Algorithms + Data Structures = Programs - Episode 165: 2023 Retro! LLMs, Rust vs C++ and More!

Episode Date: January 19, 2024

Link to Episode 165 on WebsiteDiscuss this episode, leave a comment, or ask a question (on GitHub)TwitterADSP: The PodcastConor HoekstraBryce Adelstein LelbachShow NotesDate Recorded: 2024-01-18Date Released: 2024-01-19ADSP Episode 164: Are We Going to Run Out of Credit Cards?ADSP Episode 163: Sean Parent on Tilt Five, Metrowerks & Be Inc.Acquired Podcast S10E5: Nvidia Part I: The GPU Company (1993-2006)Acquired Podcast S10E6: Nvidia Part II: The Machine Learning Company (2006-2022)Acquired Podcast S13E3: Nvidia Part III: The Dawn of the AI Era (2022-2023)Acquired Podcast: NVIDIA CEO Jensen HuangADSP Episode 150: Is C++ Dying?Rust Programming LanguageHylo Programming LanguageCircle C++ CompilerCarbon Programming LanguageMLIRMojoGoC++ Community SurveyLambdaDaysRun For the Fun of It Episode 14: YüBaí Joins BlackToe 🥳, 5k & Half PBs 🔥 & 2024 Goals 🎯CppNorthIntro Song InfoMiss You by Sarah Jansen https://soundcloud.com/sarahjansenmusicCreative Commons — Attribution 3.0 Unported — CC BY 3.0Free Download / Stream: http://bit.ly/l-miss-youMusic promoted by Audio Library https://youtu.be/iYYxnasvfx8

So the point being, you were right, Bryce. I was wrong. I'm going to need a clip of that little part of the conversation. What the? You were right. I was wrong? Yes. I'll put that as the cold open.

How about that? So episode 165, you'll be able to go back to at any point you want. Perfect. Welcome to ADSP, the podcast episode 165 recorded on January 18th, 2024. My name is Connor and today with my co-host Bryce, we look back at some of the highlights of the year 2023 in our annual retro LLMs, Rust versus C++, and we also look ahead to the year 2023 in our annual retro, LLM's Rust vs. C++, and we also look ahead to the year 2024. I did call you with the intention of start early, end early. So let's get this going.

All right, 424, folks. We're going to timebox this to 30 minutes, so we will be done five minutes before the hour. Welcome to Happy New Year. Because I'm not actually even sure. You so quickly were eager to ask me your credit card number question last time. I don't think we exchanged any pleasantries, any Happy New Years. Happy New Year.

Happy New Year. I mean, we did chat a little bit afterwards. But anyways, none of that made it because I mentioned on the last edit of episode 164, Microsoft screwed us two different ways. A bit of it's my fault. I think I actually do have Audacity set up to back things up. I went and checked it, but it did not back things up when the computer restarted. I was just reading a thread about that, about Audacity not backing things up when Windows does forced updates because I was trying to figure out how to prevent it from happening to me.

Yeah. And the thing is, like 75% of the time when that has happened, it's only happened a handful of times, my recordings are recovered. So they typically are recovered. But in this one case, I had three different Audacity projects. Technically, one of them was outtakes from our conversation with Sean, where we were talking about an individual in the C++ community having gone to a new employer, and we had to cut all that out. And I was going to insert it in one of these episodes at some point, but I'll have to go back and find that if we're going to do that. Anyways, point is, Microsoft, Windows restarted, then Teams crashed. We're still using Teams. Why are we still using Teams, Bryce? It's a good question.

Because we're cheap and we don't have another alternative. Look, you know the reason that we use Zoom? Because at the time, I was an officer of an ISO committee. And so I had a Zoom account paid for by ISO. And so I just used that for everything. But now I don't have any paid Zoom account. So we're limited to an hour or 40 minutes or something when we have more than two people. And so, yeah, we're cheap.

Now we're using Teams because that's what NVIDIA uses. And so once again, we're cheap. I'm cheap at least. Yeah, I agree. I mean, we at some point, we're going to get merch. 2024 is the year of merch. I will have stickers by the time I'm going to conferences. Here's a quick question though.

Take your mic. The reason I bring this up is because I mentioned this at the top of episode 164. This was an edit that I added in. So Bryce did not hear this. But I recently came across my new favorite podcast called acquired, also known as acquired FM. And I saw you tweet about, they did four different episodes, three specifically on Nvidia. And then they did an interview with Jensen.

