powerful tool. And the fact that it had limited guardrails meant that you could do almost anything with it, which was both a pro and a con. There's another language that was around, which was based on Fortran called RAT4. I think it stood for Rational Fortran. And that was basically Fortran plus the preprocessor. And the preprocessor would run through, you'd have a certain set of standard constructs and macros,

and they would just produce Fortran code underneath. And that was, I think it was either Kernighan or Ritchie wrote a book with all the examples in RAT4. Interesting. We will find a link and put it in the show notes for and and you can't you can it is interesting that that there is today um a lot of people do use fortran with the c pre-processor um ah okay so that is that is a thing that is it yeah that it it is a thing right right for isn't it? It is a thing. Right, right. For better and for worse.

Or maybe it's... I know that it's... I don't know if there's a bespoke preprocessor for Fortran. If it is, it's very much based on the C preprocessor, but I think that it's... My recollection is that it's just the cp processor for fortran code i think like if you do like dot fpp files with like g fortran i

think it'll run the cp processor first i was gonna say we're we're like half an hour we appreciate jonathan i realize you're on Dublin time, too, so this is a lot later in the evening for you than it is for us. So thank you for spending so much time with us. This has been – Yeah, it's like 9 p.m. there, yeah. Yeah. I know that because I just got an awesome new watch

that shows me all the time zones. You know what? We'll leave that one in. That wasn't long enough to speed up, so we'll leave that one in. Don't worry. Don't worry. There will be a lot of talk about the watch in future episodes. While we were talking about the success and, you know, the multi-paradigmeness of C++ and

why it's so great, I will first ask a question, Bryce. You have given your endorsement to Beautiful C++. However, I know you haven't read the book, but to the book but i've been very clear that i've not read the book but to what extent did what what amount of uh what is the word perusing or skimming did you do before you gave your endorsement what i said in the past is that it is the style of book the organization of the book is this is the type that I would find useful. I'm not generally a huge fan of programming books. And the reason is that most of them are like a journey. Like, you need to start at the beginning of the journey and then you need to like end at the end.

They're like a linear story to some degree. and the type of book that i would find useful is um because i'm a very hands-on sort of person um and i like to sort of like get knowledge sort of like on the fly as i need it and so something that's more like a reference manual or like a collection of independent lessons or a collection of independent guidelines um is something that's closer to to being, you know, the material that would be useful for me. Something like effective C++, which is like a series of like concrete recommendations or beautiful C++, which is a series of complete recommendations. Those I find more useful because if I'm, you know, wondering about like, oh, what's the best practice for X? I'm more likely to be able to use++. If it's like a traditionally laid out C++ book, maybe there's a chapter on classes,

and maybe the answer would be there. But something like effective C++ or beautiful C++, there's probably like a concrete line item about like constructor explicitness that I can just go look up. I'm not going to – in this one, like I'm just not going to read an entire book. All right. I might be interested enough to go and – We got to cut you off. It's taking too long.

This is a long-winded answer. Yeah. You didn't actually answer my question. I've been very clear. I didn't read the book. I know. I said it was the type of book that I could find useful. Yeah, you gave it your endorsement.

I did give him my endorsement. I skimmed through things. It looked good. So here we go. That was the answer I'm looking for. Did you actually read, like, did you read the table of contents? You skimmed it? Like, did you read a full chapter like i've read i've read a couple of the

um okay uh of the like concrete uh like rules um so i have not i mean i i've seen the cover uh which is why i did not endorse i can't endorse something you know i haven't checked out but uh one of the people on i think it was episode 150 or 151, commented that Adam Leventhal, the individual that was saying that the book was an advertisement for Russ, was a little bit validated by the following. And he's got three screenshots. Section three is named, stop using that. Section two, don't hurt yourself, is where we present guidelines for preventing

personal injury while writing code. And then section four is use this new thing properly, which, like I said, I haven't checked out the book, but it's a solid thing. Even though C++ is great, multi-paradigm, if the most modern books are coming out with chapters entitled don't hurt yourself um you know at least it's at least it's being honest oh look at this jonathan we've had we've had i mean loony was nothing special because loony comes on the podcast all the times but this is uh jonathan's this is we met when we were in yes you did this is Bumblebee and we are looking after her while her owners are away in Japan for three years

