All About Change - Is Antisemitism Part of American Politics?

Episode Date: November 29, 2021

For Jewish communities around the world, there is no name more synonymous with the fight against antisemitism than Abe Foxman. Born in Poland in 1940, Abe survived the Holocaust when his parents entrusted him to their Catholic nanny. He would go on to spend three decades as the National Director of the Anti-Defamation League (ADL), speaking out against antisemitism and bringing it to the forefront of American minds. Throughout his career, Abe has written four books and made the ADL a household name through his relationships with prominent figures like President George W. Bush, Pope John Paul II, President Obama, and many more.  Please join us for Part II of a special series on antisemitism. Listen as Jay and Abe discuss his personal Holocaust story, his unparalleled career, and his take on antisemitism in America today.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

All Inclusive, a podcast on inclusion, innovation, and social justice with Jay Ruderman. Hi, I'm Jay Ruderman, and this is All Inclusive, a podcast focused on inclusion, innovation, and social justice. and social justice. For Jewish communities around the world, or those who have consistently battled against the uprise of religious persecution, there is no name more synonymous with the fight against antisemitism than Abe Foxman. Born in Poland in 1940, Abe survived the Holocaust

when his parents entrusted him to their Catholic nanny, who baptized him and raised him as her own son. After the war, Abe reunited with his parents and immigrated to the United States at age 10. In 1965, after obtaining his law degree, he joined the Anti-Defamation League. Abe would spend the next 50 years with them, 28 as its national director, devoting his professional career to educating the world on combating anti-Semitism. Throughout his career, Abe has been a trusted authority on anti-Semitism in the United States and worldwide by prominent

figures like President George W. Bush, Pope John Paul II, President Barack Obama, and many more. Abe, so good to see you, and it's an honor to welcome you to my podcast, All Inclusive. I hope you're well. I hope cold is well. It's good to be on. Good to see you again. So let's jump right into it. How would you describe the current state of anti-Semitism in America and around the world? I would say it's serious, but not critical. It's always been there. It's always been out there. The difference today is we're more aware of it. We're aware of it because it's more covered in the media, because of the internet, because it's being politicized. But basically, the disease has

always been there. It's been contained at times, it's been underground, but it's always been there. Today, it's a lot more public. In the United States, there is one significant difference. No Jew has been killed in the United States because he's a Jew for 100 years. Since Leo Frank was lynched in Atlanta in 1915, no Jew has died in this country because he was a Jew. That's a major change. That's a serious trauma to the American Jewish community, and I would hope to the American public that even in this country, a Jew is not immune from being hurt or killed because of his faith. So in terms of that anti-Semitism is not

worse than it's been since the Holocaust in America, but you're seeing more physical attacks and more killings than we've ever seen in the past. Well, we're seeing killings. I'm not going to say more killings. We're seeing killings for the first time in 100 years. The other thing is, again, anti-Semitism is more public. Because of the internet, there's more of it. It's more visible. Look, I was with the ADL for 50 years. Every year, we issued reports on anti-Semitic incidents. Every year we did studies on attitudes. They were always there, but nobody cared. Nobody covered it. Today, it's more in the news. Again, I said, because it's politicized. There's a political interest to hype it a little bit, but the threat has always been

there. I think when we realized, those of us dealing with the subject many years ago, that it's a disease without a vaccine, without an antidote, we developed a strategy, what I would call a containment strategy. Put all the pieces together to set up a firewall to make sure that it's latent, to make sure that it's not acceptable. It's worked. It's all about the last five or ten years where the firewall dissipated. Look, we had a containment policy, which was a combination of a consensus in this country of what's right and what's wrong. We had coalitions. We used litigation, legislation, coalitions. All these things together work.

Sometimes in one area with exposure, we use the media. We use truth. Anti-Semitism, at the end of the day, is the big lie. It's the big lie about who the Jews are, what they are, what they believe, what their aspirations are, what their history is. And we use truth to answer that lie. Sadly, truth is gone today. You know, in the last five or six years, the political establishment has destroyed truth. So we've lost an element of response. The media, we used to use newspapers to answer the big lie, to tell the truth. And again, media today doesn't have the

credibility, the stature, the strengths, the power to respond to the anti-Semitism. So again, it was always there. It's still here, but the environment has changed, dramatically changed. And because there is no civil consensus about civility today. So let me talk to you on that vein about leadership. Many of the people who are leading the world today, who have led the world in the past, are people that you've interacted with. Biden is the president right now. You know Biden. You've had interactions with him. Do you feel that in terms of support for the Jewish community, responding to anti-Semitism, he's where he should be? Yeah, I think in most democratic

countries, the difference in the past is that the democratically elected leadership is ready to speak out on anti-Semitism. You know, especially if you look at Germany and Merkel, look where Merkel is on the issue. She's been out there, she's been outspoken, she cares, she raises her voice, and you find that in most democratically elected countries. So there is a shift from 100 years ago, from 50 years ago, 70 years ago, where there was silence in positions of power. Look, sadly, in the United States, there's still this debate where Franklin Roosevelt was on the issue of the Holocaust. So no, I think if you're talking about Biden, absolutely, he's there. He's spoken, he's acted, he's appointed a new