It is amazing folks. I already plugged it once, even if you don't like podcasts, which now that I'm saying that out loud, you're clearly listening to ours. So you must have at least some familiarity with them or desire to listen to them. It's so good. And the reason I bring it up is not to plug it again, but their research and their auto quality and their production value is just so good. It makes me sad about my podcast.

Because my audio is good, but Bryce's, you know, Bryce's all over the place. But hey, hey, hey hey we did now i got this thing it's good it's pretty good now but that's why i was asking because it did sound a little tinny but anyways we're doing our best here folks and long-term goals this podcast is going to be going on for decades we are going to we're going to find you know the first class world class experience we're still we're not going to take ourselves as seriously as Acquired takes themselves because I will, and this is a great way to transition. I have misunderstood the value or what the purpose of our podcast is. I love the motto, chaos with sprinkles of information. However, I thought it was a little bit too chaotic last episode, a little too chaotic.

And I asked for feedback. I asked the listeners, please go to Twitter or to GitHub. And we got an overwhelming amount of feedback, 10 different people, eight different comments. And I will stand corrected. Bryce was overwhelmingly correct. I thought it was our worst episode ever. I will read from a few of the comments that were left on the GitHub discussion from Pascal754. Actually, let's see if I click on the profile, do I get a full name? I do not. Although they say they're from South Korea. So shout out to our South Korean listeners. This episode was hilarious. And then they linked to a problem from a Harvard course. If we scroll down a little bit more, I'm not going to read them all. Kent F, let's double click on their profile.

This person is located in Oslo, according to GitHub. Could be right, could be wrong. Kent F. So Kent says, Connor, sadly, I have to agree with Bryce. This episode was gold. As they say about streaming services

slash cable TV, come for the movies, stay for the TV shows. Your podcast is come for the algorithm stay for the banter a discussion with Sean parent episodes are always platinum grade content thanks the next one says from pet Hill where's pet Hill tuning in from no information but the full name is Peter Hilgenfeld and they mentioned this was fun the high-pitched forwarding noise really really hurts my ears. Please stop it.

And I have to apologize because I usually only 10x Bryce, but when we went from minute 4 to minute 17 where my audio was still back online, I had to, I think it was 50x it and that really made, it really went high squeaky at that point. We've got another one from ProfRS. ProfRS

is tuning in from this is Robert I'm going to mispronounce this Skabbrassy I apologize Robert from Valhalla, New York where's Valhalla? Is that close to New York? Do you know where that is?

You know all those towns that have names like Valhalla are like real real deep upstate I love how we're just this isn't technically considered doxing, right? If their Simpo is on their GitHub profile, what does mine say? So Valhalla is actually, it's not that far north. It's, I think it's like Westchester County. It's just north of the city.

That definitely sounds right because it looks like they work for, or at least it says next to a little building icon, Westchester Community College. And anyways, yeah, mine says Toronto, Ontario. So I don't think this is doxing. We apologize if people wanted to stay anonymous. But hey, if you're the listener who lives in Valhalla, like, you know, we can get coffee sometimes. We live nearby. But yes, this individual, if I can get back to the comments, said, Bryce, it will definitely be one of my favorite episodes of the year. And to Connor, listenable content wise, it was awful. However, the 90 seconds of 10x audio was outstandingly hilarious.

You even 10x'd yourself. I did. Apologize to those whose comments I didn't read. We appreciate all of them. But the point is, overwhelmingly, the listeners gave feedback, and I was wrong. I thought it was a terrible episode. And the listeners, even though maybe they didn't learn a ton, they were clearly entertained. So the point being, you were right, Bryce.

I was wrong. And to get back to Acquired, we're not going to go as professional as them, but we're going to try and give you the best audio quality. I'm going to need a clip of that little part of the conversation. What the? You were right. I was wrong? Yes.

I'll put that as the cold open. How about that? So episode 165, you'll be able to go back to at any point you want. Anyways, that's, I think, like almost 10 minutes out of the way. Today's episode is a re-recording of what we already recorded, but Windows destroyed, Microsoft destroyed, and it is the 2023 recap and 2024 look ahead. We've already done this once, so will it be as amazing as it was before? Nobody knows. We're going to throw it over to Bryce, though, first. What were your highlights? Top five, top three. I mean, I already asked you this and you didn't give me a top five, top three.

