Algorithms + Data Structures = Programs - Episode 248: The Philosophy of Good Software Design (Part 2)

Episode Date: August 22, 2025

In this episode, Conor and Ben chat about the philosophy of good software design, TV shows, movies and more!Link to Episode 248 on WebsiteDiscuss this episode, leave a comment, or ask a question (on GitHub)SocialsADSP: The Podcast: TwitterConor Hoekstra: Twitter | BlueSky | MastodonBen Deane: Twitter | BlueSkyShow NotesDate Recorded: 2025-08-05Date Released: 2025-08-22MISRA C++Lightning Talk: Strategies for Developing Safety-Critical Software in C++ - Emily Durie-JohnsonSkeuomorphismC++Now 2018: Ben Deane “Easy to Use, Hard to Misuse: Declarative Style in C++”Intro Song InfoMiss You by Sarah Jansen https://soundcloud.com/sarahjansenmusicCreative Commons — Attribution 3.0 Unported — CC BY 3.0Free Download / Stream: http://bit.ly/l-miss-youMusic promoted by Audio Library https://youtu.be/iYYxnasvfx8

It's the same thing in the digital world, the same thing in APIs, right? If you come across an object, a class that has a begin method, where you probably expect it to have an end method, and you probably expect those two to delimit an iterable range, right? It would be weird not to. If you come across an object that has a indexing operator, square brackets, then along with that goes the idea that, well, this should be constant time, right? An indexing operator, and it should be,

random access, right? You would be surprised, you would be thrown, you would potentially be stepping into a performance pitfall if you came across an object with an indexing operator and that turned out to be quadratic or whatever. Welcome to ADSP, the podcast, episode 248 recorded on August 5th. 2025. My name is Connor, and today with my co-host, Ben, we continue our conversation on the philosophy of good software design, as well as talk about some TV shows, movies, and more. What does the future look like in a world where people are using AI? Like, my guess is that

similar to how the car industry has, what is it, Mizra? There's a bunch of guidelines on when you're using C++, you know, you can't use dynamically allocated. memory at all, I think, or you have to do some upfront pool allocation. Yeah. Well, here's the thing about Misra. Have you read the Misra standard? I have read bits and pieces. I've definitely not. I mean, it's pretty lengthy. So I haven't, have you back to front read it? I haven't read it back to front, but I've read parts of it. And what I noticed was that it's not a binary thing, right? It's not the case of you adhere to Misra or you don't adhere to it.

For every sort of idea of there's a rule for this, there are actually multiple rules. And they gradate the compliance, right? And so you can wave certain parts. And overall, it's a good thing, and it makes your code safer, perhaps. But there are always these sliding scales, right? So for many, many cases in there, if there's an idea of you shout, not do this then there's also an idea of now you shall not do this most of the time except

sometimes or you know that so there are so it's sort of you know there's never a hard and fast on or off binary decision or almost never um and so with all of these things it's the same way in for example like medical devices now i'm no expert but from what i've heard um and this is where the kind of regulatory stuff comes into play it is a it is very expensive to get a device a code base certified right but it's much less expensive to get an update to that device cleared right and so of course what we see is most companies most of the time trying to position their products as updates rather than brand new things to ease the regulatory burden So, you know, there are outside effects like that that come into play.

Yeah. Yeah, I'm definitely not an expert in the area either, but I can imagine a world where there's going to be some equivalent regulation with respect to these LOMs and Gen. AI when it comes to these critical software domains. Like, yeah, I think, like I said, if you're standing up a website, no one really cares, especially if it's just for yourself, right? Yeah. Worst case, whatever, your personal.

tool doesn't work and you've got to go figure that out. It was interesting working in the finance industry and the interesting part really was that was the SEC, right? Which things may have maybe different now but I'm pretty sure that the SEC is the last organ of the US government that has any kind of teeth at all.

They may have fewer than they used to. Is this just in the later administration or just? I don't know because I'm not in the industry anymore. I haven't bothered to keep up. But it is certainly true that, you know, so when it comes to corporate America versus governmental America versus regulation, corporate America always wins.