ambassador on anti-Semitism. I think on most cases, when you see any incident in this country, you see a response from this government, whether it's from Homeland Security, whether it's from the Justice Department, whether it's from the Secretary of State, it's there, and that's his leadership. So that is not a problem. The problem is our general environment and to what extent his words impact? That's really the question. So let me dig a little bit deeper on that. The last four years, the last administration, things seem to get worse. And I don't know if you met Trump personally or had any dealings with him. I know you're a lifelong or most of your life in New York. He's a prominent New Yorker. It seemed to me that there were dog whistles out there. Close to the Jewish community, obviously, his daughter is Jewish, his son-in-law is Jewish. But at the same time, when you had the march in Charlottesville and the slogans, Jews will not replace us, and then afterwards him saying, well, there are good people on both sides. and then afterwards him saying, well, there are good people on both sides.

Were there dog whistles there that were sort of encouraging people who are anti-Semites to come out and be much more vocal about their anti-Semitism? So first, I know Donald Trump. I've known him in New York. I've known him in Florida. Had a relationship. He endorsed one of my books. So we've had a relationship before the presidency, not very much during the presidency. Look, Jay, the 200 neo-Nazis in Charlottesville were there before Donald Trump. He didn't create them. They were there. They were neo-Nazis. They were anti-Semites.

there. They were neo-Nazis. They were anti-Semites. What happened, what one can accuse Trump or blame him for, is he emboldened them. He gave them the legitimacy. These anti-Semites were anti-Semites, but they knew better not to go public. For whatever reason, as I talked about, we had this consensus of civility. And yeah, our constitution permits people to be anti-Semites or bigots, but if you act on it, there are consequences. And so these 200 knew that if they acted out publicly, there'd be a price to pay, whatever, maybe their job, maybe their kid, whatever. They woke up one morning to feel times have changed, that now it's okay to surface, to stand in front of the media to say Jews will not replace us. And they were emboldened by Trump and Trumpism, because what Trump did is he broke all the taboos. You know,

there were taboos in this country, what's right, what's wrong. Sure, you can do it, the Constitution says you can do it, but you'll pay a price. He spoke out in terms of racist terminology, etc., which said basically, if it's okay, and if it's okay for the president, it's okay for some guy from Charlottesville. And so that's the major difference. He's not an anti-Semite. I'm not even sure he knows what it is, even though he's engaged in some stereotypic language. And again, I'm not sure he understands it. He has a daughter who's Jewish, he has grandchildren who are Jewish. I wrote him a handwritten personal letter after Charlottesville. And when he talked about, you know, there are good people on both sides.

And I talked about the impact it would have on his children and his mansion. I didn't get an answer back. But he made it okay, not only about anti-Semitism. I think this atmosphere that all taboos have been broken, you know, applies to Asian Americans, applies to African Americans, applies to African Americans, Latino Americans, the LGBT community. You're seeing a more open, bigoted atmosphere out there. You know, so he let the genie out of the bottle. I think this Biden and this administration is trying to put that, you know, that genie back in the bottle. It will take time. It will take time. So I don't want to dig too much to his psychology, but he did some good things for the state of

Israel. He was close to the state of Israel and obviously to the Jewish people. How do you put that together at the same time, sort of giving a wink and a nod to extremist anti-Semites and at the same time saying, yep, I support the homeland of the Jewish people. You can support Israel and still be an anti-Semite. One does not necessarily obviate the other. And I think from the perspective of the Jewish community, I think we should say thank you to former President Trump for recognizing Jerusalem. We should say thank you for his attitudes, strengthening Israel, etc. But at the same time, we should say, no, thank you for calling

us double loyalists, that we're not loyal enough to this country if we don't support him or his policy. No, thank you for the immigration policies. No, thank you for the racism that you've No thank you for the racism that you've legitimized. And so, you know, I think as a Jewish community, we should be able to walk and chew gum at the same time. Thank you, Mr. Trump, for recognizing Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. But no thank you for the atmosphere of legitimizing bigotry that you've released. Look, there's also this quandary, the Israelis, you ask the Israelis, the overwhelming majority of Israelis like Trump. The overwhelming majority of American Jews don't like Trump. And to me, you know, I explained it very simply. You stand where you sit. Now, where the Israelis sit in terms of their environment, sure to them,

he was a great president. Where American Jews sit, yeah, they like some of the things that he's done. But in terms of the general atmosphere of this country, in terms of democracy, in terms of equality, et cetera, American Jews don't like him. And I think we can deal with both at the same time. at the same time. So before we move to Europe and the rest of the world and anti-Semitism and the role it plays there, talk for a second about your experience and the growth of anti-Semitism on two different spectrums in the United States, on the far right and also at the far left, sort of at the same time. Well, many years ago, over a hundred years ago, Mark Twain went to Europe to give a lecture tour. And he came back from the tour, and he wrote an essay concerning the Jews. Wherever he went, he found anti-Semitism,

