All About Change - Fat Activism and the Fight for Social Justice

Episode Date: November 1, 2021

You might know Sean Taylor from the first season of the highly addictive Netflix reality show “The Circle”, in which contestants rate each other based on their profiles and interactions on a fake social media network. When Sean came on the show mid-season, she catfished her fellow contestants into thinking she was a straight-sized woman. After revealing her true self, Sean quickly became a body-positive icon for people everywhere.   Listen to hear Sean break down fat activism and discuss how she inspires her almost 200k followers to radically love and accept themselves.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

All Inclusive, a podcast on inclusion, innovation, and social justice with Jay Ruderman. Hi, I'm Jay Ruderman, and this is All Inclusive, a podcast focused on inclusion, innovation, and social justice. and social justice. Sean Taylor had a successful career in plus-size fashion when she landed a role on the highly addictive Netflix reality show The Circle, in which contestants rate each other based on their profiles and interactions on a fake social media network. their profiles and interactions on a fake social media network. When Shawn came on the show mid-season, she catfished her fellow contestants into thinking she was a straight-sized woman. When she took the brave step of revealing her true self, Shawn quickly became a body-positive icon for people everywhere. Since her debut on The Circle, Sean has become a plus-size influencer

and advocate where she uses her platform to break down diet culture, share plus-size styling tips, and inspire her almost 200,000 followers to radically love and accept every inch of themselves. Sean, welcome to All Inclusive. Why don't you start by telling us, for those who don't know, what was your big break into becoming a successful body positive advocate and influencer that you are today? So it kind of came out of the blue for me. I really got a message one day from someone from casting that was like, hey, you should audition for the show. And I was like, well, okay. So when I went on the show, I thought a lot about how I would want to approach this. And I was previously working as a social media manager at a plus size fashion company. So

I've seen some of like the worst of the worst of what the internet has to throw at people my size. So I brought that life experience to the table. And I really wanted to start a conversation about how, you know, like body shaming and fat phobia is such a problem online. So I decided to go in catfishing as a thinner friend of mine. And then eventually, spoiler alert, but it happened like two years ago, I revealed myself to the rest of the house. And that's something that just like ended up really resonating with a lot of people. And I got some really amazing responses from all over the world. And now I just kind of have my own little body positive community online. And that's what they do full time. So I, I did binge watch the circle.

And I'm not a reality TV person, but it is addictive. And, and I really enjoyed it and what you did with it. And we'll get into that in a little while. But I want to start focusing on your activism and maybe going back to what it was like growing up as a plus size child in the 90s and a decade that was associated with terms like thinspiration? Growing up, I was not only the largest kid in my grade, I was also the tallest kid in my grade. And I went to Catholic school. And I love my parents, and they're super supportive of what I do. And they've had a lot of growth. But my parents were totally, like so many other people really sucked into the dieting of the late 90s and early 2000s. So it was a lot of messages from all around me that were like, you know, my body was just wrong for a myriad of reasons. And that's something that I carried with me really

like well into college, I was constantly on kind of just like a hamster wheel of diets. It wasn't until really, I started to find body positivity online. And I was just seeing people talk about things that like, it's like, I've always known, like in my heart to be true. Just hearing for the first time that like, hey, maybe like, you didn't fail these diets, maybe these diets like aren't set up to actually get the success that you're looking for. Maybe like, you're not imagining it that people have some, I don't know, like biased and even hateful views about fatness. So that was like the first time that I really started looking at, you know, like, what are the beliefs that I actually hold about myself? And how are they affecting my life? And at that

time, I was actually going to school for acting in college. And, you know, I was always having to play like someone's mom or like the funny fat friend. And it just seemed like I was always having to make myself fit a very specific mold or there was an expectation to lose weight you know really body positivity fat activism that just kind of like lit a fire under me in a way that acting didn't so I thought I would be moving to New York to pursue acting and instead I was like it was a time where like Ashley Graham was like you know just on like Sports Illustrated and things were just exploding in plus size fashion. And so I ended up moving to New York to just try to become a part of this moment any way that I can. Yeah. And then I ended up in plus size fashion and then ended up on The Circle.

