Algorithms + Data Structures = Programs - Episode 266: Holiday Special 🎄 CppCon, NDC Toronto, C++Now, Teletext, Bamboozle & More!

Episode Date: December 26, 2025

In this episode, Conor and Ben chat about CppCon, NDC Toronto, C++Now, Teletext, Bamboozle & more!Link to Episode 266 on WebsiteDiscuss this episode, leave a comment, or ask a question (on GitHub)SocialsADSP: The Podcast: TwitterConor Hoekstra: LinkTree / BioBen Deane: Twitter | BlueSkyShow NotesDate Recorded: 2025-12-22Date Released: 2025-12-26Bamboozle!Bamboozle! QuizCeefaxTeletextNDC TorontoC++NowCppCon 2025 ScheduleAPI Structure and Technique: Learnings from Code Review - Ben Deane - CppCon 2025Engineers Are Users Too: A Case Study in Design Thinking for Infrastructure - Grace AlwanImplementing Your Own C++ Atomics - Ben Saks - CppCon 2025GROOVAdvent of Code 2025Intro Song InfoMiss You by Sarah Jansen https://soundcloud.com/sarahjansenmusicCreative Commons — Attribution 3.0 Unported — CC BY 3.0Free Download / Stream: http://bit.ly/l-miss-youMusic promoted by Audio Library https://youtu.be/iYYxnasvfx8

If you're a conference organizer, do you want to pitch that, though? Because if I'm a employer... Oh, for sure. Doesn't mean you're going to switch companies? So that's the worry, I think, is that conference organizer doesn't want to say that because it sounds like, oh, we're going to send you to a conference and then in a year you're not going to be at our company anymore. No, they absolutely want to say that, I think.

All right, I'm a conference organizer. Sell me on why this should be the tagline. Yeah, a lot of it came out of me doing code reviews, my team. helping folks on my team, looking at the kind of code that we write and trying to raise the level of abstraction there. So, you know, working down at the embedded layer, tons of things like bit twiddling, you know, shifting things into the right place, so they'll be in the right field of the register, lots of things like that, that just, sure, you can, you can do it, but we haven't really come a long way in that area above what see could do in 1972. so the thing.

Welcome to ADSP, the podcast, episode 26, recorded on December 22nd, 2025. My name is Connor, and today with my co-host, Ben, we record our holiday special number five. In this episode, we chat about CPPCon, NDC Toronto, C++ now, teletext, bamboozle, and more. Anyways, like I said earlier, we put the cart in front of the horse. This is technically our happy holidays, you know, Christmas episode. Last episode of the year, this will drop on December 26th Boxing Day for some folks in the world. I assume not every country has Boxing Day.

Does Canada have Boxing Day as well? We definitely have Boxing Day, yes. I don't typically, and for those that are not familiar with Boxing Day, it is, I have no idea why it's called Boxing Day, but it is the day after Christmas where there are massive sales across, I don't know, corporations and businesses, so you can go and get heavily discounted items. And I rarely ever go to stores on Boxing Day because it is similar to Black Friday and it's just pandemonium. Yeah, I would have to say Boxing Day is. more normally associated in the UK with just eating leftovers. Many families go out for a walk on boxing day to try and get over the huge amount of food intake. Yeah.

But yes, the etymology, I think, is not clear. So there's the idea. Some people say it's when you put your Christmas gifts back in their boxes, but that seems a bit weak. Another idea is that it's when you give your, historically, you give your household staff their Christmas boxes. So that's traditionally, I think, still the day when you might tip your delivery people or, you know, you give your gardener a tip or you give your rubbish man a tip. I see. Something like that. But all of that is at this point in

the modern era, fairly archaic. Right. We, I mean, we have, I mean, technically we have a garbage I think they call them sanitation engineers but those are employed by the city I was struggling to think of the right term

yeah yeah well I mean I mean garbage men is like unofficially or garbage person but I mean on paper they're official title but they're paid by like tax

tax dollars and like we don't have an official relationship I've never met any of the we see the trouble by and we do not have a gardener or any of those other things but

anyways so anyways happy holidays happy holidays to you as well ben and family and friends um have you been i mean it's been we were talking about this before we started recording it's been like a few months it's been some months yeah either september or august since we've chatted which means that i mean if you have gone to cppcon oh yeah i did i did attend cppcon in september it was months ago uh but we haven't talked about that but i'm thinking you you must have i mean obviously i've been at a couple conferences

but you must have been to at least CPP cons since then. Anyways, how is that? And how have things been in general? Things have been great. Things have been, you know, I've been same old, same old, quietly working. Attending CPPON, like you say, that was a lot of fun. That's right here on my doorstep, so I don't have to travel. This year I didn't even, so some years previously when I've given talks, and I almost,

I very often give a talk. And in previous years, when I've done that, I have got a hotel room, even though it's about 35, 40 minutes from me. half an hour in early morning traffic, I guess. It's good. This year I didn't get a hotel room because normally I would get a hotel room because the conference, if I'm a speaker, the conference would pay for my hotel or my company would.

But this year, I'd, you know, Ava asked me to stay at home. And it was kind of nice, you know, because staying in the hotel room while it's good for the hallway track, it's good for those late nights in the hotel bar talking to folks, I would I never get good sleep in hotel rooms yeah so it was good to come back home and you know that was that worked well and cheaper yeah yeah I mean it's a I have always for the CPP North conference I was a seven minute city bike away from right the place so I always stayed at home although but now she and I recently moved and at least with traffic in the morning if we if I drove down, it would be potentially north of an hour. Right. So you're a little way outside the city now? Yeah, we're, I mean, we're still technically in Toronto proper, but just with traffic.

I mean, I think at nighttime, it's probably 25 minutes. But yeah, because everyone's going downtown. So anyways, I don't, I know, I mean, actually, I'm not sure if you've heard the news, but CPP North is no longer CPP North. They merged with the NDC conference circuit. Okay. Okay. Now it is NDC Toronto. I see. So Mike messaged me saying that NDC, saying about NDC Toronto, he didn't make it clear that that was what CP North had become. Yeah. But I can say that that conference clashes exactly with C++ now. It's the very same week.