and it shocked him. He became a philo-Semite. He became an advocate against anti-Semitism. And he wrote this essay, and he said, you know, smart people and dumb people are anti-Semites, rich and poor, religious and atheist. All walks of life were affected with this disease. And what was true 120 years ago is true today. It's a disease that serves interests, depending on the time, the period, the political environment, the geographic environment. It's a disease that metastasizes to serve interests. And so communists were anti-Semites, fascists were anti-Semites. So we shouldn't be surprised that there's anti-Semitism in the left and there's anti-Semitism in the left and there's anti-Semitism in the right, because what anti-Semitism does is serve certain interests. And blaming somebody else,

scapegoating somebody else, whether for political, for religious, for economic reasons, has always been there. And Jews have been the number one scapegoat in history. And so, yeah, it doesn't surprise me that in our political environment, which is pretty extreme, you find anti-Semitism on the right and you find anti-Semitism on the left. It shouldn't shock us, it shouldn't surprise us. It should make us understand that we're dealing with a disease which still has no antidote and no vaccine. And is anti-Semitism different than being a racist or anti-gay or anti-trans or all the other terrible things that go on in our society where people hate other people? Is there something

distinct about anti-Semitism? Yeah, you know, I think so. It's interesting. I wrote down, I was watching some of the coverage in the Malmo. The Swedish government last week had an international conference on anti-Semitism, and the prime minister opened up, and as a whole, we've been dealing in the last several years on a definition of anti-Semitism. The International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance took six years trying to develop a definition of what anti-Semitism is, which 34 countries have adopted, a lot of organizations, universities have adopted. And when I listened to it, I later looked it up, and I wrote down how he defined the prime minister of Sweden. Sweden has been iffy on relationship with Israel, Jews, et cetera. So it's interesting.

And he basically answers your question. So let me read it. He said, anti-Semitism differs from other forms of racism. It is in itself a conspiracy theory based on the notions of Jewish power and Jewish interest and the secret desire to rule the world. It is a specific toxic form that drives conspiracy theories. So that is quite different than racism in general. Racism basically is, I don't like you because of your color, your ethnicity, maybe your religion, et cetera. But this has very specific ideologies. It's about Jews and money,

Jews and power, Jews and control, et cetera, which was created by the anti-Semitic genre, and it feeds on itself. So yeah, to that extent, it's different. So let's talk about Europe and anti-Semitism in Europe and what form it takes and how it's going, specifically in light of the rise of nationalism recently over the last few years in countries like Poland and Hungary, Austria? How do you see anti-Semitism in Europe right now? Europe, unlike the US, our politics have also been violent. We had a civil war, which we lost 600,000 of our own.

I guess it was economics, but it was politics as well. But unlike the U.S., in Europe, politics and ideology is violent. And so there's always been violence attached to political differences and certainly to isms with a loss of life. I don't think that Europe has totally catharsized its Holocaust experience. I think when you look in certain of the former Soviet Union countries, they still compare communism to Nazism. They still don't recognize, if you will, the horrific uniqueness of the genocide of the Holocaust. Sure, communism fought fascism or Nazism.

The right fought its left. But for ideology, for territory, the Holocaust, you know, Jews had no territory. Jews had no ideology. They were being exterminated because of who they are, what they are, what they believed in. So I don't think Europe has even to this day understood the differences. It's still there. There's guilt, there's ignorance, there's politics. I still worry about what's going on. There was a good sign, I think, out of Czechoslovakia this week, where something interesting happened, which was all the left of center, centrist political parties

came together against the right. And the problem has always been that they splinter and they don't understand the great threat of nationalism and populism. So I think there aren't that many Jews in Europe, but I do worry about their future. And so I'm going to ask you about a controversial issue in Poland. Poland passed a law saying if you equate the Polish people or the Polish government with the Holocaust, you can be prosecuted. Any thoughts on that? That's ridiculous. I have a very, very emotional relationship with Poland.

I was born in Poland. Nice. The time was bad. I survived because of a Polish Catholic woman who risked her life to save me. So there are two parts of the history of Poland during World War II. There's the good part, you know, which is the Bratislava Korpi, the Catholic Polish nanny who risked her life to save me. And there's the other part, you know, which is the Bratislava Korpi, the Catholic Polish nanny who risked her life to save me. And there's the other part of collaboration.

There's a part of Jews being killed after the war in Poland who came back, who survived. So the truth is there's two sides to that story. And to only say that there's only good and to say you cannot talk about the truth, there was collaboration. There was anti-Semitism. There's still anti-Semitism. It's hideous. It's horrific. And I would say it's anti-Semitism again.

