All About Change - Confronting Antisemitism Series: Part I

Episode Date: November 15, 2021

For decades, Deborah Lipstadt has been a leading figure in writing about and combating antisemitism. She is most well-known for defeating Holocaust denier David Irving when he sued her for defamation. However, Deborah’s accomplishments span far beyond the trial that made her infamous. She is currently the Dorot Professor of Modern Jewish History and Holocaust Studies at Emory University and recently received a nomination by President Biden as Special Envoy to Monitor and Combat Antisemitism.  Please join us for Part I of a special series on Confronting Antisemitism. Listen to as Jay and Deborah discuss the history of antisemitism, why there has been an uprise in hate recently, and what we can do to combat it.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

All Inclusive, a podcast on inclusion, innovation, and social justice with Jay Ruderman. Hi, I'm Jay Ruderman, and this is All Inclusive, a podcast focused on inclusion, innovation, and social justice. and social justice. For decades, Deborah Lipstadt has been a leading figure in writing about and combating anti-Semitism. She's probably most well known for having been sued for libel by David Irving after calling him out as one of the most dangerous spokespersons for Holocaust denial in her 1993 book, Denying the Holocaust. Irving lost the case and was publicly denounced as a Holocaust denier. Lipstadt later wrote about the trial, which was made into the 2016 film Denial, starring Rachel Weisz. However, Deborah's accomplishments span far beyond the trial that made her famous. She is currently the DeRoe Professor of Modern Jewish History and Holocaust Studies at Emory

University and has written eight books on the topic of anti-Semitism. She spent the past 20 years in roles like the historical consultant to the Holocaust Museum in D.C. and served two terms on the United States Holocaust Memorial Council as a nomination from President Clinton. And her most recent achievement, a nomination by President Biden as the U.S. envoy to combat and monitor anti-Semitism. Deborah, welcome to All Inclusive. Thank you, Jay. It's a pleasure being with you. Thank you, Jay. It's a pleasure being with you. So let me just jump right in and ask you the pertinent question of why is anti-Semitism different from other types of hate?

It's a great question, and I could go on about that for an hour, but let me give you a short answer. It's similar in many respects it's a prejudice and you know prejudice think about the etymology of the word prejudice pre-judge don't confuse me with the facts I've made up my mind I know what this person is when I see them coming down the block two blocks away and it assumes everybody in the group is the same so in that, it's a prejudice and other characteristics of prejudice as well. But it's different. I always find that the best contrast can be done between most direct, though it applies to other prejudices too, between racism and anti-Semitism. The racist does what I like to call punching down the racist looks at the person of color black person brown person asian person asian origin person and says if that person

if they and i put they if we were on camera i would put they in very big air quotes. If they move into air quotes, again, our neighborhood, if their kids go to our kids' school, there goes the neighborhood, there goes the school. They're going to drag us down. They're lesser than us. They're not as smart. They're not as talented, et cetera, et cetera. The anti-Semite looks at the Jew and sees someone, oh, they're smarter than us, but not smart in a good way, smart in a malicious, a conniving way. They're crafty. They're small, but they're all powerful. They're rich. They're all rich. In my very nice neighborhood in Atlanta, at the height of the pandemic, there's a Catholic family, lovely family, terrific family who lives in the neighborhood. But their young kids were playing outside.

And some Jewish kids walked by with yarmulkes. I think it was Shabbat. So maybe even they had Shabbat clothes on or whatever. And the young kids said, oh, those are Jews. Stay away from them. They carry the pandemic. said, oh, those are Jews, stay away from them, they carry the pandemic. And when the parents who were standing near, the Jewish parents heard this, they spoke to the Catholic parents, the Catholic parents were appalled. But somehow the kids have picked this up. You know, and if

you look at some of the untrue stuff about the pandemic, it's often infused with anti-Semitism. So the anti-Semite punches up, the Jew is more powerful, and punches down, the Jew is disgusting. But that punching up is the main difference in that the Jew is not just to be loathed, but for the anti-Semite, the Jew is to be feared for what they might do. So do you think that Jews are seen in some sectors by anti-Semites as the white elite? anti-Semites on the left, you have anti-Semites on the right, you have anti-Semites who don't know where they stand politically. So I think it would really depend on the person who is the source of the anti-Semitism. Let me contrast anti-Semitism on right and left, because I think I know that's of interest to you with all the other work you've done in this arena.