I haven't actually looked at the dates. Oh, there we go. So I Google NDC. And it's 5th to the 8th of May, which immediately I did think, well, you already said C++ now, but usually it's the first week of May. And it typically always collides with the weekend of a 10K race in Toronto that I like. Yeah. Well, C++ now, the last couple of years has been that earlier week, that straddling week between April and May. But it seems that this year or next year is going to go back to that first full week or second week. of May, which it always used to clash with Mother's Day as well. That's why people would

leave early because that weekend of Mother's Day would be the closing weekend. Yeah, I know that because the 10K race that I like, it's called the Sporting Life 10K, and I like it because it's like the most downhill 10K race that I've ever run. So it gives you a little boost. It's always on Mother's Day. Right. Okay. Which is, I mean, my mom lives a the country so it's not a big deal but I know a lot of one of the guys in my run club you know he's got a partner and two kids and he's always talking about how he's got to clear it with the the wife that you know on Mother's Day he can go out and run this race and luckily it's at like 7 a.m. or something so you can be done the race and back home by 839 if you have

to make breakfast or whatever but anyways so I mean I guess people are going to have to I mean you could submit to both and if you get accepted, but I'm trying to check is the CFP call for papers. It doesn't scream to me that the call for papers for C++ now is open. I know for NDC Toronto, it's open until the end of December. So if you're listening to this, before the 2026 new year, you can be one of the first ever to speak at a technically new conference, but really it's the fifth CPP North, but they're going under the title. So I think it's a

parts, they'll have a C++ track but it'll, NDC in general is like a polyglot crop. I think the N at one point stood for dot net. So there's a lot of C sharp and F sharp. Oh, interesting. Depending on the addition, like NDC Oslo is more of a systems

program, or not systems, sorry, I'm thinking NDC Tech Town, the one that's outside of Oslo. That's more of like a systems programming C C++ course or a conference, whereas other ones, yeah, like I said, depending. Anyway, so I guess people will have to choose if they are in the C++ community. Right. So the call for papers is till end of the year, end of December.

That's interesting. For NDC Toronto, yeah. For C++ now, it doesn't look to be... No, it hasn't been opening until January. There was always a question, a sort of dilemma of do you open the call for papers before Christmas, and when do you close it? Because, you know, this time, really the last month of the year, so many people are traveling, so many people are, maybe even not in the right frame of mind to put together a conference proposal. I wonder how the proposals are going to shake out in

NDC. And I think for that reason, you know, CIPA now switch to opening the call for papers after Christmas. Yeah, I would agree that having it after the beginning of the New Year is a better idea because in terms of planning, you know, even the talks you want to give, like, I don't know, it's kind of like New Year's resolutions. Like, what, what do I want the roadmap to be for 26? That being said, they already have three, six, nine, 11 speakers, including Jason Turner and Kate Gregory and also Richard Campbell. He's very closely tied. He's one of the co-hosts of Dotnet Rocks, one of the older, longer running podcast. I'm not an active listener of Dotnet Rocks because I don't do dotnet programming, but I've listened to a few episodes and it's, they're very entertaining to listen to.

So anyways, they've already got a number of speakers. Are they expecting how many, you maybe don't know the answer, but what would you say is regarding the number of people they're expecting at the conference? CPP North was small but growing, I think, but it was still pretty small these last few years. So is NDC looking to boost that number? I would imagine so, but that is just complete speculation on my part. I have, I mean, I did, or I messaged Mike the other day, but he didn't mention anything about Mike Dom, the previous organizer of CPP North, but he didn't mention anything about their plans.

I know that it's being held at like a new location, so the first two years, CPP North was held at the King Edward Hotel, I believe it was called, which is a very fancy hotel that costs a lot of money and then I think for financial reasons that was it the omni this last year is that so I think the Omni the Omni is the same as the King Aubur I think Omni is the hotel brand and King Edward is the name of that specific hotel and then the last two years I wasn't there this year but the year before and I think it was the same location it was hosted by Microsoft that's right which was okay it was a little tricky to get into because it's, you know, a corporate building where you need badges and stuff.

And I think now I've seen that it's being hosted at the Westin, which is a hotel that, you know, similar to the King Edward will have like conference spaces. But it's still downtown Toronto then? I'm assuming. Yes. Yes. The Westin is, if you're familiar with Toronto, which I'm sure, I don't know, 5% of our listeners are, is the hotel that sits on top of the Jack Layton ferry terminal that goes to Toronto Island. So if you've ever taken the ferry to Toronto Island, it's the hotel that literally sits right next to that. So it's right on the waterfront.

And they actually have a restaurant at the top that at one point was called Talu or Tulu, which is kind of a, it doesn't spin. Like the restaurant at the top of the CN Tower is called 360 because it spins. But the restaurant that's at the top of the west in, it doesn't spin, but depending on where you sit, it kind of looks out at different parts of the city. so um anyways anyway i should bring uh someone that actually knows more about the actual i'm just making stuff up about uh but i would imagine so i think in the last few years it was 200 250 people on average across the four years so i would imagine that nDC you know they're a bigger conference

brand so they're going to attract you know speakers in different communities outside of c++ so yeah and i'm not surprised that jason is going it makes sense that he would at least Tuesday. He hasn't been going to C++ now for a couple of years because it's too small of a conference to justify the outlay. And, you know, as a trainer, he needs to go to conferences where he can get work. Yeah. C++ now is, you know, there are influential people who go to C++ now

and you go back to their companies and you could say, let's get people in to do training. I think that has happened. for folks in the past, but these days, it's more bang for his buck to go to another conference. And correct me if I'm wrong, because I only went in 2019, and I don't even recall if they covered travel and accommodations, but I'm pretty sure at least today they don't. For volunteers only, I think.

Yeah, which also obviously affects, you know, if you're a trainer. Like, I always think about, like, you know, there's a part of me that would love to do, like, training but the uh the what do you call it like career or day to day like it affects your your desire to want to go to a conference like one you're stopping doing training so you're the income that you're collecting from that like disappears and on top of that you potentially are paying you have an expenditure yeah so it's like a double whammy it's like going to university versus working right like not only are you not getting paid you're paying to go to school and so obviously you know not just speaking for jason but trainers and

consultants in general. It's a huge part of the calculation of, am I going to go to conference X and basically like lose the income that I'm making plus also have to be spending. And so for certain conferences that are covering your accommodations and travel, obviously that's going to make it twice as attractive as potentially a competing conference. And I think NDC does, once again, should bring someone on from NDC. But the NDC conferences that I've been to in the past do cover accommodations and travel so anyways uh i guess seeing as we're talking about conferences CPP con you said it was great uh I'm not sure if you can recall that far back uh yeah how was it um it was really good I can recall some of the talks uh there was a new track this

year I'm going to get the name wrong but it's something like career and business track okay um and um the opening session of the opening talk of that track, I'm going to look at it on different tabs so that I can get it right. I thought it was a really interesting talk by, okay, I believe it was called Engineers or Users 2.