oh wow but she's a lovely dog aren't you Bumblebee and you have I mean we will put some links because I do have I do believe I tweeted I'm not actually sure if I did no I don't think you did I think the one

concrete section of beautiful C++ that I can recall having read actually read or not read but looked through is the chapter on default arguments versus overloading

because one I was trying to figure out how to structure something in a project, but two, I was wondering about what's the state of the, like, what's our design guideline for C++ standard library proposals? And I think there's been a couple other chapters that I've similarly looked at but all right back to bumblebee and your other pets okay well i have you have you have two kittens that are absolutely two cats yeah yeah sirius and remus um yes and then we have five alpacas, which are also lovely. Let me see if I can remember the names. I know one was Merlot. Very good.

Yeah. Alpha male. I want to say, I mean, a lot of them were wine names. I want to say Chardonnay. Yes. I think those are my two best guesses. I'll guess Sauvignon Blanc, but I don't think that's right. No, no.

What were the other three? Merlot, Malbec, and Montepulciano are the black alpacas. And then we have Chablis is the white, and Chardonnay is fawn-colored. So, yeah. Very adorable. If Bryce ever happens to be in Dublin, you've got to go and see the alpacas. They're very adorable. If Bryce ever happens to be in Dublin, you got to go and see the alpacas. They're very adorable. And it's still true.

It is a one world hub. So it is entirely possible that we could be connecting in or travel to Dublin. Yeah, indeed. But the lounges aren't great in Dublin, I have to say. I have heard that, yeah. But the lounges aren't great in Dublin, I have to say. I have heard that, yeah. Yeah. In fact, the Aer Lingus lounges, which I'm still a member of, I get free use of them, but there's so be a flight that would leave from London City Airport on an A318. It was an all business class flight. And they couldn't take off from London City Airport

with enough fuel to fly all the way to New York. But they wanted to be able to leave from London City Airport because it's near the city. And so what they would do is they would fly from London City Airport to, I think to Shannon. And they would land there and there was a US customs pre-clearance facility. And so they would land to refuel. But while they were refueling, you would go through US border control and customs, and then you would get back on the plane and then it would fly to New York, I think to JFK, although presumably it could have gone to LaGuardia because you were already pre-cleared. And then you'd have a direct flight but not a nonstop flight from London City Airport to New York.

That was if you wanted to fly for many years, the first few times I went to the States I would get on in Dublin airport they would stop in Shannon every plane that was heading to the States from Dublin would stop in Shannon and we would troop off the plane go through duty free troop back on

actually I think we no we actually would have also gone through emigration US emigration in Shannon which was a lot better than in the states i think yeah um and um yeah that's that's what we do and then they finally stopped that um so you could actually fly direct so there's now u.s immigration in dublin as well um yeah yeah yeah yeah because we've this is what are we whatever let's go to where this is over two

hours now right yeah we're just past the two hour mark which means i mean i thought this was going to be probably two or three episodes at this point it's probably going to be four episodes which if you're curious jonathan is going to put you at at the top because i t keep track. And that's going to put you, you're going to be tied with Kate Gregory, Chandler Carruth, Zach Lane, and Patricia Oss. Wow, I'm in incredibly good company. Yeah, it's a good list to be on. Is number one is Sean?

Yes, so that is, those four individuals are tied for seventh place, seventh to tenth, as most number of episodes. Who's number two? Above that is, oh yeah, let's play a little guessing game. Actually, actually, I'm so glad that we didn't wrap this up because, you know, we've been trying to kind of wrap this up for the for the og listeners and that might be that might mean that you've been listening for two plus close to three years or it might mean that you only started listening a month ago but you've been going through the back catalog uh jonathan you have actually been mentioned i want to say in at least two but like maybe upwards of four or five episodes because very early on you were the individual that created the bingo

cards and this is from like two and a half years ago i think that you made two different bingo cards i did two or three bingo cards yeah and i think i didn't even know initially it was you or maybe the first time i read it off because your twitter handle is like you can spell it out for us or pronounce it it's n-i-n-k-i-b-a-h which is somali for the man i did not know that uh i did know that your twitter was how do you pronounce it do you know ninky bar ninky bar yeah and more people i just i just checked you i don't understand why more people aren't following you on Twitter. More people should follow him on Twitter. Oh, thank you. We will have the bio.