with all the other work you've done in this arena. For the person on the right, on the far right, for the murderer in Pittsburgh, or the murderer in San Diego, or the murderer in Halle, Germany, you know, three of the recent incidents that we've had in Halle, but for a lock on the door, a door that had been reinforced with funds given to that community by the Joint Distribution Committee,

that would have been the biggest massacre of Jews on German soil since World War II. For all those people, those were all right wing, far right wing extremists. For all those people, the Jew was other. The Jew is not white. The Jew is other, and not only is the Jew other, but the Jew is the one conspiring behind the scenes to hurt white people. That's what you heard in Charlottesville. In Charlottesville, when they were chanting on Friday night with the tiki torches, Jews will not replace us. What did they mean by that? They meant that the white supremacist, and this goes back to a theory propounded already in the late 60s, early 70s, as civil rights laws began to change, as there seemed to be an ostensible change.

And there was a change, not far enough, as we well know, in the status and in the position of Black people in the United States. White supremacists looked around and said, remember my punching up, punching down thing. These people, they're not smart enough. They're not talented enough to be achieving this on their own. There's got to be someone behind them, someone smarter than them and smarter than us, someone wealthier than them and possibly wealthier than us, who is conniving, who is making this happen. Who is the pup? They are the puppets.

Who is the puppeteer? The Jew is the puppeteer. So the Jew for those people are clearly not white people. I believe the murderer in Pittsburgh, as he was being brought down by the SWAT team, was screaming at the people in the synagogue, many of whom he had just murdered. You will not destroy the white race. In other words, you're not white. You're something other. You're mud people, whatever. If you go to the left, and I'm not talking about everybody on the left, nor am I talking about you on the right, but I'm talking about the extremes. But if you go to the if we were on camera, you would see I'm wearing a Jewish star. I started to wear a Jewish star just about a year and a half, two years ago as anti-Semitism began to skyrocket, and I didn't

want to pass. But for them, the Jew is white. The Jew is wealthy. Remember my template of anti-Semitic charges. The Jew is powerful, and the Jew can't be a victim because they're white privilege powerful. So it really depends if you're looking on how the Jew is seen, you have to ask who is doing the seeing. So let me ask you something about the left. Where does anti-zionism fit into this i mean obviously you know you can be critical of israel um but sometimes those lines are blurred and and anti-zionism uh being against israel blurs the line and becomes anti-semitic where do you see that happening it's it's great question. And it's a very, it's a difficult question, because there's so much nuance embedded in both the question and

the answer. And you asked it in a very nuanced fashion. I'm not surprised, but more power to you for that. As you say, you can criticize Israel, you can criticize Israel's policies, read Haaretz. Certainly before the's policies. Read Haaretz. Certainly before the current Israeli administration, Haaretz was a bedrock of criticism of Israeli policies. And it still is to a certain extent. Go to the Knesset. You've sat in the Knesset. I'm sure you've been in there. And, you know, they're yelling and screaming at each other.

They're debating and criticizing Israeli policies. Go to the coffee shops of Tel Aviv, of Jerusalem, of Haifa, you'll hear criticism. That's not anti-Semitism. And I say that, I say that we have to be, we, particularly we in the Jewish community, have to be very careful. if we call any criticism anti-Semitism, then when we confront real anti-Semitism, nobody's going to pay attention to us. So it's not criticism of Israelis' policies. I would argue that someone who says, I don't believe in the right of a Jewish state to exist, that I'm going to do everything in my power to make sure there is no Jewish state, I would say to them, excuse me, there's 6 million Jews living in that strange number. But yes,