By Grace Allwin. I thought that was a really interesting talk. A case study and design thinking for infrastructure. And so what's the high level kind of thesis of the talk? Grace works at Bloomberg. She is, or at least was at the time of the talk. Maybe she's advanced now.

She's a software engineer in the Technology Infrastructure. And the talk was about UX for infrastructure, you know, a case study and design thinking for infrastructure. So engineers are users too. So she works on low level kind of infrastructural systems, powering computer at scale for the various teams. Bloomberg, and her background's in UX and HCI.

And so the talk was kind of really interesting how she presented prototyping, user interviews, things like that for the betterment of the UX, the engineering UX.

Interesting. It does sound like a neat talk. I looked it up and it is, unfortunately, not online yet. But at some point it will be. I will leave a stale link. We're not stale? That's the wrong word. Unlinked link. Stale is, I guess, broken.

A placeholder, yes. Yeah, yeah. There were quite a few talks that were good. I'm just looking through some of the talks to the ones I remember. Ben Sacks gave a great talk about implementing your own Atomics, which kind of

meshed with my talk in part because working on bare metal embedded I have a very limited form of atomics, certainly not the full stood atomic interface. You know, the microcontroller I work with can do atomic exchange, but not much more. And so that's something that I've done effectively implementing atomics or implementing, yeah, implementing the same interfaces to the atomic, but making sure that it works well for the underlying microcontroller.

Interesting. That was Ben Sacks, he said. Ben Sacks, S-A-K-S. Okay. And then I'm still waiting for Michael Case's talk, my colleague Michael. He gave a great talk. Now, I have to look it up because it's not on the page. I'm looking at.

Michael Case, Lightning Talks. Groove, asynchronous handling of special function registers? Yes. So Groove is. Our library, like the title says, for asynchronous handling of special function registers. So registers in the embedded sense, meaning not processor registers, but memory locations that have special semantics to the hardware. You know, memory mapped I.O. is a typical use case. And Groove sits on top of our senders and receivers library.

And so it presents the... same interface whether your register is indeed memory mapped and it's just a plain old read or write or your register could be accessed across a network as it were across a network on chip or whatever you might have but some kind of asynchronous mechanism for access right so groove presents the same interface i.e a senders based interface for both of those situations and in the case of With the memory wrapped I.O., of course, it collapses down to a single read or write. And in the case of the true asynchronous access, then you get all of the things that come out of the box with sends and receivers like error channel and cancellation and things like that. So that's what Michael's talk is about, that interface on top of senders and receivers.

Is this open source out of Intel? Yes. Interesting. Yes, it's one of our open source libraries. Groove stands for generic register operation optimizer 5, if you must look. Because it just happened that the internal version was on version 4, so when we were thinking up an acronym, he went with Groove. Very interesting.

I mean, I googled Groove, GR, O, V, and GitHub, and it's the third top result, at least for me. The first one is Facebook researches groove, which is spelt the identical way. Although it's an archived repo and has less stars than the Intel repo. I mean, admittedly, the Facebook one has 24 stars and the Intel one has 43, so it's not like one's order of magnitudes more. But interesting that the Facebook one comes up first, even though it's archived and has less stars. but I will link the Intel one for folks that are interested. And I will also link, like I said, all the links, even if the talks aren't out, will be in the show notes.

And I never say this. I assume people just go to the website. Don't ever go to the episode in your podcast player because I do not retrospectively go back and update the links there. I only go up and go and update the links in the website show notes because I can do that all from a single. IDE versus the podcast player. You have to go to a bunch of different website pages.

Okay, so Michael Case. I mean, and you actually haven't seen that talk, you said. I mean, I saw it in person, but it's not yet available online. Oh, okay, okay. And I assume CBPCon is doing the thing where they slowly release, you know, once a week ago. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. They're trying to pander to the algorithm.

Hander to the algorithm. So that was a great talk. I gave a talk on, and now I'm forgetting the name of the talk, but it was about bringing abstraction to the really low level. We have another library, we have a standard extensions library, which is kind of like, I think of it as the socially acceptable way to name your Utils folder. It's like everyone has this collection of things which don't really fit anywhere else and they call utilities or Utils. What you do is you call them standard extensions. You make them an open source library, and now you have some respectability.

But, yeah, a lot of it came out of me doing code reviews for my team, helping folks on my team, looking at the kind of code that we write and trying to raise the level of abstraction there. So, you know, working down at the embedded layer, tons of things like bit twiddling, you know, shifting things into the right place. so they'll be in the right field of the register lots of things like that that just sure you can you can do it but we haven't

really come a long way in that area above what see could do in 1972 sort of thing and in particular integral promotions are very bad any time you have an operation on a number it's going to almost certainly become an int, right? Because, or at least an unsigned it, because a lot of these things are, you know, the lingua franco data type is the uint 32. Quite often you're working with uint 16s or you in 8s. You're working at unsigned small integral values,

which you're shifting and adding and oaring around, and every time you do something like that, integral promotion just bites you, right? And so an example here is one of the things you typically see is expressions involving shifts and masks and oars and hands. And you see them full of just cruft of casts because people are, you know, making, trying to protect themselves against integral promotions, which is, which is all very good. You have to do that, but it just, it makes the code horrible to read. you end up with, you know, not everyone wants to reason about every time

and maybe some people don't know and other people just want to take out the cognitive load. So you end up with casts on sub-expressions of sub-expression sort of thing. You know, even with a simple line, a single line of code which should be simple, which is encraftified by all the casts. For example.

So, you know, when I came to code like this, I thought, let's just make abstractions. You know, one-line function calls, one-line function templates are effectively free, right? There's no runtime cost here. The compiler's going to inline that 100% of the time. Right. It's going to give you back the correct type that you asked for. You know, so you can say things like, give me a bit mask. and I want it to be, yeah, so you're in 16T,

and I wanted between these two bits, right? Why reinvent that every time I write that out longhand in code where you can just ask for exactly what you want for exactly the same cost? It's that kind of thing. That's a very small example. Yeah, that reminds me of the Louis Dion talks

and a handful of other folks that give these metaprogramming talks and you see like the standard ease version of these functions that have just a bigillion casts and decal types. And you understand that that's like the correct, you know, but you see that code and you're just like, oh, my goodness. So yeah, I guess you're pitching.