So the organization that I run, the Ruderman Family Foundation, we've done a lot in terms of the authentic representation of disability in entertainment, working with studios. And I see that there is a trend among many different facets of society to have more authentic representation. But I was wondering, what do you feel about the current representation of plus-size people on screen, what do you feel about the current representation of plus size people on screen, on TV and in film and in general in the entertainment industry? Well, there's been so much improvement in the past like five years, you know, like even just, I just mentioned Ashley Graham being on Sports Illustrated, like that's, that was such like a huge moment it felt like but since then there have been so many more like plus-size people in media and also a variety of stories being told um but I still think that

there's still a long way to go obviously I think um I don't know if it's still accurate today, but at least I remember hearing the statistic in like 2016, it had to be that it was like 67% of women were a size 14, 16, 14 or larger, but were only represented in 2% of media. That's a big problem. percent of media, that's a big problem. And I think we're like, we're making some headway. But especially I mean, as someone who is on reality TV, like that's definitely like a whole genre that has like a long, long way to go. But I've been excited by you know, like shows like shrill, Nicole Byer on nailed it. There's definitely like some huge progress that just making tremendous difference. And so how do you feel about the use of fat suits? Are they harmful to the representation of plus size people? Totally. Yeah. I mean, I'm heartened by the fact that like, this is a conversation that is like being had, where I feel like when I was growing up in the early 2000s, like it was just often like a comedic

device that like wasn't really thought twice about. And now I think people are starting to like, I don't know, dig a little bit deeper. The reason why like I would say that it's like harmful mainly is because fat people are your neighbors and your friends and your sisters and your co-workers, but you don't see them on TV and in movies. And instead to see someone else creating or projecting what they perceive that experience to be. I just think like it is something that we should let go of because there are tons of talented people that don't need to wear fat suits to play a fat person. So I have noticed more and more advertisements

that have plus size models in them for mainstream brands. And, you know, for example, like I like Bomba socks and I just clicked on an ad that I got and, you know, there were plus size models and I sent it to Jackie, who I work with in the foundation. And I don't know, do you think that there is a trend that there's a shift in perception of plus sized bodies? Oh, yeah. Well, so I think specifically when it comes to advertising, that one's a little

bit complicated, just because I think it's come to a lot of consumers attention, post racial justice reckoning, that like a lot of brands were really called out for the fact that they were using really inclusive models and advertising, but their company makeup, their policies don't actually look anything like that. And I think specifically a lot of plus-size consumers are probably familiar with the experience of seeing a model that's like a bit more curvy or plus size. And, you know, then going clicking on the website, checking out their offering and realizing there's actually nothing that's my size, or if there is, there's maybe like a couple things. And they're in like black and navy you know and it's really disappointing so

again we've made so much progress the fact that you are seeing plus size models and advertisements but what gives me pause at least is I hope that or I'd like to encourage what you would call maybe like not plus size or is straight size. So people who like aren't fat or were less than a size 14. I hope that people who consider themselves allies or want to do like just more work in terms of body inclusivity, that they don't see something like that and say, okay, check, they're perfect, they're doing a great job moving on. It still requires like a little bit of a deeper dive to say like, okay, this brand is like, really walking the walk, not just talking the talk. So I'm excited by this,

but I'm also weary of brands just kind of like, using an inclusive model for like an image, but not necessarily having any willingness to change anything about their company. So I just want to ask you about the term straight size, because it wasn't a term before, you know, I prepared for talking to you that I that I had heard, but maybe you can talk a little bit about what that term means. Yeah, yeah. So straight size is kind of just like you could think like the opposite of plus size. That is a term that's primarily used in the fashion industry. So there's your straight size assortment, and then there's your plus size assortment. I think the reason why, size assortment. I think the reason why, especially in like fat activist spaces, why the term straight size is used, even though it was primarily like used to designate clothing size, is because I

think a lot of people don't identify with the word thin necessarily. I think clothing is like, probably one of the most obvious benchmarks of systematic difference and experience between thinner people and fatter people. And so the term straight size, I think it can kind of like, let people's guard down a little bit. And instead of saying like, oh, well, like I don't have a supermodel body. So like I struggle too. Instead it's like, okay, well let's take a step back, walking into a mall and not having a single article of clothing be able to fit me. That's not an experience I have. So let me maybe sit down and listen here. Does that make sense? I think it does.