The one case where the government has or had teeth, I think, was the SEC. Who could basically come in at any time ask to see anything at all, any line of code, any transatlose. transaction from any point in history sort of thing you know they have that power well they did have and and yeah it's interesting that we and it's the same thing similar although i have much less a much less experience i did once interview someone when i was working in games and they were coming to us and they were working for they were working in in las vegas they're working on slot machines writing the code and they and they told similar stories about the nevada gaming commission you know so when it comes to money things are serious apparently things are less serious when it comes to human life sadly that is very sad i guess there is there i don't have no ideas i imagine that there's some equivalent misra for medical devices and software that lives inside those i i'm sure there has to be but this is where my i can't speak i have i have no knowledge but i i imagine they

they do you know at the end of the day they're programming embedded devices they have strong safety concerns actually there was a lightning talk last CPP con from one of the people who comes to my local meetup and her name is Emily I think it's Emily apologies Emily if I'm misremembering your name she gave a really great talk she works for a medical device firm in the Denver area she gave a really great lightning talk at CPP con I will uh track that down on the interwebs and throw that in the show notes. We got down this tangent by me mentioning a couple other talks that Titus and David had given.

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Software code design. Yeah. So, I mean, and so you said you kind of start this course out on a bit of a philosophical note, you know, what is, what is beautiful code, what is ugly code? You know, how do we assess, like, what are the, what's the rubric by which we judge code to determine whether it's good or bad or beautiful or ugly?

So I guess, you know, we don't have time for you to reteach the course right now. But maybe hit on some high notes and take us on an overview of what the journey is. I pull from design disciplines in the outside of software and sort of overlapping software, the world of the world outside, right? So I touch on things like, you know, UI design is one thing I touch on, because that's sort of adjacent to code design. And in fact, it's, you know, if you're writing an application and you're thinking about it holistically, you want to make the code harmonious with the design as presented to the user, right? So it's things like, you know, it's things that are with all these things, they seem obvious in hindsight, but they aren't necessarily obvious to think about up front. A great example of this is the desktop trash can, right? The trash can on the computer desktop.

Actually, it's only called the trash can in Apple. There's a fascinating sort of trademark copyright legal history there through the 80s, which is why to this day Windows still calls it the recycling bin. But it was introduced, at least, to the public for the first time, with the Apple Lisa in about 1983. doubtless Apple got the idea from Syrox Park I don't particularly know the history there but the question is this

what's the purpose of the desktop trash can right now superficially we would say well it's so you can delete things right that's the sort of obvious answer that presents itself that is not the purpose of the trash can you could already delete things before you had a trash can

right you didn't just fill up your drive and then When you were done, oh, no, I have to get a new drive now. No, the purpose of the trash can is to facilitate undeletion. The problem it solves is that you deleted something you didn't mean to delete it, and now you need to undelete it. And once you appreciate that as the true nature, then that opens up a whole lot of other questions around the design axes.

Right? Like, how should things be stored in there? How should things be sorted in there? right these days we're all used this is going to blow your mind but for about 30 years after 1983 it took a very long time it took till about Apple finally got all the use cases sorted out probably in about 2015 it's pretty recent history right but there are questions like should I have one trash can for the whole system or a trash can per drive you know so those that's a design choice if I have one for the system then things

appear and disappear when I stick in USB sticks, right? Because the system doesn't know about it if the drive's not there, but now we have drives you can plug in and take out. So should there be one place where they're displayed or should they be per drive? Should there be one, you know, for a long time, though it was a one button interface. You could choose to empty the trash. You couldn't do anything else. And that's not good because, you know, not all things in there are equal. so yeah there are lots of design decisions that go into it and they are sort of brought more into focus by the idea of what's the actual problem this solves right it is not it is not the same as the trash can in my office right the physical trash can on your house is mostly for staging the trash

so you don't have to take it out to the driveway to your city trash can right that's seldom do you have to actually remove things from the trash in your house it's always a pain to do so. The system is not optimized for that. The purpose of the trash can in your office or in your kitchen is to stage as a staging area for the garbage, which is not the same as the trash can on your desktop. So, you know, just thinking about things like that

opens up the ideas. It tells us, for example, that, you know, skeuomorphism while being a good teaching mechanism, making things in the computer look like their real-life counterparts, it only goes so far. That was called skewer-morphism. Skeu-O-Morphism. Skew-O-Morphism.