If there's a way that you can insert a layer of abstraction and hide that stuff, why not do that instead of? Right, right. And in that case of a bit mask, you know, there are pitfalls like, so typically an embedded, in data sheets you find you find the bits in a register or the fields

inside a register because we're dealing with things at the sub-word level at the sub-byte level, right? We're dealing with individual bits. And the fields are usually specified as inclusive. So it'll say least significant bit, most significant bit, inclusive range, right? Not like a

half-open range, but an inclusive range. And so if you write code that computes bit masks naively, you can run into things like, well, accidentally shifting the value by its width, which is undefined behavior, right? You want to include that top bit. So if you do it naively by shifting one plus the bit and then minus one to get all of the bits set below, well, now you've shifted potentially by the bit width of the type. Right. Right. Right. things like that. And of course, you know, experienced programmers know that kind of thing,

but it's another thing which just complicates call sites or complicates code. You might as well just package it up in the abstraction. So yeah, so that you don't have to think about it. Yeah. Interesting. And I looked it up because I've got the full schedule. You gave, it seems two talks. And I'm guessing that this one corresponds to the title API structure and technique colon learnings from code review. Yes, that's the one. is correct and the other one because i'm sure the listener's thinking now wait there's two

was the evolution of a logging library yes that was a that was not recorded that was an open content session okay um which is why you should go to the conferences folks uh i was literally talking to the last conference i was at the technical director that i my one of my evolving views is that actually in the age of remote work and you distributed teams et cetera et cetera that like conferences are actually even more important than they were before because, you know, I don't, I don't have the water cooler chats, you know? Like, my wife jokes all the time. Oh, you got so many podcasts, blah, blah, blah.

Isn't really necessary? And I was like, well, I mean, the podcast kind of came out of living, you know, pandemic times and like wanting to talk to people. Yeah. I mean, we record these conversations, but really, you know, they would happen if we wouldn't record them. It's an excuse to call up a friend and chat for an hour. People don't probably know that, but we actually used to,

not super frequently, but, you know, we try and do it a couple times a year. we would just hop on a call and just, you know, because conferences weren't happening. And, you know, the virtual ones, I want to say, were they better than nothing? Yes. But also, too, they were like so exhausting in a way than like, you know, in person conferences are exhausting. But virtual conferences, especially if you're speaking, just it is so much better to give a talk in real life in person where when you're done. Yeah. And it doesn't go to a black screen and you're just like by yourself in a quiet.

room it is it is so much better anyways it's just that uh yeah conferences are also you know probably the number one thing you can do for your career is to go to a conference i think certainly for for most people if you're a conference organizer do you want to pitch that though because if i'm a employer well because some people might hear is great for your career doesn't mean you're going to switch companies. So that's the worry, I think, is that conference organizer doesn't want to say that because it sounds like, oh, we're going to send you to a conference and then in a year you're not going to be at our company anymore.

No, they absolutely want to say that, I think. All right, I'm a conference organizer. Sell me on why this should be the tagline. Well, you're conflating two things. Like, going to a conference to further your career doesn't mean necessarily changing companies. It means broadening your horizon. It means taking back what you learn to your current company so that you can improve, you know, improve everything, improve the way your team works, improve the things you think about. That is the course of my career, you know, certainly in the

sort of mid-teens. And separately, it is a good company's goal to keep you at that company. and you know so if if you want to go to conferences and the company won't send you because it thinks that by doing so you would leave the company already has problems keeping you right and that's a great point uh yeah i mean it's true i mean we first met uh i mean i knew who you were before we met because you had a bunch of talks online but we first met at c++ now and bryce and i first met at a c plus plus meet up in the bay area so yeah it is i mean i completely agree. But I had talked to a conference organizer once and said something basically along the lines of this. Like there's nothing better that you can do from like a career. I don't like the word

networking because a lot of times it's not like I walk into a room and it's like, I'm ready to network. You know, it's like that's not what it is. But it's like you have conversations, your idea sharing. And, you know, I don't, I'm never actively thinking like now is the time to go and network. I just like you're around other passionate, excited people that want to share their. things that they're passionate about and excited about and it's just like it's just an amazing experience and yes and you're you're sharing your ideas and in turn you're learning so much I learned my goodness the when I first went to CPP now in 2014 yeah and it was the first conference I'd been to and I was coming from you know I was an

experienced game industry C++ engineer but the you know the way my eyes were opened by C++ plus now is unbelievable I learned so many things that that first year that second year I went I was it was just like drinking from a firehouse yeah yeah yeah it is uh thinking about yeah the phase of your career where you still have like you don't know how much you don't know like now I know how much I don't know and every day that goes by I know I learn more you know that your quote or not your quote but I heard it from you you know, the larger your island of knowledge, the longer your shore of ignorance, I'm at the part now, the phase of whatever my career where my island of knowledge is quite

large, so I'm not, you know, but there's a point where you don't even realize how much you don't know, and it is intoxicating for someone that like myself and you and others, I assume, that like to learn, that like to, you know, I've heard another quote that a new perspective increases your IQ by 30 points, is, you know, plus or minus, you know, you can disagree with the, whatever IQ, but in general, just like learning a new paradigm program language-wise to solve a type of problem, it is intoxicating. And now like that, like when you're drinking from that fire hose at that phase of your career, we don't really get to do that anymore. Like, it is less often that you're going to go and like talk after talk after talk. You're getting

like a new idea and a new thing. It still happens, just not at that rate. But yeah, the first time I attended was 2019. And yeah, it is a, yeah, thinking about it. Doesn't give me a sense of, like, jealous of my younger self, but just like, it is a very amazing experience to be at that phase of your career where there's just so much that you don't know. And basically every talk you watch, you're coming away with, like, some new way to think about solving a problem. Yeah. I had never practiced generic programming. I was, the code bases I was working in back in early, early teens, they were still firmly with the foot in the early 2000s object-oriented mold, right?