Let me ask you the big question about how did we get to this point? Because I don't think in the history of the modern world, we were always at the point where a very thin woman or man was seen as like, according to, you know, the commercial world, the ideal body type, but we got there somehow. Because if you look back in history, I think there were points in time where a full size body was celebrated as being the way that we would look at a body. But how do we get here where we're looking at super thin? In fact, we talked about going back into the 90s, waif thin people being super attractive. I'm not an expert on this, but a lot of this does come from like Eurocentric Puritan ideals and separating ourselves from people who are other people who are different. And when we like look at size diversity in our country, people who are poor, people who are black and brown a lot of those demographics are larger

people it's definitely like not by accident that we've gotten here i think it's just kind of like a tangled web of various oppressions that this is kind of where we are today what's your message to brands who um are still making excuses and and are still excluding plus size models from their branding? I think more so than even excluding people from their branding, I think just excluding an entire customer base as a whole is just like a huge misstep. When people will hear maybe someone who is talking about body positivity or fat activism or fat acceptance or whatever it is for the first time, they'll be like, oh, so, you know, just like being confident, like just be more confident. And like, that's the whole issue. But really, this is a much larger feminist social justice issue. I mean, when we think about the fact that, like I said, 67% of women, that's two thirds of women in America, when they go into a store, they don't know if they're going to find something

their size. And a lot of times these brands, I would say this experience is actually like worse than that statistic sounds because just because a brand might carry your size doesn't mean that they carry your size in store. So let's say you suddenly have a job interview, or you suddenly have to represent yourself in court, and you can't find anything appropriate that fits you. That's a problem. And then we have our own internalized attitudes about, you know, fat people and their character, combined with the fact that maybe someone couldn't find anything appropriate to wear, like you're seriously at a disadvantage in those situations. I think like brands are

starting to wake up to the fact that they are leaving out a huge market and they're ready to collect those dollars. I think something that I would really love to see when brands want to make that pivot towards inclusivity is that they are ready to really make a longer term investment. I like compare it to the fact that like, if every single day at school, there's like the cool kids table, and like, they don't let you sit with them. But like one day you can sit with them, but no one tells you that. Like you're not just going to like walk over and sit down at the table. Or maybe they tell you, but they've always been mean to you and they never hang out with anyone that looks like you. You're not going to feel real comfortable sitting over there.

So my point there is that like these brands have to do some serious work in order to win the trust of these consumers. And I think a lot of companies want to, you know, put in like kind of, I don't know, not so great work out there and assume that people are going to be lining up out the door and it just doesn't, it doesn't work that way. Right. That's an excellent point. You know, you're, you're a celebrity now and you're in the spotlight. I want to talk a little bit about bullying and your focus on your own mental health because you're out there advocating. You're very public. I'm sure you get a lot of, you know, trolls bullying you.

How do you deal with it? Um, I not great all the time, to be honest. I think, um, you know, something that I've really tried to, um, embrace and also, you know, be vulnerable with my audience about, you know, I think as more, there's been more fat representation in media, there's almost kind of like this trope of like, like, I love Lizzo, for example, but I think there's like a, a one dimensional version of fat representation, which is that like, confident queen, you go curvy queen, you know, when you know, people just have like, no one thinks that the sun shines out of their butt 24 seven, you know, like everyone has down days, especially when you can be receiving harassment online. And, you know, there's I would love to be able to just stand up and be like, oh, don't

let it get to you. Just don't let something like that get to you. Just be confident. You're amazing. Love yourself. But it's normal and human to be affected by the things that people say. And I think it's an unrealistic expectation to like assume that some amount of internal work is going to keep you from being affected by the

things that people say. It's okay to have your feelings hurt now and then. And it's okay to need to step away and take a break. I think the biggest lesson that I've learned from this, I know like a lot of people maybe don't feel comfortable talking about body related things with people in their lives. And so they have a lot of community online. But what that means is that like when you receive any sort of like negativity online about your body, you don't necessarily have a go to person in your life to talk about it. And I think talking about what you're experiencing online is such an important part of processing it.

So if you're in a position where you're receiving any sort of bullying or harassment online, just take a step away from the phone. And even if it feels like it's a lot to explain or the people around you won't get it, I promise you, you're going to feel a little bit better if you have a conversation with somebody that you love and trust. Do you ever make an example of the bullying and like point it out to your followers and say, you know, this is what, you know, shaming is all about? Yeah, I definitely sometimes I do use harassment that I get as inspiration for things that I post. And I think in part, that's because I think that content is still very powerful, because a lot of people, when they're having conversations about, you know, size based harassment, we're still having to prove that like, this is a thing that like, this is real, that like the bulk of the conversation is like,

