All About Change - Kevin Love – Professional Basketball Star, Mental Health Advocate, & Founder of the Kevin Love Fund

Episode Date: April 11, 2022

Kevin Love is an NBA player for the Cleveland Cavaliers. A five-time All-Star, he was an integral part of the 2016 Cavaliers team that won the NBA championship against the favored Golden State Warriors. But you may have heard of Kevin from his 2018 Players’ Tribune essay titled “Everyone is Going Through Something”, which detailed a very public panic attack he had in the middle of a game. In the aftermath of that moment, Kevin became a leading figure in the conversation about mental health among athletes.   Listen to the latest episode of All Inclusive as Jay and Kevin get candid about mental health and discuss how his panic attack changed his life - leading to him establish the Kevin Love Fund - and how he stays mentally fit while inspiring others to do the same.  To learn more about the Kevin Love Fund, click here.  Please find a transcription of this episode here.  Photo credit: Derek Kettela See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Ready? Hi, I'm Jay Ruderman, and welcome to the All-Inclusive Podcast. Stories of activism, change, and courage. This is all wrong. I say put mental health first because if you don't... This generation of Americans has already had enough. I stand before you not as an expert, but as a concerned citizen. Each episode, we bring you in-depth and intimate conversations with inspiring individuals trying to change the world.

I always had a place to escape or a place to go hide or a place to try and compartmentalize, but this was something that was unraveling in front of 23,000 people. And today on our show, Kevin Love. Basketball has always been my very healthy escape to combat any anxiety or dark periods or months within my life. And if that's taken away from me, what else do I have? Kevin Love is an American professional basketball player for the Cleveland Cavaliers. A five-time All-Star, he was an integral piece of the 2016 Cavaliers team that won the NBA championship

against the favored Golden State Warriors. The son of a former NBA player Stan Love and the nephew of Mike Love from the Beach Boys, Kevin grew up in Lake Oswego, Oregon, and became the first player in NBA history to record 2,000 points, 900 rebounds, and 100 three-pointers in a single season. But you may have heard of Kevin from an essay he wrote in the Players' Tribune in March of 2018 about his struggles with mental health, detailing a recent experience of having a panic attack in the middle of a game. This was something that has been a constant, I would say, since really my early teens, and something that I never really looked in the mirror and said,

OK, this is something you have to deal with, until it happened at a very public setting in front of, you know, tens of thousands of people. In the aftermath of that moment, Kevin became one of the leading figures in America's conversation about mental health among athletes. A few months after the publication of that essay, Kevin established the Kevin Love Fund, a nonprofit that aims to break the stigma around mental health and give young people the tools and support they need to thrive. In the past years, while still being an active NBA player for the Cavaliers, Kevin Love has been devoting much of his spare time and energy to helping others and promoting education and awareness in the field of mental health.

Hey, you know, it could be you, could be a family member, could be, you know, your kid, brother, sister, whatever it may be. Somebody very likely is going to go through a very, very tough time within their life. And you're going to be better equipped if you're educated on this stuff and continue to pay for it. Kevin Love, thank you so much for becoming our guest on All Inclusive and welcome. It's a pleasure to have you here. I appreciate you having me, Jay. So Kevin, take us back to that moment that you're kind of famous for on November 5th,

in the middle of the game against the Hawks when you disappeared in the locker room. Tell us what was going on at that time. Yeah, for me, it was a very public moment. Um, you know, it was November 5th of, of 2017. And, you know, there was just a number of things that weren't truly going right within my life. And that's something that I had, you know, kind of dealt with away from the limelight and always had a place to go when I'd have these moments of panic or have these moments of depression I always had a place to escape or a place to go hide or a place to

try and compartmentalize but this was something that was unraveling in front of 23,000 people. So it was a very public episode where I had to remove myself from the game after a timeout in the second half. Just ran into our locker room and thought I was having a cardiac type episode and couldn't catch my breath. I was running around trying to, you know, find something, didn't know what I was looking for and ended up, you know, just out of breath and full panic attack on the floor of our head athletic trainer. And, you know, there was a couple of teammates, assistant coaches, training staff members that had seen me, you know, kind of go through this.