Yeah, it's got a really weird spelling. It's Greek-derived. S-K-E-U-something. But it's the idea that digital interfaces and digital objects represent their real-world counterparts. This is why the save icon still looks like a floppy disk, right? Even though I would struggle to find a floppy disk. disc in my house right now. Oh yeah, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, someone made some

remark about, uh, floppy, floppy, uh, making you old or something. And then we got a flurry of comments from people that had, had them lying around, uh, yeah, there are all kinds of things like that. It's like, it's like, it's like when you think of an icon for a telephone, right? You probably think of the classic handset from a rotary phone. Right. Phones haven't looked like that in 20 years. Yeah. Right? Pretty much.

Yeah, someone asked me if the phone I was calling on was a cell phone and I was kind of shocked. I was like, you know, so many forms, they have like home, work, sell. And I understand that some people have a work cell phone. But like, what percentage of folks, I don't know, I guess I've just always had a cell phone. I've never had a landline that was in a place that I was renting. And so I just kind of, like, aren't we, shouldn't it just be cell phone and like,

work number, you know, like, uh, I don't know, maybe it's, maybe it's different. Do you have a landline in your house? No. Um, but, but these things persist in our culture, right? If you were to signal to someone across a noisy room that they should call you, what hand jester would you use? Would you like, do that? Because with your little finger for the, for the listeners, with your little finger and your thumb stuck out and the rest of your fingers curled, when that is an old style hand set, right? Yeah. Phones these days look like that.

You know, look like just a flat palm. That's very, do you spend a lot of time thinking about these kind of design questions when working on like open source libraries and stuff? Because I personally feel like I don't spend, like, I feel like I have very good taste. Well, everyone does. Everyone does feel that. Yeah, yeah. That's one of those, you know, ask everybody, are you in the top 50% of drivers?

Everyone has a good sense of humor. Everyone can drive very well. Everyone has good taste. Yeah. I do think about these things in places like, you know, when it comes to affordances, you know, in the physical world, we're surrounded by designed items that have various affordances, meaning that, you know, how to use it is, I don't want to use the way intuitive, but the affordances on the object tell you how to manipulate it. It's the same thing in the digital world, the same thing in APIs, right? If you come across an object, a class that has a begin method, well, you probably expect it to have an end method,

and you probably expect those two to delimit an iterable range, right? It would be weird not to. If you come across an object that has a indexing operator, square brackets, then along with that goes the idea that, well, this should be constant time, right? An indexing operator, and it should be random access, right? you would be surprised you would be thrown you would potentially be stepping into a performance pitfall if you came across an object with an indexing operator and that turned out to be quadratic or whatever so so there are plenty of affordances in code that that it's worth being aware of like that

yeah yeah i feel like i think you even said that at the beginning of this portion of the recording aka episode was that it's it's about how do we communicate about this stuff and articulate it because like I said I feel like I have a very good I have very good taste when it comes to design and I you know well while you were just saying what you were saying I was thinking about the title of your talk you know which was borrowed is from the Scott Myers one of his books it's you know easy to use hard to misuse that kind of thing oh yeah and and I have have a bunch of, like, that is the essence of kind of my design philosophy, but then also a bunch of rules that are just like, that I follow, you know, the verb versus nouns, which I first heard

on a CPP cast episode, that if it's doing something, you know, name it a verb. And if it's, uh, retrieving something, you don't need to put get this, you know, just, just name it what it is. It's a noun. And, uh, the mistake of like empty on the earlier containers. It's like, is empty a verb or is it, you know, it's is empty is what you should be naming. Right. it if it's a getting back a predicate in the form of a bullion. And so there's a, that's just one example, but there's a bunch of those that I kind of have stored up just in like a roll of decks of when I'm programming and I come across a thing, like, oh, there's a rule that applies to this situation.

But is there a good way to distill or to articulate? So at this stage in your career, you're a senior engineer, you know the rules. Do people ask you why about those rules? And could you explain why? because that's that's kind of what happened to me after I became a senior engineer after I started managing people after I started doing code reviews and people looked up to me as a as a technical leader people would say okay you know that's a I respect your opinion but can you explain why right and especially this happens when you change jobs because you go into a new job and you're you're a senior person but now you have a whole bunch of new people who don't know you who you're going to start telling them how they should do things in a sense and you're going to it helps if you can explain the why behind it right and I found that like you I had a bunch of rules in my head and I really had to sit down and think why is that a rule where did I learn that who did I learn

that from what was the situation what did it help is that a rule that applies here those kind of questions I don't often get asked why but that's because I sit in a I tower of research um and the last time i kind of worked on a team doing code reviews was a couple years ago now back then when i was on a team of folks i would get asked why and i would say i was still in the process of learning how to articulate well my reasoning a lot of like i remember my very first job which was close to a decade now i remember one time my manager you know this is me like three years into my career and you know i'm watching a lot of your videos online before we ever met you know, I'm watching Sean's videos online.

