All About Change - Jason Collins - First Out: Being Openly Gay in a Major Team Sport

Episode Date: June 10, 2024

In 2013, Jason Collins made history. On top of his storied basketball career, he was the first male player of any major American team sport to come out as gay. Jason was well-known for his leadership on and off the court. That reputation stands strong even after he retired from the league. Today, Jason is a steadfast advocate for the LGBTQ community.    Jason sat down with host Jay Ruderman to talk about coming to terms with his sexuality, his coming out journey, and the roles allies can play.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Can you hear me now? I'm Dr. Laurie Santos, and I'm devoting the new season of my podcast, The Happiness Lab, to topics that are dear to my heart, with people dear to my heart, like my mom. Wait a minute, let me put the TV off. I'll be finding out why I personally struggle so badly with perfectionism, stress, and even sitting still and doing nothing. But I feel like I'm bad at boredom because you're bad at boredom. Yeah, no, I didn't do well with doing nothing.

And once I find out why these things affect me so badly, I'm hoping to do something about it. So join me on my journey, wherever you get your podcasts. That was sort of like the last nail in the coffin of like, I'm doing this. Like I'm adding my voice to all the other athletes who are speaking up on behalf of the LGBTQ community. But there were those family members that I had who said,

Jason, do you need to come out publicly? Can you just live your life, but know that we know we love you, but you don't necessarily need to talk about it. And I said to them, that's not who you raised me to be. Hi, I'm Jay Ruderman and welcome to All About Change, a podcast showcasing individuals who leverage the hardships that have been thrown at them to better other people's lives.

I say put mental health first because if you don't make it, this generation of America has already had enough. I stand before you not as an expert but as a concerned citizen. but as a concerned citizen. Yes we can! Yes we can! Jason Collins spent 13 years playing in the NBA. During his career on the court, he earned a reputation for being a team player who knew when to step out of the spotlight for the good of his team. But that reputation came at a price. I tried to be the good son,, tried to be the people pleaser.

What I eventually became was one of those people who was a glue guy, someone on the team who did whatever it took to make sure the team was going in the right direction and also in real life, sacrificing my own, I'll call it happiness. From a young age, Jason knew he was different and he knew that to achieve his goals, he'd have to hide his true self. That summer, that was when my Uncle Mark came out. And then it was like, oh, that's what I am. And then also to hear the reaction of some of the family members with his coming out and thinking to myself, is this how they're gonna talk about me?

Jason publicly came out as gay in 2013, the first active male player in any major American team sport to do so. He realized that to be a truly great leader, he had to be the change he wanted to see on and off the court. How can I help make the path easier for someone else or a family member for their next generation so that they don't have to struggle?

Jason took a risk and did something that could have tarnished his reputation on the court. But by speaking out, he learned that what set him apart was actually one of his biggest strengths. that what set him apart was actually one of his biggest strengths. So Jason Collins, thank you so much for joining me as my guest on All About Change. I really look forward to our conversation today. Thank you for having me. Your childhood growing up, when did you start playing basketball and who introduced you to the sport? My parents grew up in Los Angeles, California, suburb, the valley, San Fernando Valley, and I have a twin

brother. Our parents were only expecting one child. We were born in the 70s where this could still happen and I was born first and the nurse said to the doctor there's one more in there. It's my parents, so they go into full panic mode. And our parents, you know, raising two giant twin babies, were trying to keep us active and out of the house, and you know, so that we wouldn't eat up all the food, just like go play sports. So we played every single sport growing up,

and we were first introduced to basketball through one of our neighbors up the street who had a hoop in his driveway. We would go play basketball at his house and then eventually the three of us joined the Granada Hills Recreation Park Basketball League and that was the first time that we played the sport. You both went to a very prestigious high school and a prestigious college. Where did you learn your skills? Where did you hone your skills? Throughout Los Angeles, everywhere. We wouldn't be where we are without the support of our family, in particular,

our parents driving us all over Southern California to play against. And then also as we got older nationally, against the best competition. I'll never forget being 12 years old and going and playing pickup basketball with my dad and against grown men and getting beat up. And it's one of those life lessons that if you want to improve,

you have to play against people who are better than you, who are gonna be stronger than you. I tell this to my nieces and nephews all the time, yes, you're gonna get beat up in that moment, but when you go back to normal playing competition, it's gonna be so much easier, because you're already used to playing against people who are bigger, faster, stronger. With regards to challenging ourselves,

not just, it wasn with regards to challenging ourselves. It wasn't just about the athletics. And as you said, we did go to some pretty prestigious schools. We went to Harvard-Westlake High School, one of the best high schools in Los Angeles area, and then obviously Stanford University. I remember being in eighth grade and going to a summer basketball camp, and the speaker talked about how because of basketball, he was able to travel the world, he was able to get free education.