So, you know, everything that transpired after the fact and everything that followed was really me trying to hide it, just live in the shadows and just try to understand, wrap my head around what my teammates are going to think if they were to find out or if other people were to find out. Would they be able to trust me? Would it affect my livelihood? Basketball has always been my very healthy escape to combat any anxiety or dark periods or months within my life. And if that's taken away from me, what else do I have? So yeah, the next several months were not too good to me. A lot got worse before it got better, but, um, you know, it wasn't until March of, of, of 2018, several months after the fact that, um, I actually told my story on the player's tribune of, of what had happened that day and kind of what I've dealt with since, um, my childhood. You know, it must've been terrifying for you. And I know I've read,

you know, that you said that you thought you were going to die and you, and you put your hand down your throat, uh, trying to, to be able to breathe. Um, but one of the things you said was most helpful is that your trainer like turned to you and said, what do you need? You know, and, and, you know, what was it like? Cause there's a lot of people that are going to listen to this who've also gone through a panic attack in different ways. How did you get through it? You know, directly after when it happened, I had gone to the Cleveland Clinic here right down the street and had pretty much, you know, checked out. They ran all the tests. Everything was all good.

So I thought to myself, well, what the hell just happened? I ran all the tests. Everything was all good. So I thought to myself, well, what the hell just happened? But I think the biggest thing that I did is I looked in the mirror and said, OK, this can't happen again. And if it does, I have to be prepared. And the only way that this is going to work is if I start doing the work actually on myself. actually on myself. And I put it so far off to the side for so long, seeing a therapist or even, you know, toying with the idea of speaking to somebody that, you know, could really give me professional help and make me take steps in the right direction and healthy steps in the right direction. You know, it's, you know, a thing that happens to so many people. And once I had shared my story on a national level and people got a hold of it, that there's just such a big community out there that that deals with these type of things, whether it be, you know, first person or somebody, I would say within arm's distance, somebody is dealing with something that you can't see. And I think that allowed me to continue to peel back the layers and expose more in order to not only help other people,

but in a healthy but yet selfish way, help myself. You talked about having depression in your past and anxiety, but never dealing with it. having depression in your past and anxiety, but never dealing with it. How did you know that you had it? I remember you talking about your brother saying you'd go into a room for a long period of time and then you'd emerge and he'd be like, okay, Kevin's back with us. But how did you get to the point of being a celebrated player in the NBA. And yet, you know, this was in your background and you hadn't dealt with it up to this point. Yeah. I mean, I think I always knew I had it. You know, with the anxiety, it was always that it's varying levels of it, but always constant, even now, a low level threat that, you know, anything or something could go wrong at any given moment.

And there's certain things that trigger that or there's experiences or, you know, being out in public that might, you know, take that to a level where, OK, I need to, you know, start putting together an exit plan here or understand, you know, how to get out of a situation that, you know, for me is going to really give me a lot of anxiety or is not fitting within my stress budget. But then with depression, there just a lot of times wasn't that much. It wasn't that much that I could even do about it. I would just find myself in constant darkness, you know, for weeks at a time, in some cases when it was really bad months at a time. You know, kind of I penned my second article in the Players' Tribune

during the pandemic where I talked about, you know, a season where I'd actually broken my right hand and I'd only played 18 games and I had kind of just shut myself into my apartment and only left for obligations related to basketball. And that was it. And became a recluse, didn't really talk to anybody, shut out my friends and family. And, you know, those are major moments in my mind that that stick out. But this was something that has been a constant, I would say, since since really my early teens and something that I never, you know, really looked in the mirror and said, okay, this is something you have to deal with