So I am very opinionated about what's right and what's wrong. And obviously, we have to listen to these folks. They're given toxic conferences. You know, declarative is the way to go. Well, and sometimes that's the reason. Sometimes I say you should do it this way because this is what Jason recommends. And Jason has seen lots of different code bases. I know Jason personally, he has seen lots of different things.

And he has come to this conclusion. So I trust that conclusion. It's not always the most convincing, but there are much worse reasons. to give. But yeah, I remember one time in a meeting, one of the folks was advocating a different way for something. And I was just like, that's, like, obviously, like, inferior. And my manager took me aside afterwards. It was very kind of her to do that and not call me out in the meeting. And she was like, all right, Connor, first of all, I want to say, like, I agree. You're correct. But, one, you got to, like, soften up on the language. No one's going to listen to you

if you're just like outright being like, that's worse. And two, it's in your best interest to learn to articulate, not that something is or isn't inferior or superior, but why? Because I'm sure you've done a lot of self-study and you have your reasons, but other folks aren't watching as many talks and reading as many books. And so it is going to be a tool in your tool belt if you are able to say, you know, for reasons X, Y, and Z, this is why we should prefer this style versus this style. But that's something that, you know, I've been working on my whole career,

Because a lot of times, someone will ask me, you know, not recently, but, you know, when I was on teams. And I'd have to think, like, you know, why is a declarative style better? You know, sure, okay, use cons as much as you can. But it's like, I look at the code. I know it looks more beautiful. It seems more readable. But just saying like, oh, it's more readable isn't actually a convincing reason for most. And I've definitely been in situations where I've given an answer that people were not satisfied with.

And that doesn't necessarily mean that my reason was bad. But usually there's an opportunity where you can be more convincing. And yeah, it's if you're ever thinking in your head, well, like this person's just a lost cause, there's no hope. Like, try to avoid that. Like there's always a way to be more convincing. Like the best salespeople are the best salespeople, not because they give up on the people that, you know, don't want to be sold to.

It's because they can sell to anyone. You know, they are very experienced and, you know, say what you will about, Steve Jobs, but he, they used to talk about him as he had this, like, the aura effect, as you entered his orbit, and you were going to tell him, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then not only would you not tell him, like, give him a piece of your mind, you go away having agreed to like a schedule that was like, and then you meet and you'd be like, what did I just do it? And so the next, yeah, so like the next level of like convincing people, as you put it, is

is allowing people to convince themselves by asking them the questions that, that, that reveal the wise, right? Rather than telling them this is, this is inferior because X, Y, Z and convince them through the power of argument, the next level in part is, okay, let's talk about this. I want to ask you, you know, not even in a way that they realize, but that leads them to the same conclusions inevitably. It's so fun, this is going to be the most random aside ever, But while you were saying that, fortunately or unfortunately, Shima and I watched the most recent season of Love Island because it had become a cultural phenomenon. And it's not the world's best show, which is I feel a bit ashamed to mention it. Or should I say, like redeeming whatever qualities, et cetera.

But anyways, we watched it. And at some point, ooh, what was her name? Taylor was dating a girl. And anyway, I can't remember her name. Clearly I was very involved in this show. And anyways, at some point something had happened. and they were going to have a conversation about it kind of a little bit awkward

and Shima and I are watching and the girl will call her Carly even though that's not her name was Carly says well how do you think how do you think I would have felt in that situation or so like basically instead of like calling him out for it asked him to explain how she might feel in this situation and like ended up at the exact same point

they would have ended up if she had just called him out for it and Shima and I were both like oh that was that was like some emotional kung fu right there like she didn't say anything. She was like, well, yeah, yeah, I guess, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, that was a, that was a, that was a class, a class in, like, how to convince someone or, like, whatever. And anyways, that's basically what you were saying is ask the questions that get them to realize what you want them to realize. Right. That's probably easier said than done, though.