And as I mentioned, we played every single sport up until that point and we went to our parents and said, we want to get a Division I scholarship, like that's our goal. And our parents said, that's great because it was going to be very difficult for them to put us financially through college on their own. But they said, okay, that's great that you want to earn a Division I scholarship, but put yourself in a position where you can pick and choose what school you want to go to, which means you have to have the talent on the court, but then also you have to have the grades in the classroom.

And you have to work extremely hard, challenge yourself to know that people are going to use your talent. And then you use this sport to put yourself in a position that'll benefit you for the rest of your life. And that's what we did. So it sounds like your parents were pretty special in, in raising you guys as well-rounded people and not just focusing on a hundred percent basketball. Definitely. When did you decide that you wanted to be professional?

Who were you looking up to at the time? Who were you, who were your sports heroes? Growing up in Los Angeles with the Showtime Lakers. I mean, it's Magic Johnson, Cream, Abdul Jabbar, it's Michael Cooper. It's that team, Pat Riley, the coach, the whole Showtime era. And our parents were able to get season tickets along with another family. So you see AC Green and Byron Scott. So yeah, I grew up around that and like in seeing those players being able as a 12 year

old to interact with NBA players and like, yeah, that's what I want to do. And also, you know, our family is big into, you know, having goals and, like, long-term goals, short-term goals. So I was just always looking up to Magic Johnson, in particular, because I was a center, a guy named Hakim Olajuwon, who used to play for the Houston Rocker team. Sure.

And then there was someone else, a professional athlete, that I did idolize and look up to, but I never publicly talked about that until after I came out, and that was Martina Neratilova. I was a huge fan of tennis. I've always been, you can see even right now, these wooden tennis trackers here on the wall, but I was looking for someone who was out and still able to kick butt athletically and that for me was Martina Navratilova. Martina Navratilova is a tennis icon

who won a record 59 Grand Slam titles. She came out more than 30 years ago in a very different time. Martina, let me start with you. We've been long asking the question, when would a man playing a major professional US sport come out and say, I'm gay? We now know the answer to that.

So the next question is, what's the impact? Well, I think the impact is immediate because we're talking about it. It's an everyday word now. We don't have to hide. And for Jason, I think it's gonna make a big difference in his life. Of course it already has, but most of all,

he will sleep better at night. Jason, at what age did you think that you may be gay? Oh, definitely junior high school. Okay. Definitely that was when I started having crushes and feelings that were different than my teammates. Especially when, you know, you're around your teammates in the locker room or just, you know, you hear your friends, you know, talking about the different crushes that they have.

And I'm thinking to myself, I have different feelings. And that was in junior high school. So that's like 13, 14, 15. At age 16, I realized what it was because my uncle came out. And for a month out of every summer, we would spend time in upstate New York with my dad's family.

And I remember that summer, that was when my uncle Mark came out. And then it was like, oh, that's what I am. And then also to hear the reaction of some of the family members with his coming out and thinking to myself, is this how they're going to talk about me? I just did not wanna accept it. And I know I describe it as telling myself a lie over and over again that, yes, I know that the sky is blue, but I just tell myself the sky is red,

and just trying to believe a lie, even though I know it's a lie kind of thing. I mean, you were a teenager, which is difficult enough. Yes. But you're keeping all of this internal, you're not sharing your feelings with anyone, even family members. That must have been tough. It was very difficult.

And then also, in the back of my mind, I'm like praying, hoping that it will change, that like I'll start developing feelings and like the rest of my friends and teammates have. I keep trying like to date women and like, and see, and that opening up and actually saying the words to another human being, that didn't happen for me till I was around 32 years old, 32, 33 years old. So it was a very long process of coming to terms

and accepting who I am. For me, basketball was always my outlet. It was always the elephant in the room, of coming to terms and accepting who I am. For me, basketball was always my outlet. It was always the elephant in the room as far as, like, I'll deal with that later, I'll deal with that later, I'll come to terms with that later. Right now, I'm just gonna focus on my job, focus on my sport, and do everything I can to just,

that's the focus, that's the priority, and that's obviously not a healthy way to process what's going on in my life, but at the same time, it's how I dealt with it. But at the same time, you had a very close family. Yeah. I'm curious as to like the values that you were raised with and what were the perceptions of the LGBTQ plus community when you were raised with and what were the perceptions of the LBGTQ plus community when you were growing up?