So, yeah, look, there is a very serious problem. There's a problem of compensation and restitution. Poland is the only country that was occupied in the Nazi center that has not dealt with the issue of restitution. I think most recently Latvia just publicly said, we will pay compensation to Jews. There is a problem. The problem is that there are some cities that were 50% owned by Jews. You know, you're talking about Lodz, you're talking about Bialystok. I once met a gentleman in Poland who came up with an ingenious approach, because I don't think the Jewish people will

resolve its relationship with Poland unless this issue of restitution is dealt with. But it has to be dealt with in a way that brings a measure of justice without hurting the Polish people. And he came up with an ingenious plan. He said, set a value of what Jewish property was. Let's say it's 10 billion dollars. Symbolically, you give that 1010 billion to the state of Israel, who are the inheritors of those who perished. And then the state of Israel reinvests that $10 billion in Polish industry to create jobs, to change the infrastructure, etc. And the profits of that money goes for Holocaust education or for aid to Jewish children in Israel. And so that nobody gets hurt. So we need some ingenious, creative plan to resolve it. Otherwise, it will haunt our children and grandchildren. So you and I traveled with a group to Poland many years ago in a delegation of leaders of the Anti-Defamation League and

officers of the Israel Defense Forces. And it was a very emotional trip. You touched on this, but maybe you can talk a little bit more about being a child of the Holocaust and your own personal story and the impact that that's had on you for what you've done for your life? Well, I'll share with you, but people have said to me, well, you know, a million and a half Jewish children perish, you survive, you survive so you can do what you do. That's arrogance. That's the height of arrogance. Who knows? Who knows why I survived? You know, when people say, well, because of what happened to you, you spent the last, you know, your adult life fighting prejudice and anti-Semitism. My answer is, well, you know, what about proctologists?

Why does somebody decide? So I'm not comfortable with this cause and effect. I don't know why I survived. And I'm not sure I know why I gravitated to where I gravitated. I started as a chemical engineer in City College, round out in political science, went to law school. And then, you know, then the ADL, I read a book about the ADL and I applied and there was my adult life. All right. So about my beginning, I was born in Poland, 1940. It was a bad time to be born a Jewish kid in Poland.

But I was very, very lucky or miracles, whatever you want to call it. We were in Poland. Some people knew, some people didn't know, some people had means, some people did not. My parents had a sense of what's going on. And so as the war broke out in Poland, they moved east in the hope of staying ahead of the Germans. And they went to Baranovich. Baranovich is where my father was born. Baranovich today is Belarus. And that's where I was born. And then as the war continued or things got worse, my parents decided to continue to move further east. And the Germans caught up

with them in the city of Vilna, which is in Lithuania. They had a nanny, they traveled with a nanny. And when the order went out for the Jews to be herded, assembled into a ghetto, my nanny said to my parents, listen, you go. I'll take care of him. You'll be back in a couple of weeks. So, you know, who knew what it was? My parents made one of the most difficult decisions for any parent to make, and that is to separate from their child. Now, again, they had no idea it was going to be four years. They had no idea what was in them. But it was a fateful decision, which saved my life and indirectly saved their lives.

A, saved my life because she baptized me, protected me, hid me, risked her life every single day doing it. And at the same time, made it possible for my parents to fend for themselves. A family unit of three with an infant had no chance of survival. But acting alone and with the hope of coming back for me, they had a greater chance of survival. And in fact, my mother escaped on an Aryan side. She got false papers. I knew my mother as my aunt. I grew up with her as my aunt. She would provide for us. My father wound up in a partisan group and were reunited finding me. And then things turned a little ugly.

Then my nanny said to my parents, I saved him. He belongs to me and the Catholic Church. And they tried every which way to say, we'll be a family, whatever happens with us, you'll be with us. It didn't impact. She tried to get my father arrested. She got him arrested by the Soviets, said he collaborated and said he steals. They arrested him several times. And then the Soviets said, you have to, you have to litigate this because we can't play family politics. So there was a trial with two appeals.

The court ruled I belonged to my parents. And we were separated. We were repatriated. The Soviets permitted refugees within their empire to go back to where they came from. We went back to Poland. She followed. I was kidnapped. My parents kidnapped me back. And then we smuggled the borders to come to eventually we got to the American zone in

Austria. So as my father would say, at the age of 10, I was an old man, but very lucky. The sad part, Jay, was I never said goodbye to her. I never said thank you to her. I never said goodbye to her. I never said thank you to her. And I remember I couldn't understand if she loved me so much, why was there so much hate and anger? And my father was a very wise man. He said to me, everything in excess is no good. Too rich, too poor, too smart, too stupid, too fat, too skinny,

too much love, too much can turn into hate. And so it's sad because my father smuggled out pictures of us, of her. And when I asked him why he risked smuggling out the pictures, he said, because I wanted to make sure that for the rest of your life you had her face in front of you. And sadly, ironically, Jay, and somebody asked me the question, would you remember? And I don't know. If I hadn't had the pictures, I hope I would, but I don't know. But, you know, so to sum it all up, it's miracles, human miracles. And my father believed God's miracles. And what I did, I don't know why I did it, but I was blessed and lucky and privileged to do what I did for 50 years

on the platform of the Anti-Defamation League. And I understand that despite everything that happened to your family, you still sent packages to your nanny for years until she passed away. Yeah. There was a process called PECA under communism that you can send money in packages. We did. She had to sign for it, but no communication except that she received it. And then we received notice, you know, the package came back because she passed away. I'm still trying to find where she's buried. Try to bring closure, hopefully someday.

Well, Abe, it's quite a life that you had at a very young age, and I think you've turned it into a hugely successful life on behalf of the Jewish people and others. Let me touch on something I think is central in what's going on now with anti-Semitism, I think is central in what's going on now with anti-Semitism. And I'd like to hear your thoughts on the connection between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism, because I hear this debated all the time. It's debated on college campuses. It's debated. I've been caught up on it. If you're a supporter of the state of Israel as the Jewish homeland, and if you're connected to Israel, you're attacked. And I'd like to hear from you.