that's the approximate number. There's 6 million Jews living in that state, many of them, of course, people of color, or they would be considered people of color or non Ashkenazi at the very least. Where should they go? What should happen to them? Now, if they tell me they should live happily in a binational state, I would say, you know, give me an example of one Muslim state with possibly the exception of Morocco, where Jews and other religions live and prosper as minorities. A, you want to say the Jews as a people don't have the right to a national identity in the national homeland. And B, you're glibly willing to do away with the state of Israel without thinking of the personal consequences. I would say if that's not

anti-Semitism, it's pretty darn close to it. So it seems to me in my 55 years that I've experienced more anti-Semitism in the past few years than I have in the rest of my life. Do you think that over the past few years, let's say three to four years, that there's been an uptick in violence, both in America and Europe? And why do you think that is? Because antisemitism has been with us for thousands of years. Right. It's rightfully called the oldest or the longest hatred. I'm not sure if the late Professor Robert Wistrich was the one who coined that term, but he wrote a book calling it that. You're absolutely right. It's been around. I describe it as a herpes-like disease. Someone who regrettably has a herpes-like disease can be mild, it can be more severe, but they know that at moments of stress, it often will surface. At moments of stress, it will often come out.

There are certain kinds, though medicine has advanced now and certain kinds can be eradicated, can be gotten rid of. Some lay dormant in the body. And I think in that respect, there's a similarity to a virus that lies dormant in your body and can't be gotten rid of. certainly think that we've just had an administration here in the united states with a president who did some good things the abraham accords and things like that but who also his political strategy seemed to be based in dividing amongst groups rather than uniting groups, and being what might be called in Yiddish or in certain German, a cooking spoon, stirring up the pot. I'm not saying at all that he created it, not at all. It was there, it was there long before, but it was given a certain legitimacy, open expressions of prejudice,

open expressions of racism, of hatred, of anti-As murders and other tragic incidents like that. There began to be those in the African American community and the anti-racist community, who, as I said earlier, began to look at Jews and say, what are you talking about anti-Semitism? Anti-Semitism isn't real. Anti-Semitism is made up. You're just using antisemitism because you want to be thought of as victims. I have a friend who just experienced it in a high level conversation group in her major metropolitan city where a group of prominent people and emerging leaders had been brought together to talk about problems of racism and in the course of talking about problems of race and someone engaged in pure anti-semitic stereotypes and no one in the group there were about 20 people there no one in the group said a word she tried to intervene but by then the moment had passed so that anti-semitism in part because jews we recovered quickly you know it's sometimes hard for people to remember.

I know you have no trouble remembering it. But 70 years ago, one out of every three Jews on the face of the earth was murdered. And we never replaced that third of our population. But on the surface to the general population, it looks like, well, they had a tragedy and they pulled themselves up by the bootstraps or they got others to pull them up by the bootstraps and they've recovered. So people, when we say, wait a minute, it's still there, there's a failure to understand it. I know of your interest on the campus, and that's one of the issues we see on the campus, that the administrations of different campuses, and there's wide varieties amongst them,

fail to understand that though the Jewish student who comes into their office, into the office of the Dean of Diversity, or the Provost for Diversityost for diversity inclusion and whatever you know whatever the title might be and says i was a victim of anti-semitism they look at this student this articulate nicely dressed student not on scholarship comes from a solid home you know etc, et cetera, et cetera. And they say, this is not the victim of discrimination that I see most of the time in my office. This is what, what is he, what is she complaining about? They don't get it. Or the other thing that we see happening is when students go in to complain about this, they're referred to the office of religious life. You know, every, every campus has

some sort of chaplain's office or something because they say we don't deal with religion go talk to them this is a religious thing and the failure to understand that a kid a kid an adult a person a jew it can be an atheist can be antagonistic to any form of religious belief but has a very strong jewish. So it's immediately boxed into the box of religion of anti religious sentiment. So I think and on top of that, we've gone through a period of upheavals, the pandemic, the massive migrations from Africa, from Middle East, from South America. And if you remember my comparison of a few moments ago of anti-Semitism to a virus that is always present,

when there is that sort of tension in society, when you have a proliferation of conspiracy theories, it often ends up in anti-Semitism. And I just mentioned a term which I probably should have mentioned earlier, when we're talking about anti-Semitism, is anti-Semitism is the only prejudice that's a conspiracy theory. That's what makes it different, going back to your very first question. And the conspiracy theorist, I think it was Yair Rosenberg, who wrote a very insightful little article or blog post, I don't remember what it was, and he was very correct.