Ava and I, we are currently watching, so this is the thing we do. This is the thing I do. I never watch TV shows until way, way after the fact. But we are watching. Ted Lassow. Oh, fantastic show. That is a great, that is a masterclass again in sort of emotional intelligence. How far are you in? We're part way through season two. Well, I don't want to, I don't want to ruin anything. One of my favorite scenes is in a pub with, uh, with, uh, is there, is there a really great scene in a pub? I don't want to, I don't want to give anything away for you to indicate that, well, there's the scene with playing darts. Yes, okay. I didn't want to say the word darts? Because then as soon as they

started playing darts at some point, it might indicate to you that, although, spoiler alert for people that haven't watched Ted Lasso. People listening and totally getting a Ted Lasso spoiled. You know, Rupert, guys have underestimated me my entire life. And for years, I never

understood why. I used to really bother me. But then one day, I was driving my little boy at a school, and I saw this quote by Walt Whitman, who was painted on the wall there, it said, be curious, not judgmental. I like that. So I get back in my car and I'm driving to work.

And all of a sudden, it hits me. All them fellas that used to belittle me, not a single one of them were curious. You know, they thought they had everything all figured out, and so they judged everything, and they judged everyone. And I realized that they're underestimated me. Who I was had nothing to do with it. Because if they were curious, they would ask questions. You know?

Questions like, have you played a lot of darts, Ted? Which I would have answered, yes, sir. Every Sunday afternoon had a sports bar with my father from age 10 to all 16 when he passed away. Barbecue sauce. but that is one of my favorite that's such a great great so many great scenes from the show there are so many good scenes i mean that that scene is great that scenes really feel good but there are so many things

like he's just he's such a great coach even though he knows well he knows some about football but he comes it comes into it knowing not much about football. And that's, and for for folks that need to be convinced, it's a show purportedly about football, but it's not about football folks. If you don't like sports shows, this isn't a sports show. And my parents like the show and my mother, uh, well, maybe she likes sports, but I don't think she does. But she loves the show because it's not really anything to do with football. Football is the backdrop of which, uh, a drama, you know, takes place or comedy drama. Anyways, you were going to say something with Ted Lasso. You know, to echo what you said about Love Island, another example of

of a show that just has moments of great insight. Yeah, it's definitely, I'm pretty sure I cried multiple times during that show. And that's actually not that rare. I mean, I'll cry at a Star Wars show, you know. I'll cry at a lot of stuff, though. I love crying at movies. I love crying at shows, you know, because I just, I like a well-crafted. Movies and shows should be able to make you feel,

all the emotions, right? I lived in LA for like 10 years plus, and I worked with a bunch of people who came from the movies, and I learned a ton about movies. It's not that I'm an expert or a movie buff it particularly, but I've learned enough to know that, you know, it's a great medium. Yeah, it is, there are certain scenes that I will go back, and that the, the dart scene in Ted Lasso is one of them, but, like, I probably have, like, 50 or 100 scenes across movies and TV shows that I just think are they just hits you in the fields and there's a ton from at one point the newsroom

was my favorite show with I actually can't remember his name the guy from Dumb and Dumber, not Jim Carrey, but Jeff something maybe Yes and that show for its time at least and also it's it's by the guy I think that wrote was it

Andrew Sorkin that wrote it? It might have been I think I think it was the same guy behind Molly's game and the social network and stuff. Anyways, it has a bunch of scenes as well where it's like these, you know, speeches and stuff like that or monologues that are kind of, whether it's someone throwing darts or something's happened while the monologues going on. And that's why I love Andor.

Andor, Shima loved season two. She wasn't a big fan of season one, but she loved season two. It took me like two months to get her to watch it. And I think I got her to agree because I agreed to something else. And then as soon as we were two episodes in, she was like, when can we watch Andor again? And how's the AFI top 100 going? Oh, yeah, we haven't, we still have the spreadsheet. I'll see if I can pull it up quickly in the last few minutes.

We definitely have slowly been making our way through it. There it is. AFI. We have across the two different lists, because there was a 98 and a 2007. It says we have 99 left. So, but I think there's like 130 videos across the. those two lists. So I know,

I don't know if Charite Sapphire is on there. I know you watch Characet Sofire I recommend it. I know you didn't take to it that well, but... Yeah, we weren't the biggest fans of that one. It's very British, I could see that. Did you watch The Sting yet? I don't know if the Sting is on that list, but that's a great movie. No, I think there's a, our side list of movies that you recommended that aren't on it.