Will he this time? Will he not? Go ahead, Bryce. Tell us, reflect back on 2023. What stands out to you? So I'm not going to give them any particular order, but I'll say to me, it was the year of large language models, you know, huge theme throughout the tech industry. I think it's going to be a transformative thing that we'll see slow adoption of over the next five to 10 years. So I don't think there'll be as much excitement in the next few years

because, you know, it's an exciting new technology. But as I always like to say, momentum is king in the software industry. So it takes a long time for things to be adopted. 2023 was also the year of C++23. Great standard. Really proud of the work that we did on that one. Even though I'm no longer chairing on the C++ committee, I'm really proud of the team that I worked with when I was there.

I had a great time. I think we produced a great standard. This time I get to mention the thing that I left out the last time I did this, which was, of course, a huge highlight for me, was the ADSP Slovenia road trip, which I thought was just a blast. And, you know, we got to do one of these every year. You know, being out on the road, going to visit. It combines my little travels, travel with my love of talking shit about programming languages. And let's see, what other highlights come to mind? I'm trying to think.

I think that was mostly everything that you said last time yeah c++ oh yeah i think i i asked you the question so this is the hard thing as i've already asked and have had these answered but the listener hasn't what you know at one point episode 150 probably will go down as our most popular episode of 2023 that was uh is c++ dying but you've kind of flip-flopped when we talked to zach it sounds like reflection is making it now senders and receivers what is your current what is the state of the bryce's opinion on successor languages and c++ even a broken clock is right two times a day um reflection is great i'm super excited about it i really hope it makes it into C++26. I Like set aside that, set aside whether issues

there are with C++ and set aside like the question of how good C++ is today. It's a question of acceleration, not velocity. It's a question of where is C++ going and how quickly can it get there? And the evolution process is just simply not sufficient. It's broken in many ways. And without real substantial reform, I think that C++ is a very questionable future. And I've spent a good seven, eight years of my career trying to bring about that reform. And I'm proud of the changes I was able to make, but it's just simply not enough. So I still think that C++ is in trouble. But back to 2023, I think that 2023 is in many ways the year of rust. I think it's really been a year that's been a focal point in rust going from being a challenger to becoming more established and more of a part of the, an incumbent, you know,

it's gone from being the challenger to potentially the challenged. And now we see Rust in the Linux kernel. We're increasingly seeing Rust used in a wide number of projects. Even within my own work, I hear more and more people talking about

Rust, interested in Rust. I think it's become clear that Rust has succeeded in the space of next generation systems software languages. And I've always said for a long time that to me, almost one of the least interesting things about Rust is the memory safety aspect. And I mean, I think it's a compelling part of it it but that's not what interests me about Rust what interests me about Rust is a systems programming language with a substantially better package management and build ecosystem and a better process and model for evolving the language

now obviously there's been a lot of drama and controversy in the Rust leadership over the past year or two but I do think that that's present in any community and environment. And I am hopeful that those are just growing pains because I think Rust's, at least until recent drama, Rust's community and evolution process has been substantially better than a lot of established languages.

And I had a lot of hope that it would become a platform for the next generation of systems programming languages and then the next place that we can all build our system software. So any predictions in that space, Rust versus C++ versus other languages over 2024? Do you think it's just going to be more of the same rust on the slow rise and C++ on the slow decline? I think that what we're going to start to see with rust is that we are going to start to see rust experience and overcome various growing pains. You know, I've already heard of some growing pains with cargo and with that ecosystem.

I'm aware of some other growing pains, but I think that as Rust starts to get more and more up to scale and now that it has to serve a broader and broader set of users, including now kernel developers, and I don't say that as if the kernel, like being in the Linux kernel

is like a game changer thing, but I say that as an example of there's a hundred use cases like the Linux kernel that have very specialized requirements that are now using Rust that weren't using Rust a year ago. And the more and more of those users that have very specialized requirements that Rust adopts, the harder and harder it'll be to make changes and to evolve. And the real test for Rust is, can it maintain its agility and velocity as a language as it builds up a real user base

and as it starts to build up a code legacy? You know, Titus Winters loves to say that software engineering is like programming integrated over time or something like that. It's not just about writing code, but it's about how that code is maintained over a long period of time. And those sorts of software engineering challenges, Rust is going to increasingly start to face those. And I do think that this is going to be a year where we will start to see more and more of those growing pains as rust increasingly is adopted in more and more places. It'll be very exciting to see this unfold. I mean, it's already been exciting over the last year, two years, especially with carbon, hylo, circle,