Well, I'll say thank God for my uncle Mark because he really took a lot of hits with certain family members. And there are times when members of the community will step forward and it takes some family members some time to adjust. Some time to get over their own fear, get over their own prejudices. And also in my family, we grew up very religious, as most African-American families. The matriarch of our family, my mom's mom, she came from upstate Louisiana, very rural, met her husband like almost out of high school. He served in World War II

after the war came back and got his bride and was like, let's get out of Louisiana and move the family to California. Growing up in the deep south with the under Jim Crow laws and blatant with under Jim Crow laws and blatant racial discrimination, they always saw education as a way to climb the social ladder. So that was a part of the reason why through religion and then also through education, we were very disciplined. We were very focused. And then obviously I tried to be the good son,

tried to be the people pleaser, tried to be the person who I really didn't set boundaries with my family members. I would always try to be a glue. And I guess that was in basketball. What I eventually became was one of those people who was a glue guy, someone on the team who did whatever it took to make sure the team was going in the right direction. And oftentimes sacrificing my game, my whatever, and then also in real life, sacrificing my own, I'll call it, happiness.

I want to bring you back to basketball. When you were at Stanford, talk about your time there. What were some of the highlights both on and off the court? The highlights were definitely obviously going to a Final Four my freshman year, achieving the number one overall ranking, playing against Duke. So that Final Four my freshman year, I had two knee surgeries and I wasn't able to play. So I had to learn how to,

how can I still support the team without playing? Learning how to deal with adversity, overcome injuries like the challenge of, am I still gonna achieve my goal of playing in the NBA after dealing with these? But then also meeting new people. And my roommate just happened to get a perfect score on the SAT.

And he was just, actually he's from Boston, Jeff Cooper, but he was one of those people who would go on of course to get a PhD. Meeting new people who are going to go on and do incredible things. Chelsea Clinton, a classmate, and I remember the first time I met her at a party, I go up and introduce myself and just, she was just down to earth. And I just remember introducing, hi, I'm Jason Collins. I'm Jason Collins she's like oh hi I'm Chelsea Clinton in the back of my mind I'm like yeah I know but like this down to earth and just you know and then becoming you know friends with her and becoming friends with her

parents and so it wasn't just about basketball it was about you know the friendships that you meet and then also the classes the class that you meet, and then also the classes. The class that I got the most out of was a class called group communication. This class has helped me throughout my life. You walk into a room with about 40 people, you put your books on the side, you sit in a circle, and then you say, okay, we're gonna talk

in the group setting, but then also have little breakout groups. And in these conversations, we're going to talk in the group setting, but then also have little breakout groups. And in these conversations, we're going to talk about issues that usually divide us as people and see how can we find common threads, whether it's race, religion, socioeconomic, gender, sexual orientation. And I learned so much about so many different people and people that might not look like me, might not have the same background as me, but always there's something that connects

us in our humanity, finding those common threads. And throughout my life, throughout my travels, I always try to find common threads, even with some people that I might not get along with. I was like, there has to be something that connects us. When you truly have that understanding and that communication, it just strengthens our bonds in our communities. Despite these injuries, you were able to have

a 13-year career in the NBA, which is impressive since most of your teammates probably did not go on to the NBA. Yeah. And you played for different teams, but what are you most proud of during your career in the NBA? What stands out as a highlight? Most proud of is definitely coming out publicly and being able to play and make history.

But besides that, I think it's being a good teammate because there are some very talented basketball players Not everybody is going to be able to shoot the ball But you have to find a way to help your team win games and that was my role was okay I'm gonna set screens. I'm gonna dive on the floor. I'm gonna hustle communicate. I'm gonna know the game plan the strategy I'm gonna use my voice out there on the court I played against so many players who were far superior athletically, but this is how I beat them. It's just preparation and using my brain and being in position to take away their strengths

and make them beat me. I didn't want attention. Obviously, attention would come, but especially when I was in the closet, reporters and the casual NBA fan will always flock to whoever the leading scorer is. So I never wanted that media attention, especially when you're a professional athlete and you're over age 30 and you're not married. People are like, hmm, what's going on there? I didn't want those questions. I was like, okay, how can I help my team win but without scoring the basketball or not

scoring too much? I try not to have regrets, but I do, I wish I didn't have to do that. That didn't feel that I had to do that. Yeah. So I wanted to ask you during those 13 years before the end, what was the culture like in the NBA regarding attitudes towards the LGBTQ plus community? So when I first entered the NBA, it was 2001.