until it happened at, you know, a very, like I said, public setting in front of, you know, tens of thousands of people. Yeah. And I know you've talked about the passing of your grandmother, Carol, and how that was suppressed and yet weighing really heavily on you. I mean, I lost my grandmother years ago, Rose, and she was the closest person I was ever close to in my life. Did that lead to your panic attack or coming to a realization that, hey, there's something going on here that I haven't quite dealt with fully? For me, my grandma Carol was such a cornerstone and was and is the cornerstone of our family. She is like the essence of what I would want my future family to be like with my fiance. I mean, she was just so special, lived vicariously through each and every family member and just didn't need much. She just

wanted to love, wanted to be loved and just nurture and take care of people. Happy birthday, Kevin. I miss you so much and I don't get to see enough of you. You just make me happy and when you come home, I'm such a proud grandma. So happy birthday. But I never went through the grieving process until I started going to therapy. And I didn't realize how much that affected me in such a negative way, in such a poor way, until I started going to therapy. And actually speaking about it with, you know, my therapist and my friends and my family, because it all just came so quick. We live such fast lives

in professional sports and in the NBA games come at you so fast. And when she passed, it was, you know, right around Thanksgiving. And, you know, we were just right into the next game. I didn't even get to see her get buried. I didn't get to go to the funeral. I didn't get to spend time with my family when all that process happened. It was just the next thing. So yeah, I was playing for her

and she always loved to come to my games. She thought, you know, we had this thing that she was, you know, kind of the, you know, the lucky charm or something, if you will, of my career and every game that she came to, she had a hell of a record out there with us. But I just never allowed myself to pinpoint and say, OK, this was so great or this was so bad or anything in between and just allow myself to feel in a way that I should have, you know, over that course of time until I did it

in 2017 when I started going to therapy. Well, I'm really sorry for your loss, because I know what it is to lose someone so close to you. And I want to ask you, you mentioned, you know, when you came out in the article in the Players' Tribune, and you describe your panic attack and mental health struggles. What was your feeling right before you pressed send and you decided to go out to the world and say, hey, this is who I am? Yeah, it was scary to press send on that article because not knowing, again, how my teammates or my friends, my family, my organization, how they were going to react, what they were going to think. You know, was my livelihood going to be affected?

You know, will I be able to play after this season, next season if, you know, others are going to look at me like, oh, he can't be trusted? Or is he going to be able to play in the fourth quarter? You know, long term, is he somebody that we can rely on? So I think for me, it was, yeah, definitely very scary and a super vulnerable moment. And, you know, in a hyper masculine type of sports and, you know, growing up in that type of world my entire life. Yeah, it was definitely something that I couldn't wrap my mind around. But I just thought to myself, I'm, you know, struggling in silence. I'm really suffering in a really bad way. Like I said, it got a lot worse before it got better for me. Even, you know, after, after I exposed this, it took

me a while to, to really settle into myself and say, okay, this is just going to be a part of my life now. And people are going to know about it, but I think it was, you know, being a part, like I said earlier, big, being a part of something bigger than myself and, and, you know, fighting for, for, for other people and also paying it forward, always being a giver. For me, that allowed me to settle in, you know, to who I am and be more comfortable in my own skin and to just say, hey, listen, this is what you get. This is me. And I'm not perfect, but, you know, I'm going to continue to work on myself and I'm going to continue to try and make other people's lives better at the same time.

And despite your fears about how basketball was going to react, can you talk about the reaction? Because from what I've read, it was fairly positive that the Cavaliers were there for you, the NBA was there for you. So what was the aftermath of releasing that letter like? Yeah, I would say pretty much overwhelmingly positive, which really surprised me. A surprise move by an NBA star today. Cleveland Cavaliers Kevin Love opened up about his mental health, sharing your reaction to him opening up. I applaud his courage as well as DeMar DeRozan's courage. I read the article this morning. I thought what he said that was that meant the most to me was we're all going through something. It's true. I'm pretty sure it's going to give so many people the courage to come out and do the exact same thing.