And was the Sting the one that was the British equivalent of Casablanca, or it was the British equivalent of something? Yeah, the British equivalent of Casablanca is Brief Encounter Brief Encounter, yes, that's on our list as well And yeah, I've pulled it up And the last two that we watched We're both in March

And have you, in fact, have you seen Casablanca? I have not. That should be on your list too. I also haven't seen this is probably going to Well, it upset, I don't know, maybe most of our listeners haven't seen it either. I haven't seen any of the godfathers Which, Shima loves those.

And they're okay. I need to watch. But we watched a Dr. Strange Love. Oh, yeah. Which, if I recall, is like the one that's super old. 1963, I believe. Yeah, 64 is what the spreadsheet says. Yeah, Peter Sellers plays multiple parts.

Yeah, she may give it a 10. I gave it a 4. You should watch Failsafe, which is basically a similar plot. came out I mean it came out the same year within I think a couple of months incredibly

but fail safe Sydney Lamet directs great movie not a comedy we will add it to our list sting brief encounter fail safe and a stellar cast

I mean Henry Fonda Walter Mathau a young Larry Hagman isn't it ooh that's rough I've never heard of any of those people okay you need to watch more old movies

seriously Henry Fonda, he's in 12 Angry Men. I know we've seen that one. He's your number eight. That's him, the main guy. Okay, okay. I was going to say, honestly, I remember them all sitting around a table. I did not know which number was which guy.

I can remember their personalities a little bit. There was the one guy that was sweating all the time. Right. But yeah. And then it says the most recent one we've watched was a movie from 1933 called Duck Soup. Oh, yeah. Marks Brothers, right? I think.

I'll take your, it says the director was Leo McCarrie. and it was Shima gave it a one I gave it a negative one the reason we watched it was because we were I think we only had like an hour and a half

and so we ranked the movies by length and this was the shortest at like 65 minutes or something but I'm pretty sure it was 1933 so I don't think there was any audio but it was kind of this like

it seemed like there might have been I can't remember but it was like who's the guy Charlie Chaplin it seemed like kind of Charlie Chaplin Okay. Or like, what's the British guy, Mr. Bean?

Oh, okay. Yeah. It had some kind of like crazy humor. And I think it was the first of its kind, but it was way past or over our heads. And we were just like, what is this? But yes, we're making our way through. We've been very busy over the last couple months. Yeah, I know that summer gets busy for sure.

Yeah. Anyways, before we wind out, any final wrap-ups of the, software. We've got, we love Island, Ted Lassow, other stuff. We've gone on a couple of tangents. Well, I, so I have a, I have a teaser for you. I am, you may remember back in 2020, I think I told you about this talk. I submitted a talk to C++ now that was called, what is the name of this talk? Yes, I do recall this. You know about that one. That talk has evolved, and I am giving a talk, the evolution of that talk at the Denver meetup this Thursday. So, so too late for our listeners, but just to let you know, since you asked.

I see. Is this a hybrid still, or is it just in person? It's hybrid, yeah. Okay. The name of the talk, the, so I don't want to dive into the use mention distinction here. But the talk is now called Plato, McGreet, Sartre, Carroll, software design with the masters. Should I, should I be familiar with all those names? Plato?

I mean, Plato, definitely. Magritte, René Magritte, Belgian artist from the mid-20th century, surrealist. That's over my head. Sassine Apaisnepepep, you may have heard. That's him. Sartre, existentialist philosopher, again from the mid-20th century, Jean-Paul Sartre, author of Being in Nothingness. Lewis Carroll, you've heard of Lewis Carroll.

I've heard of Lewis Carroll. I've got one of his books on my shelf, so... The annotated Alice, I'm betting. Thanks to you. I still have not read. I mean, every Christmas I tell myself, this is going to be the Christmas. I don't know why I have to read it at Christmas. I just feel like I'll have more time during Christmas.

And then it never ends up happening. But it will at some point. All right. Okay. This has been a blast. Yeah. Good to catch up. Be sure to check these show notes, either in your podcast app or at ADSP thepodcast.com

For links to anything we mentioned in today's episode, as well as a link to a get-up discussion where you can leave thoughts, comments, and questions. Thanks for listening. We hope you enjoyed and have a great day. I am the anti-brace.