So they were certain, and they were, you know, to some extent, if you work at a company where there are lots of people who have been there a long time and where the average tenure is high, then it tends to be the case that you are sheltered from outside influences. You know, you've got a code base that might be 10, 15, maybe even 20 plus years old. there are patents in there which are repeated, tried, tested, but at some point, once you've learned everything you have to learn from that code base, there isn't going to be any new stuff going in there. There isn't going to be these kind of revelatory things. So you need to make an effort to stretch your view. So when I came to Aspern in 2014, I had never heard of

Alex Steppenoff. I had never heard of generic programming. I didn't know EOP. And I learned all about those things. Also, there were plenty of like just techniques in the code, which a couple of one or two of which I had still began to notice and I didn't have words for, right? And if you don't have, if you don't know what something is called, then you can't search for it effectively. Right. So one, you can, you know, I had, I had, I had, independent. discovered type erasure, but I had no idea to call it type erasure. Right, right. And so I wasn't able to link it to anything else until I came to Aspen and talk to other

folks. And I described this pattern. I'm like, and you know, I saw this pattern in the code and I think it might be useful. And it does this thing and they're like, sounds like type erasure. You know, they really knew that. And this was like a light bulb moment for me. Yeah. Yeah, I can think of several moments like that.

Yeah, that it's, whether it's an algorithm name or a technique or even like an individual. Like I remember talking to David's ankle at the C++ now. That was the first conference I went to. And I was just, I was in the middle of like falling in love with Haskell. And I was just like, man, like, do people know about Haskell? Like, why are we doing the C++ thing? Like, you know, the lambda quote unquote syntax is so much better. You know, like I think people, if people take a look, they'll really like what they see.

Anyways, and David Sankle, at the time, his favorite language, he said wasn't even Haskell. He's like, you should check out Egg Da. Egg does even better than Haskell. And then I can't remember if it was you or David that said, have you heard of Bartaj Maluski? Because I was thinking, like, you know, I feel like if people take a look at this language, like, well, C++ is no one's going to want to do it anymore. And then he's like, well, do you know who Bartaj Maluski? I've never heard that name. And which is funny now because, you know, I've covered his book and, you know, I've chatted with him in person at conference.

and had him speak at meetups that I've run. But at that time, like you said, you'd never heard of Stepanov. And, like, now, to think of a time where you hadn't heard of Stepanov, like, where you are now in your career. It's almost comical to think of that time. But anyways, David's point, I think it was David. He's like, oh, yeah, like, Bartaj basically found functional programming and was, like, you know, basically, like, touched by the hand of God and became, like, a prophet for spreading

the functional program. and for a number of years was giving basically functional programming talks in C++ template metaprogramming. So there's a bunch of talks that you can find online from C++ now where every year he was showing some new technique that you could do at compile time in C++. So now... Or go ahead.

I have a segue which is that this year Michael Case was learning Haskell and doing advent of code. In Haskell? All right. So here we go. Avin of Code, folks. All right. So Ben and I recorded what you are about to listen to, if you want to, before what you just

finished listening to. So I ended up taking our recording, cutting it in half, and then doing a one rotate, aka swapping the order. Because I figured the conference slash C++ talk would be a little bit more interesting. What you're about to listen to is us. or Ben, explaining teletext and the bamboozle quiz, and then us taking a bamboosal quiz. Happy holidays, folks.

So teletext was a system before the internet when TV was analog. So it's defunct now. I forget when the last teletext was broadcast, but everything now is digital TV. And so we don't need it anymore. We have other things. But basically, if you remember back to, like, the BBC Micro, the BBC Micro had, well, I'm asking you to remember, but maybe you don't remember exactly, but somebody will, had a Mode 7 display, had a display of 40 columns by 25 lines of characters. It turns out you can fit that page into the analog TV signal in the vertical blank.

Right, so in the analog TV signal, there's a bit of downtime the signal between frames. It's called the vertical blank. And there's just enough space there to fit some effectively digital information, a 40 by 25 screen of text and, you know, graphical characters made from text, right? So like in the old style of box drawing characters and things like that. And that's what teletext was. So on every channel in the TV signal, in the analog TV signal, you put these pages in the vertical blanks and you cycle them, right?

So the way it worked was that every page had a three-digit index. And so every TV had a text mode where you could switch TV into a mode which would decode this information. and display, instead of the regular TV signal, display the teletext signal. And then you would type in the page number, and 100 was kind of like the default, the index page, right? So you hit the text button, and it shows page 100. And then you type in, I don't know,

300 for sports news or 500 for weather or whatever it might be. There were, you know, on the hundreds were the main indices, and on the tens were the sort of subindices often. and it was just a index directory of all kinds of useful information, like weather, sports, travel information, and one of them on Channel 4 that my sister and I used to play as teenagers was the Fun and Game section. I think it was page 470, if I remember right?

I'm sure there's a few listeners nodding their heads right now. Yeah, and it was 10 pages of what was called Fun and Games, and one of them was a multi-choice quiz. called bamboozle and because normally so in the early days of teletext that's well I don't sure if that's early but in the early 80s right when you type in the page number of course you might have to wait a little while for that page to come around because in the in the signal every vertical blank is carrying an incrementing page number so if you're on page 100 and you have to and they cycle around so if you're on page 100 you type in page 600 it might currently be

broadcasting page 200, you just have to wait a few seconds for 600 to come around so the TV can display it. Later on, TV started to have a system called Fast Text, where they would cache for pages, and on the controller there were four, there were red, yellow, green and blue buttons corresponding to effectively hyperlinks within a page. The current page would say, you know, press red to go to such such page, green for another, blue, for another yellow, another. And the TV would know to pre-cash those pages so that it was likely they were already loaded by the time you pressed the color button. And so with that system, you have the building box to make a multi-choice quiz. And that was, you know, Bamboozle was the quiz that my sister

and I used to play every day as teenagers. So who is, I mean, I've got a bunch of questions because this is all entirely novel to me. Well, I'll ask my second question first, because it's uh it's more relevant to what you were just saying who is uh like distributing that this is just some people on the internet that are broadcasting this to like all tvs and people that are switching to teletext like what's going on here it's not it's before the internet well you know not before arpanet but before right home internet um no it was the actual tv stations broadcasting this so every channel had their own branded version of teletext is the idea, right? The teletext is the protocol, if you like. Every channel has their branded

version of it. So the BBC's was called C-Fax, C-E-E-F-A-X. Link in the show notes. I'll go find some info on that. I believe ITV was Oracle and there was Channel 4 text as well. At that time, remember, we only had four TV channels broadcasting over the air. Wow. And a fifth one came along, I think, in the early 90s. But what percentage of folks that had TVs, and I assume all TVs had this capability, were switching to teletext mode. Was this a very common thing, or was this like kind of nerds that were only doing it? So, at least to begin with, not all TVs had this. And I think, you know, you had to pay extra for a TV with Teletext decoding circuitry.