I agree with you, Jalen. I applaud him as well. And what it does, it humanizes. I think on top of that, I had no idea because I didn't even want to take that path or go into that space to learn about all this. I didn't know what was real. I didn't know what I want, if or what or when or how. I wanted to find out certain things about anything mental health related because I just thought if I just put it over there, it's not real. And thankfully, like I said, it was definitely well received. I was able to be very authentic, use my voice and just tell the story up to that point of, you know, kind of what had happened that season, you know, within my life that year, how I was feeling, what I was going through. was going through. There's so many people that have dealt with this within their families, whether it be themselves, whether it be a brother or sister or mom or dad, grandmother, grandfather. I know certainly in my family, that is the case. And just so many of my friends that I thought I knew what they were going through. But until we had a, you know, some tough conversations, I had no idea.

And for me, that allowed me to, to feel more grounded and want to continue to work within this space, because it's become really fascinating for me. And again, it's it's been very therapeutic to understand that this is bigger than me. And yet I feel like I can have a major impact because the numbers, there's so much strength in numbers within all of this. It's a pretty amazing thing to see what we're capable of if we all just bring ourselves together for a common cause. You mentioned your friends and you've said, if it hadn't been for a couple of your closest friends, I don't know if I'd be here today telling my story. So maybe you can talk about your friends a little bit and what they were able to do for you. Yeah. I mean, I think just more than anything that it's that support

group. Within my friends and my closest friends, some of them didn't actually know everything that was going on but the the very select couple or few that that did um more than thankful for I feel like I'm indebted to um because you know there's one in particular that you know we were able to get through high school having each other and and and together because we were able to get through high school having each other and together because we were able to be sounding boards and almost like therapists for each other in that way, where if we didn't have each other, we look at each other now and said, man, going through that time was really hard. Like high school is hard. Like that 15, 16 year old freshman and sophomore year with all the stress, with all the expectation, you know, coming from every which way, as well as just having to show up and show your face in high school. You know, five days a week is is is something in itself.

five days a week is something in itself. But again, if it weren't for a select few, I truly believe that I don't know if I'd be sitting here having this conversation today. I'm sure he'll be watching this. He definitely knows that we see eye to eye on this, that we helped each other through a lot of tough times and still do. Right. And you continued in another article in Players FM, and you talked about,

you know, being in a dark place where everyone around you wants to see you doing better and do what you love and being happy and being the old you. And sometimes it feels like the world is saying, come on, man, just get it over with. What do you say to people who say, hey, listen, you're successful. You have a lot of money. How did you become depressed? Yeah, I mean, I think that was kind of what I would say to myself. People that didn't understand it or have never gone through these type of things that they would just say, oh, just get over it or just change your way of thinking. It's like, oh, yeah, I guess I didn't think of that one before. But, you know, for me, it was not an easy thing to accept, especially at this level. I think, you know,

one of the biggest moments in in my life and my story, too, was that year, actually, at the end of 2018, Anthony Bourdain was somebody who I really loved and admired. And, you know, he felt like he had the coolest job in the world and great TV show, traveled the world, felt like I traveled the world with him and had cool friends and the 2018 finals, I woke up and saw a number of text messages and, you know, you know, things that had come through my phone that, you know, Andy Bourdain had taken his life and, you know, had passed away. And I just, you know, started backtracking and thinking to myself, like, you know, there's Robin Williams, there's him, there's Kate Spade, all these names, all these very public eye, famous people, wealthy people, well-off, well-liked, well-received. And I think it was Bryan Cranston actually that said it, and he said it just goes to show you that success is not immune to depression. And he's so right by that. It doesn't discriminate.