no, that's not true. That doesn't happen. That's not a real thing. Get over it. And so to have like, you know, I don't know, to have the receipts of like, hey, no, this is really inappropriate. And to open up a conversation about it, it takes the power out of what's being said. But also, you know, it's a unifying experience because I know there's someone out there that's probably received the same thing, unfortunately. So maybe you can help educate us. I want to ask you about the word fat. Is it appropriate to use that term? Who can use that term? And are there words that in describing the plus size community that we should definitely stay away from? Yeah, okay. So I have embraced the word fat, I kind of have reclaimed it as a neutral descriptor is kind of what like a lot of

people will say. And that has actually helped me a lot in my kind of like self love and acceptance journey. And that might be kind of confusing to some people because when they hear that word, they kind of like bristle at it. But the reason why is like growing up, I thought that like everyone in my life thought that I was fat in like a bad way, you know, and they were just waiting to use that word against me. And it felt like it was just kind of like living with like, like an anvil over my head that was just like about to drop. And like, I could say things like, you know, curvy, or I'm just a bigger person or fluffy or big boned or whatever you like. But it just felt like I was just trying to cover up the shame and badness of the word fat.

And when I embraced it, it was like, oh, like, I think it meant that I had to really take a look at like, what are the beliefs that I am holding against myself about my body? And unpacking those beliefs, there was just a lot more joy and like freedom on the other side of that. So I really encourage people to try to unpack those uncomfortable thoughts and beliefs and feelings around the word fat. And that I totally get that that's not something that's going to happen overnight. But when I hear someone in my life say the word fat in a neutral context, I'm actually like really happy and I feel like really comfortable with this person because I'm like, oh, I know you're thinking about this and you're doing that work and you want to show me that. So I feel like tips that I would have for someone in terms of like using the word fat. One, like I wouldn't, I think like people's first thought is like, well, I would never walk up to someone and say like, hey, you're fat. And it's like, well,

why would you walk up to anyone and say like, hey, you're whatever body size, like in any context, that's like not really appropriate. So you don't have to do that. And I wouldn't do that. And I think like I would encourage people to take cues from people around them and like the larger people around them. I would never assert onto anyone like, oh, no, this is the word that you're supposed to use. Like, that's not definitely not appropriate, especially in

if you're in a smaller body saying to someone in a larger body, if someone else wants to say they're fluffy, curvilicious, like, cool. That's, that's you. That makes you happy. That's great. If you are like, man, this word just like really isn't comfortable for me to say, something that I would really encourage is, I think it's, it's easier to incorporate the word fat in a neutral way. One, if you're talking about the fat experience kind of like as a whole, you know, like talking to someone in your life, maybe not a fat person, just like another straight sized person in your life and saying like, oh, I was reading, you know, this article and they were saying, you know, fat people get paid however much less on than their straight size counterparts, which is a statistic somewhere.

That's a helpful way. It can also be helpful maybe talking to like another straight size person in your life or whoever to incorporate fat as a neutral descriptor. descriptor if you were saying something like, you know, oh, yeah, we have this teacher and she's like, just a super cool, stylish, fat lady. I think it's like, it's easier when you're incorporating some other descriptors that are clearly like positive that you're like, okay, wait, this is this is neutral and people around you know that it's neutral. So yeah, those are just like a couple tips, but definitely defer to the people around you. Right.

So let's get back to the circle because it really propelled you, I think, into another level of recognition. Just for those who haven't seen it, let's give a little bit of a synopsis about what the show was, what it was set up to be. Yeah. So Netflix, I think, has been doing a lot more reality TV. It was actually a show that first started in the UK and it blew up. And so Netflix scooped it up and started doing it for some different countries, the US being one of them. It really, like I said, it's just this like, reality game show that is a competition where you want to be essentially the most liked person at the end of the game you applied for the show and and and you got on it um tell me about your strategy about pretending to be your friend colleen yeah um instead of your real self.

Actually, your bio was you, but the picture you used was of your friend Colleen. Yeah. So I wanted to be myself as much as possible, but I also wanted to be true to my own life experience. And that is that I don't really trust that any room that I am walking into is going to be free of fat phobia. So especially when $100,000 are on the line, you know, like I said, working for a plus size fashion company in social media, I've just seen terrible, terrible, unprompted comments from strangers online, just in response to just seeing a fat person. I thought a lot about like, okay, what would,

what would really make an impact? And, you know, I took that very seriously. I don't know, I thought that probably like a lot of people would relate to this, but also it would spark a lot of conversation in terms of who really gets to fully be themselves risk free, and who has to be a bit more thoughtful in terms of how they share their lives and their truth. And so yeah, so I chose to use pictures that weren't mine from a thinner friend. And then ultimately ended up revealing to everyone who I actually am. Right. So that's the part I wanted to get into. And it was a very, I think, poignant part of the show. What made you, while you were in the show, decide to reveal who you are and to put a picture of yourself as you are?