I've thought about this, I've written about this, but he really nailed it in his comment. He said the conspiracy theorists may not start out looking at or for Jews, but they're going to end up looking at or for Jews. Many conspiracy theorists start right away. Who is conspiring to cause evil in the society? Who's poisoning the wells? Who's bringing down the German mark, the Reich's mark in the interwar period? Who's doing this? Who's standing in the back of the Jews?

But there are conspiracy theorists who don't start there. But if you're a conspiracy theorist, you're looking for someone who is manipulating things, someone who works the devil's work, their evil handiwork, incognito, someone who is crafty, who is powerful, who is well-connected, who knows how to manipulate the sources of power. And what am I describing to you? I'm describing to you the anti-Semitic template. forgery produced in the late 19th century by the czarist police based on an earlier work that had nothing to do with jews was totally unconnected to anything jewish but taken by the czarist police and the evil characters the the antagonists in it were were made jews and it's supposedly the protocols of these group of jews sitting i believe, in Basel, if I remember correctly. I try not to read it too often.

Figuring out how to control the world. So if you're looking for who is controlling, who is creating this pandemic, who is profiting from this pandemic? Maybe the Chinese created it, says the conspiracy theorist. But who's profiting? Who's behind big pharma? Who's doing this? They will often end up at the Jew. So let me ask you, following on this discussion about conspiracy theories, and you've written about this, but let's look at the insurrection, the attack on the Capitol on

January 6th. All sorts of people up there, they come, they attack the Capitol, they're trying to stop the election, a lot of anti-Semitic shirts, flags, so forth. What does that have to do? The issue at hand, which was trying to delegitimize the election. For the first time in our conversation, I'm going to critique your question. Okay. And you make the same mistake that hordes of people make, lots of people make. You are looking for a rational explanation. You're a rational man.

I know that. You're looking for a rational explanation, you're a rational man, I know that you're looking for a rational explanation for an irrational sentiment. You know, it goes back again to what I was saying earlier about prejudice, prejudice to prejudge to decide when I see a black person, when I see an Asian person, when I see a Jewish person, when I see someone who is ostensibly gay, and I assume I know what they are, it's ridiculous. I don't know what their personal behavior and personal beliefs and personal ethics are any more than I would know know, over 40 years, well over 40 years, studying anti-Semitism, teaching about anti-Semitism, pondering about anti-Semitism. And it's such a conundrum because you are trying to fight and expose an irrational sentiment, and you're trying to explain something that's irrational

using rational means so going back to the insurrection on january 6th there's no way of rationally explaining it there were there were nazi symbols all over that place and there were also nazi symbols in charlottesville there. As you probably well know, there's a civil suit that's beginning in less than three weeks against the organizers of Unite the Right. And I looked at all the flags and all the paraphernalia and listened to tapes and read transcripts and emails of the organizers of the Charlottesville Unite the Right. It was the first rally that the right tried to come together as a coalition. And the anti-Semitic Nazi ideology, symbolism, rhetoric was just overwhelmed. So that when these are people who believe in a conspiracy, a conspiracy against white people, of which Jews are not in their view,

those people storming Capitol Hill believed there was a conspiracy. And even though there were some Jews amongst them, they were looking for someone who was manipulating this, who was controlling this, someone behind the scenes. And for many of them, that was the Jew. So let me jump to the left and the criticism of Israel that we touched on. There are so many conflicts around the world where people are being treated unjustly, being killed, being forced into camps. What is the fascination with Israel? And why is Israel gets so much more attention on the left than other injustices around the