so much going on in space. I do also think that another area where we're going to see a lot of interesting developments in this year is the continued growth of MLIR which is a higher level compiler representation that's part of the LVM project that can be used to build domain specific

compiler representations and I think that over the next few years we're going to see more and more compilers start to use and adopt MLIR and build all sorts of programming language and domain-specific optimizations and pipelines with MLIR. And I think in many ways, MLIR may democratize compiler technology. So a lot of things that get done today in libraries um or in sort of like bespoke weird quirky code generators or pseudo compilers will start to move more and more to um mlir interesting do you think uh mojo because mojo is being built on top of mlir as well do you think

that'll see any success or you have thoughts there i mean i wouldn't bet against chris latner yeah that's true he he has for those that don't know has had a number of very successful projects including llvm clang swift etc and he is the person behind mojo i i think that it's going to be hard for mojo to succeed though because um it's not at least from what i see it's not a community effort it's very much their thing and the the company behind mojo is if i understand correctly they're a hardware startup more or less yes i actually am not i have not familiarized myself with their business model i've just seen the talks that they've they've pitched hang on i'm looking right now it's uh uh i mean what hardware are they selling um it's the it's the company's called modular i mean even

wikipedia call not that's that's rough wikipedia calls it a proprietary programming language even if it is that's a little bit rough to have that be your first line on um uh on uh on wikipedia um uh modular i think they do like ai infrastructure and platform i don't know if they have hardware but i for some reason i thought that they did um uh maybe it's maybe it's hardware agnostic, but it is still, it's not designed as a, at least my impression is that it's not an open thing where they're inviting other contributors and other companies to participate in the development of it yet.

And I think until that happens, it looks like they don't make their own hardware, but that it's just like an AI platform thingy. I think almost all languages have to go through this test of where they need to see whether they can gain broader adoption than just their one initial champion. If it's just one person, then it looks like they may not have enough steam behind them. And if it's just one company, then people are always going to be worried about like, oh, is this just their company, this one company's thing? Like, oh, is this just Google's language or Facebook's language?

And you can't really become a successful language until you grow beyond that. You know, for Rust, it was originally like this Mozilla thing, and it took a few years to grow beyond that. But do you think of Rust as Mozilla's language now? Yeah, not really, no. Yeah. In fact, when I talk about Rust, when we talk about Rust, I don't even think it's come up that Rust was developed at Mozilla Research. I bet if you searched through every previous episode of this podcast, I don't even think we've mentioned it that that rust started at mozilla it might have been it might have been brought up on the episodes where we interviewed jane

oh yeah that may have come up there um but but the fact that i can't like that neither of us can remember whether we talked about its origins that that speaks well for it you know rust is used by a variety of companies now, and it's got a foundation. And it's not just, you know, it's not just, you know, one company's thing. And a language to be truly successful has to grow beyond becoming one company's thing. I mean, unless you're Java and Oracle, in which case, you know, you can just... It'd be interesting to get, because we've got plans not to spoil our... Although, you know, spoil is generous,

because we've had these people on our list for like a year plus now. We plan to get, you know, Andrew Kelly of Zig on, some Russ folks on. It might be interesting to get some Go folks on. I mean, even Rob rob pike because go is a fascinating language in that yes it was championed by google but it's definitely grown to a point where like it's not identified as like the google language anymore like that's what i i do still kind of think of it as the google language um i mean it's the origin. The origins were in Google. But like it's a language that just entered the top 10 on some programming language rankings. And it's like ranks above Rust.

But you don't hear nearly as much buzz or hype about Go than you do, or at least I don't, compared to Rust. And yeah, I find that curious. And also it's a language that is like a programming language enthusiast. Like no PL theory people or PL, you know, that kind of space academics. They're not really big fans of it because it didn't do anything really interesting or exciting other than maybe like their concurrency model. And everything else was either like already done before not novel or like pretty boring and the fact that they didn't have generics until like 1.18 you know a lot of pl enthusiasts were just like well the language is done like it like i'm not going to use it if it doesn't have that

anyways it's just interesting that like a language that compared to many other languages is kind of boring and simple has done even better than like a language like rust it would be interesting it would be interesting to talk about and to look at go because uh you know our colleague andre he likes to say that you know a language has to be 10x better than the competition in some way shape or form to to succeed and so there must be some 10x aspect to go that's led to success i feel like maybe it's like a bunch of like two to five x improvements on a bunch of small things which like totals because like it's compiled times are incredibly fast it produces like a single executable like you don't have to link stuff