Are those attacks legitimate or is that anti-Semitism? Let's start with criticism of Israel. Can you criticize Israel and not be an anti-Semite? And the answer is yes, absolutely. There are more critics of Israel, of Israeli policy, in the state of Israel per square kilometer and per square Jew than anywhere else in the world. So it's not a question about criticizing the government, the policies.

Yeah, that's legitimate and it's fine. I do, however, ask a question of people, you know, not Jewish, not in Israel, who criticize Israel. And I ask the question, okay, so you set a certain standard and value. Do you apply this anywhere else? You know, if you think that this is wrong, would you say that this is also wrong in China, in Cuba, in America, in Spain? And if, after a period of time, the only criticism of any government action that somebody is out there is the State of Israel, then at the end of the day, it's not legitimate criticism. It's singling out the Jewish state, singling out Israel for criticism, and that becomes anti-Semitism. But per se,

criticizing the government or its policies, hey, you know what? That's part of democracy. But when it's only focused on what Israel does, and you set certain standards only for Israel, then at the end of the day, it catastrophizes in anti-Semitism. Then we go to Zionism. What is Zionism? Zionism is the national liberation movement of the Jewish people. That's what it is. It says the Jewish people, like all other people, have rights, aspirations for self-determination.

To have its own country, its own flag, its own history, etc., etc., etc. So if you don't like that, again, it could be okay. There are some people in this world who are universalists, who don't like nation states, who don't think anybody should ever be nationalist. That's fine with me. You want to be universalist? God bless you. But if the only nationalism that you don't like is Jewish nationalism, if the only country that has no right, the only nation that has no right

for self-determination to have its own country, its own flag, its own capital, is the Jewish state, well, you're an anti-Semite. So if you don't like Zionism because it's a nationalism, I better not catch you liking Palestinian nationalism or French nationalism. And so what you find is it's just an excuse, it's a euphemism, to try to legitimize their anti-Semitism on a political platform. The INEJ designed this movement, you know, while it was created to, you know, to make the Jewish people normal, like all nations that have their own homeland, their own place, etc., etc., etc., and they thought this would do away with anti-Semitism because part of anti-Semitism is the Jews don't have a place. But if Jews become normal nation with their own country, with their own laws, etc., then

anti-Semitism will disappear. The irony is that what Designist Movement hoped for, in effect, almost provided a platform for anti-Semitism. So in the past, it was Jews can't do this. They can't be lawyers. They can't own land. They can't live here. They can't do this. Now it's about Israel. Israel has become the Jew amongst the nations. So every nation in the world can determine its own capital, except Israel. Every nation in the world has a right to defend itself, except Israel. So every nation can make its own rules, and it's not called racist or apartheid, except Israel. So, you know, you can't criticize Israel if you criticize somebody else.

If you only criticize Israel, then whammo, you're an anti-Semite. And as a child of the Holocaust, what do you think when you hear people say, which I heard during the last war with Gaza, Jews are white colonialists? Well, it's hideous. Look, Israelis compare to Nazis. You know, we see this all the time. So either, one or two things. Either you're ignorant of history, which most of these people are not,

or you're a bigot. To compare Israeli soldiers to Nazi soldiers, et cetera, is hideous. But again, we try to apply reason, logic, rationale, decency to people who don't engage in logical reason, don't care about truth. Listen, I worry more about trivialization of the Holocaust today than I worry about Holocaust denial. Holocaust denial is said, okay, those people say it is, it didn't happen. Trivialization, when you compare mandates on vaccinations to the Holocaust, it undermines, you know, the history. So some of these people,

again, some of these people comparing, you know, the history. So some of these people, again, some of these people comparing, you know, the Holocaust to vaccine mandate, either are totally ignorant of history, or they're totally bigoted. Take your choice. Either one is no good. Do you feel that Jews are under a physical threat, both in the United States and Europe? I would put it this way. I think if you were to say to me, you know, what do we do in fighting anti-Semitism today? I would put number one, security. Security, security, security. I think, again, in the U.S., law enforcement is with us, it's on our side, will protect us, etc. But again, I go back to my years at the ADL. Every year, we would say

to the American Jewish community and to the American public at large, listen, there is a potential. This is a poison that has acted out in violence. So you need to take it seriously. In the last 30 years, you know, since the FBI has been taking inventory, attacks against Jews are number one in America. So we should always take that seriously. And again, since what happened in Pittsburgh and Poway, New Jersey City, where we saw on our soil that we're not immune to Jews being killed because they're Jews. Yeah, I think we should take security very seriously. Then again, I think we need to rebuild a containment policy. I think we need to figure out how to bring back civility into our society because it impacts so disproportionately on us. changed, but probably the most significant element in making anti-Semitism so much more blatant is the internet, social media. Social media and the internet have already destroyed

privacy. They're on the way to destroying civility. It has provided a super highway for bigots, for anti-Semites. You can now transmit anti-Semitic thoughts, conspiracy theories about Jews, lies about Jews, in nanoseconds globally, which you could not have done 30 years ago. 30 years ago, you would publish it, you would put it on a fax machine, you'd have to have a meeting. Maybe you'd give a speech. You'd meet in some bar. You couldn't recruit.