world? than other injustices around the world. And not to say that you can't criticize Israel, but it seems to me that there is an undue focus on what's happening in a very small slice of the world. Right. You're absolutely correct. I won't critique that question because that's a spot-on question. There is a disproportionate attention. If you look at the UN Human Rights Council Commission, you know, the number of condemnations they pass of Israel and none of China for its treatment of the Uyghurs or the treatment of the Rohingyas in Myanmar or other places in which there have been genocides. It's just striking. That's not to say, I'm not arguing that everybody does it. Therefore, prejudice or oppression or

mistreatment is right. I'm not saying that at all. And I'm not saying that everything Israel has done is right. It hasn't. No entity of people can claim that they are, as I said in traditional Hebrew, nakimipesha, free from sin. We've all done wrong. We're human beings. And if any religious identity recognizes that, certainly it's Judaism. But this disproportionate attention, you just have to ask why. What is it about? That doesn't mean that, you know, someone who fights against what they consider mistreatment of the Palestinians has to be also equally devoted to mistreatment of the Uyghurs in China or the Rohingya in Myanmar

or wherever other countries, whatever it might be, people have their particular niche, you know, people are concerned about a certain disease, that doesn't mean they don't think other diseases are dangerous, but you have your focus. But the disproportionate, as I think you put it, the attention to this one issue, you've got to wonder why. You know, I was once in a town giving a lecture, and I was free in the evening. And the big university in that town was having a lecture, something to do with the Middle East with whatever. So I just picked myself up by myself. Nobody knew who I was and went and sat in the back of this. And then it was some things bothered me some things I agreed with.

Afterwards, people were sort of standing around chatting and I was just listening because I really wasn't there with anyone. And but one group had sort of was, you know, welcomed me in or whatever. And I was just listening. And one guy said, oh, Israel, Israel doesn't have a right to exist because it displaced another people. Now, I thought about this and I wasn't going to get into a debate, whether it displaced another people, how many people were there, etc, etc. But there were certainly more people who were displaced, we know that, and Israelis, Israel acknowledges that. But I said that, you say, because Israel displaced, or in the process of the creation of the state, people were displaced by Israelis, that delegitimizes its right to exist.

Look, I said, absolutely. I said, okay, I'm a historian. Let me put that in historical context. And let's think of other countries that have displaced people in the course of their creation. And let's start with the United States of America and certainly Native Americans. Some Native Americans prefer to be called Indians, whatever, however term you want to use, or even slaves, you know, America being built on slaves, they weren't displaced, they would take it stolen from from Africa, or go to Canada and the First

Nation as the indigenous tribes in Canada are called and the terrible schools in which these were paid or go to Australia and look at the Aborigines or New Zealand and the Maoris. In other words, I didn't talk about China and I didn't talk about me. I talked about countries that are held up as shining examples of Western democratic countries. And again, I said, I wasn't saying because it happened in the united states canada australia the british empire you know no better example than that that that makes it all right i wasn't saying that oh you know he beats his wife but so does he so that makes it all right of course not um but i was saying you don't you may say america uh mistreated its native population which it did no question

about it and still does but you don't say that that questions its right to exist Australia mistreated the aborigines and in many cases they still are suffering terrible terrible uh disproportionate uh status in society but you don't question the right to exist. So I'm just saying when you pick out, when you make the Israel the singular focus, I have to ask why, what's behind it? What's underlying it? And maybe not in all cases, but I would say in many cases, it's anti-Semitism, maybe unconscious anti-Semitism, but it's anti-Semitism. Right. It's a great point. Let me ask you, you've written eight books on the topic of anti-Semitism. What initially drew you to this topic? That's such a good question.