it's like it's just much simpler all the code looks the same anyways we'll get a go expert on we're running short on time we got less than 10 minutes left uh any other 2023 i think it's got to have some i don't think that a bunch of two x's to five x's are um uh is equal to a 10x and even one dimension so i just linked you um uh an interesting thing about 2023 which is it just came out the jet brains annual c++ ecosystem survey, which I consider the best survey of the C++ ecosystem and community. And I don't know, maybe we can look at it and see if there are some interesting trends going on. I read it. It was kind of boring.

Thanks, buddy. You know, I was one of the three people that they asked for feedback on it. I mean, like, what is there to say? People are moving to more recent standards. Python's the next most popular language that C devs know. VS Code is the most popular after that. It's shocking to see a drop in the survey numbers of CMake,

although I suggest that means that there's just a margin of error in that CMake has saturated at about 50% market share. Yeah. It's hard to look into these numbers, you know. Anything you want to remark on it? Well, if I remember my... Let me see if I can remember my remarks

that I originally sent to them. So I mentioned that there's... We saw a large jump in adoption of C++20, which isn't shocking because it usually takes two to three years for implementations to really pick up the latest

standard. And I think this is not just a C++ thing. I think it's true that for almost anything it takes a while for adoption to really pick up. Once you put out a new thing, it takes a while for adoption to really pick up. You know, once you put out a new thing, it takes a while for it to saturate in the ecosystem. But, you know, C++20 usage going from 23% to 29%, that's a pretty big jump, especially relative to the other dialects.

I was surprised to see that almost 50% of people plan to use modules in the next 12 months, which is interesting because that's one feature where we haven't seen a ton of adoption yet. But just recently, CMake launched their support for C++ modules in a non-experimental way. It had been experimental for a while, but now it's fully baked. And so maybe we will see a lot of adoption of modules in the next year. And so maybe we will see a lot of adoption of modules in the next year. In particular, we may see a lot of adoption of using the standard library module. Even if you're not making your own library and your own code into modules, you might just use the module from your standard library, the std module, which can give you some significant uh compilation uh time wins um

so i i think that that's the the the the first way that we'll see people using modules is not providing their own modules but just using the std module yeah i've tried every four months for like the last couple years because i've seen talks and i've seen demos and i've seen articles about how it's usable and i've even seen like someone with a microsoft visual studio use import stud and it just never works like uh they've always you gotta always check a bunch of boxes and experimental blah blah and the thing is is i think a lot of these they ship with some you know starter experience for modules but like standardization of these standard headers or whatever, that's a C++23 feature, which as far as I know,

no library has done the work for yet. Anyways, hopefully people can start to use modules. And I got two or three more interesting things here. So one, you know, survey results indicate people still not using package managers. Very low adoption, only like 11% adoption of VC package, which is the most successful one. And the other ones account for like maybe 12% combined, maybe a little bit more than that, but only like 25% of people are using some form of package manager. And that doesn't necessarily surprise me,

but I wonder whether we'll start to see more and more adoption and more centralization around one of them. Like in particular, VC package seems to be the leader. And in terms of IDEs, this is the first year that the survey where Visual Studio has been tied with another IDE for the top spot. Usually Visual Studio shows up as the most popular IDE, but this year it's tied with the JetBrains CLion IDE, which is pretty interesting. Because you look at back when CLion came out in the market market and really there was only just one IDE, Visual Studio,

and then I guess if you were on Mac, there was Xcode. But now we're seeing a lot more diversity in developer environments for C++. I think that's pretty much it from the survey. But I do think there's some interesting insights to be gleaned from it. Yeah? Link will be in the show notes if you want to read it yourself. All right. We've got

three minutes left, four minutes left. Predictions for 2024. Yeah. So I, well, not predictions. I got to do my recap of 2023. I mean, technically you already heard it last time we recorded, but then we lost it. Anyways, I'll rattle through them quickly. I'm not even sure if this is the right order because I had it down before and then deleted it. We'll come in with number five, which was hanging out with Sean Parent at C++ on C back at the tail end of June. That turned into three different episodes. It was an absolute blast. When Sean was on, we made a reference to it. Hopefully, we'll get to do something like that similar

at a different meetup or conference in 2024. Number four is the two top conferences, in my opinion, for the year were KXCon, which is the conference put on by First Derivatives that focuses around the Q language, and Lambda Days, the functional programming plus plus conference that takes place in Krakow, Poland. Hope to go back to both of these conferences in 2024, but time will tell if that works out with my schedule. Number three, similar to what Bryce said, Slovenia 2023 trip. I still have fond memories thinking about wandering through the streets of Venice, recording podcasts, getting donuts, eating snacks. Fantastic. Number two was not tech related. It was all the running. Check out the running podcast, link in the show notes. We're not going to say more about it here.