Our society was different then. I remember watching an interview, big name player, and he used a homophobic slur in his interview. That was from like 2001 to 2007. Like that was acceptable. Now the changing point, I think, was in around 2008, or 2007, 2008, there was an NBA player, John Amici, who came out.

And this was sort of the game plan for male athletes, was that you wait a couple years after you retired and then you come out publicly. But I remember when he came out that I started to notice a shift because there was another former NBA player who made some very homophobic comments about John, and he was met with a lot of backlash for making those homophobic comments. So I was like, yes, that's... And then also the NBA league office under our former commissioner, David Stern, they started fining people for using homophobic comments.

And the minimum fine at that time was $50,000. Kobe Bryant was recently fined $100,000 for using a gay slur after a referee called a technical foul on him. But when Kobe Bryant was fined for using homophobic language, the message that that sent was that if Kobe can get fined, anybody can get fined. And to Kobe's credit, he apologized for his comments and what he said, accepted the penalty. And then there were a few other players over time who you have to be consistent with the fine. You have to be consistent with holding people accountable when they mess

up. People are going to make mistakes, but there has to be that accountability in the league office. So when I noticed that, I was like, okay, things are changing kind of thing. And then also obviously in male sports, even from like elementary school to junior high school, high school, you're taught, okay, especially in contact sports, how can I attack this other male athlete?

And a lot of ways that you attack them verbally is by using sexist language and homophobic language. And a lot of times the guys aren't understanding the impact of those words. Because some of the people who I heard using homophobic language were some of my biggest supporters. And it's because there's a disconnect. A lot of education needs to continue to happen. I want to take you to 2013.

Before you publicly came out, talk about your conversations privately with family and friends and how did they react to your desire to come out publicly? The private coming out started in 2011, November 2011, Thanksgiving. And the holidays were always the toughest for me because I was surrounded by people who I love, but I didn't know would they truly love me if I stepped out and said, you know, this is who I love, but I didn't know would they truly love me if I stepped up and said, this is who I am.

And we also were dealing with the NBA lockout. So I didn't have my outlet, I didn't have basketball. So I came out in November, the Saturday after Thanksgiving 2011 to my friend and then came out to family members and then lockout ends. I'm playing for the Atlanta Hawks. After that season is over, so in April, May, I'm starting to come out to other family members,

close friends that I have, to the point where I signed that off season with the Boston Celtics, 2012. I'm living in Boston, having a great time. I have a lot of friends, especially from Stanford, who are now living in a great time. I have a lot of friends, especially from Stanford, who are now living in the Boston area. I have a great support system. I got traded in February 2013 to the Washington Wizards. And then going to the Washington Wizards to a new city, I got tired of telling the... It's like going to a new job. Your

coworkers ask you, Oh, where are you from? Are you married? Are you single? Are you dating anyone? I just got tired of telling the lie. And at that point, I'd already come out to so many of my, I guess, my inner network, my support system. And I never had a doubt or a worry that my secret would get out because that's the kind of people that I keep in my life is people who truly have my back. Now we're getting to where, okay, I'm gonna come out publicly.

I called my agent, Arne Tellam, and I said, hey, Arne, we gotta talk. And I said, Arne, I'm gay. My family and close friends already know, but I am tired of telling this lie, and I want to come out publicly. How do we do this? Do we do this right now?

Because at that point, there's about another month and a half to go in the season, playing for a new team, Washington Wizards. Or do we wait until the season's over and then we, you know, come out publicly? And Arne, I couldn't have done this without Arne. He truly was the quarterback of my coming out process. He said, let me think about this.

Let me come up with a plan, but I want you to know that I love you, and I support you, and we're going to do this, and we're going to do this right. So that happened in February 2013. And the beginning of March was when Doma and Prop 8 were being argued at the Supreme Court. And here I was playing for the Washington Wizards. I actually lived in Judiciary Square in D.C. area. And it killed me to stay quiet. But at that point, we'd already agreed. We reached the game that I was going to wait until the season was over to come out publicly. But that was sort of like the last nail in the coffin of like, I'm doing this.