But by the mid-1980s, it was pretty ubiquitous. And it wasn't only nerds because it was built into your appliance. Anyone could use it. You know, you wanted to find out. news at any time a day, you didn't have to wait for a news bulletin. You could just call up page 100 was the default, you know, and you start reading the news over teletext. You want to find out the weather forecast. You want to find out when your plane is departing and if it's on time. You want to find out traffic conditions, you know,

things like that. Anyone could use it. And importantly, subtitles also could be transmit with the teletext signal, and page 888 was always subtitles for the current program you are viewing. And the TV had a mode, as well as being able to display the regular signal or the teletext signal, it could superimpose the teletext signal on top of the regular signal, right? And that's how subtitles were done. So the teletext signal would just contain the subtitles, and the rest of the page would be, you know, transparent or not there. I'm not entirely sure exactly the system that was used. But basically, the TV could display the teletext signal on top of the regular analog broadcast signal.

And that's how subtitles were done for many, many shows. Was this a global technology? Like, you were obviously in the UK. Was this in America as well? It was not in America. Different countries had different versions of it, I think, in Europe. The system I'm describing is, I think, only in the UK. Because it depends on your TV analog standard, right?

The PAL standard, 50 Hertz, is one standard, and the way to fit telethics and that is, you know, do that one way. And you do it a different way for, I don't know, the French CCAM standard at the time, or if the US had had it, it would have been, it had to be in the NTSC standard. And I don't know.

if or what variants were around in other countries very interesting i had no idea about this and so the second question which was really my first question but out of order you mentioned mode seven uh my brain immediately mapped that to like you know today we have you know our whatever different six by nine 1080p like is mode seven like the earlier version of the different aspect ratios and like fidelity of uh your screen the number of well mode seven was a thing on the BBC Microcomputer. And it was just one of the, it's just a way of mapping memory to what comes out on the screen. Right.

So there were different modes. Some modes traded, for example, trade resolution for color resolution, right? So you could have a very high resolution mode, but not very many colors available in that mode. Or you could have a much lower resolution mode with more colors available. And some of that was also the case in early PC technology. You know, remember like 320 by 200. 320 by 200 cGA and vGA you know things like that yeah so that was you know back in the days of 8-bit and 16-bit computers that was that was the way you did it you had a fixed amount of video

memory and you could you could have high-resolution images but but to fit in the same memory you needed to have fewer colors mode 7 was a textual mode if like i said was 40 characters by 20 five lines, so 1,000, one byte characters, and the character set, the code pages we might have called it, was, I think, custom. So there were control codes. I remember you could use a control code to print characters like double height, and you could do other things like make them flash, and you could make them all different colors. Interesting. A whole world of computing before my age

there were lots of drawing or graphical block characters built into the character set you know so as well as the regular alpha numeric characters and punctuation you've got you know like and you've got a whole extra 120 plus characters

you can use for whatever purpose and if you've got a custom character set you can just build in effectively drawing characters so you can make asky art-ish images and yeah that was a thing for I don't know how long did teletext last 20 years at least plus look at this we got to share this all right folks I mean we are we jump the gun we'll we'll say happy holidays in a bit but first things first I was thinking you know

we talked about this a while ago uh I think it was definitely you that I can't remember if you had made a suggestion or you know but uh it was some kind of my big fat quiz of the year year end episode idea of you know in the style of some of the I can't remember if it was the my big fat quiz of the year some of the other because I played that clip once

of I except I misattributed the comedian and I'm going to do it again but it's you know they're playing some unscrambled word which is like a mini game within the larger quiz and there's some guy are you thinking of eight out of test

8 out of 10 Cats Does Countdown? I think that's what it is, yeah. And so, like, I originally misattributed it to some other show and some other comedian, like Richard. It's fire, are they? Yeah, I think I misattributed it to him, but it was a different comedian. He's just, like, rapping the whole time, and then he's like, all right, I solved it, blood clot, which is clearly not a word. Oh, oh, yeah, okay. And then he says, I'll insert the clip again.

Hello and welcome to Countdown. Look, look, I'm on Countdown. Don't interrupt me. Tell Rachel your letters. Sam, Rach, um, a couple of B's, Q's, N, J. Just Pick a Letter. A bit serious on a show, isn't it? I'll tell you what, they'll have, um, put over your one up there.

All right. Fantastic. Okay, we've got, um... Help yourself, like a pick-a-mix. C, L. No? L. Grumpy, isn't you?

U. D, B. Fantastic. R. A and T. Okay. Stop the clock. Well, start the clock. Mr Gieser.

Put the cares in the freezer. Ann Robinson. Ha! And Robinson. Have a breezer. Okay. Okay. We don't do that.

What can't you do that? No. Get a couple of cares, put him in the freezer. Shirley and Lisa. Gonna have a pizza. Do you know Rita? You don't know Rita? We're going to have a pizza.

Okay. Fantastic, okay. Boom, I've got all the letters, Susie. Blood clark. Fantastic. It's all right, I win, eh? Um, that's not a word. That's a word. You're a bit moody, ain't ya?

Come on, give us a smile. It's not a word. Ha ha ha ha ha ha. And you are the weakest link. Goodbye. it's one of my favorite things because it's i can't i don't know any of these people's names right i've just seen this on youtube or instagram and the the lady who's like the moderator is very upset and she's telling the guy to be quiet and he's like you know lisa gonna have a pizza and yeah i remember i think that was a deliberate takeoff of countdown okay so it was maybe yeah the actual show of it

like uh anyways so but but that i think i'd mentioned that at one point anyways and there was this idea that maybe one of these year-end kind of holiday episodes, we'll get together a few people, and I'll be the moderator, and we'll do some countdown, you know, C++ programming software, whatever. Anyways, we had not the energy nor the time this year to do that, folks. Yeah, we've got like three days left before Christmas. Just for you to sort that out then, Colin? It did cross my mind. I was like, I could reach out to a few people. I'm sure Tony would be down, and, you know, I'm sure a few other folks. But anyways, in light of that, I am now about to share my screen.

We can do an entire screen, I believe. And look what we have here, folks. We have. There it is. Bamboozle. Bambor-Busler poses another 12 questions, answer using fast text at the bottom. One wrong, and you must try again. Can you answer all 12 in one attempt?