A couple of things. I was a undergraduate in Israel in 1960. I went to the year 1966, 67. And that makes me very old, not so old. I was there during the Six-Day War. And I remember that fear. I remember that concern. I remember those graves being dug in the public parks in Tel Aviv, expecting, you know, death of hundreds. And that was very, very telling for me and very, very powerful experience. I even had a powerful experience before the war in April of 1967, when no one knew a war was coming, including the IDF and security services. I was in Greece. We had a break in school and I went to Greece and Turkey. And then from Turkey, from Istanbul, instead of flying back to Tel Aviv, I flew to Beirut and went by car, Beirut, Damascus, Amman, across the Allenby Bridge into East Jerusalem, and then through what was called the Mandelbaum Gate,

which was the way tourists crossed from one side of Jerusalem to the other. And I had to hide my identity as a Jew, and I heard people say horrible things about Jews. And that was also a striking, striking moment. And the third piece, it wasn't one thing, the third piece of the puzzle so to speak was a trip i took to the soviet union in 1972 i arrived there the day after the massacre at the munich olympics and that was already an unsettling thing but and i i spent time meeting with people who were called as you well know refuse nicks jews who wanted to leave the Soviet Union, but who couldn't get visas to leave, even though the Soviets said we allow reunification of family and where we allow people to freely emigrate. But of course, that was all, you know, a lot of hooey. I met people

who were suffering directly and experiencing direct anti-Semitism from the Soviet regime. And then on the day we were supposed to continue midway through our trip, I was with one other person. And midway through our trip, we were detained by the KGB, separated, held for a day, questioned. We didn't know what was going to happen. And finally, a release that allowed to go to Romania. So I saw that it was momentary. I'm not comparing it in any manner, shape or form to what a ref hadn't really experienced, or I thought I hadn't experienced anti-Semitism in my life. I'll tell you a funny, not funny, haha, but sort of strange story. I was sitting around with a group of Israelis. It was after the Six-Day War, because I stayed on in Israel for another 12, 13 months. And they were talking about, you know, Aliyah immigrating to Israel and

anti-Semitism. I said, well, I've never really experienced anti-Semitism. Now, shortly before in the conversation, I had mentioned something about a kid from, a Jewish kid, a kid from, certainly if they came from a major metropolitan area where there was a large Jewish population. But if they were Jewish, they had to be better than the non-Jewish kid to get into the best schools. That it was clear that they had a quota. You know, this is in the late 60s. It still was there. It was there. You know, sometimes they'd make it a geographic quota.

Oh, we want to limit the number of kids from new york and from chicago philadelphia and miami or something like that and los angeles and then i had said but jewish kids to get in has to be has to do better on their exams and do better in their grades etc so someone sitting there looked at me and said you just said you never experienced anti-semitism what's that and i was taken aback and i said oh oh, my God, they're absolutely right. So all those things put together, you know, became sort of formed the puzzle that shaped my professional life and made me intrigued me by this topic. I began to study it and to write about it and write about the Shoah and then Holocaust denial. Of course, I then had the unlucky experience of being sued by a Holocaust denier. And in that courtroom, I saw anti-Semitism up close and personal, sitting 10 feet away from me, sitting

in the gallery with his supporters, being accosted in the street by people who who were his accolades who is his his trainees so to speak um i heard sneering remarks in a british courtroom about jews and uh even little things like ellie weasel he would he would always say ellie weasel or description of simon wiesenthal at one point, hook nose, beady eyes. It could have come out of the most classic anti-Semitic work. It could have been description of Shylock. All those things together reminded me that, though I have lived a very good life, blessed life,

and had many fabulous experiences and the chance to teach and to write, that it's out there, that it's out there. And that, you see, ultimately, I also became convinced, and I'm more convinced now than ever, that certainly anti-Semitism is a threat to the Jew. You know, it's the Jew whose ox is bored. They're the ones who are directly going to experience it. But it's not just a threat to the Jew. It's a threat to the democratic society, which we so treasure and which Jews and many others have so prospered in so many ways. And I don't mean only financially, but in terms of achievements and contributions.