Like I'm adding my voice to Billie Jean King, Martina Navratilova, to all the other athletes who are speaking up on behalf of the LGBTQ plus community. But there were those family members that I had who said, Jason, do you need to come out publicly? Do you need to disclose this? Can you just live your life, but know that we know we love you, but you don't necessarily need to talk about it.

And I said to them, that's not who you raised me to be. You raised me to be proud of who I am, to celebrate everything that makes me who I am. And I reminded them of an opportunity that was missed when I was in high school. When I went to high school at Harvard West, one of our famous alums was Sally Ride, the first female American astronaut. And I was on the welcoming committee because I took women's studies. We didn't have LGBTQ studies back then, but I took women's studies and I was one of the few men in the class.

And so I got to be on the welcoming committee for her and I got to meet her and interact. And she gave a great speech about, you know, reaching stars. And it was just, you know, but especially when I was in that time of looking for like heroes, LGBTQ people who were out. And I understand that choice of non-disclosure, but there was an opportunity that was missed for me, meeting her. And I didn't want that to repeat, that cycle to

repeat where I'm interacting with someone and they don't know that you two can reach your goals and dreams and be out in public because I didn't find out that she was a lesbian until her obituary. A lot of the people didn't find out that she was a lesbian until her obituary. and I said that's And I reminded my family members that is not going to be me. So that's why I'm coming out publicly Jason Collins getting ready to check into this game for Brooklyn at the scores table You can begin to hear a little bit of a buzz in the crowd as

Collins gets ready. Here it is. The net number forty six Jason Collins. You hear the applause, a historic moment at Staples Center as Jason Collins becomes the first openly gay athlete to play in any of this country's four major professional sports. When you came out, it was on the front cover of Sports Illustrated. You were the first athlete in one of the major sports, NBA, NFL, NHL, MLB. When did you realize that that was the right thing to do? I know you work with your agent, but you knew that you were going to be making history.

Watching those Supreme Court cases, I knew that this is what I was going to do. To those other family members, I knew that this is what I was going to do. This was like to those other family members, I was like, this is happening. Get on the bus. We're doing this. I knew that it was going to be a big story because there was a rumor the summer before that four NFL players were going to come out publicly and then that never happened. I knew that I was going to be the first, you know,

male athlete. Mind you, women have been doing this for decades, like Billie Jean King, Martina Arturova, and I couldn't have done what I did without them. So I have to give them their flowers for making the path easier for me. But at the same time, I also remember watching the movie Moneyball with Brad Pitt.

And there was that famous scene where he's like, the first person through the wall usually gets bloodied. And I was mentally preparing myself for whatever. Like I didn't know what obviously what was gonna happen, but I had a lot of people who I had those conversations with who I wanted them to hear it from me first before seeing it on Sports Illustrated.

And one of those people to give me some great advice was President Clinton and also Secretary Clinton. Bill in particular said to me, and he knows obviously a little bit about being in the eye of the public store. He gave me a great piece of advice. He said, Jason, if it ever gets to feel like it's too much, like it's too much, what I want you to do is close your eyes, take a deep breath, open your eyes, and keep moving forward. It's a great like calming centering thing, but

it definitely helped me because on the day that the story came out that Monday, I got back-to-back calls from Oprah Winfrey and President Barack Obama. Just to name a few. Yeah, it was pretty cool. And there were a lot of things that were offered to me. And the game plan was we're going to keep it in the realm of basketball, sports entertainment.

We did our interviews. We were very strategic about who we granted interviews to. Obviously, Oprah was with the family, so you don't say no to Oprah. But as far as everything else, it was usually with ESPN, Disney, somewhere ABC, because that's who the NBA had their contract with. But as far as like everything else, like I wasn't gonna have like a documentary crew following me around or anything like that.