You don't get to you don't get to chooseences and things going on in there that you can't just say, hey, listen, just change your way of thinking or, hey, just don't be like that or, hey, just, you know, find energy where you can't find it somewhere. It just just doesn't work like that. And I wish people I think that's where, you know, educating people and understanding research and eliminating is a big way to continue to eliminate the stigmas, having conversations like this, because I feel like people that have never gone through something of this caliber of this size or of this, you know, just weight that, you know, they wouldn't be able to understand it. So I think that having these conversations is,

is, is a unique way to, you know, pay it forward to those people as well, to just educate them and have them understand that, hey, you know, it could be you, it could be a family member, it could be, you know, your kid, brother, sister, whatever it may be. Somebody very likely is going to go through a very, very tough time within their life. And you're going to be better equipped

if you're educated on this stuff and continue to pay it forward. Sure. I mean, Anthony Bourdain was one of my favorites and it was a shock. Let me ask you, since you are a famous person, do you think fame is natural? Is it a natural condition that humans are set up to deal with? And how do you deal with it day to day? That's a great question. It's fine. I've never been asked that before. I don't, you know, there's obviously levels to fame and everything. But in terms of like, playing in Cleveland, living in Cleveland, it being such a town where you live through your sports teams, like you are somebody that is in the public eye. But I don't know, especially with somebody that has,

you know, acute anxiety or somebody that has maybe agoraphobia, which I certainly did in my early 20s, just going out and thinking something's going to go wrong. I'm going to get publicly embarrassed, so on and so forth. Like, I don't think that it is a natural thing and there is no real way to, you know, whether it be expose yourself to it or get a, grow accustomed to it in a, in a, in a fast way. I mean, I don't think it's maybe the healthiest way to live your life and have to, you know, have a stress response or consider these type of things when you just get in your car and you drive to wherever you need to be. So yeah, I have a little bit of trouble answering that, but that's very thought provoking. I'm going to have to give some more thought to that for sure. I want to talk about another athlete who took a lot of grief. No injury, thankfully. And

that's why I took it. Simone Biles. When she pulled out of the Olympics, a lot of people said, hey, you're a quitter. And I think that they really missed, you know, what she was going through. She talked about, you know, the twisty. she's, you know, jumping high up over a bar and, and, and doesn't know where she's going to land, whether it's on her head or on her feet. It's been really stressful, this Olympic games, I think just as a whole, it's been a long process. And she was going through something really serious, but people were giving her a lot of grief and you really spoke up about her. Maybe you want to talk about that and like, you know, your connection to other athletes who have gone through some of the similar things. I applaud Simone, who is the greatest female gymnast of all time. And yet she's like, no,

I choose myself. And the fact that she was more than willing to do that and understanding, hey, I'm budgeting this for myself, for my stress, for my health, for my family, for my teammates, for my country, and allowing myself to take a step back in order to be better in the future. I mean, full of, I mean, complete standing O applause to her to be able to do that. Cause that took a lot of strength and a lot of courage. And I don't think we've seen the impact that she has, has truly had on, on everybody. Cause it's going to be, you know, years and years and years and years of, of, of positive impact coming from just that moment alone. So for her to do that, I just think it was, I mean, just a beautiful thing. And it adds to that strength in numbers and that army that we have as, at the very least, athletes within this mental

health space that are stepping up and, you know, being, I mean, just amazing leaders. Yeah, I want to thank you for that leadership because you're sticking by other athletes who are going through similar things. But maybe, Kevin, you can talk a little bit about all the things that you've done with COA and the Kevin Love Fund to help people because, you know, you're taking an active role in trying to make our society better and help people who are going through different mental health issues. Yeah.

I mean, as I mentioned, in March of 2018, I penned that first article. And then in September, we started the Kevin Love Fund. And it still feels like it's in its infancy, yet we've been able to do so many cool things and work with so many great people. And we just have a unique blend of education, research, grant making and advocacy. It's been really special to see our curriculum come into place these last couple years and getting through our pilot program and continuing to learn, you know, where to best serve. I mentioned those 15 and 16 year olds within high school that, you know, are really going through a tough time. Their bodies are changing. Their minds are changing.

They're asked so much trying to make the sports team, trying to make the drama club, whatever it may be, there's so much coming at them that we felt that was a sweet spot. And having teachers being able to model vulnerability for these kids within the curriculum with these 14 lesson plans that they're able to share through different mediums. Not unlike me penning in the Players' Tribune that article, but you have playlists that you can make as well where you can explain what these songs mean to you and express yourself in that way. It could be photography. It could be poetry.