Other groups have not had that same experience, but let's hope that that improves as well. But hatred, you see, anti-Semitism, this goes back to my earlier comments about conspiracy theories. Anti-Semitism creates doubts about the government, who's controlling the government, who's lobbying, who's behind it, the banks, who controls the banks, the media, who controls the media, who's controlling the judges, who's controlling even the protest movements of people of color, etc. But it creates doubts about the fairness of society. And once you succumb to, well, we saw it going back to your question of January 6th. Once you succumb to this notion of a conspiracy,

once you feel that the democratic society in which you live is being controlled by others and things are being done unfairly, you either have reached that point from a root of anti-Semitism or you're going to come back to anti-Semitism. So if you value this democratic society, this fragile democratic society in which we live. You've got to fight against all forms of prejudice, but anti-Semitism goes to the roots of the democratic society, which we treasure. You know, Deborah, it's an excellent point that I think, you know, more people need to internalize because most of us are against different forms of discrimination.

because most of us are against different forms of discrimination. But as an academic, as someone who's been a professor for a long time, why do you think it seems like younger generations of Jews have a very different view of Israel than their parents? And I want to follow that up by asking about the growing BDS movement and what it's about, which is boycott, divestment and sanctions against Israel. And has that contributed to anti-Semitism? I think, first of all, for the parents of many of the young people, they still remember an Israel threat in Israel in 67, you know, where people saying, send us the children, get the 67 you know where people saying send us the children get the you know

are you going to survive the Yom Kippur war and Tebbi words that are code words for for so many Jews about about a much more vulnerable Israel and even those many people today who say yes Israel is stronger Israel is better equipped to fight, but they also know that there's a certain vulnerability. And the younger people don't see that. They see a strong, prosperous nation. And in a very sort of black and white, you know, no nuance view of the situation, they see a wealthy, prosperous nation that to them, and that's, I'm borrowing the term, is subjugating another people. Would I want to be a Palestinian living in the West Bank, Judea, Samaria, occupied territories, whatever you want to call the place. It's the same geography, same place.

Google Maps will lead you to the same place. No. But is it a genocide? Of course not. And you hear that very much. So you hear these kind of things. And universities are inherently liberal places and they challenge the status quo. And that leads me sort of to the BDS movement.

I think that the BDS movement, when it was founded, and those who founded it, if you go back to its originating documents, which are available online, you see a movement whose ultimate goal is the destruction of the state of Israel. There's no question about it. You know, free entry of all refugees. And by the way, the only refugee problem in the world when you talk about Palestinian refugee and the many refugee groups of refugees where it goes from generation to generation

is in this particular conflict, this particular area. So, you know, essentially it calls for all intents and purposes, the destruction of the state of Israel. But that doesn't mean that every young person or even adult who signs onto the BDS movement is an ipso facto, an anti-Semite. And we don't do what we do ourselves a disservice by immediately deciding, oh, you're for BDS. You don't believe, you know, you must be an anti-Semite. For some people, and again, I'm differentiating between the originators and some of the

adherents, it's a way of trying to change a policy, just like a previous generation tried to change and successfully helped change, they of course didn't do it alone, and successfully helped change, they of course didn't do it alone, the discriminatory apartheid policy in South Africa. We're going to boycott you and this will force Israel, we're going to divest from you and this will force Israel to change its policies vis-a-vis the Palestinians. So it becomes a sort of code kind of word. And there is, you know, students as smart as they may be and on some of the best campuses, they also sometimes can be like lemmings. You know, I don't know if you watch the Netflix series, The Chair, but you see that there where a inept, you know, white professor does something silly in class, imitating a scene from a movie in which he's doing the Heil Hitler, and immediately the students label him as a fascist. There's a tendency, nuance gets lost, nuance gets lost. And as you know, I've had the privilege of being

nominated by the president for a special envoy in the State Department. And should I be confirmed, one of the things I hope to do is to bring back an attention to nuance, to an understanding of the terrible threat this is, and try to inject some nuance into understanding not only the threat that it is, but how we might fight it. You know, Debra, you mentioned quickly in passing, which I think is very important, that you were sued by a Holocaust denier, David Irving, and went on trial. And, you know, I'm sure that was a very difficult part of your life. I would encourage our listeners to watch the film Denial with Rachel Weisz, because I think it's a very moving film and she portrays you in that film. I'm wondering what you would say to people if they want to take an active role in combating anti-Semitism, what can people do? What can your average person do?