You couldn't communicate this hatred in such a sophisticated manner as you do it today. And it impacts. It means hate is out there. It's all around us in ways it never was. You had to go and seek it out or somebody had to seek you out. Today, it's there whether you want it or not. It comes into your faith. So it's a new challenge.

And it's a very serious challenge because after 9-11, Jay, we struggled how to balance our freedoms, our basic freedoms with security. And we compromised. We used to get on a plane, you know, without any, you know, they're showing your, you know, ticket, that was it. We gave some of those freedoms in order to protect our safety and security. I think we're at a stage in America and in society where we have to figure out how do we balance civility with freedom of speech? Because freedom of speech unfettered, it's like crying fire in a crowded theater. Where is that balance? And I think we're just beginning to deal with it. I don't think that at this moment in time we yet understand how the social media and

internet is impacting on us. Listen, socializing has changed. Dating has changed. How people talk to each other or don't talk to each other has changed. Now, all of that has societal results. Some good. Listen, we can communicate better. We can exchange information.

You resolve fights around the dinner table by asking, you know, what the answer is. So there's some good stuff. There's some fun stuff. But there's also some very, very unintended consequences, which we've seen in the election, which we see in hate, which we see an impact on our children. And we haven't yet begun to figure out how to deal with it. Is it legislation? Is it regulation? Is it from the pulpit? I don't know, but I know that we better start dealing with it soon.

So let me ask you regarding social media. One of the most traumatic incidents that we've had as Americans recently is the attack on the Capitol on January 6th. You saw people in that attack, they were on social media, obviously, people wearing t-shirts that said Camp Auschwitz. Anti-Semitism was part of that. Why? What's the fit there between antisemitism and an attack on the American democratic system? Well, it's the people. Well, listen, the people who gravitate towards populism to supranationalism are people who gravitate to racism and racist theories and white supremacy. So they're white supremacists. racism and racist theories and white supremacy. So they're white supremacists. And white supremacists have a higher level of anti-Semitism than other supremacists. So that really shouldn't surprise us. But, you know, during my years at the ADL, I reached out to Palo Alto. I reached out to the

geniuses who helped create this new world of social media, etc. And, you know, I went, talked to them. And I thanked them for their genius giving us all these wonderful things. But as I indicated, I said, but there are unintended consequences, which are serious. And their answer to me was, algorithms, we can't help, we can't do. And we now know that was BS. We can't help. We can't do. And we now know that was BS. They controlled the algorithms. They moved the algorithms.

So we now know it's within our power to monitor, to control. Now, then the bigger question is, who does it? Do we trust the business people to do it with a profit motive? Do we tell government to do it? I don't know what the answer is, but January 6th, the recruiting was enhanced by social media. The message was enhanced. So it's a serious challenge.

But I'm not surprised, Jay, that you found Camp Auschwitz on January 6th in the Capitol because that's where they come from. That's part of their ideology. That's part of their conspiracy beliefs. So setting aside, you know, what's going to happen with social media and who's going to rein it in, whether it's going to be the social media companies or whether the U.S. government is going to step in or other governments, some European countries have laws that curb anti-Semitism or make it illegal to be outwardly anti-Semitic. Would those laws work in the United States?

No, it's an irony that you point to. Europe has more anti-anti-Semitism, anti-hate laws than you can imagine. The U.S. has none because the Constitution prohibits us from limiting free speech. because the Constitution prohibits us from limiting free speech. Before I got to the ADL, there were efforts to develop a hate law, and it didn't pass constitutional muster several times. So the interesting thing is that what we have, until recently, developed, is in our country, whether there were no laws, there were consequences. You paid a price

for being a bigot. You can be a bigot and lawyers can defend your right to be a bigot. But if you acted in a bigoted way, at the end of the day, you would pay a price, whether it's in politics, whether it's in commerce, whether it's in entertainment, whatever. And to me, whether it's in entertainment, whatever. And to me, the best example that I have is Mel Gibson. Mel Gibson, in time of his career, was number one, number one on People's Choice, number one actor, number one director, producer, you name it.

He was king of entertainment until he exposed himself as a bigot and as an anti-Semite. And that's when it wasn't laws, it wasn't litigation, it was the consequences of the American people saying, that's not America, that's not who we want. And he paid a price. It went from number one all the way to the bottom. And that's what had worked for us. And that was this, if you will, contract of civility, what's right and what's wrong.