I mentioned journaling. There's so many different ways to express yourselves within that that is, you know, incredibly important. So we've had over a thousand students, hundreds of teachers as well gone through the curriculum. And there's going to be a lot more updates this summer coming, but it's going to be free and nationwide to everybody this summer. So we're super excited about that. But just continuing to pay it forward, like I said, and, you know, our idea is that we want to impact a billion people, you know, worldwide within the next five years. But like I mentioned, that ripple effect and just changing that one person's life is, you know, so monumentous in itself. And we just want to continue to keep doing that.

Thank you so much. And I want to ask you, you grew up in a really successful family. I mean, your dad, Stan Love, was a successful NBA player. Stan Love is in the ballgame for Baltimore. Mike Love, an uncle, formed the Beach Boys with his cousins. Mike Love, an uncle formed the Beach Boys with his cousins. What was it like growing up in a family of such high achievers? And did you feel like you were chasing some really high expectations as a kid? Yeah, no, and I definitely had a father that was tough on me on me and maybe even harder on my older brother as well. So, yeah, I do think that there was some expectation there, especially having a father who

had played in the NBA and then having a very high achieving uncle on the same love side of the family. And then there was just, you know, between, you know, the Love family and the Wilson family, there was always turmoil. I mean, that's just the truth of the matter. And I think we as kids didn't truly understand that or understand why things were, you know, why can't we see this part of the family or haven't we seen, you know, grandma or grandpa for a while? I mean, it's just those type of things kind of stick out in your head and you're able to connect the dots looking backwards. And I think you pair that with the expectation, you know, as well as just having a brain that that you feel doesn't quite work right. I think all of that is, you know, in some ways a recipe for some some pretty ugly moments.

But I'm thankful for those at the same time. And in some ways I talk about trying to achieve my way out of depression as well. I think, oh, if I just get that accolade, or if I just make this many, you know, three point shots in the NBA, or if I just make this much money, or if I have this many friends, like it's all going to go away. But, you know, come to find out if you don't do the work on yourself, you can't make it seem, you know, over there, just put it away. And what I've realized is it never truly goes away, you just change your relationship with it. So do you think that your view of masculinity has really changed over the years? And what I've realized is it never truly goes away. You just change your relationship with it. So do you think that your view of masculinity has really changed over the years? Yeah, I think the view of my myself has changed as well. I think I'm a happier person because I understand that I don't a very flawed person. I've had, you know, minor mistakes in my life that a good person and help others and be my most authentic self that I will be happier and better off and hopefully

live longer because of it. Right. So, so important. Kevin, if you'd indulge me for a second, my son is a huge basketball fan, plays on a JV team. He recorded a couple of questions for you. So if you don't mind, my producer is going to cue them up. No problem. From the time you started playing basketball as a child until today as a veteran NBA player, at what period of time did you most enjoy playing basketball? You know, it's a funny question to get actually right now because this season we, you know, we're only expected to win maybe 27 games. You know, Vegas and like these two other places, they kind of set that number.

I think it was like 26 and a half or 27 wins on the season. And right now we're sitting at 33. Now he picks the pocket of Christopher. Behind the back, Davis puts it in. The game is over. Cleveland has come to Charlotte and stolen one. And we just have such a group of amazing young players, savvy veterans, and a great coaching staff, front office.

It just feels like a college type of atmosphere I would say my senior year of high school my one year at UCLA and maybe even this year I mean this year and the the the run that we had in 2016 where we won the finals um were my favorite times playing basketball but just living for now i love going to work every single day i love you know pivoting where i'm at in my 14th season in my career coming off the bench in a six-man role and being able to lead the guys um and kind of show them the way and watch their growth within what we're doing. It's been an amazing season and a beautiful thing to watch these guys grow.