So I knew that if I could find people in the circle that I trusted, then I would want to share that with them. You know, I think a lot of times, I don't know, like, I think a lot of fat people have had the experience of like, people will meet you and they just like, they don't see past your size or who you are. They just like, don't really have the imagination for the fact that you could be a very talented or smart or funny or cool person. It's just like, oh, you're just big, you know. And so I wanted people to really see me and who I was before making an assumption about my size. So, and I also, I thought a lot about the fact that, you know, I didn't want people, especially young people to watch the show

and walk away with the message that, you know, if you look like Sean, then you should just hide that fact. I wanted to be honest about my life experience, which is that, you know, like, it's not always nice out there being in a larger body online. But at the same time, embracing who I am, is an extremely powerful thing. is an extremely powerful thing. And so when the contestants that you did reveal yourself to, I remember their responses and they came back and they said, you're absolutely beautiful. And what was that experience like to you? Was it surprising or uplifting or both? I thought it was nice. I don't know. I think when they responded that way, I think there's kind of like a gut reaction that's kind of like, oh, well, like, you know, you're great. Like, you didn't have to do that. And I think like, yeah, of course, like, I didn't have to, but like, it also is, you know, just based, again, based on my life experience,

like, it just doesn't always, it doesn't always feel very safe, you know, fully being yourself. So I, I was glad that people were willing to kind of like really hear the truth of that and, you know, embrace the fact that like, okay, I see that her being herself maybe took a bit more courage. So after you revealed yourself, there were articles all over the internet, you know, hailing you as a body positive icon. Can you talk about that experience and what it was like for you? And also, was there backlash? Yeah, so there was definitely a mix of, especially in the show prior to me revealing myself, some people had negative opinions. But also, like, it was funny, a lot of those people actually weren't

fat. And I had a lot of people who were be like, you know, I know exactly why you did what you did, because like, this is, I realized I'm doing this in some way or another all the time in my life. And I think that's who I really did this for. So it was really amazing. I mean, just to have, I don't know, all of it was really kind of like beyond anything that I could have imagined. And as someone who is like, was already like hyper online, and really engaged in fat positive spaces to have people that I've looked up to throughout the majority of my adult life, like know who I am and recognize anything that I have done and say, you did a good job. I mean, that was beyond validating. Watching the show and seeing that you're in an apartment

and there are cameras following you all over the place. I would find that very intimidating. But what were your hopes and fears going into the show? Well, being on reality TV, no matter who you are, is pretty scary, especially because you just don't know how they're going to end up editing things. And so that was like the real scary part was just like, okay, I'm going to film this, but then who knows how it'll all turn out. And it's also just very intense having the experience, you know, with social media where you can see the world kind of responding to you in real time.

So a lot of feedback on yourself to get at once. in real time. So a lot of feedback on yourself to get at once. So after the circle, your social media presence grew tremendously. And maybe you could talk a little bit about the mission of your platform. Yeah. So it's a little cliche probably at this point, but the phrase be who you needed when you were younger is just like a really big motivator for me. And above anything, I want to be a person in a place online where people just know that they're not alone in whatever they're dealing with. And, you know, I talk a lot about fashion. I talk a lot about clothes. Since I've worked in Plus Size Fashion, I talk a lot about finding specific pieces and really getting nitty gritty

into how to find stuff that really fits you. And then also I just like share fun things in my day-to-day life, including my dog. Dogs are wonderful. I have my own teddy. So what can straight size allies, what role can they play in helping to combat fat phobia? Yeah. So I think the biggest thing is to, I think the first step is being honest with yourself about whatever beliefs you might be holding against yourself, where your value lies, where your worth lies, what is valuable or

a flaw about yourself. Because I think so much of how we treat other people stems from how we feel about ourselves. And as someone who will get a lot of messages, I can see very quickly when someone is responding to me in a way that is like, something about me living my life and being happy in the body that I'm in was just very triggering because of whatever mean beliefs you're holding against yourself. So the first step is to really be doing that work. I would say another step is to really try to diversify the type of media that you're consuming. And on social media, that's super easy. you know, like unfollow the people that have the toxic diet related beliefs and just start following and liking a couple more people that have something different to say. And then next, like, again, social media makes it very easy in this regard. Like if there's a brand or some kind of media or something that you think isn't doing things right, as someone who is a social media manager, I mean, those companies care about that and they listen to that. So