So even though the law says to you, yeah, you can be a bigot, but if you were a bigot in the public arena, you paid a price because it was un-American, unacceptable, immoral, unchristian, whatever it was. We've lost that. We've lost that. We've lost that consensus of similar. You know, legislation basically says this is what the American people or New Jersey or Massachusetts believes it. But you still have to have the people accept it. Look, in the ADL, we pioneered hate crimes legislation. And again, very interesting. It was to punish for hate crime. But we were very careful not to make speech or intend a crime, because again, it would not pass constitutional muster. So what does a hate crime legislation mean? There has to be an underlying crime. So if you commit arson for, say, to collect money on insurance,

the penalty is one year in prison and $1,000. But if I can prove that you committed that arson because you didn't want the African American or the Jew or the Hispanic to live next door to you, and you committed arson, the crime, then your punishment is two years in prison and $2,000. So it goes to the penalty, because it says American society so abhors hate that if you commit a crime, which normally is a crime, but if you do it for hate purposes, you will pay a greater penalty. And that goes to the issue of consequences. That, Jay, has worked in our country. It's falling apart. It's falling apart. Because again, truth is gone, right and wrong is gone, the media is gone. All these things worked in a system where you didn't need

legislation to say, you know, don't hit somebody because you don't like him for who he is. But Abe, I think that the point about Mel Gibson is it was your activism and the activism of ADL that called him on the carpet, pointed out his anti-Semitism and really elevated the issue without any legislation. But I think the point you make is that activism is important. It's important to take a stand and to speak up against the anti-Semitism. Well, but there's also something else that's happening. What's happening is people are dealing with it now in a different way. It's called cancel culture. I was always opposed to cancel culture. I believed it was our job to change people's minds and hearts. And you don't do it by cancel culture. What you do is you

remove them, but they're still out there. And so yeah, I tried in my years in public service to try to change people's minds and hearts. There was always at the end of the day consequences if you don't. To be very honest with you, I never personally interacted, you know, with Mel Gibson. They tried every which way, but there was no agreement as to what we're talking about. But society acted. Yeah, we made it public. I spoke out. I challenged. I questioned. But it was the societal response that made the difference. Today, we're not trying to change people's minds and hearts. We want to cancel them out. I think at the end of the day, we're all going to pay a very serious price for that.

So let me ask you, you've been an activist, but you've also, you've had the ear of presidents. You've spoken to presidents like George W. Bush, Bill Clinton, Barack Obama about anti-Semitism. What would you advise the United States or President Biden today? What's the best thing he can do to combat the rise of anti-Semitism in the United States? Number one is protect democracy, first and foremost. Democracy is very important to minorities and certainly to the Jewish people. When there is no democracy, Jews suffer. Number two is to be a bully pulpit.

That's the biggest bully pulpit in the world. The world listens to the president of the United States. And so when he speaks about anti-Semitism, when he speaks about prejudice, when he speaks about those issues, it's very, very important. about prejudice, when he speaks about those issues, it's very, very important. And then, of course, you know, to make sure that the instruments of government follow the message, so that law enforcement and FBI gather the data, that Congress look at the data seriously. There is legislation in certain areas that, you know, there are issues of protections, of security. The community itself, the Jewish community, I think, can afford all the funding that would be necessary to protect all the Jewish institutions.

So there is a role for government, federal and state. And that, again, comes out of a message, comes out of the bully pulpit. I think what the leader, what the president says, what the governor says, what the mayor says does make a difference. And what's important is that they speak out in time, in real time, not wait several days until it moves away. So yeah, I think they have a role. So far, I have no complaints. So I want to ask you about BDS. There is a famous case a couple weeks ago. Ben and Jerry's said, you know, we're going to stop selling our ice cream in parts of Israel. Got a lot of attention. It's a movement that's trying to delegitimize investment in Israeli companies.

What are your thoughts about it? I'm a minority view on the whole subject of BDS. I think BDS, there's no question in my mind that it is anti-Semitism because it attacks the legitimacy of Israel, its being, etc. So I don't have an issue with how we define BDS and that it is anti-Semitic because it says boycott Israel. Israel has no legitimacy. If you boycott it, then it will cease to exist. I have an issue with how serious it is.

And that is, to some extent, I think we have given it more success than it deserves. You know, at the end of the day, all right, so big deal, you know, Ben and Jerry's, big deal. What impact does it have on Israel's security well-being that you had the soda company that was boycotted? After all is said and done, they've had no successes. That means no university has canceled

its relationship with Israel if it had one because of BDS. I recently met with the Prime Minister of Israel, Bibi Netanyahu, then we talked about BDS, and he said, you know what, Abe, I don't have time to go to the bathroom. The country is aligning up. Corporations, they want to do business with us. So, and you take a look, BDS, and now you have the UAE, Bahrain, Morocco. So it's almost ridiculous that we're talking about Ben and Jerry's when Arab Muslim countries are making peace with Israel. So I'm a little concerned that we give it so much attention that it gives us more credibility than it's worth.

The only thing they have achieved is it frightens campuses. You know, campuses, universities don't invite Israelis because they don't want noise. They don't want controversy. There they have succeeded. I mean, we really should fight it. But in terms of impacting on Israel's trade, economy, place in the world, it has had no impact. So let's not give them more credit and more visibility than they deserve. So you raise a good point about college campuses. There's

been surveys that have said that there's a shocking lack of Holocaust knowledge among millennials and Gen Z. How do we turn that around? How do we teach them about the Holocaust and not repeat the mistakes that have been made in history? Well, Jay, I was on a college campus in the 60s. It was the Vietnam days. There was no picnic being pro-Israel and a Zionist on the college campus in the 60s. There was SNCC and CORE, Arab students, and there was swastikas. There was no internet that made it that huge. But today, on the college campus, when it comes to Israel,

there are more college students that have visited Israel than ever. So in my time, there were very few. There are more pro-Israel organizations on the college campus today. In my day, there was Student Zionist Organization and ALL. Today, there's a confederation of organizations on campus. So I don't see the campus as that much of a calamity. When you come to the subject of the Holocaust and knowledge of the Holocaust, we first have to take a look at how we teach history. We don't teach modern history. By the time I finished high school and I went to day school, so it would be different.