Yeah, it's a great question, Jay. First of all, we have to become the unwelcome guests at the dinner party. I often depict, you know, you come for Thanksgiving dinner, we've gotten through the Jewish holidays, the next thing on the calendar is Thanksgiving or Hanukkah, who knows what comes first anymore? But you arrive for Thanksgiving dinner and your host or hostess or whoever meets you at the door and says, listen, Uncle XYZ is here. And you know he's a flaming homophobe, racist, anti-Semite, whatever it is. Please don't get into a fight with him. We've worked so hard.

We want it to be a really nice afternoon and evening. You can't do that anymore. You can't sit silently by. You can't sit silently by, A, because it's wrong, what the person is saying is full of hate and venom, and B, because you're telegraphing a message to the other people around the table, particularly the young people, that it's okay to talk like that. And I think the thing to remember, and if anything, my studies of the Holocaust has taught me this, it all begins with words. Now, being the unwelcome guest at the dinner party

won't stop this pernicious hatred. We need action on state government levels, state levels, educational levels. We need our educators to recognize its pernicious nature, as I've said a number of times through our time together. But the little things, when you hear something, say something. Now, that means you got to know what to say, and you got to educate yourself. So maybe start by educating yourself what it is, what's wrong with it, why it's dangerous. That's why I wrote my book, as you mentioned, on anti-Semitism, my most recent book on anti-Semitism. I wrote it as a series of letters to a student and a colleague, because I wanted it to be accessible. I wanted to give people

some of the tools for trying to fight it. It's not easy. Too often, you will think of the perfect thing to say at one o'clock in the morning, when you've had the incident the previous evening, you'll sit both upright in bed and say, that's what I should have said in the moment just passed. But one day, you'll get it right. And we need that. we we can't we won't eradicate it it's the oldest hatred but we can try to control it and to make people sensitive to its its hate its dangers yeah i do want to encourage my listeners to read your latest book called anti-semitism here and now because i think it's it's a very powerful book. And it is an important conversation to have, both with an imaginary colleague and student, and I think it's very

powerful. Let me end by asking you, some European countries have considered Holocaust denial hate speech, and have made that illegal. Do you think the United States should be going in the same direction as these countries? I'm not a lawyer and I don't play a lawyer on TV, but I don't think we can because there's freedom of speech. And freedom of speech makes that very difficult. But what I like to say is people, first of all, have the right to their own to say things. Holocaust denial is not an opinion. It's a lie. I have a TED Talk on that.

Go look at my 15-minute TED Talk where I explore exactly that. They have a right to speak, but we don't have to give them a microphone. They have a right to speak, but we don't have to provide a platform. I don't debate deniers because they are haters and they are liars. I will talk to someone who has been influenced by denial and who I think I can show the lies, but I wouldn't get into a debate. They're not an other side. And that's something we have to recognize.

Deborah, it's been a pleasure having you as my guest on All Inclusive. You've made such an impact on many of our lives. And I know you're going to go on and continue to have a tremendous impact on our world and our country. So thank you so much. I wish you much luck and success going forward. Thank you, Jay. And I appreciate this chance.

And you do a great job on this program in preparation. I listened to a lot of the podcasts and you're good. Thank you. Thank you so much. Take care. Bye. Take care. Bye. All Inclusive is a production of the Ruderman Family Foundation. Our key mission is the full inclusion of people with disabilities in all aspects of society. You can find All Inclusive on Apple Podcasts, Google Play, Spotify, and Stitcher. To view the show notes, transcripts, or to learn more, go to rudermanfoundation.org slash allinclusive.

Have an idea for a podcast? Be sure to tweet at Jay Ruderman.