I assume I can just use my most. So I was thinking while Ben was saying this, I wonder if this exists online. Sure enough, if you Google bamboozle, the second result, or I guess I googled BBC bamboozle quiz, is a digittextsim.com. And this is, yes, I mean, the listener can't see. But Ben is showing the sleeve of his Christmas sweater that inspired this conversation. And so we should, I mean, I'm probably not going to help much. Bamber Boozler says, good day, let's make it not a blue, but a musical Monday, with a dozen posers covering all styles and tastes ready.

And so I'm not a trivia person. I'll do my best to help, but this is probably going to be all on you, Ben. All right, I will try. Sam Rockwell is 52 this month, but in what film did he play a small role as a head thug with the line, regular or menthol? And I guess it's actually a, it's multiple choice. Red, teenage mutant, hero turtles, green, clownhouse, yellow,

the last exit to Brooklyn, and Cyan, Strictly Business. So the colors are like A, B, and C. Those aren't part of the titles, if you did not deduce that. Do you know, Ben? I don't know. Was there actually a film called Teenage Mutant Hero Turtles? That was what the Teenage Mutuals were called in the UK, but I don't think that's a film.

I was going to say, I thought that was like a fake answer because I've never heard of Hero Turtles. It's Ninja Turtles in North America. The only movie I've heard of in this list is Strictly Business. I mean, that's better, that's better than nothing. I mean, and Sam Rockwell is the guy that was more recently in season three of the White Lotus, which you may or may not have watched. I haven't watched. Also, he seems strictly business, when was that made?

Early 90s? Maybe earlier? And he's only 52, which means at the time he would have been under 20 and he's playing a role as a head thug. So I don't know that it can be. strictly business. I'd be surprised. And is this quiz, I mean, is this a, like this is a current quiz, I assume, correct? It seems so. It's showing the current

date. I would plump for last exit to Brooklyn. All right. That sounds. We're guessing yellow. It might be wrong, but that's my best guess. You've been bamboozled. Do you wish to play again? If so, press red. Okay. We got to start over? Yeah. But you get the same question, so you can sort of

make a way through it let's try your choice well i mean you said strictly business is a movie we don't know that the other one is do we know clownhouse is a movie so we're going to go we'll go with this we've been bamboozled again it has to be clown house then surely because teenage mutant hero turtles we've been it's apparently a movie now all right we're going to go through all 12 folks does it make the final cut we don't know super mario world is 30 this month which new character is introduced in in super Mario world today do they do they mean which new character was introduced I'm gonna say there's like there's like a missing information here what it's like what it's been interesting today because

sorry I haven't read the answers I was just confused red is Toadstool green is Bowser yellow is Yoshi and Cyan is warrior I mean we've got a better shot we what Mario what Mario oh he knows this for a fact no no no that's not the right answer I'm just correct correcting your pronunciation he says warrior i think we're starting over the answer is yoshi the answer is yoshi the answer is yoshi i think so all right there we go we're one for two we're not going to count me clicking it's wario i said wario you said waria i think or waria i apologize folks i shima and i have been playing a lot of the we uh mario cart so i you know i should know a little bit more but here we go question three this is up

Barale, what do the initials how for the Hal 9,000 computer mean in the film 2001, a space odyssey? Instead of doing red, green, yellow, and cyan, we're going to do A, B, C, and D, just to make it a little bit easier for the listener. A,

hateful, artificial life form. B, heuristically programmed algorithmic computer. C, hardware, AI language, and D, highly advanced language. I actually don't know this one. I have a guess, but my guess is

be heuristically programmed algorithmic computer and I'm wondering if it's a backronym because Hal is you may or may not have remarked on this each letter of Hal is one letter back from IBM I was going to say I know that there's some

other backronym kind of thing I wonder if that's how they but yeah I wouldn't have been able to tell you that off the top of my head but as soon as you said one or whatever I was like it's going to be like the APLBQN thing so let's guess my guess is also be a heuristically programmed algorithmic computer we are correct that I think is what three three for four three four I don't know how many times they don't

give us the score what's going on bamboos will give us a score question whatever we're on we'll say four which board game is played with teams of players trying to identify specific words from their teammates drawings all right I know this one even without looking at it A scatigories B charades. C. Pictionary or D. Sketchy. It is let Ben answer. It's pictionary. Yes. I'm assuming. Yes. That's what you're thinking. Yes, that's what I indeed was thinking. All right. I know this one as well, folks. Question five. We think we don't actually know what is the chemical symbol for silver. A, A, A, G, B, A-A-U, C-A-L, or D-P-B. You know this one, I assume.

course. Yeah. Any crossword, aficionado knows silver and gold at least. AG, yeah. Oh, well, I mean, those aren't the definitions. In the official, the OPSD, the official player's Scrabble Dictionary,

which is a subset of the NWL, the North American word list, AG is actually short for agriculture. And AL is an Arabian shrub. What is a, so I think P.B. lead, right? And what is A. L is aluminum? Gold and aluminum, yeah. Aluminium. Aluminum, if you like. I just saw an Instagram real about the pronunciation of that the other day. But anyways, we're going to go with AG. It is correct. That's, uh, ooh, I know this one as well. That's maybe we

started off with a hard one, but these ones are getting a little bit easier. Sometimes it works out that way. So question six, in regards to beer, what does IPA stand for? A, independently pumped ale, B, independently produced ale, C, Indian pale ale, or D, Indian-produced ale. I imagine you know the answer to this one as well. Yeah. It is C, Indian pale ale. My favorite type of beer, folks. Uh-oh.

All right, I definitely don't know this one. So we're calling it, whatever. Question seven, maybe eight. We've lost track. What type of farm? We'll come back through. Yeah, I'll fix it in post. I definitely won't fix it in post, but it's, what type.

of farm did Taylor Swift grow up on? A, ranch, B, flower farm, C, micro farm, or D, Christmas tree farm? I don't even know what a micro farm is. I was saying, I'm ruling out micro farm just because that sounds fake. Flower farm seems unlikely in the US. I agree. Is she, is she American or Canadian? She's a well, I don't know what you know. I don't know what percentage of our listeners are Taylor Swift fans. So we might lose a couple listeners here. I'm almost positive she's American. Actually, no, she has to be because we would know.

Like, I know that Justin Bieber is Canadian because it's a huge deal. So the fact that I don't know means that she's American. Well, I leave it. It's your guess. Red and cyan are both. Oh, sorry, A and D are both plausible. Yeah, I think it's either A or D. I mean, I'm kind of leaning towards D because

Because it's more interesting. Yeah, and also too, like, if she grew up on a ranch, why would you make a question of, like, the types of farms, right? Yeah. Ah, good, good thought. Like, it just, like, I wouldn't ever think, oh, she grew up on a ranch. Let's make a question about the type of farm she lived on. It's, like, what, ranch is, like, the only type of farm, really.