It was me training, working hard, being the best possible shape of my life. I was a free agent. And if I got an opportunity to get back into the NBA, whether it be a workout or just an interview, I had to be ready. And I was training so hard. But in July 2013, when free agency started, and for a veteran big man, someone like me

would usually get signed in late August, beginning of September. And to see people who were being signed to teams who I knew that I was better than, that hurt. But also it was like, okay, we're going to use this as fuel. who were being signed to teams who I knew that I was better than that hurt but also it was like okay we're gonna use this as fuel all of this is out of my control what I can control is how hard I work how hard I train so that when I do and have the faith that I will get one opportunity I just have to be ready for it I only got one opportunity and that was with the Nets. And that didn't happen until February of 2014, where I had a workout with

them during All-Star break of 2014. So I wanted to ask you, when you came out and the story was published, how did your former teammates respond to you? My former teammates, it was great. One was with Jerry Stackhouse and the other was with Darren Williams, who was a teammate of my brother's. But great guys who I got to know, nothing but words of support. And I thought to myself, again, I didn't know what to think,

but also hearing those two guys and their words of support and their words of like, you know, I know how hard you work, how hard you train. I know that you're a good teammate and you know, wishing me best of luck with what, you know, was about to happen. And then seeing more and more of my former teammates, whether it's Paul Pierce with the Celtics to Jason Kidd to, and then some of my playing competitors, Steve Nash and Kobe Bryant putting out tweets of support. And it was really cool to see my NBA and WNBA family all step up and be there.

Not to say that everybody was on board, because there's always going to be those people who quote unquote are the haters. When I was playing for the Celtics, at that point, I had come out privately to some family members and to some friends and I had to pick a jersey number, a new jersey number. I couldn't pick my normal 34 because I was Paul Pierce and a lot of the other jersey numbers that I was thinking of, they were all retired because there have been so many great Celtic legends. So I started thinking to myself, is there a Jersey number where I could sort of hide in plain sight?

Like, is there a number that is significant to the LGBTQ community, to me as a gay black man playing in the NBA? And it was like, okay, the year 1998, I was a sophomore in college, and that was the year that Matthew Shepard was killed. And then also the year that the I was a sophomore in college and that was the year that Matthew Shepard was killed and then also the year that the Trevor Project was founded. So a year that is significant for our community. So I chose jersey number 98. So when I got back into the NBA playing for the Brooklyn Nets in 2014, after the game, I was able to meet with Dennis and Judy and Logan Shepherd, Matthew's parents and his brother.

Just in a small little locker room after the game, I gave them the jersey that I was wearing for that game. Just getting to know them over the years. She had some great pieces of it. She's like, Jason, let the haters hate. You just keep living your life. You thrive. If you feel like you have to respond to every single hater, it can turn into a

game of like whack a mole, like where like you respond to this one over here. Here's another one popping up over here. And that's just wasting energy. And especially as you get older, you only have so much energy. And the best revenge honestly, for those haters is youth thriving in life. So with regards to some of the people in the NBA who maybe weren't supportive, it didn't matter like that. I have the love and support of my friends and family.

I have the acceptance of, you know, hell, Kobe Bryant. You see that? Like I just said, Paul Peer, you know, Jerry Stout, like the list goes on of like my former teammates. And then getting back in the NBA, playing for the Brooklyn Nets, flying from one city to another. I remember I was sitting across from Kevin Garnett, who was the team leader and one of the most outspoken players in the NBA.

And I remember him tapping him on my shoulder and I took off my headphones and I said hey what's going on Ticket and his nickname was Ticket and he's like hey I just want you to know how proud I am of you and I'm just so happy they know this is big and just you know I'm glad you're back in the NBA I'm glad you're my teammate and so for him to go out of his way to say that to me Completely put me at ease because I know that like if Kevin Garnett says I'm cool Nobody's telling like I

Dare anyone to like you're not challenging me with it But if I got Kevin Garnett on my side, like that's just it's just not happening like to those allies out there Who might you might be listening? Use your words like try, you know create that environment because you never know. Like, it's not that I needed that, but it put me, you know, totally at ease, like, okay, like I'm fine now. Like this is good. So like, please be verbal with your support, be vocal with your support, with your words, with your allyship.

And, and I understand that your Jersey is now hanging in the Smithsonian. It is. Which is so neat. That was cool. So Jason, I just have a few more questions for you. First of all, do you think the conversation in sports about LBGTQ plus players has changed in time since you've been out of the NBA? I think it continues to change for more and more female athletes in particular.