And number one is to be announced at a later date in 2024. All right. Anything else? Or we got like one minute left. 2024 predictions, Bryce, go. 2024 predictions. Didn't we already do these a little bit? Well, okay.

So one prediction. I don't think that there will be as much exciting large language model news this year as there was last year. Because last year was like the big hype curve, and now we've got the slow road to adoption. I think that there will be breakthroughs and developments, but I don't think that there will be quite as much excitement as there has been. I think that we're on like a five to 10 year road of productization. I think that reflection will probably make significant progress in C++. I'm hoping to get more involved in the Rust world this year. I may try to go to RustConf and doing some other compiler things

that are pretty exciting that I don't think I can share many more details about other than that they're exciting. I'm going to Ireland with my mother for right before ECCU in a couple months so we're excited about that. If you live, if you happen to live anywhere between Dublin and Dingle

which is as far as I can tell on the westernmost side of Ireland and you want, which is, as far as I can tell, on the westernmost side of Ireland. And you want to hang out. My mom and I are going to be driving from Dingle back to Dublin because we have a friend who lives in Dingle. And the most convenient way to get from there to our flight is to drive. So we're going to have a little bit of an Irish road trip. So if anybody wants to hang out meet my mother let me know

any other conferences you just you just alluded to the fact that you're going to accu any other conferences that you're planning at the moment or tbd yeah it's a minute to cpp north but they were they didn't accept me last year so who knows knows? I may not be good enough for them. I may go to C++ now. Cpp on C it may go to. The dates are a little tricky for me. Let's see other conferences. I'm actually, I'm still in the process of putting together.

I'll probably be at CodeDive and I'll be at Core C++ and probably a couple other ones thrown in there. Awesome. I think, yeah, of the ones that you said, I've submitted to CPP North. Yeah. Announcement, if you didn't know. CPP North's call for proposals is open until, I think, mid-February. What are the other ones I've submitted to?

But nobody submit because I want my talk to be accepted. Definitely submit. If Bryce can't, you know, get his talk accepted. That just gives us fodder for the podcast. Yeah. And what are the other ones? I submitted to Lambda Days, KXCons, Details isn't out yet, PLDI, which is going to be in Copenhagen. If there is going to be an array workshop, I would like to submit a paper there. But they have not posted on the PLDI website whether or not that's going to happen or not yet. That's in June. And I think, oh yeah, PyCon I submitted a talk to. And also,

I submitted my talk to an NDC conference. So yeah, I don't think I'll get accepted to all of them, but I'll definitely be. Once we're accepted, if we're accepted, we will let the listeners know. And a promise to close out episode 165, recap of 2023, a look ahead to 2024. We will have merch. Well, not like purchasable merch. Maybe we will. But we will definitely have stickers. For those of you that have come up and said hi and said kind things about the podcast at conferences in 2023, we didn't have stickers.

This year, it's an ADSP promise. We're going to have ADSP stickers. So be sure to ask if you bump into us at one of the conferences and you'd like one. Any other closing thoughts? So wait, so wait. Now I have to figure out how to make room in my standard luggage for stickers?

All right, I'm going to rephrase what I just said. I, Connor Hoekstra, co-host of ADSP, will have ADSP stickers. I will have ADSP stickers as well. If you would like one, come up to me. Bryce may or may not. It is unclear depending on how packed his luggages are. All right, folks. Episode 166, are we going to have a guest?

Maybe, maybe not. We'll figure that out in between now and the next time when we record. Be sure to check these show notes either in your podcast app or at adsptopodcast.com for links to anything we mentioned in the episode, as well as a link to the GitHub discussion where you can leave thoughts, comments, and questions. Thanks for listening. We hope you enjoyed and have a great day. Low quality, high high quantity that is the

tagline of our podcast it's not the tagline our tagline is chaos with sprinkles of information