if there's something that you think isn't right, even just a comment can definitely make a difference. Right. Exactly. You talked about your experience on the circle. It reminded you as coming out as fat to your family and friends. Can you talk about what that was like? of like an experience that a lot of fat people have had where you might be in relationships with people in your life who are constantly operating with you under the impression that you want to lose weight, that you are in the process of trying to lose weight, that you're unhappy with where you are now, and that you're like desperate to change. And I think at some point, you know, in my journey, I had a conversation, various conversations with people in my life that were just like, you know, hey, actually, this is I think who I am. I dieted throughout all my childhood, I don't see this changing. And you know, like when you say X, Y, or Z, that, you know, that kind of hurts. And so it, I was surprised by how being on the circle, it just felt very vulnerable and bringing me back to that moment, because it is a very vulnerable

thing to say, like, hey, I am maybe not what you expected. but I do want you to still give me a certain amount of respect and kindness. Right. So Sean, I want to ask you a question that's very personal to me because I have four teenagers. Yeah. And the people around us really shape how we see ourselves, but what advice would you give to parents or adults to create an environment of self-love and not based on shame? Well, I think specifically when it comes to our bodies, I think children are so, and young people are so perceptive and they catch on to what you're doing and how you talk about yourself and how you talk about the people around you. They pay attention to the media that you're consuming. So I think it's really important to be extending that radical acceptance and kindness towards yourself. And I think kids really notice and pay attention to that.

So can you talk maybe a little bit about some people that you feel your favorite plus size influencers, writers, filmmakers? Yeah. Well, if you haven't heard of her, I really love Aubrey Gordon. She went under the pen name, your fat friend for a long time. She's written in like a ton of incredible articles and a book. And I would say probably is like one of the like thought leaders, like true thought leaders of this moment right now. And she also has a podcast that I really love called maintenance phase that is really about like unpacking a lot of I don't know, the diet and wellness industry that I just, I've learned a lot. And also just like, I think they're really fun and entertaining. And that's definitely my favorite and probably one of the best like

entry points for anyone who's looking to learn more on this topic. What about some of your favorite organizations that are working to tackle fat phobia? I really love Project HEAL. So Project HEAL is a organization that is working to help people with disordered eating. Unfortunately, a lot of the disordered eating space is really exclusive of fat people and fat people deal with eating disorders as well. I think when a lot of people think of disordered eating, they think like, oh, that's just something for like, you know,

rich, thin, white, high school girls, you know, like they don't think of just people in larger bodies, or people, different races, different socioeconomic backgrounds, different genders. This organization is doing a lot just to make sure that people who need it are getting care and also just provide additional education. So what's the advice that you would give to your younger self now where you are in life? I think something that I feel like I'm reminded of over and over again in life is that, you know, what's kind of like, you know, when one door closes, another one opens, like, whatever the boy or the part in the play or whatever it is that rejected you, it just wasn't meant for you. And that like, something better is truly around the corner. So don't go, you know, changing yourself, try to trying to like appease whatever that thing that is going to let you truly be you and truly shine is out there. So just stay really true to that. And finally, Sean, what's next for you?

What are your hopes and dreams and what are your plans that you can reveal at this time to us? Yeah. Well, I recently moved. I lived in New York City for five years. I just moved. I grew up in Virginia. I'm currently living in Richmond, Virginia. And one of my big words for 2021 was community. I recently started an in-person and digital community called RVA Fatties. And we had one of our first meetups. And I think I just want to be creating, you know, I've been so fortunate to have so many, go to so many spaces and events where, you know, people who looked like me were being celebrated, and I didn't feel, you know, other, and that did wonders for my own personal growth. And so I just want to be able to give that to other people in my community.

Could you see yourself getting into acting, modeling, maybe creating your own brand? I could definitely see myself doing that down the road. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I want to wish you a tremendous amount of luck. This was such a pleasure talking to you. I learned so much and just want to wish you a great year ahead. Oh, thank you so much. Thank you for having me. Thank you. Be well. All Inclusive is a production of the Ruderman Family Foundation. Thank you. Be well. and Stitcher. To view the show notes, transcripts, or to learn more, go to rudermanfoundation.org slash allinclusive. Have an idea for a podcast? Be sure to tweet at Jay Ruderman.