I remember Elena De La Don, a former MVP of the WNBA. I remember she came out right before the 2016 Rio Olympics and everyone was like, okay, cool, go win a gold medal. So like that's sort of like the response that, you know, we're still working towards, because I guarantee you if a major league baseball player came out tomorrow, there would be a big media thing. But then eventually I hope that athlete would realize and also the media that, okay, it'll go back to which is what it always should be when you're in professional sports. Okay. How's the team doing? How's your performance doing? How's, you know, and that's always going to be there

for professional athletes. And I also say to those male athletes who are thinking about this, A, obviously you have to have a support system, you know, strong team, but then also the feeling of after your game is over and you've just gone out there and bled for your team and going to the family room

where everybody else's significant other is and seeing your boyfriend there alongside everybody else's and not feeling like you have to hide that, you just, you know, scoop them up, you know, get in the car and, you know, go complain about the coach or the refs or something on the way back home. But just like that's like how normal that in like in that the energy that it takes to sort of hide and walk around with a filter

and feel like that is just you're wasting energy, it's negative energy and like not having that. Especially in that last year playing with it with the Brooklyn Lats in 2014, and obviously history making, but I had closer relationships with my coaches, with my teammates to the point where, we're playing against the Miami Heat, and on one of the days off, an assistant coach and one of my teammates, we're going to do a hot yoga session together. Like we're doing like, you know,

but that would never have happened when I was in the closet, but you're forming more authentic connections with your teammates, with your coaches, with your, with your coworkers. And it's just, life is just so much better when you're having those real connections with people. Yeah. That's great advice. What's your take on all this wave of anti-LBGTQ legislation that's been,

you know, in different states coming about? Well, I think it's not just anti-LGBTQ. It's almost anti-women, anti-immigrant, anti-… And it really is about civil rights. And I remember having a conversation. I got to meet the late, great Congressman John Lewis. And he said that the path for civil rights, it's a marathon. It's not like when you achieve something and you think,

okay, like, pace closed, we've achieved this and like we can go on to the next thing. And it's like, no, because just as hard as you're working to achieve something, there is someone on the other side who is thinking, how can I get that repealed? How can I get that repealed? How can I get that taken away from them? I don't know what's in someone's soul that makes them think that how can I take away someone else's civil rights? But there are people like that,

that exist. Let's not be naive or blind to this. But it's constant, which is why you need the energy of the youth, but you need those people who have the experience, who've sort of been there before to also guide them. And those great leaders like John Lewis, who have been there, and just having those conversations about like, how can I help make the path easier for someone else, or a family member for the next generation so that they don't have to struggle or work. And unfortunately, obviously in our country and around the world, we're seeing a lot of steps going backwards. It is frustrating to see,

but also you can't let it discourage you. You have to know, okay, we're on the right side of history here, fighting for civil rights. I know, and deep in my soul, me fighting for civil rights, expanding and finding community of like-minded individuals that we're doing the right thing. So how do we continue to build on this? Like, how do we not get discouraged? How do we also organize game plan, you know, goes back to, you know, sports, coming up with a plan? Like, how do we and the most important thing also, and I'll say this to the listeners also, is voting. You have to vote.

You have to vote your values and what kind of world you want to live in, what kind of world you want to live in, what kind of world you see. And I remember when I was campaigning, you know, going around being a surrogate in 2016 for the Hillary Clinton campaign and trying to talk to college students, trying to get them to register to vote and a lot of them, oh, it doesn't matter. And it's like, there could be, and as it was, it was a three Supreme Court seats that were open. So you have to vote. Even if you're frustrated with one candidate or one

person, like in which candidate's world do you want to operate under? Right. I think like John Lewis said, it is a marathon and it doesn't end. Jason, thank you so much for your leadership. I've really enjoyed talking to you and thank you for being my guest on All About Change. Thank you, appreciate it. Jason Collins' journey highlights the importance of both visibility and representation. Throughout his life, he has worked to find common threads to connect with others. It turns out that our differences, as well as what we have in common, is what gives our communities their strength. That's it for today's episode. Join us two weeks from today for my talk with animal advocate Lee Asher. Today's episode was produced by Rebecca Shasson with story editing by Yochai Meytal and Mijon

Zulu. Check out more episodes or to learn more about the show, you can visit our website allaboutchangepodcast.com. If you like our show, spread the word, tell a friend or family member, or leave us a review on your favorite podcasting app. We'd really appreciate it. All About Change is produced by the Ruderman Family Foundation

in partnership with Pod People. That's all for now. I'm Jay Ruderman, and we'll see you next time on All About Change.