But look at the curriculum of public schools and high schools. They don't teach geography and they don't teach modern history. So World War II, most students never get to in high school in the United States, okay? They just don't get to it. And if they get to it, it's very minute, and so the Holocaust doesn't make an impact at all. So I, again, I am not shocked that so many people don't know what Auschwitz or the Holocaust is. I would be shocked if Jewish kids didn't know. But at the same time, I think there are serious efforts to educate. I think there are now 13 states in the United States that mandate education on the Holocaust. But again, you need specialized teachers, you need time, you need funding, etc.

To me, Holocaust is not so much about Jews as it is to teach what hate can do. It's a vehicle. It's a platform. Recently, New York, part of the Museum of Jewish Heritage, we brought an exhibit in Auschwitz. And I argued that the title, subtitle of that exhibit should be, See What Hate Can Do. see what hate can do. The Holocaust needs to be a lesson, a universal lesson, of unchecked hatred can eventually lead to an Auschwitz. I'm not sure we've done that very successfully. On the other hand, there are more books and more films written about the Holocaust 70 years later than we ever could have imagined. I sat on the council that decided on the U.S. Holocaust

Memorial Museum in Washington. And I remember we agonized. Listen, we're going to build this museum in Washington. And after the Jews come, nobody will come. And it will be an insult to the victims. How wrong we were. The U.S. Holocaust Museum in Washington until recently was number two. Now it's number three after the African-American. So, again, the other side of the picture is thousands of Americans are coming to go and understand and learn. We have to make sure that we focus on the lesson is the Holocaust and the genocide of Jews shows you and teaches you what uncontrolled hate can lead to. That's a universal lesson based on Jewish history. Semitism, but at your time at ADL, you have been a champion of historically marginalized groups and standing up for them, immigrants, the LBGTQ community. How did that happen? That as a Holocaust survivor, you looked at other groups and you said, I'm going to stand up and speak

out in favor of them. Jay, the ADL mission when I was there was to fight the defamation of the Jewish people and to secure equal rights for all. You can't have one without the other. You can't have rights for one group and not have rights for the other. Chances are bigots today hate one, tomorrow hate another. So it's all linked. It's all linked. And a struggle to fight anti-Semitism is the same struggle to fight bigotry against any group that's singled out because who they are, what they are, what they believe, what they look like, what their sexual orientation is. So I always saw it as part and parcel of our struggle for equality.

And if we didn't fight for other people's rights, then our equality would be meaningless if and when we achieved it. So it was never a question of debate, discussion. It was always there. If you strengthen the rights of one group, you at the same time strengthen the rights of other groups. But you also have to be ready to stand up for them. And we did. It's an excellent point. And I just want to end with 50 years working at the ADL, being a champion of combating anti-Semitism, hate. Is there something that you're most proud of? I know that's a really difficult question to ask someone with such a long and varied career, but is there something that stands out to you?

No. You know, it's interesting, but when we had our 100th anniversary, people asked that question, not about me, but what's in the history of the ADL, though? If you had to find one significant thing that you guys did that had the greatest impact on hate, what would it be? And so, yeah, I came up with one. I wasn't there. But I think if you're looking for one thing, and that is we pioneered, we wrote, we drafted anti-mask legislation. This was in the heyday of the Klan.

And the Klan was active. And what you had was bigots who during the day were lawyers, doctors, Indian chiefs, whatever, members of society who had not covered their head with a hood and acted out their racism and their bigotry. So we passed a law called the anti-mask law, which basically said, you can be a bigot, you can say whatever you want, but you must take responsibility for it. And it removed the mask from bigots, and therefore removed the mask from the Klan. It couldn't march in the streets with hoods, it couldn't meet, etc., etc. It was the one single act that was the thing that destroyed the Klan. Because if these people could no longer

hide their identity, which could affect their jobs, their welfare, whatever, all of a sudden they weren't bigots. I think that was the most significant. Ironically, 50 years later comes the internet and puts that hood back on the bigot. So today, the bigot can operate internationally anonymously. It sort of sets it back. I don't think any of us can point to one thing. You know, there are times there was great satisfaction in communicating with somebody, having somebody understand that they're bigots,

sometimes even trying to rehabilitate somebody. So on a personal level, there were a lot of those things. But in its totality, thank God there is an ADL. There was an ADL. There's American Jewish Congress, Bernie Youth Committee. Thank God that the Jewish community understood that it needs to organize to fight bigotry, not only for itself, but for Americans all. Eve, I want to thank you so much. It's been an honor speaking to you. I learned a lot. So thank you so much. And I wish you good health. Stay safe. See you soon. Thank you. All Inclusive is a production of the Ruderman Family Foundation.

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