The reason I chose that was that I did a year of linguistics after my computer science degree. And one of the courses we had was we had an eight-week course in Somali as a non-Indo-European language. And it's got very interesting characteristics. It's a tone-based language, so that would probably suit you, Connor, having learned Mandarin. It sounds like you were already a chess player at this point. Yeah, yeah yeah yeah yeah because i was gonna say uh if you were taking a a year of linguistics that's and uh you know you got the the game board that's like it's like a scrabble player waiting to be born but if you're already bitten by the chess bug i can understand

no no no chess chess is my thing and i and i'm now i'm now a roving chess diplomat um so i i get to i get to to vote for ireland in the world chess federation elections every every well the elections are every four years yeah but um yeah so that's i do follow you on twitter and i see your your chess tweets every once in a while and yeah yeah i don't have the knowledge to appreciate them at the level that i'm sure they can be appreciated at but yeah yeah so i i i suspect i suspect i should really split and have two twitter handles one for chess and one for everything else but indeed but the other thing is like twitter is about to die and i got it i got a vector of bull gave me an invite to blue skies but nothing's happening on there so I do have a

Mastodon thing that I set up a long time ago but Mastodon seems very complicated about you know where do you live so where do I go for to continue my my Twitter well the thing is that Twitter's been about to die for

you know a while yeah I think we just The thing is that Twitter's been about to die for, you know, a while. Yeah. I think we just, I don't think anything else, I think this is it. I think if Twitter goes away, Twitter goes away, and we all find something else to do with our spare time. I don't think that it's something that can be easily reproduced or replicated. Fair enough, fair enough.

My guess is that it's going to be one of these mastodon or blue sky things i mean uh what from talking to the oxide and friends folks they're all on the mastodon um site and honestly i was thinking like i'm i'm happy to switch when something is competitive but like i just discovered that you can't quote tweet on macedone from listening to like a oxide and friends old episode and like they were saying it because it discourages uh you know being mean but like i quote tweet all the time when i just see some talk or something and it's it's typically positive uh and also to like my history sometimes i tweet stuff just so that I have an image that I can include in a talk later. And like if Twitter dies,

do I lose my entire history of like commentatory logic tweets and discovering APL? I think you can generate a big large file of your whole complete history and download it. So no is the answer. And then it's like each of them are like HTML files. Don't worry, somebody has scraped the Twitter data sufficiently

that I'm sure you'll be able to get to find it. Yeah, I mean, it's still irritating though that like I'm gonna have to jump through some hoops in order to get like, I can't just go to the Twitter search, type at code report, and then the keyword that I know will, you know, like sometimes I just, I know that Google

Translate will get me one of those images and I can just copy and paste it. But yes, I mean, it does seem like Twitter is, it's dying a slow death. I mean, I'm still hopeful that, you know, things will turn around, but it definitely has not been trending. Anyway, Connor, Connor Bryce, I have one last story and then we'll finish here. I believe I was an employee of Adobe for about two days at the same time, at the same time as Sean parent was an employee.

So yes, because I joined a small company in the middle of the 90s, whose name escapes me. And they were a subsidiary of Aldus, who made Pagemaker. And their CEO had spent a year climbing mountains in South America. And that's when they did a deal to to um to join with adobe but it was more a takeover than a joint like merger um and so we were all in the all the programming team were in um seattle learning about windows 95 or chicago as it was then and on the thursday evening we got told we were all fired because because because uh we weren't going to be lit we wouldn't we didn't we weren't living in um i guess it was where is where's adobe is it in silicate somewhere in san