Yeah. But if it's Christmas tree farm, it's like, oh, we can come up with a few others. All right. All right. So, let's guess, D. Oh, we got it right. All right, yes. We didn't, we didn't actually know.

I know that one though. I was just educated guess. Okay, this one I know. Eight or nine? I definitely don't. Who was Henry the Eighths? That's V with three eyes for those that are wondering. Who was Henry the Eighth's last wife?

A. Catherine Howard, B. Catherine Parr C. Anne of Cleves and D. Jane Seymour. I have not a clue. The answer is B. Catherine Parr. Catherine Howard, I think, was number five. Five, out of Cleese number four, Jane C, one number three, Catherine Parr, number six. Damn, look at that folks.

Do they teach you that in school, or you just are avid reader of the history of... They teach you, I don't know if they teach you that in school. You kind of get that through osmosis. Wow. Also, you're a cryptic crossword guy, so I will say I did do a cryptic crossword while I was in Australia. Oh, yeah? I did get a little bit, there was a speaker at the conference. that taught me a trick of like,

you need to draw a line down the clue that kind of separates the words. Yeah, which I don't know, maybe you had told me, but it didn't, if you had said something like that, like I knew there's two parts to the clue, but I had never visually tried to find a dividing line

that like, uh, severs, you know, the, uh, like definition and the word play. Exactly. And when I started doing that,

sometimes you can just like slice the clue, look at one half and then, you know, hope that the other half match. it, especially if you have a couple letters. Anyways, not the elegant way to solve it. But anyways, Catherine Parr, B, and we are, I think so that's, I think it's only one wrong at this point out of, we'll say nine.

So we'll call this number 10. We'll find out in a couple questions. What is the lifespan of a dragonfly? A, 12 hours, B, eight hours, C, 24 hours, and D, 48 hours. Are you kidding me? All dragonflies live two days or less? Well, I'm wondering about this clue. is this meaning to say mayfly or a dragonfly is really that short-lived as well because

mayflies are from the ephemera genus you know we just cognate with ephemeral I was going to say is ephemera ephemera is the same as ephemeral that's uh and mayflies are often confused with dragonflies I'm not sure that dragonflies really live this short of a time but anyway we'll go with what we have I'm going to say 48 hours so I don't think it's shorter than that we've bamboot we were doing so well start again we know we know we know the answers though so and this time we'll count all right so we were all right this is question nine so we're question nine i was only one question off of 12 you're going to go with 12 now uh no question question nine of 12 um let's go for 24 hours 24 hey there we go so we're seven for nine at this point

next question so question number 10 third last question sean of the dead hot fuzz and which other film make up the three flavors cornetto trilogy. Do you know this one? I didn't, well, not off the top of my head, but maybe we can, do you know this one?

I do. Okay, perfect. A, run, fat boy run. B, the world's end. C, Paul, or D. Big Nothing. Honestly, like, these are films. I haven't heard of Run,

fat boy run. That's a song to me. Or, I think I Actually, the song is run, but there's a line in it that says that. Anyways, so that doesn't scream movie to me. The World's End, I'm pretty sure, is a comedy with, I don't know, Leonardo DiCaprio and Jonah Hill. Is that the climate change one? I don't know.

There's some movie recently. No, you're thinking of don't look up, I think. That's what I'm thinking of. The World's End is indeed a comedy with Simon Pegg, who also stars in Shonda the Dead and Hot Fuss. Yeah, yeah. So I was going to say, for the wrong reasons, I was going to guess that the world's end sounds like a movie to me. Paul does not. Big nothing does not. So is it B, the world's end? All right. So I would have guessed correctly, but not because I had heard of the movie. Or maybe I had, but was confusing it. So that's eight for 10. Two questions left. Oh, I mean, this one's easy. This might be the easiest of all in terms of how many people would know it. Which famous boxer could, quote, float like a butterfly and quote, sting like a bee. choices are. A, Muhammad Ali, B, Mike Tyson, C. Frank Bruno, or D. Evanderholi Field. I'm pretty sure it's A, correct? Yeah. I did have to think for a sec, because Mike Tyson is also very famous, but it definitely is not him. And do you know? Definitely, Ali. Do I know also his actual name?

Cassius Clay? Cassius Clay? His original name? Or yeah, yeah, original name. I'm not sure if it was legally changed. It was pseudonym or whatever. ever happened. Anyway, so that is the... Here we go. There we go. What a great question to end on, folks. Question number 12,

what is the nickname of the character played by Morgan Freeman in one of the best movies of all time, folks? Shawshank Redemption. It's actually kind of funny because... It's a strep test. We're saying ABCD, but actually, I'll read it out this time. Red blue, green, green, yellow, brown, or cyan red.

other words, A, blue, B, green, C, brown, or D, red. And I know Ben knows the answer to this question. It is definitely red. Yep. Which, well done. How many did you get right the first time? Check your rating below. We got, I believe it was 10 for 12.

And it says that we are almost great performance is 10 to 11. Zero to 2. Were you really trying? Because it's on the internet these days, you can't really change. cheat in the way that my sister and I used to sometimes cheat because, and it's a risky strategy. Now, of course, when the tele-tick signal is cycling around, as it were, your TV is busy cashing the pages for the red, blue, yellow, and green options, which means that there's a short time before it's cached any of them, and you can, if you press red and there's no page

cache, then nothing happens until that page comes around. So you can try multiple answers in one go, as it were. And that's what you would do? That's what we would sometimes do. It didn't always work very well because you're literally racing the TV signal. But if there was a question that we had no idea, we'd sometimes try and exploit the nature of the signal to try and eliminate answers more quickly. You can't do that on the internet. where every click just takes you straight away. Right, obviously, this website that cannot be beaten in terms of time. Anyways, that was fun.

A little quiz, you know, stay tuned until 2026 year end. Will Connor have the time and energy to put together a countdown-style C++ programming language quiz? Be sure to check these show notes, either in your podcast app or at ADSP thepodcast.com for links to anything we mentioned in today's episode as well as a link to a get-up discussion where you can leave thoughts, comments, and questions. Thanks for listening. We hope you enjoyed and have a great day. I am the anti-brace.