And then they like to call me Uncle or Grandpa Kevin, try to lead them and show these guys what it takes to make the next step as a team. So I think this year has given back, you know, really a lot. And I think sacrifice has a way of, of if you just, just dive into it as a way of giving back, you know, truly a lot more than it costs. Yeah. Well, you're still young because Tom Brady just retired at 44. So he might come back too. Who knows? Right. All right. Next question. How did it feel to be part of 2016 Cavaliers team that brought Cleveland their first ever NBA championship? We had a 52 year drought and the city let us know.

So we and in the fashion that we won, I don't think any team. fashion that we won I don't think any team had more fun than we did uh winning even going down 3-1 uh to the Warriors a team that had won uh 73 games that year our belief system was never toyed with never messed with we never lost sight of what was, who we are and what our identity was. And I think that taught me a really valuable lesson in that belief system, not only within myself, but within the team and within our organization as well, is that that can go really far. And it can also, you know, be a major, major agent for growth moving forward in the future. So that 2016 run was and is still truly special within my heart and changed my life forever. Probably the biggest moment in my career was winning that championship, for sure. Taken by Sp championship, for sure.

You're engaged to be married to Kate Bach, and you've called her the happiness of my life. Has love changed your life? 100%. We got set up on a blind date and she's seen me through maybe the darkest time of my life and also my happiest. So for that, I'm extremely thankful when you want to build a life with someone having gone through that and, and, you know, put equity in with each other. It's an amazing thing to, to, um, just grow within those moments and understand that you have somebody that's going to be with you ride or die, uh, for the rest of your life. So Kate is truly my best friend and, you know, somebody who, um, again, will always be by my side. Can you tell us the blind date story or is that too private? No, we had shot with the same photographer

and she wasn't dating at the time and I was newly single and I just shot with the gentleman and he said, you know what, there's somebody that I think you would like. And I said, I've never done a blind date before. But OK, sure. Why not? Let's do it. So we got a cup of coffee, which turned into about nine cups of coffee and a lot of caffeine

in midtown New York at the St. Regis. And she became my girlfriend soon thereafter that. And several years later, my fiance. And here we are. Now we're getting married this summer. Well, congratulations. I wish you many, many years of happiness together. Appreciate it.

Any thoughts about retiring? Is it too soon for that? No, I think my gray hair is misleading. And in my 14th season, I feel great within this team and really happy in Cleveland with what we've been able to do. Our three core players have been unbelievable years this year. You know, other guys having really breakout years within this team, it's been special in that way. So, yeah, that really hasn't even factored into my mind

other than what we talked about earlier with, with Brady retiring after 22 seasons. I think, uh, even LeBron said he goes a part of me kind of left with, um, uh, Tom Brady when, when, when he left. And I still think Bron has a number of years left, but I do think everybody's kind of considering their mortality when Tom Brady decides to retire. But for me, I still feel I have a lot left to give. Well, you look good. I saw the recent behind the back pass, so you look great out there. Love steps inside the line, steps behind the line, and drops it. Love finds an opening. He knocks it down. It is electric behind the back.

Osmond's open. Ha ha, yeah. The Cavaliers smile. Well, Kevin, you're wise beyond your years. I learned so much from you. And thank you so much for being my guest on All Inclusive. And I wish you a successful season. And congratulations on your upcoming marriage. I appreciate it, Jay. Thanks a lot. Take care. Appreciate you.

On March 13th, 2022, just 40 days after retiring, and a few weeks after my conversation with Kevin, Tom Brady announced he would return to the Tampa Bay Buccaneers for the 2022 season. All Inclusive is a production of the Ruderman Family Foundation. This show is produced by Yochai Meital, Jackie Schwartz, and Matt Lippman. If you enjoyed this episode, please check out all of our previous conversations. Look up All Inclusive wherever you get your podcasts. As always, if you have an idea for a guest or just want to share your thoughts, I'd love to hear from you. You can tweet me at Jay Ruderman or email us at allinclusive at rudermanfamilyfoundation.org. If you enjoy our show, please help us spread the word.

Tell a friend or family member or consider writing a review on your favorite podcasting app. That really goes a long way. I'm Jay Ruderman, and I'll catch you the next time on All Inclusive. inclusive.