jose san jose yeah right so if you didn't want to if you didn't want to work in San Jose, you weren't working for Adobe anymore. And so, yeah, that was the end of us, sadly. So I suspect for about a week, Sean and myself were coworkers. Yeah, look at that. I mean, that's a perfect way to end Slash. We've got to's a perfect way to end slash we got to do the quiz though we got to do the quiz so is it uh do i ask both i'll ask both of you so you know tied in seventh were the four individuals i mentioned earlier we know sean is number one at 11 11

episodes and then i'll give you the numbers number two is nine episodes number four is six and then five number five and six are both five episodes so i would say sean sean baxter is probably in five or six episodes sean baxter is only he's ranked 11th at three episodes oh oh wow in last year it's it's there have been a couple there have been one or two people who've been on twice i just can't remember who actually wait is that right you might be you might be correcting my spreadsheet here let's go to tags search for uh because sean we definitely has he only been on that one time i thought i thought you had i think we only recorded with him once um yeah i think that was we did the one time when you went over to the apartment so so so i think that ben dean has because you recorded with him at c++ now and then we also had him on separately

so he's got to have been on at least six or seven yeah ben dean is number actually i realize these are all off by one so um but yes ben dean is number is number two ah okay i i have no idea about number three oh that's actually there's something ada ada prefers one based indexing to zero based indexing oh i do actually like that that is i i'm in the minority opinion amongst array language devs i think because both j and bqn are zero index yes zero indexed i haven't spent enough time programming in one indexed languages to know um but i i think i'm i think i might prefer it because mentally i think one base to zero base yeah mentally i think about the the first element not yeah yeah zero well i mean one of the i have a number of examples but the uh probably the top one i'd have to think

about it a little bit is the fact that if you take the length of an array and then you do and it's or it's not actually length because length will give you the correct. But if you do something to get like, you know, the index of, and then you want to do a take on the first, you know, elements up to and including that. If you, you know, your first index is zero and then you do a zero take, that gives you back an empty list. Whereas really what you want is most of the time you want that first element. You like, you want to retrieve the thing that corresponded to the index. So it's like, you know,

say I want the first odd element from like an array of numbers. That's just one, two, three, four, five. And so if I build up my mask, that's going to be one, zero, one, zero, one. And then I do a where, which is going to give me the indices. In apl it'll be one three and five but in bqn it'll be zero two and four and then i take the first value from where it's going to be zero in bqn and one in apl and then when you do a a take with that value apl will give you back the first odd but bqn will give you back nothing because you have to add one to that index when using it with certain algorithms like take and drop anyways Anyways, we're getting sidetracked. I can get to five episodes

by just throwing in the question. I was thinking in the back of my head, you found out you were going to be ranked and I think it's tied with six, but you could get tied with the fourth and fifth individuals. So yeah, we're missing number three, number four, number five,

who are six episodes and five episodes each i mean they are probably listening going shout my name how can you forget about me i mean one of them has the highest number of episodes and we recorded five episodes in one sitting which i mean you're you're approaching right now and we said we'd have him back on there's a first hint is that he and the second And we said we'd have him back on. The first hint is a he, and the second hint is we said we'd have him back on for the holiday special. How could that be?

I have no idea. The guest that made the most fun of Bryce while recording. Oh, JF? We've never had JF on. We're not going to have JF on. JF's on a rival podcast. I'm just listing people who are good at making fun of me. I don't know.

Wait, Zach. It's got to be Zach. Yeah, Zach Lane is number five. He was the one that we, one episode, five. One recording, five episodes. All right, number four. It's actually number three and number four. Tristan Brindle and Tony Van Eerd.

I was going to say, has Tony, have we recorded with Tony twice? I mean, you weren't there for one of them, which is why you probably forgotten. Because the first time we recorded with Tony, he showed, we recorded live during a virtual C++ Now way back in 2021. Because I think 2020 was canceled is that dinner um anyways bryce has disappeared from the screen i know i i'm still i mean this is why i got the microphone yeah we need to get you one of those cameras like the cisco webex cameras that follow you around so while you're up and about. Anyways, thank you so much for taking so much time, Jonathan. This was an absolute blast.

We are going to have to reconvene sometime, whether that's in Dublin or outside. What's the name of the small city? Mullingar. Mullingar. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's a very lovely, lovely place. Very much removed from, you know,

we're talking about being cyborgs and whatnot, but there's a sense of tranquility out where you live. There is, yes, yes. And we do have fiber broadband, which was installed at great expense by the Irish government last year. So it's pretty good. I mean, that's really all you need, right?

As long as you get the internet. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll be in Meeting C++ in Berlin. So anybody who's a listener to your podcast and that's happening next month. So please, I'll be helping out.

I'll be helping Jens run the show. So this is actually, depending on how we cut this now, because we are now at two hours and 21 minutes, will this become four or will this become five episodes? Meeting C++ is taking place the 12th to the 14th, which is a Sunday to a Tuesday.

And the fourth episode is going to be coming out on the 10th. So if we cut this into five, you will become, you will be tied with Zach Lane and Tony Van Eerd, but people are going to be hearing you say this after Meeting C++ has come out. So there is a kind of incentive, although will people be able to sign up two days before the conference happens? I don't know. Maybe, maybe not. Well, I presume everybody's bought their ticket by now. Yeah. I forgot to tell you, I'm going to Switzerland in November.

Is that because you're also going to meetings Z++? Or this is just a random fact? No, no. I got to go to CERN to talk to CERN. You want to come to Switzerland? Oh, CERN? Are you going to CERN? Yeah.

That's fantastic. In Geneva or near Geneva. It's brilliant. I was there a few cern yeah that's fantastic in geneva or near geneva it's brilliant yeah i was there a few years ago it's fantastic i am very excited don't put your head in the particle beam it's not a good idea i will i will try to remember that do you know this first hand experience i know because i asked the question has anyone ever put their head in the beam or what would happen and there was an engineer that unfortunately got his head in the beam. And he went blind, I think, within two days. And he didn't have a very long life after that.

So. Jeez. Wow. I did not know that. I thought it was going to be like you got laughed out of the room of like what a silly question but uh nope nope that had a different ending to that story than uh then i thought it was going to well i know you had a great time in switzerland connor you'd come with me i mean uh i'm not sure i've done so much traveling this year i mean you're always traveling but i i've spent way more time on the road than i uh yeah i typically like to

and if i mean if i was going to be in europe in november i feel like i'd want to go to But I've spent way more time on the road than I typically like to. And if I was going to be in Europe in November, I feel like I'd want to go to a meeting C++, go to a conference. I mean, what are the dates you're going to Switzerland? Maybe you can swing by, pop by. No, it's like November 26th. Is that post-code dive? You're also going to code dive then or no? No, originally I told them no, I can't go

because I thought it overlapped with the committee meeting. But then I realized that it didn't. But it was it was it's just too much travel because if I was going to Code Dive, then I would be out for three weeks and then Thanksgiving. And I basically it would just be too much. So, yeah, well, next year, if you're listening to this either on... If you're listening to this on November 10th, check out Meeting C++. There might be tickets still available. And CodeDive,

I don't actually know the exact dates, but I know that is later on. They just posted the agenda, actually. Yeah. Well, let's look it up while we're here. CodeDive, it's one of my favorite conferences. They hold it in a movie theater, which is such a cool vibe i am kind of bummed to not going because it looks like a really cool conference and yeah and it's

not just c++ so you get to go see some python some javascript uh you can stick to just c++ talks if you want but yes 16th of november which actually now that i think about it if this if i was going to say probably if but if it's getting if this episode is on November 17th, you can still check out Code Dive. Turns out it's too late. So anyways, we've been saying goodbye for like half an hour now. Yeah. Thank you so much for taking the time, Jonathan. Take care, guys.

It was great, great being here. And I hope to see you in the real world sometime soon. Soon, hopefully. Ciao. Be sure to check these show notes either in your podcast app or at ADSPthepodcast.com for links to any of the things we mentioned in today's episode,

as well as a link to the GitHub discussion where you can leave comments, thoughts, and questions. Thanks for listening. We hope you enjoyed and have a great day. Low quality, high quantity. That is the tagline of our podcast.

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